There's been continued postings on this forum from some
people who see China's rise as a global power a
threat to Australian white identity and our political
system.

There are new flows of people, ideas, and capital, between
China and Australia. Our cities are certainly changing.
Apartments are taking over many of our cities. People
are questioning the need to adapt to this new reality.

Anti Asian sentiment appears to be on the rise, especially
during this recent COVID-19 pandemic.

I thought it might be interesting to get people's reactions
to this and what they see (if anything) happening around
them. Should we be concerned? And is China really such a
threat to us and our way of life?

We should remember that the Chinese have been here for
generations. Why the sudden fears now?

Sorry folks - the title of this discussion has
been dropped, ( I presume in error).

It should have read - "CHINA - An Asian Invasion?"

Or words to that effect

Hi Foxy,

I'll be happy to be the first to respond with this article by Stan Grant today:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-05/china-and-us-on-collision-course-lessons-from-history/12415316

Mr O,

Thank You for Stan Grant's link.

It does sound ominous.

The Lowy Institute Poll was released today (Sunday 5th July) and
it containes a mixed set of findings on Australia's relationship
with its largest trading partner - China.

They tell us that most Australians, that is - approx. 77%, see
China as more of an economic partner to Australia than a
military threat (15%), and that about an equal number (73%)
want Australia to develop closer relations with China as it grows
in influence.

So there you go. A mixed bag indeed. And to make things even
more complicated we're told that according to the poll - 70%
of Australians say the government allows "too much" investment
in Australian residential real estate with China. They resent
the prices of homes being so high.

Although perceptions of a military threat paid by China appear
to have eased this year, yet some say that it could be likely that
China will become a military threat in the next 20 years.
And others saying that Australia should be firm to resist
China's aggression in our region, and threats, and to stand firm.

Australia's views on China appear to be very mixed.
It all depend on who you speak to.

Foxy,

The poll figures you have cited tell me that most of the people polled are thinking with their pockets and are willing to turn a blind eye to Chinese aggression and threats as long as they can make a buck.

I think we saw an example of this when Andrew Forrest was able to get his CCP mate into Greg Hunt's press conference and got him up on the podium to lecture Australia's politicians about the consequences of bad mouthing the Chinese.

I would also like to see a detailed breakdown of the people polled to see if there was bias in the sample group.

For example, on the day of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941 there were 420,000 people in the Hawaiian Islands of which 142,000 were Japanese (33%). What if a poll had been taken a few weeks before the attack asking if America should develop closer ties with Japan and 77% of respondents replied YES because every Japanese respondent would have thought it to be disloyal to their ancestral homeland to say NO.

Do you follow what I'm getting at? Did a disproportionately number of Chinese respond to the poll vis-a-vis other ethnic groups?

One can always put bias into a survey if one is looking for a particular answer to a problem. You need to be careful when reading statistics.

Mr O,

Of course surveys and polls cannot be taken as gospel.
But they are used regularly by researchers and the
Lowy Institute is a reputable organisation. Their
polls are often said to be accurately representative
of the population.

Anyway, it simply showed the mixed bag that is out there
regarding China. And I would assume that this was a pretty
accurate reading.

Foxy,

Do you know what percentage of the survey sample was Chinese? I bet you don't and I doubt if the Lowy Institute would ever tell you.

Take the poll results with a grain of salt Foxy.

Keep in mind Frank Lowy is a multibillionaire with vested interests in global economic and financial structures that are linked to sovereign states outside of Australia. I think it would be in his interest to have poll results that support his business interests.

Dear Foxy,

While I absolutely condemn any anti-Asian sentiments, China is at present, just like Nazi Germany back then, the most belligerent and dangerous enemy of both its own people and the rest of the world.

While we MUST be terribly concerned about China, this has nothing to do with ethnicity or them being Asian. Take Taiwan for example: same race, but what a difference, indeed Taiwan are our friends!

What the world is facing, far from being history's first (take Egypt's Pharaohs for example), is a monstrous emperor, along with his supporting elite, that aspires to be treated as God and cannot tolerate anyone, anywhere, worshiping another. The stronger he feels, the more he oppresses and tightens the screws against religion, ANY religion other than his own worship: the Buddhists of Tibet, the Falun-Gong, the Uighur Muslims, now the Christians - none may escape his jealousy of their God.

Not only should we, people of faith in God, make economic sacrifices to isolate this monster and his worshiping CCP cult, but even sacrifice our lives if necessary to stop that evil.

For me Australia should set a course of independent non-alignment, tear up the so called ANZUS treaty, expel all foreign troops from Australian shores. We should limit military spending to self defence purposes only. The best defence for Australia is to foster good economic and human relations with the umbrella of nations in our region including China. Non-alignment would bring us respect on the world stage, a voice to be listened to witch has independent opinions, not as some toady of the Americans, as we are seen by many others now.

Mr O, a bit of history; did you know, with the outbreak of war with Japan, the Americans interned people of Japanese ancestry living on the west coast USA. Some couldn't understand why, as many seen themselves as Americans, several generations, some even served in the US army and fought in the war. They didn't do the same with those on the east coast. Just as many Jews in Germany mistakenly thought they would be safe from the NAZI's as they were German, having served in WWI etc. How wrong they were.

BTW; Did you see ScumO' is doubling the cost to students of Arts degrees; while reducing that of the more practical courses.

Paul1405,

There were 142,000 Japanese in Hawaii at the start of the Pacific War.

The US government asked them to show their loyalty to America and about 2,000 enlisted in the US military.

The US government wanted to transport the rest to the mainland but never got around to it. They were interned on the islands for the duration of the war.

After the war only about 60,000 remained in the islands.

Rubbish.

China, under an authoritarian regime, is indeed a threat to humanity in every way.

And the world knows it, hence the growing backlash which should and will escalate into a serious Cold War at best.

Bring it on

Seriously, how can any sane person have a kind view of authoritarian China?

Mr O, master arts scholar and student, please explain why some appear optimistic about China.

I am simply dumbfounded by these soft views.

Chris,

I'm not in the pro-China camp.

I'm the one who is always trying to warn people about the threat that the Chinese pose to Australia.

The people who are not being critical of the Chinese are those who have vested interests in maintaining and alliance albeit trade with China e.g. a certain business magnate who shoved a certain minister off the podium to make room for his CCP mate.

I know you are not.

I just want the soft that support China to show us why we have nothing to fear rather than rely on wishful hopes.

I want the supporters of China to give examples of why the CCP's role in Australia is nothing to be concerned about.

I heard Christine Cunningham on the ABC religion and ethics show yesterday, who appears to have a reasonably balanced view, but I will research her ideas.

I have always had disdain from authoritarian regimes because I "know" what a lack of restraints on power elites will produce.

There are some decent authoritarian states, like Singapore which is also committed to low levels of corruption, but humanity definitely cannot afford the expanding influence of the CCP

Chris,

As I said to Foxy in my first responses, it is the people with vested business and financial interests who want to buddy up with the Chinese.

Unfortunately this has been going on for over 30 years and driven by politicians, bureaucrats and business people, or as you so rightly refer to as the power elite (echoes of C. Wright Mills).

And now they these greedy, dishonest, untrustworthy people have put us all in danger.

What concerned me when starting this discussion was that
it not becomes a tirade against individual Chinese
many of whom have lived here for generations and those
who are recent arrivals also do not necessarily support
the Communist party of China. It's one thing to criticize
the regime but we should be careful not to demonize
individual people.

Of course our government needs to stand up for our values
and way of life. That's a given and it is concerning how
much residential development is taking place in our cities
that is Chinese owned. Our cities are changing with more
and more apartments living.

Thanks, Yuyutsu & Chris.

China may soon reach a demographic peak but is rapidly mechanising and automating its armed forces, and doesn't have to depend on sheer numbers, although obviously they help.

Yes, obviously China is a military threat to Australia and to every country in the region from India around to Japan and across to the mid-Pacific. One major problem for Australia will be the financial inducements that China can offer to small and poor Pacific island nations - I expect China to have military bases somewhere in our region by 2030, Vanuatu or PNG.

It should be pointed out, perhaps as a bit of a non sequitur, that although Japanese-americans were interned during the Second World War and lost property and businesses, there wasn't a single case of espionage by Japanese-Americans, not like with German-Americans; and yes, an entire Japanese-American battalion fought at Monte Cassino. Probably alongside the Maori Battalion from NZ :)

I had hopes at the time of the massacres in Tian An Men that there might be uprisings in Shanghai and Canton - and that Sinkiang and Tibet, and perhaps parts of southern China (which had been part of the Chinese empire for only a few hundred years), could break away. But that's water under the bridge.

Some problems don't have solutions, Mao is supposed to have said. Unless there is some process of democratisation in China, we are stuck with an aggressive totalitarian power, which we will have to resist to the last person. And perhaps by 2030.

Joe

Do you believe in Disneyland, some do.

I will read it again to see what China can teach the West, and pass on to the persecuted people of China.

Great work Christine, and I hope you keep enjoying your visits to China.

Edith Cowan University
Research Online
ECU Publications Post 2013
1-1-2014
Educational Leadership: What Can China Teach The West About
Inclusive Decision Making Practices?
Christine Cunningham
Edith Cowan University, c.cunningham@ecu.edu.au

https://ro.ecu.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1621&context=ecuworkspost2013

I have never attacked Chinese people for being Chinese.

But i will attack anyone who defends the CCP.

Cunningham provides some useful stuff for us critics of the CCP.

"In primary school, all Chinese children are supposed to join the Young Pioneers, a 130-million-strong youth organisation controlled by the Communist Party.

In high school, teachers invite students who achieve highly, academically and morally, to join the Communist Youth League. In university, excellent students are invited to join the Communist Party.

In contrast, Hong Kong students do not study Moral Education and cannot join the Young Pioneers, Youth League or the Communist Party".

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-29/why-chinese-and-hong-kong-students-clash-in-australia/11457846

i thank my parents for brining me to Australia where I (and my daughter) can freely think, think and think.

And we are supposed to be worried about Chinese having better study scores than us. Please don't make me laugh

Foxy,

My criticisms have always been directed at the Chinese nation and its supporters and adherents.

Which of course raises the stakes because what we are in fact talking about is the rise of the Chinese nation-state and the implications that this has for Australia, which is what Stan Grant is also talking about.

let us keep this thread going forever. Most important thread for decades give the real threat the CCP is.

I mean who could be impressed with a CCP that encourages its kids to join a youth group, controlled by the CCP?

My daughter was already an independent thinker at six when she stated she would not do religious studies anymore.

I was proud because she had her own ability to work it out for herself, as we never ridiculed religion in her presence.

If she had liked the subject, i also would have been proud, because she already has an ability to think about the issues.

Poo kids in CCP land, will never have that choice.

And we pathetic Aussies want their money at our universities. I hope the industry collapses, and we get more taiwanese and HK students.

Seriously? Anyone who brings this subject up after all that the CCP has been doing has been in a coma. This is an insult to anyone who has known what the CCP has been up to since the Red Emperor and admirer of Mao Zedong, Xi Jinping took over.

We are not talking about quaint little pigtailed miners and market gardeners who "have been here for generations". We are not talking about Chinese people or China at all. We are talking about the Chinese Communist Party, which controls everything and everyone in China, plus a good number of expatriates spread throughout the world.

This is not a topic to be casually chucked into the ring for discussion by people who don't have a clue. What the CCP is trying to do globally is what it is doing domestically in mainland China and Hong Kong - to Chinese people - keeping them down and keeping them fearful. It's not just in HK where citizens are rebelling against the hated CCP. Only 6.5% of Chinese people are CCP members.

So, let's stop this crap about Sinophobia and racism. Stop talking about China. Start familiarising yourselves with the Chinese Communist Party. Western ideology, Left/Right doesn't count. Two of the best books on the CCP threat have been written by Lefty, Clive Hamilton. Mr. Opinion is a Lefty, as is Chris Lewis; both of whom know what a threat the CCP is to Australia. Until you've read these books (and there are many others by US writers) you don't know crap from clay on this matter.

'Stealth War', Robert Sterling
'Xi Jinping: The Backlash', Richard McGregor
'Hidden Hand', Clive Hamilton
'Silent Invasion' Clive Hamilton
'Bully of Asia', Steven Mosher
'Destined For War', Graham Allison

A few primers for a start. There are truck loads of books on the CCP. There is no excuse for ignorance or naive questions on this serious threat, to not just Australia, but the world.

Yes, ttbn.

if we do not respect the virtues of having a society that is free to think, despite our differences, you have nothing.

It is all about the CCP and the threat it poses for free people, and the goal of being free for others.

Bring the Cold War on, please, please and please.

I bet the West will win.

Mr O,

I am not questioning your valid concern about the Chinese
threat to Australia. I would not have started this discussion
if I was. I am merely expressing my own concern that this
does not progress into something nasty - like the two students
who were bashed recently in Melbourne. We don't want to encourage
negativity towards the Chinese in general - do we?

Hi Chris,

You talk about the poor kids of the CCP. Yes, they undoubtedly
are indoctrinated. Just as the young were in the Soviet
Union. We shouldn't close the doors on them all together.
As students here they can learn a great deal from us and our
way of life. If they were to be exposed to a Western life-style
and see for themselves that the West is not the "enemy"
that it's painted out to be. If they discover for themselves
the truth instead of the lives they are being taught - they
will be harder to indoctrinate and for them to believe what they are being taught.

I believe that our influences are stronger than theirs.

After all look at the changes that have taken place with other
totalitarian regimes. The Berlin Wall came down. The Soviet
regime lost its occupied countries. Who knows what faces China
in the future. As people travel, and are exposed to other
ideas - it becomes harder to maintain the status quo - as your
six year old daughter has proven to you.

Foxy, with respect to all OLO readers, I doubt there would be many (if any) here that would ever urge violence.

I think we can easily focus on the CCP now that a few of us have made it clear what we are concerned about.

So, if there is anyone out there, in the words of one Pink Floyd song, that can justify or understand the CCP's actions, let us hear them

Foxy,

The CIA has a term for innocents who are inadvertently affected by the wider damaging actions and vicissitudes of others: collateral damage.

Hi Foxy, I've fixed the title. Sorry about that. It is an issue the system has with double quotation marks in titles.

I waved your thread through, but I'd hope that no one on OLO is generally referring to "white identity". That is a racist concept.

Like many (most I would hope) I am a strong supporter of European values, but they have nothing to do with skin colour. In fact they are the basis for universal norms to which most ascribe in theory, if not in practice. Even the Chinese government pretends to be in favour of equality and the rule of law, except they quite clearly aren't.

I'm very concerned that various activists ascribe values to racial groups, which is one reason that I could never support the BLM movement.

My concern about China is not because Chinese have different physical features to me, it is because the country is being run by a criminal clique called the Chinese Communist Party. That is why I support Hong Kong democrats, and Taiwan, because they observe international norms and respect democracy and human rights.

