Archbishops from three Christian denominations in Australia, Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox, have written to PM Scott Morison requesting the government seek an alternative to the Covid-19 vaccine that will possible be produced in Australia by the pharmaceutical company AstraZeneca. The grounds for objection by the three wise men are; “Whether this vaccine is successful or not, it is important that the government does not create an ethical dilemma for people.” So said one of the wise Anthony Fisher the Catholic Archbishop of Sydney.

What is this "ethical dilemma" which could consign millions of the faithful to Hell? If the virus doesn't get them first. Currently there are 167 possible vaccines being researched world wide, a small number use cell tissue from an unborn fetus as part of their development, this being the grounds for objection from the church hierarchy. Whiles these Archbishops may be safe in their palaces, million, even billions, could perish because of the lack of a vaccine.

Thankfully these three wise men did not object, as far as I know, to the development of a vaccine that defeated the rubella pandemic among children in the 1950's, it was developed from fetus tissue. That same type of vaccine is widely used today to combat measles, mumps, and rubella. Do the wise men see flu vaccine as unethical because it is produced from chicken eggs?

Note; Only 5 of the 167 possible Covid-19 vaccines being developed use the cells from unborn fetuses.

If a vaccine was available, regardless of how it was developed, would you take it?

If a vaccine was available, regardless of how it was developed, would you take it?
Paul1405,
Isn't it th responsibility factor towards others that is at stake here ? Would those three mutts open the doors to their churches for harbouring sick people if needed ? Would they accept responsibility for people dying not with COVID-19 but from it ?

"What is this "ethical dilemma" which could consign millions of the faithful to Hell?"

That the vaccine is being developed using stem cells from aborted babies.

"Only 5 of the 167 possible Covid-19 vaccines being developed use the cells from unborn fetuses."

That's hardly the point. The vaccine the government is proposing to impose on all Australians IS developed using stem cells from aborted babies.

Just to be clear since so many here are apt, indeed anxious, to get the wrong end of the stick, I personally couldn't give two hoots that the drug is developed from aborted fetuses. But I do care that others be permitted to hold a different view and that those others not be compelled to compromise their principals just because the governments are desperately trying to find a way out of the lockdown hole they've dug for themselves.

Would I take it? Eventually...after its shown to be safe - which is not the same as the government/company saying its safe. When the company developing it says it wants immunity from prosecution if things go wrong, its probably a good idea to be prudent (“This is a unique situation where we as a company simply cannot take the risk if in … four years the vaccine is showing side-effects")

So now aborted human foetuses are on a par with chicken eggs! What wonderful standards these Christian-hating bogans have.

would not expect anyone's heart is so callous that they endorse killing babies to have any moral conscience. Instead they vent their hatred of those with faith while virtue signalling their self righteousness.

..aborted human foetuses are on a par with chicken eggs!
ttbn,
So far as nature goes, yes !
And, since the majority of people have lost their humanity factor, there now is no other way of looking at it !
I just wished it wasn't like that. We have to thank the Left for this atrocious situation, the 'gay' movement & women libbers in particular

I think it is more important to avoid a serious
risk not only for one's own children and grand-children
but also and perhaps more specifically for the health
conditions of the population as a whole. So yes, I would
take the vaccine when it becomes available for the
protection of us all.

Realistically, how many of us even question where the
current vaccines that we take come from? Most of us
take them simply as safety and preventative measures.

Also, until the churches take a more pro-active position
against child sexual abuse within their own ranks -
they are in no position to
lecture anybody on ethical or moral standards regarding
children.
children.

Paul,

Aside from the fact that the pedogreens are riddled with Anti Vaxxers I guess that the whole concept of ethics flies above your head.

I also know your youthful experience with the Catholic Church has left you more than a little anal, but lying about what the Archbishop was saying was also highly unethical.

