It is very important for educational institutions to develop their own setup in terms of how they work.

They should be free from the Government, Politicians, media and a mob mentality in terms of their workings, subjects on offer and what methods are used in terms of teaching.

There should be more trust put in teachers, lecturers and those with skills all within a learning timeframe.

Outside of that timeframe is homework, with some seeing this as a form of slavery. It takes away ones time from doing things they find mentally stimulating, re learning. I undertook piano lessons outside of school for example as my school simply didn't provide such an option.

Some question if homework is even legal - like the US.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-case-against-homework-20-02-2009/

It has been a long time coming, but for people to learn, education must change, at all stages of life and when one is forced to attend a school, then people as a basic human right deserve better.

Think of the positives. COVID-19 could be gone sooner rather than later! A second rate education system will not help people - but improved learning will!

Australia's universities are now as much migrant processing centres as they are institutions of higher education where the degree for an international student is a pathway to a permanent residency visa.

Mr Opinion said- "Australia's universities are now as much migrant processing centres as they are institutions of higher education where the degree for an international student is a pathway to a permanent residency visa."

Answer- I would put it stronger than that- they are "more" migrant processing centres than centres of development for the service of our people and in service of Australian greatness- and add that the Universities have a duty to the British Australian people- as Australian people have financed them for the majority of their history and occupy privileged locations in the cities of Australia- they have betrayed their roots. We need to sweep out the universities and replace them with people that support the interests of British Australians.

Sir Walter Murdoch- Born 17 September 1874- When asked if he minded a new university in Western Australia being named in his honour, he was quoted as saying, "No, but it had better be a good one."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Murdoch

Education has been corrupted into indoctrination & it's not a moment to soon to reverse that trend !

The problem is that uneducated people are trying to teach people incapable of learning. Look at the low ATAR scores for teaching. Teachers are just childminders these days. Australia is way down the list when it comes to schooling (it really can't be called education, particularly the mush and political propaganda controlled by communist unions).

So ...... some of you troglodytes would call for the disbandment of the education system, with education only for the select few who can deal with it, and lifelong manual labour (or welfare) for the rest ? Or maybe very basic education for them, say just the first four years ?

And certainly that higher education should be privately funded ? No more government funding for universities, only private fees and endowments ?

I think similar ideas would have been bandied about in the lead-up to the universal education Acts around the 1870s.

And why on earth do you think you would have been entitled to more than your four years ?

Or am I on the wrong track ?

Joe

Foul-Mouth,

The impact of the pandemic is really affecting your mates from China because getting into a masters program at an Australian uni has become a necessary first step to getting a permanent residency visa.

No degree, no visa.

The uni degree is China's back door into Australia.

Loudmouth said-

So ...... some of you troglodytes would call for the disbandment of the education system, with education only for the select few who can deal with it, and lifelong manual labour (or welfare) for the rest ? Or maybe very basic education for them, say just the first four years ? And certainly that higher education should be privately funded ? No more government funding for universities, only private fees and endowments ? I think similar ideas would have been bandied about in the lead-up to the universal education Acts around the 1870s. And why on earth do you think you would have been entitled to more than your four years ? Or am I on the wrong track ?

Does the form follow the function?

Answer- Simply- You are on the wrong track!

Education is fairly accessible for everyone who is willing to read on the internet. Getting a degree is another thing- a degree enables one to get a better job- and is a way of demonstrating competence.

In order to determine whether the education system fulfills their function in society one needs to drill down and understand the components and processes.

Does the form follow the function?

Universities and tertiary bodies as institutions have a "function" to act as a centre of learning that the nation can draw upon to solve challenges that the nation faces for the benefit of all. This requires the system to have a form that suits the function.

There should be a balance between private and public funding based on the resources of the community as well as other constraints.

Loudmouths comments seem to be based on the idea of social inclusion and progression- the ideal of the equal society. Sadly according to Jordon Peterson and others- values lead to hierarchy lead to inequality- so inequality is perhaps inevitable. Loudmouth's vision is unattainable.

There is perhaps the possibility of creating a softer form of Loudmouth's vision-

Some talk of the ladder of success and the missing rungs.

