Academics have debunked ‘Dark Emu’ , sorry that I can’t post links (new computer, that I have yet to.learn) but Google the title and plenty will come up.

It was debunked before the ink was dry by Peter O'Brien, whose rebuttal of Pascoes' lies, 'Bitter Harvest' was published in 2019 and available from Quadrant Books.

Pascoe has been done over by several writers and commentators since; I don't know who these "academics" could be, but they have been pretty slow off the mark detecting the fraud.

Thanks for bringing it up, though.

Pascoe was clearly motivated by a desire to
redress the serial denigration of Indigenous
People. He drew attention to the fact that
Aboriginal people maintained the land in a
sustainable manner and cared for the environment.
He was persuasive - but then he's not only a writer,
but also a performer, an orator, a dedicated
storyteller in the old style.

I heard him speak at the State Library of Victoria.
You could have heard a pin drop that evening.
The audience was fascinated. Clearly it was something
they wanted to hear.

If anybody is interested they should
read the primary sources that
Pascoe gives. His Bibliography is impressive.

Those that are having a go at Pascoe's book now?
It seems they have their own agendas and
have signed up for their own reasons. Something to
keep in mind when considering their supposed
objectivity.

To me - Pascoe made readers view things in a different
light. And that in itself is worth a read and a follow
up.

Is Mise

Pascoe's ridiculous claim to some connection with "aboriginality" has also been debunked by individuals and organisations with genuine claims to such connections. Investigations have revealed that this fake's ancestors are pure English.

Issy, we had a 127 page or more discussion on this topic when Joe was with us. Why do you want to fire it up again? Another opportunity of trying to bucket on Indigenous people I suspect.

BTW, I bet you and the other detractors, unlike myself, have never read Pascoe's book. So anything you say is from a point of ignorance.

What happened to the old folks home? Obviously no Parcheesi played there. If that's the case I wont be signing myself in! Goodbye Bluey.

Backing up Is Mise's post, original 'debunker' Peter O'Brien, writes on the further debunking of "fauxborigine" Bruce Pascoe's fictitious twaddle.

The academics in question are anthropologist Peter Sutton and archaeologist, Keryn Walshe.

They accuse Pascoe of: "of a “lack of true scholarship”, ignoring Aboriginal voices, dragging respect for traditional Aboriginal culture back into the Eurocentric world of the colonial era, and “trimming” colonial observations to fit his argument. They write that while Dark Emu “purports to be factual” it is “littered with unsourced material, is poorly researched, distorts and exaggerates many points, selectively emphasises evidence to suit those opinions, and ignores large bodies of information that do not support the author’s opinions”.

"Pure fiction", they say.

O'Brien says of Pascoe that he is not some "misguided amateur scholar, whose heart is in the right place" who could perhaps be forgiven for a "few transgressions or misinterpretations". He is a "serious and serial charlatan who has defrauded a generation".

Pascoe’s book should be "withdrawn from bookstores" , his honours and awards rescinded. The commission of a "monumental fraud" has made him a wealthy and famous man

Paul,

You are correct assuming that I haven’t read ‘Dark Emu’, I do have a copy, $2 from the Salvation Army Opshop in Tenterfield; money mis-spent.

Why bring it up now?

Because it’s back in the news, and will keep coming up untill the fraudster is punished.

Foxy,
You were all riveted to the spot, conned would be a more accurate description; conned by a conman!

I remember you once recommending a book, ‘The Colonial Kangaroo Hunt’, it too had an impressive bibliography but turned out to be just another ‘bash the white man’ attempt.

I read a bit past page two but that was enough to shew that the authors were lacking in basic reasoning skills and academic rigour.

For in stance, they had the “ Endeavour” being repaired off the Queensland coast whereas it was repaired on dry (more or less) land, that’s how the Endeavour River got its name.

Issy, you don't have a copy, like ttbn you have never read the book, simply criticising from a position of ignorance. I've read the book and have no problem with it.

I can say I am a better target shooter than you, because I can honestly say I've never missed the "Bulls-Eye". What do you say to that? BTW I've just been on the SSAA web site, there this character Brad Allan pratting on about the best guns to shoot deer with. What would he know, everything he says is bunk!

Russell Marks has written an interesting article
on - "How the history wars avoid debate and reason."

He points out that "Dark Emu" is not an "academic" history.
And tells us that - its cultural role is to "translate"
knowledge hitherto trapped inside the academy and broadcast
it to the world.

We're told that historian had known for a long time that
so-called hunter-gatherer economies were highly sophisticated
and that there have been many books, journal articles and
conferences devoted to exploring what the historical,
archaeological and paleontological records show about how
various nations, tribes, clans, and groups lived on this
continent before Europeans came and destroyed physical
and economic structures.

Marks points out the before he became embroiled in the
"history wars" himself, Geoffrey Blainey with "Triumph of
the Nomads " (1975) offered an earlier public translation
of this kind of history.

It wasn't until the NSW Premier's Literary Awards' judges
voted "Dark Emu" its book of the year in May 2016 that it
began to attract major attention.

The book was adapted by the Bangarra Dance Theatre in mid
2018, by Pascoe himself for children ( as "Young Dark Emu")
in June 2019, and as an ABC documentary by Rachel Perkins'
Blackfella Films.

These last two adaptations in particular brought "Dark Emu"
to the attention of Australia's reactionary right, which has now
built a sizeable echo chamber inside such institutions
as "Quadrant" "Spectator Australia" and the Fox News-styled
Murdoch stable, including Sky News Australia and, of course,
"The Australian."

cont'd ...

cont'd ...

Marks tells us that Andrew Bolt who rose to prominence
during the early 2000s by attacking the Australian Human
Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission's 1997 "Bringing
Them Home" Report into the Stolen Generations wrote his first
"Dark Emu" column for the "Herald Sun" on November 17, 2019.

Marks says that in it and many since, Bolt relies heavily on
an anonymous website, "Dark Emu Exposed" which Marks tells us
purports to "expose" and "debunk" what it asserts are the books
many myths, exaggerations and "fabrications".

In the same vein as regular "Quadrant"contributor Peter O'Brien
produced a book - "Bitter Harvest: The Illusion of Aboriginal
Agriculture in Bruce Pascoe's Dark Emu" published in Dec. 2019
by Quadrant Books.

So here we have how Australian intellectual life now works.
On the one side Marks says - sit those who see the need to
synthesise Indigenous and settler experience, hitherto
about as divergent in our histories as one can imagine.

On the other, those who strive to resist this synthesis and
retain pride in the colonial story, This has dramatically
re-organised our national culture. But all this attacking
does not resolve the issues. And will undoubtedly
continue for quite a while.

The Dank Emu is at best a work of fiction. The "evidence" that Pascoe uses is apocryphal at best and the conclusions drawn are tenuous.

That this novella is being panned by respectable researchers is unsurprising.

Farmers of Hunter Gatherers?

"Dark Emu" is actually not being panned by researchers,
certainly not by Sutton and Walshe. They treat it
quite respectfully with the twin virtues of
rigour and readability.

The "Dark Emu"debate needs to be read carefully,
keeping an open mind. The book's focus is on both
material and spiritual economies and their misinterpretation.
Despite racist commentary of some, this is not an
exclusively right or left wing issue of a bunfight.

Bruce Pascoe's "Dark Emu" will continue to be granted
recognition, if not immortality.
Sutton and Walshe's "Dark Emu Debate" will undoubtedly be
acclaimed as a critique of Pascoe's book. Which I do
intend to read once it becomes available.

Those of us who read Dark Emu without the jaundiced I-want-this-to-be-true bias always knew it was a load of rubbish. It took a particular gullibility to accept even its less controversial assertions as anything other than mindless codswallop.

Its nice to see that the academic community has roused itself enough to now address the issue. Way too late, but that's how academia works.

The problem is that original hoopla over the lies in the book are already well embedded in the 'thinking' of those of a certain leaning and will remain there irrespective of the revelations now confirmed. Indeed, such is the media these days that many who were exposed to the lies will never hear of the truth.

“Falsehood flies, and the Truth comes limping after it.” Swift.

""Dark Emu" is actually not being panned by researchers,
certainly not by Sutton and Walshe. "

Struth....

" In page after page, Sutton and Walshe accuse Pascoe of a “lack of true scholarship”, ignoring Aboriginal voices, dragging respect for traditional Aboriginal culture back into the Eurocentric world of the colonial era, and “trimming” colonial observations to fit his argument."

"it is “littered with unsourced material, is poorly researched, distorts and exaggerates many points, selectively emphasises evidence to suit those opinions, and ignores large bodies of information that do not support the author’s opinions”.

Not being panned??...honestly, the lengths some will go to self-deceive.

Foxy,

Given that academics typically use tactful language, the commentary on Dank Emu is about as damning as it can get:

https://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/author-bruce-pascoes-bestselling-aboriginal-history-book-dark-emu-debunked/news-story/2f0e0da56ce70a008a6cbe3aa836a9af

"Other experts have also raised doubts, including Australian National University anthropologist Ian Keen, who described the evidence for farming as “deeply problematic”, and renowned historian Geoffrey Blainey, who said there was “no evidence that there was ever a permanent town in pre-1788 Australia with 1000 inhabitants who gained most of their food by farming”, as claimed in Dark Emu.

Now two leading experts – anthropologist Peter Sutton and archaeologist Keryn Walshe – have taken aim at Pascoe in a new book, Farmers or Hunter-Gatherers? The Dark Emu Debate, set to be released by Melbourne University Press next week."

On the basis of long term research and observation
Sutton and Walshe portray classical Australian
Aboriginal people as highly successful hunter-gatherers
and fishers.

They strongly repudiate racist notions of Aboriginal
hunter-gatherers as living in a primitive state.

