I was watching "The Project" the other evening and
was amazed to learn that the former Prime Minister
was granted an exemption from the Australian
government's international travel ban to fly to
London where he has accepted a job spruiking
British Trade after Brexit.

Mr Abbott was appointed by Trade Secretary Liz Truss
and the pair had breakfast together in London on
Wednesday to confirm his new role advising the British
Trade Board.

The news came days after Mr Abbott was photographed
attending a golf tournament in Wales and then on
Wednesday night Abbott was in Italy but was expected to
return to London by next week to deliver a speech to
the Policy Exchange think tank by former foreign
minister and former high commissioner to Britain -
Alexander Downer. Mr Abbott will speak about the
international response to the coronavirus pandemic.

The Australian government has banned citizens from
leaving the country (people can't attend funerals or
sick relatives) and the government has also effectively
locked out thousands of Australians trying to return home
by imposing daily and weekly caps on the number of
returnees. Why has an exemption been made in the case
of Tony Abbott? He won't be spruiking Australian
trade interests - but British ones. Also will he be
in lockdown once he returns to Australia? I somehow doubt
that.

The following two links have more:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/tony-abbott-granted-travel-exemption-to-take-on-uk-brexit-job-20200826-p55pnv.html

And -

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/28/tony-abbotts-proposed-job-as-the-uks-hired-gun-on-trade-is-a-baffling-choice

Your thoughts please.

be lovely to see a man of such stature back as PM one day.

runner,

He was ousted by his own colleagues after 2 years in
power and kicked out of Australian politics by his own
constituents just recently.

Why were travel exemptions made for this man?

Well, as long as he's not here but unfortunately, he's still churning up our tax Dollars as do all politicians & ex politicians from every party !
Exemption to travel ? Well, one would think someone like Abbott would have been tested thoroughly plus, he's leaving not entering Australia.
It's up to the country that he enters, to worry about his infection status, not ours.
I would love to see many more such used-up politicians to leave Australia for a long time if possible.

Foxy said-

"He was ousted by his own colleagues after 2 years in
power and kicked out of Australian politics by his own
constituents just recently.

Why were travel exemptions made for this man?"

Answer-

Kim Beasley had similar issues with his colleagues in the Labor Party.
Eventually they had to send him to the US to get rid of his subversion. It is also in Australian interest to have an Australian in a position to influence British Trade and he has shown himself to be loyal to Britain as well as Australia. Of course those that would seek to divide Australia from it's historical allies and roots would be perhaps concerned.

The UK have definitely lost any sense of realism and will suffer for it. With such a liar on the job there will be great confusion and disgruntlement for boris. Abbott is on another homecoming.

Britain's gain.
Australia's loss.

Of course, the haters will hate...big surprise.

What Tony Abbott does as a private citizens is nobody's business, particularly that of a hate-filled old bat who has so little in her miserable life that she has to copy wads of rubbish out of the gutter press.

Round up all the village idiots in the world and put them all into one village and Tony Abbott will still be the village idiot.

Personally I don't care who they send just as long as he or she is representative of the great Asian nation-state that Australia has become. Tony Abbott has always been close to China so I suppose that might qualify him.

What Tony Abbott does as a private citizen is of course
his business - no one is denying that. However it becomes
the business of fellow Australians when the Australian
government grants him special privileges that are denied
to other Australians. Australians then have every right to
ask - WHY there are one set of rules for the privileged few
while other Australians can't get exemptions to visit dying
relatives or attend funerals.

It’s one thing to criticise politicians while they are in office; it’s another entirely to keep it up when they are out of politics. Pathetic, really, particularly as the object of the scorn doesn’t know about it, and is totally unaware of their ranting detractor’s existence.

Tony Abbott was a disappointment as a Prime Minister - probably because he was a good bloke personally and, therefore, not suited to the filthy business. That he tried to appease people who hated him and were not Coalition voters was probably his biggest mistake. But, he is out of the job now, and the low-brow morons with nothing better to do, are only poisoning themselves with their venom: stunted losers that they are.

Tony Abbott will be laughing in London.

It was - Steve Price, conservative journalist and radio
broadcaster who appears regularly on "The Project"
and "Triple M" who brought all this to our attention
the other evening. He was absolutely livid over
the granting of these special privileges to Mr
Abbott - and he also felt that we needed to ask -
WHY?

Mr Abbott did not respond to questions from The Sydney
Morning Herald"" and "The Age" about the nature of his
travel and WHY it warranted an exemption. This left
many questions unanswered because as given in the
links I cited earlier - the Australian government
has banned citizens from leaving the country and it has
effectively locked out thousands of Australians trying to
return home by imposing daily and weekly caps on the number
of returnees.

Mr Abbott also refused to answer questions about whether
he would quarantee in a hotel at his own expense.

Australia's Labor Foreign Affairs spokeswoman, Penny
Wong criticised the decision to grant Abbott a travel
exemption.

"Last week it was a wealthy entrepreneur with the MOrrison
government connections given an exemption to pick up his
luxury yacht in Italy."

"Now its former Liberal Prime Minister Tony Abbott
allowed to leave for
a breakfast meeting about a plum job with a foreign government".

"With Scott Morrison its clearly one rule for the privileged
few, while other Australians can't get exemptions to visit
dying relatives." (or attend funerals).

However apparently questioning this - makes you a "hatred-
filled old bat - who copies everything from the gutter-press".
And this summation comes from a primitive who lives in a
cave and can at best be described as "The typical thug
bogan nasty". As Emily Thornberry - British Labour Party
Shadow Trade Secretary said about Abbott's appointment -
- "If it wasn't so downright humiliating it would be almost hilarious".

As for Tony Abbott being "a good bloke unsuited for
the filthy business of politics"? and that being the reason
for his failure as a former PM? Is rather questionable
when the man had a solid reputation as a "wrecking ball"
and simply thrived on division, aggression, and confrontation
even - from his early years in university. As testified by
the many who knew him then and since.

His reputation was even well known overseas - as Emily
Thornberry - British parliamentarian said:

that the appointment of a failed Australian Prime Minister was
a "humiliation"particularly given that Britain was hosting the
next round of global climate talks.

"On a personal level, I am disgusted that (Prime Minister)
Boris Johnson thinks this - offensive, leering, cantankerous,
climate-change denying, Trump-worshipping, misogynist, is the
right person to represent our country overseas".

Thornberry added:

"He was ousted by his own colleagues after 2 years in power,
and kicked out of Australian politics by his own constituents
just last year".

"They are the people who knew him best, and they wanted to
get rid of him - yet here we are, hiring him to negotiate our
trade deals around the world. It it wasn't so downright
humiliating, it would be almost hilarious".

Tony Abbott may be laughing in London. But London certainly
won't be laughing for long - going by Mr Abbott's past record.

There is nothing like saying one thing before an election then not mention any thing like it after the election. Abbott was dismissed by public opinion and should have been hung before dawn for being such a caniving mongrel and an irresponsible liar.

I'm sensing that most of you are jealous of Tony Abbott because he has made a success of his life and is not a loser like you.

Most Australians
are sick and tired of the double standards and
hypocrisy involved in the behaviour of their
politicians and current government. One set of
rules for the privileged, another for the rest of
us. And Tony Abbott's life has been anything
but a success. He's stuffed up everything thus far.
And undoubtedly he'll stuff up this new job as well.

He tends to continually be on the wrong side of
things - from same-sex marriage to climate-change.
His constituents voting against him. And look where
he ended up. The same result will occur for Britain's
trade. Poor country will live to regret it.

The interview for the job could have all been settled
by SKYPE - no big deal - however - with Scott Morrison's
reaction of "good hire" commentary on the Abbott
appointment - makes it clear that for Morrison - to
have Abbott "anywhere but here" was a better option all
round with the least damage occurring for the Coalition
at the next election with Abbott away overseas.
Giving the man a travel exemption was an easy option to get
him out of the country.

Foxy,

Shame on you for criticising your betters viz Tony Abbott.

He helped make the Great Asianzation Period (1980-2020) in Australian history happen and you should be proud to call him a fellow Asian.

I don't know sometimes, there's just no pleasing you Foxy.

Mr Opinion,

Pleasing everyone is impossible, pissing them off -
a piece of cake.

Mr O,

Tony Abbott - my better?

Nah! I suspect you think he's your better.

Although who knows - he just may improve with age.
Lets try locking him in the cellar or sending
him out of the country like Morrison would love
to do -
ah wait ...

Seriously, my better is better than your better!

Foxy,

Do you think Scott Morrison pissed off folks in Cobargo when he jumped into his car with that look that seemed to say "Let's get the hell out of here and leave these losers to themselves."

"Let's get the hell out of here and leave these losers to themselves."
Mr Opinion,
Why he went there in the first place is a mystery in itself. They're all a bunch of Lefties anyway !
Of course it's Morrison's fault that they built right in amongst the Gumtrees !

It says a lot about Scott Morrison that the UK government snapped Abbott up when he could have been gainfully employed here. Abbott has been treated with good deal of juvenile nastiness by our accidental Prime Minister and his coterie.

individual,

You are looking more like a pre-Asianization redneck every time you post a comment.

I bet you're one of those people who will die with your eyes wide open to make sure no one sneaks up to steal the property you have acquired during your lifetime.

You need to embrace your Asianess and cease worrying about the Chinese getting their grubby little hands on all the stuff you will be leaving behind.

You could bequeath your property to Tony Abbott but he will probably just sell it to the Chinese just like he tried to do to the rest of the country.

Or better still just give it to me as a token of our Asian brotherhood and I'll promise to light an incense stick for you on every Happy Asia Day.

Scott Morrison was blamed by many for leaving the
country to burn when he took the family trip to
Hawaii. The PM was faced with angry residents when he
visited the Bega Valley township of Cobargo. The community
had been hard hit, so many people lost everything. They
needed help - and the PM's visit did not appease anyone.
The result came at the May 2019 election when Labor's
Mike Kelly retained the marginal seat of Eden-Monaro, which
includes Cobargo.

However, the PM's handling of the pandemic has been much
better. It just may save his prime ministership.
He's been listening to medical advisers and the number of
deaths have been minimal. Australia has done well in
coping with this virus and our PM and his government will
undoubted;y reap the benefits come election time.

As for Tony Abbott's new job?
The UK is currently negotiating trade deals with Australia,
New Zealand, and the United States. Will Tony Abbott's job
as a high level trade adviser to the United Kingdom see
him work to advance the interests of British exporters and
farmers at the expense of Australian producers? As Steve
Price seems to think it will?

And will a knighthood be in the works for Tony Abbott?

Who knows.

Foxy,

They can give him the gong he was going to give to Prince Phillip. It's just sitting around in someone's drawer collecting dust.

Sir Village Idiot. It definitely has a ring to it.

Mr O,

Well, we've had our fun and games but lets get back
to being serious.

There's no question of Mr Abbott's loyalty to the
UK and to the Royal family. He is a staunch monarchist
and that's fair enough. Therefore if he is ever in the
running for a knighthood - he would have earned it.

Foxy,

Who's not being serious?

Scott Morrison went to Cobargo- they didn't want him there- fine- he left- end of story. But the lefties have managed to keep this story going for months.

I'm sure there isn't anything that one can do for poor people that have lost everything that will make everything ok- some things just can't be replaced.

I don't have enough information here but something else seems to be going on...

Abbott lying his way around UK and morison ordering up vaccines from UK. A distinct smell of corruption in the air.
Abbott will never be a success as his lying mouth will never allow it to happen

As soon as I saw that Tony Abbott had been appointed to a senior position in the UK I knew that the left whingers would go beserk and froth at the mouth.

The reality is that Australia has frequently been giving permission for Aussies to leave for work reasons on the condition that on returning they remain in isolation for 2 weeks (I know of a few), so there are no special favours there. What they have limited is the places for people to return based on the isolation facilities.

Secondly, given TA's experience in finalising 4 FTAs in 2 years (more than the 0 achieved by labor in 6 years) with mostly the same partners that the UK is trying to achieve combined that with TA's amiable disposition that has enabled him to strike up close personal relationships with many heads of state and this makes him the preimminently most qualified candidate for the role.

I never thought I would see the day that shadow minister would give his backing to an Arts graduate.

What nonsense is being spruiked here, all began on the Project which is gutter journalism. Trade envoys are regularly leaving this country, just that the Project hate Tony. So they had a winge. Personally we have two friends returning to Australia, One returned from China three weeks ago with two weeks in quarantine, the other from Syria waiting on passage by air travel to Australia. Flights are bringing 4,000 people in each week as well as returning to destinations with passengers. This not more than small minded winge by a small minded TV programme.

