In the interest of public health. Joe Biden is now saying it is becoming the pandemic of the unvaccinated. In the United States, with plenty of vaccine, the radical anti-vaxxers and Trumpsters, along with conservative state governments such as Florida, are hampering efforts to get people vaccinated. Both hospital admissions, and deaths from the virus are clearly showing, Covid is indeed becoming the pandemic of the unvaccinated.

The shambolic response to control measures in New South Wales from the pair of conservative nongs, Berejiklian and Hazzard, coupled with the shambolic vaccination program by the inept Morrison government makes compulsory vaccination almost mandatory.

By whom? Some employers would like to do it, but it is likely end up in the courts.

Government CANNOT do it. Don't worry about the US.

The Constitution was amended in a referendum in 1946 to include section 51(xxiiiA). This provision determines that the Commonwealth parliament, among others, can make laws with respect to: “the provision of … pharmaceutical, sickness and hospital benefits, medical and dental services (but not so as to authorize any form of civil conscription), benefits to students and family allowances.”

Hence, if the medical profession were directed by the Federal Government to mandatorily vaccinate people, such direction would constitute unconstitutional civil conscription.

“When Parliament comes between patient and doctor and makes the lawful continuance of their relationship as such depend upon a condition, enforceable by fine, that the doctor shall render the patient a special service, unless that service is waived by the patient, it creates a situation that amounts to a form of civil conscription.”. Justice Webb.

Accordingly, any legislation that requires medical practitioners to prescribe government-mandated medical services, such as vaccinations, constitutes a form of civil conscription that is constitutionally invalid.

The the Commonwealth parliament is not constitutionally authorised to force or compel any individual to accept vaccination or a medical procedure against his or her own will.  

The Australian Constitution explicitly prohibits any form of compulsion upon the citizens to take any form of medical or pharmaceutical service, including vaccination.

I tend to think that compulsory vaccination is/will be desirable.
That the Governments cannot make it compulsory is a given but there would seem to be no law against making vaccination a condition of employment and travel etc.
Governments could make it so onerous not to be vaccinated that life would be, if not worth living, then very, very tedious.

"Governments could make it so onerous not to be vaccinated that life would be, if not worth living, then very, very tedious."
(Posted by Is Mise)

Yes. If we were governed by the Taliban. I'm fully vaccinated because I want to be. I would find that sort of government intolerable, and one to be overthrown by any means.

I take the same approach as the Victorian Government
did with it's "No jab, no play!" for its child-care
centres when they made immunisations compulsory for
all children in child-care. They did the right thing.

Now that the pandemic is reaching so many people -
not being immunised should not be an option. People's
lives are at risk. And not to have the jab - you're
contributing to the spread of the disease and behaving
like a parasite. It should be mandatory. A choice is
no longer an option - especially in NSW.

And please let's not make this political.

Get yourselves vaccinated, or not, and stop whining about what other people do. We will all die when our time comes. Around 170,000 Australians die in a year, an increase of about 30,000 over 5 years due to the population increase. The numbers will continue to rise - very few will die from Covid.

Would you like some cheese with your whine?

We all know that Paul has a fraught relationship with the truth.

Eg " the radical anti-vaxxers and Trumpsters, along with conservative state governments such as Florida"

The evidence that the largest numbers of those unvaccinated are either Democrat voters or from groups that favour the Democrats. But that won't stop Paul asserting (ie a claim without evidence) the opposite. He picks out Florida as a problem (again no evidence) but Florida's vaccination rate is basically the same as places Paul will never criticise such as New York. Why? Well he's worried about the Florida governor and the 2024 election. OF course the New York governor isn't interfering in the vaccination rollout - he's too busy assaulting women.

A free people would never agree to mandatory vaccinations so its possible in Australia whose people have decided on perceived safety over freedom. There is a risk with the vaccine although the government is trying to pretend otherwise. If there is a risk a free person must have the choice to take or not take that risk.

Don't forget that being vaccinated does not preclude you from being locked down, under house arrest, the same as the unvaccinated. And, with our idiot politicians and moronic chief health officers casting aspersions on the efficacy of the vaccine, I understand some people, particularly the young and healthy, saying to hell with vaccination; advise the vulnerable to take care of themselves (as I and others have) and let young, the employed and productive act like the free people they are supposed to be in a democracy, and make their own choices. If the relatively few people who might become very ill, or even die from Covid can't take responsibility for their own health - or their families or carers cannot - stiff cheddar. The lives of the majority, and the economy, should not be ruined for the sake of a few. And, I speak as one of the vulnerable ones.

Today, once again the out of control far right extremists were rampaging through the street of Melbourne and Sydney, attacking police and endangering the lives of other Australians. Several police were treated in hospital, and many of the crazed mob were arrested. How many of the Forums 'Usual Suspects' were in attendance? The anti vaxxers and pro Trumpsters, put your hands up!

Hi Paul,

These protesters don't seem to realize that
if they continue to behave like this - flaunting
all the safeguards and the rules that lockdowns
will only continue longer, and longer.

Although vaccination won't prevent you from infection it should hopefully keep you out of intensive care.

The idea of already stressed hospitals overflowing with critically ill patients possibly dying in crowded corridors should be of concern.

The USA is currently experiencing a surge of 100,000 infections per day and in Florida, supplies of liquid oxygen are being diverted from water purification purposes to hospitals, causing drastic water shortages.

Not me Paul,
You wouldn't catch me anywhere near a COVID risk as big as that.
One part of me opposes these people protesting, but another part of me is starting to support them.

I say if people can't protest, if our rights are curtailed, diminished or suspended;
- Then the governments right to make new permanent laws should also be suspended.
- And we all know whatever new powers the government have given themselves during the pandemic, they won't be giving back after the pandemic is over.

