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The Forum > General Discussion > TRUE RISK OR NOT TO ECONOMY AND HEALTH ?

TRUE RISK OR NOT TO ECONOMY AND HEALTH ?

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Australian farmers must not be blamed for run-off killing GBR coral just because dumped sewage has saturated farms in the USA, blamed for nutrient pollution of The Great Lakes.

Australia lacks frequent rain and run-off.
Failure of news media to report fact of local knowledge and true science involving eutrophication is causing damage to coral and fisheries to continue.

Nutrient overload pollution damaging GBR coral and seagrass nurseries for small fish essential in the food web, is coming from Australian east coast city and town sewage dumped daily. The dissolved nutrient overload is transported northwards into GBR waters by known sediment dispersal current.

Blaming farmers and CO2 is very wrong and is not leading to solutions.

It's not just the GBR in trouble. Nutrient pollution is proliferating algae causing devastation of seagrass nurseries for small fish in the food web. Bigger fish are not immune to starvation.
Devastation of sheltered coastal seagrass nurseries is the fundamental cause of fish depletion linked to undernutrition and disease among seafood dependent Pacific Islands people, and loss of livihood in Australian and NZ coastal professional and amateur fishing tourism economies.

Why is science and news in conflict about eutrophication and CO2 emissions?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3946114/
Posted by JF Aus, Friday, 6 August 2021 7:18:51 AM
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Nobody or nothing should be blamed. The GBR is OK; it is used by Leftist wackjobs as just another way to divide and create angst.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 6 August 2021 8:33:11 AM
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JF Aus. The only catch with that theory is that the East Australia Current runs south from the GBR carrying warm water all the way to Tasmania, and presumably picking up pollution from all the cities it passes on the east coast and taking that to Tasmania too. Pollution affecting the reef would come mainly from both urban and farming activities in areas adjacent to the reef.

Also, while Australia as a whole 'lacks frequent rain and runoff', that definitely doesn't apply to coastal Queensland, especially the areas along the Reef, which have some of the highest rainfall and runoff in the country.
Posted by Cossomby, Friday, 6 August 2021 11:50:53 AM
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Come on JF Aus, an 8 year old bit of bumph that was bulldust when printed, surely you can do a bit better than that. Scare mongering takes more effort to succeed even with the average dill.

AIMS has recently released their annual assessment of the reef stating quite clearly that even after the disastrous cyclones of recent years, the reef has a higher coral cover than at any previous time since their establishment. Kind of knocks your bit for a six doesn't it.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 6 August 2021 1:45:27 PM
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No No No and no.

ttbn,
The whole world ocean including the GBR is not OK.
But yes, the GBR is being used for political agenda.
Angst? The story of cry wolf comes to mind.
However, nobody has evidence to prove the GBR has not been impacted by human activity. And if it has, what is the impact?

....................

Cossom
Wrong.
The East Australian Current does run south but it's offshore and rarely touches the coast, albeit momentarily.

The current transporting dissolved nutrient into GBR waters is the northerly flowing alongshore current that also transports solid matter including vast amounts of sand, the latter that falls down over the continental shelf just north of Fraser Island. Sand even comes into the northerly flow from Tasmania and the Great Australian Bight.
http://www.jcronline.org/doi/abs/10.2112/08-1120.1?code=cerf-site

Fresher alongshore surface water with bonded nutrient continues northwards past Fraser Island and into GBR waters, and can reach Cape York and beyond.
Queensland river runoff has a long history including in forming the GBR.
Sure the rivers now carry human-sourced nutrient, but it's the total load of nutrient from all point sources that amounts and sometimes causes damage. Too much fertilizer can have negative consequence.
Posted by JF Aus, Friday, 6 August 2021 6:54:19 PM
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Hasbeen,

Prove eutrophication is bulldust. If you can.

Coral is damaged or destroyed worldwide generally but in some areas its thriving, depends on water quality in currents here and there, nothing to do with CO2 emissions or GLOBAl warming, or plastic bags.

AIMS and their coral recovery report, I think, refers to the recovery of coral in the northern GBR that was severely damaged during 2016 by AGW heat as AIMS and JCU etc claim. That is where the highest rate of recovery occurred, not on the whole GBR.
The whole GBR is not like a thriving botanical garden.

The whole GBR is mainly a big dead limestone rock topped with living corals and plant biodiversity with channels cutting in from the ocean and East Australian Current waters. (as Hasbeen would remember).