In their book, they assert there was and is nothing
"simple" or "primitive" about hunter-gatherer fishers
labour practices.

This complexity was and in many cases still is, underpinned
by high levels of spiritual cultural belief.

Sutton and Walshe provide extensive evidence to support
their argument that classical Aboriginal society
was a hunter-gatherer society and as sophisticated as the
traditional European farming method.

The book asks Australians to develop a deeper understanding
and appreciation of Aboriginal society and culture.

Bruce Pascoe is very pleased that his book has shone a
light and is encouraging this debate to continue.

Paul,

I do have a copy of the book, I have tried to read it but it is so boring that I always give up.

Foxy,

Pascoe is e has no Aboriginal ancestors from Australia, his ancestry is European, and if he is of Australian Aboriiginal descent, then why does he always evade the issue?

As well as fantasising, Pascoe is a champion avoider of answering questions; he also never names people whom he claims supplied him with information. They are 'some' archaeologists, some explorers etc.

Is Mise,

Attempts to discredit Bruce Pascoe's Aboriginality
is done to discredit him and especially his book.
Pascoe's book is now in its 40th reprint.
And Australia's reactionary right have now built a
sizeable echo chamber inside their publications.
A storm in a teacup - which nobody takes seriously,
especially young people or Pascoe himself.

He has the support of his community and people like
Indigenous Australian Minister Ken Wyatt, and
Prof. Marcia Langton to name just a few.

He considers himself of Aboriginal ancestry, he has
records to prove it, and he is accepted by his
community as being Aboriginal.

What some trouble-makers think is irrelevant.

Pascoe has supplied an impressive Bibliography -
which is worth a read.

Foxy,

If Pascoe has records to prove his Aboriginality where are they?

It would be so easy for him to shame his detractors; his silence regarding evidence is curious to say the least.

If he is not of. Aboriginal descent then he is a liar, a cheat and a fraudster.

It would be so easy for him to set. the record straight.

What about the dinky-dy Aboriginals who don’t recognise his claims?
Are they part of a right wing conspiracy?

Is Mise,

Are you seriously asking me where Pascoe's
records are for his Aboriginality?

Write and ask him yourself.

All I can tell you is that as it stands, Bruce Pascoe is
undoubtedly Aboriginal.

1) He identifies as Indigenous.
2) Maintains that he has in his possession documents
that confer he is of Aboriginal descent.
3) And that he is acknowledged and vouched for by
senior Yuin lore men.

By those measures Bruce Pascoe satisfies the criteria
of the official government definition of Aboriginality.

I have nothing further to add.
You could do your own research.

cont'd ...

What about the dinky-die Aborigines who do
recognise Bruce Pascoe as being Aboriginal?

People like Ken Wyatt, Marcia Langton, and
quite a few others?

Foxy,

Of course I’m not asking you, I full well know that. Pascoe’s ancestral records are in the various State BD&M records.
Anyone can get certified true copies and a number of people have done so.

Pascoe seems to be the only person who doesn’t want to see them.

Thanks for the heads up on The Colonial Kangaroo Hunt, a laugh a minute in what I read of it; great illustrations though.

I'm tired of hearing rubbish about the level of trade in pre-European Australia being significant. It is plain to anyone who can think that trade of the nomadic* aboriginal tribes was very limited. Why?

Well that's because they never invented the wheel nor were any of the native animals useful as beasts of burden, so every thing that they owned had to be carried. This severely limits what you can own. Consider the modern soldier and the weight of his kit as an example of what it is possible for someone to carry over long distances- for them it tops out at about 50kg. And that's for the fittest (as in an SAS soldier's level of fitness) with the advantage of modern ergonomic backpacks made of advanced materials.

Now obviously you can't trade much if you don't own much. Compare that to modern society where most individuals own hundreds or thousands of items which amounts to *TONS* of stuff. We can own so much because we have a very well developed legal concept of ownership that is protected by the force of the government and we don't have to personally carry it all wherever we go.

But it doesn't end there. Our modern extremely complex society (when compared to pre-European Australian societies) is composed of many diverse groupings of people, and groupings of groupings of people, and groupings of groupings of groupings of people, etc. All these groups can own stuff (eg: groups such as business partnerships, companies, clubs, charities, religious organizations, government organizations, etc.). And all this stuff can be traded.

-- continued below ---

-- from above --

But wait there's more! Compared to the original aborigines we have developed very advanced concepts. Such as our our number systems, monetary systems and the advanced concept of ownership of non-tangibles such as inventions and other intellectual property (stories, designs, software, etc.). Because this ownership is well defined and understood, it allows us to trade these things: we're not limited to just trading physical items or interpersonal services like the aboriginals did. Indeed, today we can even trade something as intangible as a bet, but not just bets: we can trade a bet that is about a bet that is about a bet. And in the financial world these "bets about a bet" are called derivatives and we trade them to the tune of billions and billions and billions of dollars a day!

*: note that this argument about carrying what you own applies to nomadic aboriginal tribes- which covers large swathes of Australia (especially the desert/semi-arid areas). Some tribes did have semi-settled/permanent lifestyles but compared to modern lifestyles they didn't own much and consequently didn't trade much.

"I (Is Mise) do have a copy of the book (of course you do), I have tried to read it but it is so boring that I always give up."

That's understandable Issy, the book tends to appeal to those of use with more than a third grade intellect. Besides, there are no pics, like in your Micky Mouse comics. I can see why you wouldn't want to "read" it.

No comment on all that knuckle dragging rubbish posted on the SSAA website? What sort of a Galah would reads that garbage. Its all been debunked by experts.

Paul,

I concede that you better marksman than I am; you manage to hit the bull in very many of your posts.

Foxy,

A hunter-gatherer society that lives in non-permanent dwellings is about as primitive as one can get with these societies not even getting bows and arrows. Comparing this with agricultural societies is a joke.

While societal dynamics are always complicated this need to present pre-settlement aboriginal societies as more than they were is at best misguided and worst just plain dishonest.

Shadow Minister,

I shall repeat what I have posted earlier:

On the basis of long-term research and
observation Sutton and Walshe portray classical
Australian Aboriginal people as highly successful
hunter-gatherers and fishers. They strongly
repudiate racist notions of Aboriginal hunter-
gatherers as living in a primitive state.

In the book, they assert there was and is nothing
"simple" or "primitive" about hunter-gatherer fishers
labour practices. This complexity was and in many
cases still is, underpinned by high levels of
spiritual cultural belief.

Sutton and Walshe provide extensive evidence to
support their argument that classical Aboriginal society
was a hunter-gatherer society and as sophisticated as
the traditional European farming method.

The book asks Australians to develop a deeper understanding
and appreciation of Aboriginal society and culture.

Bruce Pascoe in his book (now in its 40th reprint) used
historical sources, including journals of explorers.
Pascoe is pleased that his book has shone a light on
further debate and appreciation of Aboriginal society,
their farming methods, and culture.

Sutton and Walshe's book will be available from all good
bookshops, and your local libraries on 16th June 2021.
Worth reading.

There is nothing wrong with being hunters and gatherers, particularly for people who were 40 or so thousand years without any outside influence until British settlement. Debunking Pascoe's lies are not in any way derogatory to natives. The villain is Pascoe, not them.

Foxy,

The Cambridge definition of primitive is:

"relating to human society at a very early stage of development, with people living in a simple way without machines or a writing system:"

If you can see how this definition of primitive does not apply to pre-settlement aboriginal societies then please point it out.

Note that other "primitive" societies i.e. the Zulus in Southern Africa were way ahead of aboriginal culture. This society while having no literature mined, smelted and forged iron, traded with overseas societies and had a sophisticated and disciplined military that even defeated the British colonial army and by definition was primitive.

Yes thinkabit, you're completely correct..."so every thing that they owned had to be carried."

They of course owned very little and therefore had to carry very little. All nomadic primitive societies operate like that. Whatismore, it was generally the women, who were little more than chattels in the highly misogynistic society that was aboriginal culture, who did the carrying. One of the earliest encounters with aboriginal 'culture' after Philip arrived was when an aboriginal man was found killing his 2 yr old daughter. Her mother had died (probably at the hands of that same man) and since there was no one left to carry the toddler, she was doomed.

Aboriginal society was a stone age culture. They knew nothing of metallurgy, animal husbandry and failed to develop any form of writing, even the most primitive cuneiform writing. They were constantly one draught away from disaster. They waged war on their neighbours in relative numbers that far exceed anything in 20th century Europe.

They were a cultural dead-end having changed almost not-at-all for the past 40000 years, other than changes forced by their extermination of Australia's mega-fauna.

In some parts of the land, these hunter-gathers lived a rather good life as the land provided all without effort. But most groups didn't have the advantage of a fruitful land and lived a miserable existence.

Those enthralled by aboriginal society were/are embarrassed by the sheer backwardness of these people. So they fell in love with Pascoe's rubbish and suspended all credulity.

Those dedicated to the truth have been pushing back ever since and now this new book puts one of the few remaining nails in the coffin that was Pascoe's lies.

Shadow Minister,

Take up your arguments with Sutton and Walshe.
They are the ones making the claims about
Aboriginal society and culture . Reading their
book might help. It comes out tomorrow.

Foxy writes: "Sutton and Walshe provide extensive evidence to
support their argument that classical Aboriginal society
was a hunter-gatherer society and as sophisticated as
the traditional European farming method."

Quite a well constructed and erudite sentence from Foxy. Rather atypical of her writing. Oh, that's because she simply stole it holus bolus from the blurb about the book..... http://www.booktopia.com.au/farmers-or-hunter-gatherers--peter-sutton/book/9780522877854.html
She carries on as though she has special knowledge about the book, but in reality she is cherry-picking the commentaries that she likes. The rest she just makes up.
Of course, she's told us that its ok to just make it up.