Mandatory Vaccinations and Vaccine passports.
My girlfriend said a few months back that this would become a fight between the vaccinated and unvaccinated, and it's starting to go that way.

The unvaccinated are now at the cusp of becoming the minority, and the voice of the vaccinated is becoming bolder.

What happens when 70% of people are vaccinated?
Are they going to then democratically force through mandatory vaccinations the other 30% to take the jab?

At this point, the majority (vaccinated) won't give a shite about the rights of the minority 30%, they just believe Gladys and the TV's bs about having their normal lives back.

Which is actually a lie, because countries with 75% vaccination rate, still can't control delta.

Notice it's not about supression so much anymore, - But 'living with Covid'?

As far as I'm concerened the government has done every single thing wrong since this pandemic started, they haven't protected anyone.
If they cared about people's health they'd close the borders to outside visitors, and they wouldn't give footy players weekly exemptions.
(I bet 100,000 immigrants still arrived on cue during the pandemic)

Why did QLD post an increase in 25,000 jobs?
ANSWER - Because we locked people out.
The rest of you lot have truly wrecked the country.

Amazing how the 'Usual Suspects' carry on about a harmless shot in the arm, but are the first to support COMPULSORY military service for others, where Australians are likely to get a shot in the head, and a one way trip home in a body bag!

With the Gladys virus running amuck in New South Wales, with thousands infected, hundreds hospitalized and dozens dead, the NSW economy in ruins there is not one person in Intensive Care who has been fully vaccinated. The incompetent Berejiklian who along with the useless Health Minister Hazzard plus the shambolic Morrison government are totally responsible for this mass of deaths and infections all over Australia and New Zealand. When will these fools RESIGN?

Hi Foxy,

The wife and I had our 2nd AZ on Friday. Son in Sydney had first Pfizer Friday, his partner is getting her first Pfizer today. Son was stopped by the Berejiklan Gestapo going to work yesterday, demanding PAPZE! The NSW Nazi government have created a new offence of "Not doing the right thing." carries a hefty fine and/or imprisonment. the new offence of course doesn't apply to their favoured supporters in the leafy burbs of Sydney.

Hi AC,

I believe we have a very strong libertarian ethos in Australia, and that will prevail over authoriternism in the long run. Emergency government powers to deal with a crises is not new, they were instigated in 1919 against American Swine Flu, sometimes wrongly referred to as Spanish Flu, and again during WWII. These emergency powers were withdrawn after the crises past. and with even more libertarians today on both sides of politics I'm confident that will happen again after this crises.

I only found out recently that in 1919 the penalty for not wearing a mask was up to 6 months jail. The authorities had the power to quarantine people for an indefinite period in a isolated quarantine station, and if you died bury you there. Maybe the powers today are not that bad.

The government are so incompetent, that you could take a whole bus load of Downe Syndrome kids, and they would do a better job.

So we have a pandemic...
Ok I've got this great idea, lets put all our quarantine facilities, in the biggest hotels, right in the centre of our nations capitals.
What's everyone think about this?

"What a great idea, we all agree"

Bunch of incompetent morons.
It was never going to end well.

Trust the science.
Coming from the same people that let thousands of palliative care patients die horrible deaths without access to CBD in the final stages of their lives.

But they're happy to promote this experimental vaccines with provisional approval, knowing full well people will die from it.

Trust the science?
Science created Covid in a lab.
I trust my gut instincts, and they're telling me not to trust any of this.

Not sure about the lab theory, just as likely the Americans produced Covid in their lab, every self respecting super power has a lab to produce germ warfare. Losing the economic war with China, the Yanks released coved in Wuhan in an attempt to destroy the growing Chinese economy, but it backfired on the Americans. As good as any other conspiracy theory.

Of interest; Death and such sensibilities. After the Battle of Waterloo, they dug large pits, into which went the dead British and French soldiers, dead horses and mules, body parts, animal parts etc. Then the pits were covered up. End of story.

Paul1405- "we have a very strong libertarian ethos in Australia, and that will prevail over authoriternism in the long run"

Answer- I believe that Paul1405 is referring to "a strong Locke Liberal" ethos in Australia rather than "Libertarian" ie. Negatively 'Free' in the sense of John Stuart Mill 1800s- rather than the freedom of Aristotle. Many contemporary philosophers have redefined/ relabeled the Positive Freedom of Aristotle as 'Authoritarianism'. But they are just different definitions of freedom.

Aristotle and others argued that "principles of virtue were required to be truly free of the desires of the body"- if someone couldn't control their eating and became ill and obese- they were slaves to food.

Other philosophers such as Schopenhauer 1800's also discussed these ideas- Nietzsche could be said to have continued his work

I was only saying to the Queen
the other day how I hate name dropping.

So Paul decides that Florida is a hotspot for the unvaccinated. I bring forth data that that isn't close to true. Paul decides that he's never heard of Florida. Paul has told us before he never explains. Well he does explain if thinks he still has a case but never explains when he knows he's wrong.

" Today, once again the out of control far right extremists were rampaging through the street of Melbourne and Sydney,.."

Well far to the right of PAul at least. But then so was Trotsky.

There was a similar protest last month which we were told was dangerous and a likely super-spreader event. Yet not a single case has been found as a result of that eveent and you can bet the authorities were anxious to find one.

But no matter, we are told this one will be a super-spreader and the usual crowd (yes I'm thinking of you Paul) will fall for it all over again and believe it with all their soul.

The Premier and NSW Health have confirmed that they haven't had evidence of a single case of the outdoor spread of the WuFlu. This is also confirmed by the CDC and some researchers in the US say they can't find an example worldwide.

