Criticism of multiculturalism appears to be in fashion
lately. Looking at how the word is used, it appears
that multiculturalism means different things to different
people.

To some it's simply a demographic description of a
diverse population.

To others it can be used as an ideal to be aspired to
about how a diverse society should be organised to be a
just one.

To others its a collection of ghettoised individual cultural
elements - that do not enrich by diversity but rather
pollute the society.

In Australia our society has been described as a successful
multicultural society. I thought it might be interesting
to see what posters on this forum feel about this description
in 2020?

Here's what two of our former Prime Ministers had to say
on the subject:

Julia Gillard:

"Multiculturalism is not only just the ability to maintain
our diverse backgrounds and cultures. It is the meeting
place of rights and responsibilities where the right to
maintain one's customs, language and religion is balanced
by an equal responsibility to learn English, find work,
respect our culture and heritage, and accept women as full
equals".

Tony Abbott agreed and added:

"Newcomers to this country are not expected to surrender
their heritage but they are expected to surrender their
hatred".

Your thoughts please.

"Multiculturalism" is simply the recognition that culture is not the state's business and individuals ought to be free to live in their own way (so long as they do not hurt others that live differently).

Thank You Yuyutsu.

so long as they do not hurt others that live differently
Yuyutsu,
Yes, that's how it should be even in mono culture. But, when you have a situation where so-called refugees demand from those who take them in to conform to the culture or rather baggage they bring with them then things invariably take a sharp turn.

It is important that we recognize the aim of having
a cohesive society centred around defined cultural
ideals rather than a collection of ghettoised individual
cultural elements.

A society that would assume that
culture is enriched by diversity rather than polluted
by it, and that the diverse cultural elements exist within
a cultural envelope that creates its own common ground.
Where fairness, equality, non-discrimination, and
justice are viewed as an all important foundation.

Dear Foxy,

«It is important that we recognize the aim of having
a cohesive society centred around defined cultural
ideals rather than a collection of ghettoised individual
cultural elements.»

Are these your own thoughts or is this a quote from somewhere?

I am asking because I totally disagree.

It is human to fear, then seek shelter and the illusion of safety in numbers. Human - but not wise. The only real and reliable shelter is in the One, in God, not in the many!

Multiculturalism was set up for three reasons:

1. Provide cheap labour to business.

2. Provide the numbers for a people-driven economy.

3. Bring in foreigners with cash to throw around.

What hasn't been taken into account is that a lot of migrants are racists and introduce the practice of nepotism into the workplaces to ensure that members of their family or their own culture have an advantage over others. I have actually witnessed this in places I have worked. Especially with Indian and Middle Eastern peoples who have traditional caste systems structured around family and affiliation.

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad. 


Hi Foxy, not perfect but post war mass immigration, and consequently the introduction of multiculturalism has been a success for Australia. Of course there are those who don't fit in, and there are those ever at the ready to point that fact out. Just as not every baby born in Australia will turn out to be a perfect citizen, not every migrant or the off spring of migrants will be a roaring success in the future. Its my belief that looking back at those I have met over the years, from all parts of the world, that the vast majority are decent people who are happy to maintain their heritage whilst embracing an egalitarian society that gives them, and more importantly their children, the opportunities that never existed in their homelands.

Paul1405,
Since you perpetually state your dislike of the old age pension & Welfare, how do you propose those migrants & citizens on permanent Welfare should be dealt with ? Particularly those who willingly make themselves unemployable.
It appears you're quite ok with welfare & old age pension as long as it's not paid to white people who have worked & paid taxes their whole life ?

Dear Individual,

I agree with Paul, thus I assume that your question can also be directed at myself.

In principle, welfare is good and those who choose to not be employed, of whatever colour and for whatever reason(s), should benefit from this option.

However, welfare-payments are presently taken off from some of the tax-payers against their will - that is wrong and as a result, accepting welfare payments is presently immoral.

All that needs to change in order to straighten this out is to make [personal] tax voluntary. The decline in revenue can be stopped by making all government services dependent on taxation (if applicable), so those who opt out from paying their tax, while this will be legally possible, will permanently lose all their entitlements to a safety net and state-run services, including even police/courts protection of their lives and property.

America is a multicultural society, examine what is happening in America as a cohesive community. It is dumbed down intellectually and bordering on civil war. Australia has a growing population of multicultural persons with diverse cult values who want to change the society but have not yet achieved the population level to force change on the former culture. We have allowed them to degrade our values.

In principle, welfare is good and those who choose to not be employed, of whatever colour and for whatever reason(s), should benefit from this option.
Yuyutsu,
I can't remember you telling which Planet you're from ! Generally, here on Earth, people work for a living for themselves & their taxes are then chosen to be distributed for the benefit of the needy. It doesn't really go to plan much but to work to support those who choose not to work is literally unearthly !

I remember former British Prime Minister David Cameron
and German Chancellor Angela Merkel both having said
that multiculturalism had failed. And that surprised me
because I was convinced that it was successful here in
Australia.

But then Mr Cameron went on to explain why it had failed.

"Under the doctrine of state multiculturalism we've
encouraged different cultures to live separate lives,
apart from each other and apart from the mainstream".

Mr Cameron added, "We failed to provide a vision of society
to which they want to belong. We've even tolerated these
segregated communities behaving in ways that run completely
counter to our values".

In Australia we've done things differently. Most of those
who've settled here respect Australian laws and its
traditions and they've come to understand the culture.
Of course there are some who don't and there are many
reasons for that. We've got to work harder at it.

Policy makers here have always been concerned to ensure that
ethnic enclaves were not created in the manner that they have
in Britain and Germany. In Australia migrants on the whole
take less time to feel at home than those who migrate to
European countries.

In this country we've tried to be more inclusive. We try not
to impose labels on certain communities because this
encourages people into identifying as something other than
Australian and take on past ethnic conflicts.

We realise that the more we tag people as outsiders the more
they will be forced to galvanise that as an ethnicity.

We also realise that united communities can make large
contributions to the growth of the nation. And as we've
seen our nation has grown from a cultural backwater into
the great nation that it is today.

cont'd ...

Of course there are immigrants who abuse our system
just as there are people born here who abuse our system.
The truth is that the majority of today's immigrants
bring with them an infusion of the same values that our
ancestors personified. They are people who are willing
to work hard for long hours to make a better life for
themselves and their families.

Our children do not stand to be corrupted by their values,
so much as their children stand to be corrupted by ours.
The scapegoating of today's immigrants makes a mockery of
what we stand for.

It is a national immorality when we collectively say no to
compassion.

Josephus,

America has never had a multicultural policy.

And Oh Boy! I can see by what you write that you definitely ain't no sociologist!

Foxy,

Why do you think Australia established multiculturalism?

Surely you don't think it's because everyone thinks of themselves as an anthropologist.

What are the political and economic bases for multiculturalism in Australia? (Apart from wanting to hold hands and sing Kumbaya to each other.)

Yuyutsu wrote:

"Multiculturalism" is simply the recognition that culture is not the state's business and individuals ought to be free to live in their own way (so long as they do not hurt others that live differently).

I agree with the above.

Yuyutsu also wrote:

“It is human to fear, then seek shelter and the illusion of safety in numbers. Human - but not wise. The only real and reliable shelter is in the One, in God, not in the many!”

Belief in God is a matter of personal opinion and part of a person’s culture. It is also not the state’s business. Taxpayer money should not be allotted to schools which further that opinion.

"Multiculturalism" in Oz was simply a lefty scheme to buy some ethnic votes.

It worked well for the lefties, & at destroying a previously reasonably well integrated society.

Hasbeen has it right. Multiculturalism is a lefty scheme. Sometimes the lefties get it right, and this is one of those times. Australia was a well integrated society for white Anglo-Christians. Calling people wogs, the white Australia policy and turning Jews away who were fleeing the Nazis are indications that it was neither a fair nor a generous society. The lefties have made a better Australia. Hurrah for the lefties.

Thank you, Foxy, David and Yuyutsu, for some realistic common-sense and empathy.

Even Josephus, too ;)

Can I respectfully suggest that anybody who doesn't like multiculturalism-as-democratic-right (but, of course, not multiculturalism as a pretext for apartheid), can go back to wherever their peasant ancestors came from.

Joe

Multiculturalism was set up in Australia in 1788 with the arrival of the multicultural First Fleet.

david f,

What do you see as the political and economic bases for the introduction of multiculturalism in Australia?

Australia's approach to immigration from federation
until the latter part of the 20th century in effect
excluded non-European immigration. The White Australia
policy as it was commonly described was slowly dismantled
by the Australian government after World War II.

The prevailing attitude to migrant settlement up until
this time was based on the expectation of assimilation.
That is, that migrants should shed their cultures and
languages and rapidly become indistinguisable from the
host population.

However from the mid 1960s until approx. 1973 when the
final vestiges of the White Australia policy were
removed policies started to examine the assumptions about
assimilation.

They recognized that large numbers of migrants - especially
those whose first language was not English experienced
hardships as they settled in Australia and required direct
assistance. They also recognized the importance of ethnic
organisations in helping with migrant settlement.

Expenditure on migrant assistance increased in the early 1970s
in response to those needs. By 1973 the term multiculturalism
had been introduced and migrant groups were forming state
and national associations to maintain their culture and
promote the survival of their languages and heritages
within mainstream institutions.

In 1975 at a ceremony proclaiming the Racial Discrimination
Act 1975, the Prime Minister referred to Australia as a
multicultural nation. The PM and the Leader of the Opposition,
made speeches demonstrating for the first time that
multiculturalism was becoming a major priority on both sides
of politics.

In 1978 - multiculturalism policies were
implemented. In 1979 Australian Parliament established the
Australian Institute of Multicultural Affairs.

This was a natural progression and part and parcel of the
evolvement of our nation which was supported by both sides of
politics, and which as a result has made us the nation that we
are today.

Outside Australia's Indigenous people, we are all immigrants
or descendants of immigrants - some earlier than others -
but all with an experience of immigration during the
foundation of modern Australia.

cont'd ...

Australia's immigration experience has been a broad one.
Originally it was Anglo-Celtic but after the war
immigrants came increasingly from Europe. In more recent
times, Vietnamese, Chinese, African, immigrants have grown
considerably in numbers. And all these immigrant communities
have made successful contributions to Australian life
thanks also to the policies and programs of our various
governments om both sides of politics.

As a result our country has been described as a successful
multicultural society. One in which people from all
different backgrounds have found a home. One to which
many people still want to come. We are a lucky country.
We should count our blessings.

Mr Opinion asked what I see as the political and economic bases for the introduction of multiculturalism in Australia.

One can look up the subject and find:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism_in_Australia

“According to the National Agenda for a Multicultural Australia, the Australian government is concerned with three broad policy areas: cultural identity, social justice, and economic efficiency.”

In my opinion the policy of multiculturalism added fairness to what was already a multicultural society. I see social justice and cultural identity as the main political impetus. Australia has been a multicultural society since the first fleet. ttbn is right in that, but it was also a very unfair society. Bishop Frame in his book “Church and State” mentions that, in the few years of Australian history the only clerics recognized were Church of English chaplains attached to the royal armed forces. However, the convicts had various religious and cultural identities which were suppressed. I don’t know all the backgrounds of the convicts, but I know there were Irish Catholics and Jewish Londoners among them. In present day Australia Catholics and Jews are free to express their religious attachments and even to head or have important positions in our political parties.

Two decent men, Gough Whitlam and Malcolm Fraser, from Australia’s two main parties implemented the policy.

Multiculturalism has brought tensions. Some Australians such as John Howard miss the old days of a stratified society. Some Australians such as Pauline Hanson exploit those tensions. Australia will never return to the old days, and some will continue to miss them. As far as I am concerned the Australia we live in at present is better than it ever has been.

An indication of early multiculturalism;
there were so many Irish and Scots in the Colony who did not speak English as a first language that making Gaelic a second official language was seriously considered.
http://coveredrachel.wordpress.com/2013/05/15/a-brief-history-of-gaelic-in-australia-and-new-zealand/

"THEY CAME FROM MANY LANDS
JANUARY 22, 2016 BY CHERYL TIMBURY
Amongst the peoples of the First Fleet were many nationalities. These people embarked as convicts, able seamen, cooks, marines, officers and children. They are collectively known as Non English First Fleeters. You might ask, who were they?

BLACKS – There were twelve black Africans, Americans or West Indians that sailed on the First Fleet. Eleven were convicts with cook George Nelson, off the Prince of Wales, who drowned in the harbour at Port Jackson on 16 February 1788.

CHANNEL ISLANDERS – There were two that sailed as crew.

IRISH – There were one hundred and forty one known First Fleeters having been born in Ireland or whose surnames suggest they may have been Irish or of Irish extraction. They made up nearly all of the First Fleet people.

JEWISH– There were certainly nine Jews that sailed with the Fleet. Some publications have suggested another nine Jews were board.
NORTH AMERICANS – At least fourteen North Americans are known to have sailed with the First Fleet. Laurence Lebogue from Nova Scotia, deserted before the Fleet left Portsmouth.

OTHER NATIONALISTS – Eight black convicts whose origins are uncertain were probably from America, the West Indies or Africa. Other seamen listed were from Madagascar, Germany, Norway, France, Sweden, Portugal and Holland.

SCOTTISH – It has been established that there were thirty-three Scottish First Fleeters (a number of others bore surnames of probable Scottish derivation)."
http://firstfleetfellowship.org.au/convicts/they-came-from-many-lands/

The blacks settled, married, had children and have now just about disappeared in the general population, who knows how many of you might have a black convict ancestor?

Dear David,

Thank You for your summation.

Just to add a bit more:

The government of Australia realized
that it was important to Australia to hold on
to its settlers not just get them here.

Therefore in the 1970s, the need for more English classes for
migrants, special help for school students and counseling and
translation services became an accepted fact.

The question was not whether this sort of help was needed, but
how much they would spend to provide it.

The seventies saw tremendous changes in attitudes towards
migrants. Ethnic radio (radio programmes broadcasting in many
foreign languages), bilingual education, and a new respect for
individuality, made migrants feel more like Australians and
less like outsiders.

The migrants of the seventies came mainly from Malta, Italy,
Greece, Turkey, Chile, Argentina, and Peru. Europeans from
north and central Europe were arriving in smaller numbers.

Although many migrants expected to find life easy in
Australia, some found that job opportunities they had hoped
for were not always there. Some migrants, having done well
for themselves, returned to their homelands.

Therefore
Australia had to look more carefully than before at
catering to migrants'needs.

The White Australia policy of the past became a symbol of shame
in those times. When in 1972, the South African Rugby Team came
to play against Australia, demonstrations in all the states
where they were to play showed the politicians that many people
were opposed to playing sport with a country that treated
its "coloured" residents badly.

The Australian community began to realize that if they objected
to bad treatment of "coloured" peoples elsewhere, they too had
to change their own laws and become less prejudiced. In the
last decades, Asians, South Americans, Africans, and the
peoples of the many continents of our world have made their homes
here.

