Two women charged over alleged defacement of
Captain Cook's statue in Sydney Hyde Park
has made the news recently. As has Winston
Churchill's statue - which was boarded up in
London. Then there's Edward Colston who made
a fortune in the 17th century from the slave
trade. His statue was toppled and thrown into
the harbour in Bristol, England.

Historical statues across the world have been
removed or defaced amid the Black Lives
Matter protests after the death of Afro-American
George Floyd in Minneapolis, May 25th.

Our country is littered with weathered bronze
statues of men standing proudly with one foot
forward and a plaque beneath them describing their
triumphs. An article in "Crikey" tells us.

We've recently had the statues of our former
Prime Minsters - John Howard and Tony Abbott
spray painted with derogatory statements added
to their bronze statues in Ballarat's "PMs Avenue",
in their Botanical Gardens.

The claim is that many of these white men (they're
almost all white men) have committed crimes and
massacres. That's the rational behind the
defacement of these historical statues.

I think that most of us would agree that the defacement of
any property should not be tolerated.

However, the question is - should any of these statues
fall? And if so, which ones?

The following link explains further:

http://www.crikey.com.au/2020/06/11/looking-to-rewrite-history-here-are-a-few-places-to-start/

Black Lives Matter and if there are any statues of the Black Africans who sold many thousands of their fellow Black Africans into slavery then they should be left alone to remind their fellow black Africans and others of the benefits of enterprise and free trade.

Hi Foxy,

Good to see the WA government standing up and making amends for the wrongful deeds of the past. That is, the naming of a mountain range in the states north 'The King Leopold Ranges' which are named after the former king of Belgium, whose atrocities and violent reign in the Congo Free State led to up to 10 million deaths. That would be as bad as the Germans renaming the Danube River the Hitler River. Not that the Germans would get any protest from certain members of the Forum, in fact they would be applauding the move. I would take it to the local aboriginal community and get their naming rights for that mountain range.

BTW; After reading about that statue of that old codger Edward Colston in Bristol England, it is where it belongs, in the drink!

Many of the wife's people detest many of those colonial statues in NZ.

In Otahuhu there's a 13-metre-tall monument honouring Colonel Marmaduke Nixon who, 200 years ago, was an early settler in the region.

Nixon was also the commander in charge of colonial cavalry forces which stormed the Waikato village of Rangiawhia, killing women, children and the elderly.

He had the town church torched which killed the people who were hiding inside.

There are many more examples of murderous colonial figures displayed around New Zealand, as there is in Australia.

Is Mise and Paul,

Thank You for your comments. I hesitated before putting
this subject up for discussion as I know that it is a
controversial topic and feelings can run high.

I have mixed feelings on this topic.

For example in Ballarat's Avenue of former Prime Ministers
the avenue celebrates all of our PMs, regardless of their
political affiliations and they form a key part of our
history as a nation. I think it's pure vandalism to
deface any one of them.

As to the other statues? I have to admit that I'm uneasy
about defacement of any of them. We should learn from history
not brush it aside or shove it away.

Perhaps if another plaque could be added to some of the statues
describing the full stories of what was done (not only the
positives but the negatives as well), telling the full story
might help - and make it more acceptable?

I don't know. I'll have to give it more thought.

At the moment I don't think that defacing something or
trying to destroy something is the answer.

Hi there Foxy,

"I hesitated before putting
this subject up for discussion as I know that it is a
controversial topic"

Totally agree, I myself never like to put up any controversial topics, as I am very sensitive to the feelings of the Forums "wally brigade"! Just as they are of my little sensitive feelings.

If people don't want to participate in controversial topics then they should get the hell out of here, or join the other forum I am so passionately involved in 'Flower Arranging for Fun and Profit'.

Now on this topic, what about all those statues of Saddam Hussein. Here's the Yanks, giving poor old Sad the horizontal rumba.

And then there's our mate Issy, down at Gunnie HQ he might want to erect a monument to one of the gunnie super hero's, Leopold II of Belgium since he's losing his mountain range.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWxszYK6IPU

Dear Paul,

Different countries have different ways of commemorating
their heroes. One country's hero may be another's villain.
Some countries avoid it, or try to avoid it as much as
they can While others go over the top. Of course politics
also comes into play, as does religion.

Just a few examples - in Russia there are
statues of Stalin, Lenin, and others that we in the West
would not approve of.

Jewish aversion to memorializing
leaders is rooted in the Jewish prohibition of idolatry.
Jewish tradition does not encourage admiring individuals.
But rather admiring ideals.

Therefore in Israel there's very few statues.Except for a
few individuals considered worthy like -
former
Prime Minister David Ben Gurion, but he's only got
a bust in Tel
Aviv airport. Former PM Yitzhak Rabin is honoured in
also in
Tel Aviv, Alfred Mund in Tel Mund, and Raoul Wallenberg
in North Tel Aviv.

Did you know that there are no Nazi statues in Germany?
The following link explains:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/20/why-there-are-no-nazi-statues-in-germany-215510

Dear Paul,

Can we learn something from Germany as far as their
history goes? Should we follow suit?

Foxy,
You & Paul1405 will never learn, that much you've proven by now ! But, if you are interested try to get your hands on the video documentary of Madagascar's prisons.
I'm sure you'll find it extremely confronting but I'm not sure it's enough to wake you up !

Come on Indy, Foxy is being rather even handed on this, don't put her in the same basket as me. I'm more likely to say I'd like to take the old Captain Cook and shove him where the sun don't shine. Foxy would never say that to you.

Ah Foxy! In Victorian times they had a penchant for erecting monuments/statues all over the place. A statue of Price Albert might pop up in the middle of the town square in some dust bowl in Australia. All for no other reason than the town, back in the day, wanted something nice in its centre, to offset the dust.

There's always controversy with there things. Ben Gurion, for some a Zionist terrorists, for others an Israeli freedom fighter, depending which side of the fence you are on. That applies to many of the past hero's/villeins.

There's always a case to be made, Tony Abbott, he was a Jesuit, Jesuits were involved in the slave trade in South America. John Howard, Howard was an active supporter of the war in Vietnam, our side committed war crimes in Vietnam, there goes Howard and Abbott.

Just as the winners write the history, they also erect the monuments. Rather than erecting anymore pigeon roosts, btw with some, pigeons have the right idea, I would like to see in parks and other locations more history being told through plaques and photos etc. Brisbane council through local historical societies has done a bit of that, far more interesting than some old bloke covered in pigeon poo.

As for the Germans, they suffered some embarrassment by losing the war, so monuments to the fuhrer might not have gone down all that well. Had they won, that would be another john dory!

The germans started the War but who made it a World War ?

I hear that these people want to tear down the statue of The Thinker (http://pearlsofprofundity.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/the-thinker-1.jpg) in the Vic Art Gallery since it represents everything the left is opposed to.

Foxy, you started the thread, so which statues were you thinking of possibly taking down.

I think that is a fair way to start debate.

Any other way will provoke an angry response.

And in this case, I don't that is fair

Regardless of how people feel about these statues, they are part of our history, cultural symbols of the society that evolved into what we have today. They are no less important than the cave paintings in the Kimberley or ancients sites of occupation thousands of years ago. Those old indigenous sites could have been the scene of brutality and murder but they are counted as vital to the history of this country and the statues are no different. They represent the beliefs held at that time, our version of song lines, which are stories attached to physical symbols, a method of remembering the past for indigenous people.
Our history is what made us who we are now, and is no less important than the history of any other culture.