The protest was suppressed to suppress dissident opinion, not to stop the spread. The police were unleashed so as to stop people exercising what used to be their democratic rights.

If only we had a liberal government.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_disagreement

Perhaps if Foxy reads the above link she will be able to present an argument better than "I don't like the tone of your argument" and will be able to argue more logically. But I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

There is much misunderstanding on all sides of issues around the corona situation and much politicization of the bureaucracy- much of it caused by the subversion of the "Communist March through Western Institutions"- this has undermined the community and created irrationality- this has led to widespread irrational mistrust in the arms of government.

Little wonder that the masses are now scared and angry with authorities.

The Communists have ideologically bombed western societies back to the stone age.

They say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree ...
Unless the tree's growing on top of a hill,
plus every apple has its own seeds.

CM tells us that "The communists have ideologically
bombed western societies back to the stone age."

In actual fact the quote of bombing societies back
to the stone age is usually attributed not to communists
but to Curtis LeMay, the scowling American Air Force
General who incinerated two-thirds of Japan's cities in
World War II, and was disappointed when Kennedy wouldn't
let him do the same to Cuba.

Who are these alleged Communist bombers?
Russia? Cuba? North Korea?
How fragile and unstable must democracy be?

The only people I see marching in defiance of the public good are self-interested zealots who get their information from Karen on Twitter and jump at imaginary shadows.

Their "right" not to wear a mask is apparently more important than my right to keep my family safe from physical harm or death.

Chances are many of the same "my body my right" are also rabid anti-abortionists.

If they were around during the London Blitz they would be not covering their windows at night and claiming the bombs were a hoax.

If there was any real justice those protesters wouldn't get COVID themselves but their loved ones would and they can then witness what their actions have created and be forced to live with the guilt.

They call this The Age of Stupid for many reasons and this is just another one.

Maybe this is Nature's way of flushing them out of the gene pool.

Should Covid Vaccination Be Made Compulsory?

Of course not, it's a no-brainer and nobody seriously suggests that.

BUT, this pointless discussion obscures the terrible fact that this rogue gang calling itself "government" or "Commonwealth of Australia" or whatever other stupid name, has compelled us to NOT be vaccinated!

It is them who put us in harm's way! It is them who prevent us from taking care of ourselves and the health needs of us and our families. If not for them, we could have obtained our vaccines long ago, be it from overseas of by self-manufacture, we could even travel overseas to be vaccinated had they not prevented it. If not for them, we could choose our preferred vaccine with or without their approval, we could inject it in our own arms, we wouldn't have to beg for it from them and we wouldn't have to register it with them.

Of course, they want us to thank them, for presumably saving our lives and health - but they cannot cheat us, even while they have the guns and all the sophisticated equipment to oppress us, we will never believe their propaganda machine: they are the guilty and while in this world they hold the brute force over our bodies, they have no hold on our souls.

Indeed the Taliban would be worse, but the difference is only quantitative: qualitatively and philosophically, they and the Taliban are the same.

rache,

"Their "right" not to wear a mask is apparently more important than my right to keep my family safe from physical harm or death."

There is no evidence worthy of the title that shows that being outside and not wearing a mask is dangerous. NSW Health has confirmed what has been found all around the world- that the virus doesn't get transmitted through casual outdoor contacts....eg "NSW Health told Nine reporter Chris O'Keefe that throughout the entire pandemic, not a single confirmed case of COVID transmission has been found to have occurred outdoors." Whatismore, Gladys herself, in her daily comedy half-hour, confirmed that they had no evidence for outdoor exposure and that the reason they have those rules is to make policing easier for the police.

That to me is more than enough reason to protest and to do what you can to ignore the outdoor mask rules.

Many people just believe what the government feeds them without independent checking. To many, the mere fact that the government has set these new rules (they aren't laws) is sufficient to convince them that there must be a reason ("Karen on Twitter and jump at imaginary shadows" indeed).

Of course the government does have a reason for these rules that have no basis in fact - they need to be seen to be doing something, even if that something is useless.
Many people preen themselves that they are following the science - but have decided this science (that outdoor masks are useless) is something they'll ignore.

Many people have supported the claims of women's groups that they have exclusive rights over their body in regards to pregnancy and that the state has no right to interfere. Where are those moral preeners now that the state has determined that it has a right to treat our bodies as their domain?

why is wearing a mask outdoors so difficult?
Perhaps its the government's way of getting
people to simply get used to wearing masks
when out in public - inside or outside -
especially when being not far from others.
Medical experts tells us this virus does
not discriminate and it is transferable to
others. I would rather wear a mask if it means
keeping myself and others safe.

How hard can it be to do it if it helps save lives.
And not to do it - means possibly putting yourself
and others at risk. "My body, my rights," NO.
Not when it can affect someone else and their family.

The Covid panic - with border closures, lockdowns, talk of "passports" and compulsory vaccination, seems to be proving, in my view, the contention that Western civilisation has become so obsessed with safety that many people are prepared to accept tyranny in return for being shielded from the unpleasant things of life.

One the other hand, there seems to be a growing number of people who are acting like people do when they no longer see the necessity for certain laws, and they start to disobey them. When the contact between the people and the government has been broken, and continues stubbornly to be broken as it is in Australia, anything can happen, will happen, and is obviously happening now.

"Perhaps its the government's way of getting
people to simply get used to wearing masks
when out in public"

But the government and agencies around the world have confirmed that wearing a mask outdoors has no benefit. The NSW government has admitted that and has confirmed that the reason they do it is because it makes the police's job easier. Forcing people to obey useless rules just so the police's job is easier isn't the way a democracy works or the way free people live.

"How hard can it be to do it if it helps save lives."