Can I suggest the Jews & Arabs & Chinese show us the way to multiculturalism ?

Lets take a look at how this country has changed by
taking a few steps back in history:

While Australian television shows of the past like
"Skippy"" (about life in a national park as seen
through the adventures of a tame kangaroo) were
popular, the character of the Aussie housewife was
mocked by the clever comedy skits of over-the-fence-
natter by the Australian actress Dawn Lake.

"You tell 'em love" became the symbol of the tea-sipping-
hair-in-curlers-gossip-over-the-fence-brigade.

Later, this humour was turned to the "Ocker" male, in
the style of Graham Kennedy and the writing of Nino
Culotta and the city suburbs became the backdrop for the
new Aussie image. Then the language of the pub-crawling,
hard-working, dry-witted Aussie gained popularity.
"You drongo", or "He's a galah", became the accompaniment to
the traditional "bloody bastard".

The suburban life and well-being of Australian society became
the butt of many jokes, and the intolerance towards "new
Australians" and "coloureds" was sent up as an unjustifiable
prejudice.

It was not until the 1970s that the Ocker Aussie was
packaged for world consumption in films and comics, but once
done, the exaggerated image of "Bazza (Barry) Mackenzie" became
one which many Australians were no longer so proud of.

This critical self-consciousness became - more and more
apparent in the late 1960s, and it forced both politicians and
the public to revise not only policies but also many of their
long-held and cherished notions about themselves and the
rest of the world.

Sorry for being the odd one out but I really have absolutely no interest in being part of the immigration experience.

Misopinionated,

What, you're going back to where you came from ?

Do you reckon it will be all-uniformity back there ?

Joe

welfare is good and those who choose to not be employed, of whatever colour and for whatever reason(s), should benefit from this option.

davidf, loudmouth2, Mr Opinion & Paul1405,
Any chance of getting your opinion on the above line from Yuyutsu ?

individual,

I think Yuyutsu is just having one of those moments when reality and imagination have become fuzzy and indiscernible.

Individual,

Of course not. If someone is able-bodied, and free to work, and there is work in the neighbourhood, then they should be taken off welfare and given the address.

It used to be that way forty and fifty years ago. Currently, horticulturalists in the North can't get enough fruit-pickers: they need many thousands, otherwise fruit will just rot.

Welfare payment is surely a conditional right, only available if there is no alternative ? If there is work available, then people do it, if only to get some self-respect.

Joe

Individual,

Of course not. If someone is able-bodied, and free to work, and there is work in the neighbourhood, then they should be taken off welfare and given the address.

It used to be that way forty and fifty years ago. Currently, horticulturalists in the North can't get enough fruit-pickers: they need many thousands, otherwise fruit will just rot.

Welfare payment is surely a conditional right, only available if there is no alternative ? If there is work available, then people do it, if only to get some cself-respect.

Joe

Mr O,

Outside of Australia's Indigenous people, we are all
immigrants, or descendants of immigrants - some earlier
than others - but all with an experience of immigration
during the foundation of modern Australia.

Australia is part of the New World, the world of immigrants.
Not part of the Old World or the places they embarked from.
This is why we are suspicious of inherited titles and
privileges. Nobody can afford to be too precious about
their position or entitlements in this country because
we know that here position and entitlements are
comparatively new.

Foxy,

Whoopee!

Mr O,

I expected more from you - is a whoopee
cushion the best you can do?

Indy, I'm totally in favour of sustainable welfare. No one in their right mind supports welfare for welfare's sake. The need for a safety net for the vulnerable in society is recognised by all major political parties. Using the buzz word of today in these unprecedented times the conservatives have engaged in the biggest splash of both corporate and individual welfare this country has ever seen. Has it been well implemented, is it totally justified, well that is certainly open to question.

I have a shot at you, because of your hypocritical attitude towards others on welfare, when you are clearly a welfare recipient yourself within the meaning of the Aged Pension. Yet through some superfluous argument of denial you claim not to be in the same category as others, claiming to be a cut above, no you're not.

Is Mise,

the makeup of ethnicity of the First Fleet Is fascinating. Thanks for pointing that out.

As for multiculturalism, time will tell how well Australia fares in coming decades given that Australia was largely European until more recent times.

claiming to be a cut above
Paul1405,
Now, isn't that exactly what those who choose not to work yet demand others support them are doing ?

"Does It Work in Australia?"
- Depends who you ask.

What does that mean?
- It means that some support multiculturalism and immigration whilst others don't.

Digging deeper.

It means that those Aussies that do support immigration and multiculturalism support the rights of foreigners more than they respect the rights of their fellow Australians.

They think they know better and by supporting immigration and multiculturalism will by default decide on behalf of the Australians that disagree with them;
- And the people that disagree they don't have any choice, and their opinions are considered heresy.

Why do the supporters of multiculturalism and immigration support the rights of foreigners more than they respect the rights of their fellow Australians?

Because those people who support multiculturalism and immigration probably themselves in some way identify as being an immigrant from another country rather than actually identifying as being Australian.

- And in turn they think that being Australian itself equates to being an immigrant;
- that we were never anything other than a ragtag bunch of random mixed foreigners than never had an identity of our own.

They don't think they are doing anything wrong, when maybe they never ever really fully became Aussies in the first place.

The idea of non-patriotic multi-ethnic countries would only potentially ever be promoted by a small few who's power and plans extended across national borders.
- People who plan to make and implement the rules for citizens of other nations.

Otherwise how would it ever come to be?

AC,

You may have to explain what you mean, that multiculturalism:

" ...... means that those Aussies that do support immigration and multiculturalism support the rights of foreigners more than they respect the rights of their fellow Australians."

What - Greeks, Maltese, Lithuanians, Chinese, Filipinas, etc. have had more rights than local-born Australians ? Perhaps if this were remotely true, there might have been fewer migrants working in our factories, building Australia, while the realities were that the local-born were more likely to move on up into university and professional careers, and then on the public tit for life.

Funny, when I was working in factories in the sixties and seventies, local-born Australians were distinctly in the minority, except in boss jobs.

Thankfully, those migrants were smart enough to make sure that their kids DIDN'T follow them into the factories, but did better than local-born kids at school, through sheer hard bloody work - and then went on to trades and higher studies.

Multiculturalism has built Australia.

Joe

Multiculturalism has built Australia.
Loudmouth2,
It's the selective Immigration that built this Nation, it's the willy nilly Multiculturalism that is hell-bent on wrecking that.

Dear Joe,

You're right about the contribution of migrants to
this country. If we just take a look at the migrants
arriving in Australia after World War II. They were
expected by the Australian Government to settle
permanently and to assimilate. This explicit policy
was highlighted in 1947 by the Assimilation Branch
of the Australian Department of Immigration.

Assimilation meant blending into Australian
monoculture. "with everyone living in the same way -
and sharing the same aspirations".

This was the government policy at the time. They also had
two year contracts that they had to fulfill. Which meant
they had to do as the government told them. They often were
separated from their families and were sent to work
wherever they were needed.

These two year contracts were the migrants first contribution
to Australia. They helped to solve an acute labour shortage in
Australia, especially in outlying areas.

Along with other European migrants they relieved the shortages
of domestic staff in hospitals, increased the output of
building material, helped to build Australian houses, saved
fruit and sugar crops, maintained railways, built roads, worked
in saw mills, brick factories, cement works, on sewerage
projects, water conservation, salt and brown coal mining,
clearing land, quarring, and much, much more.

Also lets not forget for those that remember the past through
rose-coloured glasses - that Australia began as a white
settlement in a land inhabited by Indigenous people. The
clash between them has left-long lasting consequences.
But that's not all - other conflicts developed along ethnic
and religious lines.

The settlers imported into Australia the conflict between
the Protestant English and the Catholic Irish. These old
prejudices and hatreds did not subside but flourished in
Australia until the early post WWII years - when they
finally began to wane.

A conflict also developed between white and Chinese miners
in the gold fields of Victoria and elsewhere during 1850s.
And there's more - but I won't go into the entire histories.
Suffice to say - Criticism of multiculturalism appears
to be in fashion lately. But it is not based on reality or
our history.

The only societies that work long term are multinational with similar values; societies with multi cult values end up with conflict at what is the acceptable values. That is where every western nation is currently in conflict.

Dear Josephus,

I think our country has done rather well.

We have evolved over the many decades despite the
initial hiccups we've encountered along the way.
International research has shown that some measure
of assimilation is inevitable for any ethnic communities.

Even for air tight and isolated colonies, such as the
Amish or Hasidic Jews, cannot totally escape a slight
touch of assimilation.

Furthermore assimilation is a two-way process. As
immigrants absorb the culture of their host country, they
are also giving off and surrendering some of their imported
heritage.

As a result an Italian, Greek, Lithuanian, Briton, American,
Dutch, Danish, African, Chinese, Arab, living in Australia
for a long time is likely to gradually create a new identity
though they may not be aware of it.

What the former immigrant still believes to be their -Italian,
Greek, Lithuanian, British, American, Dutch, Danish, African,
Chinese, or Arab identity may well be regarded as totally
Australian by the contemporary residents in the country of
their ancestors.

Things do change. The only constant in life is change.
And our nation is a happier land than most.
For which we should feel blessed and happy.

Mr. Opinion,

Just got back home, and couldn't bear for you to be the "odd one out". Multiculturalism is the very worst thing foisted on us by politicians and big business without our permission. There is no point in arguing about it, though, as the damage has been done and it is irreparable. It is one of the reasons why Australia is rooted.

It will be interesting to see how Beijing deals with it when our dick politicians are receiving their orders from there.

Actually multiculturalism wasn't foisted onto anybody.
It was a natural evolution of this nation's population
growth and immigration programs over the many decades
starting with the First Fleet and pursued by Australian
governments.

However there are many average Australians who we can see
from some of the posts that perhaps apart from food, seem
to know very little about non-British migrants or their
cultures, and they are ignorant and stuck in a time-warp.

The facts tell a different story. An attempt to preserve
migrant cultures in Australia was initiated decades ago
30 May 1978 when the Galbally Report was tabled in the
House of Representatives.

The document recommended "inter alia" that our society
develops multiculturalism through the broad concept of
community education. That it would gain much which had been
lost to other nations.

This recommendation was based on the observation that -
"already our nation has been enriched by the artistic,
intellectual, and other attributes of migrant cultures
(Galbally 1978 9 8) , schools, ethnic affairs commissions and
other community bodies often buoyed by special purpose
government funding, have since endeavoured to implement
multicultural programs and greater ethnic awareness
throughout Australia.

This has helped many of us understand each other and come
together as a nation.

Of course there are always those that will reject what
doesn't suit their ideologies. Luckily they are a small
minority - who will eventually end up on the ash heap
of history.

As a wise person once stated:

"You can be deterred from your pathway in life by the
constant hatred or you can put up a shield and
fulfill your destiny".

ttbn,

I also don't think multiculturalism is not without its problems.

I am not one of those la la land people on here that crap on as if there are no problems.

But, what evidence do you have that Australians never supported arrivals of different people.

Are you saying that politicians and business do what they like?

Surely, the population can accept, at times, the need for more migrants.

That Australia is multicultural is self-evidently true.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. But it requires one thing - that one of those cultures is dominant and clearly THE national culture that all others revolve around and exist in deference toward.

Multiculturalism is the enemy of that requirement. It is a government inspired and run policy which seeks to elevate the 'other' cultures up to the same societal levels as the dominant culture. Its a policy that tells the non-dominant cultures that they are the equal of the main culture by, partially, denigrating the dominant culture.

A nation without a single overriding cultural base will not 'live long and prosper'.
Superficially, multiculturalism has not been a major problem for Australia since its introduction in the early 1980's (the policy started in the 70's but the practice took longer to get going.) The reason it's problems haven't been apparent is that the relative prosperity the nation has enjoyed in those years has been able to paper-over the inherent problems.

NOW...as the nation enters a decade or three of economic hardship, things will change. The various tribes will now be fighting over the crumbs rather than all supping at the feast. And that will lead to inter-cultural conflict and fracturing of superficial harmony.

Lots of WuFlu inspired chocks are coming home to roost.

There is a predominant culture just as there is a
predominant language in this country. And the
political and cultural institutions that govern
our nation are absolutely critical to that attitude
of harmony and tolerance.

Within an institutional framework that preserves tolerance
and protects order we can celebrate and enjoy diversity in
food, in music, in religion, in language and culture.

But we would not do that without the framework which
guarantees the freedom to enjoy diversity.

Therefore it is important to make clear (it's not an option).
That to be an Australian, one pledges loyalty first to
Australia. One pledges to share certain beliefs -
democratic beliefs - to respect the rights and liberties of
others, and to respect the rule of law.

There is a lot of sense in this pledge. Unless we have a
consensus of support about how we will form our legislatures
and an agreement to abide by its laws, none of us will be
able to enjoy our rights and liberties without being
threatened by others. We have a compact to live under a
democratic legislature and obey the laws it makes. In
doing this the rights and liberties of all are protected.

These are Australian values. We are clear on that. They are
not optional. And we expect all who call themselves
Australians to subscribe to them. Loyalty, democracy,
tolerance, the rule of law, values worth promoting, values
worth defending. The values of Australia and its citizens.

Of course, there may be problems with some aspects of multiculturalism, language difficulties, etc. Nothing's perfect. Unless the curmudgeons want a 'perfection' test imposed on any would-be immigrants and refugees ?

But I think that Australia and Australians are big enough, tough enough, to cope with any imperfections ?

Perhaps Ttbn could outline some of the constant problems which MC throws up instead of empty xenophobic blather ?

Joe

I think our country has done rather well.
Foxy,
Thus far Australia's Multiculturalism is only taking its first steps. Once it's up & running & the Nation's luck runs out it'll be a different story !
The really sad part is that so many can't & won't see past their present comfort zone.
Presently, the numbers of non-contributing citizens in Australia are still low enough for the rest to support them simply to keep the peace. COVID-19 is giving us a few tit-bits of the taste that is around the corner !

Dear David,

«Belief in God is a matter of personal opinion and part of a person’s culture.»

Let us look at it in context - this was in reply to me answering to Foxy as she was advocating for social cohesiveness: "The only real and reliable shelter is in the One, in God, not in the many!".

While "Belief in God" is not well-defined, from the context I presume (and please correct me if I am wrong) that what you mean by it is having the cultural-based opinion that God is an existing deity.

I do not share this simplistic opinion.
Taking shelter in God is not a matter of opinion, but of actual faith.
Many who believe in God on the level of opinion, even more so when their belief is only due to culture, in reality fail to seek shelter in Him/Her/It.
I can also see the possibility for someone to take shelter in God without any belief that He/She/It exists.

«It is also not the state’s business. Taxpayer money should not be allotted to schools which further that opinion.»

Here I fully agree.
That is because I believe that the state should not be involved in education, in any shape of form.