Many successful people come from successful families but not all.

Success starts at home- Jordan Peterson says clean up your room and change the world- look after your family and it will look after you.

Personally I am more concerned about everyone having their own home than everyone having their own degree- but we are doing worse on this every year- now young people look to be living in rented accommodation for their entire lives. Rent is probably the biggest ongoing cost for most people. I believe we can do more for equality by addressing this problem- at least our people will have somewhere to keep their books

CM,

Yes, social equality may be unattainable, but education has been one major pathway for many working-class people to get a better grip on economic opportunities. A good start to understand what I was touching on is the analysis of 'social capital', particularly Bourdieu's concept of it:

http://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/32972649/Siisiainen-_Bourdieu_vs_Putnam.pdf?1392158497=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DTwo_Concepts_of_Social_Capital_Bourdieu.pdf&Expires=1610242367&Signature=U4gjxypIfPeU22r0Ft5zE1Ljg7p7mwY7JzBAOMw8Fy13AtgUKA7FIzX5NXvR4PVBkIE2t-FlpLtuzZSk9Y3NABqnflQs4pqQpW5KHVrAXKqBsl7aSqoYoCes6gyYqp3u6YXezAKLa7p1iRsb3WbeHDPgWn9e7PmkFwP1fjutusoNqnXPZ-TYNEFxpVIut1JebgGMMI0dLRU0Z9a7ZNiqAg2HU7PkIciwOmM7TFenV9TUq0-CqnCzuGUVaJv0-V82um5maHhRFUkYKboXhXF0ie8qDvfKoWDT09~qrjnMjNDuEYaQLw26j6BagYM9HP7D2bmCoiIhaEnD5yfBIQbEog__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

For some groups, access to opportunity can be almost impossible, generation after generation (I'm thinking of some of the descendants of convicts 150-200 years ago), without some sort of inspiring teacher, or other form of leg-up. Imposing barriers, such as the imposition of fees, is a huge barrier to such groups.

Joe

Foul-Mouth,

You must know!

Is it 25% of students at the top eight unis are from China here to do a degree that will get them a permanent residency visa after successful completion of the course?

Are you on a CCP bonus system for everyone you get through the University Migration Processing System?

Thanks to Loudmouth for the Bourdieu reference -

http://www.britannica.com/biography/Pierre-Bourdieu

"Beginning in the 1980s, Bourdieu inserted himself into the public realm, supporting the rights of the unemployed, the homeless, and immigrants without papers. He spoke out against globalization and neoliberalism and often commented on political situations. "

I would perhaps agree with Bourdieu's views on globalization and neoliberalism but not on immigrants- I need more research.

Loudmouth said- "For some groups, access to opportunity can be almost impossible, generation after generation (I'm thinking of some of the descendants of convicts 150-200 years ago), without some sort of inspiring teacher, or other form of leg-up. Imposing barriers, such as the imposition of fees, is a huge barrier to such groups. "

Answer- If universities gave the degree to anyone able to pass the exams the costs to obtain degrees could be lower. Perhaps with paid seminars. But that paradigm would undermine the university business model. But it is happening now. EDX offers online courses with certification.

The next twenty years will be interesting times for so called educational institutions.

Perhaps the end result will be smaller campuses- newer buildings disappearing to be replaced by grass- less students on campus- I would want the older buildings to be preserved.

Perhaps more "friends of universities" rather than "employees of universities". People coming to formal and informal seminars and giving them- that use the libraries. Volunteering as a service and as a self development opportunity. Universities will be a part of the community- as were always meant to be.

Perhaps they will create a better business model around research- I believe that often universities give up intellectual property to industry too easily- but I have seen some industry groups investing generously into research- bit of a mixed bag. R&D funding doesn't seem to be done well in Australia. I would like to see better tax incentives and much less red tape as a start.

Educating foreigners is going to make Australia less competitive internationally assuming we are offering high value education- giving away our business value.

We should rent out rooms not sell the farm

Misop, poor half-witted boy,

I wrote "For some groups, access to opportunity can be almost impossible, generation after generation (I'm thinking of some of the descendants of convicts 150-200 years ago), without some sort of inspiring teacher, or other form of leg-up ...."