Thank You so much for your comments and for your
civility in expressing them.

Basically my view is as I've stated previously but
perhaps did not make it quite clear - we should
learn from history not air-brush or shove it away.
Therefore, the statues should be retained but their
whole history should be given. Good and bad.
They definitely should not be defaced. Doing so is
vandalism.

Regardless of our politics - these statues are a part of
our history as a nation.

I would also like to see our Indigenous people become a
part of our War Museum in Canberra. Having those who served
our nation and died as a result - they too should be
memorialized along with the others who are.

ok, I don't see what removing any statue will achieve.

But, those caught up the moment, as usual, will.

The vandalism of the Howard and Abbott statues is a complete disgrace, and an example of how dumb some people can be

In 2001 the Taliban destroyed two statues of Buddha...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/video/world/taliban-destroys-bamiyan-buddha-statues-in-2001/2015/07/29/8e0c35ca-362f-11e5-ab7b-6416d97c73c2_video.html

Exact same mentality or lack thereof with the urge to destroy here.
The same thing happened when the Soviets destroyed Churches and church records under Stalin - an act of historic vandalism orders of magnitude greater than the Buddha destruction.





If the aim of these people is to destroy the memory of anyone who has any sort of moral question mark over them, then where does it end. Who doesn't have something in their closet that wouldn't justify 'cancelling' by the righteous mobs?

Socrates and Plato were slave owners. Gone? Marcus Aurelius? The Parthenon was partially slave built. Tear it down. Coliseum? Pantheon? Vatican?
Those who signed the Magna Carta were slave owners. Tear it up.
And so it goes. Struth, they're even going after Gandhi now.

The mentality of the historically ignorant mobs is that we are so pure and righteous and un-racist that we must erase the past which was all of those things. Its the Year Zero mentality which led inexorably to the Killing Fields.

Its the mentality of 1984 - who controls the present controls the past. Understanding the past is too hard, let's just destroy it instead

Something positive is also happening.

According to The New Daily newspaper - there are
thousands of people gathering in London to "guard"
the statue of Winston Churchill as fears it will be
further vandalised grow.

Apparently some protesters have clashed with police and
were seen to be throwing things at officers and their
horses.

Here at home Victorian police are on alert and are
watching Captain Cook's heritage listed cottage in
Melbourne's Fitzroy Gardens after the statue of Captain
Cook was vandalised in Sydney's Hyde Park. It became a
focus of anti-racist protests. It has since been boarded
up and fenced off.

In Ballarat the statues of John Howard and Tony Abbott
have been wrapped and also fenced off.

The police are doing their job. And should be commended for
it.

According to newspaper reports - statues of explorers
and slave traders are being targeted as a painful
reminder of the Indigenous Peoples'ancestors sufferings
at the hands of the British Empire. This is the rational
being given as figures from The Guardian state that
between 1794 and 1928 there were at least 270 Frontier
Massacres of Aboriginal People.

We're told that these protests are part of the "Black
Lives Matter" protests currently sweeping the globe.
And there have been renewed calls to destroy or
vandalize these statues.

However, people are beginning to take action against
these protestors - as the guarding of the statue of
Winston Churchill in London shows.

The actions of vandalism could have a derogatory effect.
Most people are becoming disgusted with these attempts at
destruction.

Nobody would object to the full truth being told - but
attempts to destroy - do not sit well with most rational
people.

Dear Chris,

I don't believe in taking down ANY of these statues.

I do believe in telling the WHOLE truth however.
The Good and the bad.

There are those who insist argue that there's no
such thing as "objective history". Some call for
uncompromising indictments of all deemed guilty,
while others if not denying the guilt of the
"defendant," may argue extenuating circumstances
ranging from - those were the times they lived in.

As I've stated many times in the past - a historian
can establish that an act took place on a certain
day, but this, by historical standards, constitutes
only chronology, or "factology".

The moment the historian begins to look critically at
motivation, circumstances, context, or any other such
considerations, the product becomes unacceptable for one
or another camp of readers.

I think it was Paul who stated on this thread that -
history is written by the victors. And most countries
prefer to think their leaders, explorers, were men
of good character and worthy of being memorialized.
And to demean any of them you do so at your own peril.

In our country - it is time that the entire truth be told
regarding the treatment of our Indigenous People.
But not to the extent of defacing our historical statues.
Simply adding additional information to them - for the
telling of the entire stories.

Not asking for much.

Foxy,

The left whinge activists are following the example of Germany. In the 1930s the Nazis used to burn the books etc of those whose viewpoints they found offensive.

yes, are they any better than other extremists.

Even symbolic change, such as destroying a select few statues, will annoy many people, thus worsening race relations.

but we know what it is like. one day, someone gets up and decides they want their home rebuilt or repainted in different colours.

For a while, they are happy. But then start whinging again.

Yes, point out past atrocities, but no need to destroy the past, all of which helps us understand how Australia did progress.

All that is needed is an additional plaque underneath that may help enlighten readers about the true story.

Paul & Foxy,

We should never forget our history. We can't reverse it, but we also shouldn't ignore it, or think that we can purge it.

Why not put detailed plaques on any offending statue ? e.g. on that statue in Otahuhu:

"Nixon was the commander in charge of colonial cavalry forces which stormed the Waikato village of Rangiawhia during the Maori Wars, killing women, children and the elderly.

"He had the town church torched which killed the people who were hiding inside.

"He was a total bastard."

That sort of thing. Or

"Cook sailed along the eastern coast of the Australian mainland, commanding the first ship ever to do so. He noticed in his Journal that he was never out of sight of Aboriginal camp-fire smoke."

Or

"Arthur Phillip was the first administrator in history to proclaim that there never would be slavery in any domain that he was responsible for."

Of course, we can dig up Phillip's bones (in Bath, I think ?) and kick them around the graveyard for what happened long after he was gone, that can be so satisfying.

Plaques would be effective ways to teach the young what happened instead of their being completely oblivious, which they would be if the statues and plaques weren't there at all, don't you think ?

For example, "On this site, here in South Australia in the nineteenth century, the Aborigines Department had its one-man office, from where he sent out a vast array of rations to up to seventy ration depots across the colony."

That sort of thing. Active truth-telling, not burying or forgetting the truth, or pretending that something didn't happen at all ?

Joe

As for that bastard Colston in Bristol: why not a small museum or little exhibition room, staffed by highly-experienced librarians, with a diorama and explanations all around the walls about slavery, about Colston and the atrocities that were committed in the slave trade - from capture, overland transport to coastal depots, then across the Atlantic, and people worked to death in the Americas ?

I think I had a gr-gr-gr-grandfather born in a dockland suburb of Bristol: Bedminster, across the River Avon from Colston's statue. So says Ancestry.com. I was happy to see him hit the drink, but maybe they could put him back up, perhaps trouser-less, a la Mussolini, with a series of plaques or as above.

Never forget history, even if it can't be reversed. BECAUSE it can't be reversed.

Joe

Joe, I think it is even more than that.

History should tell us that the deeds of the past were often done in a belief of progress.

you have to tell the entire story, so a detailed plaques can inform the viewer.

Destroying great works of art are just silly.

as for Howard and Abbot, who knows what plaques should be.

I believe both are very decent people, but people who were willing to air concerns in the name of debate. They both shifted their views in time

I agree that the telling of the whole truth of our
past histories is vital, and - by adding extra plaques to
monuments, is an excellent way to rectify things.

