I hear your sentiments spanky.

The notion that one in fourteen deaths being murder by firearm is insignificant, is pretty damn foolish.

What's more, that's only the actual murders - not the accidents or the police firearm deaths. So the actual gun deaths are even higher.

Like I said, I really can't help but wonder whether shockadelic's actually arguing for or against gun control. It would be a very clever method of arguing, were it coming from a gun control advocate.

TurnRightThenLeft: "As far as the suicides go, perhaps it would be more difficult if they didn't have a gun."

So people *don't* have the right to end their life?
I bet you're "pro voluntary euthanasia".

"If you released a product and found that in only seven percent of cases it killed people, perhaps a few people may find it 'excessive.'"

Firstly, let me correct a misunderstanding.
The mortality figures listed are for *injury* related deaths only, deaths from disease are not included.

Most products aren't designed to be *capable* of killing, and saying if they did it would be a big deal: Well, DUH!
We're not talking about breakfast cereal!

"That's only the actual murders, not the accidents or the police firearm deaths. So the actual gun deaths are even higher."

Police and accidental firearms deaths combined are only 3% of all firearm deaths and 0.6% of injury deaths in general.
Omigod!

Including *all* firearm deaths (including suicide and accidental):
The American heart disease death rate is *22 times* that of firearms.
Cancer: 18.7 times.
Stroke: 5 times.
Respiratory disease: 4.1 times.
Accidents: 3.7 times.

Considering the top 20 causes of death, you are *40 times* more likely to die from disease/accidents than suicide/homicide (the main gun deaths)

Suicide/homicide (and not just from guns) account for only 2.4% of the top 20 causes of death.
If anything's killing Americans, it's not guns, it's heart disease and cancer.

http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcaus10.html

"Ahh... I get it now. You must be secretly arguing for tighter gun control. Very clever."
"I really can't help but wonder whether shockadelic's actually arguing for or against gun control.
It would be a very clever method of arguing, were it coming from a gun control advocate."

Oh, Hee hee hee.
Aren't you clever, trying to discredit my arguments by pretending their yours.
Grow a brain.

Whoa, calm down there tiger.
The huffing and puffing may make for entertaining posturing, but there's really no need for such dramatics. You're sounding like an angry teenager with an axe to grind.

I'm responding to each post as you make it - nowhere in your initial post did you make any point about them being only the 'injury' statistics, so I've responded as such.

So, to rebut more of of your statements:

"So people *don't* have the right to end their life?
I bet you're "pro voluntary euthanasia".

Actually, yes I am. In situations where people have had a proper psychological assessment.

Let me get this straight - do you think it should be easy for people to just commit suicide? What about all the people with depression? Think for a second here - are you seriously going to support this argument?
This is a tangent so I won't put too much of a response here, but if this is something you want to debate then I've got plenty of reasons why this is not a good idea.

In relation to the gun stats - you'd need to prove that the situation isn't worse in the US than in Australia. I can't see the number of gun deaths possibly being lower, given the fact they are much more accessible there.
As I see it, your argument essentially hinges on the notion that many of these gun deaths would have ended up being death by other means - but the fact of the matter is, guns make death much easier.
It's a hypothetical argument so statistically speaking it's damn near impossible to prove or disprove.

I am an angry teenager (at heart; also a hopeful child, a cynical adult, and a mischievous elf).

"Nowhere in your initial post did you make any point about them being only the 'injury' statistics"
But now you know, you still think the gun deaths are astronomical?
Only 2.4% of all deaths are suicides/homicides, and only *1.4%* of all deaths are from firearms.
Out of control!!

""So people *don't* have the right to end their life?
I bet you're "pro voluntary euthanasia".
Actually, yes I am. In situations where people have had a proper psychological assessment."

Oh, so I need some kind of *official approval* of my choosing to die, do I?
Fill out form 72B and step right this way.

"Do you think it should be easy for people to just commit suicide?"

And more "difficult" methods would just produce more injuries and disabilities.
Lose-Lose.

Do you want suicidal people to wind up half-dead, vegetative, disfigured, from a less successful suicide attempt?
That'll really help their depression!

If you're concerned about depression or any other *cause* of suicide, then deal with the cause, not the symptom (gun ownership).

To rephrase the slogan: Guns don't kill the suicidal, the suicidal kill themselves (any way they can).

"You'd need to prove that the situation isn't worse in the US than in Australia."

No, *you* need to prove these people wouldn't have died anyway.
But "it's damn near impossible", right?

Spanky: "Hey you guys,
What the heck, there should not even be a percentage!
Get a grip...pulleaessse!"

0% gun deaths?
Come on!

Murder has been with us since Cain and Abel.
Suicide almost as long.
And guns for hundreds of years.
They're inevitably going to link up *sometimes*.
"Get a grip", yourself.

Actually, yes, I think people should have some 'official' approval.

Depression can pass. I've known people who have passed through suicidal episodes and recovered.
So while I'd support someone with a debilitating condition ending their live having undergone proper counselling and so forth, I'd hardly advocate any normalisation of suicide as a solution to somebody's problems.
Murder may have been with us since Cain and Abel, but so has human compassion, something I'm seeing awfully little example of in your posts. No percentage of gun death should be seen as acceptable - I can understand that realistically there may always be gun death, but to just blithely accept that is truly sad.

And 1.4 per cent is huge. It's a significant blip, and I reiterate my earlier point that statistics are all about context.
You say 1.4 per cent is insignificant - yeah, well all things are relative. How's that compare to other countries which don't have such a lax attitude toward guns?

Homicide's harder without guns. People still try to say that more guns will solve the problem, but it's through more homicide. Call me old fashioned, but I tend to prefer death as a last resort.

If some hood pulls a knife on me, I mould prefer to see death as a first resort. Their death.