I like to think that if I were observing Germany from here around 1936 I would have been thinking about Germans in a similar way, without giving one thought to what physical features they have.

The way race has become tangled with actions and governance is detestable, and needs to be stamped out.

One of our close friends is from China and was a student at an Australian university at the time of the Tienanmen massacre. Bob Hawke allowed students from China at that time to stay in Australia. She got her PhD and is fully aware of the authoritarian nature of the Chinese government. The CCP cannot keep Chinese students in Australia from being influenced by Australian ideas of democracy.

One of the Australian ideas of democracy in the present day is freedom of religion. I deplore the Chinese imprisonment of a million Uighurs in concentration camps. Then I think of the fact that when Aborigines were kept in mission compounds no respect was given to their religion. They had the non-indigenous religion of Christianity forced on them. A man whose son is a missionary to the Aborigines told me that the Aborigines practice devil worship. I asked how he knew that. He told me his son saw them doing some pre-Christian dances. Some Australians of today still see non-Christians as worshipers of the devil.

The Chinese government has probably informed their citizens of the former white Australia policy, the humiliation of China in the Opium Wars in which Hong Kong was detached from China and the British continued to sell opium, the Chinese Exclusion act in the US and other anti-Chinese acts. The past humiliation of China does not excuse the tyrannical nature of the current Chinese government.

However, there may be a way to make things better. The Chinese have a tradition when a dynasty is overthrown. Scholars of the new dynasty get together with scholars of the past dynasty to write a history telling what happened. Let us offer to have Australian scholars get together with Chinese scholars to write a history of what has happened between us. Let us have an agreement that such a history be made available to all Australians and all Chinese. We cannot change the past, but we can recognize it and thereby change the present.

I understand the argument put forward, with the valid concerns regarding the CCP. My question is; What is the alternative?
Had the Nationalists under Chiang Kai-shek won the civil war in 1949 what would China be today, another India possibly. Taiwan came about only through massive US support. Few countries suffered to the degree China did before, during and after WWII. We can point the finger at China from our moral high ground, but we have had numerous advantages that puts us where we are today.

Australia's poor attempts at sabre-rattling, finger pointing and shadow boxing, are pathetic and will not budge the CCP one inch from its belligerent position. In fact Australia has come off second best so far with a poke in the eye from the Chinese blunt stick. I see China as a danger, but how best should we deal with that danger?

Dear Graham and David,

Thank You both for your contributions to this discussion.
They are appreciated and I can only hope that it will
have some influence on others and if not, at least make them
think.

Alexander Solzhenitsyn reminded us in his book, "The Gulag
Archipelago", of an old Russian proverb:

"No. Don't dig up the past. Dig up the past and you will
lose an eye."

But the proverb goes on to say:

"Forget the past and you will lose both eyes."

So as David points out - we can certainly learn from the
past in order to move on and create the future.

Dear Graham,

I forgot to Thank You for fixing the title of this discussion
for me. Thank You.

Dear Paul,

My parents fled from Communism as you know. The Communist
Soviet Regime. Dad's brother was tortured to death as a young
student by the retreating Red Army in Lithuania in the famous
massacre in the forest of Rainiai. Dad's sister had a mental
breakdown when she had to identify the body. Dad never spoke
much about those horrific times. Our family could never ever
support any totalitarian regime. Therefore having labels
thrown at me can at times be very distressing. But I know
that people don't mean ill-will - and they would probably be
more self-controlled if we were to meet face-to-face.
That's true for me as well. We all tend to react when pushed
and I'm just as guilty of pushing as anyone else here.
Though I'm trying to be more self-controlled - but it's not
always easy.

I learn a great deal from you, from David, and certainly from
Graham, and many others.

I don't have the answer as to how to deal with China. I'll leave
that to the experts. We enough of those in government and
elsewhere, I'm sure. I'm sure that all of them will tell us to
do what is right by our nation and not to compromise on our
values and what we hold dear.

Also let us not forget that China needs us as well so she can't
sabre-rattle all that much. But perhaps I am being naive.
I probably am. I would hate to see another Tiannamen Square
event happen in Hong Kong or anywhere else for that matter.

So although we need to tread carefully. We must be prepared
for the worst case scenario.

I've spoken to a Chinese neighbour. Had afternoon tea
with her. And she told me that it's been over 200
years of Chinese migration to Australia. She belongs
to a Chinese community here in Melbourne and she stressed
how the community wants to define itself on its own terms
separately from the debates over the influence of the CCP.

She also reminded me that not everyone who looks Chinese
is a recent or new arrival.

Just like not all white people are the same.

Foxy, I believe your poll information is flawed.
Trust in China according to Lowy institute is just 23%.

http://www.news.com.au/world/australias-trust-in-china-has-plummeted-according-to-a-new-lowy-institute-poll/news-story/88c72ef65868db6be97f57ede80fda80

"Trust in China and its President Xi Jinping among Australians has fallen dramatically in recent years, a new poll has found.

Only 23 per cent of Australians trust China to act responsibly in the world, a dramatic fall from 52 per cent just two years ago, according to The Lowy Institute’s annual poll.

The survey, which gauges Australians’ attitudes towards a series of global issues, took the views of 2448 people in late March."

I noticed that ttbn recommeded some books in his post
on China.

I'd like to add my list as recommendations for those
interested in the subject of China and life under the
regime told by people who'd lived through the experience:

1) "Mao's Last Dancer", by Li Cunxin.

2) " One Bright Moon", by Andrew Kwong.

3) " Wild Swans" , three generations of women. by Jung Chang.

All are very page-turning books. Poignant and moving.
Excellent reads.

Josephus,

Thanks for that piece of information.

I knew there was something wrong with Foxy's claim that:

"77%, see China as more of an economic partner to Australia than a military threat (15%), and that about an equal number (73%) want Australia to develop closer relations with China as it grows in influence."

Turns out to be the total opposite of what Foxy is telling us and I think Foxy has a bit of soul searching to do.

I'm not beyond making mistakes but I can claim to be a totally honest person. (In fact I might just be the most honest person in the world.)

Dear Josephus,

If you read my post on page one - I clearly stated
that the information I gave came from the Lowy Institute
poll that was released yesterday, Sunday 5th July 2020.
Your information is earlier. I believe you said - late
March. So mine would appear to be more current.

Anyway, you can check the link given below. I am not
in the habit of making things up.

Mr O,

It wasn't my claim - but the Lowy Institute's poll,
as given on the web. The information is more current than
that of Josephus.

Perhaps you're the one that needs to do some soul
searching.

http://www.lowyinstitute.org/australians-china-less-military-threat-too-much-investment-residential-real-estate

Foxy,

My apologies. I jumped the gun thinking that you were citing the same source as Josephus.

Problem now is why do we have two almost contemporaneous sources re similar enquiries but very different findings, especially given they were produced by the same organisation. Something doesn't make sense and I would say a touch of human inference has taken place, particularly with the latter one which to me does not make sense in the light of conflict between Australia and China that was getting wide media coverage.

Hi Foxy,

The absolute appalling carnage man has unleashed on his fellow man is indescribable, unfathomable. The twentieth century was beyond any reason as to why so much horror should have become the norm, but it did, and its history we have to lean from, and future generations have to learn from. Just out of interest my year 9 granddaughter asked me a few weeks back what was "Brexit", she had an assignment to do on it. I must ask her does she know anything about the "Holocaust", I've got the feeling she may know nothing as yet.

As for China, I don't condone the actions of the CCP in any way. Internally their treatment of minorities and dissidents is appealing. The CCP seems to believe the only way it can govern 1.5 billion people effectively is through suppression. A new cold war between China and the United States is most likely. As China becomes more the growing economic power in the world, and the US is in decline I see conflict of some kind as inevitable. For Australia I support a no-aligned position. So far our foray into attempting to pull China into line has been a dismal failure, we have come of second best. I certainly don't want war, although that is more than often the outcome when two sides can't see eye to eye.

As for the ordinary people, Chinese, Australians, Americans, whoever, they have no influence, and want no influence on world events, just want to go about their daily lives unmolested. Ordinary people are the bystanders who without choice get drawn into these monstrous world events, and unfortunately too often pay the ultimate price.

Foxy, your argument that our system is better than theirs does not really cut the mustard.

In the real world, no political system will survive without some degree of soft power, or even hard power at worst. Hard power need not be military conflict, but economic sanctions, even if there is economic consequences.

The West may also abandon international institutions if the CCP is to become the dominant force, winning support from corrupt or poor nations.

This leads to the useful comments of Paul and David. Yes, the answers are difficult, and education that acknowledges the worst of our past is indeed wise.

But the CCP shows no sign of accommodation, brainwashes and rewards its … lickers, persecutes its own and dissenters, threatens Taiwan with its own Chinese destiny, and has no regard for international law and agreements as seen by its behaviour in the South China Sea and Hong Kong.

No, the time has come for a full-scale Cold War to defend liberalism, and I believe humanity.

Australia can endure a temporary decline in its economy, but the importance of politics has to prevail.

As for this debate, I am annoyed at the title because it is intended to inflame rather than discuss the pros and cons of CCP behaviour.
So besides my fellow haters of the CCP, and David and Paul, I again ask where are the points that help us understand the CCP?

If good points defending the CCP or downplaying its real or potential influence do not exist, then our political leaders have no reason to tolerate the CCP in any form. End of story.

And we don’t need the Lowy Institute to tell us the bleeding obvious. Most Australians know the CCP it is a threat to humanity, including your Chinese neighbour.

Dear Chris,

A couple of things need correction.

1) Our way of life is definitely better than that given
under the CCP. We have things like freedom of the press
and certain others freedoms under our system of democracy
that the CCP does not give its citizens. So it does
"cut the mustard" for many who fled totalitarian regimes
and know what they are talking about.

2) My Chinese neighbour was distancing herself from the
CCP - and the point that she was making - was that her
community wanted to be judged on its own merits and not
linked to CCP. You seem to have misunderstand what was
being said.

3) Chinese students will undoubtedly be influenced by what
they see and experience here. That's inevitable. And its
something that we need to not close the doors on. Drop
by drop even mountains can get eroded. So, we can also
erode the thinking and influences of others. I believe
that what we have is far superior to what they have.
And that our way of life - gives us certain freedoms that
theirs does not.

Of course you are welcome to disagree.

A bunch of traitors calling themselves the Chinese-Australia Business Council has told a Chinese audience that "economics overrides security". Dollar-driven Australians are just as dangerous to us as the CCP is.

Foxy, to be frank, I am only concerned with the CCP.

What the Chinese Australians here want with regard to their community profile is their business.

Good luck to them, and i welcome their contribution. Hopefully they open up and also criticise the CCP.

What chinese students do here with their open loyalty to the CCP is a real concern to myself, especially if they then apply for working visas and permanent residency.

ttbn, I would never trust the business community with anything political. They mostly only see the $ signs.

The question of the CCP will be a political question, largely determined by politicians

The CCP has accused the UK government of "gross interference in China's affairs" because it has offered refuge to Hong Kong Chinese. The CCP are mad dogs, as is anyone who thinks that we should be having anything to do with them and that it is possible to separate the CCP from China.

Foxy,

I am curious as to why you chose to cite the Lowy poll taken in July rather than the one Josephus showed us that was put up by Lowy in March or at least let us know that the March poll results were contradictory to the July one.

3-4 months is such a short time for such a significant swing so the difference should have been questioned before presenting the July one. Didn't you stop to think and ask yourself why there was such a difference? Or didn't that serve your purpose?

Paul,

You assert that we should take an unaligned position in relation to Chinese military power. Do you mean, a bit like the position Thailand (Siam) took in relation to the Japanese in around 1940 ?

How'd that pan out ?

Joe

Mr O,

What I was doing was searching the subject of whether
Australians saw China as a threat.
The Lowy Institute July poll simple came up. And
being so recent - I quoted from it. I was not aware of the March
figures that Josephus found.

I don't have any agenda and I am certainly not pro the CCP.
How could I be considering my own family's background?

Foxy,

Did you see this ABC news item on today's MSN site?

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/pro-hong-kong-democracy-students-in-perth-allege-death-threats-intimidation-from-chinese-nationals/ar-BB16pexw

Looks like not all the Chinese in Australia are peaceful freedom loving people who want to be part of our democratic multicultural society.

It's your call Foxy; what do you reckon should be done about it?

Mr O,

I am very interested in the extent of this sort of behavior for piece I am writing on race in Australia.

Other articles I have found suggest that majority of Aust Chinese also deplore CCP interference in Aust affairs, although may be impossible to quantify sentiment.

Keep up the great work

Mr O,

Doesn't the article confirm the point being made that
Australian Chinese do not support the CCP. It's a
different case for those from mainland China. They've
been indoctrinated. But hopefully they may change
under Western influence. As for the actions of the
CCP in Hong Kong - that was to be expected. That's
what the CCP does.

So what's your point? Nothing new is being presented
by you. You're just going around in circles singing
from the same old hymn book and beating the same old
drum

We get it!

Foxy,

The point I got from the news item is that there are some Chinese in Australia who act to do others harm in the name of the Chinese nation-state.

I believe these people are probably agents and operatives of the Chinese state with permanent residency or citizenship status whose purpose is to undermine those who do not comply to China's initiatives.

Question: Why are we harbouring Chinese agents under the guise of migrants?

Mr O,

Instead of just asking questions - how about you offering
some solutions?

Australia is the most China-reliant economy in the
developed world with about a third of its exports going
there.

Chinese Nationals make up roughly 38% of its foreign
students and 15 % of its tourists.

Perhaps what we need to do is question whether our nation
is TOO reliant on the Asian behemoth.

Here's a link that explains further:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-02-26/coronavirus-impact-hits-australia-most-china-reliant-economy

Foxy,

I think it is now too late to offer solutions.

Stan Grant has pointed out the crux of the problem, along with others like Niall Ferguson. That being the rise of China as a nation-state. The very political entity that has already brought two world wars in its wake.

And one of the aspects of the rise of it as a nation-state is its imperialism. Germany saw its Lebensraum in the lands of Slavic Europe and I think China sees its Lebensraum to its south especially in Australia.

I think it has just dawned on Scott Morrison et al that China has extraterritorial ambitions to expand its imperial interests and create a revitalised Chinese empire under the CCP.

But it's too late for solutions. The wheels are already in motion and the behemoth is unstoppable.

who cares what some others think. they merely offer their opinions.

It is never too late.

Get on board Mr O and show some guts and confidence.

Mr O,

Well then by your scenario - should we simply do
nothing? Is that what you're saying when you say
it's too late for solutions?

It sounds to me that yours is a very unsatisfactory
approach and all you're really interested in doing is
fearing mongering.

Not good enough - in my books.