Of course there are many who just refuse to follow the science when it suits. Masking up when outdoors doesn't save lives. Indeed there is some evidence that it does the opposite.

What I find astonishing is that even when the government comes out and admits that they were lying about things like this, some continue to want to believe the lie.

The Commonwealth Department of Health’s Infection Control Expert Group says evidence around the efficacy of cloth masks is “limited, indirect, experimental” which is probably why one of their recommendations is that “when there is absent or localised COVID-19 transmission, the general use of masks in the community is not recommended.”

I think Rache is a bit of a Karen and probably a Felicia too as well as a Scott Neville. But I wouldn't say it because that would be perhaps Ad Hominem.

In fact Communists have a history of being whingers- but it seems in these times the biggest whinger get the sauce.

It's interesting the the BLM community can't come up with something better than an Ad Hominem attack.

But OLO is sort of all about giving our opinions- it's even in the name.

Opinions are like butt holes - everybody has one.
And on this forum they're especially noticeable.

Has the whole country gone mad with the manufactured terror of this flu?

"Rescue dogs shot dead by NSW council due to COVID-19 restrictions"
http://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/rescue-dogs-shot-dead-by-nsw-council-due-to-covid-19-restrictions-20210821-p58ksh.html

"Child holding sign that read “Let Me Play” hit with pepper spray at Melbourne’s freedom rally."
http://twitter.com/CaldronPool/status/1429170413771268102

_________________________________________________________________

There's opinions and there's fact. Some people struggle to tell the difference.

mhaze,

Kudos! Well said - I mean the part about facts!
We're all entitled to our opinions - but not our facts!
(smile).

With the Liberal made Covid disaster, firstly in Sydney then over much of Austria and NZ, all thanks to the incompetent lack of action from Berejiklian and Morrison. This pair of galahs now want the people to think of better days ahead when things are at 80% vaccination. Months have gone by and Australia is just at 30%, the Gladys virus is killing people in Sydney everyday. At 11am daily the woman fronts the cameras and rings her hands, telling Sydneysiders what naught children they've been, and telling them about the harsh penalties if they transgress the new law of; "Doing The Right Thing".

Old man in Sydney found sitting on a park bench eating a ham sandwich by Constable Clod, Constable Clod rang Fat Sargent.... "Sarg, I've caught an old coot eating a ham sandwich."...Sargent... "Yep! charge him with Not Doing The Ring Thing, slap him with a $5,000 fine....and confiscate that dangerous sandwich...bring it back to the station, I've got no lunch."

Dear CM,

You wrote with your usual cowardliness:

"I think Rache is a bit of a Karen and probably a Felicia too as well as a Scott Neville. But I wouldn't say it because that would be perhaps Ad Hominem."

More of the usual passive aggressive crap from you.

Could you please stop, it really does get on the nerves.

Christians with NO ETHICS

Churchgoers at Blacktown church Christ Embassy Sydney fined after COVID-19 breach
http://youtu.be/Glow4RvWSiQ

Never ceases to amaze me how these holier-than-thou Christians prove themselves to be nothing more than human trash.

To all you bloody Christians out there, I just want to say you're all a bunch of twisted mentalcases.
Your bible is NOT a path to righteousness, all it does is tie your brains in knots and make you lose all sense of yourselves.

YOU SEE THIS ??

http://ethics.org.au/ethics-explainer-the-harm-principle/

"The harm principle says people should be free to act however they wish unless their actions cause harm to somebody else."

If you don't understand this, then you all BELONG IN HELL.

"We're all entitled to our opinions - but not our facts!"

I know...right.

Here we have the fact that mask wearing outdoors is utterly unnecessary and yet we still have people who write that mask wearing outdoors "helps save lives." They prefer their opinion over the facts.

Yet those same souls will preen themselves that they always follow the science.

________________________________________________________________

My father has dementia. Each morning, without fail, I have to contact him to remind him to take his pills. He never remembers, doesn't even remember that I had to remind him yesterday or the day before or the day before that. Each time, its like a whole new revelation for him.

I feel the same about Paul in relation to this ratio....
NSW deaths per 100000 = 1.
Victoria deaths per 100000 = 13.

I tell him - he forgets.... and then goes on about how bad the NSW government is and how praise-worth Chairman Dan is.

mhaze,

Leave Pappa out of it. Just continue taking
care of him.

As for the facts? We've reached the stage in
this country - where it's too dangerous to
take risks with this virus. Caution is necessary,
and better safe than sorry. And that's a fact!

mhaze,
First off they weren’t Rescue Dogs, such are used to rescue people and other animals.
They were strays which would have been killed anyway and it’s not as if there is a shortage of dogs.

Second, what was a child doing at the rally?
And why were the incompetents rubbing spray residue into his eyes?
It seemed ages before anyone turned up with some water.

"Never ceases to amaze me how these holier-than-thou Christians prove themselves to be nothing more than human trash."

Who was the "trash" risking affecting except other "trash"? And, your diatribe against "bloody Christians" could be seen as very trashy. Your hate-filled outburst against all Christians based on a single incident clearly defines you, Armchair Critic.

How can you, as a non-Christian say "you all BELONG IN HELL" when you cannot believe in such a place!

Now, while I don't have sufficient faith to do the same - and I stay clear of people whenever I can - this "human trash", as you call them, might have sufficient faith to feel protected by God. And there is nothing that your hatred, the law, the police, can do to prevent them from believing that.

In the meantime, there is little chance that any of them were infected or that they would be rubbing shoulders with the likes of you, who apparently cannot take responsibility for your own well being, but instead expect Big Brother to protect you, and persecute other people on your behalf, including Christians, who are still the most persecuted people, globally, in the 21st. Century. That should make you feel good.