Having said that, we should also consider the other side
of the coin when debating these issues and consider the
fact that - the
destruction and/or removal of some monuments may be
useful in times when a difficult past becomes too
painful to relate to. such as the removal of monuments erected
by the Nazi and Soviet regimes during the second World
War.

In former Soviet occupied countries in Eastern Europe, for
example, statues of the dictators, Stalin, Hitler, et al,
have been removed. In
Lithuania Stalin, Lenin's statues have been
housed in a remote park for
those that want to view them as a curiousity.

It's important to point out that history and memory are
not the same. We don't need Stalin or Hitler monuments or
statues to remind us of the history of the second World War.

Removing a memorial does not remove history. But the act
changes how it will be remembered. As Germany has proven
by removing all of its Nazi memorabilia.

In the case of the United States it may be about correcting
injustice by removing symbolic monuments that honour
America's slave history which shelters discrimination and
oppression inflicted upon non-whites.

I don't agree with the removal of monuments
but I can understand that their removal is
important to some so that their societies
can be healed of their painful pasts, which needs to occur for
their countries to move on.

I can understand their point of view, even though I don't agree
with it.

Foxy,

Why in God's name do we want statues of John Howard and Tony Abbott?

Unless at the foot it reads SCUMBAG LAWYER.

What next? Americans put Donald Trump's face on Mt Rushmore? They might just be able to fit it into that space between Roosevelt and Lincoln.

Dear Foxy,

As a frequent walker around Lake Wendouree I have often detoured through the busts. I am pretty certain some of the artists were sculpting a little tongue in cheek but be that as it may they are bronze figures and I'm not sure a dab of paint in going to do any permanent damage.

I know Abbott's statue was earmarked when he signalled his support for Pell. In a town whose children have suffered terribly through the abuse of the Catholic Church at the very least enabled by Pell I am not surprised that he was revisited. Not a popular man.

Are we just talking of historic statues, or the Marxist political agenda in removing them. It has been a Greens staff member that is responsible for defacing Cooks Statue. George Floyd's figure in this action was initially displayed in every rally. Next we will have a monument to George Floyd, a criminal known to the police who murdered him. His record of crime including home robbery with fire arms on a pregnant woman, yet he was held up with celebrity status.

I saw a Youtube video the other day where outrage was expressed because a white Police Officer gave the OK sign to the camera. Instantly, the racists complained how racist this OK was because "it was very likely a White Power" gesture ??.
When a million or more black protesters do the "Black Power" gesture, not a whimper is heard from anyone !

Today, as protesters deface or destroy statues much of the World applauds, when ISIS destroyed statues much of the World protested.

Depends on the point of obsession.

I have been saying for years that secularist and Isis have much in common. Anyone who can't see that is totally blind. The promoters of porn in the name of free speech are the same degenerates pulling down statues of people whose characters were generally had far more good character than todays regressives.

"history is written by the victors"

Often said...rarely true. Just something people say to sound erudite.

The plaques on statues aren't meant to be a biography of the subject. Its merely an identifier. The plaque is bit like a headstone. The trouble is that for many people, anything over the twitter 280 character limit is too much to handle so they want a plaque to tell them what to think. IF they want a full history then perhaps include the relevant Wikipedia QR code on the plaque!

We think of ourselves as so much more sophisticated than our ancestors. Yet behind all this is the primitive thought that the statue somehow captures the essence of the original person and that desecrating the statue affects the man.....who's dead and couldn't give a damn.

Mr O,

Ballarat's avenue of former Prime Ministers celebrates
them all regardless of their politics and it is a key
part of our history as a nation.

Therefore Mr Howard and Mr Abbott having been two of our
former PMs had to be included.

Hi Steele,

It actually did not occur to me that our two former PMs
could be earmarked because of their support of Cardinal
Pell. But what you're saying does make sense considering
the sad history of Ballarat's child abuse.

Josephus,

I'm not aware of any "Marxist political agenda" for the
removal of monuments. Also totalitarian regimes as history
has shown are usually big on keeping memorials (and military
parades). They like having exhibits of power. So as a
general rule they retain their monuments not remove them.
It's their victims that want the monuments removed.

Is Mise,

You're comparing the protesters with ISIS?

That's interesting.

"Science flies you to the moon.
Religion flies you into buildings".

runner,

Hope is a critical virtue of Christian life.
The one who has hope lives differently.
Hope encourages us to act as though there
is more to life than meets the eye.
This is a call that many can hardly bear to hear.
We can but live in hope that some of us do.

Foxy,

No probs!

But still nothing stopping someone from putting SCUMBAG LAWYER at the foot of their statues.

"history is written by the victors"
mhaze,
Lately, history is edited by those who cannot accept it when it's contrary to their indoctrination !

Foxy,

ISIS destroyed statues because they saw them as profane and forbidden by Muhammad and as they were destroying in the belief that the destruction was in accord with the will of God then there is no comparison with protesters whose agenda is political.

mhaze,

"History is written by the victors".
You claim is often said, rarely true?

Well, actually it was true for at least some 22 people
who were put on trial at Nuremberg.

The quote has been ascribed to Winston Churchill but
it was reported to have been spoken first by Hermann
Goering at the Nuremberg trials. Who said it - the
victorious or the vanquished? Who knows? the English
translation of Goering's is - "The victor will always
be the judge, and the vanquished the accused".

With the allies being the judges (including the Soviets)
at Nuremberg this was certainly true for Goering and his
German compatriots.

Regarding the plaques on statues?

Of course they're not meant to be biographies but it
really would help if they did include in the identifiers
something like:

"John Howard refused to abologise to the Aboriginal
People. Not Happy John!".

Or -

"Tony Abbott was the first Australian Prime Minister
to publicly eat a whole unpeeled onion.
He believed in being prudent, frugal, and responsible".

People would get a better picture of the men.

Seriously though desecrating statues as you so astutely
pointed out would not affect the men - although in this
case it might because they're still alive. But speaking
about others - it would not affect the dead ones - simply
their memory and what they represented. So although not
fair, I think that's the whole point of doing it.

Individual,

Who are you referring to in your comment. There's so
many to choose from.

Is Mise,

So You think the protesters are political - not
frustrated, upset, or angry?
And you think that ISIS is a religious not a terrorist
organisation? And not political?

Is it because ISIS members are usually armed?
Do you associate religion with guns?

Interesting.

Foxy,

Of course, the protesters are political, remember that when a black policeman murdered a white woman in the same town in the USA none of them got upset or even a little bit angry.

ISIS are terrorists and political but, apparently, when they destroyed statues they were doing it as God's will and in accordance with their religious beliefs.

But my point was that when ISIS did it they were condemned by most of the World whereas the present statue defacement/destruction seems to be sanctioned.

pantifa (because they get their knickers in a twist) are the new left whinge Taliban.

Foxy wrote:"The quote has been ascribed to Winston Churchill but
it was reported to have been spoken first by Hermann
Goering at the Nuremberg trials."

Ascribed to Churchill but no evidence he ever said it. I looked into it many moons ago and found instances of the sentiment going back into the 18th century.
But the Nuremberg thing is an example of how people get it wrong. The trials were part of history but not THE history. The first draft if you like.
Because the history is never fully written or is always being written. The US won the revolutionary war but the poms still get a say. The Greeks won in 490bc but that history is still being written.

Indeed the only examples that I can think of where the victors wrote and utterly controlled the history were where the defeated were totally annihilated eg Carthage in 146BC and the Aztecs. Otherwise the vanquished always, eventually get a say.

So one of those pithy little sayings that sound smart but show a lack of thought.