Offer some solutions as to what Australia should do.
Otherwise what's your point in this discussion (apart from
fear mongering).

Mr O, it is time to you write an article for OLO.

Chris & Foxy,

Unfortunately I cannot see any way out of it.

I think Australia will be become part of a Chinese empire that stretches from Mongolia to the southern tip of New Zealand.

China needs land for its people and resources for its industries. The very same things that Hitler offered his people. The difference is where Hitler failed Xi will succeed.

Foxy, yes China is reliant on us for coal, gas and iron ore: all the things it needs to build the tanks, frigates, fighter jets needed to bring Australia into its empire.

MR O,

there would be a third world war before that happens

As if the West would allow one of its own to be taken by China.

Mr O,

You say that you see Australia becoming part of the
Chinese Empire?

What I see is Australia having closer co-ordination with
other Indo-Pacific partners. India, Japan,
Malaysia, New Zealand, South Korea, Vietnam,
and of course the US.

I see Australia restricting foreign investment, shifting
manufacturing capabilities away from mainland China.

While China certainly has the powers to coerce. It also has a
tremendous capacity to be its own worst enemy by pushing
too hard on its neighbours.

Asian leaders and Australia will continue pursuing new forms
of co-ordination with each other. Australia has already
signed treaties with countries like India.

We have a chance to build more equal and capable regional
partnerships and institutions in the long road to recovery
ahead - this will challenge and complicate the views of those
in Beijing. But Australia will do what's
best for its nation.

And if those don't learn to compromise. They risk being
left behind.

Australia will come out ahead.

Chris,

When it comes to the crunch the other nations will put their interests before our interests.

Didn't the rest of Europe turn a blind eye to Hitler when he militarised the Rhineland and took control of Austria and Sudetenland in order to avoid a war with Germany?

The last thing Europe and the US will want is a war with China.

Don't agree Mr O.

The West will rise to protect western nations.

That is what I believe. And that is what I want to believe.

Mr O, do you lack courage?

Get ready to serve in Dads Army, Australia style.

Scott Morrison says that Australia will not be intimidated
by threats. He emphasized that "I am not going to trade
our values in response to coercion".

What is worrying is the attempts by some to link the CCP
with Chinese Australians. That is unfair. But as long as
the debate focuses on China - this type of fear mongering
and toxicity will continue.

Some of us seem to be unable to have a serious debate on
the issues involved without finger-pointing.

We should focus on facts like - from port facilities, to
infant formula, to commercial and residential real estate,
to agriculture - Chinese capital investment has continued
to grow and totaled $64 billion in 2018.

What is our government going to do about all this?

Will it continue to allow itself to be so reliant on China?

Foxy,

You're definitely right about the fear mongering. Look at this ABC news item re Canberra putting fear into the minds of people thinking of travelling to China:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-07/dfat-changes-travel-advice-for-australians-in-china/12431134

Mr O,

I'm beginning to suspect that you are a troll
who's here to cause mischief.

I shall not be responding to you any further.

I warn others about this person. He's not who or what
he says he is.

Dear Mr. Opinion,

I can only join Chris and Foxy in wondering where your defeatism comes from.

We might indeed become poor, we might even starve, we might all be bombed out, but we shall first give them a damaging good fight. We shall prevail or we shall die, but we will never become part of a Chinese empire.

By requesting America and/or India in advance, China could never benefit from defeating Australia, never acquire our space and natural resources, because if we fail in protecting our homes then they will turn our continent into Bikini Atoll, http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/02/bikini-atoll-nuclear-test-60-years

«Look at this ABC news item re Canberra putting fear into the minds of people thinking of travelling to China:»

Too little! All Australians still there must be told to leave China AT ONCE. Due to the current shortage of guarded hotel-rooms, Australia should send empty cruise-ships, complete with police-guards, testing-kits and Corona-hospitals, for the dual-purpose of repatriating Australians from China while isolating them at sea.

«Question: Why are we harbouring Chinese agents under the guise of migrants?»

Because it is difficult to sort the goats out of the sheep.
Nobody knowingly harbours Chinese agents, any more than we knowingly harbour the Coronavirus. The answer is in more testing, testing and more testing. We should encourage the good majority of Chinese-born Australians to discover the rats and hand them in. Australian institutions that cater for Chinese people, universities in particular, should also face hefty penalties for aiding and abetting the enemy and should not be allowed to operate without an approved CCP-safe plan.

All Chinese diplomats should also be kicked out, there is nothing there to sort.

«The last thing Europe and the US will want is a war with China.»

But a war there will be, anyway. Trying to postpone it is futile so better get it all done with now.

Foxy,

That's curious because I thought you were a troll.

Dissidence and protest against the CCP occurs all the time in China, not just Hong Kong. Twenty years ago, demonstrations against the totalitarian regime in mainland China averaged just under 100,000 incidents per year. By 2010, there were 180,000 incidents that year. No figures since. The likes of Andrew 'China' Forrest, and others who make billions out of telling us that the Chinese Communist government just wants to be friends and trade with us should get among ordinary Chinese and see what its like for them. They wouldn't be allowed to, of course, and the money is too good for them to face reality.

Any Australian touting for China is no better than the Communists themselves. They have no conscience, no morals and no humanity.

“In late 2019, the UN Human Rights Council heard testimony that alleged the internment camps were also being used as a source for China’s illicit organ trade. This month, the story broke that the US seized an import of 13 tons of human hair suspected to be from Chinese internment camps. This is the second such seizure in year of Chinese hair products, which amount to some $6 billion worth of exports annually from China. The reports indicate that China is forcibly shaving the heads of prisoners in internment camps for profit.

In addition to China’s human rights violations of its own citizens, China is cozying up to other destructive countries such as Iran. Iranian media reported that the two countries are working on a 25-year memorandum for economic benefit that could potentially include a $260 billion investment from China in Iran’s gas and oil industry. Additionally, China has publicly opposed extending sanctions on Iran, and both Russia and China could potentially sell weapons to Iran as early as October, should an arms embargo on Iran not be extended”.

https://www.jpost.com/international/chinas-increasingly-oppressive-actions-show-dangerous-global-trend-63408

As well as the 'do not travel warning' to China because of the Wuhan generated virus, Australian foreign affairs has issued another warning against travel to the Communist country because of the risk of arbitrary detention there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectification_of_names

“Rectification of Names (Chinese: pinyin: Zhèngmíng; Wade–Giles: Cheng-ming). Confucius was asked what he would do if he was a governor. He said he would "rectify the names" to make words correspond to reality.”

Could the CCP be labeled a terrorist organization?

Former foreign Minister Julia Bishop is urging Australia to do
more quiet diplomacy behind the scenes to convince China to
sign up to an independent global inquiry into the handling of
the corona virus.

Ms Bishop said Australia's push for a global review also needed
to include other countries handling of the global pandemic
including the US and Europe so it wasn't squarely aimed at the
initial outbreak in the Chinese city of Wuhan.

Speaking at a virtual Lowy Institute event alongside former
Labor foreign minister Gareth Evans
Ms Bishop said Australia needed to conduct
"some calm and considered diplomacy" behind
the scenes, rather than in the media spotlight.

There's more at the following link:

http://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/julia-bishop-urges-calm-and-considered-diplomacy-with-beijing-20200512-p54sbw.html

Dear David,

You ask -

Should the CCP be classed as a terrorist organisation?

In my books - yes of course.

But then so should other totalitarian regimes - past and present
be (have been).

Julie Bishop and Gareth Evans would say that.

But, nice talks has had its day.

The CCP is out to undermine Australia, and would only laugh at such efforts.

Chris,

Australia cannot negotiate with China simply because of the difference in power.

As Churchill (Gary Oldman) said to Chamberlain in the film 'The Darkest Hour' re Chamberlain wanting to keep on negotiating with Hitler for peace: "How do you talk to a tiger when you have your head in its mouth!"

I found this news item today:

http://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6166744687001

Completely opposite to what Foxy put forward. Foxy's proposition that we have this great yearning to be at one with China is absolute crap!

But we can always try, so let's send some of our Neville Chamberlain types like Gillard and Bishop off the Beijing to sweet talk Xi and the boys and see how far that gets us.

Misopinionated,

Foxy, yearning to be at one with China ? Where is the slightest evidence of that ? Who, in their right mind, would want that ?

What don't you understand about her perfectly proper comment:

"Should the CCP be classed as a terrorist organisation?

"In my books - yes of course."

You really are either a moron or a troll. Quite likely, both.

Joe

Dear Joe,

There are many concerns that are growing about China.
And for Australia it is a tough balancing act. The
government needs to be alert to the Chinese
communist party's influence in Australian universities.
It needs to look into whether activities conducted by
Confucius Institutes at Australian universities fall foul
of Australia's foreign interference laws.

Then there's the protests in Hong Kong against China's
controversial extradition laws that have split onto
Australian university campuses leading to scuffles between
pro- Hong Kong and pro-China activists. And much, much more.

Our government needs to be alert to the Chinese communist
party's potential for domestic influence and interference,
while trying to maintain a relationship critical to our
economic and strategic interests.

I found an interesting article that says we should direct our
efforts at improving our collective understanding and
knowledge of the ruling CCP, its structures, its leaders, and
its military wing - the People's Liberation Army.

We're told that such expertise is "thin on the ground" across
Australian universities and think tanks.

We're reminded that during the cold war - Western governments
recognized a strategic requirement to better understand the
Soviet Union. They encouraged Universities to develop
specialist language skills and expertise on the communist
world. A question of keeping your enemy close and knowing
how to deal with them and how they work.

Considering our location, our alliances with the United States
and our reliance on China for trade - this suggestion makes
sense. That more the more knowledge we have the better equipt
we shall be to deal with our enemy. And this makes the
knowledge more crucial - than it was with the Soviet Union.

There's more at the following link:

http://www.theconversation.com/australia-has-few-home-grown-experts-on-the-chinese-communist-party-thats-a-problem-121174

Foxy, there is no need to study the CCP.

It is already being studied and reported extensively.

what do you think some clown is going to save the situation, some supposed elite guru?

I used to submit to a University mag ten years ago having studied the issue, but the univesity said it was not ready for that yet.

i love it when the supposed superior hybrow stuff comes out, as usual ten years after the event.

But feel free to read the bs, as many more jump on the anti-China bandwagon with their supposed superior intellect.

Dear Chris,

Why don't you read the link I gave.

You might get a better understanding of what the conversation
is all about. And what's actually being said.

Chris,

Marx's Thesis Eleven goes something like:

"The role of intellectuals hitherto has been to describe the world; our role is to change it."

And he was right. Describing the world is the easy part, any half-wit can do that if they are paid enough. What to do about it all, is another matter entirely.

Indigenous affairs is just like that too. I don't think a decent book on the subject has come out in twenty years.

Joe

Joe,

Ah yes, but in order to change things our ideas come from
acquired knowledge and learning passed down from generation to
generation. It all starts with learning and education.

Foxy,

Well, sometimes our most useful ideas come from innovation, from thinking OUTSIDE the square, not yammering away on 'time-honoured' maxims. I think that might have been Marx's point.

In this case, Chinese power and likely aggression, of course we should be actively fostering close trade, social and military ties between Aust/NZ and SE Asia, from India around to Japan and across the Pacific; perhaps with Canada as well.

The US is going to be preoccupied with the coming Covid disaster, and the incredibly all-important task of re-electing Trumpf. After he is thrown out, and assuming Biden is elected, and the after-effects of the virus are controlled, the US might be in a position to contribute.

But all that will take new ideas, not re-hashing old ones.

Joe

I'm just Biden my time.

https://genius.com/George-gershwin-bidin-my-time-lyrics

Foxy, I did read it. It merely reinforced what I said.

Academia, politics, is incapable of making much difference.

Go read the politics journals, they are pathetic. Nearly always completely biased and anti-coalition on important policy issues.

Like I said, all that needs to be said is already been said. What difference do you think academics are going to make?

The only solution with the CCP is a Cold War.

But, if the Morrison govt wants some frank and in depth analysis of the CCP issue, I would love to do it for them, at a much cheaper rate than the overpaid university researchers who will now be begging for handouts by making out that they can save the world.

But I am happy with the various essays written by many, the work of ONA and ASIO, the press, and parliamentary committees, that are telling us all we need to know.

The rest will take care of itself.

I don't even think the books make much difference either, given that most books merely ramble on with the arguments better put in essays.

But then I don't read books at all.

Please forgive me for not reading books. I have too many others things to do.

Looks like China is getting ready to turn up the heat on Australia if it allows HK refugees to flee here:

http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/china-threatens-australia-over-helping-fleeing-hong-kong-citizens/news-story/748091de11f803581b8a163c968ffc35

Do it, take HK people.

You cannot have an evil regime dictate to a liberal democracy what it can or cant do.

A liberal democracy has to stand for something.

Chris,

I think China will be really pissed off if Scott Morrison permits entry to any Chinese fleeing to Australia or providing sanctuary to any Chinese here already.

If he does he will be poking a stick at an angry bear. Knowing the way the Chinese behave it wouldn't surprise me if China also threatened force to get its citizens back.

I noticed in the news that Bronwyn Bishop has now jumped on the China Beware bandwagon and saying that China now poses a military threat that Australia helped in building up its power by trading with it.

The link I gave earlier certainly made a lot of sense.
That's why I'm puzzled somewhat by the reactions.

The link made it quite clear that the CCP calls the shots
in China internally and externally. And unless we understand
the Party's objectives, how the leaders think and make decisions,
our policies are likely to come up short.

Chinese language is widely taught in Australia, including through
the Confucius Institutes. But China studies, as a discipline is not
currently structured or incentivised to develop expertise on
China's ruling CCP or the PLA.

Since the mid 1990s we're told that Australia's empiral research
expertise on China (and Asia more broadly) has declined.
Fewer Australian universities offer courses on Chinese politics,
while those that do tend to be historically focused.

The knowledge gap is not only impoverishing the public debate.
Universities are also incubators for Australia's next generation
of China experts who will populate government, business, and
academia itself.

It's pointed out that a healthy public discourse requires -
strategists, linguists, economists, historians, and political
scientists to contribute - as each sees "the problem" from
different angles.

Moreover the China debate is too important to leave exclusively to
country experts, some of whom have a vested interest in preserving
their access and networks in the People's Republic of China.

Finally, we're told that academia is not playing the role it
could and should to raise Canberra's policy game and elevate the
public debate on China.

The government should explicitly identify this as a knowledge
gap for Australian universities to fill.

Dear David F.,

I think we're all Bidening our time and hoping that we
won't be Trumped once again.

ok Foxy, let's waste tax money on overrated so-called experts. I am sure it will happen, because that is what university leeches do, long after the horse has bolted.

I mean where were they ten years ago. Even I, a former factory worker, knew what the CCP was doing, that the US would not put up with it, and that Australia was living on borrowed time.