30 July 2020 http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/destinations/europe/united-kingdom

There's a ban on overseas travel from Australia. You can’t leave Australia unless you get an exemption from the Department of Home Affairs.

If you’re overseas and wish to return to Australia, we continue to encourage you to plan your travel home. However, be prepared for possible delays.

When you arrive in Australia you must quarantine for 14 days at designated facilities in your port of arrival. You may be required to pay for the costs of your quarantine. View individual State and Territory Government information.

Abbott lying his way around UK and morison ordering up vaccines from UK. A distinct smell of corruption in the air.
Abbott will never be a success as his lying mouth will never allow it to happen
Posted by Riely.

As usual we see lefties expecting the same behavior from the right as they always do themselves.

Foxy, I am surprised & disappointed to find that you would actually watch such a bit or gutter garbage as The Project. It is interesting that so much rubbish TV comes out of Victoria.

Foxy

1. Politicians look after their own.

2. As politicians politically decide laws in Parliament too many see law-breaking or law-ignoring as a political matter rather than a legal matter applying to them. ie ACTING ABOVE THE LAW

plantagenet,

When we got rid of autocratic rulers like kings and queens and established our democratic systems all we really did was replace the autocrats with rule by self-seeking gangs of politicians and we the people are still at the bottom of the heap.

So the question is: It better to be ruled by a single thug or a group of thugs?

This is just an excuse for you left whingers to have ago at someone successful who you do not like. Fair enough.
This whole Kung-flu nonsense is actually great. My tradie son was denied access to a supplier of over 20 years because he had not realised the fascist Victorian government have "papers" to be completed before you can pay money to a another business for supplies. No matter good old Bunnings to the rescue and another nail in the coffin of the other business.
The fascist government's incompetence and corruption caused all the current cases they hang their hat on to oppress us. As we all knew it is aged care where the casualties mount up, people on life support, hanging by a thread and given a merciful release.
The tide has well and truly turned and labour will rue the day they converted Vicpol to pansies to be called the Doughnut Corps from now on.
I cannot think of anyone better to negotiate our "Free" trade agreement with anyone. A man who will get it done and actually fight for us rather than do an Andrews and sell us out to a foreign power.

It never fails to surprise me that as soon as what's considered
"the norm"is questioned - the divisiveness into left and
right whinger teams raises its head. The football mentally
comes into play. You either support your own team or you're
out!

We seem to be genuinely unable to engage with rational
discussion and ideas and
political views that are different to our own.
Goodness me
even daring to watch TV programs like "The Project
or read different newspapers
to the acceptable "norm""of the NewsCorp media - is a NO, NO!

I had assumed that to question Mr Abbott's current
appointment was
a fair thing to do. His appointment after all does add to the
perception that there is a double standard - when he
receives a travel exemption - while other Australians don't.

Also I see nothing wrong with questioning the appropriateness
of a former Australian PM being given a senior trade role
in which he will be negotiating for the benefit of another
nation against the interests of his own. A point raised by
conservative journalist and radio broadcaster - Steve Price.

Mr Abbott now has the job of promoting another country,
even if it means disadvantaging Australian farmers, producers
and exporters. And he'll be doing all of that while still
receiving a pension funded by the Australian taxpayer.

Should the Australian public be paying him
to advance another country's interests?

Seems like a fair question to me. And if that makes me a "Leftie
Whinger" I'll wear that title with honour!

I would say that Tony Abbott was hired for his knowledge of Oz markets, & Oz industrial capacity. After Brexit the Poms will be wanting to maximise trade with the old Commonwealth, & the UK market offers a huge market for us & us for them. In the same way the UK will be looking to us, NZ, Canada & India to offer goods to replace much of what they currently source from the EU.

Tony with his knowledge of both countries is probably uniquely qualified for the position to advantage both countries.

Mr O he also has an economics degree, but I won't hold that against him any more than his arts degree. It is a pity so many kids are misguided into studying such useless disciplines, but as kids they don't know enough to avoid the useless.

Two questions that need to be cleared up:

1) I think it is a fair question to ask for clarification
as to whether Tony Abbott's job as a high level trade
adviser to the UK will see him work to advance the
interests of British exporters and farmers at the
expense of Australian producers.

2) He is currently being paid an annual pension as a
former Prime Minister of - $307.542, plus extra entitlements
which include all sorts of perks including travel. He's
currently earning more than he did as an MP.

Will he receive a salary from his UK job - and in that case
will he lose his Australian pension funded by the Australian
taxpayer?

Australians on a pension are not allowed to be earning
salaries elsewhere.

All these things need clarification.

Phil,

Abbott did a combined Economics/Law degree. In those days he would have received a testamur in Economics then one in Law.

But he knew that these were just vocational degrees (like engineering, business, architecture, etc) which were great for getting a job but he obviously wanted to be seen as being smart as well as being a worker so he decided to do an Arts degree after these.

Same thing happened to me. I did an engineering degree but decided I wanted to be smart as well as being just an engineer so I went back to do some Arts degrees. Now I can hold down a job and be smart at the same time.

Foxy,

Abbott got paid for selling off Australia to China when he was PM so why shouldn't he get paid for selling us off to the UK as well?

I don't know Foxy, there's just no pleasing you.

Mr O,

It's not a question of pleasing me (I'm just a pleb
after all). It's questions of double-standards.

The payment to Abbott is from a defined benefit superannuation scheme.

So not a pension as such, despite the lazy language from those with more hate than knowledge.

Is Abbott the first ex-PM to have earned monies after leaving parliament while getting a 'pension'? I wonder why there weren't calls for those others to have their 'pension' withdrawn?

Haters gotta hate.

Nah, the truth always outs out.

And there have been calls for many clarifications
regarding the privileges of our former PMs.
One has to only do a bit of research. Except some
refuse to see what they don't want.

The same goes for Mr Abbott's pension. Again - research
is the key word. And it's not a question of hate. In
some cases it's simply a question of intellectual
laziness. Hate being bandied about is a technique often
used by the demented - who have nothing else on offer.

Foxy,

Tony Abbott is doing exactly what people of his kind do: they milk the system for all it's worth.

Keep in mind he is a lawyer. Lawyers are one of the most disrespected people in society and the fact that politics is full of lawyers shouldn't surprise any of us. And in politics and business I think Abbott is doing exactly what he would be doing if he was working as a lawyer: milking the system for all he can get out of it.

I just hope he stays in the UK forever. He can show the Brits how to eat raw unpeeled onions and do really bizarre television interviews where he pretends he is brain-dead.

Here's the link explaining Abbott's pension:

http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/leaders/tony-abbotts-election-defeat-will-actually-make-him-significantly-richer/news-story/cc10811c20634274862d985c02b369ed

Oooops sorry. Here it is again:

http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/leaders/tony-abbotts-election-defeat-will-actually-make-him-significantly-richer/news-story/cc1o811c206342748b2d985c02b369ed

The number of arrivals is probably set by the systems ability to
handle the influx. Access to the limited seats is governed by whether
the passenger has paid for a business class seat or economy.
Because the planes are half or less full the airlines will take those
passengers paying the higher price.
That is why Australians overseas are having trouble getting home.
Also people traveling on government business, all governments, have priorities.

Foxy quoted a British politician;
cantankerous, climate-change denying, Trump-worshipping, misogynist,

Well as far as climate is concerned he got that right as all the
failed predictions have shown as well as the latest science.

We will see if Trump is again elected to his job and as far as being
a misogynist is concerned many who should know did not agree but his
accuser had a thing about men and their watches.

Oh well but it all does not matter anyway, what a storm in a teacup.

So Foxy, as per your link, Abbott's 'pension' is indeed a payment from the superannuation fund and therefore completely different to ordinary pensions. ("Australians on a pension are not allowed to be earning salaries elsewhere."). So all perfectly legit.

"And there have been calls for many clarifications
regarding the privileges of our former PMs.
One has to only do a bit of research."

Which you proceed to not do. And clarifications isn't the same as calls for withdrawals. Keating, Rudd and Gillard all get 'pensions' like Abbott and all have outside income. I look forward to you showing us where you asked for their 'pensions' to be withdrawn.

mhaze,

Abbott's pension is not just a payment from the
superannuation fund. There's much more to it than that
and had you done your research you would be aware of
the bigger picture:

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-feed/tony-abbott-s-pension-will-be-bigger-than-his-mp-paycheck-here-s-why

As for the withdrawal of pensions from our former PMs?

This is a topic that I have continued to raise quite a few
times on this forum. It is something of which most people are
already aware. Feel free to check my posting record.

Take care.
Stay safe.

Foxy,

I would give Abbott 100x what he will be getting if he just promises to never come back to Australia.

To JBowyer- I liked your points. Perhaps there needs to be an investigation as to why Victoria's corona cases are 20x higher than the nearest state. I suspect that Daniel Andrews and the Victorian Senior Health Executives have some responsibility. Daniel Andrews appears very left. Sorry to hear about your son's supplier- we should be trying to support these small businesses- not knock them on the head.

Ayn Rand talked about nationalizing industries and reducing competition to bring about communism under the guise of "public interest"... fascinating.

Posted by Mr Opinion-

"When we got rid of autocratic rulers like kings and queens and established our democratic systems all we really did was replace the autocrats with rule by self-seeking gangs of politicians and we the people are still at the bottom of the heap.

So the question is: It better to be ruled by a single thug or a group of thugs?"

Answer- I'm glad that you brought this up. I'm sure you're aware that this is what John Locke was trying to achieve in the creation of Liberalism- he wanted to create an objective ruler that would be above the thug mindset- but he seems to have failed and just created bigger thugs- because he underestimated the strength of "will to power". (I think that this was Nietzsche's thing). The founding fathers of the US had some sense of this when they wrote the right to bear arms and state militia into the constitution in 1783. Power is a hierarchy as it gets bigger- as you've said- the ones at the bottom become powerless- similar problem to the "tragedy of the commons". There needs to be limits to power between the levels- you could say for example that the first level of government should be no larger than 10k adults, the second no larger than 1k councils, the third no larger than 100 states, the fourth no larger than 10 nations, the fifth no larger than 10 regions. Parent entities should be able to manage only their own child entities.

At this rate it appears that the world will become a dictatorship- ironic given Locke's vision. Prof. Patrick Deneen talks about this in "Why Liberalism Failed".

As to Mr Opinion's comment about Ex-PM Tony Abbott and his Arts Degree-

Patrick Deneen also talks about the Liberal Arts- or "the Art of Learning to be free"- his view appears to be that the original Classical Arts programs predated "Mill" and so had a very different idea of what it meant to "be free"- being more of an "Aristotelian" interpretation of being free from enslavement to our baser natures.

This sort of dovetails with discussions through the ages as to whether man was naturally good or bad- in the Chinese Confucian tradition Mencius and Xunzi have interesting contrasts. Nietzsche has some interesting things to say in his Thus Spoke Zarathustra- but quite complex.

Liz Coleman on TED talks about the infection of the Liberal Arts with Post Modern Deconstructionism- and the power dynamic- apparently completely ignoring the complex interaction of competition and cooperation.

Personally I suspect that the Liberal Arts has become compromised and indoctrinated by pedagogy and those in a position to influence it. So it's perhaps better to read about the greats "viva voce" rather than studying it at the corrupted universities.

A degeneration a reinterpretion of the Liberal Arts into communist class warfare.

Foxy,

You are the first one to make this thread political as the only people that think this choice is baffling are left whingers and far-left whingers. That your quotes are from far-left whinge commentators is also a giveaway as only hardcore lefties believe that TA is a misogynist for starters.

That TA is getting the same treatment that 1000s of other Australians to travel is baffling to you? That TA can draw a parliamentary pension after nearly 3 decades in parliament yet still earn a living separately like any other politician also seems to tie you in knots.

That TA as a Rhodes scholar with degrees in economics and law and extensive trade negotiation experience might be a useful trade envoy seems to elude only left whingers.

Canem Malum,

I like your take on what I said about our democracy just replacing one type of ruler with a group of similar people in which power and authority over the hoi polloi is all that seems to matter.

The sad part about our democratic system is that it has contradictions. It does allow citizens to engage in government just like the Athenians (males) but power is still not fully in the hands of all the citizens to make equal choices and decisions.

So we have representatives but unfortunately a lot of those tend to be of the same types as Tony Abbott and Joh Bjelke-Petersen who I think would sell their own grandmother if they could make a buck out of it.