"Tony Abbott was the first Australian Prime Minister to publicly eat a whole unpeeled onion.He believed in being prudent, frugal, and responsible".

How about..."an Australian PM who his opponents and the ABC (the same thing) said would never be able to stop the boats....and did it anyway."
People would get a better picture of the man.

Is Mise,

Black people live with murders, arrests, and
mistreatment every day because of their skin
colour in the US. It's part and
parcel of their lives. The norm.

So the murder of a
white woman would simply be regarded as a rare
occurrence - of something they have to deal with
regularly. Up until now - the murder of George Floyd
finally made them say - "Enough!"

As for ISIS being religious?

No! ISIS uses religion for their own political agenda.
Political fanaticism which is exemplified in aircraft
hijackings and terrorist bombings.

Islamic fundamentalism and why it has intensified needs
to be understood. We need to understand why some societies
instead of moving forward towards modernisation have chosen to
go backwards towards extremism. And become political.

Sociologists have observed that fundamental revivals,
extremism - in
whatever religion, take place in times when social changes
have led to turmoil, uncertainty and the erosion of
familiar values.

When people find themselves confused, threatened, or even
appalled at changing conditions, they may see a
"return to "basics" as a solution.

However, we need to start a separate discussion on this topic
this is not the place for it here.

mhaze,

If Germany had won the war the Nuremberg Trials would
not have taken place.

As for Tony Abbott "stopping the boats?"

That is questionable. An analysis by former Immigration
Department Chief John Menedue and Australian University
Migration Expert Peter Hughes shows
the drop-off occurred immediately after PM Kevin Rudd
announced in mid 2013 that asylum seekers who arrived on
unauthorised boats would never be settled in Australia.

Asylum seeker arrivals slowed dramatically after the
Labor government toughened its border stance,
suggests the Coalition "vastly overrated" its contribution.

According to an article in The Sydney Morning Herald:

"When Tony Abbott took power a few months later 'the flow of
maritime arrivals was well on its way to
being finished as a result of measures already
taken' by Labor, the analysis said, adding the Coalition's
role "was at the margins and vastly
overrated".

So perhaps on Tony Abbott's plaque your suggestions would not
be accurate. A vote would need to be taken.

Maybe we should stick with the onion after all.

Or something life -

"Tony Abbott - God's gift to Labor".

Or -

"Labor passes 500 pieces of legislation.
Tony Abbott's got a pamphlet!"

Foxy,

You might like to add that religion is another way of looking at politics.

"So the murder of a
white woman would simply be regarded as a rare
occurrence"

In the year Justine Damond was killed, 457 whites were killed by police.

For context, in that same year 223 black were killed by police, 179 Hispanics and 44 Asians.


For further context 89% of black killings are done by blacks (8% by whites) while 16% of white killings are done by blacks (81% by whites)


So perhaps police killing whites isn't quite as rare as the BLM apologists would have you believe.

Mr O,

Something to think about:

I am a Christian except with regards to:

1) asylum seekers
2) social justice
3) humility
4) honesty
5) race
6) politics
7) gender
8) sexual orientation

And the list goes on.

mhaze,

Crimes of violence are the ones that Americans fear
the most.

Violent crimes represent only a miniscule proportion
of crimes as a whole, but this is small consolation
to its victims.

A striking feature of American homicide is that a
person's prospects of becoming a murder victim varies
a great deal according to race and sex.

Blacks
represent a larger percentage of murder victims - and
many of these are slain by other blacks. Whites in
contrast are killed by whites in nearly 90 per cent of
cases.

The high involvement of American blacks in homicide results,
primarily from the profound social disaster - involving broken
families, drug abuse, poor education, and unemployment -
that has afflicted a small segment of black youth in the
ghetto "underclass".

In international terms, the United States is an extremely
violent society, with a homicide rate far exceeding that
of any other industrialized nation.

The proliferation of guns doesn't help.

So glad we live in Australia.

Foxy,
How many refugees from Western countries have successfully sought asylum in the countries from which we get the most refugees ?
Do you post on forums there ?

Individual,

Those countries are places from which refugees are
fleeing. Are you seriously suggesting that I
should post there?

But I do post to the UK, and the US - from which
many people are seeking to come to Australia.

I hope that helps clarify things for you.

Foxy,

"In international terms, the United States is an extremely
violent society, with a homicide rate far exceeding that
of any other industrialized nation."

In international terms, the Us ranks low on the homicide scale and
what has industrialization got to do with murder rates?

Russia is an industrialised nation and its murder rate is 9/100,000 whereas the US rate is 5/100,000 (2017 figures).
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5
http://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/group-eight-g8-industrialized-nations#:~:text=The%20Group%20of%20Eight%20(G8)%20refers%20to%20the%20group%20of,security%2C%20energy%2C%20and%20terrorism.

Is Mise,

The US is an industrialised country and there are
large geographic variations in its crime rates.
FBI data shows big differences from state to state
and city to city.

Chicago for example has drawn widespread attention in its
soaring murder total in recent years. The FBI notes that
various factors might influence a particular area's
crime rate, including its population density and
economic conditions.

Hi Issy, have ya got that monument up yet. Just squeeze good old Leo in between Vlad the Impaler, and Attila The Hun, so he can be seen by passer-byes. Don't go sticking him out the back with the Gunnie Club mascot Ivan The Terrible, that wont do. A few of the forum lads want to know if it would be okay to pop round and worship at the shrine of the Good Leo?

Hi Foxy, I've given this some thought, not in favour of lopping heads off statues of the likes of Chris Columbus, Cookie Boy or one or two others. Where a monument may be causing offence, the offended should be able to partition, say the local council, who usually deal with these things, stating the reasons for their grievance. A determination could be made from there, as to its suitability. Just as one of Australia's Neo-Nazis wanted pictures of Adolf Hitler in all school classrooms, he may also want a statue of the Fuhrer erected in Hyde Park Sydney. If he did there is an outside chance someone might take offence at the idea.

Foxy,

Looks like you are only using Christianity for your own devious interests, like the occasional wedding, occasional christening, occasional funeral. Shame on you, you have not morals!

Foxy,

You said that the murder of a white women would be a rare occurrence which is why there were no riots.

I showed that whites get killed by police more than blacks. So not rare.

You then changed the subject.
The reason there were no riots is that whites don't burn an loot their own suburbs when these things happen.

Usually blacks don't either. But BLM, which is an arm of the Democrats, needs to create mayhem to stop the slide of black votes to Trump. Hence the riots.

A nice summary from the great Candice Owen..."Fact: BLM riots have destroyed more innocent black lives in the last month than the police have in the last decade".

As to Abbott, this is the sort of thing that you always fall for. Yes the number of arrives declined AFTER Rudd had implemented some of Abbott's policies before the election. But even Chris Bowen admitted that the arrivals would continue. It only stopped after Abbott took over.
I recall a Q&A episode before the election where the token Liberal was mocked for thinking that the boats could be stopped. Only dumb conservatives thought that. Smart lefties knew better. Then when the boats stopped, suddenly the ABC/media decided they always knew it was easy to stop 'em.

The more things change....

An act of protest is not an excuse to do anything you want. If some one feels strongly to vandalize anything, including a statue they don't like,my hen they should feel strongly enough to take the consquences for said vandalism. Throw the book at them so they are bold ended to act like teenagers that need a punishment whenever there's something they dislike. That way, they don't do this unless it's actually worth it, and whatever consquences be damned would be worth doing what they do.