But at politics conferences, the only one I went to because they are merely wank-fests, the so-called Chinese expert described me as a racist. Should of given him a serve, stupid pencil neck geek.

But Foxy, you will never convince me it is needed. Most of people who study politics are a bunch of dills living in Disneyland.

When it comes to the CCP, I am proud to be rightwing. Because democracy, which is the antithesis of authoritarianism, is the only possible saving grace for the world, at least people who want to be relatively free in this mad, mad world.

In the meantime,

https://www.hudson.org/events/1836-video-event-china-s-attempt-to-influence-u-s-institutions-a-conversation-with-fbi-director-christopher-wray7202

Dear Chris,

«The only solution with the CCP is a Cold War.»

Too late, it is more likely to be a hot one.
In fact, it likely is a hot one already, likely that China already fired the first shot - a biological weapon called COVID-19.

---

Dear Mr. Opinion,

«If he does he will be poking a stick at an angry bear. Knowing the way the Chinese behave it wouldn't surprise me if China also threatened force to get its citizens back.»

And the alternative?
Suppose we fail to poke that stick and help the Hong-Kong refugees, then it would indeed surprise me if China threatened force... instead they would simply use it, at their tactically copportune time when they can make the best of the element of surprise.

It is not a question of "If", it is only a question of "when" - we already are at war and nothing you do or don't will change that!

Rather than turning your back-side to them, better turn around to face them and fight, there is nothing to lose!

Dear Chris,

I grew up in the western suburbs of Sydney.
My father worked in a rubber factory and died
of a massive coroner at the age of 52. So don't
put me in any "elite" class. What any of us
achieve is simply through hard work and of course
lots of family support.

The point being made about China is - that if our
government understands better who they're dealing
with and how to deal with them - our government will
be better equipped to handle things.

Anyway, lets try to keep this debate on a higher level.
Without it becoming personal.

Yuyutsu,

I most certainly won't be putting my life on the line.

I live in Sydney and I have already become accustomed to living in a Chinese city, which is how I would best describe Sydney. A few more million Chinese in Sydney won't change the demographic landscape.

So best of luck. For myself, I'll be at home watching it on TV.

Dear Mr. Opinion,

If, God forbid, China succeeds in invading Australia,
then there are just three places you could be in,
and Sydney is not one of them:

1) Up in heaven.
2) Down in hell.
3) In some outback mine as a slave, in chains, digging ores for the Chinese and never seeing sunlight ever again.

But yes, some parts of you may indeed continue living in Sydney, like your heart, your liver, your kidneys and your corneas which could well sit at the home of some rich Chinese and watch it all on TV.

I think there is a misapprehension that you need to understand China to win. You don't need to be able to understand your opponent to win at chess, you just need to be able to understand chess.

When it comes to national security the rules are pretty simple. Bulk up your armed forces and form alliances with reliable allies so that you outnumber your enemy.

One thing I haven't seen anyone touch on here is the aid budget (you may have, and I could have missed it because I'm not following this thread all the time).

China is buying all sorts of relationships in the Pacific, including in PNG. Jeff Wall's articles on this site are detailing this. Along with an increase in the military budget there needs to be either an increase in the aid budget, or a redirection to our Pacific neighbours.

At the same time you'd better hope Donald Trump wins the election. The alternative is an incompetent and corrupt party that will degrade the US's ability to be a counterbalance to the CCP by undermining it's self belief, waste treasure trying to export democracy to countries that need to find it for themselves, and de-industrialising, pandering to a green/left environmental agenda.

Yuyutsu,

Too late to be worrying about it now.

Dear Mr. Opinion,

«Too late to be worrying about it now.»

Fortunately PM Scott Morrison as well as seemingly all other members in this forum, think differently. I hope you have your cyanide pill ready, but the rest of us shall not give up the good fight.

---

Dear Graham,

Without any joy, it does not matter who wins the US elections - America is already defeated in this WW-III, you only need to observe how they succumbed in disarray to the first Chinese shot, COVID-19. Seeing how all Trump can offer to fight the virus is Hydroxychloroquine and drinking disinfectants, what will he suggest when China actually bombs American bases and aircraft carriers with super-sonic shells, then blockades and besieges America itself? drinking rhinoceros horn-powder for virility perhaps? American soldiers in general are unruly, mostly come from poor classes, are beset with racial issues and have a low morale.

But while America is a lost cause, we do have many other friends and together, let us pray for God's deliverance so by His grace alone we can beat China and free their own people as well from CCP tyranny.

---
"Lo, thou trustest in the staff of this broken reed, on Egypt; whereon if a man lean, it will go into his hand, and pierce it: so is Pharaoh king of Egypt to all that trust in him." [Isaiah 36:6]

"Bulk up your armed forces and form alliances with reliable allies so that you outnumber your enemy." Well Graham, then we can all march off and repeat WWI. Have we not learned anything in a 100 years, there must be a better way. I do agree on the foreign aid issue, I have seen first hand the benefits of foreign aid in Fiji and Vanuatu, its not a matter of redirecting away from others, it a matter of increasing it to an acceptable level overall, Australia has failed to do that. If you're starving you don't care about the politics, or religion, or colour of the skin of the man who gives you bread.

I have asked, what is the practical alternative for China to the pseudo communist party governing the country now, as yet no one has given an answer. Considering China's past history its not surprising that an authoritarian regime is in control. How do you govern a vast country of 1.4 billion, mostly poor illiterate people, the luxury of a western style democracy as we enjoy does not appear to be a realistic option. The alternative might be the Indian model, if I was China I wouldn't be choosing the Indian model, would you?

On Trump, he can't hide from the World what he is, so if you are correct the other bloke must be absolutely pathetic. America has a history of mostly dumb presidents, why change now.

China has a history of a supposedly powerful regime fragmenting. The CCP is aware of that history. That is one of their fears. I am amazed that they let the protests in Hong Kong go on as long as they did. I have hopes of China fragmenting as the USSR did. The USSR looked impregnable in its unity but imploded. The same thing could happen to China.

Dear Paul,

You wrote of China having a pseudo communist party. Why? As far as I can see they have a real communist party. Perhaps there is an ideal communist party somewhere analogous to the Platonic theory of forms. Aristotle denied Plato's theory of forms and contended we must deal with things as they really are. The CCP is one example that defines what a communist party is.

david f,

Can you explain why the Soviet Union imploded?

I think thee are a whole lot of reasons why the West can win a Cold War.

I would be surprised if a major war occurred, as the US and the CCP would have much to lose.

But who knows what will happen once the West turns the screws

Dear Mr Opinion,

One reason the USSR imploded is that they tried to finance a great power military establishment without having a great power economic base. Consumer shortages exacerbated popular discontent. Another reason is that non-Russian nationalities did not appreciate Russian domination. Another reason was rising expectations. Although the average USSR citizen was better off than they were under the czars their situation was not nearly as good as life in the western democracies. One can thank Gorbachev for the peacefulness of the implosion.

david f,

Your on the right track re the economic and political circumstances that the USSR was in during the 1980s.

Would you believe it was Ronald Regan who caused it.

Dear Mr Opinion,

I would not believe it was Ronald Reagan who caused it. The causes for Soviet implosion were mainly within the Soviet.

What about suggestions that we bring in pro-democracy Hong Kong Chinese? It might sound warm and fuzzy, but will it not make it easier for the CCP? Help the CCP get rid of opposition to their vicious totalitarianism?

Then there is the question of do we really want more foreigners here telling us how racist we are, or them being told how white and evil we are by our Fifth Column 'cancel culture'?

David F,

Yes, you're on the button about the potential weaknesses of Chinese and Soviet totalitarianism, that's how communism inevitably degenerates.

Ttbn,

Too stupid to comment on.

Joe

Dear Loudmouth,

I think we should take in refugees from Hong Kong. However, it is likely that among the genuine refugees will be CCP plants.

agree with David.

Obviously, some screening will occur, but it is important that liberal democracies stand for something rather than ignore plight of HK completely.

David,

Yes, take it for granted. But don't blame the genuine refugees - there will be plenty enough of them - for whatever the CCP will get up to.

Joe

Joe,

I'm sorry to hear that you are too stupid to comment.

david f,

You can bet London to a brick that China will make sure it lets all the criminals and crime lords from both HK and the mainland free to go to Australia as refugees.

Isn't this what happened with Cuban refugees to the US: Castro opened all the prisons so that all the sh!t could leave by boat for Miami with the result that MIami became one of the principal crime centres in the US?

I think Xi will be thinking along similar lines to Castro: The adage is 'Two Communists DO make a wrong.'

david f,

It was Regan who triggered the collapse of the USSR in the 1980s.

He put so much money into the Star Wars program that the Soviets had to match him $$$ for $$$ to stay in the arms race.

The USSR could not keep up with the US and as a result its economy went into a downward spiral and collapsed (or imploded as you call it.)

And along with its economy the Soviet polity or empire just unravelled and the rest is history as the saying goes.

You're right in saying that the economic and political circumstances were in place but it was definitely Regan who brought it unstuck.

I don't think it's enough to know how to play the game
regarding chess or car racing or any other activity
that involves trying to beat an opponent.

One has to study how they think and anticipate their moves
in order to win. The same is true in business, and politics.
Some do it subtly and others are more aggressive.
But knowing your opponent gives you an advantage.

China is already studying, analyzing, and slowly getting to
know us, our structures, how we work, think, and they are
able to anticipate our actions. Their Confucius Institutes
exist on every Australian university campus. Their students
are here and can report back. Do we really want to give
them an advantage over us - at our expense?

We need to know how they think, in order to anticipate the
best way to deal with them.

Would China allow us into China to study them? Would we be able
to have Institutes in their universities? Or for that matter
would we be allowed to travel freely throughout China - as
they do when they come here?

So who has the advantage?

It's not enough to just "play the game". It how you play it.
And for that knowledge of your opponent is necessary and
critical.

Mr O,

Reagan played a major role, but David is right to point to whole range of factors, including its own corruption, ineffiencies and poor productivity in a system that hardly inspired innovation.

As far as the fall of the Soviet Regime goes.
There were many factors involved from
Gorbachev's reforms to the rise of nationalism
to the end of the cold war, arms race, end of
ideological confrontations, emergence of new
countries, new alliances (Baltic with NATO) and
so on.

The web tell us that - it was most importantly -
Gorbachev's reforms. His decision to allow elections with
a multi-party system and create a presidency for the
Soviet Union that began a slow process of democratization
that eventually destabilized communist control and
contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Hi Chris,

Yes, Charles Lindblom wrote brilliantly on the inherent and crippling defects in the Soviet economic system from the seventies, for example, "Politics and Markets: The World's Political-Economics Systems" (1983).

I loved the reports of the central planning directives of the Soviet command economy - for example, when a directive came down to a glass factory to produce so many tonnes of glass sheets per day, yes, they produced them, an inch thick. When the directive was changed to so many thousands sheets of glass per day, the factory produced the required number of sheets, a mm thick, utterly useless in both cases. In that sense, the people successfully subverted an incompetent system. As for the production of nails and screws, .......

The Czech writer Joseph Skvoretsky wrote of similar tactics against both the Nazi (loose bolts in Messerschmidt's wings) and the Soviet-imposed systems. Brilliant !

Joe

Joe,

Yes indeed.

That philosophy was seen throughout the Soviet Union:

They pretend to pay us.

We pretend to work.

Yes, Hong Kong refugees can pose a danger, but so are returning Australians. What we do is to quarantine and test them, then let them in.

Genuine refugees who escape the claws of the CCP are not "foreigners", Ttbn, but our brothers and sisters in spirit and soon to also be our brothers and sisters in arms.

As Foxy commented that we need to understand our enemy, these refugees already know the enemy better than we ever will - it will be advantageous to use their knowledge!

Let us be quick as possible, before the iron gates close on them.

Foxy & Yuyutsu,

Yes, on the one hand, the inventiveness of the ordinary people is boundless, but on the other hand, their bitter memories and experiences of brutal power are indelible, they're not stupid, they can tell a phony sooner or later.

So it won't be easy for the CCP to infiltrate its supporters in amongst any Hong Kong refugees that we are sensible and compassionate enough to take in.

Perhaps, after all the marches and demonstrations in Hong Kong, the people involved have got to know each other well enough to know who to trust.

I think they will make a massive - and positive - difference to Australia. I hope some come and settle in my suburb :)

Joe

Dear Yuyutsu and Joe,

Yes. We need all the help that we can get in order
to be able to deal with the enemy that looms in front
of us. An enemy that so far we know so little about.

Our knowledge gap must be filled and our government needs
to see to it that this is done. The sooner the better.

In the meantime in my suburb and the surrounding suburbs
residential high-rise apartment buildings are sprouting
up all over the place changing the entire appearance of
the areas. The appearances of our cities are changing
beyond recognition.

Seriously, this stuff about new information about the CCP is hilarious.

No offence anyone.

Maybe you can remind me when I keep on writing about the CCP that I also have no new info

Australia is to offer a path to permanent residency for
thousands of Hong Kong citizens while suspending its
extradition agreement with the city in response to
China's crackdown on personal freedoms and dissent.

The changes apply to people already in Australia (10,000).
And separate efforts will be made to entice businesses
from Hong Kong to move to Australia.

China's threats to Australia continue.

Huge laugh. A mad bat Harvard graduate made a video telling everyone that she would stab anyone who said, "all lives matter".

But - her video came to the attention of Deloitte, the firm that was going to give her a summer internship. They decided that they didn't want anything to do with a person who threatened to kill people who said things she didn't like.

Justice is sweet!

The bat had the gall to then make another video sobbing, and in a fetal position, about how the firm was ' mean and hurtful' to her.

Nothing to do with this topic of course, but not as boring.

Will be interesting to see how angry the CCP will be with Australia accepting HK people.

But the more the CCP raves on and threatens, the worse it will look.

Good luck with being hated by the world CCP. Let's see how far that gets you.

Foxy said,

"China's threats to Australia continue."

And when the threats stop and the action starts where do we run to? Nowhere. We're stuck on this great big island with nowhere to go, 6000 km from anyone who would be in a position to offer shelter.

I doubt if the US will intervene for fear of starting a nuclear war with China and Russia. I can just imagine Trump saying "Sit tight Aussies, we'll get you out. I've got my best people working on it." Yeah right, just like he handled the WuFlu pandemic inside his own nation.

Giving sanctuary to Chinese fleeing China has not only angered the CCP but will now anger the entire Chinese nation and the CCP will turn it into an act of aggression against the nation-state. I said the clue to what will happen lies in understanding the nation-state and it will be interesting to see if I'm correct.

I'm sorry I cannot paint a rosy picture like Foxy and tell you everything will be alright if you think happy thoughts. If you look back over history it always seems that mostly bad things happen in the world.