Pascoe's book tried to overturn the previous understanding of aboriginals being stone age hunter-gathers. And his admirers fell for that with joy. This new book, along with all the other critiques of Pascoe, have completely eviscerated Pascoe's rubbish.

Its probably true that Sutton/Walshe do draw attention to the fact that some aboriginal groups lived a good life on a level with traditional farmers. But that isn't news. Blainey was saying the same thing back in the 1970s

Russell Marks as I acknowledged earlier in his article
makes it quite clear that Pascoe's book "Dark Emu" is not
an "academic" history. It's cultural role is much
like Tim Flannery's "The Weather Makers" (2005) and
Henry Reynolds' "Why Weren't We told?"(1999) is to
"translate" knowledge hitherto trapped inside the
academy and broadcast it to the world.

Marks says that historians had known for a long time that
so called hunter-gatherer economies were highly sophisticated.
Marks refers to Marshall Sahlins' "Stone Age Economics"
( published in 1972). He also points out that there have been
many books, journal articles and conferences devoted to
exploring what the historical, archaeological and
paleontological records show how various nations, tribes,
clans, and groups lived on this continent
before Europeans came and destroyed physical and economic
structures.

Marks also refers to Geoffrey Blainey's "Triumph of the Nomads"
(1075) who offered an earlier public translation of this
kind of history.

Marks tells us that Sutton and Walshe's book needs to be
read carefully, keeping an open mind. That the book's
focus is on both material and spiritual economies and
their misrepresentation. Despite the accusations and the
racist commentary of some, as Marks says - this is not an
exclusively right or left wing issue or a bunfight.

And Bruce Pascoe's "Dark Emu "will continue to be granted
recognition (its in the 40th reprint) .

The Bibliography
that Pascoe provides is impressive. Pascoe used historical
sources, including the journals of explorers. And he is
very pleased that his book has shone a light on this
issue. Sutton and Walshe's book is worth a read. It is
available from all good book shops from tomorrow -
16/06/2021 as well as from local libraries. Staff of course
are fortunate to get copies earlier. Worth reading.

Not one word of which alters the perseptions of many that Pascoe is a cheat and has no claim. to being an Australian Aboriginal.

It would be so easy for him to make his critics eat humble pie, just produce the evidence that he has, after all BD&M have been wrong before.

You are right ls Mise, but there is no convincing self-haters and Marxists. Fortunately, the average Australian is not like them, and they make their decisions at the ballot box without all the yap.

Hi Foxy,

I refuse to engage the forum halfwits on this subject, unlike you and I, none have actually read Pascoe's 'Dark Emu'. Me thinks Issy has a bad case of sour grapes, His book; 'Road Kill Recipes For The Unsuccful Hunter' didn't get past 2 copies, one for Issy and the other to a bloke who was too embarrassed to give his name.

Could you please give me your critique of Issy's book, it doesn't matter if you haven't read it, just tell me how bad it is

Dear Paul,

Talking about the "average Australian."

As Poppy King said:

"Some Australians still want everyone to be average,
as if the best thing you can do is fit in."

As for Issy's book?

The covers are too far apart

Paul,

Out of your. depth again?

Appealing to Foxy won’t help as her blinkers are superb.

Oh heh - My last post "deleted/missing" - however I am trying to conact again.

Gee?

Foxy,

Why would I argue with Sutton and Walshe? What they have said does not even suggest that aboriginal societies were not primitive. That their social interactions showed signs of sophistication does not conflict that their technology was at the bottom rung of human development.

Hi Issy,

All jokes aside, about 10 years back you did give a plug for a book, remember? What was its name.

Not having read 'Dark Emu' you can try this method. When I was at High School, I didn't read a certain novel, an assignment was due the next day. A mate known as "Roughtnut" a literary numskull himself suggested I try his tried and true method to gain a pass without having actually read the book. Read the first two paragraphs of chapter one, then read the first sentence of each chapter, then read the last paragraph in the book. According to the mate you would then know all there is to know about the book in question. If the assignment is say four pages, you've got the start, the finish and the rest is just a bit of padding in the middle. All you have to do is wing it, and a pass will be yours. I tried it, my paper came back with a big fat "F", and a note, "Its obvious you have not read the book, SEE ME!" Try it with 'Dark Emu' you might be more successful.

Shadow Minister,

Sutton and Walshe's book is available today from all
good bookshops and your local library. Get hold of a
copy. Then you can post with some authority.

Paul,
I have the 2020x1 edition and in the front blurb pages one Darina Adam’s of the Irish Examiner is quoted ‘Unputdownable’ and someone has pencilled in ‘Unbelievable’.

Foxy,

Yes, many reprints but how many in each?

Magabala is an Indigenous publisher and not a big business, my copy was printed by Griffin Press of South Australia.

https://www.themonthly.com.au/blog/russell-marks/2020/05/2020/1580868886/taking-sides-over-dark-emu#mtr

"But throughout Dark Emu, Pascoe regularly exaggerates and embellishes. One example: he quotes Thomas Mitchell’s description of large, circular, chimneyed huts Mitchell observed near Mount Arapiles, in western Victoria, on July 26, 1836, but leaves out the words “which were of a very different construction from those of the aborigines in general”. Pascoe adds his own commentary: Mitchell “recorded his astonishment at the size of the villages”; he “counts the houses, and estimates a population of over one thousand”; and “the evidence is everywhere that they have used the place for a very long time”. But in his own journal, Mitchell doesn’t express astonishment, he doesn’t count and he doesn’t estimate a population size. Nor does he present any evidence that would support a conclusion about longevity of residence. Granville Stapylton, Mitchell’s second-in-command, recorded seeing one hut “capable of containing at least 40 persons and of very superior construction” on July 26. Pascoe includes this, but not the rest of Stapylton’s sentence: “and appearantly the work of A White Man it is A known fact that A runaway Convict has been for years amongst these tribes.” That could be a reference to the well-known escapee William Buckley (who was found by John Batman the previous July), or it could be a racist myth. The point is that Pascoe simply left it out.

By themselves, examples like these split hairs. But they’re all the way through Dark Emu. Together, such selective quoting creates an impression of societies with a sturdiness, permanence, sedentarism and technical sophistication that’s not supported by the source material. In speeches and interviews, Pascoe is known to reach even further. And far too often Pascoe relies on secondary sources, including those obviously pushing ideological barrows."

Shadow Minister,

You've left quite a lot out. So you're criticising
an author for being "selective" when you're doing
the exact same thing yourself. Interesting.

You've left out the fact that:

Russell Marks also makes the following points
that "Dark Emu" rests on a foundamental
truth:

"That the European explorers saw things (and from within
their own world view, wrote them down) that the first
settlers (and the institutions that supported them didn't
want known) (because they were busy expanding the colonial
frontier, which necessarily meant acting illegally) and
that subsequent settlers couldn't see (because these
things were no longer in evidence)."

Marks - also tells us in summing up his article, that -

"instead of persuasion and deliberation, - instead of
core democratic values, - what continues is the pusuit
of righteous ideological rigidity which favours shamings,
take-downs and out right abuse."

He says that - "As with most public debates in the age
of Twitter, Fox News (and social media) there seems little
possibility of shared kindness, or compassion, or shared
understanding here."

He infers that the so called "Right"
has reorganised to protect settler
Australia's colonial legacy. That it's been on a permanent
seek and destroy mission setting their sight on
attack dog columnists (Andrew Bolt) and narrowcasters
on what they see as objectio9nable individuals. (Like
Bruce Pascoe).

Marks makes it quite clear that it seems their mission is to
extinguish the basis for Indigenous sovereignty and
self determination.

Perhaps what we should aim for is more persuasion and
deliberation? Reading Sutton and Walshe's book would
also help.

Foxy,
I look forward to your rebuttal of claims that Pascoe. selectively edited quotations from prominent explorers etc., for his own ends.

Shew us all just how Pascoe’s work has been distorted.

Is Mise,

I think I've provided enough views on the
subject and the issues involved.
I have nothing further to add.

Foxy,
Hope you like it; the corner that you’ve been coed into!1

Hi Issy,

You don't have a clue, you admit you haven't read the book, yet try and pontificate from your position of ignorance. If I was in your situation I'd be totally embarrassed. No one denies Aboriginal people were not successful hunter/gathers, they could not have survived on the Australian continent for over 60,000 years if they were not. What Pascoe offers is a different perspective, something you don't understand. Your reasons are possibly based on the fact you have a certain racial slant concerning Aboriginal people, and anything that would elevate our indigenous brother and sisters is seen as a threat to your white privileged position.

Paul,
Perhaps you would care to tell us all how Pascoe is being hard done by, by those ignorant people who allege that he trimmed quotes to suit his own purposes?

You seem to forget that I’ve posted abou,t my experiences with Aboriginal people and for some of whom I was the first European that they had ever seen.

You migh also recall that I posted about my Aboriginal relatives on more than one occasion.

Your post above does shew your usual marksmanship, you’ve hit the ‘bull’.

Foxy

The article was 1000s of words I can only "cherry-pick" 300 odd for a post. However, it does conclusively show that much of Dank Emu is conjecture and not fact.

If there were permanent structures build pre-settlement, there would still be traces. The aboriginals were nomadic hunter-gathers and primitive.

Hi Issy,

I've never considered you a Forum racists, and my above post does to a degree convey that notion. For making such an imputation I withdraw the comment.

However, we do tend to judge indigenous people, and other groups, "not like us" from our position of white privilege, you do it, I do it, its just natural (one day I will tell you about my feelings when I first encountered 500 "warlike" Maori in the hills of NZ).