On the reef top the coral cover now has dead coral in between living corals, some areas such as in the Swains are all dead.
Generally, it's no longer healthy live coral joining up against other healthy living coral, like it used to be.

Its the way coral is observed, trained eye v/s untrained eye, or what is filmed to suit whatever political news agenda.
But the GBR and whole world ocean is in trouble. That's why Australia now has to import aquaculture fish, and why mutton birds are dead in mass starvation events, and why emaciated whales are washing up, and why many seafood-dependent islanders now suffer unprecedented lack of nutrition and increase in disease (NCD).
Posted by JF Aus, Friday, 6 August 2021 7:04:22 PM
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Have a lot of experience of the east coast & Great Barrier Reef waters do you JF Aus?

Please detail this experience will you, so we can ascertain if you have some knowledge, or are just preaching from the usual greenie hymn book of misinformation.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 6 August 2021 8:53:11 PM
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JF Aus. The article you linked is behind a paywall, so I have only read the abstract. Even allowing for near-shore north flowing currents, I do not buy your suggestion that urban pollution from, say, Sydney and Brisbane gets to the reef. First, sediment carried north would be dumped along the way to form sanddunes and sand islands. Sand grains move by saltation; they are lifted up then dropped, kicking up the grains in front of them. I suspect that a lot of pollution would be buried in the sediments in the process. Second, most damage (at least bleaching) has been at the north end of the reef; if the damage was due to pollution from the south, you'd expect the south end to be more effected.
Posted by Cossomby, Saturday, 7 August 2021 1:13:25 AM
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Throughout history, political movements have asserted that society is facing an unprecedented crisis, and the only way to get resolution is to vote for them - hand control over to them. Carbon Dioxide induced climate change is just one such ‘crisis’. Lots of ‘crises’ have been promoted by the LEFT over the past 50 years - economic inequality; peak oil; overpopulation; mass starvation; global cooling in the 1960’s, and now global warming. The LEFT has promoted all these mythical crises, exaggerated them. They blame capitalism, and claim that to survive, we have to adopt Marxist policies involving government control and redistribution of wealth.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 7 August 2021 11:04:04 AM
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Cossomby,

Search: The Sediment Dispersal System on the Southeast Margin of Australia

That Abstract does not refer to dissolved nutrients bonded to fresh water in fresher ocean surface water driven northwards by those prevailing winds.
Nutrients bond to fresh water and remain bonded until taken up. Cape York is downstream from Sydney and even Tasmania, the GBR in between.
Prevailing SE wind energy forms waves and current that transports heavy sand AND fresher surface water northwards.

The severe damage to GBR northerly coral followed extensive excavation and dumping of spoil in GBR lagoon waters off Gladstone during the expansion and deepening of Gladstone Harbour. The resuspended spoil and coastal sediment dispersal system nutrient level total was not measured scientifically.

Excavated solid nutrient resuspended matter does become sediment again, and sudden resuspension during a storm or cyclone can cause a spike in nutrient overload and algae and hypoxia and eutrophication, in spots or covering an area, even years later.
Algae produce oxygen but at night or under cloud, algae take up available oxygen. Coral depends on oxygen. It doesn't take long for suffocation to occur.
I have observed and have photos of dredge spoil impregnated in a beach, months later during a storm that beach disappeared.

Bleaching also occurs in southern GBR coral however it was the big area of damage in the north that received extensive news coverage.
In the 1960's I don't remember seeing any so-called "coral bleaching". A long-time diver friend said to me several years ago, "we were lucky to see it the way it was".
Posted by JF Aus, Saturday, 7 August 2021 11:29:13 AM
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Hasbeen,

I will reply at length here because I think you have considerable sailing experience and now seek proper explanation.

I began freediving in 1954 at age 11 in Sydney Harbour, my dive mate is still alive and well, a witness if needed.
I began exploring the GBR while assisting Ron Taylor and a friend making underwater films.
In 1971 I dived the Atlantic coast of Spain and Morocco, and the Mediterranean, always exploring the ecosystems.
In about 1972 the director of the Australian Museum asked me to build the research station at Lizard Island but I declined and went into partnership aboard an American marine research vessel, to co-produce underwater films. I joined the ship at Cairns and from Sydney went to Lord Howe Island and back to Sydney and then Solomon Islands assisting with two Australian Museum - National Geographic expeditions. We explored waters of New Caledonia and the New Hebrides.
While returning to Sydney from Lord Howe during 1973 the ships owner/skipper asked me to check the ships position as his sextant showed the ship stationary over the bottom for 24 hours. My RDF verified that position. Importantly our ships speed was 5 knots, a 64 foot length, beam 28 feet, draught 5 feet, very susceptible to surface current. So the current must have been of about 5 knots.