But should the state still be paying to public schools for the teaching of English, mathematics, science, history, geography, etc., then to that extent it should do the same to religious schools. I agree that religious schools should not receive a cent for the time devoted to religious or other studies for which the state is not paying public schools.

Foxy,

I think the loonies here may have some trouble trying to persuade us that Chinese, Uighurs, Hazara, Africans, Polynesians, Latin Americans, all manner of Europeans, Arabs, Vietnamese, Indians, Pakistanis, etc., etc., are all going to secretly come together and plot to overthrow the 'rightful' Anglo control of Australia.

Still, it's fun to watch them try :)

Regards to your large husband,

Joe

Individual,

Of course there are immigrants who abuse our systems,
just as there are people born here who abuse our
systems.

But the truth is that the majority of today's immigrants
bring with them an infusion as I've stated previously,
of the same values that our ancestors personified.
The values Australia is so sorely lacking.

They are people willing to work hard for long hours to make
a better life for themselves and their families. Our children
do not stand to be corrupted by their values, so much as
their children stand to be corrupted by ours.

The scapegoating of today's immigrants makes a mockery of
the Australian "fair go" and our supposed - egalitarian society.
It is a national immorality when we collectively say no to
compassion.

Joe,

Thanks for that.

My husband is thin. Not large.
Although he's very tall.

It's me who's "curvaceous" in a Nigella Lawson
kind of way.

This is the sort of injustice that happens when a country does not have a multicultural policy:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53510260

Those poor Chinese migrants are being hounded by the Feds just because they are operatives of the Chinese government trying to get stuff out of the US and back to China.

Australia will have plenty of those types here but nothing happens to them. Why? Because we have a multicultural policy to protect these poor migrants who are just trying to go about their lives and doing the right thing for their country.

America hang your head in shame. And if you don't fix the problem we will send Foxy over to give you all an old-fashioned shirt-fronting!

Dear Yuyutsu,

Faith is a matter of opinion. It is opinion with no evidence to back it up. If there is evidence it is not faith. Doubt leads to questioning. Questioning leads to knowledge. In my opinion faith is a vice. It is a curse on humanity.

Foxy,

Stop !

Actually, I have to confess that I find women from all over the world incredibly attractive. I've been tempted to use "Please, can you clear something up - does your government only allow beautiful women to migrate ?" as a chat-up line.

But they've all probably heard it before. Especially Lithuanians.

Charles Darwin talked about what he called 'hybrid vigour' in 'The Descent of Man', that the children of intermarriage tended to inherit the best, the most beautiful, the healthiest, and the most intelligent, of both of their parents.

I've never understood talk about Aboriginal women being beautiful 'for an Aboriginal' - of course they are, perhaps more than average. Almost every Aboriginal girl from Broome, with its history of Aboriginal, Japanese, Indonesian, etc., seems to be stunningly beautiful, ot maybe it's just me.

So I'm fully in support of inter-marriage between everybody, all of our kids and grand-kids. Driving past the Adelaide High school at closing time, my heart lifts when I see Africans walking with Asians with australians etc. Beautiful.

That's the wonderful future of multiculturalism, folks :). Half their luck.

Joe

Mr Opinion seems very convinced that we are going to be
over-run by Chinese from mainland Chinese.

Perhaps he will be able to teach our newcomers the Lingo
being so well educated as he claims to be,

It might go something like this:

" Fellow Australians, both old and new. I'm glad to
see yus all here for this important ceremony. In
welcomin' yus on behalf of Council though, I would
stress one point, important to all of yus who are
wanting to be nationalized. I would urge yus all to
learn to speak English properly. I know that, on
my own particular line, which is plumbin' I often
have the greatest difficulty in understandin' what
some of yus are talking about when you endeavour to
describe what is wrong with your sinks, baths or
cisterns - as the case may be.

Now, this is only one instance of how important it is
for reffos - er - new citizens - to learn to speak
English properly. I mean ter say, if you can say -
"comment tallez vous" in your own tongue, isn't it
just as easy to say - "how are yus goin'", in English?

So listen to the old Aussies around yus, and in next to
no time you'll be spoutin'English left, right and centre
just like the best of us".

Chris,

We are not talking about the arrival of "different people", nor are we talking about migrants/immigration. We are talking about the official policy of multiculturalism - that Australian citizens were never asked about - that encourages people to gather in tribes, to be different. No need to fit in if they don't want to. Identify politics reigns supreme, and Australia, like most Western countries, is rapidly becoming a country of disparate tribes.

Too many people confuse 'race' with 'culture'. Races are equal, cultures are not.

And, yes. In the case of this insidious policy of multiculturalism, politicians have definitely done "as they like"

"means that those Aussies that do support immigration and multiculturalism support the rights of foreigners more than they respect the rights of their fellow Australians."

I'm talking about people like Foxy, who couldn't give a crap what Australians that oppose immigration and multiculturalism think.

They don't care that we 'who so generously allowed them to come to our country' might not want the nation swamped with immigrants and PC crap.

Their supporting of the PC narrative means they have critical mass and we who oppose have no voice and no choice.

She ain't a 10th generation Aussie who's parents fought in all our major wars, her family ran away from their country and gatecrashed ours after the war.

They didn't want to fix their own country, they wanted something easier so they came here, and now they speak for us?

You all talk about the contribution from immigrants.
So bloody what?

Thanks for your efforts, truly, but this doesn't mean you can turn our country into the one you ran away from.
Our country does NOT owe YOUR culture anything.

You came here because you wanted to be a part of OUR country.
Remember? No you don't, because you didn't did you?
You didn't want to come here, you just wanted to get away from where you were previously.
They never gave a crap about the people who were already here, they thought it was a completely unpopulated clean slate where they could just start again and live the way they did where they came from.
Could give a stuff about the people who were here already.

And this is why they have this attitude where they think they can impose what they believe on everyone else, after all, "I'm an immigrant" they say to themselves, "Why shouldn't everyone be able to bumrush Australia and turn it into the worlds toilet, we did."

Yes, immigrants should respect the religion and culture of the people in Australia. However, the English didn't. They forced their religion on the people already here in Australia. It was a nonsense religion with a virgin having a baby, god in three parts, life after death, a man dying for the sins of others and other rubbish. I think there has been no comparable disrespect for Australian culture by later ethnic groups than that shown by the English. Not only did they show disrespect for the culture of the Aborigines, but they occasionally massacred them. John Howard objected to mentioning that history. He called it the black armband view. Of course, not all immigrants have behaved like that - not even all the English. However, no immigrant group after the English has behaved as bad.

Yes, David, the English shewed no respect for the religion of the locals, did you catch your lack of respect for peoples religion from them or have you developed your bad manners independently?

Dear David,

«Faith is a matter of opinion.»

I disagree: faith is an attitude, not an opinion.

Faith requires courage, determination, focus and strength.
One must look both fears and temptations in the eye, and follow that which they have faith in regardless.

Opinions are much easier and cheaper to have, requiring no great sacrifice.

«Doubt leads to questioning. Questioning leads to knowledge.»

It is good that you appreciate knowledge.
One can simultaneously have faith AND intellectual doubt, there is no contradiction - living by faith until such time that it converts into knowledge, meanwhile fearlessly and thoroughly contemplating the existential and ontological questions.

«In my opinion faith is a vice. It is a curse on humanity.»

Yes, any sensible person would agree that this indeed is your opinion.

Dear Individual,

«Generally, here on Earth, people work for a living for themselves»

Indeed, but do you prefer we live on earth or in heaven¹?

Mankind has stuffed it and created much more work than is needed for a comfortable survival. It also keeps overcrowding the world with more and more babies in order to complicate life, unnecessarily. The reason for that, I believe, is that people are too afraid to face the "monsters" in their own mind, so they keep distracting themselves, including through excessive and unnecessary work.

Welfare is a good way to relax the tyrannical constraints of work. It ought to keep alive the bodies of those who are willing to live frugally, who instead of seeking luxuries out in the world, are willing to spend most of their time looking within, which is free. Those who seek luxuries outside, will anyway not be content with what they can get on the dole, so they will stay in the rat-race instead.

---
¹ "And unto Adam He said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." [Genesis 3:17-19]

Foxy,

Are you trying to turn a joke into a poem or a poem into a joke?

I'll give you a helping hand. I've run out of words so maybe you can finish this for me:

A father has three daughters, each having been invited to the high school prom.

A knock on the door:
Hi I'm Lance
I've come to take Nance to the dance
Hi Lance
Here's Nance off you prance

Second knock on the door:
Hi I'm Lou
I've come to take Sue to the do
Hi Lou
Here's Sue off you shoo

Third knock on the door:
Hi I'm Buck
...............................

Dear ttbn,

You are quite right. I have no respect for the religion of the English. However, I would not herd them into compounds, force my views on them, interfere with their practice or harm them in any way. I do not think it is bad manners to label nonsense as such.

Dear Yuyutsu,

You wrote: "Faith requires courage, determination, focus and strength.."

I agree. So does fanaticism. Faith is courage, determination, focus and strength in the service of nonsense.

You also wrote "One must look both fears and temptations in the eye, and follow that which they have faith in regardless."

Yes, that is faith. That sounds precisely like the attitude of the fanatics who flew the airplanes into the World Trade Center on 9/11. Somehow, I think it's better to think about what you are doing than to have the curse of faith. In my opinion faith stinks.

The English 'religion; that david f is repulsed by is not nearly as irrational and violent as godless secularism produced by atheism over the last 40 years. Murdering the unborn, pornography , rape, violence, drug usage, violent crime and virtue signalling all in plague proportions. David's hatred certainly leads to irrational rhetoric and a very revised form of history.

Dear David,

«That sounds precisely like the attitude of the fanatics who flew the airplanes into the World Trade Center on 9/11.»

Can we really know their attitude? They died before they could tell us.

If I guess correctly, then these guys indeed looked their fears in eye, but DID NOT look temptation in the eye, so their desire for 72 beautiful virgins twisted and overwhelmed their unstable heads around.

Most humans work and toil in the service of nonsense, because this world is nonsense, it is fleeting, sooner or later none of what we do here will remain or even be remembered.

But most people are not thinking of it, they lack the courage, they lack the determination, they lack the focus, they lack the strength, and so their life passes away in vain.

Now you also find some people who have these qualities. They might still be ignorant and possess wrong ideas as to what IS worthwhile, but at least they do not pass through life grazing like animals in a distracted state, in other words, they are capable of faith. Their faith might not be in God, perhaps they instead have faith in some statements that they were told ABOUT God.

This is a dangerous state, but what is the alternative? Remaining sheep forever and living a futile life?

Somehow, we need to cross through this dangerous phase whereby we have faith in what could be an untruth, so that we can end up on the other shore with faith in the Truth (whatever it is: I call it God, but please do not rush blindly to discard my statement and note that I actually refer here to God, not to some biblical/Koranic or otherwise superficial ideas of Him).

For that we need good, experienced and thorough guidance.
This must include the guidance to look temptations in the eye, not just fears.
Sadly, these poor fellows from 9/11 did not have the fortune to receive this guidance, but received a wrong and/or partial guidance.

Yes, poorly-directed faith stinks.

Dear runner,

The facts don't support you.

https://visual.ly/community/Infographics/lifestyle/religion-and-crime-there-correlation

The more religious states in the US have higher crime rates than the less religious states. Godless secularists are more likely to be law-abiding peaceful citizens than fundamentalist Christians.

I certainly don't hate religious people or anybody else. However, they are more likely to be law breakers than the general population. Before you run off at the mouth again you might get some facts. The Scandinavian countries which have a low rate of religious belief also have a low crime rate.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country lists countries by crime rates. The five countries with the lowest crime rates are not Christian. Venezuela has the highest crime rate in the world. If the Australian population became godless atheists you might lose your job as there would be fewer criminals.

The facts don't support you. They support me.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I have many questions about life. I try to use my reason, but I am aware reason has its limits. Kant explored its limits.

The following is something I read about Kant in “50 Philosophy Classics”:

"For him, religion was not a pathway to connect with spiritual truth (which was impossible), but a validation of carefully reasoned moral positions. His thinking made it seem acceptable for a rational, modern person who accepts science and logic to keep room in their life for spirituality. Yet in saying that nothing concrete could ever be said in theology (because it was a field of inquiry into a subject of reality that could not be known, or at least sensibly written or spoken of), Kant also laid the philosophical pavement for modern philosophy, including the logical positivists and Wittgenstein.

His work has remained compelling and influential because it manages to serve two camps: the empirically minded can say that Kant showed all talk of God and theology to be guff, and believers can see in his work a rational foundation for moral law and metaphysics. Either way, because his system is so rigorous, comprehensive and internally cohesive, no philosopher since has been able to ignore him."

So I won’t ignore him, either. I am reading his "Critique of Pure Reason" and will try to live a moral life without faith. From my reading of history faith has been responsible for much more harm than good.

Joe,

Mixed marriages are now part and parcel of our modern
world. My parents wanted me to marry someone of their
cultural background. I followed my heart.
As did my children. As will my grand-children.
There will be interesting times ahead for us all.

Armchair Critic,

The beauty of our country (and the world) lies in the
diversity of its people.

What should concern us is prejudiced thought, irrationality,
illogical arguments, narrow-mindedness and intolerance.

You are proud of your ancestors and heritage. I am equally
proud of mine. That should mean that the two are
incompatible.

Is Mise,

You asked David about the disrespect of other people's
religion. I got disrespect for other religion's bashed
into me by Catholic Irish nuns. "Sisters of Mercy", who were
anything but merciful. And by local Irish priests preaching
intolerance from their pulpits.

Mr O,

Glad to see you do have a sense of humour.

runner,

David once told you that you don't like facts.

I think David was right.

no immigrant group after the English has behaved as bad
davidf,
Which immigrant group other than the Anglo Saxon is still compensating the Australian Indigenous to this day ?

Well, multiculturalism is great, and is working just fine in Aus - fish 'n chips (beer-battered Barra of course) on Fridays, Moussaka, Chow Mein, Nasi Goreng, Three-tiered-prawn, Dim sum, Sushi, Lasagna or Spaghetti Bolognese, Vindaloo curry, Irish Stew, Roo tail, bacon and egg roll, rice, mash, okra, peas, Tiramisu, Rizogalo, junket or trifle and custard - magic!

Food choice is great - and so are the great mixture of people.

Many new Aussies are the very salt of the earth, though some may dress differently, dance differently, speak differently, appear different, and pray differently, they've taken to Aus, and we've (mostly) taken to them.
And when I say 'new' I'm taking in a lot of years, right up to now.

Heard of some 10 pound Poms who expected to take over the place - because of their 'Brit heritage' I suppose - and couldn't wait to make the fare 'home' asap, once they realized Aussies weren't a pushover.

A few problems with some of the most recent arrivals, but they'll mostly settle-in pretty soon - if we treat them reasonably and give them a chance. Meantime, some do need some schooling and some discipline - though that's the same for some dyed-in-the-wool Aussies who can't help but chide over all the interlopers taking the jobs they wouldn't do themselves 'in a pink fit'.