I read Pascoe's book, did it change my belief that Aboriginal people were predominantly hunter/gathers, no it did not. More importantly it challenged the belief that Aboriginals lived within a simple society eking out a very primitive existence. I think Aboriginal society was more complex than we want to give it credit for. Could the early inhabitants of Australia have engaged in some form of agriculture, long before the Egyptians had even thought of the pyramids, yes Pascoe does offer evidence for that. Is this a big deal, not really, only to those who feel it threatens their position of white privilege and challenges the Europeans narrative that the continent was "empty" of useful people, and ripe for the taking. It also challenges the belief that Aboriginal people were suffering within their existence, and were fortunate that the white man turned up to relieve them of that terrible existence.

Shadow Minister,

Try to get hold of Sutton and Walshe's book and
read it. Then make up your mind. Stop espousing
the pursuit of righteous ideological rigidity
and the echo chamber of people like Andrew Bolt.
Who's on a permanent seek and destroy mission.

I know it's hard for public debate in the age
of Sky News, Fox News, and the Murdoch newspaper
stables - but give it a try.

Is Mise,

You ask about my being put in a corner?

No. I like to move around.

You never know what's around the corner.

Foxy,
If you’re not in a corner then continue the discussion by answering the questions posed.

Foxy,

The study of history is meant to be an objective and rigorous examination of evidence to determine the fact irrespective of how unpalatable they may be. The Dank Emu is quite the opposite. The evidence that I have posted unequivocally shows that Pascoe both drew conclusions that the evidence cannot support and in some cases deliberately falsified or manipulated the evidence. The dank Emu is at best fantasy and at worst propaganda.

By nature, people love to be told what they wish to be true and Foxy, in taking this uncritically as a true representation of history shows that you are naive and academically feeble.

It is sad when politically correct fiction is presented as fact.

Shadow Minister,

Go back and read my posts. I have not done what you are
accusing me of. On the contrary, I am willing to read
the material being presented from both sides - with an
open mind - and I am citing and giving the opinions
being presented.

Is Mise,

I have nothing further to add.

Foxy,

You have yet to post one thing that indicates that you even consider that Pascoe's work is anything but scientifically rigorous.

cont'd ...

Shadow Minister,

My advice is to read the primary sources that
Bruce Pascoe uses and to also read the multitude of
other sources that are available on Aboriginal culture,
bush food, and land management and practices, many
written by Aboriginal people living traditionally today.

So many books are available.

Did you know that Bruce Pascoe is growing traditional
bush food on his own farm and teaching the benefits to
others?

Shadow Minister,

Here's a link for you:

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2020/may-13/its-time-to-embrace-the-history-of-the-country-first-harvest-of-dancing-grass-in-200-years

cont'd ...

Again my apologies for the typo:

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2020/may/13/its-time-to-embrace-the-history-of-the-country-first-harvest-of-dancing-grass-in-200-years

Foxy,
So you can’t answer the questions, I understand.

The primary sources that you mention, do they include the quotations from explorers that Pascoe selectively edits?

Is Mise,

I am only responsible for what I say
not what you understand.

Hi Foxy,

Would it not be a starling revelation if any of the detractors said they had actually read the book.

Issy, are you donating your supposed copy to add to ttbn's BOOK BURNING of unapproved reading material?

Foxy,
I think that you can’t answer a straight question, pity that you are so handicapped.

On the subject of the primitive, the Scots and Irish and the.majority.of the English were primitive a few hundred years ago, even London had open sewers in the streets..

The cry of “Garde lieu” signalled the emptying of a chamber pot into the street from an upstairs window.

Dear Is Mise,

You prattled on with "Academics have debunked ‘Dark Emu’ , sorry that I can’t post links (new computer, that I have yet to.learn) but Google the title and plenty will come up."

They haven't debunked anything. Instead they did a critique of the book and took issue with a number of the positions taken by Pascoe. Dark Emu wasn't an academic paper, it was in part an invitation to look at the historic journals of those in early contact with indigenous peoples. This is something I have done on his recommendation and found some truely enlightening things which show our indigenous folk in a very positive light.

I am sure there will be people who will also take issue with this response to Dark Emu. That is just what academics do. There is a lot of very good stuff in Dark Emu and it would do you good to read the bloody thing.

Steele,
Obviously it’s not an academic paper, it’s a book, a book that I’ve tried to read but which I find so boring that I give up.
I have used it to make comparisons between Pascoe’s quotes of historical documents and accepted copies of those documents and I find that Pascoe trims quotations to suit his ends and adds wild speculation to try and prove his point.

His use of the title ‘Professor’ is also a bit misleading as it seems to be an appointment that is not academic.

Foxy,

From the book you claimed we should wait for:

As eminent anthropologist Peter Sutton and archaeologist Keryn Walshe meticulously demonstrate in Farmers or Hunter-Gatherers?, released this week by Melbourne University Press, Dark Emu is “poorly researched, distorts and exaggerates many old sources, ignores large bodies of information that do not support the author’s opinions (and) contains a large number of factual errors”.

Dank Emu is a work of wishful fiction.

Is Mise,

It's not our handicaps, it's our abilities that matter.

However, keep an open mind. Keep trying. Don't be
discouraged.

It's often the last key in the bunch that opens the
lock.

Shadow Minister,

I encourage you and others to access Bruce Pascoe's
Bibliography in Dark Emu and to also get hold of a
copy of Sutton's and Walshe's book which is now
available. Keeping an open mind would certainly help.

Foxy,
The bibliography is an extensive joke and at 16 pages is suspiciously long.

Is Mise,

Don't be discouraged.

An editorial in The Age is worth a read:

http://www.theage.com.au/national/dark-emu-debate-should-bring-truth-closer-not-be-used-in-culture-wars-20210614-p580rz.html

Foxy,
I liked the bit about Pascoe falling short of intellectual rigour at times.

Like selectively quoting and cutting out the bits of those quotes that don’t suit him.

Foxy,

One does not need to do in-depth research to see that Pascoe is a charlatan.

As for you: "there is none so blind as those that will not see."

Is Mise,

The Age tells us that

"though we can't change the past,
we can still learn from it, and make a better future.
Bruce Pascoe, Peter Sutton, and Keryn Walshe may not be
in agreement, but they are doing important work.

The Age "Keep culture wars out of Dark Emu debate,"
Editorial. 15/6 - points out and is right to urge that
the debate not be politicised, but instead lead us closer
to the truth."

We're told that "criticism is valid, but value remains in
Pascoe's work."

Shadow Minister,

The only thing worse then being blind
is having sight, but no vision.

Read last night that Sutton and Walshe are both lefties; Sutton even refusing to discuss his findings with Piers Ackerman because he thought that a conservative writer might be harmful to his findings.

The usual suspects can't use their usual disparaging of the right in this case. Criticism of Pascoe's fantasy is not political.

Foxy,

your statement:

"Bruce Pascoe, Peter Sutton, and Keryn Walshe may not be
in agreement." is a huge understatement.

Walshe and Sutton essentially called him a fraud and a liar.

One of the beauties of this site is that allows you and others to compare your own views and beliefs from the past to the present to see how accurate your past views were, to see past errors and hopefully avoid them in the present. But some just pretend not to notice their past errors.....

Foxy July 2019.."Historians, writers, archaeologists, academics, are now re-thinking Australia's perceptions of Indigenous land management. They are the ones arguing that the first Australians had complex systems of agriculture that went beyond the hunter-gatherer tag."

Foxy June 2021 ..."Sutton and Walshe provide extensive evidence to support their argument that classical Aboriginal society was a hunter-gatherer society..."

And utterly convinced of her truth both times.

Paul July 2019...."in fact the evidence is that at the time of European settlement, and there after, most tribes encountered by Europeans were settled people."

Paul June 2020...." No one denies Aboriginal people were not successful hunter/gathers,..."

Settled hunter/gathers??

I've now scanned the Suttoon book. As I said earlier, it doesn't really have anything in it that I didn't already know and didn't try to educate the Pascoe flying-monkeys about two years ago. The only thing I found interesting was just how many instances Sutton/Walshe found of Pascoe making-up and/or deliberately distorting sources for his claims.

As I had tried, back in 2019, to get others to read Sturt's diaries for an understanding of how wrong Pascoe was, I was pleased to see how Sutton/Walshe did the same thing in their book ie use Sturt (along with a few other first-hand accounts) to demonstrate that Pascoe was simply, laughably, wrong.

Although it has to be acknowledged that the damage Pascoe and those who fell for his rubbish have done to our 'understanding' of aboriginal life-styles pre-1788, is hardly funny

On page 12 of this discussion SteeleRedux summed
things up rather well for Is Mise.

I'll quote a bit of it here:

Steele partly stated:

" You prattled on with "Academics have debunked Dark
Emu". They haven't debunked anything - instead
they did a critique of the book and took issue with a
number of positions taken by Pascoe... Dark Emu wasn't
an academic paper. It was in part an invitation to
look at the historic journals of those in early contact
with Indigenous peoples ..."

I, like Steele have also taken up Pascoe's invitation and
"found some truly enlightening things which show our
Indigenous folk in a very positive light."

Oc course not everyone is capable of doing that.
Which is fair enough.

There are others though who show how their new
archaeological research investigates Dark Emus idea of
Aboriginal agriculture and villages. The following
link explains:

http://www.theconversation.com/friday-essay-how-our-new-archaeological-research-investigates-dark-emus-idea-of-aboriginal-agriculture-and-villages-146754

"Dark Emu wasn't
an academic paper. "

That's very true.

In fact it was a work of fiction....that some dills thought was an academic paper. Until that idiocy was no long viable, whereupon they forgot they every thought it was factual.