But don't listen to me because according to Foxy and LOUDmouth I'm just a moron and a troll who doesn't know anything - even though everything I've been saying over the years seems to be coming true. Everything seems to be happening just the way I thought it would.

ttbn,

Why don't you start your own "exciting" thread?

Why come onto this one if it bores you so much?.

Do us all a favour - start your own, and we'll see
how many hits it gets from people who share your
sense of "ëxcitement".

Go on - make yourself, and us, - happy!

Mr O,

Predicting the future is risky at the best of times.

Regarding Australia and China? we still have a very long
way to go.

I think that we're all aware of the dangers of the CCP
and the fact that it calls the shots in China internally
and externally. And the great threat it poses to us all.

But we need to look at the problem from
all angles. The public debate on China needs to be elevated
by those who have the knowledge in how to deal with China.
We don't want to risk another war or conflict.

Nuclear warfare is not an option from which any one of us
will walk free.

Foxy,

As you are aware I have been formally trained in anthropology, history and sociology and I use that knowledge to work out what is happening in my world.

I have been watching things pan out for the past 2-3 decades and I fear the worst. This is the reason I have been so concerned about the extent to which Australia has let the Chinese establish a foothold in the country. When the crunch comes China will be able to draw on a pool of resources including people.

It is the nation-state that we need to fear and right at this moment the CCP is looking at turning its peoples anger into an imperialist juggernaut. The Chinese aggression that is now heading our way is an extension of the two world wars both of which had their roots in the nation-state.

So the way I see it is that we are witnessing the continuation of an historical process centred around the growth of nation-states that began in the late 18th century. It's fascinating to be a witness to it but terrible to know one is going to be on the receiving end of it.

But then I might turn out to be wrong. Keep your fingers crossed.

Mr O,

I don't for one minute doubt that you mean well.
And I apologise for having called you a troll
earlier. I was having an off-day. But that's no
excuse. Anyway, I shall keep my fingers crossed
that we shall all get through this.

I do respect the knowledge that you've acquired.

Dear Mr. Opinion,

«Giving sanctuary to Chinese fleeing China has not only angered the CCP»

It angered no one, quite the contrary. The CCP has eyes on Australia for decades, it wants our land and our natural resources which they need, not because of what we do or don't. Even when they show an angry face, beneath that mask they are actually smiling for the easy pretext they got to attack us - but do not be deluded: they will attack anyway, with or without pretexts!

http://fablesofaesop.com/the-wolf-and-the-lamb.html

The lamb's best strategy in Aesop's fable, is to swallow something that would give the wolf stomach-cramps if it is eaten.

Our best strategy, for the time-being until we finally catch up and obtain our own nukes and biological weapons for a meaningful second-strike, is to mine this continent, making sure that if we are defeated, nothing will be left for them here, that the level of radioactivity would be so high that nobody will be able to live or extract ores in here. Unlike Hitler who acted solely on emotions, the Chinese are very practical people who act on profits - and it is quite un-Confuscian to invest in attacking in situations from which one cannot gain.

Hi Mr O and Foxy,

I agree there is some evidence to suggest China as a growing power in the world is attempting to increase its sphere of influence. I do not believe Australia is best served by opting for an aggressive response, and by default being seen as a toady of the United States. The US has for the past 75 years done nothing else except aggressively exert its influence over the whole world, both militarily and economically. The dangers of the US "Military-Industrial Complex" was warned of as far back as 1961 by none other than Dwight D. Eisenhower. The Soviet Union was a necessity for the MIC to justify massive US government expenditure on proxy wars. With the downfall of the USSR a new bogeyman was needed to destabilise the world, and justify that massive US arms spending, and we now have that in China.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg-jvHynP9Y

Yuyutsu wrote: “Unlike Hitler who acted solely on emotions, the Chinese are very practical people who act on profits - and it is quite un-Confuscian to invest in attacking in situations from which one cannot gain.”

The above is stereotyping and wrong.

If Hitler had operated solely on emotion he never would have gained power. He was a calculating person who was expert at stirring the emotions of the others.

Mao’s Great Leap Forward was one of the most impractical acts in history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

“Mao decreed increased efforts to multiply grain yields and bring industry to the countryside. Local officials fearful of Anti-Rightist Campaigns and competed to fulfill or over-fulfill quotas based on Mao's exaggerated claims, collecting "surpluses" that in fact did not exist and leaving farmers to starve. Higher officials did not dare to report the economic disaster caused by these policies, and national officials, blaming bad weather for the decline in food output, took little or no action. The Great Leap resulted in tens of millions of deaths,[1] with estimates ranging between 18 million and 45 million deaths,[2] making the Great Chinese Famine the largest in human history.”

Some Chinese are practical. Other Chinese are not so practical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius

“The philosophy of Confucius, also known as Confucianism, emphasized personal and governmental morality, correctness of social relationships, justice, kindness, and sincerity.”

“Confucius's principles have commonality with Chinese tradition and belief. He championed strong family loyalty, ancestor veneration, and respect of elders by their children and of husbands by their wives, recommending family as a basis for ideal government. He espoused the well-known principle "Do not do unto others what you do not want done to yourself", the Golden Rule. He is also a traditional deity in Daoism.”

https://chinatxt.sitehost.iu.edu/Analects_of_Confucius_(Eno-2015).pdf

The above url points to Confucius Analects. They are worth reading.
Perhaps you have confused Confucius with Sun Tzu who wrote the Art of War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu

I notice China's mouthpiece The Global Times didn't lash out the instance Scott Morrison announced formally that he would give sanctuary to Chinese wanting to flee to Australia through his let's call it 'Hong Kong Initiative' to not confuse it with China's 'Belt and Road Initiative'.

I think this means China has stopped talking and is going to take action against Australia for undermining the Chinese nation-state.

I wonder what's coming. Something horrible I'm guessing.

No offence, Mr O, but I think your understanding of international relations needs some work.

What is the CCP going to do to us, besides economic retaliation?

Do you honestly think that Australia cannot go on without Chinese money?

You need to toughen up, or explain exactly what the CCP is going to do to us beyond your simplistic summary that we are all .......

What I say, and I don't need to wait to 20 years of new academic work on understanding China like some here seem to want, is that the response by the West will be in accordance to the threat raised by the CCP. It could be sooner rather later, but we shall see how dumb the CCP is.

Rather than your defeatist scenario, which has no real basis of reality, Australia/the West would be more likely to go on war footing with US forces based here long before China gets anywhere near us, or beyond the countries between it and us.

IN this era of incredible telecommunications, I think the West would have a good grasp of any CCP military build up or any bid to destroy the Australian economy which has huge Western foreign investment.

I think you are capable of better, so look forward to more sensible contributions from yourself.

But I do like your humour.

Mr. Opinion,

What a waste of time this naive thread has been. People don't want the truth - it scares them too much.

Clive Hamilton opens his latest book with: "The comforting belief that democratic beliefs have history on their side and will eventually prevail everywhere has always been tinged with wishful thinking" …… "Universal human rights, democratic practice and the rule of law have powerful enemies and China under the Chinese Communist Party is the most formidable."

All we need now is for morons in America to oust Donald Trump for a 77 year old dementia suffer. And, here, we are already stuck with a non-performer for another two years.

"The wide-ranging campaign of subverting institutions in Western countries and WINNING OVER THEIR ELITES has advanced much further than Party leaders might have hoped".

Too many Westerners speak of China as if the CCP doesn't exist. They fail to understand the Party's comprehensive role. They are politically illiterate on China.

Lying, cheating, threats, blackmail and murder. The CCP gangsters make the Triads look like amateurs. There is plenty of proof of the dangers to come, but casting pearls before the swine on OLO is a waste of time.

Thanks, Chris :)

Cheers,

Joe

ttbn, I am confused. Do you have faith the west can win the battle, and that the West is getting tougher on the CCP, or do you share Mr O's defeatism?

I do disagree that Trump is the best option for taking on the CCP though, as I will argue on OLO should the piece get published in time.

Chris,

Mr. Opinion and I are not confused about the intentions of the CCP because we have taken the trouble to study the phenomenon. Sadly, most people have not done this.

I don't entirely agree with Mr. O on every aspect of the Communist threat to the West; I think we might get away with another Cold War. But, whereas we won the last one with Russia, we were not embroiled economically with the Soviets as we are with the Chinese Communists.

At last count, there were 18 EU countries signed up to the all invasive CCP Belt and Road Initiative, Italy being the first. Yes. 'Civilised' white people just like us; not merely your Islander types.

The UK is riddled with friends of the CCP, including members of the House of Lords. The damage is well and truly done.

If we are lucky enough to keep China's war against us a cold one, things are still going to be very grim.

ttbn,

Yes I agree with your summary.

Western societies and leaders must wage the Cold War now.

IMO, the current CCP attitude will snowball the response. Just recently two US major warships cruised the disputed south china sea.

The acid test will be the West's defence of Taiwan, should that happen.

If the West does not act, we are all gone in terms of superpower struggles.

However, I believe the West, and its influence, can and will prevail.

Chris & ttbn,

Xi Jinxing has over the last two years addressed the PLA on two occasions at public ceremonies watched by the nation-state and told them to prepare for war.

What more do you need to know? Isn't the writing on the wall?

Why do you think Xi was made a president for life? Doesn't that mean that China wants a war leader who will be there for the duration without fear of being voted out?

And when Xi brings home the spoils of war to his people I assume he will be elevated to Emperor.

To me it's pretty obvious the road China has decided to go down. Again, isn't the writing on the wall?

Dear David,

It seems that you know more than me about China.

But would this change in any way the strategy of:
1) preparing for war, as much we can, despite being way behind.
2) preparing for a defeat by being ready to burn the ground and make the resources of this continent inaccessible to the invading Chinese.

In other words, do you think that Xi would react emotionally and irrationally divert troops to conquer us despite understanding that this would be a very stupid move from an economic point of view?

---

Dear Chris,

«ttbn, I am confused. Do you have faith the west can win the battle, and that the West is getting tougher on the CCP, or do you share Mr O's defeatism?»

I do not have faith that we can win in our lifetime, it is truly unknown, especially since America has lost it already, yet I do not share Mr Opinion's defeatism - we shall fight and give it our best, then either we win or we die. We have nothing to lose because life under China is not worth living!

Dear Yuyutsu,

I should not have criticized your post. I apologize.

Things are certainly changing and becoming more complex
regarding China. But we have to remain strong
and not give in to coercion. We need to remain resilient.

China is our biggest trading partner but lets face it
she's also a belligerent
neighbour who's been hacking into our business and
political systems and bullying our neighbours.

All the signs are there that
what happens in China will consume our politics as much as
the corona virus is doing now. We have some complex decisions
to make.

There are call for diversification and decoupling and they
are getting louder. One thing is for sure we need -
We need to protect
Australian institutions from undue influence.
We need to develop resilience when dealing with China.
We have to make our own
complex decisions.
China's coercion is only going to get worse.

Three quarters of Australians according to the Lowy Institute
poll say we are too economically dependent on China. Trust in
China has reached all time lows. The same number of
Australians say Australia does not pressure China enough on
human rights. We should not compromise on our fundamental
beliefs.

Beijing may be immune to our condemnation of its coercive tactics
but the resilience of Australia's liberal democratic institutions
and expert industries are in our hands and we need to keep them
there.

I don't think that China will attempt a direct invasion of Australia, out of the blue: it will be a matter of nibble-nibble, then bite ! as they build up naval bases on any Pacific islands that they can cajole into letting them, as they cut across Australia's trade routes and cut Australia off economically from the rest of the world. If they can cajole PNG (and Vanuatu), then we may be in big trouble.

There won't be an overland invasion, even if the Chinese forces capture Darwin - even the Japanese weren't so stupid as to imagine that they could successfully cross four thousand kilometres of open, dry country to reach the east coast. They may have intended to capture Darwin, certainly, but obviously intended to invade from the north-east coast down, from Cairns and Townsville down to Brisbane and then Sydney and Melbourne. And so it may be, in Chinese planning.

But of course, we will fight, they won't have it too easy. If China itself faces some economic or political crisis, we may have more breathing space. If this all takes more time, and Australia can forge stronger economic, political and military links with Thailand, India, Vietnam, Indonesia and Pacific island nations, we may prevail against any Chinese threat.

If we ever develop drone mini-submarines and produce them in great numbers, we may be able to hold back the main threat, a Chinese naval invasion.

So it's not all loss and defeatism just yet, Misopinionated.

In the meantime and afterwards, we will greatly benefit from an influx of Hong Kong's best and brightest, people who bitterly know and deeply distrust China under the CCP.

Joe

LOUDmouth,

You are just so naive.

Xi didn't tell the Chinese nation-state to prepare for war TWICE in two years as part of some local PR stunt.

I think Morrison promising sanctuary to dissident Chinese this week is the excuse China has been looking for to justify an invasion. It will probably tell the nation that it needs to do so in order to protect the millions of Chinese in Australia, who like the Chinese of Hong Kong also happen to belong to the Chinese nation-state.

Intelligence comments coming out of the US in the last couple of days suggests that the CCP will eventually implode like the Soviet Union, because ‘that’s what communist governments do’.

When told that the CCP seems to be doing very well, one ‘expert’ said that that is not necessarily so, as we don’t get the truth from the Communists.

It is true that there is a lot of disenchantment with the CCP from 93.5% of non-Communists in China, and we don’t hear about the civil disobedience that takes place all time. Something else to think about, then. But I wonder what the Yanks would say about their neighbour Cuba fizzling out any time soon, 'because that's what Communist governments do.?

Dear Joe,

Well said!

One important thing we must urgently do, is to increase fuel storage in Australia, also build more oil-refineries. Blocking off oil-tankers will probably be one of China's first moves.

---

Dear Mr. Opinion,

Xi does not need excuses - he will act whenever he thinks that he has the tactical advantage.

ttbn,

I have the answer!

When you go to bed tonight set your alarm clock to 40 years ago and when you wake tomorrow morning everything will be alright.

Mr O, telling your populace to prepare for war i.e. unite against a common enemy is a common propaganda stunt used effectively by totalitarian governments especially if the queues for rice are starting to become a little too long. China has a huge number of educated middle class who are only a generation away from scrabbling for food in the village. This is nearly all bluff coming from China, Putin is running the same game.

jimmy2shoes,

I was watching Scott Morrison on TV while having lunch and he looks to me like he is now regretting having announced he would give sanctuary to Chinese wanting to flee from China.

I think China is in the process of doing something that he's not passing on to us.

Watch this spot.

Seems to me an ideal time for Australia to invite China, US and other nations to a Disarmament Conference

Mr O,

I don't think that Scott Morrison ever made a comment
about Australia taking in refugees fleeing from China.

He only stated extending the visas of those from Hong Kong
who are already here as a path to becoming permanent residents.
I believe there's about 10,000 of them.