People are tired of the left wing bias of the Project it looks like closing.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-8679819/amp/Judgement-day-Project-Channel-10-asks-budget-cuts.html?fbclid=IwAR2K9CtsxRZ_K6lRHD7mgYilp7j_OXF5PcrdEF7Xgomo3WaS_gn34r0aYFM

Well the finger-pointing continues.

It seems that only the "Left-whingers" are capable of
making this discussion "political".

Seriously?

Opinions are interesting. Everyone has one.

However the facts are that the decision to appoint a
"gaffe-prone" former Australian PM as Britain's post
Brexit trade envoy has been blasted by critics on
both sides of politics. And the fact that Mr Abbott
was granted permission to break the Australian
travel ban to fly to the UK has also been questioned.

Then his qualifications for the job have also been
raised. A British parliamentarian stated:

"This is someone with no hands-on experience negotiating
trade agreements, who denies climate change, and who
clearly has no concept of the importance of Britain's
trade with the EU..."

And worse - calling Abbott an:

"offensive, aggressive, leering, gaffe-prone misogynist"...

Then there's also Abbott's student record at Oxford that
has been raised on multiple websites. Tony Abbott clearly
was no intellectual star at Oxford - scoring very low
and only just making the grade.

It's all there on Google. I believe that he did excel at
boxing though.

Foxy showing what a hateful, spiteful person she can be. I really thought Abbottphobia was finished long ago. Funny how those that stick by their principals the most are hated the most by the left. Well I suppose she is laying off Trump for a few seconds.

Foxy,

Abbott will be there to do one thing: Find a replacement buyer to sell us off to now that China is being forced out of the picture.

The LNP politicians are all about syphoning money from the system to make their class rich and having plenty of money in hand to buy votes when it comes to getting re-elected.

And that's what this Tony Abbott fiasco is all about. He does qualify on one point: Selling off the farm to China is pretty much the same as selling it off to the Brits.

Interesting that he had low grades in his BA at Oxford. Sounds like he should have called it quits with the LLB BEc degree. Like most of these vocationally trained people (shadow minister for instance) think that studying the Arts things like history, sociology, anthropology, archaeology, philosophy, etc., is a pushover - until they attempt it themselves.

The boxing might explain why he appears brain-dead and walks around sucking on raw unpeeled onions.

runner,

Presenting links, facts, and relevant opinions
found on the web which can be verified does not
amount to personal hatred and spite but is simply an attempt
to present a bigger picture - which you obviously
do not comprehend.

Also with your posting history on this forum you are in no
position to finger-point or lecture any one else on
hatred, spite, or any other dubious forms of expression of
which you are a master. You only demean yourself by doing so.
And lose your credibility even further.

Foxy,

I said that you made this thread political from the very headline. That every quote of yours is from a left whinge rag, activist or politician abandoning any pretence of your attempting anything other than an anti-Abbott polemic.

None of the vitriol heaped on him has any foundation in reality. He has hands-on experience in negotiations with Japan and Korea, both of which the UK is attempting to do. Similarly, knowing Australia he is more capable of negotiating an FTA that amenable to both sides.

That he didn't get straight As at Oxford is largely because it is an opportunity to make connections and does not detract from his stellar uni results in Aus that few Labor or Greens pollies can match.

That in opposition he shredded Krudd and Juliar before getting a thumping majority shows that he is not only smart but accomplished more than Krudd and Juliar together.

shadowminister,

Just be honest and accept that Abbott wasn't up to doing the Arts things like history, sociology, anthropology, archaeology, philosophy, etc. at a high standard.

JUST LIKE YOU.

Mr O,

Boxing was always Mr Abbott's forte. He's more braun
than brain as everybody knows. I used to think he had
a mild form of epilepsy because often when questioned
by reporters the man would just stare blankly and then
walk away.

As for the Rhodes Scholarship. A close friend of Abbott's
Dyson Heydon was on the selection committee that awarded
Tony Abbott the Rhodes Scholarship. Check out this connection
on the web. Heydon was later appointed by Abbott as a
Royal Commissioner.

In any case a person like Tony Abbott became PM by sheer
luck. Good for him. Bad for us. He was elected leader of the
opposition by 1 vote over the issue of climate change,
there being a very strong climate change denying faction in
the Liberal Party.

Abbott proved to be an effective attack-dog in tearing down
the Labor government which created many of its own problems
and was an easy target for him. PM Julia Gillard was
subject to absolutely vile personal attacks by the right-
wing media and the shock jocks. All of which Abbott
encouraged. His government was elected in the end because
Australians were sick of the in-fighting inside the
Labor Party and the constant atmosphere of crisis was
was formented by Abbott.

The man was never personally popular but people thought
the Liberal Party would at least be competent.
They weren't. Abbott today is seen as a liar - on top
of his thuggish personality. I won't go into the details
of unemployment, the death of manufacturing, carbon
emissions, and business confidence hitting rock bottom.

Tony Abbott's job as the UK's hired gun on trade is
indeed a baffling choice - as the link I cited earlier
by Malcolm Farr explains. It's worth a read.

Foxy,

I just worked out why he is getting the job.

They think having Tony Abbott on the team will make the rest of them look a whole lot smarter.

Mr O,

Thanks for your commentary.

For me this discussion has now run its course.

See you on the next one.

Posted by Mr Opinion-

Canem Malum,

I like your take on what I said about our democracy just replacing one type of ruler with a group of similar people in which power and authority over the hoi polloi is all that seems to matter.

The sad part about our democratic system is that it has contradictions. It does allow citizens to engage in government just like the Athenians (males) but power is still not fully in the hands of all the citizens to make equal choices and decisions.

So we have representatives but unfortunately a lot of those tend to be of the same types as Tony Abbott and Joh Bjelke-Petersen who I think would sell their own grandmother if they could make a buck out of it.

Answer-

Thanks for your feedback Mr Opinion. I'm not an expert on these matters- but I see what I see.

Deneen opened my eyes to a different perspective that I found useful. I think you are still looking at governing and society through the lense of Locke's vision being of independent individuals- I think Locke was projecting his own and the Renaissance Intellectual self interest on the world- something that perhaps continues as a romantic notion today. Confucius OTOH had the view that society was a hierarchy- though he like the Renaissance Intellectuals was perhaps also a non-conformist.

Without Deneen I wouldn't have seen through my own previous bias- he in turn credits Alexis de Tocqueville. I've since learned of similar modern bias to other fields like Economics. Hard sciences seem less prone to this type of pedagogic indoctrination. It seems academics are vulnerable to the types of weaknesses due the common man- it reinforces conceptual allegiance to principles rather than qualifications.

I sometimes find that looking at the argument through Jungian Archetypes is a useful way of discovering other perspectives. Eg. Renaissance Intellectual Non-Conformist "Rebel" there must be other perspectives on the Jungian Wheel of 12. Jung's discredited archetypes were divided into personal vs group and order vs chaos. Renaissance Intellectual Non-Conformist perhaps is located in Jung's "personal/ chaos" quartile.

Politics and philosophy in a broad sense have similar lenses. With respect I see Tony Abbott and Joh Bjelke-Petersen differently. Tony Abbott perhaps comes from the "Conservative" Traditionalist non-"Locke Liberal" part of the "Liberal Party"- if that is true he is probably less about selling things than someone like Turnbull who is more of an Economic Liberal. Joh was probably old school Paleo-Traditionalist that lived through World War II. They say war creates thieves- peace hangs them- only someone who has served in conflict can really understand this mindset. The idea that sometimes you have to break the rules to get things done. Nurses in wars sometimes have to steal bandages to treat their patients- this could be a criminal matter- but is it right? Some may say that comparing Joh to a nurse is ridiculous- you have to make your own journey. I believe Joh loved Australia- that is something.

As to our democratic system having contradictions- there is never going to be a perfect system- humans aren't perfect- if we can reduce complexity- manage pro-actively- we can make it better- but some don't want better because they are getting what they want- even if it's at the expense of others- maybe they have a point- there are many things that contrive to subvert happiness and fairness. It's a bit like chaos theory. But modern society is very different than the three million years of humanity. Many discredit the blind learnings of nature and the traditional human societies that resulted. Even Locke lived in a very different world- maybe Liberalism needs to be adapted to the ten billion individual scale. But with scale comes complexity- the problem seems unsolvable- but reduce the scale reduce the complexity- increase the fairness.

Socrates said I'm the wisest because I know that I don't know. Traditional society was based on testing over many generations. Modern society think that they know better

Foxy,

Most of what you last posted is pure innuendo or outright lies.

1) The final recipients of Rhodes Scholarships are decided by Oxford, not the preselection panel that Heydon sat on.

2)While Abbott worked with Heydon later I cannot find anything that indicates that Abbott and Heydon knew each other prior to the selection.

3) to get into law at Sydney Uni you need better than a 99 ATAR, and to get onto the selection list you need to be academically one of the best of these. To claim that TA is anything other than one of the brightest intellects in Aus is complete crap and pure spite.

4) The viciousness of the attacks on Juliar pales into insignificance on the bile heaped on TA from the left whinge press. The thuggish personality is another of your lies for which there is no evidence whatsoever.

shadowminister,

It is easy to see that you are on the same level as Tony Abbott.

Foxy and I and others of our ilk are not.

shadowminister,

Abbott's profession as a lawyer matches the type of person he is.

I think lawyers are low-lifes more interested in getting rich than helping people. I know that's a stereotype but I think most would agree that it applies to up to 95% of lawyers.

What's this I hear about Abbott commenting on aged-care deaths from the WuFlu?

To Shadow Minister- Thanks for the coherent comments. Getting into a job is not the same as doing well in a job I guess. I'm sure that Tony Abbott had many distractions when he was studying at Oxford. The British consider Australian's perhaps to be a little unrefined and so maybe this relates to the view that Tony Abbott wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer- perhaps the communists used this to discredit him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Abbott

graduated with a Bachelor of Economics (BEc) in 1979 and a Bachelor of Laws (LLB) in 1981 from the University of Sydney. He resided at St John's College and was president of the Student Representative Council. Influenced by his chaplain at St Ignatius', Father Emmet Costello, he then attended The Queen's College, Oxford, as a Rhodes Scholar, where in June 1983 he graduated as a Bachelor of Arts in Philosophy, Politics and Economics (PPE) and on 21 October 1989 proceeded by seniority to Master of Arts.

During his university days, Abbott gained media attention for political opposition to the then dominant left-wing student leadership. Once he was violently beaten at a university conference. A student newspaper editor with political views opposed to those of Abbott took him to court for indecent assault after he touched her during a student debate; the charges were dismissed by the court. According to the Sun-Herald newspaper, it was "an ugly and often violent time", and Abbott's tactics in student politics were like "an aggressive terrier". Abbott organised rallies in support of Governor-General John Kerr after he dismissed the Whitlam Government in November 1975, as well as a pro-Falklands War demonstration during his time at Oxford. ..taught and influenced by the Jesuits. At university, he encountered B. A. Santamaria, a Catholic layman who led a movement against Communism within the Australian labour movement in the 1950s, culminating in the 1955 Labor Party split and the formation of the Democratic Labor Party.

As revealed by various websites - Tony Abbott certainly
was no intellectual star at Oxford. His marks show he gained
a 2:2 known to students of his era as a "Desmond". By
contrast David Cameron who along with many other future
politicians also did a PPE ( politics, philosophy, economics)
gained a "First". The articles also show Abbott had to take
8 exams for his finals - two in philosophy and six in politics.
He was exempt from economics having studied that at Sydney
university.

Abbott was not eh best student at Oxford university as a
Rhodes scholar scoring B's and C's. He only just made the
grades. This is available on various websites. Plus the
fact that his close friend Dyson Heydon was on the
selection committee that awarded Tony Abbott the Rhodes
Scholarship in 1980s. (Abbott later appointed Heydon to
a Royal Commissioner's job).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes_Scholarship

Selection criteria

In his will, Rhodes specified that he did not want his scholarships to go to "merely bookworms." He wanted candidates assessed in regard to:

his literary and scholastic attainments
his fondness of and success in manly outdoor sports such as cricket, football and the like
his qualities of manhood, truth, courage, devotion to duty, sympathy for the protection of the weak, kindliness, unselfishness, and fellowship
his exhibition during school days of moral force of character and of instincts to lead and to take an interest in his schoolmates for those latter attributes will be likely in after-life to guide him to esteem the performance of public duty as his highest aim

To assess candidates, Rhodes specified a 200-point scale, unequally applied to each of the four areas (3/10 to each of the first and third areas, 2/10 to each of the other two areas). The first area was to be judged by examination, the second and third by ballot from the candidate's fellow students, and the fourth by the headmaster of the candidate's school. The results for each candidate would be sent to the trustees of Rhodes's will, or their appointees, who would then give a final assessment by averaging the marks for each candidate.