Australians have been exceedingly compliant with whatever their leaders have demanded of them in these past 18 months, and most are still willing to comply. But there are increasing signs that lockdown and restriction fatigue is setting in. People want to see light at the end of the tunnel. Fines, abuse and irrational hatred aren't going to stop increasing civil disobedience.

Hey ttbn,
Well it should be fairly self evident that I set out to offend them;
- With a dose of humility.

"How can you, as a non-Christian say "you all BELONG IN HELL" when you cannot believe in such a place!"

Easy, I can do it again for you if you like.
Do you want me to write out lines?
- I can even copy and paste.

What does it matter what I believe?
Can you get your brain around that?
The point is that's what they believe.

I said it to show how flawed their religious beliefs are, if they're so dumb they don't understand the concept of 'not harming others'.

"Might have sufficient faith to feel protected by God"
Hello? Wake up Australia.
That MIGHT just EXACTLY BE the problem?
I don't care what they believe.

If they're willing put others at risk of harm and don't care about the consequences;
Then their God will judge them for it anyway and they WILL face consequences.
So what does it even matter what I say?

I bet you didn't make this much of a fuss when Israel Falou said 'Gays belong in hell' did you?

Does it make me feel good?
- Well, someones gotta do it.
Bad things happen when good people do nothing.
So I did something, and said what I said.

- And if I've offended people, then I achieved what I set out to do.

AC,
You are to be commended for highlighting how the majority of Christians are following the Government’s directives.
Well done.

mhaze rings Pappa everyday to remind him to take his pills, mhaze; "Pappa take your pills!"...Pappa; "Okay son I'll take my pills."...5 minutes later Pappa rings mhaze everyday; "Son take your pills!"...mhaze; "What pills?"...Pappa; "The bloody ones you take everyday!"...mhaze; "What pills?"

mhaze are you referring to all those deaths in aged care in Victoria that the Morrison government was responsible for, after all private aged care is a Federal responsibility. Like your pills maybe you have forgotten that. By the time the Andrews government was able to get in and arrest the pathetic situation caused by Morrison, hundreds were dead. Don't forget there were few deaths in public aged care a State government responsibility.

Has anyone else noticed that poor Paul seems to be increasingly resorting to the silly little fantasy stories he makes up.

I think its because the real world hasn't worked out as he hoped, and he therefore prefers his fantasy world.

Paul,

You now try to exonerate Chairman Dan by blaming all the deaths under his administration on others. Somehow there were very few deaths in federally funded nursing homes in the rest of Australia but all the ones in Victoria had nothing to do with Chirman Dan. Perhaps it would have been a good idea to check the numbers before you decided to just dredge up any old excuse.

Not that I agree with the notion but if you exclude all the deaths in Federally funded nursing homes in NSW and Victoria then the ratio looks like this:

Victoria - 2.47 deaths per 100000
NSW 1.07 deaths per 100000

So even after excluding your pathetic excuse, Chairman Dan still has by far the worst record.

But I suspect you'll try to ignore that - or will it slip your mind?

Dear mhaze,

Why do you do this? I'm not one for believing in karma but every time you waltz out one of your cute little predictions it gets blown out of the water.

Your US rates got torched. Your Swedish rates proved to be utterly laughable and your smugness over the second wave was shown up completely.

And here you are once again tempting fate.

The NSW deaths from Covid will inevitably be in their thousands by the end of October, even given the accelerated vaccination rates. This is hardly something to be flippant about.

AC,

Your quip that you “can do it again” doesn’t change the fact that you don’t believe in Hell, and are being hypocritical by using a term in the lexicon of a religion you quite clearly despise.

“What does it matter what I believe”, you say. How odd. Doesn’t what you believe matter? If it doesn’t, why are you regularly giving us the benefit of your beliefs? Why do you continue posting if you doubt what you believe?

As for what you think “they” believe, I am a Christian, and I don’t believe in Hell, and quite a few other things you like to stereotype Christians with. As I said recently, the biggest critics of Judaism are the people who know the least about the religion. The same applies to Christianity.

I am not “making a fuss”: nor did I do so, as you incorrectly assume, when a rugby player said homosexuals belong in Hell. He believes in Hell, you don’t. I don’t.

It’s a pity that you set out to deliberately offend people as you have told me. Offence is taken, not given; and it’s highly unlikely that the targets of your wrath would know - or care - that you were deliberately offensive towards them. If they did, they would probably forgive you

mhaze, a little bit of humour at your expense goes a long way in these troubled times. nothing like a crusty old conservative.

What you are not accounting for is last year in Victoria, the vaccination rate was 0% first dose, and 0% second dose. Right now in NSW the vaccination rate is 50% first dose and 30% second dose, add to that the learning experience for managing Covid both medically and with health orders it easy to see why NSW would have a lower death ratio. Of course every death in NSW is down to the incomperdence of Liberal governments.

"Of course every death in NSW is down to the incomperdence of Liberal governments."

What were the 800 plus deaths down to in Labor Victoria, I wonder.

That's easy ttbn, the virus got out of quanentean in Melbourne, a Morrison responsibility, it then entered private aged care, another Morrison responsibility, over 800 dead, down to the incompetent Morrison government. Just as in NSW where the incompetent Liberals there have combined to kill dozens. Anything else you want to know ttbn? Remember the "gold standard" Morrison claimed was the Berejiklian government when it came to virus protection, that gold has well and truly rusted by now.

AC- Your position on this item is different than what I expected but there you go. Myself I'm torn as I can see that the issue is politicized and so it seems that some no longer trust the government or bureaucrats or police- this seems to be the basis of the actions of some.