The AB was not calling on Morrison to exclude this particular vaccine from Aus, rather to purchase some doses of other vaccines for the handful of people whose religious beliefs preclude the standard vaccine

I wonder how many of us realize that some of the
vaccines currently used to prevent diseases such as -
rubella, measles, rabies, polio, chickenpox or
smallpox, hepatitis, are produced using tissues from
human abortions.

http://www.bioethics.georgetown.edu/2017/01/is-it-true-that-there-are-vaccines-produced-using-aborted-fetuses/

Yeah Foxy a lot of Germans closed their eyes to nazis awhile back. Nothing has changed.

First, I think that some crucial information is missing:

1. Are the foetal cell-lines still present in the vaccine when injected, or are they only a part of the process?

2. How old was the fetus when aborted?

3. Was the fetus killed for the purpose of vaccines, or was s/he killed anyway and science only obtained the remains?

4. If the answer to questions 3 and 4 is unsatisfactory, can a new tissue be used from a frozen IVF product that is not intended to be used anyway (perhaps because the mother died or is no longer capable of pregnancy, or where genetic issues make the cells unable to develop fully into a living human)?

I would find it hypocritical if someone who routinely eats the flesh of grown-up, fully-developed and purposefully killed animals, avoids a vaccine that historically made use of (but does not even include) a tissue from just one fetus that was much less evolved when killed than the animals they eat.

At the end of the day, everyone should follow their own conscience, religion and vows.

Those who cannot use this particular vaccine should be encouraged to import different vaccines.

Since it takes a minimum of 5 years, & more like 10 years to prove a vaccine is actually safe, & not worse than the disease it is designed to stop, there is no way I will be touching the stuff, & I believe only an idiot would touch the stuff in the first couple of years of it's introduction. Hell I wouldn't buy even a new car model of a car, until it has been around for a couple of years, & I don't stick new cars into my veins. They are merely a financial risk.

I have received vaccinations in the past which had been developed using cells from aborted foetuses. In some cases it was because there was no alternative; in other cases it was because there had been no publicity about the origins of cell lines. In fact I remember when I found out that aborted foeteses had been used to develop vaccines and I attempted to warn another person about it and they could not believe it was possible. That was a few years ago now.

The Vatican has said that receiving a vaccine to prevent possible serious harm is accepitable behaviour irrespective of the origins of the cell line, if there is no morally acceptable alternative. When there is a choice to use a vaccine, then catholics are advised to choose the vaccine that does not derive from aborted foetal tissue.

Right from the start of the talk about a vaccine for COVID, church representatives have been exhorting manufacturers not to use morally doubtful sources.

I am pleased to hear that most research is being done on non-foetal material, and I will be waiting for one of those vaccines to become available, before I get my shot.

Thanks to church leaders for bringing this to the public's attention. People from many faiths have a deep respect for human life and will be glad to hear that there may be alternatve vaccines available, later if not sooner

Paul1405: a small number use cell tissue from an unborn fetus as part of their development,

OK, the release said "unborn Fetus." Immediately everybody has jumped on the "Aborted Fetus" Bandwagon. How do we know that the Fetus's are Aborted. There are many ways of getting unborn Fetus Cells. Discarded embryo from failed pregnancies or the unwanted embryo once the woman has fallen pregnant.

To my mind the Churches, of any Religion, should keep their bl00dy nose out of State affairs. That was the whole idea in the Separation of Religion & State, wasn't it.

runner, as discussed previously, I am not in favour of "abortion on demand" although you and I have different views on how best to deal with women seeking such abortions, and abortions in general.