Here's just one link on Mr Abbott and his stint at
Oxford. There's plenty of others on the web from
various other sources:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/25/tony-abbott-just-about-makes-grade-as-rhodes-scholar

Of course - The Guardian - is part of the "Leftie"gutter press
and should not be believed. Just as it's totally unfair to
question the appropriateness of a former Australian Prime Minister
in a senior trade role now negotiating for the benefit of
another nation. That is totally unfair - considering how
brilliant the man was at his job. Not "gaffe prone"at all.
And extremely popular with great hands-on experience
of negotiating trade agreements -
and a clear concept of the importance of Britain's
trade with the EU.

I just saw Abbott on the news putting money before lives when it comes to the WuFlu pandemic.

Yes he is definitely a lawyer alright! The sort of person shadowminister would be proud to call a friend.

Not me. He's the sort of person I look down my nose at. Although I do admit to being tempted to try sucking a raw unpeeled onion - just for the experience that is - not because I'm perverse of course.

Tony Abbott according to The Monthly, Sydney Morning
Herald and other sources - arrived on a Rhodes
Scholarship in October 1981. He was a controversial
choice because he
hadn't demonstrated the academic brilliance of ability,
leadership, or grades normally associated with the prize.

Abbott's selection was considered a triumph for Jesuit
wheeler-dealer - Father Emmet Costello (Chaplain at
the Jesuit College, St. Ignatius, Riverview, on the North
Shore. Father Costello was a worldly Jesuit from a wealthy
background who knew many of the important political p[layers.
Father Emmet Costello mentored the future minister at
St Ignatius College, and successfully won the Rhodes
Scholarship for him.

As a result this London born Sydney-sider graduated in 1983
with a BA in philosophy, politics, and economics. His exam
results were poor and he was as stated earlier, officially
placed in the 2nd class.

Upon his arrival in England Abbott gained immediate
selection in Oxford's XV rugby team as a prop. forward.
This didn't last long. In March 1982 Abbott was dropped
in favour
of a bigger forward. As a result he switched
to boxing.
It brought him and his supporters a very
inferior consolation
prize. An Oxford "blue" for boxing.

There's more on the web.

Foxy,

Thanks for reminding us that Abbott is actually British by birth.

Just so happens shadowminister is also British.

You can work out the rest.

Mr O,

Instead of eating a raw unpeeled onion along the
lines of Tony Abbott - it may be more enjoyable
to skoll down a yard of ale - as Bob Hawke did
when he was at Oxford on a Rhodes Scholarship
1953-1956. Hawke did it in 11 seconds (two and a
half pints of 1.4 litres) setting a world record
then

Foxy,

Thanks for the suggestion but unlike Hawke I'm not an alcoholic.

Mr O,

Hawke gave up alcohol when he became PM.

Foxy,

Good, otherwise we would have had another Boris Yeltsin on our hands.

Mr O,

Nah. Chalk and cheese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_%28university_sport%29

A blue is an award of sporting colours earned by athletes at some universities and schools for competition at the highest level. The awarding of blues began at Oxford and Cambridge universities in England.

It seems that all you have to do to get a boxing
"blue"from Oxford is compete in annual matches against
Cambridge.

Still to be fair - love him or loathe him, Tony Abbott
did make it to Oxford via a Rhodes Scholarship. He
did complete his degree, regardless of his poor grades,
and how he got the boxing blues.

Whether this man has used that privileged education to his
best advantage as Prime Minister is open to argument.

Some people as we know are great students but their academic
skills don't translate well to the real world. Others
are naturally gifted but lack the drive to study while still
others lack the smarts but with the right
kind of nurturing can achieve great things.
Others drop out of school and go
on to be world leaders in their chosen fields.

Therefore while student should certainly aim for the best
results that they can achieve - life is more than the sum
of marks.

We certainly have not heard the last of Mr Abbott. And he
shall continue to be judged by his performance in the future.
Hopefully he will be judged by something more substantial
than a graduation photograph from Oxford University.

Foxy,

And others had a grand pop who built the best little whore house in the Klondike as a start-up for a hotel chain.

Guess who!

The Mad Monk wants to put a price on the economic units as to their worth when it comes to corona virus. What's a rejected, broken down, ex useless PM worth, in my opinion, four fifths of you know what!

Tony do us all a favour, pack your bags, and get back from whence you came. I'm sure that other useless conservative, Bug Ridden Boris, will welcome you with open arms, and a good dose of ....!

Personally I think Tony Abbott has contributed a million times more value than you Paul. You are disgraceful along with your regressive team of anarchist.

runner, think what you like, the bloke couldn't cut it as PM, and had to be replaced by his own party. Eventually even the voters of Warringah realised what a useless log he was and voted him out.

I have contributed far more than your insipid fly-by posts on an online forum. But I still love you.

Foxy,

For all you snide attempts to discredit Abbott, it is stunningly clear that there is not a single person with the same mental horsepower in Labor or the greens. The pedogreens, for example, fielding a bank teller in SHY.

shadowminister,

You and Tony Abbott are like two peas in a pod.

Is Prince Andrew a pedogreen? Maybe Tony and Andy can hook up together and discuss climate change.

PS What do you think of old Tony's 'putting money before lives' comment yesterday? I suppose people like you totally agree with doing something like that.

Shadow Minister,

It is not my "snide attempts" that discredit Mr Abbott.
It's his own actions and behaviour that are on record
that clearly have done that as his record shows. And continue
to do so to this very day. I can't be held responsible for
his behaviour. And quoting what's on record does not amount
to anything "snide".

Foxy,

What actions? that he winked at someone (a hanging offence?) Standing in front of a sign or other BS.

Because the malicious lies were said by someone else does not make them true. Otherwise Shorten is a rapist and Juliar is a thief on much more substantial information.

Shadow Minister,

Tony Abbott's polling remained consistently at low
levels. We can rule out the way he walked, winked,
and ate raw onions. There were other factors involved
which are on record and all you have to do is
Google. I'll leave it up to you to find out why he was
so unpopular, why not only his own party but his
constituents ousted him.

Enjoy your day.

Foxy,

Your words are wasted on the likes of the shadowministers and the Abbotts of the world.

I have had to deal with people like shadowminister all my working life and I recognise him as being amongst those I put in the nasty persons category. They are users and bullies who think they are better than others generally because they are managers.

If you want to understand how shadowminister works then just have a look at how Abbott behaves.

Imagine shadowminister trying to do an Arts degree - what a joke that would be. I won't say he could do any better than Abbott did but I bet he definitely couldn't do any worse.

Mr O,

Thank You for sharing your experiences. You are
not the only one who's had those kind of
experiences or who feels that way as we can see
from the fact that Mr Abbott got ousted by his own
party as PM, and his constituents.

Foxy,

Did you see Tony Abbott on TV with his 'money before lives' comment? What did you think?

I think Albanese expressed the general consensus amongst caring people when he said that Abbott had reached an all time low.

Maybe Abbott should be made to confront the people who have lost loved ones in the nursing homes over the last month and be made to explain to them why he said it.

Some will say Abbott couldn't have sunk any lower in making that comment but we must keep in mind that he is a lawyer so yes there is a big chance he can get even lower.

I'm sure shadowminister is comfortable with Abbott's comment.

Mr O,

Mr Abbott is probably expressing the views he feels
his supporters want to hear. There will be quite a few
on this forum who will agree with his take on things.
However, as always, Mr Abbott tends to mis-read the
public.

Foxy,

I am perfectly capable of googling, and there are no instances of TA displaying misogyny that are not entirely fabricated by his political foes.

TA has worked with plenty of women and not one has described him as anything other than a perfect gentleman.

Rather than quoting other left whinge sources, try and come up with one fact on your own.

The appointment of the misogynistic Abbott to the British Board of Trade is ruffling a few feathers back in the Old Dart. Politicians from both sides are questioning his suitability, as are many public speaking organisations. Bug Ridden Boris, not wishing for another cock up like he is making with Covid-19, said the appointment has not been finalised.

Its a disgrace that the Mad Monk will be paid by a foreign power to undermine Australia's trade, whilst all the while collecting a very fat Australian taxpayer funded pension. I say put him on a boat, shove 10 quid in his pocket, and send him back from whence he came. Minus the pension of course!

Wow, ladies and gentlemen, Peta Credlin (female, married) worked with Tony Abbott for years, including when he was PM, and she had no problem with him, and on the contrary was full of praise for the gentleman, The Honourable Tony Abbott.
TA also has daughters, including one who is gay, and they think he is just a great bloke.
So, are we now to be taken-in by American 'Fake News', or Brit 'Fake News'!
It seems that almost everyone has an axe to grind these days, and they're not afraid to use it - when it suits their vested and very personal interests.
Shame on how low Politics and News have sunk.
Well, you may say, 'God save Australia', for Nothing will save Authenticity - unless we Demand it, and unless we refuse to be 'taken-in' by the bile and hogwash, and outright Lies.

I disagree wholeheartedly with Abbott's vexatious condemnation of Australia's approach to containing this noxious creeping virus - for I fully support Aus' approach, which has obviously saved many lives, and has kept the economy going after a trying but fairly effective fashion - but, Abbott has a right to his 'opinion' (however misguided), and a right to further damage his already mildly tarnished reputation.

Great Opposition Leader, but not very effective or convincing as PM. A pity about that.
And, 'The Great Trump' leaves Abbott totally in the shade when it comes to hype, BS and self-interest. Abbott, the novice.

Tony's mistake as PM was in not laying his cards on the table when addressing 'climate change' - that he favoured Aus' interests in coal and the economy - and he failed to emphasize Aus' minute, minuscule, negligible, infinitesimal emissions contribution, and failed to take the U.S. and China to task over their enormous, extraordinary, unbelievably massive emissions contribution.

And, was 'the Bull' really any improvement?
Tony, Firefighter, cyclist, dad, Statesman, and friend to Aus. A good bloke.

Dear Paul,

Mr Abbott just may find his niche in the UK -
and decide to stay. Who knows. In any case
I'm sure that Scott Morrison is quite happy
that the man is over there rather than here.

So Paul, who would you prefer, the misogynistic and racist Corbyn who couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery?

I noticed on the news this morning that the Brits are now becoming divided on the Tony Abbott appointment: some seeing hime for what he is and others seeing him for what he is not.

Please keep him because we definitely don't want him back here unless of course Barnaby Joyce pops up to tell us he wants to be the new Tony Abbott in Australia.

Two Tony Abbotts in the world - pretty creepy stuff.

So, where did the 'misogynist' label come from in the first place?
Juliar, perhaps?
The ball-busting, closet asexual minx?
Such a nice lady, and so talkative. (No carbon tax on her wish-list.)
Can academia be 'going to the dogs'?
Seems very likely.
Maybe Rudd and Gillard could put on a double-act Vaudeville block-buster?
Not on my wish-list, sorry.

The Honourable Sir Tony Abbott - has a nice ring to it!
(And, Earl of Warringah perhaps?)
Tony has already lost enough face by losing as PM and losing his 'seat'.
Surely he deserves a reasonable opportunity for a modest 'sea change'?
And, chances are he may make a great mate for Boris - they both 'cycle'.

Saltpetre,

Do you really think Abbott is English aristocratic material?

Maybe he can hook up with Prince Andrew who can introduce him to how the rich and famous conduct themselves on a Caribbean island.

Foxy,

I thought so, you are unable to produce a single instance of misogyny being displayed by Tony Abbott, yet continue to repeat the lies. There is no doubt as to what that makes you!

Foxy,

I get the impression that shadowminister belongs to the Tony Abbott Memorial Misogynists Club which meets every week to feed the chickens with each other.

Here chook chook chook!

Shadow Minister,

You obviously don't want to Google anything that
disagrees with your viewpoints. I can't help
you any further.

Dear Saltpetre,

It's Mr Abbott's sister who is gay.
Not one of his daughters.

Now back to the topic.

The Australian Financial Review, 3rd September 2020
tells us that - "The Westminster furore over former
PM Tony Abbott's putative "new gig as a trade adviser"
to Boris Johnson's government reached fever pitch on
Thursday as opposition leader Keir Starmer and Scottish
First Minister Nicola Sturgeon slammed his appointment".

We're told that PM Johnson seems to be the only senior
Tory not to have joined the fray, with his spokesman
telling the Downing street daily press briefing on
Thursday that - "no decisions" had yet been taken on
who would chair the government's new Board of TRade.

"I know there is a political debate on this today, but I
don't think there is anything I can add to it", the
spokesman said.