My personal opinion, no vandalism of a stature is worth it. There might be an exception to that rule, but as of now I don't know it.

Are you seriously suggesting that I
should post there?
Foxy,
Yes, most definitely ! You never know there might some who'll think about the folly of their ways & could possibly be induced to look at their situation more sanely !
Now, that'd be a good outcome ! Taking in their problems only exacerbates our problems !

Hi Paul,

I think that many people see the destruction of monuments
and statues at best as - juvenile behaviour and at worst
as vandalism that needs to be stopped.

Not sure how all this will end. I'm simply surprised
at how long its gone on for. I guess it shows how strong
the American influence is globally.

Mr O,

It's a pity that you seemed to have missed the points I was
trying to make with my summations about some Christians.

mhaze,

As I wrote to Is Mise there are large geographic
variations in crime rates. FBI data shows big differences
from state to state and city to city. Plus there are various
factors that might influence a particular area's crime
rate - including its population density, social and
economic conditions, and so on.

Reuters fact check gave FBI data - on the murders of
black people reported in the US 90% were black and 7.6%
of perpetrators were white. While on murders of white
people 83.5% were white while 13.6% were black.

As for the "great" Candace Owen? She's more like the
annointed right-wing darling who demeans her own race the way
most white people wouldn't have the guts to do.

And I won't argue with you regarding Tony Abbott and the
Coalition stopping the boats. If it makes you happy, who
am I to burst your buble.

http://www.crikey.com.au/2015/09/25/guess-who-really-stopped-the-boats-hint-not-abbott/

NNS,

I can't argue with your logic.

Individual,

I don't support fundamentalists and extremists. However
don't be stopped by me. If you feel so strongly about
contacting those people - you go right ahead.
Who knows you just may find some kindred spirits.

Paul,

Go you grow your weed in the back garden or hydroponically?

Foxy,

Don't dodge the issue, you said:
"In international terms, the United States is an extremely
violent society, with a homicide rate far exceeding that
of any other industrialized nation."

Russia is an industrialized nation and it has a murder rate of 9/100,000 whereas the rate for the US is 5/100,000 which in International terms is small.

So your statement is wrong and throwing in 'industrial' is simply trying to cloud the issue.

Now I'll make a statement, In international terms, the USA is not a violent society.

Have a go.

'As for the "great" Candace Owen? She's more like the
annointed right-wing darling who demeans her own race the way
most white people wouldn't have the guts to do.'

not nearly as much as you demean your 'race' Foxy. At least she is truthful unlike you.

Foxy, Chicagos population is 32% black, 31% European white, 28% Hispanic, 5% Asian, plus a few odds & ends.

Not a very good example of the murder rate of "America" meaning a white nation. If it has a high murder rate, & high crime rate, perhaps it indicates what happens to a city as the "white" population diminishes.

London is becoming a much less law abiding city. Could this be because it's population is now over 50% non white?

I don't support fundamentalists and extremists.
Foxy,
neither do I but unlike you I'm doing whatever I can to get people to see what happens when we don't stop them !

Is Mise,

Russia has a population of 145,934,462.
The United States has a population of 330,806,424.
Russia's population density is lower than that of
the United States but its economic conditions are worse,
hence the higher crime rates.

In international terms the United States is a violent
society. You can access either the FBI data or Reuters
fact-checks on the web.

As explained earlier - there are large geographic
variations in crime rates in the US and FBI data shows
big differences from state to state, and city to city.

Runner,

How exactly do I demean my race? You need to be more
specific.

Hasbeen,

As far as London is concerned there was a doco recently
that showed how the city has had serious problems over
hundreds of years. I don't think colour comes into play.
I think its various other factors like population density,
and the social and economic conditions.

Individual,

So you want to stop fundamentalists and extremists from
coming into this country? Don't we all.
Any suggestions as to how exactly we can do that?
I'm sure that the Immigration Department would be
grateful for any advice or suggestions you could give them.

Foxy,

Labor tried a few times to stop the flow of illegal boats and each time there was a temporary lull and they would start again. Under Abbott the boats arriving in Aus stopped completely and permanently in spite of Labor claiming that it was impossible.

You can kid yourself that Labor had it under control, but no one believes you.

'Runner,

How exactly do I demean my race? You need to be more
specific.
Just read your posts Foxy. If you can't figure it out I doubt telling you will help much.

Foxy,

"Russia has a population of 145,934,462.
The United States has a population of 330,806,424.
Russia's population density is lower than that of
the United States but its economic conditions are worse,
hence the higher crime rates."

So you admit that Russia as an industrialized nation has higher crime rates than the USA, and that you were wrong to say that the US was the most violent of industrialized nations

Progress!!

Now you might tell us what the relevance of being industrialized is.

Thank you for your admission.

As the crime rates were per 100,000 of the population then the actual population has no relevance, that's why comparative figures are usually given as a number of the population.

In world terms for murder and other crimes the US is a peaceful country.

Ten Highest for Crime:
The countries with the ten highest crime rates in the world are:

1.Venezuela (84.49)
2.Papua New Guinea (81.93)
3.South Africa (77.49)
4.Afghanistan (76.23)
5.Honduras (76.11)
6.Trinidad and Tobago (73.19)
7.Brazil (68.88)
8.Peru (68.15)
9.El Salvador (67.96)
10.Guyana (67.66)
http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/crime-rate-by-country/

Shadow Minister,

John Menadue, former secretary, Department of
Immigration and Ethnic Affairs 1980 - 83, and
Peter Hughes, senior officer in the Department of
Immigration and Citizenship for 30 years have put
to bed the myth that Tony Abbott stopped the boats.

They consider that a great piece of spin.

According to them the game changer was the announcement
by Kevin Rudd on July 19 2013, two months before the
election, that any person arriving irregularly by boat
would NOT be settled in Australia.

Boat arrivals fell quickly and dramatically as a result
of the announcement coming on top of other measures the
Labor government had already taken.

In fact we're told that Tony Abbott kept the door open
for tens of thousands of boat arrivals in the first place.
His failure to support the Malaysia Agreement
in Sept. 2011 resulted in the surge of
boat arrivals over the next two
years.

You can read more in the link I cited earlier.

runner,

Criticising the actions of some people, white or black is
not demeaning their race. The same as criticising the
actions and policies of governments, leaders, and politicians
(or US President Trump) does not equate to "hate".

We've covered this ground many times. I've stated previously
that one of the pre-requisites for democracy is the
tolerance of criticism and of dissenting opinions. They're
fundamental to democracy.

Is Mise,

You're still trying to paddle your canoe even though its
sinking.

America is a violent society. You don't have to take my
word for it. Use Google:

1) America is a violent country - Washington Post.
2) Why is America so violent? - Vanity Fair.
3) 5 facts about crime in the US - Pew Research Center.
4) America is a violent country - with or without guns -
Washington Times.

And the list goes on.

Lets go back to the topic. If you want to argue - start
your own thread.

Foxy

you argued many times along with the abc Marxist feminist that the boats could not be stopped due to push factors etc. Either you are forgetful, lying or have the onset of dementia.

Foxy,

Once again (ho-hum!) you have been proved wrong, the Us is not the most violent of the industrialized nations and you still refuse to explain why you think that industrialization has a bearing on murder rates.

You seem to forget that you are the one that brought it up, yyou posted
"In international terms, the United States is an extremely
violent society, with a homicide rate far exceeding that
of any other industrialized nation."

Perhaps Toni can aome to your aid and explain that it is all a joke.