Takes all kinds - new, and old.

Religion is personal, and as long as all comply with 'Do unto Others as You would have ...', then it should be ok - but no fudging.

When we look around at say Syria, Iraq, Myanmar, you'd have to say that religious freedom in Aus is working pretty well.

One thing I would say about religion, it seems quite a reasonable way to inculcate basic morality and ethics - if handled properly.
I reckon I've done reasonably with it, not perfect, but ok.
(Not that its had such a great effect on some dinky-di's though.)

Dear David,

«I am reading his "Critique of Pure Reason" and will try to live a moral life without faith.»

While I believe that I could, if I wanted and invested the necessary time and effort, punch some holes in Kant's attempts to justify morality in rational terms alone, this would be the most foolish thing for me to do.

Suppose one practices morality out of faith in Kant's book, then why not? what is important here is that they practice morality, itself an important preliminary step towards spirituality. Rare enough are the people who are genuinely interested in morality, rarer still are those who use it as a springboard to spirituality. If people pursue morality because of Kant, then blessed be Kant.

«From my reading of history faith has been responsible for much more harm than good.»

First we must be careful whether history-books recorded true faith, mere beliefs, or even total hypocrisy and pretense at faith.

Then we should look at what their faith (if any) was in.
Even when they claim that their faith was in God, we must be reserved and wonder whether it was truly God that they had faith in, or just some borrowed idea of Him.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Good bye for now.

Individual wrote: "Which immigrant group other than the Anglo Saxon is still compensating the Australian Indigenous to this day ?"

Although the Anglo-Saxons were the greatest criminals compensation to Aborigines is set by parliament. In these days of multiculturalism the ethnic mix of the Australian parliament is reflective of the ethnic mix of Australia.

Multiculturalism is the reason Victoria is locked down and in a total state of disarray.

Armchair Critic,

Victoria is in lockdown because of runaway WuFlu.

But I understand what you are saying: We can trace the cause of our problems to factors that led us down the path that eventually brought us to the WuFlu pandemic. That's exactly the sort of thing historians and sociologists do. They unlock the hidden facts that the ordinary person cannot see.

ttbn,

I agree, cultures are not equal.

There is the problem of multiculturalism in societies with very large minorities, assuming many will not want to fit in.

I think we can go alright, but we shall see in coming decades, especially as economic decline/difficulties test us all.

ttbn & Chris Lewis,

I agree. Cultures are not equal. Mine is best.

ttbn, Chris & david f,

Cultures are equal in that that all are directed towards adaptation and survival of the social group.

What I think you are trying to say is that they are different.

david f,
People will always be ignorant about the future. It was like that 250 years ago just as it is today about 250 years in the future.
Anglo Saxons were ignorant due to religious indoctrination just as Leftists are today with self-loathing indoctrination.
Why didn't the Aborigines act with more foresight ? Why, because they had even less foresight let alone any concept of anything outside their existence just as many of those 'migrants' who were sent here against their will !
There are many Aborigines who travel all over the world also paid for by the Govt of the day.

David,

At the end of the day, I am prepared to say it.

The West is the best, forget the rest. And i refer to the British legacy, despite all its wrongdoing.

Challenge is to keep is that way.

Mr. Opinion,

No. I wasn't "trying to say" anything. I said what I meant: all cultures are not equal.

AC,

There's a lot of truth in what you say. The person who started this thread is an 'ethnic', born here I believe, but an offspring of Eastern European parents. I noticed in a post on whether or not the Liberal should become more conservative, she quite irrelevantly stated that that party should take in more 'ethnics'. I would have thought there were plenty of them in all parties, several of them making absolute fools of themselves (caught out) in both Liberal and Labor recently. Fortunately, most 'ethnics' are not such bigoted (or embittered?) extreme thinkers, and are as Australian as any of us, following their families' move to a better life, away from countries that they considered to be inferior to this one.

And in your next post "Multiculturalism is the reason Victoria is locked down and in a total state of disarray", I agree that Victoria's very heavy multiculturalism could well be part of the problem. Non-English speaking for starters, as well as cultures belligerent to law and order and the values of cooperative interaction within a society.

individual,

You say "People will always be ignorant about the future."

But the more we know about the Arts things like history, sociology, anthropology, archaeology, philosophy, etc., the better position we will be in to make a very good educated guess about where things are heading and what the probable outcomes might be.

If we ignore all of those Arts things and stop studying them then we will run the risk of preventing bad things from happening.

We can attempt to control our future using our knowledge of the Arts things or just do what Foxy, LOUDmouth and many others do by turning a blind eye to things, pretending nothing bad can happen, and keeping our head buried in the sand forever.

Which path do you want to follow? I know the one I want to take.

Mr O, you beat up the importance of the Arts,

Plenty of people know about the world without going to university.

Foxy,

We have had very different experiences of Catholic education.

i attended a Marist school and we were taught that although ours was the 'one, true religion' we studied others and noted their good points.
Never once in all the years that I have attended Mass have I ever heard a Priest condemn another religion or preach intolerance.

Eric Liddell, the Scottish, Pesbyterian Olympian (in more ways than one) was held up to us as an example of a committed Christian for his personal stance, under great pressure, in refusing to forego his beliefs on the sanctity of Sunday.

"At the 1924 Summer Olympics in Paris, Liddell refused to run in the heats for his favoured 100 metres because they were held on a Sunday. Instead he competed in the 400 metres held on a weekday, a race that he won. He returned to China in 1925 to serve as a missionary teacher. Aside from two furloughs in Scotland, he remained in China until his death in a Japanese civilian internment camp in 1945."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Liddell

The choice of Ian Charleson to play him in "Chariots of Fire" was brilliant.

Chris,

Everyone knows something about the world they live in. But not everyone knows a lot about the world they live in.

We do the Arts things like history, sociology, anthropology, archaeology, philosophy, etc., so that we can know a lot about the world we live in.

There are a lot of people who will tell you they know a lot (like many on The Forum) but when asked to prove it they cannot do it.

They say they read a lot of books but cannot show anyone that they read lots of books. Anyone can say they read lots of books. Proving it is another thing.

Anyone can say they have a lot of knowledge about the world. proving it is another thing.

That's the reason I place emphasis on having formal qualifications. There are a lot of charlatans out there who will try to fool us that they have a lot of knowledge about the world they live in but in fact can only tell you what they think they know and not what they know.

one of the great movies

put it this way, given thread is about multiculturalism, I did not learn much about this concept at university which was not related to left wing bias.

I did what was needed to get a HD, but really thought the lecturer had no idea about reality.

one day I told him off for brainwashing students with bs about the working class being responsible for multiculturalism.

He would later retract in class and buy me a lunch.

so Mr O, you are sadly mistaken in your glory praise of the Arts.

In my experience and my opinion, most have little idea beyond what they wish for in their world of make believe.

David F said
I agree. Cultures are not equal. Mine is best.

Answer-
That's why every culture should have their own nation. So that they don't try and prove it to the other cultures. If you knock down the borders you create conflict and alienation. It's ok to visit another culture but it has to be on their terms.

My view is you should also read "The fourfold root of the principle of sufficient reason"- Arthur Schoepenhauer it's based on Kant's work. But you did say that many philosophers have used Kant's work.

In the end philosophy can be used to influence the minds of the "voting" public (in a broad sense) but it should not be used to replace the minds of the public in the form of a "Pseudo Scientific Dictatorship".

As the "territory" controlled by the government becomes larger it becomes more dictatorial- there needs to be a balance between bottom up and top down approaches.

The duty of a responsible member of the public is to understand and defend themselves from those that seek to govern them so that they can't be deceived and intimidated easily. They should not allow themselves to become disarmed

Posted by Armchair Critic, Thursday, 23 July 2020 7:50:48 PM

Thanks for your comment AC- It said what I couldn't say in my own words.

What a tangled web we weave - in search of truth, vision, enlightenment? Or, justification for our 'beliefs', opinions, bias, prejudices?

On another thread I was suggesting that the approach of BLM (in the US) to their inalienable 'concerns' - with rampaging, looting, destroying - might come back to bite them, and was certainly no way to convince others that they are really quite reasonable, trustworthy and fantastic people who have had a poor trot, and so could not be blamed for any bad behaviour.

Maybe I reacted in haste.
Certainly they may well have been 'guided' in their approach by the marvellous example set by the NRA and its leaders and followers. Maybe a few screws loose, all-round, scattered through the mix?

Nonetheless it got me thinking, what may the future hold?
A cursory glance at the world today shows just how far the British Empire has shrivelled - with even Ireland split in two and Scotland looking to be Independent.
Europe in a fair mess, trying against heavy odds to maintain 'integrity', with some states always near economic collapse, some propping-up the show, and some new questionable entrants possibly brought on-board to avert an imminent collapse of the whole box and dice?
U.S. in identity struggle. Africa and the rest trying hard.

Meanwhile, China going gang-busters and spreading its wings.
India not going too bad, and has proven inventive and entrepreneurial capability - just look at Silicon Valley - and has a massive mostly young population.
Japan, going very reasonably, but with an aging population.
Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore peddling or raging along here and there.

Bottom Line: Humans arose in Africa, spread and evolved into a kaleidoscope of whitish and brownish groups - but still maintaining a solid and growing 'original' group including many spread all over.

Maybe Black lives really do matter far more than we realise; and the way things are going 'whitey' may well be on the way out.
So, heterogeneity the way to go? Or a mostly wall-to-wall 'brown' future?

With multiculturalism, Aus has a reasonable each-way bet.
Goodonya, and the best of British!

ttbn,

I'm afraid you are running close to the wire with some of the scurrilous and unappreciated aspersions in your recent post on this thread. (Page 15, 24 July 2020 11:51:15 AM)

I will be keeping an eye out for any further veiled and camouflaged abuse of yours with which I may have to take further exception.

Careful, old mate. You are treading a dangerous path.

There are many reasonable and respected contributors on this Forum, and they are deserving of our, and your, respect.
So, cut it out.

Nudge, nudge.

CM,

So, tens of thousands of nations then ? Most of them at war with others ?

That's really an inevitable outcome of the old-fashioned lett-wing notion of cultural relativism - that all cultures are equally valid in their own contexts. For that, of course we need to keep people 'in their own contexts'. Apartheid comes to mind as a means to do that.

So what is the situation for people not 'in their own contexts' ? i.e. who have migrated to another 'context' ? Surely they have to grapple with very different situations, and tolerate the possibility that their taken-for-granted notions either won't be tolerated (say, polygamy ) or can't be acted on easily. And of course, that the common language may be different.

Migrants are usually prepared to modify their behaviour, and to learn another language. So it may be unnecessary to require people to maintain their cultural slots and somehow stay segregated.

If anything, it may be more difficult for the dominant 'culture' to come to terms with strangers in their midst - and one can see this discomfort from some of the comments on this thread - and to recognise that, by definition in a democracy, the newcomers have as much rights as they have, that the dominant group has NO right to dictate and assume that it has extra rights over newcomers, above and beyond the requirements that newcomers recognise the rule of law, equality of rights, and the need for a common language.

In Australia, common and varying rights include the rights to one's own political persuasions, religious beliefs, choice of occupation, etc. Equal rights should prevail in a democracy.

And they seem to be working okay for those who wish to exercise them, once people have mastered the language. Even Misop seems to have managed.

Joe

Armchair Critic,

Please excuse the mistake I made in my last comment to
you on page 13. It was late in the evening and I was
tired. The last sentence should have read:

" That should NOT mean that the two are incompatible".

Dear Chris,

We must not think that Australia is immune to the viruses
that destroy nations, any more than any of us are immune
to the flu (or the current pandemic) if it's coming
through our city.

Many of the things that most of us were brought up to think
could "never happen here"have begun to happen. Dangerous
scapegoating, small-minded intolerance - just look at some
of the posts on this forum and in this discussion.

Dear Saltpetre,

Thank You for your comments on multiculturalism and
religion. Thank You also for commenting on ttbn's attempted
slurs. But don't worry. I've grown up knowing people like
him. Thank goodness they are a minority in this country.

As for Lithuanians in Australia? They have always been a
tiny minority. Never approaching even 0.01% of Australia's
total population. However their impact on the Australian
culture has been far greater that their numbers suggest.

Most post-war Lithuanian immigrants came to Australia as
refugees, displaced persons, part of the first wave of
Baltic immigrants who were invited by the Australian
government in war-torn Europe to come to this country.
The Baltic people had fled from persecution, from the
communist Soviet Regime that had seized their countries.

The post war- Lithuanian immigrants came as indentured labour.
That is, every migrant over the age of 18 had to enter into
a 2 year contract with the Australian government which
obliged the migrant to work wherever directed.

The contracts were strictly enforced even if it meant
families were split up.

Generally speaking Lithuanians are well integrated into
Australian society. They have achieved a high proficiency
in English and are participating in Australians cultural
activities.

Lithuanians have always been self-reliant and self sufficient.
And this is a trait we have passed onto our children.

Foxy,

"The post war- Lithuanian immigrants came as indentured labour.
That is, every migrant over the age of 18 had to enter into
a 2 year contract with the Australian government which
obliged the migrant to work wherever directed"

I well remember some of the anomalies; as a lad I worked on the NSWGR and we had a migrant (Balts in common usage) who was posted to the steam depot as a shed labourer, he was a noted surgeon and the District Locomotive Engineer moved him into the DLE's office as a clerk to save his hands and unofficially to have an expert on hand to back up the First Aid Post.

Another posting to the depot was a famous pianist who also ended up in the DLE's office and who used to delight the workers with impromptue lunch hour concerts; these were only two among many.

We also had one who was very handsome, tall and well built and who looked remarkably like the depictions of an idealized Christ, one day the police took him away on a charge of armed robbery, he was the only one that I knew who went (or was) bad.

Is Mise,

Thanks for that.

Walter Jona the then Victorian State Minister of
Immigration and Ethnic Affairs was quoted as saying
to a large gathering of Lithuanians in Dallas Brooks
Hall in Melbourne 26 Dec. 1976: -

"But the best thing about you Lithuanians is that on
the street you are indistinguisable from ordinary
Australians - and the worst - is that there are not
enough of you".

According to survey done - the 10,000 Lithuanians who
came to Australia have created at least 11,000 jobs.
After completion of their 2 year contracts many newcomers
established building companies, new factories, retail
shops, service and repair centres, skating rinks, tailor
shops, and even a complete town (Eucla). Others have
contributed in the fields of Art, Music, theatre, the
professions - from medicine, law, teaching, nursing,
and much much more.

To get back to religion - I should clarify that - despite
some of my bad early experiences - I did find that life
without a conscious awareness of God for me was difficult.
My father was raised by the Jesuits. And my children did
attend private Catholic schools in Melbourne.

Dear Foxy,

Take heart ! At the last Census, 0.06 % of Australians had Lithuanian ancestry, including:

* Doug Cameron

* Jason Akermanis

* Peter Malinauskas (one of SA's best politicians)

* Osher Gunsberg

* Rebecca Wiasak

* Shanina Shaik

and many other fine Australians.