Politicians have made errors in the handling of this 'incident' and have perhaps shown that they can't be 'trusted'.

Churches as other organizations do rely on funding to survive- those people that support religion should make an extra effort to ensure their economic capacity in these times- donate to their local church.

I imagine that being away from church in stressful times for the faithful is worse than death perhaps. Not sure what the communist faithful do in such times.

Ok, firstly I'm agnostic which means 'fence sitter'.
I support the 'I don't know' position.
There's not just 'believers' an 'unbelievers' you know, it's an ignorant view of things.
There's 3 categories, 'believers', 'unbelievers' and 'people who admit they don't know'.
And from my position, both believers and unbelievers are full of it,
Why? - because they BOTH claim to know, and they can't both be right, where I sit opposed to both the 'claiming to know' positions, in an 'I don't know position'
So when you assert, I don't believe in hell...
Well that's not precisely true, my position is 'I don't know'.

Religious people think good morals come from religion.
Why does one need to be religious to be a good person?
Maybe because in the mind of Christians all others are sinners etc.
I support ethics and principles OVER religion.
Christians might be opposed to something because it's sinful, and speak up about it;
Whereas I use ethics and principles to guide my decisions regarding right and wrong.

Am if my ethics and principles tell me that what Christians are doing is wrong, then I'll speak my mind, just as I would, ANY religion.

How will things in this world ever change for the better, if people won't stand up for what is right, and are so lost they don't even know the difference between right and wrong in the first place?

[Cont]
And why are we even getting our tantys on anyway?
100 Covid cases detected in Blacktown on the day that preacher in was preaching.
- That guy was probably just there to fleece his own flock.
Do you not understand this?

If he really LOVED the members of his church, REALLY CARED about them, then HE WOULD NOT allow them to come if there was a risk of harm to them. A good shepherd protects his flock to see than no harm will come to them.
- And health is the greatest wealth.

Have a live online sermon, and ask people to donate, it's tax free after all, no need to pass the cash under the table.
He's willing to risk THEIR health for money.
- He just wants to pass the bag around.

Maybe he can make them feel guilty for not giving and impose upon them for cash more directly face to face than online, I don't know.

I oppose his selfishness, I oppose his putting of his church and local community at risk;
- And if he does not understand the concept of doing harm to others, then he shouldn't be preaching in the first place, the lowly charlatan.

If I see Christians doing harm to others, and it demonstrates how clueless and flawed their understanding of things is, I'm going to speak out every single time I see it, so you all may as well just get used to it.

[Cont]
And if a preacher can get things wrong, then it's the blind leading the blind, is it not?
Does this not allude to the beliefs themselves being flawed, if so many Christians act this way and get it wrong?

Christians would do well to learn ethics, learn about doing harm to others, if they don't then they are rightfully due the criticism I bestow upon them.

Religious beliefs, are just 'something' they inserted into the space that was originally earmarked and reserved for ethics, by way of one's own conscience.

Thanks for your feedback AC.

SR thinks the numbers I gave Paul are "cute little predictions".

Obviously the discussion around them was too complex for SR - perhaps when I showed numbers to two decimal places it confused him. Even whole numbers seem to bamboozle SR.

Anyway SR, these weren't predictions. They were my actual calculations of the relative rate as at 20/8/21 after excluding deaths in Federally-funded nursing home.

"The NSW deaths from Covid will inevitably be in their thousands by the end of October"

In their 1000s?? WOW. Well I know what I'll be doing on 1 November. But expect that SR will suddenly decide he needs a sabbatical around that same time.

Paul,

has spent months trying to exonerate Chairman Dan by blaming it all on the nursing homes. So I decided to check the actual figures and found that, even after excluding Paul's lame excuse, Dan's performance was multiple times worse than Gladys'.

Paul's response? Well having used the nursing home excuse for months, he just simply dropped it and moved onto the next excuse on his 'How to excuse Dan' list.

It'd probably be easier if Paul just published the entire list although we all know that the only important point for Paul is that one is Labor and the other isn't. And for Paul that's the only statistic he needs to know.....Labor uber alles.

"a little bit of humour ".

Oh, that's passes for humour where you come from? Well that explains a lot.

mhaze, you don't deny quanentean and private aged care are Federal government responabilities. Morrison palmed those responabilities off to the states. With no vaccination available people in private aged care in Victoria were sitting ducks when the virus got out of control. Note it was Morrison's private, and not the state controlled public aged care where proper measures had been put in place by the Andrews government, that was a problem. By the time the incompetent Morrison gave permission for the state to go into his private aged care, it was too late and the damage was done and hundreds died.

In Sydney there has been deaths in aged care, but fortunately with high levels of vaccination those deaths have been limited. Nothing to do with the incompetent Berejiklian government response to the Gladys Virus.

Why can't the over 50s get pfizer?
Why is only pfizer being given to the under 50s only?

I just don't get it.

Why can people in Europe get whatever vaccine they want.
They're given a choice. And we're told what we're getting.
No wonder people are nervous and believe all the hype
and misinformation out there.

The Christaphobes will be pleased to know that $50,000 in fines will be going into government coffers after the police raided the Campbelltown Church of Christ acting on a complaint from a single ratfink member of the public who is probably another anti-Christian. Covid has become a real moneyspinner for state governments.

In the meantime, this comes from the WA police. "The directions we are ordered to comply with are highly politicised and often lack scientific foundation".

Hi Foxy,

"Why can't the over 50s get pfizer?" Because Australia doesn't have adequate supplies, and we have Morrison.

"Why can people in Europe get whatever vaccine they want." Because Europe have adequate supplies, and don't have Morrison.