Indy, me thinks we have some agreement here, do I need to answer your rhetorical question. Not being a smart arse, a Bishops house is called a palace, for obvious reasons. Unfortunately there would be no room at the inn for the diseased stricken folk. During the Great Plague, the Pope surrounded himself with fire, it must have felt like hell, seemingly it was most effective, he didn't catch the plague.

mhaze, you ask what is the "ethical dilemma", you would have to ask the Bishops that one. I take it to be, no abortions of any kind, therefore no fetus to develop a vaccine with, end of story. Cut 5 off 167 and go with the other 162, subject to other possible objections.

ttbn, I'm certainly not a Christian hating anything. I dislike some of the actions of Church hierarchy, but that's been done to death over time on the Forum, so I'll leave that to next time. If the government went along with these three wise men, then objections from others to vaccines for all sorts of reasons would be in order, including objections from the chicken lovers.

the facts are clear. The cell line is called HEK-293; it was derived from the kidney of a foetus that was aborted in 1972. HEK is an acronym for Human Embryonic Kidney

I'll go along with that Foxy.

SM, I only got as far as pedogreen, ONE SICK DUDE We HAVE HERE, can't comment on any topic unless you make reference to paedophilia. I'm wondering about you fella. GY once told me, sometime back, he had zero tolerance for such inferences It must be a long way to zero, but then SM you are on the right side of the fence with your dozens of innuendos, knowing I'm a Green.

Yuyutsu, as I understand it, the foetal cells are used in the development stage and not in the final production.

"Was the fetus killed for the purpose of vaccines" from what I read its not likely. Oddly I read the cells are from the 1970's or 80's.

"Those who cannot use this particular vaccine should be encouraged to import different vaccines." its not certain that even one vaccine will be developed.

Hasbeen your choice, but if you are over 70 why be so cautious.

JayB very good point.

Paul these damn fool politicians, & particularly their chief medical officers have got themselves into this lock down catastrophe, & can't get themselves out of it, unless they can claim the wonder vaccine allows them to drop it.

There is no other reason to rush an untried vaccine into production & distribution. Hell even the originators/manufacturers won't release the stuff, unless indemnified against any health disasters it causes down the track.

If the originators have so little faith in the safety of the stuff, do you really want to feed it to your grand kids?

Posted by Jayb,
To my mind the Churches, of any Religion, should keep their bl00dy nose out of State affairs. That was the whole idea in the Separation of Religion & State, wasn't it.
Jayb,
This is not a State affair as you falsely imagine, it is a personal conscience affair and individuals want to know if the vaccine has been ethically produced that is being injected into their bodies. You may not feel guilty of taking a human life, whereas many people do.

Storm in a teacup, if the vaccine is successful then 99.99% of all religions will take it; just as women of all faiths embraced the Pill.

Dear Paul,

«Yuyutsu, as I understand it, the foetal cells are used in the development stage and not in the final production.»

Thank you for the information: in this case I have no personal problem with the vaccine.

It is however, quite a failure of government which did not investigate the ethical aspects before making such deals, then coming out openly with the full information when presenting the chosen vaccine(s).

«"Was the fetus killed for the purpose of vaccines" from what I read its not likely. Oddly I read the cells are from the 1970's or 80's.»

Good, although further investigation is needed, but I wonder, if this was done in the 1970's/1980's, then why can't it be done again, here in Australia, with new kidney embryonic cells sourced from miscarriage instead?

«"Those who cannot use this particular vaccine should be encouraged to import different vaccines." its not certain that even one vaccine will be developed.»

I am optimistic about ending up with many vaccines. But even this one Oxford vaccine, suppose it works but it takes a few years to start again with new kidney embryonic cells that are more ethical, then let those who choose to wait, wait. Naturally, those who choose to not yet be vaccinated will remain subject to social-distancing restrictions while the others will be free again.

---

A relevant, perhaps challenging, quote for Christians:

"I will give you thanks for you answered me, you have become my salvation.
The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,
the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes.
The Lord has done it this very day, let us rejoice today and be glad."

[Psalms 118:21-24]

Paul,

From someone that regular lies and trolls people and submitted a post that accused someone of making "queer" accusation, that is more than little hypocritical especially coming from a party riddled with Anti vaxxers.

In fact your first post in this thread was riddled with lies. The Catholic AB was not against Vaccinations, nor was he calling for banning of this particular vaccine but simply pointing out that it is problematic for a small portion of the population and that there are many other vaccines that are not.