He refused to confirm whether Mr Abbott had even been
offered the job.

All very strange indeed.

Foxy

All very strange indeed .................... Just like Tony Abbott.

From Tony's Sister.
Councillor Christine Forster

"It is nothing short of dishonesty for commentators and politicians who do not know Tony to label him a “homophobe and a misogynist” for the purposes of scoring cheap political points. As a woman who has always been part of his life and who came out to him as gay in my early 40s, I know incontrovertibly that Tony is neither of those things. In reality he is a man of great conviction and intellect: an unabashed conservative but with great compassion, respect for others, and an indelible sense of doing what is right. These are qualities he has demonstrated time and again in his public life and since, as evidenced by his ongoing commitment to the Rural Fire Service during last summer’s devastating east coast bushfires. Tony would be an outstanding trade envoy for the UK, based on his track record as Prime Minister of delivering our three long-awaited and important trade deals with Japan, China and South Korea".

He is experienced in doing Trade deals, the name calling is FAKE.

Sorry Josephus,

when has facts ever mattered to the sneering hatred and spreading of lies by the lying left media and its supporters. They love to virtue signal due to total lack of credibility and despise people like Abbott who put so many runs on the board. Remember he stopped the illegals (when they all were dogmatic was it impossible), got rid of the lying carbon tax (again when the abc regressives and others said was impossible) and had the integrity to vote against perverting the marriage act. All before the slime bags in his party knifed him.

A very lovely statement from a gay sister.

However Tony Abbott's problem with women and gender
issues goes way back. Actually, to his university
days in the 1970s, when he expressed the view that -

"I think it would be folly to expect that women will ever
dominate or even approach equal representation in a large
number of areas simply because their aptitudes, abilities,
and interests are different for psychological reasons".

And this has continued with his consistent attitudes.

In 2010 - he came out with - "What the housewives of
Australia need to understand as they do the ironing..."

In 2012 - "That men were by physiology or temperament more
adapted than women to exercise authority and issue commands...

In 2013 - his reference to the sex appeal of Fiona Scott
MP for Lindsay."

In 2014 - The Winkgate scandal - when he was caught
winking mid-interview when a phone sex-worker called in.
He didn't realise he was still being filmed.

In 2015 Then PM delivered her famous misogyny speech.

Foxy,

There is definitely something wrong with the guy. He's just not the full quid.

MO,
Just 'tongue in cheek' don't ya know (poetic licence) - remember the idea of a Knighthood for the Duke of Edinburgh - and don't forget the successful elevation of General The Honourable Sir Peter Cosgrove AK. So, how about The Honourable Dame Julia Gillard AC and perhaps The Honourable Sir Kevin Michael Rudd AC (Order of the Silk Thistle)?

Dear Foxy,
Thanks for the correction.
But, as for - ".. opposition leader Keir Starmer and Scottish
First Minister Nicola Sturgeon slammed his appointment".
Have you observed the antics of these two in the UK?
Nicola is determined to achieve a 'free' Scotland; and as for Keir - well, his name says it all, a total waste of space - but at least he is a massive improvement on his predecessor Jeremy, the anti-Semite anti anything positive or constructive Corbyn.

Josephus,
Good onya for that posting.
Even the UK and the US reporters seem hell bent on perpetrating this entirely unjustified and unjustifiable vexatious reputation assassination of our Honourable Statesman, Tony.
The Fake News virus knows no bounds, it would seem.

Well, innuendo upon innuendo.
Housewives did do ironing once, didn't they?
(Or is 'housewife' now a dirty un-PC word?)

Parliamentary debate may not be as polite and considerate as we might like, but points do have to be made with vigour.

So, Tony is a bit 'macho' in his ideas - but surely not a full-blown 'male chauvinist'?
And, just when did simply being a 'man' warrant derision and disdain?

Admiring an attractive female surely puts the lie to any suggestion of 'misogyny'? (Or has PC determined this is now a form of 'harassment'?)

Oh, well, I guess we can't all be perfect, and maybe age and experience need to be allowed to amend some of the wild 'notions' youth is prone to?

Some stand reaching for the stars, searching for solutions to intolerance and seeking balance in a world battling so many dangerous waters, yet still, a few minor indiscretions may bring low even the greatest among us.
Such is the power of focus on the worst of Man (or Woman), rendering opportunity and promise to a cruel and undistinguished smudge - and promising fields left fallow.

If you cut me, do I not bleed?

Foxy,

You have failed to produce even one instance of TA displaying misogyny (women-hating). TA is not "woke" and while the comments he makes are political incorrect they are factual.

The facts are: Women and men of equal capabilities tend to choose different careers e.g. 97% of nurses and childcarers are women whilst the opposite is true for engineers and bricklayers and this trend is universal even in Scandinavia.

Therefore saying "I think it would be folly to expect that women will ever dominate or even approach equal representation in a large number of areas simply because their aptitudes, abilities,
and interests are different for psychological reasons". is a statement of fact, not a judgement or opinion.

Similarly, most housework is done by women. A fact, not opinion.

Similarly, the majority of women who reach high levels in corporations bailout in their 30s to start a family or to escape 80hr work weeks. Again this is a fact not an opinion.

Similarly, how on God's earth is winking during an interview construed as a misogynist by anyone other than complete morons?

As for Juliar's tirade after defending the most obscene anti-women comments by her speaker has to go down in history as one the most hypocritical speech ever.

Abbott's attitudes to women, including describing
abortion as "the easy way out" and stating that
men are better adapted than women to exercise
authority made international headlines in 2012 when
the then Australian PM Julia Gillard used a widely
shared speech in parliament to castigate his views.

Perhaps to some men all this is viewed simply as a person
just being a "man". (Mind you a certain type of man).
And yes, women did historically once do the ironing
and many still do - but the world has since moved on
and today gender roles are more flexible.

The fact that Tony Abbott is prone to "gaffes" is
well documented. From his suggestion that the climate
crisis is "probably doing good" and his linkage of
the policies to combat it to
"primitive people once killing goats to appease the
volcano gods". To his most recent railing against
COVID "health dictatorships"saying the economic cost
of lockdowns meant families should be allowed to
consider letting elderly relatives with COVID die by
"letting nature take its course".

So, it's no wonder that there currently is strong
opposition challenging Liz Truss to explain the
controversial appointment. There's also a growing number
of high-profile campaign groups that have also joined in
calls for Abbott's appointment to be blocked.

Things have begun to get serious in the UK.
"Where a very high profile and if we are frank -
controversial external individual looks set to be appointed
to a government role of immense importance the public are
naturally eager to understand not just why but how", stated
Emily Thornberry, the shadow international trade
secretary.

Mr Abbott's trade expertise has also been questioned.
The details of negotiating Australia's bilateral deals
were left to its then trade minister - Andrew Robb, not
Tony Abbott.

And the message that is repeatedly being heard in the UK
is that - "The sorry list of Tony Abbott's comments on
everything from climate change to gay marriage should
disqualify him from any government role because his
views are in stark contrast with the majority of the
UK public opinion".

cont'd ...

Yes if you cut them they will bleed - this is a
worthwhile adage and lesson for a controversial
individual like Tony Abbott to remember and in
future try to monitor his speeches so that they
would not be misunderstood or misinterpreted.

Where's Peta Credlin when she's needed?
(smile).

cont'd ...

I very much doubt that she's doing the ironing at home.

shadowminister,

I just read your last post above.

It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant you are.

Tony Abbott's position has been now officially confirmed
as of Friday 4th September 2020. It is to be an unpaid
position. Except of course - his Australian pension and
perks as a former PM. The question still remains - will
this position go against Australian interests. And is
there a conflict of interests here?

Foxy,

And how long before he opens his mouth to say something outlandish that will send all of his backers running for cover and regretting that they gave him the job?

Foxy,

All that you have shown is that TA does not believe the feminist dogma that men and women are physically and psychologically identical.

What you haven't shown is a single instance of TA's hatred for women.

The reality is that for the vast majority of cases today:
1 Women stay home to look after the children. This disrupts their careers and prevents many from even trying for leadership roles.
2 Women still do the ironing and most of the housework
3 Women still avoid STEM fields such as engineering

This is not to say that women can't change this, just that they don't want to. That women are boosted into power based on a quota has largely been a failure with Juliar being a prime example.

As for TA's suitability for the job, perhaps you would care to point out someone better suited? As for his potential bias, as it is pure conjecture on your part perhaps you should show why he would be.

Otherwise, all of this is simply left whinge hysteria.

Shonky Minister,

Questions are being asked if Abbott, as a former PM, will be using knowledge gained in that position to sell Australia out to a foreign regime. Australia should cut Abbott's pension off, and since he is a proven misogynist cut a pair of something else off at the same time, not that he has any!

BTW, did you spot that clown Bug Ridden Boris, praising the Mad Monk? No wonder the Poms have made such a cock up of the covid-19 response with that fool in charge.

Paul1405,

It's easy to see that the shadowminister has no training in anthropology and sociology.

Mr O, but he is very good at waving his tin cup at passerby's, while mumbling "a few pennies for a poor vet"..... bet you didn't know he was once an animal doctor, did you.

Paul1405,

He won't engage with me in discourse because he hates it when I keep reminding him that he is just an engineer and that he doesn't have any training in the fascinating Arts things like history, anthropology, archaeology, sociology, philosophy, etc.

He should take himself back to uni and do an Arts degree but he won't because he keeps telling everybody that he already knows about all that stuff (it came to him a dream I suppose) and he doesn't need to acquire the skills needed to engage in these areas.

He's your typical chicken feeder: "Here chook chook chook!"

Shadow Minister,

I certainly have NOT tried to show Mr Abbott's hatred
of women neither did I follow any "feminist dogma" as
you infer that men and women are physically and
psychologically identical. That is YOUR own interpretation
of what you think I have done and it is as always WRONG.

This has nothing to do with "hatred" but everything to
do with prejudice, stereotyping, inequality, and gender roles
and what those should be in our society.

Mr Abbott's views are based on the old system where everyone
knew what their roles were and most people unquestionably
behaved as they were "supposed" to.

Men are now permitted a more gentle and expressive
personality than would have been considered appropriate a few
decades ago. The 1959s "John Wayne" image of manhood has
less and less appeal to both sexes today.

Our society today is more individualistic and men and
women are exploring a wide variety of possible roles.

As I've stated many times on this forum - today a person's
individual human qualities, rather than his or her
biological sex is the primary measure of that person's
worth and achievement.

And that is something that unfortunately you
don't appear to understand or grasp.

Mr O,

Mr Abbott has already opened his mouth about
allowing the elderly to die under COVID.
The man is not about to change. Peta Credlin
kept a tight leash on him in the past. Now he's
on his own.

Foxy,

The Brits are pretty smart so I think they will keep an eye on him and pull into line.

The Brits don't want him because of what he can do; they want him for his connections and what that will bring to the table get the British economy back into action.

PS

Have you caught the Netflix TV drama series 'Narcos (Mexico)' (2 seasons x 10 episodes each)? Absolutely brilliant film-making and great for anyone wanting to understand the rise of the Mexican drug cartels.

I binge watched it and now onto 'Narcos' (3 seasons) about the rise of the Columbian cartels, Pablo Escobar etc.

Mr O,

I've seen Narcos advertised at the JB HI Fi stores
here in Melbourne. Three seasons.
I will look into them as you suggest.
It would make a great gift for my husband - who's
very interested in things Mexican - we traveled
all over the country and loved its rich heritage.

Foxy,

It's available on Netflix. Save buying the DVDs if you have Netflix.

If you don't have Netflix it costs about $12 per month to subscribe. Or might be on one of the other providers (e.g. Stan) if you have one.

That and SBS streaming is enough to feed my TV appetite at low cost.

Mr O,

Thank You for that information.

Most helpful.

Well, where's our resident sociologist/anthropologist when you need him/her - to sort out this role-play mess for us - in this age of gender equality, inequality, uncertainty, rejection and dysphoria?

Life was so easy, when men were men and women were women.
Now, are men supposed to cultivate their 'feminine side' to be accepted - or does this only apply to non-sportspeople (non-bruisers)?
Arnie, Dwayne, Sylvester, - Our Tony? How's the fit?
Or, Kevin, Bill, Simon and Anthony, or Scott, Michael or Josh?

And in the red corner we have Julia, Kristina and Tanya? Dare we add Penny?

So many roles, so little time. Become head scientist, solve quantum computing, gaze down from the International Space Station, head a bank or hedge-fund, mining company or fashion line, write a hit song, make a hit movie, bake a cake?