Is Mise,

Please don't put your own interpretation on what I
actually said.

What I wrote was:

"In international terms, the United States is an
extremely violent society, with a homicide rate far
exceeding that of any other industrialized nation".

That is what I wrote and I stand by that.

A single American city like Chicago, Houston, or
Los Angeles records more murders in a typical year
than does the whole of England.

I can't be held responsible for your comprehension skills.

runnner,

You'll have to be more specific.

I'm not sure what you're on about.

Is Mise,

I can't be proven wrong for something you said,
not me.

I did not say that the US was THE MOST violent of
the industrialized nations. YOU said that.

I said the US was an extremely violent society, NOT
THE MOST violent society...

There's a big difference there. So Stop banging on about
a mistake that You wrongly made - not me.

Foxy,

"What I wrote was:

"In international terms, the United States is an
extremely violent society, with a homicide rate far
exceeding that of any other industrialized nation".

Therefore the most violent of the industrialized nations, nothing is more violent than murder, its the ultimate violence that can be done to a person.

As Russia has a higher murder rate than any other industrialized nation (citation already given) will you finally admit that the Us does not, repeat does not, have a "...homicide rate far exceeding that of anyother industrialized nation"?

runner,

Nowadays the
majority come by plane not boat! (smile).

Issy, in Denver USA, 21 year old Isabella Thallas was shot dead by home owner Michael Close while walking her dog with boyfriend Darian Simon who was wounded by Close. The couple were walking the dog when it pooed (shocking) on Close's front lawn. Close opened fire from inside his house, killing Isabella and wounding Darian.
Do you support this kind of gunnie action as part of protecting ones property? Is this not what your Shooters and Hooters Party would put into law in Australia given half a chance.

Paul,

No, to both questions (there were two questions despite the last having no '?' mark.

Foxy,

I took your advice and Googled and there are 54 countries with higher murder rates than the Us.
http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5/rankingsYou posted,
"In international terms, the United States is an extremely
violent society, with a homicide rate far exceeding that
of any other industrialized nation." coming in at number 55 dosen't seem to equate with "...In international terms, the United States is an extremely violent society,..."
If the US is extremely violent how would you describe No1?

You still haven't answered the question regarding what significance industrialization has on murder rates.

Here's another from Google,

"In terms of organized crime, terrorism, homicide and reliability of police forces, the US ranks as the 56th safest country in the world, falling just below China at 55."
http://www.businessinsider.com/what-life-is-like-in-some-of-the-worlds-most-dangerous-countries-2018-10?r=AU&IR=T

So do you now regard China as an extremely violent place?

Dear Paul,

Did you happen to watch Foreign Correspondent last
night? Sally Sara looked at the Black Lives Matter
movement and its history and where it is today. It
started out as a small movement and has now been
transformed into a global force pushing for
justice and equality for black people.

She caught up with Baltimore photographer - Devin Allen.
His photograph made the cover of Time way back then.
Today he's a famous young man - working to tell the full
story of his people.

Interesting program.

Are Black Lives matter interested in the multiple murders of black people on the African Continent?

Haven't seen anything about it but then I rarely watch YV.

Foxy,

Here's a bit more Googling.

"The number of murders in South Africa climbed to the highest level in at least a decade as an overburdened police force struggled to keep violent crime in check.

The number of homicides rose by 3.4% to 21,022 in the 12 months through March -- an average of almost 58 a day -- the police service said in its annual crime statistics report released in parliament in Cape Town on Thursday. The murder rate rose to 36.4 per 100,000 people, from 35.4 in the previous year. The rate is more than six times higher than that of the U.S"
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-12/south-african-murders-increase-to-highest-level-in-a-decade

Black lives do matter so we should not be neglecting South Africa even though it is not an industrialized country.

81 black people were murdered in Nigeria a few days ago.

Where are the protesters?

http://www.dw.com/en/nigeria-dozens-killed-in-terrorist-attack/a-53768528

Hi there Issy,

You have often advocated the use of firearms to protect ones property. So why the curt reply when I asked the question Do you support this kind of gunnie action as part of protecting ones property? Under your regime you would approve of Michael Close shooting dead Isabella Thallas and wounding Darian Simon. CLOSE WAS PROTECTING HIS PROPERTY, Which you have stated is a legitimate reason to use a firearm.

Foxy,

Not even the Labor party believes the schtick that you are trying to sell. By dredging up the opinion of two hasbeen left whinge bureaucrats that had no involvement in the boats crisis all it demonstrates is how desperate you are to believe in fantasy.

That the boats arrivals dropped each time labor made an announcement is true, but they never stopped. They tested Labor's resolve and in every case labor crumbled and the boats started again. Only when Abbott began to turn the boats around did they actually stop.

The Malaysia solution was a farce, firstly it only covered 800 people which was swamped by the 150 odd weekly arrivals at that point before it could even be legislated. That it involved sending women and children to a country not covered by the UNHCR treaty with a reputation for violence against migrants was yet another lie by Juliar.

Paul,

How does one expand on 'No'?

When did I advocate the use of firearms to protect property, that is just another of your Green inspired lies.

Time to start taking your medication regularly.

Shadow MInister,

By suppling you with alternative facts and information
to what you're saying - does not necessarily mean
that it reflects my own personal viewpoint. It's simply
the opinions of others that differs from what you are
presenting. And should encourage us to see that there is
more than just your view on things.

It does not make me "desperate". On the contrary - it should
broaden the discussion if nothing else.

Hey Paul,

Roses are red
My name is Dan
I have a gun
GET IN THE VAN.

Foxy,

Why are you so obsessed with guns?

We can see that an American death has sparked
global protest around the world.

The "Black Lives Matter" movement has brought people
on the streets in Rio de Janeiro, Buenos Aires, Abuja,
Nairobi, Barcelona, Copenhagen, Paris, London, Sydney,
Melbourne, to name just a few.

Parallels of racism are being drawn with that in the
US in other countries. Of systemic oppression, including
South Africa. It appears that people are recognising the
commonality of black struggles everywhere and more
broadly the fight for human rights.

An article in - "The Guardian" pointed out that the words:
"I can't breathe" are chillingly familiar to many.

In Australia, they evoke the death of David Dungay, an
Indigenous man who uttered those words 12 times as he was
restrained by prison guards. In the UK they were cried out
by Jimmy Mubenga as security guards pinned the deportee to
his plane seat.

"The Guardian" article sums things up rather well when it
points out that:

"To say that Black Lives Matter is not only to demand that
they're not stolen, but to insist they they are truly valued".

"No one expects this to be realised overnight. However the
breadth of the protests not only is a testament to what has
goine wrong, but also a promise that change is possible."

"The protests although black-led are multi-racial, showing
the growing breadth of support. Progress can and must be
made".

If this does not happen, I suspect that then in future much
more than statues and memorials could be destroyed.

might start to believe the chants of black lives matters when the numerous degenerate protestors acknowledge that unborn babies matter or that white farmers matter in South Africa or that Police lives matter. No instead the Marxist and totally dumbed down and lying liberal media will continue to sow seeds of discord and be cheered on by those who have benefited most by hard working people.

no doubt Columbus was responsible for the man who randomly pushed a 92 year old woman to the ground. He only had 103 prior arrests including sexual assault. Oh well thats what our rational marxist professors teach the dumbed down generation.

https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/man-who-shoved-92-year-old-woman-to-the-ground-was-arrested-103-times-103-times?fbclid=IwAR36xsEWtyOCczDsKTDJvuGNyeYLExVCeLu1DbzdpT_UXvvuOJmHcpsy6nk

runner,

You're referring to "numerous degenerate protesters?"