No matter what some people criticize, what they
interpret - words and ideas
can change the world - as Robin Williams stated.

Foxy,

Pascoe, and others, use the title ‘Professor’ to describe himself (him) this is also misleading as he was appointed as an ‘Enterprise Professor’ which requires no academic achievement whatsoever.

He and his supporters always leave out the ‘Enterprise’ bit.

Have you nothing to say about the abbreviated quotes in the book?

Is Mise,

The following two links may help:

http://www.insidestory.org.au/reading-bruce-pascoe/

And -

http://www.fvas.unimelb.edu.au/news/bruce-pascoe-appointed-enterprise-professor-in-indigenous-agriculture

A B.Ed is Pascoe's only qualification. He did teach for a while, but fishing and hobby farming seems to have been his main pursuit since - until he took up writing fiction.

Patrick McCauley ('Bruce Pascoe, the harm of a racist hoaxer') says that Pascoe has "out-hoaxed" Ern Malley, but in a more malicious and deceiving way.

Pascoe has misappropriated and misquoted history, fundamentally "re-imagining" 200 years of anthropology. He has "dismissed and completely ignored" any input or objections from traditional tribal people, and "bowdlerised" the diaries of settlers and explorers. "His target and the butt of his malevolent joke" writes McCauley, "are the innocent and mostly naive". 'Dark Emu' is a "racist cultural Marxist whitefella hoax", trying to convince descendants of Australian natives that their fellow countrymen wanted only to kill them, and destroy records of their forefathers' achievements.

Pretty arrogant for a whitey, telling them they got their culture all wrong! But it just follows on from the leftist hoaxes surrounding Aborigines back to the sixties.

Foxy,
Just answer the question instead of diverting with links that only emphasise what has been said.
I appreciate your second link, it emphasises the fact that
Pascoe is an appointee not an academic Professor.It must irk those who have done the hard slog to be appointed to a professorship to have those who have never done the rigorous study.to call themselves Professor and to have others do so as well.

Is Mise,

I answered you with the two links I gave.
You should be able to work things out
from them.

The second link clearly sums up Bruce Pascoe's
qualifications for the Professorship and why he
received the appointment. It's at the end of the link.
Have the patience to read it and stop asking me
to explain things to you. I'm not your teacher
or mother.

Foxy, Just answer the question or just s what you think about Pascoe selectively quoting and leaving pertinent pactS of the quotes out.

Not ou either agree with his deception s or you don’t.

IM,

Foxy can't answer the question about Pascoe's fraud as she is too invested in the fantasy to admit it even to herself.

Foxy,

Your link did show the complete lack of Pascoe's academic qualifications, but that he scores highly in the social justice wokeness stakes.

Pascoe's next book will be on pre-settlement aboriginal computing and their early space exploration plans

Dear Is Mise,

Mate happy to answer the question.

I haven't read the book but this is apparently one of the "selective quoting" they have seeminglyly taken issue with.

Pascoe: Paths led from this spot to almost every point of the compass, and walking along one came to a village consisting of nineteen huts...

Sturt: Paths led from this spot to almost every point of the compass, and walking along one to the left came to a village consisting of nineteen huts, but there were not any signs of recent occupation.

http://theconversation.com/book-review-farmers-or-hunter-gatherers-the-dark-emu-debate-rigorously-critiques-bruce-pascoes-argument-161877

If this is the standard of 'debunking' in the rest of the critique then Pascoe has little to be worried about.

Abridging quotes is hardly a hanging offence particularly if you provide direct references to source material, something Pascoe did for almost all of it.

What else do you have for us?

SR,

"Abridging quotes is hardly a hanging offence" as long as in doing so one does not substantially alter the message which Pascoe did. Even worse, Pascoe went further in modifying and extending the quotes to give a meaning that wasn't there.

Now that is academically a hanging offence.

shadowminister,

Bloody hell, how many times does this need to be repeated to get it through your thick skulls? Dark Emu wasn't an academic paper, it never purported to be one. It was a book that referenced many early explorer's quotes which challenged conventional wisdom, something it did magnificently.

That a couple of academics might have gotten their noses out of joint due to the popularity of the book, and decided to go through Dark Emu in attempt to take it apart by applying 'absolute academic rigor', is unsurprising. But you and they don't get to claim it's something it isn't.

A book written like this is always going to have more 'academic' faults than a paper or a book written by specialists in the field. It certainly something I can live with in this case.

Attacks on Dark Emu always seem to come with agendas and while this critique might not fit the hard right version it still smacks of one.

Steele,
That was a nice bit of selectively quoting a quote on your part and if ‘Dark Emu’ isn’t an academic work why has a version of it been introduced into schools?

On a general note it took only a fe w years for Aboriginal musicians to.adapt to western instruments, notably the guitar.
In 60,000 years of steady development they had only produced the clicking sticks and with the unwitting aid of termites, the didgeridoo.

I don't know what they do these days, but fiction was studied when I went to school. Dark Emu is in that category.

Dear Steele,

Thank You for your patience and your well reasoned
responses. However, from experience it is virtually
impossible to try to convince some people once
their minds are made up. I gave links that I thought
would make people look at things in a different
light and as you can see - all to no avail.
There's no point in continuing to go around in circles.

I think, as I've stated previously that Bruce Pascoe,
Peter Sutton and Keryn Walshe are doing important work
and I hope that it will continue in shining the light
on the Indigenous people's land management and history.

As for Bruce Pascoe's qualifications? As the links
indicated - he's a:

" recognised researcher and speaker in Indigenous
agriculture, food production and land management;
a former Adjunct Professor of Indigenous knowledge in
the Jumburna Institute for Indigenous Education and
Research at the University of Technology Sydney;
a board member of the Twofold Aboriginal Corporation,
Eden, and he received the 2019 UTS Vice Chancellor's
Social Justice and HUman Rights Award.

He also teaches at Melbourne University and he grows
Indigenous crops and bush food on his farm and again
works with young people and Indigenous folk.

He's full committed to his involvement with Indigenous
projects.

Once again Thank You for your posts.

SR,

How many times does it take to get through your thick skull that it was treated as an academic paper. Just read Foxy's links it was on the basis of this that he was appointed to academic positions at Melbourne Uni.

This book was also described as a work of nonfiction when it clearly was fictional.

Foxy,
You forgot to mention that he unjustifiably claims to be an Aboriginal

Now if I was to identify as such would you believe me?

Is Mise,

I would believe you - if you met the 3 criterias that are
required, as Bruce Pascoe does.

Back in 2019, SR was telling the late Loudmouth...
"You claim; "And he fabricates quotes from those early observers' notebooks. They did not write what he says they did."
Absolute crock of dog's vomit. Name one single instance of him fabricating anything in his book Dark Emu.
Have you read the thing either? Or are you another mindless parrot?
Just one single fabrication, that's all."

Now that myriad fabrications have been revealed, SR suddenly decides that its OK for Pascoe to make it up because his book wasn't an academic work.

It must be nice to have opinions that are so flexible that they can fit whatever is needed in the moment.

"If this is the standard of 'debunking' in the rest of the critique then Pascoe has little to be worried about."

Well its pretty clear that poor old SR just doesn't understand the issue here. Pascoe was trying to prove that aboriginals lived in permanent settlements. That's why he deleted the last part of Sturt's observation. It shows that this wasn't a permanent settlement. Pascoe was 'adjusting' quotes to suit his agenda. A search for the truth it wasn't.

But then those who fell for Pascoe's rubbish weren't interested in a search for the truth either.

Just a bit more on Sturt and those 'huts'.

If you read Sturt (well not you SR, but someone interested in the truth) you see him talking a bit about these 'huts'. But they weren't huts as we currently understand the term, more like what we'd call, these days, lean-to's - a couple of branches as uprights and bark attached for a bit of shelter. Sturt talks about how inadequate they were against any sort of inclement weather. Indeed he marvels that the natives remained in these constructions in the rain when they provided almost no protection from the rain.

Sutton talks about the problems with language and how the early Europeans, not having a term for the aboriginal 'dwellings' and tools, gave them names which rather over-stated their efficacy. So he calls lean-too's huts and then this is manipulated by those of a certain type to imply a permanent structure.

Sturt calling these lean-to's 'huts' gives us an overstated impression as to just how primitive they really were.

As I've stated, I was urging, back in 2019, anyone interested in the truth rather than Pascoe's fabrications, to read Sturt. There are any number of original sources that reveal the true nature of pre-European aboriginal 'culture', but I think Sturt is the best. It seems Sutton/Walshe agree.

Unfortunately, the search for truth is no longer a primary concern for many. The debate is about current politics, not the facts of the past. For too many, the facts of the past must be 'massaged' to suit the needs of the present.

Orwell nailed it...“Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.”

Foxy,
“He considers himself of Aboriginal ancestry, he has
records to prove it, and he is accepted by his
community as being Aboriginal.”

Fair enough, pity that he hasn’t shewn anyone, just maybe he cannot

Is Mise,

Or maybe he can but simply doesn't want to.
Perhaps he may think he has nothing to prove
and prefers to focus on more important issues
like teaching Indigenous land management
techniques.

Foxy,
Cut it out; Paul is the resident comedian.

Is Mise,

Laughter is and always will be
the best form of therapy.

What ! Now we have Friendlyfoxy & a Friendlypaul1405 ?

Individual,

There's more than just one dimension to most
people.

I assume that Pascoe has an honourary Aboriginal status as he has no clear lineage.

Shadow Minister,

Pascoe has met all of the 3 legal criterias in
order to have his lineage recognised.

Pascoe can lie about his culture as much as he likes without hurting anyone or anything. It's his lies about aboriginal culture and history that are the problem.