I wasn't aware that many of those ancestors were Chinese. Live and learn :)

And I did add: " .... Imposing barriers, such as the imposition of fees, is a huge barrier to such groups."

Strange, I wasn't thinking about Chinese when I typed that, but about:

* working-class people here, the descendants of convicts who have never gained any understanding of the value and role of education - TAFE (in your case) and university, higher skills of any sort actually - and

* Indigenous people, who have actually grasped higher education (sorry, not TAFE, so you probably don't know any) enthusiastically over the past generation: with around 12-14,000 people in an age-group, some 6-7,000 commence university study each year, and close to six thousand graduates now (around 10 % of the entire Indigenous population) - overwhelmingly urban of course (since that's where the universities are) and female.

It may dismay many on the Left (given their extreme hand-wringing pity for the unchangeable position of Indigenous people) but around 150,000 Indigenous people have, at some time, enrolled in university study, overwhelmingly in standard degree-level and PG awards, since 1980.

Actually, with your obsessive disdain for Chinese, I suspect that you may be Chinese, disillusioned in some way, perhaps knocked back from the distant promise of some CCP position once you finish your woodwork course at TAFE. Life can be cruel :(

Joe

Foul-Mouth,

Looks like I hit a nerve that might be felt all the way back to your buddies in Beijing.

Would you like to tell the folks that Australia has to give all those Chinese uni grads a permanent residency visa in order to keep them in Australia because our unis don't produce enough local Aussie grads to meet the demands of Australian businesses for skilled employees.

It's a win-win situation for the Boys in Beijing aka Foul-Mouth's mates.

Oops, that should have been 'sixty' thousand Indigenous university graduates - six thousand graduate these days well within two years.

Looks like I hit a nerve, Misop :) You actually ARE Chinese ?

Welcome to Australia, provided you don't carry out any subversive activities, and pay your university fees if you ever get to that stage.
Give it time.

I hope that, if there aren't enough Australian-born students enrolling and graduates graduating to take up skilled positions here, that we can attract students and graduates from China, Vietnam, the Philippines, India, Thailand, Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea, Pakistan, Iran, Nepal, all of Africa, Latin America and the Middle East. We need skilled people, as every country does. And the more diverse their origins, the better.

Joe

Foul-Mouth,

That 25% of the graduates who are Chinese to whom Australia MUST give permanent residency to meet demands of employers could have been the Australian citizens who missed out on those uni places because the places were sold to the Chinese.

If they went home after graduating that would be alright.

But these Chinese graduates get the jobs while the Aussies who missed out because there were no degree places for them end up on the unemployment heap.

Like I keep saying: our unis now have as much to do with migrant processing as they have to do with higher education.

And who is to blame: politicians, bureaucrats and business people.

And of course you and all the others in the pro-China camp.

I think Loudmouth had trouble fitting in as a child. We all did at different times- but some got over it.

Canem Malum,

I think you might be spot on there.

I'm unsure of why Loudmouth believes the things he does and so it's hard to address his concerns-

Perhaps he's scared that if universities change then research will decline and knowledge will be lost. University employees will lose their jobs and they will lose the investment they have made over the years. Obviously Loudmouth has spent some years in the university system- perhaps worked in the system- and probably has many friends still in the system- for him perhaps a change in the system is like death. Perhaps he believes that his community couldn't survive outside of the university system.

I am confident that his community can survive "outside" in a future university system- and can exist as a type of "friendly society" where the full range of people from the young to the old can exist. Perhaps using a model similar to the British university system.

He quotes Bordeau (who seemingly argued against globalisation and neoliberalism) yet in the next breath he supports it- through multicultural immigration policy- and destruction of British Australia. (Maybe it's my fault in not reading enough Bordeau- Social Capital)

Perhaps for him it's more important to support the university institution itself than the nation for which it's supposed to support- putting form before function.

http://sociology.iresearchnet.com/sociology-of-education/social-capital-and-education/

I've long suspected that university actions since the 90's have been viciously self serving and this is more "grist for the mill". The universities were rightly scared stiff of Howard's policies and seem to have turned against the Australian people as a result. Or maybe I'm just seeing it without the world's context and the ideological changes in university culture across the world.