Just of interest, took on my first case in Brisbane last week and this, just a bit of voluntary work. 65 year old homeless gent, sleeping rough, no food, no money, no phone, no family support, alcoholic. had been directing where he could get local help, feed, cloths, wash etc. Had agreement with him for a Monday meeting with people who could help, including permanent accommodation which is very hard to arrange. Things went pear shaped Thursday night, got his benefit, got on the piss, lost his wallet, phone numbers, cards, money everything. He could contact me by public phone, didn't front Mondays meeting. I hear yesterday the cops evicted him from where he was sleeping rough and he's skedaddled. Was going to arrange a vaxx for him, but can't help those who can't help themselves. I rang the charity super and told him the outcome.

Hi Paul,

You can't help those who don't want help.
At least you did try.

The vaccine only provides protection for 6 months

AC, that may well be true can you provide evidence to support that claim. From the UK there is some report that effectiveness of vaccineene is reduced after 6 months and boosters become a possibility.

The Gladys virus is out of control in NSW, thanks to the shambolic lack of action from the Berejiklian government. Now there are 1,000 a day infections and no end in sight. Everyday at 11am out trots Gladys and her entourage of the useless, to scold the naught "children" for not doing the right thing, when we all know who is responsible for staring this outbreak in the first place.

Top marks to Palaszczuk for telling Morrison to stick it and committing to build a Toowoomba quarantine facility. Morrison has had 18 months and done nothing!

Protection against COVID-19 offered by two doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech and the Oxford/AstraZeneca coronavirus vaccines begins to fade within six months, underscoring the need for booster shots, British researchers say.

After five to six months, the effectiveness of the Pfizer jab at preventing COVID-19 infection in the month after the second dose fell from 88 per cent to 74 per cent, an analysis of data collected in Britain's ZOE COVID study showed.

For the AstraZeneca vaccine, effectiveness fell from 77 per cent to 67 per cent after four to five months.

The study was based on data from more than 1.2 million test results.

Hi AC, thanks for that, I think it was suspected but not proven. Booster shots most likely will become the norm, just like the annual flu shot. One thing that is clear, is the vaccineene reduces the severity of the illness, therefore hospitalisations and death, NSW is clearly showing that. The potty old Yankee President did say this is becoming the pandemic of the unvaccinated, I agree with him. As for side effects, the evidence is there that they are extremely low for severe and moderate for needle jab pain etc.

For some people the thought of a "needle jab" is akin to having their left arm amputated without anaesthetic. Please are we such a bunch of wozz.

It takes all kinds; "A man (Abdulfatah Omar Awow) hired to help contact tracers in Victoria stalked a woman who was in isolation, turned up to her home and demanded sex." police allege. Puts new meaning to getting the jab.

Paul wrote:"you don't deny quanentean and private aged care are Federal government responabilities."

Don't deny. Don't accept it. Don't think its the slightest bit relevant.

Paul, it seems what I did went over your head. I basically used statistics to play "let's pretend". Let's pretend Paul has a point and the disastrous numbers in Victoria were caused by the Federal-funded nursing homes. So I accessed the number of deaths in Fed nursing homes in Victoria and NSW. And then I deducted those numbers from the total death tolls in each state and recalculated the death rate.

And, much to your disappointment, and probably bemusement, I found that the Vic numbers were still way worse than the NSW numbers.

And since then you've been trying to find another way to exonerate Chairman Dan. Why not just say that you believe in him irrespective of the facts and leave it at that?

Dear Paul,

«"Why can't the over 50s get pfizer?" Because Australia doesn't have adequate supplies, and we have Morrison.»

I wonder whether this is the full story, or is this in Australia's DNA?

Why can't my family overseas post me a vaccine, or any other medication for that matter? That would not be at the expense of any other Australian!

What is occurring is that Australian government along with their AMA cronies forcibly hold the keys to the health of everyone who happens to live in this continent and surrounding islands, which is really none of their business. They enjoy their power, they like the sheep to thank them as if they done us any favour, so did every government of the past, so why do think a different government would be any better?

"Why can't my family overseas post me a vaccine,"

The Pfizer vaccine needs to be kept at roughly zero degrees centigrade during its transport. If your family has a way of mailing stuff while maintaining that temperature, then they probably could send it to you.

Fair dinkum!!

Meanwhile in the real world....

I have a post coming on the effectiveness of current vaccines. Not much use.

We need to develop effective antivirus treatments, as developed for treatment of HIV. Then we have a chance of living with this thing, & not otherwise.

I have organised local supply of Ivermectin with a script, bought from the local chemist, & overseas supply of Hydroxychloroquine & Quercetin. Correct dosages & necessary supplements are a problem, with just information from overseas being less than certain, but this is at least better than vaccines of doubtful safety.

A suitably developed treatment plan could allow the development of herd immunity much more successfully, but is unlikely with various elements using the problem to further their objectives.

At some stage we are going to have to let the infections rip, & this will be very dangerous for many with the current vaccines as the main support.

Dear Mhaze,

«The Pfizer vaccine needs to be kept at roughly zero degrees centigrade during its transport.»

In fact it should be around -70C°, but nothing there that money could not solve.

The problem is that this would be illegal and a criminal offense in Australia.
It is also currently illegal to have a COVID vaccine without reporting it to government.

mhaze,

You conveniently forget that in Sydney's nursing homes 90% of inmates are vaccinated, whilst in Melbourne 0% were vaccinated, has that slipped your mind, vaccination saves lives. You have been wrong from the start on every count when it comes to Covid, like others here as a Trumpster you took the word of Dangerous Doctor Donald, and got it totally wrong.

I hope you get vaccinated and don't just become another statistic on Morrisons failure list.