Shonkyminister,

I understand you can trace your linage back to the 17th century when Great Great Grandfather Thaddeus Shonky who lived in Pudding Lane started the 'Great Fire of London' that was just after Great Great Uncle Remus Shonky's flea infested pet rat escaped, setting off the Great Plague. Its been all down hill for the Shonky family ever since.

Another liar is Barnaby Joyce, who, on the very morning of his election as leader of the Nationals, said that he had no interest in the job. Liars to the left of us, liars to the right of us. That's what Australia is all about these days.

Dear mhaze,

You chirp.

"Now that myriad fabrications have been revealed, SR suddenly decides that its OK for Pascoe to make it up because his book wasn't an academic work."

I challenge Joe now you to show a single fabrication and you haven't managed it once.

Of course I have read Sturt's diaries and accounts. You obviously haven't.

How is this for a description of another village within them.

"On the 5th, the river led us to the southward and westward. Early in the day, we passed a group of seventy huts, capable of holding from twelve to fifteen men each. They appeared to be permanent habitations, and all of them fronted the same point of the compass. In searching amongst them we observed two beautifully made nets, of about ninety yards in length. The one had much larger meshes than the other, and was, most probably, intended to take kangaroos; but the other was evidently a fishing net. In one hut, the floor of which was swept with particular care, a number of white balls, as of pulverised shells or lime, had been deposited — the use of which we could not divine. A trench was formed round the hut to prevent the rain from running under it, and the whole was arranged with more than ordinary attention. We had not proceeded very far when we came suddenly upon the tribe to which this village, as it might be called, belonged."

Cont..

And how is this for an explanation of why a village might not be inhabited or relatively recently abandoned.

“from the moment I approached him, I thought there was a shade of anxiety upon his brow, and an expression of sorrow over his features, the cause of which did not originate with us. I could see in a moment, that his bosom was full even to bursting, and he seemed to claim at once our sympathy and our protection, although we were ignorant of that which oppressed him.”

"As his tribe gathered round him, the old chief threw a melancholy glance upon them, and endeavoured, as much as he could, to explain the cause of that affliction which, as I had rightly judged, weighed heavily upon him. It appeared, then, that a violent cutaneous disease raged throughout the tribe, that was sweeping them off in great numbers. He called several young men to Mr. Hume and myself, who had been attacked by this singular malady. Nothing could exceed the anxiety of his explanations, or the mild and soothing tone in which he addressed his people, and it really pained me that I could not assist him in his distress. We now discovered the use to which the conical substance that had been deposited with such unusual care in one of the huts, was applied. There were few of the natives present who were not more or less marked with it, and it was no doubt, indicative of mourning."

That you and others are so determined to ignore substantial accounts like this is very telling.

And here is a definition of what constitutes a village.

“A village is a small settlement usually found in a rural setting. It is generally larger than a "hamlet" but smaller than a "town". Some geographers specifically define a village as having between 500 and 2,500 inhabitants.”
http://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/village/

So here we have a first hand account of "seventy huts", each capable of housing "twelve to fifteen men" each, described as a "village" and of being a "permanent habitation", yet you and others will fight tooth and nail to discredit it, or to ignore it, or to say on this occasion Sturt was in error, or some such guff.

Where is the debunking you speak of?

Hi Steele,

I come from a village with a post office, a one room school house, two shops, two very small churches used once a month each, a railway station and about 10 houses. Gee, the Aboriginals were living in a mega city compare to, now I think of it my hamlet!

Now days the PO, school, railway station, shops, churches and most of the houses have gone, what's smaller than a hamlet.... a locality,. Just don't sound the same.

Steele,
Very interesting, but does not alter that Pascoe is not an Aboriginal and thus gained awards etc., under false pretences.

Anyone with a few skills in ancestral research follow the paper trail of Pascoe’s thoroughly European ancestry.

Is Mise,

What proof do you have to back up your claims?

Ken Wyatt, Minister for Indigenous Australians said he
found it "fascinating, " that identity seems to be broadly
accepted with every other group, while Indigenous
Australians are questioned.

" No one else gets that question," he said.

" A person who says 'I'm Italian,' (British, Irish, Indian,
et cetera) even though you know that they were born in this
country but the parents are Italian, et al, we accept that."

But in the Indigenous area- it is always been questioned
according to Wyatt. He puts the blame on the way the
governments used to categorize people in the past.

Perhaps it is time this stopped?

Is Mise,

What nationality do you consider yourself to be - and
what proof do you have?

Foxy,

I consider myself to be Australian and I have a birth certificate to prove it, I am of European descent, Scots, Irish, English and Welsh. in more modern times but I can trace my lineage back to.Russia, France, Germany, Italy and theViking lands among others.
I am also Irish as I have citizenship of that country by hereditary right and find that having an Irish passport is very useful in Europe.

What proof do I have that Pascoe is not Aboriginal ?
I have followed the trail through the BDMs, w

ith help from others more. experienced than myself,

SR,

"I challenge Joe now you to show a single fabrication and you haven't managed it once."

Well we didn't need to. You found one all by yourself, being the quote that Pascoe doctored concerning the unoccupied village.

Yes I know that you doctor quotes as matter of course and therefore don't consider others doing it a fabrication, but in the adult world....

Want another?
He has a photo of a “pointed dome house” to demonstrate the ingenuity of the aboriginals. Except its Melanesian.

And on it goes..... fractured history in the service of current politics.

"Of course I have read Sturt's diaries and accounts. You obviously haven't."

Well that's good. Of course when I previously pointed you to those diaries to correct your faulty history you refused to do so.

You will note, well not you but someone familiar with the issue, that all the quotes you've managed to ferret come from Sturt's S-E Australia expeditions. I, and plenty of others, have been at pains to point out that the natives in that region lived reasonably well. They didn't do all the things Pascoe claims, but life was pretty good although they were always one drought away from disaster. But the uninformed extrapolate that to the rest of the landmass and that's just bonkers and why Pascoe is wrong and by extension why his flying-monkeys are wrong.

Read Sturt's diaries on his South Australia trips to really see what a pitiful life these aboriginals lived.

Dear mhaze,

Lol.

Slippery as a butchers dick.

You posted: “If you read Sturt (well not you SR, but someone interested in the truth) you see him talking a bit about these 'huts'. But they weren't huts as we currently understand the term, more like what we'd call, these days, lean-to's - a couple of branches as uprights and bark attached for a bit of shelter.”

So I offered Sturt talking about 70 huts able to house between 12 to 15 men. In fact Sturt describes them further as “the floor of which was swept with particular care, … A trench was formed round the hut to prevent the rain from running under it, and the whole was arranged with more than ordinary attention.”

Hardly simple lean-tos were they as you have attempted to assert.

You also said: “Sutton talks about the problems with language and how the early Europeans, not having a term for the aboriginal 'dwellings' and tools, gave them names which rather over-stated their efficacy. So he calls lean-too's huts and then this is manipulated by those of a certain type to imply a permanent structure.”

The explorer himself said of the 70 huts “They appeared to be permanent habitations”

This isn't others 'manipulating language', rather it is the very words used by the bloke on the scene.

So it begs the question why, if you had read his diaries as you had claimed, did you ignore the very passages which supported Pascoe's position about some permanent habitations? I will tell you why, because you are absolutely blind to anything that diminishes your attack on him.

And for you to now be trotting out some weak arsed crap about 'Well it's SE Australia so it somehow doesn't count' is just inane and self deluding.

Look mate, your argument has been completely trashed. I will be reading Sutton and Walsh's book when I return. If they haven't discussed the 70 huts then they will be guilty of exactly the same thing they claim of Pascoe, ignoring evidence which contradicts their position.

It really isn't a good look.

Hi Foxy,

Maybe Issy is a member of the Aryan race.

Paul,
Aryan is not a race.but a llinguistic concept.

Hi Issy,

I'm part of the Human race, being part of a "linguistic concept" don't sound too flash. How many toes do you have on your right foot? When you fill out a form and the question asks NATINAILITY? What do you answer? LINGUISTIC CONCEPT, Just asking.....

BTW, there is only one "L" in linguistic" me thinks you need a copy of that "grumbly" thing you are always telling me to get. Just being pprecise!

Is Mise,

In order to be able to do full geneological searches
you would have to be privy to Pascoe's entire family history.
He has been accepted as being Aboriginal by meeting the
3 necessary criterias. Any more questioning on this subject
is irrelevant.

cont'd ...

Is Mise,

Here's Pascoe's response to Andrew Bolt:

http://www.crikey.com.au/2020/02/07/bruce-pascoe-responds-andrew-bolt/

Hi Foxy,

Thanks for the link, Aboriginality is something to be based on your own acceptance and experience, along with meeting the criteria. A bit of my own history, my first cousin has established Aboriginality and now identifies as being Aboriginal, so she tells me. When she told me to "do the same", I simply told her I don't identify as Aboriginal and have no inclination to do so. How did this come about, my mothers maternal grandfather was Aboriginal in some part. I don't doubt that as her maternal grandmother was of Mauritian ancestry and fairly dark (from her photo looks "aboriginal") it was a "natural" marriage for the times. My cousin having lived in the central west of NSW is closer to many of the Aboriginal rellies than I, so she can identify with them better than me, having not seen many since childhood.

I once read a book, the name escapes me, based on a true story about a white girl who grew up in 19th century America with the Nez Perce' Indians and her conflict with her identity and emotions once returning to the world of the European. She is horrified by the barbarity of the White mans ways, and towards "her" people. The Nez Perce' had not kidnaped her, but rather rescued her from anther tribe that had killed her parents etc. To the White man that made no difference, they were all savages. Given the nobility of the Nez Perce' one can only wonder who were the real savages.