Joe

Saltpetre,

You have a reading problem. The only person to make a comment at 11:51:15 was Chris Lewis. My last post before your idiotic cancel culture remarks was at 10:20:33. Nobody with your handicap should be lecturing other people.

But, how dare you say you will be "keeping an eye out" for "veiled and camouflaged (tautology) abuse" when you don't even describe this 'abuse'. Who the hell do you think you are? Graham Young? The coordinator is the only person to make such comments here, you pipsqueak.

If you have the gumption and the ability to spell out this 'abuse' that I'm supposed to have posted, do so. Just make sure you have the right post this time. And, in future, try to keep your Fascistic speech blocking threats to yourself.

Joe,

Thank You for the list of Lithuanians.

I love Osher Gunsberg. Here's a few more names to add
to your list that you may not know have Lithuanian
ancestry:

David Suchet - actor who plays Poirot.

Robert Zemeckis - Hollywood blockbuster Director.

Robert Downey Jr. - actor.

William Shatner - actor.

Pink - singer.

Sean Penn - actor.

Ruta Lee - actress.

Sir John Gielgud - actor.

Laurence Harvey - actor.

Bob Dylan - musician.

Charles Bronson - actor.

John C. Reilly - comic - actor.

And the list goes on.

How can you tell if someone was raised as a Lithuanian?

1) They love Lithuanian food.
2) Basketball is their second religion.
3) They can speak more than one language.
4) They can survive a great big fat Lithuanian wedding, feast
or family get together.
5) They most likely gifted someone amber.
6) They're a nature child.
7) They love sun, sea, and sand.
8) They get whipped once a year (for health reasons).
9) They're experienced in explaining what the hot red
soup is or the cold pink one.
10) If they're female - they're extremely beautiful.
11) They love to dance and sing - and they're very good at it.
12) And they love with strong passion.

This is starting to get really weird.

And here I was thinking LOUDmouth was the only one with mental issues.

I like UK and US culture.

That is all I need.

r O,

Not all of us share your mental issues of anti -
immigration, whoopee cushions, and anything Chinese.

Dear Chris,

Good for you.

Been to the Uk and the US recently?

Dear Saltpetre,

ttbn did cast some scurrilous and unappreciated aspersions
at me in his previous post to AC on page 15 of this
discussion. The time is irrelevant. (10.20.33 AM).
I'm used to his bites. He can't help himself. I ignore
them. He's the typical thug bogan nasty. For him that's
normal behaviour. Most of us avoid any inter-action.
Unless provoked. He's the reason God invented the
middle-finger. There's others on this forum that
also qualify for the finger. But heck - that's the norm
around here.

yes, three years ago USA. England in next few years.

Great cultures. The world would be a very boring place without them.

Don't really care about other cultures.

Chris, Which part of current UK and US?

I have been to Hawaii, New York and California.

Last visit was to NY.

The locals said I saw more of New York than they had in their life times.

Walked everywhere. 70,000 steps some days.

Rode around entire Manhattan, through the city like I was young again.

Went to all the boroughs, spoke to many locals.

I love sport, so NY and London are my more favoured places to visit.

Went to NFL, MLB and WNBA.

Planning on a month long visit to London in a few years when my daughter is old enough to take it all in.

sure, It would be a hard place to live if your were a low skilled worker, but I love the USA.

I also love NZ.

And, of course, I love Australia. I am so glad my Greek parents chose a country with a dominant Anglo-celtic culture.

Dear Chris,

So you love London and you went to all the burroughs
in New York. You do realize that both London and
New York are the most multicultural of cities?
The most cosmopolitan? Perhaps that's what you and
why you loved them both so much?

And perhaps why you love Australia today - is for
the same reasons. It's no longer the Anglo-Celtic
culture of the 1950s. Yay!

Open your eyes and take a look around you. Take off the
blinkers.

BTW: What is your real family name? That of your parents.
And what name were you baptized with?

I bet it wasn't Chris Lewis originally.

Dear Chris,

This is for you:

Growing Up Double

At the end of their refugee journey,
the long forced pilgrimage, burdened
with the smallest and heaviest bundles,
they settle at last, uneasily,
in the wounded heart of a city
or its distant fringes beyond
the fashionable and complacent suburbs.

The small children learn
the unspoken rules of a double life:
Here, in the father's domain,
the old ways are preserved: chickens
slaughtered in the back yard, the mother
tongue enforced, though the children
are already beginning to speak it
with strange new accents
that grate on their parents' ears

Outside the father's door
in the streets and schoolyards of the new world,
the immigrant children soon speak like locals,
are re-baptized
by their new friends with new names,
They will respond to two names,
will carry them both
for separate occasions.

In the homes of their new playmates,
they see what they never see under their own roofs -
animals treated like people (dogs and cats at table),
or possessions treated with indifference
by those who never had to turn their backs
and walk quickly away
with only the suddenly precious
contents of their own pockets.

To be human, of course, is to adjust
to almost anything, and the children grow
into their double lives
gracefully and easily.
After all, it may not be
that much more difficult
to cultivate two identities than one - and
in the end, even
a little easier to see through.
(Al Zolynas).

I wonder if anyone has anything to say about Jews in Lithuania from the 4th Century up to the Nazi occupation. Or, are we allowed to discuss only 'nice' things? Any discussion would not be 'off topic' because it speaks to the origin of immigrants who make up 'multicultural Australia'.

I'm not going to elaborate because anything I say might be construed as 'abuse', and I'm constantly told that nobody takes any notice of me anyway. I'm a "typical thug bogan" apparently. But, for those interested, there is a lot of reading available on the subject, including that there was more local collaboration in the deportation and worse of Lithuanian Jews than in any other country occupied during World War 2. Israel hasn't stopped looking for war criminals.

I suppose I must state that I am in no way suggesting that Foxy's parents were in any way connected to genocidal activities in wartime Lithuania, but given her everything-is-lovely-about-Lithuanians gushings, I'm not sure that she deserves the courtesy. She is a leading exponent of wild generalisation herself, particularly on migrants, their contributions and their importance.

Chris,

Foxy said London is one of the great multicultural cities of the world.

Suggest you catch 'Peaky Blinders' TV series on Netflix to see an example of how successful the multicultural milieu has been in London, showing how a Jewish group, an Italian group and a group of British gypsies come together in 1919 for a celebration of multiculturalism.

No 'Kumbaya' but still compulsive viewing if you love film and historical dramas in particular.

the Arts things like history, sociology, anthropology, archaeology, philosophy, etc.,
Mr Opinion,
Going by the evidence all around, people aren't so much against these subjects, they're simply aware that these subjects are irrelevant to a great extent in everyday life. people make a living by working with & for each other. Debating the above subjects is something they do do to pass the time at parties.
People who don't have Public Service jobs have more important subjects to concentrate on.

individual,

You are missing the point.

It's not about whether you find the Arts things applicable to vocational pursuits but using the knowledge in those things to understand why things happen.

If you are only interested in work-related knowledge that's great. We need drones to meet all of our everyday needs.

What I think Mr Opinion is implying- a lot of people talk about things they don't understand- like history, sociology, anthropology, archaeology, philosophy, etc. Often they underestimate their own understanding due to the Kruger Effect. While I agree- I don't think that people shouldn't have an opinion about things that affect themselves- even if they aren't educated in the subject matter. They have a duty to make the decisions that are in the best interest of themselves. Those that have this education are a resource of the nation- it's the duty of those that understand to use this knowledge for the benefit of the nation. Of course they should also benefit personally from this knowledge.

There are those that believe that we should leave our future to experts- as if they can be trusted absolutely- they can't be- as is shown by the anti- democratic self serving "education industry" and "citizenship factories" of contemporary universities.

I'm sure if my ancestry would have been German -
ttbn would have found a way to bring up the Holocaust.
That's the type of person he is.

History is full of atrocities committed by nations.
Including Australia. The ADF is under investigation
for their behaviour in Afghanistan. Trials are pending.

Lithuania had been the center of Jewish learning and
religious study for centuries. Vilnius its capital was
called the "Jerusalem of Lithuania".

Lithuania was the first country in the world to
prosecute Nazi conspirators. It happened in 1934 - 35, more
than ten years before the Nuremberg Trials.

http://www.slic.org.au/Lithuania/NaziTrial.htm

World War II produced tens of millions of victims. Some
were combatants, some civilian casualties of the war. Others
were victims of genocide planned by the warring powers.
The Nazis and the Bolsheviks committed unheard of
cruelties. There were also of course numerous courageous
men and women who refused to participate in the subjugation
and destruction of the targeted groups and individuals.

There were Jews who interceded with their lives to save
persecuted Christians, there were Christians who died in
their attempts fo save Jews.

They died, some along with their entire families, or accepted
their fates in concentration camps rather than betray their
fellow men.

Some are known, but most perished and are known only to God.
These heroes embody human nobility in its highest form and
stand as beacons in the other wise bleak history of WWII.

Among those who, out of greed or cowardice, chose to
collaborate with the evil minions of the NKVD and the
Gestapo were Christians and Jews, Germans and Russians,
members of all nations caught in the merciless war. No
faith, no nationality, no race was free of cowards or
collaborators. No group was spared from killers and
traitors in its midst.

Some of these villains perished, some were captured and punished,
for the most part shortly after the conclusion of the war. Other
escaped retribution, dying, as did Stalin and Hitler.
The evil architects themselves - without having been
brought to justice.

cont'd ...

ttbn,

Ok, I had the right page and date, just the wrong time.
(Posted by ttbn, Friday, 24 July 2020 10:20:33 AM)
So, you're really quite touchy, aren't you.
Self confident, full of, 'knowledge' - and not at all prejudiced or possibly mistaken about anything. Good for you.
As for what I was 'referring to' - you know full well.

However, I must say I did not at all appreciate your guttural attempted 'rebuke' on Page 18 (Posted by ttbn, Friday, 24 July 2020 4:42:41 PM) in response to my well-meaning suggestion(s) that perhaps you could benefit from applying some manners to your contributions.

Not to worry, your latest post on this thread, on Page 20 - (Posted by ttbn, Friday, 24 July 2020 7:13:48 PM) - was right up there, equally a piece of self-serving detritus, so you should be proud; you are at least consistent.

Go well. I shall not trouble you again, or take any note of you at all.

(Who knows who else might be observing our pointless 'banter'.)

My grandmother came from a little town in Lithuania.

https://jewishaction.com/books/reviews/world-900-year-chronicle-shtetl-eishyshok/#:~:text=There%20Once%20Was%20a%20World%20has%20been%2019,well-written%20and%20documented%2C%20with%20copious%20notes%20and%20photographs. leads one to a book. There once was a World, about its history.

“The Lithuanian Jews, in particular, held fast to the qualities that made them unique. No matter where the latest national boundaries lay or what flag flew above them, they remained within the fixed, permanent borders of their cultural identity. To be a Lithuanian Jew – a Litvak – was to have values and cultural ideals that set you apart not just from your non-Jewish neighbors but from the Polish Jews, the Chassidim and the Jews who lived in the Pale of Settlement. The Jews of Eishyshok were the very embodiment of those with Lithuanian characteristics – sharpness of intellect, pungency of wit, a deep dedication to scholarship, intense religiosity, stubborn self-sufficiency, and an unceasing industriousness – especially during the shtetl’s last four centuries. They were to remain so even under the influence of Polish Jewry, which had an even greater impact from the sixteenth century on.”

The above sounds like my grandmother. She was magnificent. When she died a history of the French and Indian War was by her bedside. She wanted to know more about the history of her environs. She combined her religiosity with skepticism. She observed the religious strictures. However she said, “When the Messiah comes” to mean ‘never’. Other people in the town reserved their parlors for weddings and funerals. We lived in her’s. She would line up the kitchen chairs, and they become the dining car on a train. “Would you like to have something to eat before we get to Albany?” One time she and my grandfather were arguing. It got to the stage where crockery was hurled. She pointed to him and laughed. He was startled but joined in the laughter. He had a ready wit and was quick with a quip or a pun. He lived seven years after she died, but I never heard him laugh again.

continued

We need drones to meet all of our everyday needs.
Mr Opinion,
It's drones such as yourself that the Leftists indoctrinate to further their interests !

continued

He was from Riga, Latvia and was walking through Eishyshok when he saw her. They were both supposed to marry other people, but that never happened. He got to the United States and sent for her. They were living on the lower East Side when she got pregnant. They decided that was no place to raise children. They wound up in a little village, Brandon, NY, in the Adirondacks. The other five families were all French Canadians. That’s where my mother was born, and she spoke French before she learned English.

In the Holocaust museum in Washington are three stories of photographs. When the Russians reoccupied Eishyshok during WW2 they found photography shops with photo plates showing Jews picnicking, working and generally living. Those photos grace the walls of the museum. My grandmother had left her hometown about fifty years before the Nazis wiped out the Jews in the town

World War II produced tens of millions of victims.
Foxy,
Do you think there would have been a WW2 resulting in so many deaths if the Allies had not decided to oppose Germany & made the whole show spiral out of control instead of making a better World ?

individual,

Are there any more like you at home?

Mr Opinion,
Is that the best answer a Sociologist can come up with ?

Foxy,

You really don’t get what some of us have to say.

I don’t see multiculturalism like you do.

As for myself being blinkered about multiculturalism, this is another example of your need to dominate debate given you always know the answers even before you start a thread.

Given I have regularly stated I am all for a multi-ethnic society, but do have some concerns, you need to show us the error of our ways besides your usual isn’t life great rhetoric. Mocking me does not really cut the mustard.

The reality is that a society has every right to ensure that ethnic minorities do not rock the boat in terms of what Australian society is about. The reality is multiculturalism in Australia will only be tested now with growing minorities and a possible period of economic decline.

While I don’t fear the future in the case of Australia, which I plan to present on OLO, I will express my individual concern on any matter I please.

Now get back to your books of wisdom, and try and show us why our concern about large minorities is nothing to worry about.

Since you and others rave on about reading history and so on, show us we have nothing to fear rather than lecture us.

Finally, of course my birth name would be different. I clearly said I was a child of Greek parents.

But how my name came to be Lewis is, frankly my dear, none of your business.

Only a rude person would ask such a question in order to make a cheap point

Chris,

You say of that woman, "You really don’t get what some of us have to say".

She doesn't get anything that cannot be found in the ABC or the gutter press, whose garbage she copies almost word for word on many occasions. Anyone who hasn't allowed themselves to be bullied by her knows this. Even ALTRAV seems to have given her away as a lost cause. It's people like her and her little two girly-man acolytes that make me wonder if OLO is worth continuing with. Perhaps it's the old battleaxe's aim, to knock off everyone she doesn't agree with. No matter what you say, she comes back again, and again, and again.

No we should all stay with OLO, even with our occasional sparring.

It is a great forum still with a lot of potential if it could attract even more contributors. I love the format of different opinions/perspectives bouncing off each other.