In 1975, a family of 5 on a small boat went missing between Sydney Harbour and The Pittwater. Weather was calm with no trace of the boat or equipment or people. I immediately suspected the NE flowing (Lord Howe/Sydney) current had whisked all trace of boat and people out to sea. On two occasions during my life I have experienced 250 foot visibility in warm ocean current while it was actually touching the Aust coast. Accordingly I advised water police. A news report resulted with the Navy saying a current of over 2 knots could not exist in open ocean.
Continued………
Posted by JF Aus, Saturday, 7 August 2021 3:44:33 PM
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Cont’d.
In 1985 also during August, another vessel with 4 men vanished, this time from Shellharbour south of Sydney. The official search was to the south to Gabo Island. I contacted police and advised the boat had likely gone northeastward.I was told the S&R computers know everything.
I chartered a plane and searched to Lord Howe Island, stayed the night, and next morning searched toward Newcastle without success, but three weeks later the missing boat was found there between Lord Howe and Newcastle. An Inquest occurred and Government search and rescue procedure was changed.
I had been put in touch with CSIRO's Dr George Creswell who later described 200km diameter anti clockwise eddies reaching a speed of 5 knots at the outer edge, part of the East Australian Current that sometimes flows out to sea between Sydney and Lord Howe island.

In 1977 I started production of my own film told/seen from the point of view of a giant black marlin. I designed a giant fishing lure and was towed inside feet first backwards underwater to film marling attacking and feeding for the first time. An American explorer invited me to the Bahamas to film giant Atlantic tuna underwater for the first time but those tuna did not arrive. Locals blamed longline fishing. This was my first insight to fish depletion. And yet again I gained considerable ocean ecosystem experience.
Following release of the film in 1981 I learned of malnutrition and seafood shortage among islanders in the film. It was hard to believe. I reopened general investigative research into world fish depletion, causes, consequences, impact and solutions. Off duty teachers at screening said the film should be in schools. Subsequently I mad live presentation to over 100,000 students in more than 500 Australian schools, while using the on-road tours to explore fairy penguin starvation and collapse of commercial tuna fishing at Bermagui and Eden.
ABC Four Corners interviewed me at Eden for a program they titled, “Learn to Eat Shark”. But now shark populations are also devastated.
Continued……….
Posted by JF Aus, Saturday, 7 August 2021 3:45:29 PM
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Cont’d.
While based on the Gold Coast I endeavoured to convince my local MP John Bradford, who put a motion in Parliament about FISH STOCKS. The motion was seconded by two opposition MP’s. Click Mr Bradford and see 3 of the last 4 paragraphs here: http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;db=CHAMBER;id=chamber%2Fhansardr%2F1995-06-05%2F0010;page=0;query=(Dataset%3Ahansardr%20SearchCategory_Phrase%3A%22house%20of%20representatives%22)%20Decade%3A%221990s%22%20Year%3A%221995%22%20Date%3A05%2F06%2F1995%20Speaker_Phrase%3A%22mr%20bradford%22;rec=1;resCount=Default

Its now 2021. During the past 15 years I have been based about 6 months a year in Solomon Islands, where in a remote area I have access to a canoe and reef diving and observation of ongoing serious and general fish depletion . Coral is severely damaged almost everywhere. Nutrient pollution is arriving from international waters, adding to local nutrients. Even in Australia there is gross ignorance about the ocean, more so about nutrient pollution and dire urgent need for solutions including low cost solar to pump nutrient loaded wastewater far inland where deserts need feeding to grow feed and fibre.

Any doubts or questions?
Posted by JF Aus, Saturday, 7 August 2021 3:46:24 PM
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Hasbeen,

Try this link to Hansard re J Bradford FISH STOCKS motion.

http://bit.ly/3Cs44AE
Posted by JF Aus, Saturday, 7 August 2021 4:09:02 PM
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JF Aus, I don't know if you ever heard the advice to a bunch of new chum competitors in the Sydney Brisbane race. He told them to nip around each headland as quickly as possible, to get out of the stiff south going current, then sail deep into the bays to get into the back eddies going north.