Are we each confined to our strengths, aptitudes, innate leanings? Or, must we try reversing roles and reject sexuality - and stay sane?

Why same-sex marriage when we had civil union (and recognition of de-facto partners under common law) anyway?
Life not confusing enough?

Clearing away, washing dishes - fine.
Doing washing - no problem.
Having babies - not in the ball park.
Being a 'subordinate' - necessary at work - but equals at home.

We all may seek a 'compatible' mate/partner - but not all succeed. What to do? Is it me? What's wrong?

Not all fit comfortably in one notional basket or another.
Free to be yourself, or need to conform to an evolving stereotype?

Live and let live - no 'easy' labeling, feigned tolerance or staunch rejection. A two-way street, free of prejudices and preconceptions.
Humanity is complex - and women are the most complex by a mile.

Tony may be a bit of a 'drong' at times, but he's our drong, and many of us reckon there's no need to put on 'airs and graces', he's fine, he's an Aussie.

Foxy,

Since the definition of misogyny is "Hatred of women." you have just admitted that Abbott is not a misogynist.

Secondly, TA has never claimed that women should not be permitted to do anything and has made it clear that he is fully in favour of equal opportunity. And women are choosing to do everything from being fighter pilots and engineer etc. The reality, however, is that the given equal opportunity, most women avoid these professions and they remain dominated by men. This is not due to discrimination simply biology. Similarly, while some men chose to stay at home and do most of the housework or nursing, these men are in a tiny minority. Stating the facts, however, unfashionable is what is needed not the simpering sycophants.

Finally, the claim that he said that perhaps the elderly should be left to die hasn't got a single person that has actually claimed to hear him say that. That sounds like yet another left whinge fabrication that they are so fond of.

You also failed to show any other viable alternative.

Shadow Minister,

You continue to argue without any substance.
Sounding more like an echo chamber - only
listening to your own voice.

I shall leave you to continue to do just that
as you obviously do not wish to Google the facts
and they are there on record for all to see.

Tony Abbott is what he is and has always been.
Even his own party and constituents have seen
that. But by all means - continue to deny. Kudos
to you!

Foxy,

I'm sure you have better things to do than argue the point with the shadowminister.

PS Do you think anyone will post a discussion surrounding the Blue Mtns family shown on 60 Minutes last night who were wrongfully incarcerated as a result of false allegations of sex crimes brought against them by the State of NSW?

Mr O,

I am not familiar with that event. I did not watch
60 Minutes last night.

Yes, it is an absolute disgrace.

There is something on it in MSN News on the web if you want to read up on it.

Foxy,

I have been 100% consistent. You have claimed that TA is a misogynist (woman hater) yet have admitted that there is no evidence that TA hates women. Neither is there any evidence where TA claims that women should be restricted to female roles, simply that men and women are biologically and physiologically different and choose different roles which has been confirmed statistically.

Finally, you take a comment attributed to TA from zero sources as the gospel truth as much as you accepted that Shorten was innocent of rape even though there was no proof.

You continue to swallow the left whinge propaganda without any due consideration then act offended when challenged.

That Krudd drove his female assistants to tears draws not a single word of condemnation from you.

Shadow Minister,

In the wake of former PM Gillard's speech on misogyny
in Parliament, in particular from then oppoistion
leader Tony Abbott, Sue Butler, Editor of The Macquarie
Dictionary made an announcement stating that The
Macquarie was moving from the outmoded definition of
misogyny "hatred of women" to reflect current usage
which is a "synonym for sexism with a stronger edge to it".

And, as I tried to explain to you earlier (on page 22),
this was not about "hatred of women" but about Mr Abbott's
entrenched prejudices which are well documented.

Foxy,

This is the problem, what you claim is well documented is anything but. All you have is snippets of innuendo such as his "winking" or when he comments on a scientifically proven tendency of women he must be sexist because it goes against the left whinge dogma.

Look at all the women that worked for him. Peta Credlin is one who experienced misogyny only from Labor and the greens. All the powerful women working with him thought he was fantastic.

The women working for Rudd thought he was an arsehole.

Foxy,

To quote women who were close to TA incl Christine Forster who you quoted out of context earlier:

"Women who are close to Mr Abbott have come out in fierce defence of him. Peta Credlin, Mr Abbott’s one-time chief of staff and now a media personality, told UK’s TalkRadio: “Even in parliament for 25 years every single one of his chiefs of staff were women. It is complete and utter rubbish (he is a misogynist). The guy’s got three sisters, a very strong, independent wife and three daughters. He’s not a misogynist.”

Tony Abbott’s sister Christine Forster slammed the British critics who have castigated him as a homophobe and misogynist saying they are “nothing short of dishonest.”

Ms Forster said: “As a woman who came out to him as gay in my early 40s, I know incontrovertibly that Tony is neither of those things. In reality he is a man of great conviction and intellect ....with great compassion, respect for others and an indelible sense of doing what’s right."

Foxy,

I concur with the shady shadowminister about Tony Abbott not being a misogynist. I do not see any evidence that Abbott hates women.

But his attitude towards women is contemptible. He treats women with contempt because he has a patriarchal view of the world. His world is one in which men have control over everything except childbirth and women play a secondary role in which their status is that of being a vehicle for a foetus.

I think it is time for Tony Abbott to come out. An event that is long over due. I wonder if the shady shadowminister can offer any suggestions on this point.

Ms Gillard to stay in power backed Peter Slipper who tweeted about women's gentila ('shell-less mussles). Like every regressive hypocrite she was more concerned about power and Tony Abbott winking than any principle or concern for women's rights. She also opposed 'gay' marriage as PM until she felt the tide had turned. She hated Abbot because he was smarter, stuck to his principles (she had none) and showed her hypocrisy.

Shadow Minister,

You think you are correct. I think you are
not correct.
There is nothing more to say.

runner,

I really can no longer take you seriously.

Foxy,

Two of the women closest to TA don't agree with you and you rely on left whinge critics that in reality know little to nothing about the man, it appears that you can't be taken seriously either.

Shadow Minister,

His family and friends will naturally defend him.
The same as Trump's family defends him.

However Mr Abbott's prejudices are well documented
as we all know.

Foxy,

There you go again. As Christine Forster was one of your prime sources to prove that TA was a women hater, I have shown conclusively that you have quoted her out of context.

That you can't find a single instance where TA has shown prejudice against women shows that most of what you claim is pure bollocks and what you claim to be well documented is either snippets taken out of context or purely fabricated.

There far more evidence that Gillard deliberately lied to voters and was knowingly involved in fraud than TA was a misogynist.

Foxy,

I really don't understand why you want to keep arguing with the shadyminister.

You are an educated woman and he is just an engineer.

It's chalk and cheese.

Think about it. Why waste your time?

You won't get anywhere. He doesn't have any training in all the Arts things like history, anthropology, sociology, archaeology, philosophy, etc. like we do.

Shadow Minister,

You were the one who brought Tony Abbott's sister into
this discussion not me in an attempt to try to score
points. I merely stuck to the man's prejudices which
are well documented and which you prefer to deny.

It's your choice of course what you choose to believe.
I prefer facts to opinions.

I shall leave you to it.

Mr O,

I blame myself for expecting more from Shadow Minister.
However I shan't be responding to him any further on
this topic. There's nothing more to say.

Tony Abbott - volunteer surf lifesaver, firefighter, charity bike-ride fundraiser, family man, politician, Christian - a man who has been giving for the majority of his adult life, for the benefit of others.

Blimey, why spend all that time in the interest of others - when they're not going to appreciate it in the long run, are going to look for chinks in your armour, find faults, deride and damn you for being a nondescript ordinary bloke.

Boisterous in youth, spruiking to fellow students a chauvinistic view of the role of women in 1970's Australia (and maybe the world) - before Merkel or Thatcher were able to re-shape world views and overturn post-WWII male attitudes.
Loser. Never amount to anything.

Each of us maintains a set of attitudes, mostly based on life experience - and much affected by early childhood learning and by exposure to generally held attitudes 'of the day'.

Part of our attitude-set is based on our 'beliefs' - beliefs inculcated from early religious instruction (or indoctrination perhaps), from parental teachings and example, and then influenced by progressive exposure to life - in school, the playground, work, social interaction and endeavours to succeed.

To grow in life means not just in physical stature but in perception and mental development, in understanding of society, culture, morality, ethics, worth and values and personal accountability for outcomes and repercussions.

To grow is to question and re-examine, to re-evaluate in the light of ever evolving circumstance - for we are not individually fully in control of circumstances and must be willing to be flexible in our reaction - or risk being left behind in thinking and potential.

No perfect human beings, all fallible, all to some extent gullible, all constrained in capacity and potential - but all capable of striving to be the best we can be, if willing to try.

Show me someone who boasts they never made an error, and you will be showing me a bald-faced liar.

Quick to judge exhibits laziness, prejudice or unwillingness to evolve - a stick in the mud, or lost cause.
Et tu Brute?

Quick to judge?

NO. On the contrary - Tony Abbott's personal style
has always been a source of discontent both inside
and outside his party. And as I have stated in this
discussion, it's all been well documented.

Of course in government, his minders have kept him
on a tight rein (Peta Credlin), sticking to a script
that regularly tried to focus on the government's
achievements ( stopping the boats). But, as Malcolm
Turnbull pointed out - these wore a bit thin after a
while and stopped resonating with voters. The country
needed "advocacy not slogans".

The Australian people were more intelligent. Abbott was
ousted not only by his own party but from his own
electorate.

Where his loyalty lies will be clearly shown by his
behaviour in the future:

http://www.crikey.com.au/2020/09/03/tony-abbott-uk-loyalty/

Foxy,

Your prejudices are clear and undeniable. Abbott's major crime was to shred the career of the feminist darling Juliar. In tearing down first the narcissistic bully Rudd, then the lying shrew Gillard he earned the enmity of the left whinge and especially those half-wits that equated attacking a fraudulent PM with being a woman-hater.

That Juliar has been relegated to tokenist positions while TA gets a senior international posting has the feminist luvvies foaming at the mouth.

Shadow Minister,

Tony Abbott's political career, his prejudices,
his gaffes, are all well documented.
The man was and continues to be a controversial
character. Out of his own mouth - he is judged
and by his own actions. So much so that his own
party ousted him as did his electorate.

The
position he's been offered in the UK - has
attracted a great deal of criticism from various
sides of politics. What kind of a mark the man will
leave and how much of an effect he will be allowed
to have by his female boss, Liz Truss, with
whom he shares the job, - is still
to be seen. Time will tell if he stuffs this up.

As for Julia Gillard?

Julia Gillard has been appointed as the new CHAIR of
the Wellcome Trust. A London based organisation that
aims to take on big health challenges by supporting
researchers and campaigning for better science.

RIGHT NOW - Wellcome is also one of the globe's biggest
investors in medical research, including on the search
for a COVID-19 vaccine.

In addition to that the former PM currently serves as the
Chair of Global Partnership for Education (since 2014),
which is dedicated to expanding educational access and
quality worldwide.

She's also been involved with Beyond Blue (Jeff kennett
recommended her for the job), since 2017.
Beyond Blue is Australia's leading
mental health awareness body.
Then there's The Global Institute for
Women's Leadership
at King's College London - since 2018.

On top of that she's an Honorary Professor at the
University of Adelaide, since 2013. Regularly guest
lecturing in the Department of History and Politics as well
as hosting interns from the University in her office each
year. She's also received an honorary Doctorate in
April 2019.

The following link gives more:

http://www.juliagillard.com.au/current-work/

cont'd ...

Shadow Minister,

I need to make a correction.

Tony Abbott's position is merely advisory - and
not shared with Liz Truss. He's just an advisor
and his advice can be taken or ignored. As Boris
Johnson has made quite clear - he does not always
listen to the many advisers he has on the boards
across the country. Wise move probably especially in
this case.

Foxy,

As I said token roles for Juliar.

Also, she never kept any of her promises and deliberately broke one iron-clad promise she made only a few weeks later.

She was fired from Gordon and Slatter for dishonesty and took cash handouts from union crooks after helping them defraud businesses.

If TA had pulled any of this crap, we would still be hearing about it.

As negotiating trade deals with foreign countries the PM has the final sign off and say. The trade minister supervises the multi $bn negotiations based on the work done by the 16 advisors of which TA is a senior one.

Dear shadyminister,

I think Abbott's talents are wasted on the UK.

He should really be doing this job for China.

In fact you should migrate to China as well. Because you're just that kind of guy.

Shadow Minister,

Tony Abbott is but just one of many advisers in one job.
Julia Gillard was and is the top gun in many jobs.