As I have stated before, OLO helped toughen me up as a student of politics, and learn much from the left and right about the need to take on board all perspectives

Dear David .,

Thank You so much for sharing your family's history.
Your grandmother sounds like a remarkable lady.
Thank You for giving me a small window into the
shetl of Eishyshok (Eisiskes), in Lithuania. I did
not know much about that history and since reading your
post I looked it up on the web and learned so much more.
I found out that there's even a book available -
"There Once Was a World" by Yaffa Eliach, which I will
try to get a hold of.

That Lithuanians participated in the killing of Jews is
not open to serious historical challenge, this is a fact.
A very painful fact. The Government of Lithuania has
officially accepted responsibility for the mass killings
of Jews. The Government issued a statement which acknowledged
"It is a tragedy that Lithuanian citizens were personally
involved in the mass killings organized by the Nazis".

Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's State Visit to
Lithuania August 23 - 25th 2018 was a historic event.
Mr Netanyahu and his wife participated in a Memorial
ceremony in Vilnius where Mr Netanyahu stated:

" Standing here today we remember all those who perished and
all that was destroyed. We salute the heroism of those
Lithuanians who unlike collaborators risked their own lives
as they saved many Jews. We will always honour their memory".

May the Lithuanian government continue to fund
the re-building of
synagogues, schools, Centers of Learning,
and ensure the health and vibrancy of today's
Jewish communities, that they - not only survival but grow
in Lithuania. And through full education of their population - guarantee that this
never happens again.

Chris, Xristos?

Anyway, best regards.

Peter (Aus, not Panayiotis, but I wouldn't have minded, though of course I can imagine the outcry from the 'yobs' - 'Panhandle', 'Yeti' - typical stuff from small poorly educated minds - and there are still plenty of them around, you bet.)
My Dad was intent on fitting-in to Aus culture and expectations of newcomers, so, fine with me.

Anyhow, either way, have a good one.

Dear David F.,

I found more information about the village of
Eishyshok (Eisiskes). Prof. Yaffa Eliach who
published the book "There Once Was A World",
that I had mentioned earlier to you wrote
about being re-united with her father and how
he danced in Israel at the wedding of her
daughter. Although his faith had been shattered,
he was pleased to learn the work his daughter
was documenting on Eishyshok.

Prof. Eliach recalls her father's words:

" At least the people, and perhaps even God,
will remember that there once was a world filled
with faith, Judaism, and humanity"

There's more at the following link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/nyregion/yaffa-eliach-died-holocaust-memorial-museum.html

Dear Foxy,

Thank you so much for this:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=20944

What an amazing, dedicated woman. 'Oh brave new world, that has such people in it.'

Joe

Hi Joe,

It's my birthday today and I'm enjoying a quiet day
in lockdown in Melbourne. I'm curled up with a
book of poetry. And writing a few thoughts myself.
I've received flowers, phone-calls, cards. Shared
a cake with hubbie. (he made breakkie this morning),
We're having take-away for dinner. scollopini funghi.
So it's been a lovely day. Can't complain.

There's some incredible people in the world - you're
right. And their talents are inspiring. Especially
Kevin Gilbert - whose poetry I'm reading at the moment.
I would have loved to have met him. You're lucky you did.
Still I've got you guys here on this forum.
You, Saltpetre, Paul, Steele Redux, David F., to mention just
a few. You keep me going.

Hi Foxy,

Wow ! Happy birthday, and many more ! May you live to 120 !

My wife's birthday this Monday .....

Love and best wishes,

Joe

Happy birthday, Foxy
Happy birthday, wife of Joe
May you always show your moxey
Of yesteryear, where is the snow

Dear Joe and David,

Thanks for your wishes my forum friends
May all your postings never end.

My grand-children made me some cards with
this message from Dr. Seuss:

Today you are you
That is truer than true
There is no one alive
Who is youer than you.

Joe, you must be missing your wife at this time.
Lots of memories.

Take care.

Dear Foxy,

I understand it is your birthday and I would like to wish you all the best.

It appears you do share the date with Gavrilo Princip, Bosnian-Serb assassin of Archduke Franz Ferdinand who was born in 1894.

However Rosalind Franklin, the co-discoverer of DNA also graces the day and I think this is the one we shall hold as our standard.

Congratulations and may there be many more.

Dear Steele,

Thank you for the Birthday wishes.

I share this date with a few others -

Katherine Kelly Lang - Anastacia Palaszczuk, Casimir I of
Poland, Matt LeBlanc to name just a few.

I would have loved sharing it with Jennifer Lopez (24th July),
or Nigella Lawson - (January) .

But it's not to be.

You might enjoy this from Dr. Seuss:

I do not like this Donald twit
I do not like him just one bit
I do not like his funky hair
I do not like that he doesn't care
I do not like that he thinks strange
Science facts on climate change
I do not like his 50's views
About a woman's right to choose
I do not like the way he speaks
And insults everyone he meets
I do not like his lies and tricks
I do not like his head of bricks
I do not think that he is smart
To me the man's just off the charts.

Happy Birthday Foxy,
You're true blue,
I wish there were
Many more like you.

Many happy returns,
With the Sun on your cheeks,
The Stars in your eyes,
And the Moon making cheesecake,
For you to chew.

And congratulations to 'hubbie' on making good choices.

Dear Saltpetre,

What a beautiful end to a wonderful day.

Thank You.

I feel very lucky to have met people like
you and the other warm-hearted friends that I
feel I've gotten to know through posting on this forum.

There's so many things I get wrong. But having met so
many talented people - makes this forum a very special
place. For which I am grateful.

One day late!!

Foxy a chara,

lá breithe shona duit.

Is Mise.

Dear Is Mise,

Molte grazie.

Foxy,

E 'molti grazie' non 'molte grazie'. Molto e maschile.

Do you think there is any chance Scott Morrison might introduce conscription and create a multicultural armed services to drive China out of the South China Sea (I assume you have seen the latest news re Australia's rejection of China's claim to the maritime region and our two defence ministers going to Washington for talks with the US Secretary of State)?

I just wonder how it would work with everyone trying to speak to each other in their own language. Image the situation with an Indian-speaking colonel telling a brigade to charge while at the same time a Chinese-speaking colonel is telling them to surrender. Very confusing I reckon.

PS. Buon compleanno per ieri.

Mr O,

You can put your concerns to rest.

Our Australian Defence Forces are made up of
people from various ancestral backgrounds
but all are as Australian as you and speak
English. So communication is not a problem.

Thank you for your Birthday Greetings.

Linkiu Jums - Ilgiausiu Metu, Geros Valios, ir
Daug, Daug, Sveikatos ir Dziaugsmo.

Foxy,

Sorry but I'm not convinced. Up to half the people in Sydney have Chinese as their preferred language. (it's probably similar in Melbourne I'm guessing.)

And if the defence forces make speaking English compulsory well it just won't be the multicultural thing to do.

I suppose when reality clicks in nobody will give a sh!t about good old fashioned multicultural values. Just goes to show one how fickle people really are.

Mr O,

I'm not convinced that half of the people in Sydney, Melbourne,
or any where else prefer Chinese as their language.

Try again.

Australian citizenship is required to
serve in the Navy, Army, or Airforce.

Try again.

Foxy,

Sydney is Australia's first Chinese city and if you don't believe me come here and have a look for yourself.

If anybody in Australia uses that excuse to get out of being sent to the frontline then I suggest they pack their bags and go back to China.

Mr O,

Sorry I don't understand what you're carrying on about.

You sound quite irrational.

Go talk to someone else.

cont'd ...

BTW: Australian residents identifying themselves as
having Chinese ancestry in the 2016 census made up
5.6% of the Australian population.

Suburbs which tend to attract Chinese include -
Hurstville, Burwood, Chatswood, and Ashfield.

If you want to avoid Chinese people live somewhere else
or don't go to those areas.

Problem solved.

Where we live in Melbourne we don't look at people by
their race, colour, religion, et cetera. To us they're
the same as us - human beings going about their daily
lives. The only ones that draw our attention are ill-
mannered, rude, people - on the street, in the shops,
and of course - on this forum.

Misopinionated,

Gosh, a lot of people look Chinese, don't they ? Therefore, they must be Chinese.

According to Wikipedia, at the last Census in 2016, 38.2% of people in Sydney speak a language other than English at home with Mandarin (4.7%), Arabic (4.0%), Cantonese (2.9%), Vietnamese (2.1%) and Greek (1.6%) the most widely spoken.

It's possible that quite a proportion of those in Sydney who speak Mandarin (4.7 %) don't support the CCP regime. Perhaps some of those Mandarin-speakers are not actually from China at all, but from Taiwan. Most of those wouldn't support the CCP regime.

Support for totalitarianism would be lower among the Cantonese-speaking population.

Vietnamese are not Chinese.

Neither are most Thai, Indonesian or - perhaps this may surprise you, Misop - Greek. Okay, okay, some Greeks look a bit Chinese but they're not actually.

One thing you may learn if you ever get to university is not to leap to major conclusions from mere cursory observations. Most people learn to look a bit more deeply.

Joe

Foxy,

It's a little device I picked up called sarcasm.

But I'm sure you know exactly what it is I'm implying: The enemy is already inside the gate.

And your love of multiculturalism will now have us fighting a war to push China out of the South China Sea on two fronts.

Thanks Foxy, great work!

Misop,

Come to think of it, the great majority of Chinese who I have known didn't have Mandarin as their first Chinese language either: in Darwin, I think most Chinese-speakers there when I was a kid spoke Hokkien or Cantonese - certainly, the swear-words I learnt there seem to have been Cantonese.

Fellow-students since then have tended to be speakers of Hakka or Hokkien or Cantonese rather than Mandarin-speakers. I had a very good Shanghainese-speaking friend (that's someone from Shanghai, Misop). And currently I'm deeply in love with a Hakka-speaker.

When I worked at the Sunday markets here in Adelaide, I got to know many people who were Hazara (and looked, in your schema, Chinese), and also some lovely Uighur families (who also, in your schema, looked Chinese), as well as, of course, many Vietnamese and Indonesians. Even some South Americans who I thought at first might have been Asian, including one bloke from Nicaragua who had been a security policeman under the Sandinistas. (Ask a first-year politics student).

It's a complicated but never-endingly fascinating world, Misop, in which it is difficult to easily slot everybody in your simplistic schema.

Joe

Mr O,

I have an angel on one shoulder.
And a devil on the other.
I'm also deaf in one ear(smile).

Dear Joe,

Well said.

Opinion,

All Indian officers speak English, whatever Army they're in or attached to.
English is one of the official languages of India.

Is Mise,

It was meant as a joke.

Like saying "LOUDmouth is a very smart and knowledgeable person." It is a statement specifying an incongruous relationship. It's a joke.

LOUDmouth & Foxy,

I think you have missed the point.

When things go bad people will start pointing the finger of blame at others. And guess what, it will be you they will be pointing at.

I wouldn't like to be in your shoes.

Mr O,

When things go wrong normal people don't usually
go about finger-pointing. They help each other
because they're all in it together. As we are
at present in Victoria.

Foxy,

You have your head in the clouds.

I just saw a news item saying China will refuse to withdraw from the South China Sea and is preparing to back up its words with force.

This is going to be interesting. Personally I think there will be a Mexican standoff between China and the US and its Indo-Pacific allies. And we will all hang on to the edge of our seats to see who will make the first move.

If it goes down this path it will be interesting to see then how multiculturalism stands up or if it even survives.

Hey Foxy,

"They help each other because they're all in it together."

How many thousands have been trying to cross borders to escape this 'all in it together in Victoria thing' Foxy?

"When things go wrong normal people don't usually go about finger-pointing."

Funny, I find that just as often that's exactly what they do.
So much so that it's human nature.

Happy Birthday, hope you had a great day.

Dear AC,

I can only speak about my own experiences.
Not for all Victorians of course. And, as
always there will be those that will want to
run at the first sign of trouble. There will
be those who will finger-point instead of
act to improve their lot. That too is human
nature, I guess.

Thank you for the Birthday Wishes.
I did have a great day - quiet, but nevertheless great.

Armchair Critic,

Foxy is worried because she knows that a confrontation with China over the South China Sea is coming and she is afraid that it will topple her beloved multicultural edifice.

How so Mr O?

China is just one ethnicity in Australia.

Amazing how Mr O claims to know what Foxy thinks.

Foxy doesn't know Mr O at all. Nor really cares to
know him.

Correcting someone when they're wrong is fine, but
not when you are the one who's wrong.

Tsk, tsk.

Foxy,

I can work out what goes through your mind from what you post.

It's just one of the advantages of being smart. Let's just say I have developed a knack of working things out. A simple consequence of what I am.

BTW. Did you come up with an ending for my poetic joke? Hint: It's a one liner.

YAWN.

I suspect the elite global industrialists had a fair influence on the development of the concept of Multiculturalism and it's political repercusions. Both capitalism and communism are global industrially based systems rather than local systems close to the people.

It's interesting to muse on the catch call of the environmental movement "think globally act locally" in this context. Maybe this implies that local people should do the work but the experts should do the thinking. Jungian holisticism.

This morning I received a news article from the UK, which stated that new laws are proposed in the UK to ban teaching children in one's home Christianity, as it is to be considered "Hate Speech".

Josephus,

And about bloody time!

I don't know how you guys have managed to get away with it for so long.

Gee it is hard to write about multiculturalism, especially when my argument will call for reduced chinese and indian immigration while maintaining my position I am not racist.

But, so be i

Chris,

Do do live in Sydney?

No MR O,

too poor and smart to live there.

I am a country bumpkin in Albury Wodonga.

Chris,

Have you been to Sydney recently?

If yes, how would you describe its demographic? I reckon it is akin to Singapore.

Dear Chris,

I wouldn't knock Albury-Wodonga. Had the best Conference
there one year - a while back, the best New Year's Eve
Ball ever. And let's not forget my old stomping ground
of Charles Sturt Uni. Can't beat that!

To Chris Lewis-

Gee it is hard to write about multiculturalism, especially when my argument will call for reduced chinese and indian immigration while maintaining my position I am not racist.

Answer-

Don't you think this conflict is intentional by those that seek power at your expense?
For me I don't see any way than to just accept the accusation as being a racist- but understanding that everyone else is too- but that doesn't mean that I engage in genocide. That's more than I can say of those that accuse me.

To me the Chinese and Indian immigration situations relate more to over-population than most. I suspect that the national elites sponsor a high population for plausible deniability in expansion.

You have to expect that these countries are seeking power rather than stability beyond their borders.

Foxy,

yes, I like Albury. Has most facilities and a lot less people.

And great scenery around us,

CM, I think a country must always do what is best to preserve its way of life.

For me, someone who likes our multi-ethnic character, it should always be about the numbers.

Whether we like it or not, there is always a risk with very large minorities.

For myself, to assume all is ok, is simply not good enough.

Yes, I would agree that government is increasingly pretty useless on the issue because they have been simply relying on large numbers of immigrants to boost our GDP.