Foxy,

In addition to the 10,000 offers to those in graduate study in Australia there was an offer to anyone who wanted to get out of Hong Kong I think aimed at enticing those with money to flee China in order to put cash into restarting our economy.

Last I heard Hong Kong is officially part of China so people should stop implying that it is a separate polity and that somehow the people of Hong Kong are not Chinese.

Anyway, this has really pissed China off and I believe it is about to exact a heavy vengeance on Australia for undermining its authority over its citizens.

We all understand that it is an attempt to stand up to China the bully but I think in this particular case it is a big mistake and I think Scott Morrison has bitten off more than he can chew.

I'm watching the news reports very closely on this one to see how it plays out and find out what China has install for us.

Mr O,

China agreed to "One Country - two systems" regarding Hong Kong.
This is part of a constitutional principal of the People's
Republic of China describing the governance of Hong Kong and
Macau. It was negotiated by China with the UK in the 1980s
that Hong Kong was to have its own governance in - legal and
economic affairs, including trade with foreign countries.

Scott Morrison is therefore quite free to deal with Hong Kong.
China can threaten all it wants. Scott Morrison simply needs
to stand firm. He knows he's right in what he's doing.
And China needs to back off.

Mr O,

it is going to be so great to see your predictions fail.

Foxy, agreed. China is simply attempting to bully, as we all know bullies fail when people stand up to them.

What, the CCP will fail, when HK stands up to it?

That will be the day.

Maybe we should send some academics to China to tell the CCP how wrong it is. They could refer to studies and international agreements.

No bullies, will do whatever they can get away with.

You can only fight bullies with real actions, not words.

Chris, lets see what happens. we are lucky enough to have a PM with a bit of grit. The post Covid19 world is going to be a lot less economically dependent on a country which exports mainly cheap electronics and clothing in my opinion. Russia has been virtually bankrupted by cheap oil, it wont take much for Chinas economic miracle to disappear and massive internal dissension to appear.

Hi Jimmy2Shoes,

I totally agree - we are lucky to have a PM who's
listening to and taking the advice he's being given.
So far we've been fortunate in this country. Not only
regarding the government's handling of the pandemic,
but more recently, in their dealings with China.

We can only hope that this will continue.

Hi Foxy, Im not politically partisan and like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Scott Morrison is proving he is extremely capable in my opinion. And if Australia cops a bit of economic stress, so what? Maybe this generation who have never experienced a recession in their whole life will come out of this a bit more educated about life in the long term. The world is undoubtedly plunging into recession which may take 10 years or more to recover from, despite this we are still amongst the luckiest people in the world at this time. Our current generation needs to understand how lucky they are and baby boomers really need to stop whinging. We had it good, now its going to get bad and it is our responsibility to shepherd our younger people through this. Not their fault they grew up in a time of unprecedented prosperity.

more funny stuff.

Morison will have to listen to what the US does.

There is no way that Australia can adopt a policy of its own in this environment.

But hang on, soon academia will be coming out with lovey dovey stuff how we can all live together in harmony.

How nice. How sweet

The China government imprisons Uighurs, runs a Hong Kong
administration that assaults its own people, detains
Australian citizens without charge for months, hacks
Australian agencies and claims and militarises the South
China Sea - then accuses Australia of "interference" in
its internal affairs.

Our PM seems to have a careful argument for expecting more
from China as a military superpower and the world's 2nd
largest economy. He believes that Australian interests lie
in telling China the old ways cannot continue.

This is a good thing. And this approach needs to be maintained.
Because as stated on another discussion - if the success
or failure of every Australian foreign policy is measured
by the shrillness of a China official then every policy
would end in failure.

Dear Foxy,

«China agreed to "One Country - two systems" regarding Hong Kong.»

This was when they were weaker.
It gave them time, now they laugh at it.

They laugh at us, still selling them iron, to make them even stronger.
And selling us back their short-lived toys, which kill our own production.

But this is to change soon.
I believe it to be a matter of just a few months until all trade and diplomatic connections are severed between Australia and China.

All Australians remaining in China, including Hong-Kong, will then be kept as hostages.

Their next major step will be to call on all Chinese in Australia, including their Australian-born descendants, including Australian citizens who never visited China, to "return". About half will, then families of those who fail to obey will be punished, losing their jobs and homes, eventually their lives, so about half of the remaining will also be "convinced".

Next they will issue an ultimatum for Australia to forcibly return those "lost sheep" or theirs, the remaining quarter. When we refuse, they will start sinking Australian vessels and blocking fuel-tankers from arriving in Australia, then eventually they will send an armada to collect their "stray flock" themselves (and massacre anyone who stands in their way).

Do not expect America, under any presidency, to offer us any more than a symbolic help - they have too many problems of their own.

We should be ready, much earlier than Morrison is planning. The time-frame for all this to unfold is only about a year.

«Scott Morrison simply needs
to stand firm. He knows he's right in what he's doing.
And China needs to back off.»

We all know that he is right and we are right behind him.
But China will not back off, we need to be ready for war, much sooner than we would like.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Our PM has increased our defence budget.

We are ready for whatever comes.

But I still think that China is not as strong
internally as she makes out to be. I think that
she has her own internal problems to deal with
and will not want a full scale nuclear war -
from which no one will walk away a winner.

Dear Foxy,

«Our PM has increased our defence budget.»

He did, this is very good, but still by too little.

«We are ready for whatever comes.»

Sadly not, we do not even have fuel onshore for more than 3 weeks.

«I think that
she has her own internal problems to deal with
and will not want a full scale nuclear war -
from which no one will walk away a winner.»

I think that you are right, and this is why it will first attack non-nuclear countries with conventional weapons, one by one, or two by two, the weakest first.

Yuyutsu, the Chinese couldnt even win a fist fight against Indians. I dont think we need to be too concerned about their ability to wage actual war. They have lots of people. Thats it.

Australia will need to spend a lot more on countering the CCP, but that will again depend on how aggressive the CCP becomes.

The world needs to take heed of how much the CCP is boosting its military force, which I suspect it already is.

The idea that PM Morrison is on top of the issue has a long way to go.

Poor Australia is stuck between wanting Chinese money, and upholding US (Western) strategic needs.

But it is our fault we ever relied on the CCP so much in the first place. It was always a pathetic and lazy economic reliance.

Chris,

You are spot on. It is Chinese cash that has been keeping the Australian economy afloat for the last 30 years. Why do you think we have been bringing in millions of cashed up Chinese, who spend their money on real estate and buying businesses.

It went so far that it has transformed Australia's principal city Sydney into the country's first Chinese city.

I reject the claim that our relationship with China was always based on greed: there was a time when we innocently believed that open trade will help to free them up.

We were wrong alright, we did not predict the future correctly, we were waiting for a Gorbachev but got a Hitler instead: nobody is to blame but now we need to change course, renounce the cash, protect our borders and try to save as many of our trodden friends we can.

me too, not greed, just wishful and naive thinking.

As if an authoritarian nation will ever change without some serious opposition.

Anyone with half a brain knows that power corrupts.

Except the greedy universities. Come on do-gooders, find me the academic literature that saw the filthy CCP coming

This was not just Aust's strategy. We had no choice but to take advantage of booming freer trade.

US policy towards economic growth advantaged China.

It is always very hard to get right policy settings,but the West tried.

But now the time has come for a serious Cold War showdown.

Chris,

Cold War? If we're lucky!

The CCP has plans for its burgeoning nation-state. It has an industrial complex and pliant citizenry now all it needs to complete the picture of a successful nation-state is an empire.

And you guessed it! Australia is up for grabs.

It's got everything the CCP is looking for: land and resources to transplant its masses and it even comes complete with a ready made Chinese population and culture.

Senator Penny Wong has some interesting advice on the
China situation.

She says - that Australia does need to become more
self-reliant in protecting and promoting its interests.
That it needs to take a leadership role and by that she
means - we need to form deeper alliances with other
countries in the face of China's attempt at escalating
and growing its footprint over the globe.

What is concerning to her is the fact that - in the
United Nations 4 of the 15 specialized agencies are
headed by Chinese nationals while many Beijing-backed
candidates including World Health Director-General -
Tedros Adharom Ghebreyesus - have been elected to
senior positions.

This Senator Wong believes is part of Beijing's growing
influence over the multilateral system and is consistent
with Chinese President Xi Jinping's expressed intention
in 2017 that "reforming and developing the global
governance system" was a major foreign policy priority.

Senator Wong reminds people that - Australia has a long
history of making international institutions more effective
and equitable, and needs to support key candidates and more
actively promote the nation's expertise within global
bodies.

In 1941 Australia had in the north a number of people who preferred an Asian overlord to their French, English, Dutch and American overlords. They are now enjoying independence, have found out an Asian overlord isn't so great and can be allies of Australia against China. It's up to Australia to secure their alliance.

Someone in this thread wrote, "Yuyutsu, the Chinese couldnt even win a fist fight against Indians. I dont think we need to be too concerned about their ability to wage actual war. They have lots of people. Thats it."

The above is nonsense. Any people can fight given motivation, organisation, leadership and weapons. The Nazis sent millions of Jews to their deaths, and that was the stereotype of Jews. With Israel there is a new stereotype. China today is no longer the China of the Opium Wars.

David, its not 1941, you are completely out of touch with modern Asia.

Foxy and david f,

These are dangerous times with nation-states starting to take sides against China.

Over the past 30 years Australia's politicians, bureaucrats and business people lacked the knowledge and foresight to make sense of the path China was going down. People in Australia are now starting to realise they have painted themselves into a corner and I don't think anyone will come to the rescue in time to fend off an invasion of Australia.

Big question now is what act will trigger a hot war in the Indo-Pacific. All the conditions are there, just takes something to ignite the powder keg.

jimmy2shoes,

Is that a guess on your part or are you particularly qualified in these things?

Wow! Look what I found on today's news site. A typical Sydney street scene with lots of Aussies practising social distancing.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-12/hong-kong-visa-acting-minister-for-immigration-alan-tudge/12446754

wow, senator wong, she does sound smart at times.

But, all her rhetoric will not amount to much if the CCP keeps eroding international institutions.

If it does, we should simply leave.

It all depends on the CCP and the world's level of tolerance.

I'm not sure if you're being facetious or not, but isn't that picture taken in Hong Kong. If you look closely it appears that a lot of the signs have Chinese writing on them (besides the fact that the whole crowd seems to characteristically Chinese looking in appearance).

My last post should have been addressed to Mr Opinion.

Dear Chris,

Senator Wong is right - we need to form deeper alliances
with other countries - and Australia does have a long
history of making international institutions more
effective and equitable and she needs to support key
candidates and more actively promote the nation's
expertise within global bodies. Australia is taking
the right approach at present.

Of course we need alliances with other countries. Pretty obvious.

But I doubt that Labor will be good enough to address the CCP question.

They are more prone to see the best in everyone, like many of their supporters.

Vote Liberal on this one.

thinkabit,

Obviously you're not from around these parts.

Pop on down to Sydney (or up when you get released from Melbourne) and have a look for yourself.

Walk around the streets and travel on public transport and visit the large metropolitan malls and you won't be able to tell if you are in Sydney or Hong Kong or Singapore.

Chinese text is plastered all over Sydney. In fact a lot of billboards especially real estate ads are exclusively in Chinese because they represent the biggest real estate market in Sydney.

Looking at the picture I think it was taken in the south CBD of Sydney but it pretty much typical of most of inner Sydney.

Like I said, come and see for yourself if you don't believe me. First time visitors usually always ask the same thing: "Where are all the Australians? What are all these Chinese doing here?"

Dear Jimmy,

«its not 1941»

No, it's more like 1938 now.

Do we need to wait until the number of Uighurs slaughtered rises to 6 million?

Do we need to wait until Hong Kong too turns into a concentration camp?

Do we need to wait until the "Gypsies" of Tibet are burned in open trenches?

Do we need to wait until Taiwan is bombarded into dust?

Do we need to wait until Japan is invaded?

Or shall we remain silent until we starve to death here in Australia because no fuel can arrive to transport food from the fields to our supermarkets?

Yuyutsu, we can have little direct influence on internal Chinese politics. The US war with Japan was preceded by the US starving Japan of fuel. What we can and are doing in Australia is standing firm against Chinese bullying. We are a net energy and food exporter, no one is going to starve in Australia even if all borders closed tomorrow.

Mr Opinion wrote:

"Like I said, come and see for yourself if you don't believe me. First time visitors usually always ask the same thing: "Where are all the Australians? What are all these Chinese doing here?""

Dear Mr Opinion,

What are you doing here? You're not an Aborigine. You're using a language which nobody in Australia was using before the eighteenth century. Those Chinese have imported a non-Aboriginal culture to Australia as the English did. Many of those Chinese are citizens of Australia as you probably are. The answer to your question, "Where are all the Australians?" is answered by saying, "When you're looking at citizens of Australia with Chinese ancestry you're looking at Australians."

david f,

I'm just repeating what overseas visitors say to me when they first visit Sydney.

Visitors from the Philippines have told they are used to seeing a lot of Chinese in their cities but nothing to the extent of Sydney.

Visitors from overseas are mostly surprised to find so many Chinese in Sydney because they have an impression of Australia that didn't match what they saw.

For myself, I have become accustomed to living in Australia's first Chinese city.

Being an Australian today does not mean anything. It's just a name on a piece of paper.

Outside of the workplace people tend to live in disparate groups and tend to shun others along lines of race and ethnicity. People used to discriminate social groups along lines of class but that has become less dominate today as people identify themselves in terms of religion, race and language.

What is your background? You don't seem to know much about this sort of stuff.

Dear Jimmy,

While we cannot hope to influence internal Chinese politics, we should at least try to rescue as many Chinese and Hong-Kong freedom-lovers as we can, then settle them both in Australia and in New-Hong-Kong, to be built on the northern Philippine shore. Also do the little bit we can in supporting the defense of Taiwan and Japan.

It is my understanding that while we have plenty of food and more than sufficient raw energy resources, especially gas, we do not have the refineries to turn significant enough amounts into diesel and petrol that are needed at least to drive supply-trucks from the fields to the cities, nor do we have enough horses and carts for that purpose as we may have had in the 1940's.

Both storage tanks and refineries can be bombed, so we need to build many smaller, distributed, places of fuel-storage around the country, then fill them up as a matter of urgency.

Yuyutsu,

If we run out of fossil fuels to drive all of our machines we can revert to good old fashioned slavery.

There are lots of people on The Forum OLO (with the exception of yours truly) who would make great slaves. All brawn no brains. You don't have to look too far to figure out whom I'm referring to.

At our current rate of consumption we should run out of fossil fuels in about 2000 years. I can understand the urgency.