When someone asked him how far to go into the bays his answer was, "If the dogs aren't barking at you, you are too far off".

A few experiences, for what they are worth.
Port Stephens to Broken bay, average over the ground 9 knots, with out the speedo ever reaching 5 knots.

Sailing all night north bound from dusk to dawn at between 4 & 5 knots, in exactly the same place all close inshore just south of Port Stephens.

Chatting to a couple of lobster fishermen anchored in Trial Bay. They were waiting for a lull in the south going currant, which was dragging their string of 4 or 5 floats on their pots out of sight under water. They had been waiting 5 days, & were hopeful of a coming southerly blow to stem the current a bit.

Up the reef, even with the South Easter behind it, the north going ebb tide is only about half the rate of knots of the south going flood tide. I have run into 9 knots of south going, but never more than 4 knots north going.
Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 8 August 2021 6:30:35 PM
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So the Reef is OK?

I remember when Joh Bjelke-Petersen undertook a glass bottom boat inspection of areas allegedly damaged by the Crown-of-Thorns starfish and was happy to advise everyone that the reef was OK. His description was that it was "gleaming white".

It things are so great up there, let's have a report on what's been the result of that huge pile of money thrown at it by Turnbull.

I suspect the government is trying to avoid international embarrassment, considering their recalcitrant stance on climate change and the fossil fuel industry working in the area.

Here's how it works - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6BW-mvkRjE
Posted by rache, Monday, 9 August 2021 1:33:15 AM
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Hasten,

I admire the patience you sailors have. Also I am jealous of the pleasure you get from cruising with the wind and sounds and silence it brings.
Unfortunately perhaps my time at sea has always been with engines so as to go where and when as desired. Like keeping well away from the dog's. I have no experience sailing.
Underwater it's different again. When diving deep its common practice to follow the anchor line down. I have seen different currents stacked one on top of the other and flowing strongly in opposite directions.
Anchored on the surface the sea was calmz no wind, with no apparent current, but diving down to 30 feet the anchor line was at 45 degrees and pulling tight, down another 30 feet the line was in the opposite direction and pulling tight, and another 30 or so feet tight again in the other direction, and on the bottom in 180 feet there was no current at all, at the Birchgrove Park wreck off Avalon Sydney.
Imagine what submarines navigators have to contend with.
Posted by JF Aus, Monday, 9 August 2021 9:11:30 AM
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Rachel,

Government and media should be more specific.
The huge lump of limestone that forms the actual GBR reef, is OK. But coral and other biodiversity alive on top of that rock is generally not OK.

The Great Barrier Reef ecosystem (GBRE) is not OK.
The GBRE is in big trouble due to nutrient overload, nutrient pollution, especially because the east coast of Australia sediment dispersal current transporting that pollution from all point sources, is not measured and assessed and included in GBR management science.

Very importantly.
The whole world ocean is in trouble due to nutrient pollution and ignorance of consequences. And greater ignorance of employment and business and economically stimulating win-win solutions.
Posted by JF Aus, Monday, 9 August 2021 10:02:32 AM
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Hasbeen,
Sorry about the typo/spelling of your name back there.
Posted by JF Aus, Wednesday, 11 August 2021 4:04:28 PM
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Nothing has changed, amazing. Too bad for coastal community economies, eh.

Sewage nutrient pollution from all east coast point sources remains virtually ignored as the following 2014 article and my comments to it, indicate.
http://theconversation.com/great-barrier-reef-facts-tv-ads-ignore-dredge-dumping-risks-25899?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=The+Weekend+Conversation&utm_content=The+Weekend+Conversation+CID_1f34531799fa19431a14334c4566e415&utm_source=campaign_monitor&utm_term=Great%20Barrier%20Reef%20facts%20TV%20ads%20ignore%20dredge%20dumping%20risks

To reach the deactivated link in the article, cut & paste and search this: The Sediment Dispersal System on the Southeast Margin of Australia

Deleting or hiding links to this sediment dispersal current and the dissolved nutrient overload pollution it is transporting into GBR waters, feeding algae that is damaging coastal ecosystems and coastal pro fishing and amateur fishing tourism economies, will not lead to solutions.
Posted by JF Aus, Wednesday, 11 August 2021 5:06:12 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/embed/P-IzlvgRxA8
Posted by individual, Monday, 16 August 2021 10:21:54 AM
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