CM,

So ...... the one-child policy in China between 1979 and 2016 was actually a devious ploy to give the impression that they actually had a one-child policy ? That the demographic impacts of one-child-per-family (or less) would be countered by, perhaps, a hidden population of several hundred million who meanwhile were being encouraged to have as any children as humanly possible ?

Can you try to imagine the impacts of one child, generation after generation, whereby - currently - each child has two parents and four grandparents to themselves ? That China will have enormous difficulties from now on trying to persuade people - themselves from indulgent, one-child families - to have more than one child, or even have children, or even get married at all ? So their population will decline quickly after, say, 2060, perhaps by half by 2100.

You could try:

http://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth

If you search this site for any references to China and its population growth, you may find that its birth rate is about to level off, then decline - so that, in a generation or so, total population will also decline.

As for India, its birth rate is also declining, particularly as women gain more education (you don't understand that link between women's fertility and education ? Never mind).

The population of Africa as a whole will continue to grow healthily, perhaps tripling by 2100, while the population of the rest of the world will follow Europe and Japan's lead and slowly decline.

The only thing boosting Australia's population is immigration - immigrants tend to be much younger than average and have their kids here. Your grandkids will probably inter-marry with the children of immigrants. Probably from Africa. Beautiful kids :)

Joe

Fuzzy Micro statistics to distract from the Macro-

Fact China has the largest population in the world- who is responsible- China.

Fact India will have the largest population in the world- who is responsible- India.

CM,

And you're asserting that they'll all live forever ?

Population is a moving feast - people are born, people die. The rates of change of both of those can change, depending on birth control methods, women's education and ce ployment opportunities, wars, pandemics and certainly government policies.

China had a one-child policy for more than a generation, 36-37 years. It massively skewed the population towards male over-representation, which is not conducive to increasing the birth rate. As you may know, there were reports of female babies being killed and fed to pigs, etc. Regardless of their truth, it meant that the potential for China to rapidly boost its population have been, perhaps fatally, undermined.

Single children tend to have either one kid or no kids at all, they're used to being the focus in their own lives. So it will be with China. The population there may not fall rapidly yet, given that people will be living longer due to better health services. But sooner or later, after maybe one generation, they will hit that wall, and the population, like that in Europe, Japan, South Korea, the US, etc., will start to fall, without immigration continually boosting it - and, in turn, mixing it.

India may take another generation. And Africa another couple of generations again.

Joe

Why do people say 'Albury Wodonga'?

Why do people say that?
I've never been around those parts, but it sounds a bit retarded.
Is it one town or two?
Do you live in Albury or do you live in Wodonga?
They're not even in the same state.
Lets compare it with a different one.
Tweed Heads AND Coolangatta

Nobody who ever lived there ever said they came from 'Tweed Heads Coolangatta'
They said they came from Tweed Heads;
Or they said they came from Coolangatta.

What sort or weird logic do you lot have going on down there?

Armchair Critic.

Yes, my mistake, stating Albury-Wodonga, is a pretty serious thing to get upset about.

Me very sorry about saying Albury Wodonga.

AC & Chris,

Going to high school in Wagga in the fifties, there was that natural rivalry with Albury. Back in those days, I think Wodonga would have been just a little village, and Victorian besides. So of course, we just hated Albury and everything it stood for, and I suppose vice versa. Red and black, what wussy colours are they ?!

Even more reason now to despise that back-water.

Joe

I live in city of Wodonga, but prefer Albury.

Armchair Critic,

Albury-Wodonga is a twin city straddling the Murray
River. Albury on the NSW side and Wodonga
on the Victorian side - on the South bank.
For travel purposes the city is one and is a
gateway to Beechworth, Bright, and so on.

I spent a few years there studying at Charles Sturt University
and always thought of the place as one city. No big deal!

And don't forget, they share the great Hume Weir - with its fantastic (and very hard to catch) Brown and Rainbow Trout populations.

Good enough reason for a visit.
But, forget the Trout Farm - farmed trout aren't a patch on wild trout.
I feel sorry for anyone who has not tried a wild trout, barbecued wrapped in al-foil with a few slices of lemon.
Brilliant red/pink flesh and stunning unique taste, derived from the wild trout's natural diet of crustacea.
They don't feed 'farmed' trout on yabbies, just some grey pellets - so the farmed fish have a grey innocuous flesh - unless artificially 'dyed' and 'flavoured' to make them slightly 'authentic'.

Let us go down
To the lake again,
To the rippling bottomless green
As near immense as the Summer sky,
And let our cares fly free.

Dear Saltpetre,

You're making me absolutely drool.

Hey Chris Lewis,

"Me very sorry about saying Albury Wodonga."

I was just trying to understand, because well I was curious.
Many people refer to this area as 'Albury Wodonga' not just you.
- So I thought I'd ask what it was all about.

This is just, well you know, the kind of pointless tidbits of information that you keep stuffed in the vault of useless information somewhere way way back in your brain cavity.

No big deal and sorry if I offended your locality.

Armchair Critic,

Nothing to be sorry about. I can see why it sounds strange given they are two cities governed by two govts.

The coronavirus situation, with strict border controls, does complicate the concept of both cities being one location.

I do like Albury though, much more than Wodonga. I am talking about the city area where the main shops and eateries are.

Between the two cities, it is a very anglo-celtic place in terms of ethnicity, at least when compared to Melbourne.

There seems to be a lot of Thai restaurants, and I think the Indian presence increasing.

Chris,

How would you define the demographic of Sydney?

I only go there occasionally. last time 2016

Around Central and a few suburbs, very Chinese.

Around places I like, such as manly, bondi and coogee, much less Asians.

I suppose different groups have different interests.

It was like my NY visit 2016. Very multicultural, but at the NFL stadium, very European

Chris,

Would you agree with me that the demographic of Sydney is similar to that of Singapore?

Misopinionated,

My god, what a moron. Sydney's ethnic mix, according to Wikipedia:

At the 2016 census, the most commonly nominated ancestries were:

English (27%)
Australian (25%)
Chinese (10.8%)
Irish (9.2%)
Scottish (6.8%)
Italian (4.5%)
Indian (4.3%)
Lebanese (3.5%)
German (2.7%)
Greek (2.6%)
Vietnamese (2.3%)
Filipino (2.3%)
Indigenous (1.5%)
Korean (1.4%)
Maltese (1.3%)

All on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sydney

So 68 % British (including Welsh, probably and improperly included under 'English') and Australian.

10.8 % Chinese, i.e. Mandarin-, Cantonese-, Hakka-, Teochiew-, etc. -speakers of Chinese languages, from China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Central Asia, etc..

Not to be confused in tiny minds, Misop, with Koreans, Japanese, Filipinos/Filipinas, Burmese, Thai, Cambodians, Hazara, Uighurs, etc., etc.

But all that means nothing to you ? Stick with your pig-ignorance then.

Joe

LOUDmouth,

I wasn't asking you. You are not in a position to prove anything.

Mr O,

Actually Joe is in a position to answer anyone's
questions on this forum. It is a discussion forum
after all and you often jump in Mr O - when the
questions are not directed at you either - so
knock off the instructions. Practice it yourself.

Thanks, Foxy.

I'm glad that sanity, intelligence and humanity can sometimes prevail over dip-sticks.

Joe

Loudmouth,

The reason I said you are not in a position to prove anything is simply because you do not have any credentials to support your proofs.

Misop[inionated,

Unlike you, I have the sense to look up Wikipedia on occasion. You should try it, especially if they bring out a Child's Version.

Joe

LOUDmouth,

For people at your level who don't have any credentials Wikipedia is a good source of general information and learning but you need to be wary of its accuracy.

Mr O, no, I doubt Sydney would be anything like Singapore.

Joe, I think Mr O is having you on. He loves hearing the opinion of others.

He does make me laugh though, more than any other poster. And laughter is a good thing.

Misanthropic,

So how would anyone demonstrate their credentials on OLO, including you ? Maybe cite their favourite lecturers ? If you have ever been within cooee of a university, you might probably be able to do that, at least in relation to current staff. Actually Wikipedia might help you there.

How far back do you want to go ? Twenty years ? Forty years ? Sixty years ?

Joe

Chris,

Have you been to Singapore?

LOUDmouth,

In a way you are lucky because there is no need for you to demonstrate credentials.

No, but I know that Singapore is mostly Chinese 76%, malay 15% and Indians 7%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Singapore

Nothing like Sydney.

Misanthrope,

Pot - kettle. Why should anybody in their right mind think that you had any credentials whatsoever ?

Care to cite any of your favourite lecturers ?

I well remember Geoffrey Dutton teaching English at Adelaide Uni in the early sixties. Spell-binding.

Keith Hancock in economics in the seventies at Flinders; later Vice-Chancellor. I think I had Judith Sloan as a very young tutor there.

The wonderful Grahame Hugo in social geography, demography and South-East Asia, and my dear friend Fay Gale in Aboriginal Studies of all sorts at Adelaide Uni in the eighties. Both now sorely missed.

So many others, some brilliant teachers.

Joe

Chris,

I've been to Singapore twice. The demographic is quite similar to Sydney. I would call both Asian cities.

In answer to Mr Opinion.

There are certain shopping centres in Australian CBD's where British Australian's seem conspicuously absent where this wasn't the case twenty years before. Often this is a result of the massive visa factories of the foreign student education industry sadly initiated by John Howard in the nineties and then continued by both major parties. We the British Australian people need to find a third way in politics in Australia. The policy of "Divide and rule" has disenfranchised the British Australian people.

Yes Socialism is still going strong at Flinders University since Loudmouth was there....

http://www.facebook.com/Socialist-Alternative-Flinders-Uni-1680527602012760/

http://www.spiritofeureka.org/index.php/news-a-articles/273-history-of-the-1974-flinders-uni-student-occupation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Hancock_(historian)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Sloan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeme_Hugo

If you travel by train in Sydney, you will find persons from Chatswood and Hurstville Stations are Chinese, Bankstown are Lebanese, Eastwood Epping are Korean as the majority of commuters. Penrith, Mt Druitt Australian.

Josephus,

What you have just described is that on average 3 in 4 cultures in Sydney are Asian, which I would say is very similar to the demographic in Singapore.

This has been brought about by the Asianisation program (Multiculturalism is the preferred term because of the racial connotations of using the term 'Asianisation') instituted under Hawke in the 1980s. Geoffrey Blainey challenged Hawke about doing this and as I understand lost his job at ANU because he advised Hawke against it.

From my visits to Melbourne I would also call Melbourne an Asian city as well.

Misanthropic,

What you would have noticed too is that the Chinese population is overwhelmingly female, and very young. All Chinese all over the world must be like that: plenty of them, female and young.

And young Chinese women don't like driving, that's why you see them on the buses.

Obviously you do your observing around Central Station, near the unis, Broadway, the Sydney CBD, where Chinese are most representative: what you see around Central is typical of all of Sydney, maybe all of Australia.

And if someone looks Chinese, they must be Chinese: what else could they be ?

So we're about to be over-run by young Chinese women. Oh, would that I were fifty years younger :)

Joe

LOUDmouth,

Sydney is definitely an Asian city. And I think Melbourne also fits the bill.

Of course this is a general cultural description.

And of course people like you, me and Foxy are now Asian because we are part of an Asian existence, whether you like it or not.

Misanthope,

Why wouldn't we like it ? Your reactionary xenophobia is showing :)

Joe

Mr O,

Asian existence?

In our Melbourne suburb we have
a very diverse neighbourhood. Diverse food. Diverse
customs. It is not an "Asian"existence by any stretch
of the imagination. Perhaps you need to take your
blinkers off - and go out more often. I have been to
Sydney not so long ago. I grew up in Sydney, and
recently attended my mother's funeral there. I did
not see what you seem to be so obsessed with.

Which part of Sydney do you come from. That might
explain things.

Hi Foxy,

Perhaps he lives under the escalator at Central :)

Joe

Joe,

I'm not sure through what kind of eyes Mr O is
looking or why his obsession with Asian people.
Perhaps he was rejected by an Asian girl or her
family, and has never got over it.
Or maybe he lost a promotion at work to a person
of Asian descent - or a job? Who knows?

Foxy & LOUDmouth,

None of those things.

I just call it how I see it.

I think the problem lies with the two of you. You don't want to accept the reality that your world has been Asianised and you cling to a multicultural fantasy because you think it connects you to your roots.

You need to let go of the past and embrace your new Asian identity.

Mr O, I don't think the world is about ethnic identity, at least in most Western countries which are now multi-ethnic.

But, it is about cultural identity for some.

I see myself as an Australian and Westerner

Mr O, what you fail to appreciate, is that many people of Asian backgrounds, also see themselves as Australians.

Here at my work, I talk to many young Indians, and they confirm their feeling of being Australian.

I love it when they tell me they reject the silly aspects of their Indian culture, still somewhat evident amongst their parents.

Who gives a ….what ethnic background one is.

I am merely interested in how they think.

Posted by loudmouth2

So we're about to be over-run by young Chinese women. Oh, would that I were fifty years younger :)

Joe

Answer-

So Joe Loudmouth seems to be saying we should give up partnering with someone like ourselves from our own culture for the chance of irresponsible sex with someone who has little in common? That seems like a recipe for a successful relationship in an era of massive levels of failed relationships. I must admit that feminism hasn't caught up with many Asian cultures as yet (maybe it won't) and that is probably a draw card. Feminism the decline in religiousity in daily life seems to correlate with breakdown in relationships. Strange that females are psychologically considered more agreeable on the "Big Five".

I would suggest to young males that they should find a female partner that they have common interests and background over physical attraction- someone they can be friends with. This will have the biggest chance of achieving what is generally considered as happiness. It may not be perfect but it's realistic and achievable.

Chris,

Your tale of Asians not wanting to be Asians is quite alarming.

You just have to tell them that Australia has been Asianised and they just have to get used to it. Tell them that if they don't want to be Asian then they should go back to India.

I think Foxy is in need of a bit of psychotherapy so I am going to post some typical scenes of Melbourne to help her come to grips with her Asianess. A few stark images of the world she lives in should do the trick e.g. people gathered outside Flinders St Station etc.

Favouring Asian's over White British Australian's is just a different form of favouritism (or racism).

I remember an interview with John Howard at his old school and him saying- there's a lot of Asian Kids around today....

Canem Malum,

And if you hadn't turned around and walked away you would have heard little Johnny Howard finish what he was saying: " ........... and one day when I grow up I am going to be Australia's first Asian prime minister."

John Howard: a visionary.

To Mr Opinion-

Yes probably..
Paul Keating from memory also talked about Australia being an Asian Nation.
You also mentioned Bob Hawke.
I didn't mind (yard glass) Hawky or (control) Keating- but looking back they did a lot of harm.

Foxy,

I found this recent image of a Melbourne street scene.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-16/people-wear-masks-in-melbourne-cbd-1/12060126?nw=0

No, it is not Singapore. It is Melbourne.