Dear Mr Opinion,

I am a citizen of Australia, and I know that many people tend to cluster in ethnic enclaves. I think being an Australian is more than a name on a piece of paper. However, being an Australian does not mean looking like Crocodile Dundee. One can have any appearance and still be an Australian.

I was born in the United States and am of Russian Jewish ancestry. My wife was born in Australia, and her parents are from Norway. We live in Prins Willem Alexander village. It was set up by the Dutch Australian community, and about 60% of the people here are from the Netherlands. I am a 94 year old English speaking, blue eyed, blond (hair now white) atheist.

I think it is great to have knowledge of other languages and cultures, but I really am pretty well confined to English. I grew up in the United States where my parents who knew many languages subscribed to the melting pot ideology of the time and spoke nothing but English. I am reading Lord Byron’s poem “Don Juan” and am enjoying it.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/21700/21700-h/21700-h.htm is its url.

I took courses in Chinese history at the University of Queensland. The Chinese, like the Jews, have a great respect for history. When a Chinese dynasty has been overthrown scholars of the old dynasty got together with scholars of the new dynasty to write a history of the old dynasty. I understand that communist scholars got together with Kuomintang scholars and continued this tradition. Chinese history is accurate back to 841 BCE because of this tradition.

I am passionate about the environment, peace, democracy and about the separation of religion and state. I feel it is necessary to have such a separation for a country to be a democracy.

I think you are selling yourself short and would be an excellent slave.

Mr O, you are arguably the weakest here with your defeatist attitude.

I vote you first to serve as a Chinese slave, assuming you are still fit.

If not, adios to you if the CCP takes over given your racism towards Chinese.

I will miss your humour, although you remind of the Lion in Wizard of Oz.

But, Mr O, I hope you find the courage to proudly promote the West's coming victory against evil.

I think that its clear that Scott Morrison is
putting national security as a priority over
trade. He's standing up to China and by the
looks of things will continue to do so.

His tearing up our extradition treaty with Hong
Kong and his offer to grant Hong Kong Nationals with
skilled and graduate temporary visas in Australia an
immediate five year extension is another sign that
things have taken a serious turn. That China will
no longer be able to bully us into submission.

Dear david f,

I wasn't wanting to know your life story or personal details.

When I said background I was asking about your area of expertise. Are you a historian, scientist, archaeologist, etc, to see what common grounds we have for a discussion.

I have a scholarly background in sociology, history and anthropology. I see myself as a sociologist.

Dear Mr Opinion,

I have been a professor of mathematics and computer science.

What does "I have a scholarly background in sociology, history and anthropology. I see myself as a sociologist." mean?

What have you done with those subjects? Do you have degrees? Have you taught? Have you written books?

I have read books on those subjects.

david f,

I have a BA and 2 x MAs in anthropology, history and sociology respectively. Started out with a BE in mechanical so I have a good appreciation of what you do in math and computer science.

By scholarly I mean the Arts (history, sociology, archaeology, etc.). Then comes science degrees (your area) and then vocational degrees (law, engineering, architecture, medicine, etc.).

I've always worked in engineering. I never had any ambition to be an academic.

I like sociology because it is interested in everything connected with the human experience and uses knowledge from every other discipline which suits me because I like to know about anything and everything.

Plenty of people without degrees know a lot about society

Plenty of people with degrees about society, know very little about society.

WE should always argue about points made rather than the supposed expertise of some.

Most Arts academics I have met, IMO, are dumb as dog ....

Hi David,

Strange, I haven't seen any academic or even self-styled intellectual refer to him/herself as 'scholarly'. There's something exonymic about it :)

In due course, Misopinionated will demand that you present your qualifications (while, of course, having no way, like all of us, of presenting his/her own, which leaves him/her in the clear while able to happily diminish others).

I suspect that he/she is a village idiot but one living on the outskirts of a town or city with a university campus, and he/she has fortuitously picked up an old copy of the local student newspaper, with a lot of big words in it. So he/she sits on his/her wall and shouts curses as passers-by. But nothing can be done, because he is the mayor's son (or daughter).

On a more important note, I'm happy to note that the wonderful Tom Lehrer is still going strong at 92 :)

Joe

Mr O, I have found that most first time visitors to Australia are surprised to find we are a multi cultural country. I have been informed a number of times by Americans who have never visited here that I should not comment on race politics because I live in an all white country where Aboriginals have been exterminated.

Jimmy,

Long may it be so. Dipping into nineteenth century South Australian history, I was surprised at how many Africans, West Indians and African-Americans, as well as Chinese, Malays and 'Afghans' (i.e. Marathis, Sindis, Baluchis, Sikhs, etc.) were working all over the province.

Quite a few married Aboriginal people, including a West Indian woman who married an Aboriginal bloke from up the Murray. The 'last member of the Adelaide Tribe', Evaritchi, married a West Indian bloke named Savage, born in Adelaide in 1852.

So yes, Australia has always been multicultural, like pretty much every other country in the world. Yes, even including Japan. We're all Mongrel Mob.

Joe

LOUDmouth,

It's a shame you were never able to qualify for university entry because I'm sure you would have enjoyed doing a degree.

jimmy2shoes,

Yes, that's the point I was making.

One first time visitor from the Philippines asked me "Where are all the white people?" They think of Australia as being European and they are generally quite disappointed when they visit Sydney because they reckon they could have gone to Singapore or Hong Kong for the same experience.

Misopinionated,

You're right, I did enjoy it. The last time, 20-25 years ago, I was surrounded by these wonderful Asian students, from every country, even China, as well as a few Africans.

You should try it, it might broaden your understandings of our world :)

Oops, I thought sociology was supposed to do that ? Never mind :(

Joe

LOUDmouth,

And how many degrees have you awarded yourself this week.

There are the eight in subjects A, B, C & D you told me about initially; then there was another half dozen in subjects H. I, J & K. How many have you got today? I assume they'll be in X, Y & Z. Don't want to be doing the same thing more than once, do you?

Hey guys, peace be with you.

We all brothers and sisters in the coming Cold War.

Mr O is in training right now to play a leading role in Australia's Dad Army.

We will accept 5 chinups and 30 pushups to make the cut.

here I am doing 14 at end of 2017, so get moving Mr O if you want to make the team.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ5Zy0XsnW0

one you get to 5, we will undertake a mental state test to see if you have eliminated your defeatist attitude.

All the best Mr O

Chris,

I have no intention of fighting the Chinese to protect the Chinese.

No, I get that.

You are one of those who abandons a team to jump on a perceived winner.

Chris,

With the introduction of multiculturalism there was never going to be a Team Australia.

Might just be the underlying reason America does not have a multicultural policy as a way of maintaining a patriotic agenda: USA! USA!

I come from a good gene pool with a long life expectancy and I intend to get to the end point. If you want to lay down your life for a lost cause then be my guest.

Misop,

"Introduction of ... " Do you mean back in 1788 ? Australia has been multicultural since 1788. We've all been the product of it: in my case, from Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Sweden and England, and maybe from the West Indies as well. My kids could add Indigenous Australia and China to that beautiful mix. Of course, in your case, we might have to add in somewhere extra-planetary.

Don't they teach you anything in history and/or sociology ? Perhaps that might happen in second year, so give yourself time.

I did meet a lovely bloke who was a sociologist, when I enrolled at Flinders back in 1978: I apologised that I was a mature-age student. "Don't worry, so was I," he replied. Name of Leon Mann. Look him up :)

Joe

Mr O, there will always be a Team Australia, and it has nothing to do with what race you descend from.

Please wise up. I know you can do it.

LOUDmouth,

Just out of curiosity how much do you charge to haunt a house?

MR O, the US is a very divided country in racial terms?

As a sociologist, can you advise to OLO readers why this is the case?

There has been for some years, this phrase called "critical thinking" (from the Greek 'kritikos' - "able to make judgments)," which has pervaded academia in all disciplines from law to medicine to arts. It is a misnomer, an oxymoron in the same vein as "military intelligence" along with "common sense". For the Marxists, Feminists and others have seen to it that any 'criticism' is directed at the likes of those who disagree with them. Any 'thinking' must be in accord with the comrades. Therefore we see the rise of these critical thinkers, handing out summary judgments on all & sundry. Coming up through the ranks, many even finishing their apprenticeships in various think tanks or institutes of study & eventually into policy making where we have the electorate suitably dumbed down by watching Sunrise, Good Morning Australia, The Morning Show, etc allowing them into our lounge rooms daily, ultimately conjuring up social experiments like the Family Law Act (1974) under architects Lionel Murphy and Gough Whitlam. Continuing to visit unmitigated misery from its beginning, with fatal ramifications nearly 50 years later. Under the Howard government we saw creeping fascism, evident in the erosion of our personal freedoms, removal of common law rights and even draconian measures such as the raft of Surveillance legislation enacted. Various ALP & LNP misdemeanours along the way to detract our collective thoughts from more pressing issues in the Roman fashion of 'panem et circuses' (bread and circuses). And what of China this topic asks? It has not been an invasion as such, like Pauline Hanson might suggest, but more of a small & steady stream of ideological changes over some 25 years. That the CCP has ensured us a source of enquiring minds from their fresh crops of critical thinkers into our annual intake of students is no insignificant matter. Like the Japanese prior to WW2 who came here as geologists, scientists, engineers and academics who then went traipsing over our Sunburnt Country taking photos, soil samples, hydrographic data and detailed maps, likewise the Chinese have set up the next phase of their expansionist programme.

Got out of sociology after first year. I hated it, and anthropology.

I preferred history/politics.

Foy stated on other thread

"We need to promote
greater knowledge - policy makers, scholars, and the media
need to work together and disseminate China knowledge
and research. This would help understanding of the issues
and put news stories in context".

Good luck with that Foxy.

At least they will have you to read their material that I am confident will be mostly rubbish written after the horse has long bolted.

You can listen to what people like Wong, Rudd and Evans will say. And, yes the Libs have Bishop and co.

I will listen to what the US Congress and President will have to say, as the latter will drive Australia's policy response too.

A small nation, one in the Asian region, without powerful friends is really a sitting duck waiting to be taken advantage of.

And if the US commitment to Australia is not real, we will have to arm with whatever it takes.

That is the real world rather than the world that some (like you) would have us believe.

Dear Chris,

You're entitled to trust and believe in whoever
you want. I've made my position clear on what I
think. I do not hold views just for the sake of
supporting or opposing the Chinese government.
I find it is possible to have a variety of views
on this complex subject and I have no intention of
discrediting or delegitimising oppsing voices.

If you want to engage in doing that - count me out.

IMO, and my hope, it is important that the need for an aggressive cold war approach is not softened by useless talkfests.

Unless we can find someone who can make sense to a corrupt CCP hell bent on changing the world for its benefit, perhaps even the son of God could make an appearance, then I suspect a Cold War will be as good as it gets.

If Sportsbet would take bets on the Cold War, I would back the West, but it would have to be treated as a long-term investment, given that the victory will take years

one of my former university tutors, now a professor, did not have much useful to say on the ABC yesterday about China.

About the only sensible point he made was that the CCP would look elsewhere for mineral imports.

Pretty obvious really

Dear Chris,

The People's Republic of China like many other countries
is actively trying to influence public debates around
the world to its own advantage. I think it is in Australia's
national interest that we continue to discuss China's role
in the world and to debate how Australia should respond to
the challenges posed by China. This is a conversation that
should be based on facts and the merits of the argument not
in insinuation of intention.

As I mentioned earlier a couple of suggestions for improving
the quality of the debate:

1) Stop personal attacks.
2) Promote greater knowledge - scholars, policy makers,
economists, national security experts, and even the media
need to work together and disseminate China knowledge and
research. This would help improve understanding of the
issues and put news stories in context. It's in our own
interests. The US is going to look after their interests
first and foremost.

Chris,

Japanese justified its invasion of SE Asia on the grounds that it was protecting its supplies of raw materials (oil, rubber, etc. - the sorts of things it needed to run a war).

China will probably come up with the same excuse. I assume Australia will be top of the list.

Foxy, you have no hope of convincing me with your rubbish about talkfests.

If you want to make a point with evidence about why we should find middle ground, go for it.

But I am not interested in your rhetoric, or pleas to how we should conduct our debates.

I say to you don't rely on talkfests from supposed elites, you will only be disappointed.

Make your own points.

Dear Chris,

All I am advocating is the promotion of greater knowledge
on China. This would help improve understanding of the
issues and put news stories in context.

An understanding of any subject or issue helps in knowing
how to deal with the challenges involved and helps to
eliminate mistakes being made. The less you know, the more
you're disadvantaged.

BTW = I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm
merely giving you my opinion.

Dear Foxy,

«I think it is in Australia's
national interest that we continue to discuss China's role
in the world and to debate how Australia should respond to
the challenges posed by China.»

Such discussions should definitely occur, but not in public as it would spoil the whole surprise-factor and jeopardise our defense.
It is a matter for our best military strategists and generals and must be classified as "Top Secret".

Yuyutsu,

You've been watching too many James Bond movies.

Dear Mr. Opinion,

I have no need for movies because this, unfortunately, is not the first war I have been into in real life.

It was not my choice then, nor is it mine or yours now, but we still have one choice open to us, even if your judgement of "lost cause" is correct: to die an honourable death, or to die like a dog licking communist boots.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I fully agree. It should be done out of the
media spotlight.

concern and strategy about the CCP would already be occuring in secret.

pretty obvious.

Does not need public talkfests. Anyone with any reasonable knowledge or interest about the CCP would know what is going on, except those in la la land like the humanities.

Great to see the Brits reconsidering Huwaei.

That reminds me I need to go through the politics journals to see how Aust's supposed great universities have been going with the Chinese issue since many of them also now print in chinese.

there are some good articles out there supporting Australia to back the US, mostly from strategic experts that have a much better grasp of reality.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10357718.2019.1632261?src=recsy

last paragraph sums it up nicely

"In this new era of prolonged and comprehensive competition with China, Australia needs to be willing to pay a greater premium for America’s continued leadership in the Indo-Pacific which still remains its best option for continued security and prosperity".

Chris,

Going by this news item today it looks like you have got your wish for a Cold War against China:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-15/australia-set-join-india-us-japan-malabar-naval-exercise-china/12455576

The US and its allies have just upped the stakes with a containment strategy to halt China's predatory expansion.

Mr O,

I think that this approach was inevitable.

After all, how much can a koala bear.

Chris,

Imagine what it will be like in Australia now that we have a Cold War with China.

With several million Chinese in Australia there will obviously be a lot of wariness in the local community. There'll be a lot of reds under the bed now.

I don't know.

When the Americans fought the English, did the many Yanks of English descent side with the English?

Just asking Mr O.

Dear Chris,

How much can a koala bear?

Actually a great deal.

He's koalified.

Check his koalafications.

But Mr O, I am researching the issue of loyalty to Australia by our Chinese community. Really fascinating questions, albeit difficult to answer.