Australia is developing a vaccine that does not contain human fetal tissue. Anyone with a conscience about fetal tissue being injected can choose the Australian vaccine.

"To my mind the Churches, of any Religion, should keep their bl00dy nose out of State affairs."

What? A certain section of society should have no say, no opinions in society?

These Bishops are doing what they trained to do; what their doctrine requires them to do. What they believe in. It is their bloody job. There would be no point having faith, going to a seminary, taking on work with little monetary reward just to sit back and say nothing as the secular world goes down the gurgler. Wouldn't it be great if all professionals with particular skills and knowledge 'kept their noses' out of the law, science, economy, medical matters and so on!

As for separation of church and state - bullshite! Western society is based on Christian principles: that's why it is so successful. Decisions are still made daily based on Christian principles. Anyone who thinks that Christian politicians (and voters) don't make decisions based on their religious beliefs is dingbats.

This thread is a barely disguised attack on Christianity by a person known for his anti-Christian sentiments. It has little to do with vaccination against the virus from China. There might never be a vaccine. Some people are not content to deal with current problems and controversy; they have to stir up trouble about problems that might, or might not, occur in future. What a sick attitude!

SM, I make the observation, you make reference to paedophilia with every opportunity, even when the topic is unrelated to that particular subject. Either you have a very unhealthy mind, or what else could it be? The "queer" comment was in relation to text comments from the now resigned Victorian Liberal, and the response from the the Liberal Party MP in question. Get your head out of that Murdoch gutter press you are so fond of, and read the real news.

What I said was; "Archbishops from three Christian denominations in Australia, Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox, have written to PM Scott Morison requesting the government seek an alternative" AN ALTERNATIVE, again poor comprehension on your part, you interpret that as; "nor was he calling for banning of this particular vaccine. Although one could say seeking an alternative is effectively a banning

Paul,

Once again you are a huge hypocrite. Originally you were perfectly happy to point the finger of paedophilia at a huge bunch of people only developing a sensitivity when senior members of the greens turned out to be kiddie fiddlers.

If I wanted to link the greens to paedophillia I would call them the Paedogreens. The term pedogreens is nonsense word whose sole purpose is wind you up when you are being particularly obnoxious.

Secondly, I am perfectly aware of what the Bishops have asked for, but with a clearly better grasp of English, I am in a position to correct you.

Having an "ALTERNATIVE" vaccine available does not exclude having the first one available. Clearly one would only take one, but at no point did any of them suggest not using any vaccine or display any aspects of being anti vaxxers.

ttbn: "To my mind the Churches, of any Religion, should keep their bl00dy nose out of State affairs."

What? A certain section of society should have no say, no opinions in society?

As individuals they are allowed & should have a say. There is no argument on that. But, If they are speaking on behalf of the Churches, as they are in this case. Then it's a definite, NO.

Jayb,

So, you are saying that, unlike say a charity, a sporting group, a farmers' organisation, a cultural group, or any of the many groups engaged in by citizens, churches cannot lobby government?

ttbn: churches cannot lobby government?

Well, that'd be a good start.

It's a bit like the 10 Commandments, ay. Thou shalt not. then the Lawyers got involved & corrupted them. Ay!

So, Therefore, No, because a little too much money in Brown Paper Bags gets snuck into the mix. Ay! ;-).Know what I mean, know what I mean.

I don't trust Bill Gates depopulation vaccines.

We're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't.

AC,

So ...... vaccines which save lives are part of some depopulation conspiracy ? How's that work ?

Just in case your runs out, my local supermarket still has plenty of tin-foil :)

Joe

Like the Christian Bishops, a Muslim cleric also believes that his occupation and religion do not restrain him from the democratic right to make political comments and to appeal to governments.

Imam Sufygan Khalifa has urged Muslims and others to resist the “fascism” occurring “in our country” ….. “especially that dictator Andrews” for what is occurring in Victoria.