Big difference and no comparison.

You're clinging to straws.

Whoa, Dear Foxy, the impasse looms and the fork in the road beckons.
Let's not all fall-out on a simple matter of divergent opinion.

Abbott is not so important; but what is important is the contrast in perceptions as we seek truth and conviction.
You and I, and some others, appear to differ in our observations regarding Abbott and Gillard.

Now, I'm not being 'sexist' but as you are female it is natural that you would look favourably on a demonstrably successful Julia.
But who wouldn't?
What could possibly act to sway anyone to question the underlying fundamentals of the 'real' Julia - or similarly of the 'real' Tony?
(And, elsewhere of course, of the 'real' Donald Trump?)

Can it be that our perception of others may be heavily influenced by our own personality and an innate tendency to be drawn to those exhibiting similar personality traits - and against, of course, those whose personalities and demeanor are at odds with our own, who 'jangle' on us?

Can we simply trust our own judgement, our 'appraisal' of character and 'personality', or should we take greater heed of an individual's actions and endeavours rather than their 'appearance'? Or of how we may 'relate'?

Julia has all the hallmarks of success and achievement - more so than Abbott - yet I harbour reservations.
I must seek the 'why'.

Perhaps we all need to seek the 'why'.

Dear Saltpetre,

No. I tend to give credit where credit is due.
Julia Gillard has earned hers. Tony Abbott has
not. It's that simple!

I don't have to ask the WHY? in Tony Abbott's case
it comes out of his mouth and his actions - both of
which are well documented.

We shall have to agree to disagree on this one.

Foxy,

You are right there is a vast difference. TA is involved in a huge project upon which the welfare of nearly 70m people relies whereas if Juliar didn't pitch to any of the token jobs to which she has been appointed no one would probably notice.

For example Juliar is being appointed "chair" of a medical investment trust in spite of having zero experience in finance or medicine. I can guarantee that the CEO calls the shots and Juliar pitches up once a month for board meetings. Much the same as Angelina Jolie's work as a UN "ambassador".

The UK hasn't negotiated a trade deal in 45 years and needs help from competent and seasoned players not virtue signalling relics.

cont'd ...

Dear Saltpetre,

I have to admit that after giving it more
thought - to me Tony Abbott represents
the worst of what Australia was/is, (as many of
our multi-cultural friends have expressed).

Sadly, the man is not capable of change but then
neither are the rest of us. So you are right - an
impasse has been reached. Thank heaven he's gone
to the UK and hopefully he shall stay there.

Who knows he may try for the prime ministership
over there (after the knighthood of Philip, nothing
would surprise). ( joke).

Shadow Minister,

Right on cue - you're still trying to make us see
how important Tony's UK job is.

What any of us think really doesn't matter all that
much in the general scheme of things. His actual
performance will prove with the test of time and it's
actually now England's problem - not ours.

Foxy,

For me, Juliar represents the worst of Australia, a fraudulent person with the morals of wharf rat that is prepared to lie outright and claim victimhood based on her gender each time she is called to account.

I am glad that she has not been given any position where she can do any damage. and I will be glad if I never hear of her again.

Abbott has the opportunity to meld the future relationships between the UK, Aus, NZ and Asia as he treads the world stage.

Shadow Minister,

You've expressed your anti-Julia feelings on this
forum many times. Therefore they are not surprising.

As for Mr Abbott? He's had plenty of chances in
the past - we can only hope that he'll do less
damage this time.

Time will tell.

cont'd ...

Shadow Minister,

I forgot to ask -

Based on your description of Julia Gillard it appears
that you are confusing her with Donald Trump.
Who's done so much damage to date and does have the morals
of a wharf rat.

Julia on the other hand is a classy
lady - whose true class can never receive the highest
grade for its grade is endless.

Juliar does have a lot in common with Trump ethically.

The only reason that she went into politics is that she was fired from her legal firm for corruption and no respectable company would touch her with a barge pole. That she was also shagging one or more union heavies got her into the labor party. I believe that there are streetwalkers with more class and she is nowhere near TA in that area.

Juliar's carbon tax lie was probably one of the most disgraceful episodes in parliamentary history.

Shadow Minister,

Now you have really sunk low - spruiking total
and utter rubbish about our former female PM.

Julia Gillard was in her 2nd year at university when
she was introduced to politics by the daughter of a
state Labor Minister. Accordingly she joined the
Labor Club - a student movement which she eventually
lead nationally when she became involved in a campaign
to fight federal education budget cuts.

And since she's left politics she has fastened a legacy
that extends beyond parliamentary policy with a focus on
women's rights, education and mental health.

She graduated with an Arts/Law degree, joined the law firm
of Slater and Gordon in 1987 and was a partner by 1990.

She also worked on affirmative action campaigns in the 1990s.
And was a founding member of Labor women's support network
Emily's List Australia.

She continues to maintain this focus on gender in education
in her post politics advocacy.

She is highly respected on both sides of politics.
Even Mr Abbott attended the 2018 unveiling of her official
portrait.

Shame on you.

There's more at:

http://www.theconversation.com/how-julia-gillard-forever-changed-australian-politics-especially-for-women-138528

Foxy,

Everything I said was true. She did get fired from Slater and Gordon for corrupt activities, and as this was well known in legal circles she was essentially unemployable.

That she was shagging a union-heavy that was involved in the fraudulent rip off of companies using the "slush fund" she set up is also not in dispute.

That she then went into politics where her union connections helped her greatly is also not in dispute.

That she is admired by both sides of politics is pure wishful thinking as even amongst Labor there are many who hate her.

Shadow Minster,

What you have said and continue to bandy about are wild
unsubstantiated allegations around issues that would
have long ago lost currency if it had not been for
Julia Gillard's rise to the top.

She was not fired from Slater and Gordon. She resigned.

No wrong doing on Julia Gillard's part was ever proven.
She has always strenuously denied the accusations or
that she had done anything wrong.

I won't go into the details here with you but there are
plenty of links and websites that explain what did go
on and who was involved with wrong doing. All you have to
do is Google the sites.

It was not Julia Gillard.

I do not see the point in continuing this discussion with you
as I get the impression that you are merely stirring and
are not really interested in the facts.

Foxy,

They are well documented.

Juliar was shagging a union-heavy and set up a "slush fund" for him which was used to defraud businesses of a large sum of money. That her house was renovated by union-related businesses for which she has no record of paying is also well documented.

When this came to light an enquiry at S&L resulted in Juliar being told to resign (non-optional) or in common parlance she was fired.

That there was no documentation means that there is insufficient evidence for a criminal prosecution, but the level of proof is well beyond anything you have against TA.

That she went on to blatantly lie to the voters in 2010 damaged her to the point where she was a liability to the party.

Foxy,

You and the shadyminister are just arguing the same point over and over again.

It's making you look silly and with your education you should not appear to look silly.

Doesn't matter if the shadyminister looks silly because he is just an engineer.

Mr O,

I'm not arguing.

I'm simply explaining why I'm right.

Julia Gillard was made a partner at Slater and
Gordon and when she became PM they sent her a
lovely letter of Congratulations - it's on the
web. They would not have done that had she been
fired from her job as SM claims.

Any how - I'm done here.

See you on another discussion.

Foxy,

You are being naive.

When Gillard became PM she could have done a big fat turd on the boardroom table at Slater and Gordon and they still would have sent her a very nice letter.

That's what lawyers are like.

Dearest Foxy,

" Tony Abbott represents the worst of what Australia was/is, (as many of our multi-cultural friends have expressed)."

Finally a clear demonstration of your true feelings regarding 'multiculturalism' in Australia and Aussies in general - that is white, male, public school educated, plain talking, sports loving, beer drinking, and of course only too happy to help out a mate (but not including Bob Hawke of course, always the exception to any 'rule' in the poetic licence world of 'personal perception') - the dinky-di Aussie - the dog-poo beneath Foxy's boot.
Just lovely, and many of your multi-cultural friends agree?
So much for multiculturalism, and the token assent and consent by Europeans and others who really know better (but keep it under the belt, for appearances sake at least).

Thank you Foxy,
Tony Abbott, volunteer, straight talker, just another ocker Aussie 'joke'.

I just hope you never have to face a destructive bushfire, or have to watch helpless when one of your super-duper cultural friends is caught in a rip or gets a cramp in the surf and has to rely on some good old Aussie 'drongo' to rip on out to save their oh so valuable ....

Where's the Tony and his mates when you really need them?
Off helping some UK drongo perhaps?

Tony, among other notable achievements performed at least one service to the Nation of Australia for which the majority of Real Australians (of any colour) will remain eternally grateful - he got rid of Kreepy KRudd and the go-for-the-throat 'Gillardopterix'.

Tony Abbott, the giver.
Julia Gillard, the taker.
End of story.
Just suck it up.

Dear Saltpetre,

Politicians are like poultry - roosters today and
feather dusters tomorrow.

I'm so sorry to learn that you think I am some sort of
worm.

I guess we're all worms, but I do believe I am a
glow-worm.

As for Tony Abbott?

You claim that -

He's the sort of man who lives for others?

You can tell the others by their hunted expression.

As for sucking it up?

I prefer to use a straw.

Well, Dear Foxy, I give up, the line has been drawn, crossed and re-crossed and the chasm ever deepens.

Glow-worms or gastrointestinal parasitic Ascarids (bio-luminescent or otherwise) shed no light of consequence. Pity.

On further reflection you may have a point.
Tony Abbott and I and quite a few others may well be dupes.
Why stand weekend after weekend in Summer staring over the shimmering waves searching for any who may stray into the path of board riders or into trouble of any kind?
Why drop everything and rush out to grab a hose only to be greeted by smoke and flame and distress, mindful of widow-makers in the brush or live electricity or gas canisters or hazardous chemicals in someone's burning house or shed?
Why indeed should some be called, by who knows what instinct, to do, while so many others stand idly by, ever ready to find fault, and who indeed may relish in their conviction of "I don't do nothin' for nobody for nothin'" - the majority of the me, myself, I brigade?

Dupes, suckers, part of the idiot perhaps 2 percent - while the 98% do squat, but will squawk something wicked at any inconvenience.

Life wasn't meant to be easy, for some.

Politicians of any persuasion may indeed be merely roosters or hens scratching for purpose, from who knows what motivation, possibly and even conceivably with confirmed dedication to the wellbeing of the ever-squawking masses. Or, maybe not.

Jacinda Ardern, Angela Merkel, Theresa May - giving or having given all, only for self-interest?
I think of them far more kindly.

Homing pigeons and even bees may be honestly guided by instinct and the Earth's magnetic field, but unfortunately we may remain guileless, even with the best intent, hounded and floundering in a storm of disparate interests.
Anyway, who cares? (Bated or Baited? Seriously?)

Foxy,

From the documentation and testimony submitted it is crystal clear that after it became clear that the legal entity that Juliar set up for her union boyfriend was used to defraud the unions and business, that Slater and Gordan were no longer prepared to have Juliar as a partner. Her resignation was requested by the other partners and she had no option to remain as a partner. If she'd challenged this dismissal she would have run the risk of being disbarred. With that black mark against her name no other legal firm would take her on.

That the firm of Slater & Gordan who derive a substantial portion of their fees from Labor gave her warm congratulations on becoming PM is hardly surprising. That when she left politics no one offered her a position in a legal firm is far more telling.

The abysmal ethics of her carbon tax lie and her strong defense of the clearly abhorent Craig Thompson and Peter Slipper will haunt her for years.

Dear Saltpetre,

I appreciate your view of my opinion through your
own filters and perspective.

I know who I am, and what I stand for, so instead of
engaging and trying to explain and validate my
opinions to you, I have decided to move on.

"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark:
the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the
light".
(Plato).

Foxy,

Perhaps someday you may emerge blinking into the light from you self imposed exile from the truth.

I see Alexander Downer has landed a 3-year trade consulting post. It looks like liberal MPs are in demand post-politics. Not so much Labor.

Shadow Minister,

Let go of your dogma and see the
facts. Take off your blinkers.
This is not a competition. We don't
need to compare - "My side is better and
bigger than yours". Each should be judged
individually. Foe example:

Take a look at what Kevin Rudd has achieved post
politics:

http://www.kevinrudd.com/kevin/

Look up what Wayne Swan, Craig Emerson and others are
doing today.

You should be well aware that politics for all its rough
edges is a civilised and civilising calling. Despite all
the obloquy shovelled on the head of politicians they are
the men and women who work the machinery of our liberal
democratic way of life. They reflect public opinion
and at their best lead public opinion and transform it into
laws that shape our society and our country.

cont'd ...