Again, you have to be more specific. Not sure who
you mean.

The protesters although black-led are multi-racial
and the protests are happening world-wide. They're
not only fighting for black struggles everywhere
but more broadly they're fighting for human rights.
Surely you can't consider that as being "degenerate",
because it includes everyone.

Again, your references to "Marxist" "Lying Liberal Media?"
And to those who are sowing "seeds of discord" and
"cheering on those who have benefited most by hard-working
people?" You have to be more specific and give us some
evidence as to who you mean.

By the sound of things it would help
if you were able to lay off the stereotyping, rigid terms.
Negative feelings - antipathy, even fear - that's rooted
in your generalisations.

You ignore the differences in individuals and tend to lump
anyone you don't agree with or approve of in the one boat.

That's a bad reflection on you.

runner,

Your link doesn't work. next time leave out the
"s" from the http.

There's no excuse for bad behaviour. That's
why if you can see that pushing a 92 year old woman
is wrong you should be able to understand what people
are feeling about systemic oppression and be able to
express solidarity and outrage that one of the
richest and most powerful countries in the world like
the United States should continue to treat its
people this way.

You should be able to understand that the demonstrators
oppose the racial legacy it embodies, and the brutal
militarized police response to the protests.

What about those 81 murdered black Nigerians any protests yet?

Is Mie,

Do you mean the massacre carried out by the extreme-Right-religious-conservative Boko Haram ('Education is Bad') and its allied ISWAP in Nigeria, disguised as Muslim preachers ?

http://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/10/africa/boko-haram-faduma-attack/index.html

Only CNN and the Washington Post seem to be carrying the story.

Yes, appalling, one would have to concede that there vis more human decency and compassion in the little fingers of most atheists and Christians than in all of Boko Haram.

Joe

Joe,

The story was carried by The New York Times, CNN,
Washington Post, BBC, Aljazeera, and The Guardian.

Boko Haram killed 81, injured 13 and abducted seven.

Barbaric!

According to the web - when Boko Haram
was first formed (2009) their actions were
non violent. Their intent was to "purify"
Islam in Northern Nigeria. However it is now
a terrorist organisation and is aligned with
Islamic State of Iraq.

It has caused havoc in Africa's most populous
country through a wave of bombings, assassinations,
and abductions. It's fighting to overthrow the
government and create an Islamic State.

There's more at:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-13809501

Issy, none of what has happen, and is happening in Nigeria is condoned by any of us. Your smug "any protests yet" is not sincere what so ever.

So you disagree with Shooters and Hooters policy on Firearms;

#5 Establish family and home protection as a genuine reason to own and use a firearm and continue to support measures increasing a person’s right to self-defence.

Michael Close was protecting his home from a violating dog. What are you doing to change Shooter and Hooter policy of "home protection as a genuine reason to own and use a firearm"?

The "In Daily" (Adelaide Independent News) had an
interesting article that's worth adding to this
discussion. Here's what they stated in their opinion
piece:

" How does one reconcile the euphoria felt at the
toppling down of the Berlin Wall and the tearing
down of the statues of Lenin and Stalin at the fall
of the evil and totalitarian communist Soviet Union.
And the disgust at the defacing of Captain Cook's
statue in Sydney's Hyde Park and in Ballarat the
statues of former PMs John Howard and Tony Abbott".

"There is of course a difference in a popular
uprising overthrowing the most undemocratic and
oppressive regime of the 20th century and the current
spate of property damage occurring in some cities in
Australia..."

There's more at the following link:

http://www.indaily.com.au/opinion/2020/06/18/defacing-statues-damages-history-and-democracy

Your thoughts please.

So no one is protesting about the Nigerian murders or the murders of blacks in South Africa, I wonder is it indifference or the fact that those murders cannot be used to embarrass Trump?

Paul,

As you well know there is a vast difference in protecting life and property and shooting the owner of a nuisance dog.

Keep taking your medication.

What are you saying Issy, Michael Close can not refer to the muddled Australian Shooters and Hooters Party policy as a defence for murder?

As youR favourite gal would say, please explain; "Establish family and home protection as a genuine reason to own and use a firearm".

Define "HOME PROTECTION".

Paul.

"Define "HOME PROTECTION"."

Protecting the home.

A very broad brush, protecting the home. Trespass can be seen as a violation of ones home. A recluse who feels his home is being violated by the intrusion of an uninvited vacuum clearer salesman could under that policy use a gun to enforce home protection. Close may have well been doing that.

It looks like this discussion has now run its
course. I would like to Thank all who took the time
and made the effort to contribute.

I look forward to our next discussion.

Take care.
Stay safe.

Foxy,

It hasn't run its course until you answer the evidently embarrassing questions that I asked you.

Paul,

Here's an example of home protection,
"A pregnant Florida woman, armed with a semi-automatic rifle, gunned down one of two home invaders who had broken in and were pistol whipping her husband, officials said Monday.

The deadly confrontation happened at about 9 p.m Wednesday on Old Welcome Road in Lithia, Florida, about 25 miles southeast of downtown Tampa, Hillsborough County Sheriff's spokeswoman Amanda Granit told NBC News.

After the woman fired one shot from the family's AR-15-style rifle, both men fled and the mortally wounded robber collapsed in a drainage ditch outside where he died, according to deputies and her husband."
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/home-invader-fatally-shot-florida-pregnant-woman-ar-15-n1076026

That do?

defund the Police and take the guns off law abiding citizens. The mentality of the deranged.

Is Mise,

You seem to have me confused with someone
who's going to take your nonsense.

runner,

Your insecurities are loud.

Define "HOME PROTECTION".
Paul1405,
You wouldn't need to ask that if you had to work for a living !

"You wouldn't need to ask that if you had to work for
a living."

So spake a frustrated public servant.

The suppository of all wisdom.

Foxy,
The only frustrated xyz here is you !

Okay Issy, we have two defined cases of "home protection".

Case 1; pregnant woman, pistol whipped husband, home invaders, big gun, dead man.

Case 2; Man in house, lawn, dog crapping, man and woman, big gun, dead woman, wounded man.

Is there any line of unacceptability between the two in your eyes? If there is, how is it determined, given the fact you want to arm as many good law abiding citizens as you can. Just as the woman in Florida could be seen as a good law abiding citizen so to could the dog crapping killer Michael Close be considers a good law abiding citizen, until the dog did what he did.

Indy, "You wouldn't need to ask that if you had to work for a living!" How many years now is it you have been "employed" as a government titty swinger. Good earner for those who can get it.

Paul,

as you can't tell the difference it's your problem; do take your medication as directed.

Foxy,

When the going gets tough the fox runs away.

Individual,

Frustration comes before achievement.

Is Mise,

A fox does not run away.

It leads, ruffles feathers, does its job,
and moves on!

Foxy knows nowt about foxes.
Why don't you answer the question on the relevance of industrialization to a country's murder rate?

Is it because it doesn't fit your skewed view of things?

Trying to dodge (City) the question Issy is not like you. I'm simply asking when there is an all encompassing law of "home protection" or "self defence" where is the boundary. Given two extreme cases, then one can understand the difference. However giving virtual carte blanche to 95% of the population, the law abiding group, to carry a firearm and use it at their discretion for self defence and/or home protection, since those terms are not clearly defined, like in America there will be so many grey area cases.

