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The Forum > General Discussion > India and Covid-19

India and Covid-19

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Last year there were many who believed the answer to the covid-19 pandemic was to "let it rip". The theory peddled was that with time, and the virus being not that serious, a few mostly expendable old folks would perish as they were about to do anyway, and then with "herd immunity" things would return to "normal". As Donald Trump said "miraculously the virus will disappear", I believe early last year the tiny affluent country of Sweden was the shining example of what can be achieved with a "let it rip" open door virus policy, well that was a bit of a disaster, but no worries with only 10 million people involved tiny Sweden paid the price. Moving ahead to late April 2021 and the poor nation of India with a population of 1,400 million desperate people, and a low class fragile health system we can now see what destruction an out of control virus can reap on such a large number of desperate people.

I don't think I need to say more, as the facts are clearly before us in the disaster that is India. For those conservatives among us who advocated a "let it rip" style virus approach, along with a deluded band of mostly conservative politicians, you were wrong then and you are still wrong today if you believe such nonsense!
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 29 April 2021 5:33:56 AM
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.. you were wrong then and you are still wrong today if you believe such nonsense!
Paul1405,
I wonder how you'd twist your words if this happened in a Caucasian society ?
Posted by individual, Thursday, 29 April 2021 8:09:58 AM
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Poor India. It is dreadful what's happening over there.
Australia is helping as much as it can. But what a tragedy
for the country.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 29 April 2021 8:55:16 AM
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Poor India.
Foxy,
Well, it's more a case of people of India having bred themselves into this !
It's actually a miracle that this situation didn't eventuate years ago.
Could COVID-19 be God-sent to put a stop to the excesses of such proportion ? The Bible tells us to expect it !
In Western countries we have under-breeding & in others over-breeding !
Can you see what I'm getting at ? Everything is simply too unbalanced !
Sadly, the suffering always falls to the poor, not to those who cause the imbalance !
Posted by individual, Thursday, 29 April 2021 2:50:23 PM
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Paul you make a major mistake in your assumption that conservatives will all have the same opinion on this, or any other topic. Yes you are part of the hard left where opinions must all conform with the edict, but conservatives are more individual than that. We often have different opinions on matters.

I am not really committed, but do feel that the approach of both Oz & the Kiwis has been pretty much right. In fact I would have closed international boarders much sooner, & would limit passenger numbers to Oz much more than we are currently doing, at least until a treatment, effective immunisation system, or a much more effective quarantine system was in effect. Morrison is wrong in believing it is effective enough. One can only wonder if he has mates with large inner city hotels who require support with custom, if only quarantine.

I am less sure about closed state boarders, & radical lock downs, but can see how this does make it much easier to limit those who are not taking the problem seriously, so don't disagree seriously.

One has to feel for the Indians. I wonder if they have enough space in their larger cities to practice safe distancing. I would not like to have to ride one of their trains, or Japanese trains today.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 29 April 2021 3:09:23 PM
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Now let me see if I've got Paul's logic (for want of a better term) right. He's saying that let-it-rip policies don't work while lockdown policies do work. And his proof of that is what is currently happening in India.

India? A country which has totally accept the lockdown myth and has never followed a let-it-rip policy.

I could try to explain how a country that doesN'T follow a let-it-rip policy can't possibly be proof that such a policy is wrong, but I suspect Paul isn't open to understanding that. Or I could try to explain how a country that has more lockdowns than you can shake a stick and still has rampant infections, is proof that lockdowns don't work. But I suspect Paul isn't open to understanding that, either.

I've provided more than enough evidence over the duration to demonstrate that lockdowns don't alter the outcome. But for some, the politics trump logical thought and they'll continue to believe lockdowns work right up until the time when their gurus tell them differently.

On a side note, I'd again point out that no country adopted or advocated a let-it-rip policy. This is just a fantasy that Paul has convinced himself is fact.
Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 29 April 2021 3:19:52 PM
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Hasbeen,

You ought not confuse the national quarantine with the lockdowns. They are two separate policies. One stops all potential viral carries from entering the country while the other closes down most economic activity with the country. They are not the same thing although their proponents have similar aims.

Aust/NZ could have easily implemented a policy that closed the country off from the rest of the world while allowing most economic activity within the country to continue. That indeed is the policy I and many others advocated. And I suspect the outcome would have been the same.