We need people who devote themselves to laying a
basis for the prosperity of future generations
and to heightening the respect the world pays to and
owes our country.

We do have unresolved problems that face us, especially
addressing Indigenous disadvantage, dealing with the
structure of federalism, water shortages, land
management, the environment, immigration,
and so on. We must deal with these to move forward as a
free, fair, and vibrant society and I have no doubt we
can find the solutions that suit us provided we do not
succumb to the siren calls of demagogues, charlatans and
ideologues.

The achievements of the past decades have laid an extraordinary
foundation. Properly preserved and built
on we now have apportunities we never had before
in Australia's history.
The best years for our country are still ahead of us.

Foxy,

That you fired the first shots in this debate makes you latest post a little unctuous.

https://www.afr.com/policy/economy/abbott-s-the-right-man-to-help-boris-on-trade-20200910-p55uh3

"It is true that Tony Abbott was more involved in trade than the prime ministers who both preceded and proceeded him. His impact on the trade outcomes during his prime ministership – which included the conclusion of China, Japan and South Korea Free Trade Agreements (FTA) – were threefold.

First, Abbott declared in the lead-up to the 2013 election that all three trade agreements, sitting unfinished under a distracted Rudd-Gillard-Rudd government, would be completed within 12 months. Second, he insisted on an “open for business” mindset across all portfolios, but especially the internationally oriented ones. Finally, he had a terrific, warm, and ‘make it happen’ relationship with Prime Minister Narendra Modi, which almost resulted in an FTA with India."

Shadow Minister,

Well what can I say.
Your exaggerated claims about Mr Abbott's "success"
and " effectiveness"
is little more than hyperbole.

What you choose to believe is no longer of any interest
to me.

Foxy,

The financial review thinks that he is superb for the job as do many other people, the only ones that don't are still smarting from the trouncing he gave labor in 2013.

Threat to holding an opinion destroys your potential.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LVrH6Vm-BA&pp=wgIECgIIAQ%3D%3D&feature=push-sd&attr_tag=OFG_iPdrMcdCoyRy%3A6

Dear Josephus,

Talking about opinions. The following link explains:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201609/the-psychology-behind-donald-trumps-unwavering-support

Shadow Minister,

"The troucing Abbott gave Labor?"

Well, let's see. He did not win the support of the
Independents to form government. Indeed, the
Independents were scathing of Abbott's approach to
the negotiations - claiming he begged for their
support.

Then we have the Gillard Government's legislative
record which is substantial and was negotiated
through a parliament where they did not have a majority
in either house and often in the teeth of ferocious
media criticism.

Yet it passed and assented over 420 bills
by the Governor-General. It didn't have ANY bills
defeated in the House of Reps where Abbott only needed
to switch two votes to defeat any bills, or to pass a
motion of no confidence in the government.

Abbott was unable
to prevent the government from either implementing
its program, or -
let alone frustrate Labor's ability to govern.

He was unable to slow down the government's agenda or
force an early election. The most memorable moment (as
seen by us all on television) occurred in the chamber,
when Abbott ran out\to avoid being counted in a vote.

You really need to move on and stop embarrassing yourself
with your one-eyed nonsense. It's tiresome.

cont'd ...

Now that he's advising the British government - he may
well trounce them! What will Boris Johnson then do.
Interesting times ahead.

Dear Foxy,

Thanks for that link - it explains a lot regarding the Republican vs Democrat divide (Conservative vs Liberal divide, in US speak), and most particularly explains a great deal about Donald Trump's following':

"Essentially, they’re not smart enough to realize they’re dumb."
"And if one is under the illusion that they have sufficient or even superior knowledge, then they have no reason to defer to anyone else’s judgment."

'Dumb' and 'Illusion' are key words here - fantastic!

A brilliant explanation, and clearly identifies why Biden and Harris really have the job ahead of them.

That link would also provide some telling and much-needed 'illumination' on the 'Trump' and the 'Joe Biden' threads - and possibly even on the 'Preservation of Species' thread.

I am also impressed with this earlier posting of yours on this thread:

".. politics for all its rough edges is a civilised and civilising calling.
Despite all the obloquy shovelled on the head of politicians they are the men and women who work the machinery of our liberal democratic way of life. They reflect public opinion and at their best lead public opinion and transform it into laws that shape our society and our country."

'Obloquy' - such a magic word! Brilliant!

However, your latest posting serves very well to remind us of the absolute failure of the Rudd/Gillard parliaments to achieve anything constructive in the Climate arena or for enterprise, farming, exports, industrial relations or the environment - but did produce overly expensive school halls and a pink batts debacle, and left a national debt overshadowing the Grand Canyon - despite coming in with a very healthy surplus in the bank.

Smoke and mirrors. Nice try at revisionary history.
Anyhow, I have no further interest. See ya.

Dear Saltpetre,

We all know the facts - they are well documented.
An election was lost by the government rather than
won by the opposition. Infighting, disunity, people
get sick of that. However Mr Abbott's legacy is on
record:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-34241486

And what memorable record Mr Abbott will now leave
compared to the post political achievements of our
other former PMs - like Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard,
we shall have to wait and see.

As I said earlier - interesting times ahead.

So you liked the use of "obloquy".

I could have used - "animadversion", "disapprobation",
"deprecation" "disparagement" "excoriation" or any other
word for disesteem or disfavour or dim view. But I also
liked obloquy. (smile).

cont'd ...

Dear Saltpetre,

I love reading your posts and look
forward to reading them.

Please continue posting.

Foxy,

For starters, I was talking about 2013 when Labor got the lowest % of the primary vote in history. But also the three turncoats that betrayed their electorates, i.e. Tony whinger and Rob Oakeshott and Peter Slipper had their political futures obliterated.

As for 2010, Juliar saw a massive Labor majority reduced to a minority government meaning that she had to rely on the greens and 2 national party turncoats, Craig Thompson and Peter Slipper to cling to power the cost of which required the breaking of a solemn oath to the electorate which not only destroyed her reputation in the electorate but that of Labor and the whole carbon abatement movement which even in 2019 kept labor in opposition.

Abbott's legacy is not only fixing problems such as the migrant crisis and removing the odious carbon tax, but damaging Labor so badly that it will be out of power for at least 12 years and maybe a lot longer.

Shadow Minister,

You really are an embarrassment.

The election was lost by the government - rather than
won by the opposition. Due to the infighting and
disunity. A lesson that the current government has
yet to learn. And where in politics is Tony Abbott
today? Ah yes, he was so "successful"and "effective"
that his party ousted him as did his electorate.

And what he will achieve in the UK has yet to be seen.
If his p[ast legacy is anything to go by - I'd shut
the F ... up if I were you.

Foxy,

Funny how when the coalition had the same problems they still won the election. What amazes me is how naive you can be.

PMs are not dropped when they are competent and handling the issues. Juliar was tossed like a used nappy when it was clear that she was so damaged that she could not win the next election, especially when Labor polling dropped to 25%.

Tony's past legacy is 3 major FTAs negotiated in 2 years, something that labor has not come close to.

Perhaps you should STFU unless you have more than innuendo and gossip to contribute.

Shadow Minister,

Why don't you take a look at the following link.
It explains who negotiated the trade deals and
signed them and who merely "witnessed" them:

http://www.dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/in-force/chafta/news/Pages/signature-of-the-china-australia-free-trade-agreement

cont'd ...

Shadow Minister,

Please don't continue with Coalition fiction.

Labor did not lose the election because its
policy agenda in government was flawed -
enduring reforms in aged care, education, health,
and the national disability insurance scheme are
proof of this. And time has proven correct - its
policies on pricing carbon, fairer mining taxes,
building the NBN, and supporting SSM.

Nor did Labor lose because of its handling of the
economy or management of the budget and debt levels.
Labor lost because of the poor behaviour of its MPs.
Disunity in politics is death and this was a government
that was racked by debilitating internal division.

Which was a factor in why Tony Abbott was later replaced
by Turnbull. Politics is a blood sport. And rising voter
disaffection with the major parties in support for
independents and minor parties continues to play a role
as does the unpopularity of certain party leaders.
Shorten's demise comes to mind alongside Abbott's.

Anyway, all this is past history. What the future holds
is yet to be seen. Tony Abbott is now out of the picture.
What he does in the UK - will hopefully not disadvantage our
country.

Foxy,

I am surprised by the level of your self-delusion. Bad policies and bad faith are the prime reasons why Labor lost in 2013 and 2019 in spite of the disunity of the coalition in 2019.

I am grateful that Juliar was so bad as it laid the foundations for 3 to 4 terms of non Labor governments.

That TA was the driving force behind the trade agreements is pretty much accepted by those in the know and denied only by the clueless.

Juliar left only a skid mark in history.

Shadow Minister,

I would love to agree with you but then we would
both be wrong!

I'm done talking to you.

Posted by Foxy

Dear Josephus, Talking about opinions. The following link explains:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201609/the-psychology-behind-donald-trumps-unwavering-support

Answer-

Well- at first glance this article is interesting but not for it's research. Over the articles I've read from Psychology Today I've found them to be very biased towards the left and usually not particularly scientific. Just my opinion I know.

Often academic bias and it's reason's can be hard to isolate- maybe I'm just unwilling to read hundreds of pages of text.

I tried researching this author for his background and found a few articles...

This one could be considered grudgingly right wing...
http://www.huffpost.com/entry/spreading-pseudoscience-5-reasons-liberals_b_6694374

Sometimes the family name, the university, etc gives clues as to an authors motivation for their views...

http://bobbyazarian.com/bio/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mason_University
http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=azarian
http://www.names.org/n/azarian/about

B.S. in biology and a long-time interest in theoretical physics and artificial intelligence. I write about current events, politics, and culture from a scientific perspective, but my passion for science has always been largely motivated by philosophical and spiritual questions, such as how and why we find ourselves in a universe that inevitably and effortlessly generates life and conscious beings with seemingly infinite technological and intellectual potential.

Overall Bobby Azarian, PhD, Cognitive Neuroscientist appears to have at least a slight "Social" bias but more definitely "Locke Libertarian". However Azarian has been published in both Left and Right sources.
http://missliberty.com/john-locke-his-libertarian-philosophy-in-5-short-films/
Philosopher John Locke was born on August 29, 1632. He has been called the “Father of Classical Liberalism” and is arguably the most influential libertarian thinker in history. His ideas — including the concept of “life, liberty, and property” — inspired the American Revolution as well as the modern concept of “social tolerance.”

It seems more and more psychologists are making forays into political commentary.

Who better than a psychologist to make a foray into
political commentary?

The opinions of any of us are really of no value
if we don't know anything about the subject.
A psychologist definitely has an advantage especially
when it comes to the erratic behaviour of the
current US President.

Foxy said- The opinions of any of us are really of no value
if we don't know anything about the subject.
A psychologist definitely has an advantage especially
when it comes to the erratic behaviour of the
current US President.

Answer-

I think they have "some" value. As Chris Lewis says the argument rather than the qualifications. But Kuhn said that you have to be a "practitioner".

Michel Foucault proposed a concept of critique based on Kant's distinction between "private" and "public" uses of reason. This distinction, as suggested, has two dimensions:

Private reason is the reason that is used when an individual is "a cog in a machine" or when one "has a role to play in society and jobs to do: to be a soldier, to have taxes to pay, to be in charge of a parish, to be a civil servant".
Public reason is the reason used "when one is reasoning as a reasonable being (and not as a cog in a machine), when one is reasoning as a member of reasonable humanity". In these circumstances, "the use of reason must be free and public."

On the Fourfold Root, Schopenhauer identifies four a priori roots or aspects of PSR, namely: (1) a moral principle, (2) a physical principle, (3) a mathematical principle, and (4) a logical principle. These four, taken together, pretty much define the analytic approach to PSR.

Though not definitive- My understanding is under some views the streams aren't supposed to cross. ie Psychologists shouldn't be judging Politics- Moral vs Physical streams

References...

http://www.metaphysicalsociety.org/2014/Papers/van_der_Luft.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason#The_critique_of_reason

In the field of psychology the Dunning-Kruger effect
is a cognitive bias in which people with low ability
at a task overestimate their ability. It relates to
the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes
from the inability of people to recognize their lack
of ability.

The Dunning-Kruger effect explains that the problem
isn't just that they are misinformed. It's that they
are completely unaware that they are misinformed.

This creates a double burden.

Hence this reference by Bobby Azarian who's a cognitive
neuroscientist in his article in "Psychology Today" on
Trump and his supporters.

I see that Labor is crashing to new lows in the polls.

As I said, a 4th term coalition government is likely.