Maybe Howard could have given them more of a soft landing... though as Turnbull has mentioned- they are constrained by the constitution- sometimes you can only do what you can.

The university is a member of the Australian family of institutions- if Australia dies so does the university- the same with all families.

CM,

Yes, I worked in the university system, in Indigenous student recruitment and support, but had no time for the senior management and their self-indulgence.

I recall one new Campus Director who immediately set up his office with new walls, so that anybody wanting to see him (shades of Catch-22 and M. M. M. Major !) had to make an appointment with his new secretary. He usually wasn't in. He lasted about four years.

Senior management destroyed the programs that we had set up. They've never been revived. Utter bastards.

Middle management, I was fine with. I had a great Head of School (he later went on to found the Men's Shed movement) until senior management forced us out of his School and into the Indigenous Faculty, on the grounds that, well, we were Indigenous, weren't we ? And those Faculty bastards promptly closed us down (since we were providing preparation and support for Indigenous students wanting to do mainstream study, anathema to half-witted 'radicals'), with the connivance of those senior management bastards. The university system is full of bastards, or at least it used to be.

Is that enough for you ?

Joe

Foul-Mouth,

So now you're getting back at them by helping Beijing flood Australia with Chinese.

Actually I think what you are doing is ironic justice:

Let the Chinese Australians do to the British Australians what the British Australians did to the Aboriginal Australians.

That is, just as long as we keep in our 'All-Australian' family.

Why do some hare-brained stick to the idea that people of unequal ability/competence/mentality can ever be equal ?
The very worst way of that senseless thinking has been put on show for 50 years now & what did we get to see ?
Saturation educated mutts who are of no use to anyone at the expense of all !

individual,

Stop bad mouthing Foul-Mouth.

Or is that Stop foul mouthing Bad-Mouth? Hmmm, that gives me an idea.

Thanks for the information Loudmouth.

So Loudmouth seems to think that indigenous elevation is important. I can't see that happening except if they do it themselves by working together as a cultural group.

I would like to see a fixed amount given to indigenous people yearly- but this hasn't worked very well in the past- I would like to see them create their own autonomous regions where they can create their own destiny their own police their own institutions.

If they choose to live with British Australian's then they would need to live by British Australian laws and accept the British Australian principles even if they aren't fair to indigenous people.

We need to move beyond the current infighting because it isn't in anyones interest

I seem to be the only one on The Forum who is concerned about the way in which Australia's institutions of higher education have become migration processing centres in addition to their traditional role as places of learning.

My GUESTIMATE is that 25% of the graduates from Australian unis are foreign Chinese who then use the degree as a pathway to a permanent residency visa (typically by getting a post grad job with an Australian company).

That means there are a lot of locals not getting a place in a uni because "their" places have gone to overseas Chinese. What usually happens to these people? Well, I guess they end up on the unemployment scrap heap becoming a generation of no-hopers and drug addicts.

I see this as one of our greatest social problems. And it is a problem that Aboriginal Australia can tell you all about because something similar happened to them under the British presence in Australia.

Mr. Opinion,

"I seem to be the only one on The Forum who is concerned about the way in which Australia's institutions of higher education have become migration processing centres...."

No, you are not. Many of us are. It's Just that talking about it all the time hasn't changed the situation, nor will it change the situation as long as we keep voting Coalition or Labor. We need a new Conservative party, but most voters don't want that, so we put up with what we have and nothing changes.

I say, leave it to the young smartarses who have rooted Australia. Let them work it out.

CM,

Aboriginal people have never been a single 'cultural group since their ancestors came down the Malayan Peninsula sixty thousand years ago.

But Aboriginal people have been mixing with whitefellas and with each other in towns and cities since the earliest days of Settlement. The majority of the Indigenous population now lives in towns and cities, perhaps 70 %. The vast majority of Indigenous university graduates, perhaps 55,000 out of the current 60,000 total, have been born and raised in the towns and cities. They quite understandably intend to build their careers in the towns and cities, since they don't owe rural and remote 'communities' anything particularly.