Remember also that closing the nation to the outside world was a policy available to a select few only. No country in Europe could do it, nor any country in the Americas, Asia or Africa
Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 29 April 2021 3:27:04 PM
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Work out the percentage of the population dying; work out how many people die from all causes in India every day, all the time, covid or no covid, and quit being hysterical. Also be aware that India's public health system is and always has been, almost non-existent: 1.2% of GDP.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 29 April 2021 4:07:13 PM
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CAPATAILSTS are killing millions! Despite billions having been poured into vaccine development by world governments.

By holding on to so called "intellectual property" and restricting vaccine production, multinational drug companies are placing a death sentence on millions, particularly in the third world!
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 29 April 2021 8:55:38 PM
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Paul

It's very funny to see you sheeple obediently bleating what your manipulators have brainwashed into you.

You don't know what you're talking about.
Posted by Cumberland, Thursday, 29 April 2021 10:26:07 PM
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These vaccines are a joke.

If they don't stop you from catching the virus, & don't stop you passing it on to others, just what the hell are we paying for?
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 29 April 2021 11:12:19 PM
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Paul1405,
Whilst I fully agree that the big Capitalists are undeserving of the massive profits, I also have to acknowledge that the likes of you i.e. people with your mentality, would perish without Capitalism's flow-ons' that people like you claim to rightfully demand !
Posted by individual, Friday, 30 April 2021 12:00:56 AM
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Cumberland,

You offer no rebuttal to what I claim, nothing at all, just the standard flunky line; "You don't know what you're talking about." I'm willing to hear your argument I'm claiming large multinational drug companies who took billions in government money to develop covid-19 vaccines are now withholding production. The supply is being manipulated by these multinationals based on a countries ability to pay, their aim being to maximise profits for the already mega rich Capitalist owners. If these greedy multinationals were to release the so called "intellectual property" they are holding over these vaccines then production world wide would quadruple and millions of lives would be saved. The only losers would be these big multinational drug companies who would take a hit to their bottom line.

Indy,

As you well know, I am not a Communist, just a moderate progressive socialists believing in a liberal style democracy with its mix of Capitalism and Socialism. I am in favour of Capitalist making a reasonable profit, but in this case its blatant exploitation and manipulation with the goal of maximising profits for a few of the underserving mega rich, whilst millions will die for the sake of it.

Hassy,

With enough people immunised in the community, then herd immunity is achieved, plus the benefit of those vaccinated at worse developing a low level infection which is not life threating for the majority.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 30 April 2021 6:49:59 AM
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maximising profits for a few of the underserving mega rich, whilst millions will die for the sake of it.
Paul1405,
Next time you walk through a Western society shopping mall, take note how many of those Mega rich are obese & tattooed slobs complaining because there are fewer than 20 types of milk or fewer than 15 types of Tomato sauce !
Posted by individual, Friday, 30 April 2021 7:12:48 AM
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Paul1405

You think government is the ultimate suptremo indispensible health decision-maker, remember?

You're showing complete ignorance or confusion.

Which?
Posted by Cumberland, Friday, 30 April 2021 4:54:43 PM
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Well Cumberland,

You cannot rebuke what I have said, just ask a silly ideological based question about my thinking in relation to government. Capitalists killing millions is nothing new, they have been doing so for aeons, withholding food and lifesaving medicines etc from the poor of the world, all based on their ability to pay. Much of the worlds over production of these vital comedies is down to government investment in R and D. Once picked up by Capitalists they are exploited through a so called "free market" to maximise profits. The poor of the world miss out and die, that's just the reality. Australia is as guilty of this practice as any other developed nation.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 1 May 2021 5:36:24 AM
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"You cannot rebuke [rebut?] what I have said".

Just like you couldn't rebut my pointing out that your original assertion about let-it-rip policies in India was bonkers.

Don't rebut. Just pretend to not notice. Good idea.
Posted by mhaze, Saturday, 1 May 2021 8:30:01 AM
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Paul1405

I don't need to refute what you're saying, because you're failing to recognise the extent to which it is all an artefact of governmental action.

That's why you're trying to slither out of my question - because the ideological silliness is all your own.

According to you, government has a responsibility, and a superior competence to make decisions about health, right?

Yes? What's your answer? Don't evade. Don't slither. Just answer the question.

And it includes the right and power to suppress people's freedom of choice to buy and sell safer and more effective *generic* medicines, in which no question of intellectual property arises, by legislation and policy, i.e. by threatening people with being imprisoned? Yes? That's your ideology, right?

Answer.

So by doing so, governments have enabled, facilitated and enforced the situation you describe, where corporations have a corrupt interest in promoting GENERIC medicines that are LESS safe and effective than the ones their governmental enablers JUST HAPPENED to suppress in favour of the big corporations, for some mysterious reason, that your theory TOTALLY FAILS to explain.