Hi Issy,

Do you identify with being Scottish? I bet if we every have a beer together I'll find out how "Scottish" you are when it comes your turn to shout!

I had an old mate years ago, he was Scottish, his name was Ronald McDonald, I kid you not. He always had a few "scotches at the club" after work. I once asked Ronnie what "scotch" he drank. He said "well lad, I drink Bond-7 here. I said Ron that's cheap Australian whiskey!..."I lad, but its 10 cents a glass cheaper than Johnny Walker!" so he informed me. True story.

Dear Paul,

It is interesting about one's ancestries.

I'm still involved in trying to trace my own.
And I am consistently surprised by what I'm
learning. However, as you point out - I too
have discovered things that I can't identify with.
I consider myself an Australian first and foremost.
Lithuania I would like to visit as a tourist - is
all. I believe it's quite beautiful. Perhaps one
day. At the moment we have too much on our plates.
And frankly I'd like to see Australia first.

Paul,
I’m trying to cope with a new Apple and the touch pad is a bit hard for someone who learned to type on an ancient Remington!

Foxy,
Crikey, and not a shred of evidence.

Is Mise,

Not a shred of evidence?

None that you can see - which is as it should be.
MYOB!

I have wondered why Pascoe hasn't taken action against some of his critics. His main critic, Peter O'Brien, author of 'Bitter Harvest' also wonders why.

"And by the way, why hasn’t Professor’ Pascoe sued me? Let me repeat for the record: he is a knave and charlatan who has profited mightily from a grand deception. The fact that I haven’t heard from his lawyers speaks volumes".

"Paul,
I’m trying to cope with a new Apple"

Issy, Issy, Issy! How many times have I told you, not with your gums, stick to a nice mushy pear!

You being Scottish and all this might help.

http://www.thepennyhoarder.com/save-money/what-to-do-with-overripe-pears/

BTW, what happened to the Commodore-64? Did you run out of steam?

Paul.
I gave the Commodore to a girl in the pistol club
I’m using the ute that I bought with my Trump winings

Hi again Issy,

That went over your head, The Commodore-64 was about the first computer on the mass market in the early 80's, it had an 8 bit processor, monochrome, 5 1/4 floppy drive, nothing flash by todays standards, a bit like you.

BTW; is the ute you bought with your Trump winnings, used to tow around the ute you bought with your Morrison winnings. The rumour has it, you won big on Barnyard Joy the other day when he edged out Betty the Cow for the National Party top dog job. Did you really get 33/1 Barnyard from bookie ScumO'? With all that bonking (remember Turnbull's Bonking Ban) Barn's going to need the extra dosh with a top job, like being Deputy Dog. Is it true too much sex makes you face look like 'Beetroot Man'. In Trumps case we know thinking about too much sex turned him into 'Orange Man'.

'Paul
You’re right it did go right over lol

SR,

It seems you've misunderstood the entire issue. The evidence against Pascoe wasn't about his claims as to the living arrangements in S-E Australia. This was well know and largely accepted way before Pascoe decided to spin his yarns. Indeed it goes way back to at least the 1970s with 'Triumph of the Nomads' where it was observed that these S-E Australian groups lived lives comparable to the poor of London. I've mentioned this often over the years of these debates.

The problems with Pascoe were his claims about agriculture in aboriginal society and his extrapolation of living conditions of those in S-E Australia to the whole of Australia. This is where his arguments fell apart and this is where he saw the need to fabricate and falsify.

And you, as is your wont, do the same. Just because there were some groups along the Murray-Darling basin who had relatively sedentary lives doesn't mean it proves it happened all over. Whatismore, the idea that some structures were permanent doesn't mean they were permanently occupied.

Reading Sturt, you see that most of the structures were flimsy and of little value to the aboriginals who abandoned them easily. Reading Sturt on his later expeditions beyond the Murray basin, you see the contrast between the facts and Pascoe's made up fantasies.

Can't help but notice SR that after making a big to-do about not finding any fabrications in Pascoe, as soon as a few (of the many) are pointed out you suddenly drop the issue. SOP for SR.

The issue is that Pascoe deliberately falsified information to prove a point. Nothing he says subsequently can be trusted.

It seems that there was a motion, moved by Mark Latham, in the NSW Parliament to remove ‘Dark Emu’ from schools; defeated.

Hannah McGlade, Aboriginal activist and Human Rights adviser has described the book as ideological, subjective and offensive to Aboriginal people.

Issy,

Latham lazes around in the NSW Legislative Council (upper house), a member of your brothers in arms, the racists One Nation and Shooters and Hooters. Any motion moved by that useless slug if carried is not binding, so if Latham wants to grandstand so be it. What did he want it replaced with, Mein Kampf?

Paul1405,
In 1970, the Aborigines were said to have been around for 40,000 years. Then it became 50,000, then 60,000 then 65,000 & for the past year or so it has become as many as 80,000 years.
Is this a case of "how time flies when you're having fun" ?

Paul,
Nothing to say about Hannah McGlade?

Issy,
Hannah McGlade entitled to her opinion.

Warren Mundine, genuine descendant of aboriginality, has added his scorn to Dark Emu saying it should be banned. As a man who grew up in Aboriginal communities, and as one of those who checks claims to aboriginality, he says that there is no evidence of any such aboriginality in Pascoe, and no evidence of anything that Pascoe has written.

Mundine has asked well qualified academics who share his view why they haven't spoken out against the Dark Emu fantasy to be told that they don't want to be branded as racists and have their employment threatened.

Great country we are living in! The whole sham is only being discussed now because the two academics who have had the guts to speak up are FROM THE LEFT

<<Mr Mundine told Sky News host Peta Credlin ‘Dark Emu’ contained “complete exaggerations” and it was “verging on the fraudulent”.>>

Uncle Warren didn't provide any evidence, but will do anything to curry favour with conservative elements of the Liberal Party. The bloke has Liberal endorsement at the next federal election, after he failing to gain support in the Labor Party. Nothing like a bloke with convictions.

There is no doubt that Paul 1405, getting more strident and bizarre with every post, views everything via politics, never common-sense, and never with the realisation that everybody else does not make decisions and express opinions based on the ideology of some damn political party. And everyone, except him and his extremists Greens, are always wrong, simply because they are not Greens. Anyone to the right of centre is bad.

If others referred to one of his favourite Leftist aboriginal-identfiers as "Uncle Warren", 1405 would be shrieking 'racism'.

Paul
Mundine didn’t need to provide evidence, Pascoe has done that himself .

Pauliar,

You are being a little racist. Mundine is a traitor to his race because he is conservative? Whereas Pascoe is an honorary aborigine because he tells convenient lies?

Uncle warren,
Paul1405,
You told us you were 68 & here you call a bloke who is 4 years your junior & quite clearly not a member of your family Uncle ?

No, not at all Shonky, Ken Wyatt, an Aboriginal, and a Liberal is an extremely competent exponent of the Aboriginal cause. The conservative wing of the Liberal party headed by the likes of Bolt, Jones and the mouth piece Credlin look for any opportunity to put the black fella down. Mundine formally of the Labor Party is still "suspect" in their eyes, attacking Pascoe and his book might have appealed to Mundine as a way of establishing his bona fides with the racists right in the Liberal Party. It looks like he gets a tick of approval from you and others of the forums extreme right.

Indy, a word from a 'Concrete Jungle Bunny' like me, uncle is often used by people of colour, just like aunty to refer to elders within. It could also be used to refer to an Uncle Tom type character. Mundine would have done well to give specific examples of falsehood on Pascoe's part, rather than make broad generalized statements.

a 'Concrete Jungle Bunny' like me,
Paul1405,
There you go again ! Actually I don't think you'd qualify for that term if it is indeed as racist as you claim !
I think you're just a self-made racist which simply serves your Anarchist character !

Paul1405,
I have lived close to 40 years in remote communities so, I'm fully aware when the terms Aunty/Uncle come in handy !

BS to racist number 1405. Uncle Warren is a barely concealed reference to 'Uncle Tom', a term of abuse by black and white racists to describe a black person who has a balanced outlook on black/white relations, but who is accused by the black and white racists of selling out his race.

1405 is OLO's most ignorant racist.

Dear mhaze,

Bollocks to that mate.

You were the one insinuating Aboriginal housing were universally rude 'lean-to's' saying "But they weren't huts as we currently understand the term, more like what we'd call, these days, lean-to's - a couple of branches as uprights and bark attached for a bit of shelter."

You then back tracked to say this didn't apply to SE Australia.

The bulk of modern day Australia's population resides from Sydney to Melbourne effectively SE Australia. Why do you think this wouldn't apply to pre-colonialist history? The area with the most abundant natural resources would obviously support the greatest number of people.

Pascoe might be called out of giving too much emphasis on certain passages form journals but both sides can be accused of that. However you still haven't furnished any example of him fabricating a single thing.

ttbn,

I don't know what motivates Mundine to cosy up to the bigoted right of the Liberal Party. I know Mundine got his nose out of joint when he missed Labor pre-selection some years back, for the safe NSW state seat of Heffron (which takes in parts of Redfern). Mundine thought he was entitled and it was a slap in the face from Labor when he missed out. He ran off to the Liberal Party, where he pops up now and then with his "me to" remarks. The Liberals gave Mundine a shot at the federal seat of Gilmore in 2019, where he delivered a 16% swing against them.

Rather than appearing on Murdoch's far right Sky News with Ms Bigot and delivering a spray at Pascoe, Mundine would do well to put out a paper outing his objections to 'Dark Emu', that's assuming he has read it, but like the far right here, probably not.

Pauliar,

Probably because he was rejected by the bigoted left whingers.