As 'communities' disintegrate (as they seem to be doing here in SA), yes, more Indigenous people will move to the towns and cities, some to holes-in-the-wall towns where work opportunities are minimal and lifelong welfare is maximal. But those who move to the cities can look forward to a generation or two building up their social and cultural capital (cf. Bourdieu), and getting their kids and grandkids on their feet in a fast-moving and competitive world.

And no, CM, those old racist notions of a 'Black State' (cf. Colonel Genders' notions of the 1920s); notions of an 'inviolate central reserve' ; and more recent half-arsed ideas of a separate state - or country - by some dim-witted Indigenous people themselves; are long past. Self-determination didn't work anywhere much in Australia and degenerated into the worst forms of Apartheid, de-skilling people and infantilising them.

So moving to the cities may be the only option for Indigenous people.

And university study will always be part of that.

Joe

Foul-Mouth,

Why don't you tell everybody why getting into an Australian uni is so popular with overseas Chinese?

Maybe you could tell them how it is China's back door into Australia.

To give you an idea of how stupid the education system has become;
I was in an emergency are of a hospital yesterday and there are
automatic doors to exit. A nurse told me that someone asked how to get out.
The nurse told them to press the black button near the doors.
She got abused for calling it a "black" button.
This is how a faulty education system escapes into the real world.

Bazz,

Are you sure the nurse wasn't colour blind?

Colour blindness is now racist too ?

individual,

Of course it is .................... :(

Denigrating, demonising and scapegoating education, teachers, educated people, science and peer reviewed research is not only a white Christian nationalist obsession (the state must do something) but also backgrounded by organised/funded US nativist libertarianism supported by corporates, especially foss fuels and related (the state should do nothing).

Why an earth would the fossil fuel and related sectors be afraid of education and science?

Why would the same be approving of STEM amd health medical studies?

Modern day libertarains are socialists or etatists expecting the state to support their business endeavours while denying support to others....

Andras Smith,

Are you trying to tell us something or are you just having a bad hair day?

those old racist notions of a 'Black State' (cf. Colonel Genders' notions of the 1920s);
loudmouth2,
Don't forget that Wayne goss wanted to make Cape york the Aboriginal State too !

Imagine the uproar if my post wasn't based on fact !

Look at this, In Melbourne they have just completed an entire apartment building to accommodate 750 international students:

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/international-student-accommodation-almost-empty-as-sector-battles-with-covid-19-quarantine-and-border-restrictions/ar-BB1cL8Zr

I suppose that explains why rents in Sydney's CBD apartment buildings are falling: no Chinese students to fill them.

And probably explains why Berejiklian is against setting up Covid isolation camps in the NSW bush. It's all about the Chinese and the money they bring in.

The dumbing down of education is evident in the rubbish talked about climate.

Ian Plimer again reminds us that climate change is cyclical, and we are now heading for another Ice Age. The 'experts' have egos "incommensurate with their knowledge", he says; and the dumbing down of education, particularly history, has enabled these people to get away with anything.

The BOM is using the word 'unprecedented' in regard to temperatures, when their own records would show that this is wrong, if they had the awareness and nous to consult them.

ttbn,

It's 60 years too late to be talking about fixing the global warming problem.

The damage has been done and it is irreversible.

Expect to see more and frequent severe droughts and storms/flooding and a lot less what most would call 'normal' weather.

Saw a TV program yesterday where they referred to of a 7-year drought from 1895 onward.

individual,

Yes, it is quite famous.

Brought on by a major El Nino event that affected large parts of the planet.

In India the drought was so bad that within the first year 5 million people died of starvation due to the famine caused by the drought.

Here they come folks:

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/daniel-andrews-slammed-over-plan-to-let-international-students-enter/ar-BB1cLI5H

Looks like the university migrant processing centres are open for business.

"Here's your degree."
"Ah so. Thank you."
"And here's your permanent residency visa."
"Ah so. Thank you."