If you find any useful links, please attach.

Glad you raised the issue given the pressure the CCP places on chinese living abroad.

MR O

here is the CCP approach

Among this diaspora, carrots and sticks are deployed to recruit agents. The carrots are promises of good jobs and houses if and when they return to China. The sticks include refusing visas and threats to harm families.

Chinese students studying abroad are a particular focus. Graduate students may become sleeper agents, activated only if they find themselves in jobs with access to desirable information, particularly if it is of scientific, technological or military value.

A programme called the Thousand Talents Plan aims to recruit highly qualified ethnic Chinese people to ‘return’ to China with the expertise and knowledge they’ve acquired abroad. Alternatively, those loyal to China can ‘remain in place’ to serve.

The U.S. Department of Energy, whose work includes nuclear weapons and advanced R&D on energy, has been heavily targeted to this end. Around 35,000 foreign researchers are employed in the department’s labs, 10,000 of them from China. In Silicon Valley, around one in ten high-tech workers is from mainland China.

According to one report, so many scientists from the science and technology labs of Los Alamos have returned to Chinese universities and research institutes that people have dubbed them the ‘Los Alamos club’.

Dear Chris Lewis,

When the US fought the English about one-third were Loyalists, one-third were revolutionaries and one-third were neutral. In the early stages all thought of themselves as English and wanted representation in parliament. One revolutionary slogan was, "Taxation without representation is tyranny". The crown employed many Hessians (German mercenaries) to fight for it.

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/american-revolution-faqs

"Over the course of the war, about 231,000 men served in the Continental Army, though never more than 48,000 at any one time, and never more than 13,000 at any one place. The sum of the Colonial militias numbered upwards of 145,000 men. France also dispatched a substantial force to North America beginning in 1779, with more than 12,000 soldiers and a substantial fleet joining the Colonial Americans by wars end.

At its peak, the British Army had upwards of 22,000 men at its disposal in North America to combat the rebellion. An additional 25,000 Loyalists, faithful to Great Britain, participated in the conflict as well. Nearly 30,000 German auxiliaries, or Hessians, were hired out by German princes and served alongside the British for the duration of the war."

thanks David, I was hoping to get some detail to what I asked.

I take it some of the troops in the Continental army also had English backgrounds, but they would have seen themselves as part of the new colony.

In WW2 the most highly decorated unit in the US army was the 442nd Infantry Regiment comprised solely of Japanese Americans.

Dear Chris,

The United States was not a new colony. It was a new country.

Considering the Hessians I think a greater proportion of the colonists had English backgrounds than those in the forces fighting for the English. Some of my American son in law's ancestors were loyalists and went to Canada after the American Revolution. The Canadian and American branches of the family keep in touch.

Dear Foxy,

There's an Australian town called Mercy which serves a wonderful, revivifying tea made from koalas. If you order it you will see little bits of koala floating about because the Koala tea of Mercy is not strained.

Dear David F.,

The Koala Tea of Mercy may not be strained
but it droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
into the cups and eager mouths beneath. It is
twice blest: It blesseth them that give and
them that receive ...

Thank you for telling me about the town of Mercy.
And those delightful Koalas whose attributes we
can enjoy with awe.

David,

in any case, my gut feeling and reading suggests that the overwhelming majority of Chinese Australians embrace Austalia for what it is and what it stands for, but they too acknowledge that there would be a very small minority that would be prone to accept CCP infleunce.

The media and other literature also shows that a small minority of non-chinese also support CCP influence one way or another.

If you embrace liberal democracy, as I do, then you must have faith that the system stands for something and will make appeal.

Most human beings are reasonable people, and people living in a decent liberal democracy can see the benefits.

While HK was not democratic in a western sense, the people there also knew what they were losing.

Dear Chris,

«the overwhelming majority of Chinese Australians embrace Austalia for what it is and what it stands for, but they too acknowledge that there would be a very small minority that would be prone to accept CCP infleunce.»

Yes, the overwhelming majority of Chinese Australians embrace Australia and hate the CCP. However, many still have relatives in China (or Hong-Kong) and as normal/frail human beings, they do not want to risk their loved ones broken into spare parts for aging CCP members.

We love them, but also for their own good, unless we are able to bring over their relatives, they should only have access to supervised, less-responsible positions.

Chris,

Re your questions for numbers in revolutionary America I don't know much on figures other than to say that there were 2.5 million people in the colonies and after the war about 60,000 elected to migrate to Canada so I would say that the Americans had quite a lot of local support.

Yuyutsu,

you make a solid point about pressure on chinese Australians from CCP.

This reality cannot be ignored.

This cannot be ignored either:

http://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/china-australia-newspapers-say-advertisers-withdrawing-due-to-china-pressure-20191011-p52zrd.html

Apparently Chinese Australian newspapers are also feeling the
pressure from China.

Chris,

Do you sincerely believe that Chinese migrants in Australia particularly those on temporary or permanent residency visas have undivided loyalty to Australia?

Their loyalties will be to their ancestral homeland. If you were a temporary or permanent resident in China and hostilities broke out between Australia and China I'm sure you would be on the first plane back to Australia to support your homeland. The same will go for the Chinese in Australia.

It's only people like Foxy who can bring themselves to believe otherwise because they think everybody yearns for the big Kumbaya fest where we all hold hands with each other and dance around telling each other how nice we all are.

Mr O, I am optimistic, but would not be surprised what happens

Mr O,

I see that you're tempted to categorise people or their
views into "pro China" panda huggers or "anti-China"
dragon slayers. Dividing people into these 2 camps is
really unhelpful as it does give the illusions that
everyone allegedly in the same camp is united in a
common view and that people of different camps disagree
on everything. This is a false belief.

People with strong views on China do not hold views just for
the sake of supporting or opposing the Chinese government.
It is possible to hold two views at once. Someone can
advocate for trade with China and at the same time condemn
China for its human rights abuses.

In a democracy such as Australia it is important that we do
not question people's integrity or loyalty based on their
political views or policy positions. Ad hominem attacks
that try to tag people as "communists"or "useful idiots"
are a means to discredit and delegitimize opposing voices.
But using these attacks avoids the effort of engaging with
arguments and evidence.

Also the question of "loyalty"does tremendous harm to the
Chinese communities in particular to Chinese Australians as
well as Chinese International students all of whom are entitled
to exercise their democratic rights, just as everyone else,
including freedom of expression.

I shall repeat that it is in Australia's national interest that
we continue to contemplate China's role in the world and to
debate how Australia should respond. But this is a
conversation that needs to be conducted based on facts and the
merits of the argument not on insinuation of intention.

If you are unable to do that - start your own discussion on the
topic. Kindly do not attempt to divert mine.

Thank You.

MR O, apparently you have been told what you can say and cannot say, but I am not getting involved. LOL.

MR O, the funny thing is thread title mentions invasion?

But apparently you should not be allowed to express your opinion that Chinese here could also be a factor.

Hilarious stuff.

And we are supposed to be defending democracy.

Foxy,

Thanks for the suggestion but I quite like this discussion topic.

So obviously you think that Chinese migrants are drawn to Australia because of their undivided loyalty to the Australian nation-state.

I totally disagree with you. I think they're here for the economic and monetary advantages they can squeeze out of the country and the only thing they will be fighting to protect is their property.

Maybe you can change their minds, telling them how we are all in this together and differences don't matter. I'm sure they will turn their backs on their ancestral homeland and sign up for the Big Kumbaya that's coming their way.

Mr O,

With all due respect all I can suggest is that you go back
and read my previous post. And do try not to put words
into my mouth.

Thank You.

The same goes for you Chris. And no - it's not hilarious.
It's your misinterpretation of what I am saying.

Foxy,

As a sociologist I look for the underlying reasons behind what people do. I look beyond the facade in a similar fashion that a historian would look beyond dates and names to understand what had happened and the reasons for it.

You don't want people to think badly of the situation the world is having with the Chinese and I am trying to work out the reason for that.

It looks to me that you have a vested interest in maintaining a pro-China stance in Australia and I'm just curious as to the reason. At this stage I'm assuming you have business interests with the Chinese that might become jeopardised if there is a growing anti-Chinese movement in Australia.

Mr O,

I have no business interests in or with China.
I am against human rights abuses and against any
totalitarian regime.

I have explained my take on China - but if you
still chose not to get it - that's your problem
not mine.

What I do believe is that it is in Australia's interests
that we continue to debate how Australia should respond
to the challenges posed by China but this is a conversation
that needs to be conducted based on facts and the merits of
the argument not on insinuation of intention.

I've listed 3 suggestions in one of my previous posts for
improving the quality of the debate.

Foxy,

I think it is useless trying to come to terms with the Chinese.

I liked the scene in 'The Darkest Hour' when Churchill (Gary Oldman) (end of the Phoney War period) leaned across the table towards Chamberlain and growled "How do you talk to a tiger when you have your head in its mouth!"

I think this is the position Australia is now in. To me the best message that Australia can send China is to return their nationals to them in order to show the extent to which we are willing to defy it. The message is that if Australia will not cower to the Chinese then maybe the rest of the world will refuse to cower as well.

Those with vested interests won't like that because it will hit their hip pocket.

Mr O,

That's precisely the reason we need to take up the
3 suggestions I offered earlier for improving the
quality of the debate:

1) Stop personal attacks.

2) Promote greater knowledge - scholars, policy makers,
economists, national security experts, and the media all
need to work together to disseminate China knowledge
and research. This would help improve understanding of
the issues and put news stories in context.

3) Reach across disciplines - scholars and policy makers
from different disciplines for example - economists and
national security - need to have fundamental discussions
about the assumptions and frameworks inherent in each
discipline.

I'm sounding like a broken record - but a simplistic
"pro China""Anti China" division ignores complex
questions and shuts down the conversation. It does not
help us to do that.

MR O,

Dont worry.

You have heard it all. We are simpletons.

We need to talk more.

So Mr O, what we will talk about.

1)The CCP's commitment to international law

2) The CCPs commitment to a decent social welfare system

3)The CCP's commitment to free speech

4 The CCP's commitment to minorities.

5)The CCP's commitment to the environment

6) The CCP's commitment to democracy

7) THe CCP's commitment to free and fair trade.

So Mr O, apparently some here saliavate at the supposed elites solving all of these issues.

Please, give us a break.

Chris,

You left China the predatory imperial expansionist akin to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan off the list.

Foxy,

I understand all of that but we have left it 30 years too late and now the imperialist Chinese juggernaut is planning to make us part of its nation-state empire.

Why do you think China was so eager to send so many migrants to Australia and tie up the Australian economy to its advantage? It has been setting up all the preconditions for a takeover. As the Chinese businesswoman in Sydney said: 'Aren't the Australians dumb!" Yes lady they sure are.

Dear Chris,

You're allowing your ideology to influence your
objectivity.

As a university graduate, which I assume you are,
surely you can do better. Or at least you should
be able to do better.

Nobody is suggesting that the CCP is anything of the things
you've listed. You're the only one suggesting them.

Mr O,

The same was said about the Soviet Regime.
And look what happened to them.

Hopefully the same will eventually happen to China.
I don't think any one of us want a war.

Foxy, thanks again for your lecture.

But please, dont bother.

Mr O, I would not bother.

Unless you are part of the elite, I dont think some here will pay you any respect.

You and I have been deemed simpletons.

Apparently, a graduate, and a university researcher which I was, are supposed to think a certain way.

Mr O, it is not about ideology, it is about objectivity.

And sadly, we have told, we have no such capacity.

I am wiping away the tears now after being told the truth.

Hilarious stuff.

Foxy,

The Soviet Union fell apart in the 1980s because Ronald Regan sent its economy into a downward spiral by making the Russians match the US dollar for dollar with the Star Wars program, being the ultimate challenge in the arms race.

Are you saying the US will attempt to do the same to China?

Mr O,

No. What I am saying is that China will crumble eventually
in the same way that the Soviet Regime did. It will come
the people.

Dear Chris,

Nobody is calling you a simpleton.

All that is being asked of you is that you as a possessor
of knowledge in the 21st century take the responsibility
to dispel ignorance and not be like the fundamentalists
who are certain that they possess the absolute truth.

It's this certainty that can lead to represent bigotry,
racism, fanaticism. And surely that is not something you want or we need.

Foxy,

Its obvious you don't understand what happened to the Soviet Union to bring it unstuck.

Probably because you are a poet not a historian or sociologist.

Mr O,

I am as much a historian and sociologist as you are.
My studies have also covered those two areas.

It was as you should have known -
Gorbachev's decision to allow elections with a multi-party
system and create a presidency for the Soviet Union that
began a slow process of democratization that eventually
destabilized Communist control and contributed to the
collapse of the Soviet Union.

China is also now irrevocably embarked on the path to
industrialization and modernization. The "old guard"
don't like it. And - therefore of course China has
a long way to go. It is still determinedly socialist and
authoritarian.

It will therefore be interesting to see how far the
country will stray from the socialist path and whether
economic liberalisation will in turn lead to political
democratization. Given China's size and potential its
economic future will be of world historical significance.

Foxy,

We all study other subjects as part of our degree program or our educational pathway. If that sort of logic applied every second person in the world could claim to be a French speaking mathematician who knows all about everything from chemistry to English literature.

It is all a matter of qualifications. Do you have bona fide degrees in history and sociology? Do you actually have a testamur that says 'Foxy ....... in History'? That's the litmus test. If you don't have the qualifications then you might as well pass yourself off as a neurosurgeon, or an astrophysicist, or a linguistic anthropologist for all it's worth.

Being a poet is quite an achievement. There are lots of ordinary vocationally trained people like engineers, architects, lawyers, doctors, etc. who would give their right arm to be writer of verse. You should be very proud of yourself. I would like have the freedom and time to write but I got stuck working in engineering.

You are wrong about not seeing Ronald Regan and the Stars War arms race as the principal cause of the Soviet collapse. But history is an interpretation of the past so if you want to accept a particular view that is a matter of choice. Keep reading (which I know you do a lot of) and one day you might change your mind and see it my way.

Mr O,

I actually have friends who lived under the
Soviet Regime through those times
prior to the collapse. They
know from experience and don't need to read books.
They lived it.

I don't question your credentials. I'd appreciate it if
you did not question mine.

Foxy,

I'm not gong to waste my time commenting on what you just said above for obvious reasons.

Mr O,

Regret for wasted time - is more wasted time.

Foxy,

Next thing you will be telling me is that you think lawyers, project home builders, politicians and car salesmen are honest and trustworthy people.

Mr O,

No. I don't make a habit of resorting to sweeping statements
and generalisations about people. Because that does not
allow for individual differences. As a supposed student of
sociology you should also adhere to doing that.

However from your posts unfortunately you seem to have
some rather inflexible attitudes towards entire categories
of people. Which is unfortunate and is a key feature of
prejudice.