Paul wrote:"You conveniently forget that in Sydney's nursing homes 90% of inmates are vaccinated"

I don't know why this is so hard for you to fathom. The figures I last gave had the nursing home deaths removed for both states. So issues about whether the residents were vaccinated or not, were Federally controlled or not, were religious or not and so forth were immaterial.

Again, even after all nursing home data is removed Victoria has twice the death rate as NSW. That is, Victorians outside the nursing homes were twice as likely to die as NSWelshman outside nursing homes.

We all know SR is the numeric dunce in the group. Are you issuing a challenge?

"I hope you get vaccinated and don't just become another statistic on Morrisons failure list."

I'm already vaccinated. Indeed, I suspect I was the first in the OLO group to be fully vaccinated - two A-Z shots.

As I've mentioned before, at the beginning of the year I had responsibility and care for three octogenarians. Since then one has passed (not of Covid but a blood disease she'd been battling for 2 decades) and one has become a nonagenarian. Additionally, my wife is currently undergoing a course of chemo and is therefore heavily immuno-compromised.

With all of that, I was way up near the top of eligible vaccine recipients when those lists were first compiled. Although, had it just been me, I wouldn't have got the shot, given my responsibilities to very vulnerable others, I happily took the risk and got the jabs. I was pretty crook after the first but got over it.

All my charges are equally double-dosed. One advantage of having the maximum immunity currently possible is that it opens doors that would otherwise be slammed shut eg getting in to see doctors and specialists and having people like physios visit the older people I care for.

My main concern is my wife for whom the WuFlu would probably be a death sentence. As such she is utterly sequestered and, apart from the odd doctor, I'm the only person she sees or has any one-on-one contact. As people like Foxy will attest, that, for my wife, is probably a fate worse than death.

mhaze, what part do you consider vaccination, even though its lagging behind in NSW due to Morrisons cock-up with the roll-out, has played in reducing deaths in that state. Also do you consider better hospital management of patients is a factor in the number of deaths.

As a Trumpster I assume you are in favour of disinfectant and bright lights up the clacker. After most of last year claiming Covid-19 was nothing more than a mild cold, given 10 million deaths what is your prognostication these days.

"After most of last year claiming Covid-19 was nothing more than a mild cold"

Well I never said such a thing. But when I explained my thinking, I used big words and statistics so its not surprising that you misunderstood.

"you are in favour of disinfectant and bright lights up the clacker".

Well no one suggested that as a defence against infection. But they used big words and statistics so its not surprising that you misunderstood.

Dear mhaze,

How on earth am I supposedly the innumerate one when you are coming up with gems like this:

“Well you might think that but then you really don't understand the statistics, do you? As I showed you (although clearly I lost you somewhere along the road) the death rate in Australia for under50s is .03/100000. Since there are about 5 million under50s in NSW that means you'd expect around 2 such deaths in NSW.”

Yet 9 are now dead.

Go figure.

Wow SR,

Is that what you've been reduced to? Having been regularly embarrassed over the past month or two, you're reduced to trolling back through my past posts to try to find a sentence you can take out of context in order to try to salvage some self-esteem.

The worst part is that you know you're taking it out of context, which is why you don't post a link.

Let's recall that this is the thread where you tried to use maths to prove me wrong and instead made a monumental fool of yourself. Here's the critical post....http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=9530#321781

The post you extracted you quote from is here... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=9530#321836

Remember this is the thread where you tried to calculate two numbers to make your point. As I proved, and as you admitted, you got one of those numbers wrong by 300% and the other by 56000%.

Reading the quote you misrepresented in context, I wasn't making a prediction about the future deaths. I was using the maths you relied on to show that, with that maths, how many deaths there should be at that time.

Of course, its also possible that, rather than maliciously misrepresenting the quote, the whole thing was too complex for you and that explains your errors. After all, it had lots of numbers and we know that's very confusing for you.

Dear mhaze,

Lol. Yes that was the one which took you half a dozen posts to realise you were being lampooned.

You really have had to hang your hat of flu figures rather than Covid ones haven't you.

But hardly out of context old boy. You predicted 2 deaths in under 50s in NSW and they are at 9 already. There was no context which allowed you to walk away from this deeply flawed statistic of risk.

You still haven't made it clear in the slightest why you have gotten this so terribly wrong.

How about a decent answer for the good folk of OLO?

This was another beauty from you.

“But if they told people that, statistically, someone under 50 is more likely to die from falling off a ladder than from the virus, things would change.”

No they aren't.

https://fallsnetwork.neura.edu.au/resource/76/falls-statistics/3522/ladder_injuires_in_nsw_nov_2015.pdf

Your statistics never really hold up do they.

SR

"Yes that was the one which took you half a dozen posts to realise you were being lampooned."

Well actually it took a handful of posts for you to realise your monumental errors and then make up the excuse that it was all an elaborate sting. All very childish.

"You predicted 2 deaths "

No. You really do struggle to understand the difference between a statement of fact about the current numbers and a prediction of future numbers. You made the same error in this very thread where you thought the numbers I gave Paul about the current deaths were predictions for future deaths. That was the post where you predicted 1000 NSW deaths by 30 October. I can't wait to see how you run and hide from that one.

Re the ladders, your link doesn't have any data about the numbers of people under 50 who die each year from falls. This stuff really does confuse you, doesn't it? I could probably use the numbers in that report to arrive at a rough estimate, but you'd never understand the maths anyway, so why bother?

In that previous thread I pointed out that...

"And we both know that despite the fact that you royally screwed up, in 3 months or 3 years time, if it comes up again, you'll tell anyone who'll listen that you totally nailed the math and had to teach that dill mhaze about statistical logic. You've already done it several times so why change."

You are so predictable. Utterly unethical and totally predictable.