Gregory and Travis McMichael, who shot dead Ahmaud Arbery, would at the time felt justified in what they had done. Law abiding citizens protecting the community from a wrong doer. how do you argue with that under the law as it would exist for you. In fact the shooting was treated as justified by the Georgia authorities for months after.

Paul,

If there is a grey area then the Courts decide, in Australia, there is always a Coroner's Inquiry into deaths, as it stands at the moment it is up to the victim to make a decision if in fear of his/her life and the police usually charge the victim. except where public opinion swells in support of the victim.

Tell us Paul, what would you do if your wife was under savage attack and was likely to be murdered?

The pregnant woman in Florida chose to defend her husband with a firearm, the Greens would deny her that option as,

"The Greens NSW believe:

7. That personal protection should never be regarded as a genuine reason for owning, possessing or USING a firearm." [my emphasis].
See:http://greens.org.au/nsw/policies/firearms

What could a person in her predicament do that would be in accord with Greens' policy and that would have saved her husband?

"the Courts decide" what a cop out, cold comfort for the hundreds murdered in the grey area and the obscenely ridiculous cases. Yes, deny the Florida woman, and at the same time deny the doggy crapper, and dozens of other outrages instances of self defence murders.

You refuse to answer the question. In your opinion, not some cop out, what are the limits of self defence and property protection. If the Shooters and Hooters have a policy lets get some understanding of it. Are you telling me that the Shooters and Hooters have no real concept of what constitutes self defence and property protection, yet they have a so called policy.

the hundreds murdered in the grey area and the obscenely ridiculous cases.
Paul1405,
I have no qualms in thinking that some deaths are due to excessive force by both Police & culprit with the end result being the culprit's death.
To call dying in custody murder just exposes your racist hatred. I have yet to see Police just pick someone to arrest & for anyone to say so is just plain stupid. The person being arrested has to draw attention to themselves in a suspicious manner before Police target them.
(90% of people arrested put on a deliberate show before cameras start recording so, by the time the Police acts, the cameras are ready & the incident is portrayed showing the Police as the aggressors.
Making yourself look like a Galah escaped from a cage & screeching like one, is a very valid reason for Police to start engaging in action !
Also, how much crap do you ask Police to cope with before their fuse blows ?

Paul,

As you would well know no one can define the limits, a 70-year-old woman faced by an 18-year-old who has invaded her home is in an entirely different category to a 30-year-old Special Forces Commando faced by the same 18-year-old.

One could expect the elderly woman to shoot to kill whereas the Commando would be expected to give the 18-year-old a lesson not to be forgotten, unless the 18-year-old was armed then shooting to kill would be justified.

It's case by case.

Just to save you going back,

"Tell us Paul, what would you do if your wife was under savage attack and was likely to be murdered?

The pregnant woman in Florida chose to defend her husband with a firearm, the Greens would deny her that option as,

"The Greens NSW believe:

7. That personal protection should never be regarded as a genuine reason for owning, possessing or USING a firearm." [my emphasis].
See:http://greens.org.au/nsw/policies/firearms

What could a person in her predicament do that would be in accord with Greens' policy and that would have saved her husband?"

Do answer, we await your reply with bated breath,

Though not on our shores, history is already being filtered on the run as it happens in New York.
Got sent a video of hundreds of shop fronts barricaded after the shops had been smashed into & looted.
The videographer remarked for four continuous minutes on the fact that none of the Media reported on that let alone showed any pictures.
Just as I saw on the news footage from yesterday's Stuttgart riots in Germany where the camera showed a vandal raise a bar to strike at a shop front & the footage stopped.
Did this kind of Media history Defacement scenario play out during the recent BLM protests in Australia too ?

Indy, sticking your nose in again, welcome as you are, get it right.
When I said; "the hundreds murdered in the grey area and the obscenely ridiculous cases." was not referring to black deaths in custody at all, rather it was a response to Issy wanting to arm the general populace for so called self defence and property protection.

Issy, the Dodge City policy of the Shooters and Hooters would see hundreds every years shot dead or wounded accidentally or wilfully in the name of self defence and/or protection of property. The old woman and the pregnant woman stuff is a smoke screen by the Shooters and Hooters to hide their real intentions of unrestricted "gun fun" they whish to pursue. The Greens oppose such a policy that would see hundreds dead so a selfish few can get their jollies. Does that answer your question.

Does that answer your question.
Paul1405,
No, as per usual you don't offer a relevant explanation. "hundreds murdered" is a deliberately overly exaggerated & insidious accusation to satisfy your selfish jollies to stir racial hatred.
If you don't know the meaning of words you should refrain from using them. People die in custody as they do in many other situations they get themselves into due to misbehaviour & to accuse the Police of 'murdering' them is nothing short of straight-out lying with the intention of causing massive disharmony ! Inciting hatred among those who feed & house them is one of the lowest acts any human can perform !

Indy, if you are referring to the word "murder" then I believe I have used it correctly, you may differ. I do believe like several of the old farts on the forum, your advancing years causes you some degree of mental fatigue, and thus tardiness of comprehension. Unfortunately until brain transplants are universally successful you will have to stay that way, that't the reality of your advancing years. It may well come to me one day, but hopefully not to the same degree as it has impaired your mental capacity.
All I can offer for you at the moment is a small incantation, hopefully it will be of some benifit.

Paul1405,
So, you're calling our Police what ?

Paul,

No, that does not answer the question as you well know,
so just answer it and tell us all what the Greens would do in such a life and death situation as the pregnant woman faced.

Remembering always that it is a Green belief that a firearm should not be used for self-defence; a belief, please note, beliefs are I believe non-negotiable.

Just to get back to topic:

There is a brilliant article on this topic of the dangers of forgetting history in today's Australian by Henry Ergas:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/the-pens-of-reason-wrote-their-way-to-our-future/news-story/c6e0d661520500824bd87d2ee83e2300

Here in Adelaide, some morons have defaced the tomb of Colonel William Light who first surveyed the city site of Adelaide. As it happened, Colonel Light had a Malay-Thai mother, he was born on an island near Langkawi. In that sense, he was a damn sight less 'White' than some of his detractors. His father, Charles Light, planned the city of Penang.

Those dumb-arses know so little about the early history of Adelaide, their own history, that they are unaware that it was colonised by what would have been the left wing of London society back in the day, greenies calling for open spaces in British cities and recognition of the rights of Aboriginal people, dissenters from the dominant religion, abolitionists and campaigners for women's rights.

That's all set out in Douglas Pike's 'Paradise of Dissent' (1957). It's no accident that Aboriginal women in South Australia had the vote twenty and thirty years before women had it in much of Europe or the US.

But when you deface history, deny history, forget history, you cut yourself off from knowing where it's all come from. You willingly turn yourself into a half-wit.

Joe

Joe,

So glad that finally you're seeing the light at
the end of the tunnel regarding the true history
of our nation.

Kudos.

"But when you deface history, deny history, forget history, you cut yourself off from knowing where it's all come from. You willingly turn yourself into a half-wit."

Could not agree more Joe. History, including Australian history, has been written by the victors. Very much an incomplete sanitised version has been presented for general consumption over the last 230 years in our schools and places of learning.

Hi Paul,

To paraphrase the old joke, if you know of a better history, write it. Otherwise run with what there is already.

Joe

Thanks, Foxy :)

Love always,

Joe

Dear Joe,

You sure know how to get to a gal!

Aw, shucks, Foxy, you're a real grouse sheila :)

Joe

Joe,

Coming from a top Aussie bloke, that's quite
a compliment.

Ta! :-)