Khalifa has called on Muslims to “go hand in hand” with Christians, Jews, Hindus and “anyone else “even if they don’t believe in God”, to “save our country” from dictatorship.

If we 'believed the science' health care workers would be taking hydroxychloroquine and we would never have had the idiotic lockdowns and State Border closures. The flu shots are suss at best and not worth taking. I doubt this so called 'vaccine' will do much but fill the pockets of the usual suspects. Oh yeah, like the gw fruitcakes the science is settled. The Western world (except Sweden) have shown how quickly they give in the tyranny. For the first time in history I will be joining with the Byron Bay hippies and refusing the vaccine.

Churchs should keep their noses out of State affairs and as the welfare of the people is a State matter then the Churchs should cease all welfare work and close their hospitals as well.

'Churchs should keep their noses out of State affairs and as the welfare of the people is a State matter then the Churchs should cease all welfare work and close their hospitals as well.'

the fruit of Is Mise bigotry is clear to see in US democrat States. No one wants to live in such godless hell holes created by god denying bigots.

runer,

Ever heard of satire?

apologies Is mise just sick of godless bigots ranting their irrational bile. I did miss your valid point.

runner, what about the evidence that Christians are spreading the virus through their schools and churches, particularly in NSW.

Paul,

What evidence?

References?

Oh yes Issy!

When it comes to Covid-19 there is a disproportionate number of cases in private schools, particularly Christian, churches, not synagogues, mosques or temples but churches, and church run aged care facilities. Remember St Basil's. Data is contained in NSW and Victorian government Covid-19 web sites. There is enough evidence there for conspiracy theorists to have a field day! Obviously payback for wrongfully locking up their archbishop. Its all being financed by the Vatican!

Ever heard of satire? I thought you were being truthful.

And don't forget the infections from BLM rallies attended by Labor and pedogreens.

There goes that sick dude Shonky Minister making reference to paedophiles again, he can't help himself. Gee the way this strange bloke posts you would think we are in the middle of a paedophilia pandemic.

Issy more proof! "South Korea was basking in international praise for containing the coronavirus pandemic. But now it stands on the brink of a second serious outbreak, and much of the blame is again being directed at the country’s evangelical churches."

"Authorities say a recent surge in cases traced to Sarang Jeil (Presbyterian Church), an ultra-conservative church in Seoul, have contributed to an outbreak that is affecting major cities across the country. Some members of its congregation also attended a large anti-government rally in the capital last weekend that officials believe could have helped the virus spread."

Paul,

I was talking about the greens, you seem to get them confused frequently. I don't blame you. Your cognitive abilities faded years ago.

A bit of news,

What is the 'Saint Michael's Christian Brothers (secret) Fight Club'linked to a double shooting in Lewisham in Sydney's inner west on Friday afternoon? What is the connection with the Catholic Church if there is one.

don't worry Paul as all murders, accidents and other deaths are caused by covid. Police don't have time to investigate any true crime as they are to busy handcuffing pregnant women who post on facebook their support of freedom. Take a pill.

Paul,

You ought to know as the greens and the Catholic church are very similar.

runner, the Christian churches in South Korea are spreading the virus. Are you a member of the Shincheonji Church of Jesus.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51701039

dear oh dear. Paul posting a clip from 2 March in South Korea. No word from Taiwan Paul where no lockdowns or masks and 7 deaths. You are totally pathetic trying to divert attention from your incompetent dictator Chairman in Victoria who is Australia's number one failure. And from someone who boasted about marching alongside the marxist/antifa murderers you have the gall to criticise church gatherings. You do prove that the left are one sick mob.

"South Korea has arrested the leader of a religious sect (Shincheonji Church of Jesus) linked to the country's largest coronavirus outbreak."..."Lee Man-hee, 88, heads the Shincheonji Church of Jesus. More than 5,000 of its members became infected, making up 36% of all Covid-19 cases in the country."

runner are you a personal friend of Father Man-hee? Is he in the slammer?