Your assumption that Mundine because he is Aboriginal should reject the facts and adhere to the left whinge doctrine is also racist.

BTW ttbn, didn't you say a few weeks back that you wouldn't be reading or replying to the gang of three (Foxy, Steele and myself) on the Forum. Gee, nothing like a man of his word.

Wrong again shonky, "Mundine because he is Aboriginal should reject the facts". Nothing to do with race, if Mundine has objections, which he is entitled to have, then put the facts on the table as he sees them. That seem a reasonable thing to do when you go public on matters like this. Facts are not something you folk of the hard right are comfortable with, although you are very good at making up your own.

'War and Peace' what a terrible history book. All copies should be given to ttbn for his book bonfire for unapproved literature.

Nothing to do with race,
Paul1405,
With sick, little you everything is about Race. Race fuels your insipid hatred & warped mentality !

Pauliar,

Posting utter bollocks again? I don't remember you ever putting up facts on the forum and the rest of the left whingers try hard to ignore them.

That two leading academics who have reviewed the book and published the errors and distortions by Pascoe means that Mundine can comment without the need to perform the research himself.

War and Peace is a fictional novel and does not pretend to be otherwise. Dank Emu is a fictional novel that pretends to be genuine research.

Unlike you shonkyminster I have read Pascoe's 'Dark Emu', I am waiting on a library copy of the Sutton and Walshe book 'Farmers or Hunter Gatherers' when I have read Sutton and Walshe I'll be in a position to form an opinion. Unlike you and others of the extreme right on this forum, and I suspect Mundine as well, who postulate an opinion without availing yourself of the facts. Your line is; If it slams a darkie I'm all for it.

I said Mundine was doing his "me to" line just to curry favour with the extreme right of the Liberal Party. After delivering a thumping swing of 16% against the party in Gilmore, I'd say Mundine is on shaky ground.

Pauliar,

You deserve a Noddy badge to go with your kiddy's meal I wasn't sure that you could read books without pictures. As for me reading it, I normally skip books that are ideological bollocks.

If you want to imply that anyone that doesn't lap up this bullsh1t is a racist then you are more stupid than you normally appear and have no place in decent society.

There's no real point in discussing Aborigine history until they finished inventing it !

shonkyminister, you cannot equate reading the diatribe of Beat Up Bolt in the Murdoch gutter press, or watching Crazy Credlin on the Murdoch channel with reading Pascoe's 'Dark Emu' or the other book as for that matter, no Noddy badge for you my friend. Its so nice that Credlin had a dark chap on show, and how the Coalition have one or two dark people in their party, it shows how "inclusive" they are. You never know the Coalition may soon have a woman in the party, how inclusive, instead of an old reprobate like Barnyard.

Just on books; "I (shonkyminister) normally skip books that are ideological bollocks." I suppose you had to read 'Mein Kamph' to determine it was not such ideological bollocks. Its certainly not on the ttbn bonfire list foe unapproved literature like 'Dark Emu' is.

Pauliar,

I wouldn't compare credible Credlin to fraudulent Pascoe.

How's the pedogreens token Muslim? She got done for theft, assault and homophobia, not counting the two convicted paedophiles.

shonkyminister,

Your remind me of the cat, once cornered, throwing out a limp pow in defence from the raging Rottweiler standing menacingly over the poor mange animal. You being the cat, I being the Rottweiler.

Ha, ha, my best political friend is a Muslim female senator, no tokenism there.

The mob from the extreme right, you included, the other want-a-be far right posters as well, add in Bolt and co, Mundine looks like he's trying to get in there for a pat on the head. You lot would have some credibility if only you could honestly say you have actual read 'DARK EMU'. You're passing judgement from a point of ignorance, not having read anything, other than cometary from biased sources, and simply regurgitating those opinions.

I read 'Dark Emu' it didn't change my opinion that pre colonisation Aboriginal people were predominantly hunter/gathers. What it did do was offer evidence, you and others if you ever read the book can dispute that evidence, that Aboriginal people had another string to their bow in the form of agriculture.

When I have read Sutton and Walshe I'll be in a position to give an opinion on their work. But till then, unlike you, I'm not going to speak from a position of ignorance.

Pauliar,

You remind me of a turd. Ugly, smelly, of no use to anyone and simply needs to be flushed.

As for the dank emu, since Sutton and Walshe (who know 1000% more than you) have described it as a piece of crap, reading the book would be a waste of time. That you have read it has done nothing to your gross ignorance.

shonkyminister,

I take your "turd" remark as a compliment coming from an anonymous fascists such as yourself. You are like the German Nazi's who found "scientists" that proved their racial theories. Of course you are going to take the word of two "scientists" who by all indication support you blinked view that Aboriginals were nothing but sub humans scratching around in the dirt for 60,000 years, and at the same time dismiss other learned opinion that agrees with Pascoe.

Pauliar

What a lot of crap. Perhaps I should say that you are like the paedophile greens that raped children.

The moment you start comparing me to Nazi's you are clearly showing yourself to be a desperate fwit.

shonkyminister, very touchy!

There were no "paedophile greens that raped children" unless you want to name them, you are a liar and should be made to put up or shut up. Its on the public record that some German scientists cooperated with the Nazi regime to prove their racial theories. Heinrich Himmler wanted proof of Aryanism, so the scientists accommodated his wishes. They even proved the Japanese were Aryan, they just didn't have the blond hair and blue eyes.

Paul,
You forgot the Indians, they were also Aryans of convenience to the Nazis.

Nah Issy,

Indians were Europeans when it came to the White Australia Policy, so said the Indians. But...........

Pauliar,

Wrong again https://www.dw.com/en/pedophilia-accusations-haunt-green-politician/a-16791213

Plus the two paedophiles in the Australian greens.

Secondly, the Australian pedogreens are far more like the nazi scientists you describe as the pedogreens seem to be overwhelmingly concerned about race.

Shadowminister,

Again your preoccupation with the subject of paedophilia and raping children is disturbing.

That you have to link to a story on a Greens member of the German Parliament to inject your talking point it telling.

The high propensity of the religious and conservative hierarchy in our conservative religious orders here in Australia has been exposed through a Royal Commission. That seems never to get a mention from you.

Why do you think that is?

Hi Steele,

Poor shadowminister has an unhealthy preoccupation with paedophiles, particularly concerning the Greens for some reason. The sod makes this continual reference to these "pedogreens", by now hundreds of such remarks on the forum. Not long ago he went to the extreme of claiming I was one of these "pedogreens" he imagines.

I must say I had a bit of a chuckle to myself when I read SM's comment; "I normally skip books that are ideological bollocks". I thought that was a contradiction in terms, how does one know if a book is ideological bollocks until one has read the book, ttbn told me so. A bit like saying "I hate the taste of chocolate ice-cream, although I've never actually tasted it, but I just hate it on principle." Other than the occasional Marvel comic and the 'Beat Up' Bolt column in his subscription 'Telecrap' I doubt SM reads much at all preferring to get his "news" lounging in front of the TV in his Telly-Tubby jarmies watching his favourite commentators on Sky.

SR and Pauliar,

When there is paedophilia or even vague innuendo of abuse in the Catholic church then you can't shut up, but as soon as it is in the Greens then you go into deep denial.

It sounds as though there is a great similarity between the Catholic Church and greens in this aspect.

Play dirty shonkyminister,

Accrued Paedophile in the LIBERAL PARTY!

Alasdair Webster was elected to the Australian House of Representatives for the seat of Macquarie as a member of the LIBERAL PARTY. Webster faced 14 charges including buggery and indecent assault from his time as a superintendent at the notorious Daruk Training School near Windsor, NSW. Media coverage of Webster's case triggered "broad public condemnation" and online hatred, including calls for him to be hanged and castrated, his lawyer Manny Conditsis said while arguing before the court for a suppression order in 2020.Following his 10-year stint at Daruk, Webster went on to hold the seat of Macquarie for the LIBERAL PARTY for nine years, and was awarded an Order of Australia medal by the Howard Government.

No, this is not the Siberian Liberal Party or some such foreign mob, its a home grown member of the AUSTRALIAN LIBERAL PARTY now headed by Scott Morrison.

Any comment shonky.

Paul,

Considering there are 2 Green Paedophiles that have been recently convicted and the best you can do is to dig up something from nearly 1/2 a century ago, you must be really desperate. I can't find anything as to whether this guy was convicted.

Still 2-0 against the Greens. Brown eye Bob still practises buggery.

In 2008 the accused paedophile Alasdair Paine Webster was awarded an Order of Australia by his Liberal mate John Howard for his "work in welfare with children" Was that a sick joke?

Also shonky, I assume given your political slant you are an ardent supporter of those Nazi's in the National Party? 20 members of the National Party had alleged links to white supremacist and alt-right groups, Nazi's for short. Shonky are you a National Party member? According to the party's state director Ross Cadell it was impossible to track down and get rid of all members with extremist views, Nazi's for short.

I withdraw any unsavoury comments about the Liberal Party, a moderate centre right party on the Australian political spectrum. I personally know several Liberals, and they are decent folk and don't deserve to be linked to such comment. I realize the far right extremist the anonymise shadowminister is off the planet, and possibly mentally deranged, to ratty and extreme to be taken seriously. To associate such a lunatic with the moderate Liberals is unfair.

Paul,

You are a disgusting animal. I'm keeping your comments on a clipboard.

Paulnazi,

As the pedogreens are socialists and Jew-haters they are the closest to the national socialists AKA the nazi.

So Paul the nazi bigot. There we go.

Shadow,

You are a disgusting animal. I'm keeping your comments on the back of the toilet door!

Are you a friend of Jim Saleam? Just asking.

Pauliar,

Are you friends with Jonathan Doig or other senior green paedophiles? Just asking.