Mr Father was also of the mind frame that you should
marry your own kind. H made it quite clear that if I
was to marry a Non-Lithuanian - I would not get a
big wedding. (joke). He wanted someone of the same
background, same religion, with common interests -
that would mean a blending of our families.
A good and lasting foundation. Culture is indeed
important. As the values we pass on to our children
and grand-children.

As for "prioritising Asians" ? Not sure who's doing
that - except perhaps Mr O, and his obsession with
them. He seems to see them every where. Even Flinders
Street Station? Goodness me. They could be on their
way to work - they do work for a living, or going to
Uni. They do that as well - or even - prior to
lockdown - going out to restaurants, theatres, movies.
They're allowed. It's a free country. Besides, chances
are their parents are paying for most of it.

Mr O,

Well you've really shot yourself in the foot
haven't you. Thanks for the Melbourne street
scene - but hey - if you go ahead and count
just the five Asian people with masks in the front.
Then count the number of non- Asians behind them -
guess who out numbers who.

Shame on you. You obsession sucks.

And No - it's not Singapore. It definitely IS Melbourne.

Suck it up!

Foxy,

I can see a lot of psychotherapy install for you.

Obviously your rejection of your Asianess can be traced back to when you were a young woman. You can't lock yourself in the past with this monocultural madness you have just told us about. You need to get out from under the donna and embrace your Asianess.

Foxy,

All of the people in the street scene I just posted have accepted their Asianess. It is you who is confusing Asian and non-Asian with your subconscious ideas of monocultural self.

Keep looking at the street scene and keeping counting because it will eventually become clear that they are all both Melburnians and Asians.

It's all part of the treatment Foxy.

Mr O,

Try this on for size.

It is all part of the treatment:

http://www.dreamstime.com/royalty-free-stock-image-melbourne-street-scene-aus-apr-swanston-s-have-population-employment-growth-international-image40307746

cont'd ...

And don't thank me.

It's pro bono this time.

Mr O,

Here is something especially for you:

http://www.quora.com/As-a-white-Australian-are-you-worried-that-Melbourne-and-Sydney-are-becoming-predominantly-Asian-as-it-becomes-increasingly-cosmopolitan

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/eab615b67882787fbcbc6f895538e18a?width=650

This doesn't look like Melbourne CBD does it?

I don't think it's too much for Foxy's father to expect that he can relate to his daughters husband? Especially if he wants to continue to have a strong relationship with his daughter. Foxy said she was Catholic so she probably has much more in common with British Australian's than Asian people. Her husband and his parents may not feel comfortable at the Lithuanian club but at least they can all catch up on Sunday at Catholic church on occasion even though English are Anglican.

But there is a conflict if Foxy's family wants to stay in Australia between their family's culture and that of their host culture. I would prefer to see less conflicted people.

Maybe Foxy was luckier than most and was able to navigate through this conflict.

It reminds me of Socrates accusation to his friend Cephalus in The Republic that the reason he was at peace wasn't because he had led a virtuous life but because he was rich.

"For if all men are sensible and good tempered, old age is easy enough to bear: if not, youth as well as age is a burden. I was delighted by what he said, and tried to lead him on by saying 'I'm afraid that most pepople don't agree with what you say, Cephalus, but think that you carry you years lightly because of your wealth. For they say that the rich have many consolations.'"

Not everyone can be rich but as the Japanese philosopher Murata Juko said everyone can be virtuous by practicing the tea ceremony. British people have their own virtue and ritual that is worth protecting.

The Industrialists of Pandora are only skin deep and are happy to sacrifice the heart.

Some have forgotten where their heart is.

Our culture is being replaced- some say Communism is inevitable

I may have got confused with Sen no Rikyū (千利休, 1522 – April 21, 1591) on tea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sen_no_Riky%C5%AB

Just to set the record straight folks - guess what -
My husband's ancestry is also Lithuanian.
We met as students at university.
He is also a Roman Catholic. And
I can assure you our families are very much at home
in any of the Lithuanian Clubs around Australia

According to "There Once Was a World" before 1348 Lithuania was a feudal and multicultural society. The royal family was pagan, but the nobility was not. Jews, Muslims, pagans, Christians and others made up the nobility. The pope sent emissaries to convert Lithuania to Catholicism, but they were rejected. The Lithuanian royalty hoped they would be left in peace. The Teutonic Knights mounted crusades to bring Lithuania to heel, but they were repelled.

Finally, in 1348 a royal wedding between the royal houses of Lithuania and Poland, the conversion of the royal family of Lithuania to Christianity and the subsequent union of Lithuania and Poland marked the end of multicultural Lithuania. I mourn the end of multicultural Lithuania.

David F said-

I mourn the end of multicultural Lithuania.

Answer-

I see Multiculturalism as Cosmopolitanism. Some people like it- some people don't. I see it as a difference in philosophy or opinion between Parochialism and Cosmopolitanism. Just as some people liked England some liked the cosmopolitan Mediterranean lifestyle. They are not wrong or right but differences of value. I believe that a community should be able to live either way but it should be left up to the people within the communities to decide. Sadly certain ideologies seem to demonize localistic Parochialism usually for their own self serving benefit.

Cosmopolitanism is synonymous with open borders and free markets. Free Markets have their place. But you don't sell the farm to buy bread. In history those places that lived close to the sea probably travelled much further than those that lived inland. Lithuania being located next to the Baltic Sea and surrounded by a dense conglomeration of many countries and principalities due to the natural defensive formations would see the world in a very different way to other more remote and isolated people.

Certain ideologies are pathologically aquisitionistic- global industrial- and attempting to grind into the ground any dissent.

The Mediterranean has been the cosmopolitan centre of civilization for thousands of years. With the advent of advanced transport capabilities in the last one hundred years the world has been moving blindly to global cosmopolitanism. Rather than be blind we should open ours eyes and realise that we have a choice and so do others to live the way they choose. Global totalitarianist cosmopolitanism will cause suffering on a scale of the communist disasters.

It's strange that those pushing a Cosmopolitan philosophy at the large scale are pushing family values in their own sphere.

In a way cosmopolitanism is just another form of elitism. There I go demonizing cosmopolitanism... another paradox of the human condition.

Contrary to the views of Joe Loudmouth it appears Foxy has made my point. Admittedly it's just one case in point.

Kudos for Foxy's marriage (and the Lithuanian community) lasting the distance- unlike so many others.

Hopefully British Australian communities can re-emerge.

Dear David F.,

Vilnius is interesting in that it is a city that
has been part of many more histories than just
Lithuania's and many more people than just Lithuanians
call it home.

The history of Vilnius involves other cultures entering
the city, as well as Lithuanians (willingly or unwillingly)
going to other countries. As a result, Lithuanian culture
there has a distinct global multicultural aspect.

There are many communities that are part of Vilnius and
add their own traditions and customs to the Lithuanian
mix. Some are Polish, some are Russian, some are German,
some are French - but all are Lithuanian.

A visit to the city just may surprise.

CM,

No, I don't think so. Lithuanian -Australians should be allowed to marry Lithuanian-Australians. Or anybody else they damn-well like. And they're still Australians.

My bet is that Foxy's children haven't all married Lithuanian-Australians. And if they did, they would all still be Australians. Greek-Australians marry Greek-Australians. Italian-Australians marry Italian-Australians. Aboriginal Australians marry Aboriginal Australians. And they're all Australian, not one tiniest bit less than you and whoever you married.

It's called life. Get used to it.

Joe

Hi Joe,

You're right. Our family is a broad mix indeed.
From Lithuanian -
It goes to British, to Scottish,
onto Swedish, German, Russian, and who knows what
the future will bring.

Canem Malum,

Today one in three marriages in Australia are inter-cultural.

Your hope of a British Australian community re-emerging is
rather slim especially when you stop to consider that
there are only 1.2 million UK citizens who live in
Australia out of a total of 25.5 million people - which is
Australia's total population.

Even in the UK inter-cultural marriages are the norm.
Yet all consider themselves as British.

Foxy,

Below is another short psychotherapy session to assist you in recognising your Asianess:

http://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/how-does-australia-manage-population-growth

Study this image of a Melbourne street scene (I think it is Flinders) for several minutes then close your eyes and say to yourself "We are all Asian now." I suggest doing this about half a dozen times.

Misopinionated,

You may well be Asian, although I doubt it. I assume that, like Foxy and me, you are a non-Asian Australian living - like the rest of us - and forever - in close proximity to Asia.

Maybe going to school in Darwin influenced my attitudes - up there, one is closer to Singapore than to Melbourne. Darwin is probably the most cosmopolitan, happily mixed, vibrant city I've ever lived in. And it's much more so now than sixty years ago. If I had my time over again, I'd be up there like a shot.

Joe

LOUDmouth,

Looks like you are in need of a bit of psychotherapy yourself.

You and Foxy just have to give up on this illusion you have of not being part of the great Asian nation that Australia has become.

We are all Asian now and you and Foxy need to come to terms with it.

It was Geoffrey Blainey who pointed out in the 1980s that multiculturalism in Australia was a subterfuge for Asianisation and that the road Australia was taking would lead to us being an Asian nation. And he has now been shown to be correct.

Unless of course you are prejudice against being Asian: Is this what you are saying?

Loudmouth, look into the picture and embrace your Asianess.

Mr O,

Seriously, you need to stop or I will recommend to
Graham to have you banned from this forum.

Your
racist attitude is getting out of hand. You keep
repeating the same message over and over again
with your - derisive racist clickbait.
You probably feel that you can get away with it because of
your anonymity. Well Graham knows who you are. And he
will deal with you.

Also -

Kindly do not address any more posts to me. I do not
want to engage in any further inter-action with you.

Misop,

It may happen, but it will be some time before Australia becomes predominantly an Asian nation. I don't really see anything wrong about that. It's probably a sort of historical destiny, since we're geographically closer to Asia than to any other continent.

Of course, by then, Asia itself may be much more mixed than now. Beautiful.

Joe

Dear Joe,

Do me a favour - and just ignore Mr O, from now
on. Don't give him a platform. He gets off on
that. Have you noticed that nobody responds to
him on this forum. Let us not do it as well.
Let him talk to himself. It will get rather
boring after a while. He needs an audience.
Don't give him one.

Misop,

Of course, your kids, if you ever have any, or their kids, will very likely marry people with at least some Asian background, from that immensely varied gene-pool, varying ever more so into the future.

Perhaps their generation will skip the racism gene and they will go on to live very happy lives, and raise THEIR kids to marry the next generation with Asian backgrounds. Plenty of Australians already have.

Come to think of it, my dear wife had a Chinese gr-gr-gr-grandfather, probably Hokkien, who came out here to SA in the 1850s for the copper-mining. That may be why she was so beautiful, and our kids too. It obviously wasn't the mongrel-British admixture, not that I've got anything much against a mongrel-British admixture.

Joe

Dear Foxy,

But I can't resist poking a stick in the mindless ants' nest that is the strange mind of Misopinionated :(

On Classic FM today, they played Rachmaninoff's 2nd Symphony: at my wife's funeral, they played the Third Movement, the bit that Eric Carmen acknowledged in a couple of his songs (All By Myself, Never Gonna Fall In Love Again), at the end of the service. Two hundred people in the chapel, and another two hundred outside, heard Rachmaninoff probably for the first time. She would have loved that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKdqDrlB3CQ

Love,

Joe

Dear Joe,

Fair enough - regarding Mr O.

Your wife must have been quite a lady.

Lucky you. Lucky her.

And wonderful children.

Foxy and LOUDmouth,

At least I have made you realise that you live in an Asian nation.

All Australians have to come to terms with the fact that Asianisation has reached its zenith and they are all part of an Asian culture.

And the two of you can give yourselves a pat on the back for helping it happen.

In fact I think it would now be an appropriate time to change the country's name from Australia to Austrasia in line with this great achievement and start calling ourselves Austrasians.

Misop,

If you knew your history, you would remember that Austrasia was already the early name for a part of Belgium, I think part of the kingdom of Lotharia (Lorraine), around 1000 AD. What are they teaching in primary school these days ?!

No, I don't think we've reached Peak Asianisation yet, not by a long shot. The good days are still well in front of us - well, in front of our descendants :)

Joe

Dear Joe,

36.1% in the 2016 census identified as English.

Only 12.25% of the total population of Australia
have claimed Asian ancestry.

Do the Math.

LOUDmouth,

I most certainly did know about the medieval realm of Austrasia but since it no longer exists we might as well claim it.

Yes, do the math. 12% eh! Who would have guessed? Especially in an Asian nation like Australia. I suppose Foxy just won't ever let go of her monocultural beginnings and embrace her Asians. I suppose there will always be those who cannot accept reality and want to live in the past.

Misopinionated,

You took the words right out of my mouth:

"I suppose there will always be those who cannot accept reality and want to live in the past."

Joe

LOUDmouth,

Well you're definitely not referring to me because I have accepted that Australia is an Asian nation. One only needs to take a stroll around Sydney or Melbourne to see it.

It's poor Foxy who doesn't want to let go of the past and embrace her Asianess.

12% of Australia is Asian eh ............ who would have guessed?

Martin Luther King Jr. "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

With exodus/diaspora to the 'developed world' increasing at an exponential rate, only relatively 'closed' nations are currently able to resist the global propulsion towards an overall 'multicultural' world.

Maybe this will be a better world, a wall-to-wall heterogeneous world, where age-old feuds and grievances will evaporate, where a multitude of cultures will not only be tolerated but celebrated, where 'Peace on Earth to All Men' may finally be realized.

Maybe, thereby, the UN may finally be able to evolve into the institution it was really meant to be, and the 'closed nations' will be in the minority - and may then be brought to account for their human rights and foreign policy deficiencies, and be made to reform.

Through welcoming integration, and through broadened education, the 'Brave New World' so many have dreamed of may finally be realized, without drama, and without conflict, for the benefit of all.

Cooperation must eventually become the future of humankind - unless those bent on domination manage to destroy the planet first.

Human or Animal - the crossroads approach.

Foxy & LOUDmouth,

While we're doing the math I think we should take the opportunity to let everyone know that both of you are dyed in the wool socialists who want the world to be exactly how you want it to be.

I found a street scene from Sydney for you:

http://www.catholicweekly.com.au/sydney-goes-from-rowdy-to-reverent/

Again, the same recurring scenario. You need to accept the reality of our Asian nation.

Now, give us a big smile for the cameras.

Misanthrope,

So ........ you're suggesting that a high proportion of Catholics in Australia are Asian ? That Catholics tend to support the CCP ?

Perhaps a minority of Catholics in Australia are Asian. A minority of Australians are Catholic.

So a minority of a minority of a minority of Australians are Asian. I welcome them all as fellow-Australians.

So what's your point ?

Joe

LOUDmouth,

One cannot tell from the photo If any of the people in it are Catholic.

To me they are just a bunch of typical Sydneysiders watching a parade irrespective of what the parade is about. Like most people they are stopping to watch the parade out of interest.

This is Sydney 2020 and we are all part of this great Asian nation built on several decades of Asianisation (aka Multiculturalism).