So since governments, according to you, must be presumed to be of superior competence in making health decisions, and since the corporations stood to profit unjustly from the corrupt licence that governments granted them, then you admit that your theory and ideolgoy are completely invalid and incompetent, and THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE COMPLAINING ABOUT - that your theory doesn't make sense. All you have said is just a jumble of confusion and self-contradiction, backed up by evasion.

See what you have failed to understand is that prices are a market phenomenon, and arise out of the interplay of people's subjective wants in enterng the market, and supply and demand. There is NO WAY that government can know, or show any objective criterion, by which it distinguishes the market process from the alleged fair, or just, or reasonable price.

So you're confused. You SAY you want "liberal democracy", but what you're actually supporting is totalitarian fascism, and then complaining about what your brainwashed ideology produces.
Posted by Cumberland, Saturday, 1 May 2021 10:45:02 AM
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"with its mix of capitalism and socialism."

So by what objective criterion do you figure out
1. whether any given market transaction is within the remit of capitalism?
2. what is the difference between the market price and the alleged "reasonable" price?
in any given case?

Prices do not form by a process of consulting some anonymous self-opinionated nobody on the internet named Paul1405.

How are the capitalists, or the consumers, to know in advance whether their actions in buying or selling, are going to meet with Your Serene Eminences Approval?

And what human action does government NOT have a right to control, according to you?
Posted by Cumberland, Saturday, 1 May 2021 10:58:50 AM
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mhaze,

Lockdowns do work, my great mate in India locked down his estates before any Government authorities did in their jurisdictions.
Though for him it was easy as he is, in reality, a dictator.

He stockpiled all necessities and forbad leaving the estates on pain of not being allowed back in the foreseeable future, and forbad all entry.
He has the manpower (and the arms) to enforce his decisions and no one on the estates has contracted the virus.

Admittedly this is an extreme case of isolationism.

I have lost acquaintances in Delhi and Mumbai and a couple of close friends, because despite the lockdowns there is considerable unavoidable contact.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 3 May 2021 12:29:23 PM
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In my area the delivery trucks of the grocery chain I use for home delivery, internet ordered food are all driven by Indians. I presume they are Sikhs, as they all wear turbans. They have done a good job, & a couple have become friends. One recently brought his son along to have a look at my remote control planes.

However with the current virus situation in India, & the frequency of Indians flitting "home" for a visit, I am becoming slightly concerned they these drivers are much more likely to have contact with an infection source. Evidently our bureaucrats have been less than diligent in minimising these visits, & have not been protecting our safety as they should have.

I am considering changing my grocery supplier so as to avoid contact with this possible source of infection.

It really is so annoying that we can't trust our extremely well paid bureaucrats to ever get anything properly right.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 4 May 2021 1:28:18 PM
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Yes, Hasbeen, I hear you.

However according to the high expertise of Dr Yeadon, formerly of Pfizer, and whose video I posted in the Forrum, the whole idea that healthy carriers can infect healthy non-carriers is a piece of blatanty misinformation.

Covid is not some magical exception to the general rules of pathology. Yes, *sick* people can infect healthy people. And healthy carriers - asymptomatic people - can't infect healthy people. Covid is no exception to this general rule. It is, after all, a species of flu. There may be a small window where someone 'coming down with' it can spead it without knowing.

But basically the premise of the masking mandates, the lockdowns, and covid policy in general is this piece of facile propaganda and misinformation. It was based on a handful of unscientific anecdotes, which have never been subjected to critical scientific scrutiny.

But for some mysterious reason, you won't hear about that on the ABC sevel o'clock news.

There are two plagues. The plague of absolutist control freaks totalitarians who have a conflict of interest with the sane, non-lunatic part of the population at whose expense they violate their liberties. This includes their propaganda arm like the ABC who belong on the gallows with them.

And there's the plague of docile sheeple who obedientily swallow down the propaganda these totalitarian fasicsts are brainwashing into them, by the unarticulated ever-present assumption that government has the right to do anything it wants, no matter how abusive or unconstitutional, that they are all-caring, all-knowing and all-capable, and that they are our saviour and redemption.
Posted by Cumberland, Tuesday, 4 May 2021 2:07:30 PM
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... well paid bureaucrats to ever get anything properly right.
Hasbeen,
There have been & I have no doubt there are many but they get ousted as soon as they show any sign of efficiency that could back-fire on the inefficient !
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 4 May 2021 6:25:11 PM
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