The news from the ABS that 75% of those over 65, aged pensioners mostly, who had received the $750 government cash handout had simply deposited it into their savings, another $750 comming their way again in July. The fact aged pensioners had not, as the government intended, spent the largesse to boost the economy was not totally unexpected.

In the 2019/20 budget of $505 billion, $70 billion was allocated as assistance for the aged, direct aged welfare cash payments of over $20 billion were included in the $70 billion. With PAYE taxpayers putting in about 50% of revenue (All these amounts are before the bushfires and coronavirus struck the economy).

I though I would survey my two sons as to how they felt about the economics of pensions, handouts and taxes, and how its effected them. My eldest 37, a Labor voter, works for state transit in Sydney as a bus driver, has seen his o/t cut, but other than that its business as usual, has four young children, and a partner to support, along with a mortgage to pay. Not impressed with pensions, handouts or taxation and his long term future with such things. The younger 32, single, small business Liberal voter, supplier to the retail pet trade. Extremely scathing of the whole economics of his party and the way things have gone with handouts, pensions and taxes.

As under 40's I'll give their ideas later.

Shows you how stupid Morrison has been, chucking money at people he doesn’t know, doesn’t understand and holds in contempt.

Pensioners were never going to trust Morrison. When he was Treasurer he dismissed objections to his impoverishment of tens of thousands of part-pensioners and his taxation of major banks. They were never going to spend the money, preferring to hang onto it for the the next time duds them.

Morrison, Cormann & Centrelink aren't in touch with normal wage earners. In most other aspects they're well ahead of Labor in managing the Nation's affairs.
The Pension should be re-introduced as Superannuation will not last the distance when push comes to shove.
People like Paul1405 think think Pensioners are a burden. He forgets the fact that we have already bought our Pension over half a Century of paying tax on everything including low wages.
Bureaucrats & most others in non-productive sections of the Public Service have their Superannuation paid for & boosted by others. Superannuation is a good option for people with good income but for the basic wage earner it doesn't shine too bright at the end of the tunnel.
One day I'll take the time & work out how much of the Dollar is actually left once every tax & fee has been paid. I'd be very surprised if there's even 20 Cents left to actually save.
I maintain my view that a Flat Tax is the only way to to a sustainable economy !
As far as young peoples' views are concerned, I can only ask them to think of their retirement !

«The news from the ABS that 75% of those over 65, aged pensioners mostly, who had received the $750 government cash handout had simply deposited it into their savings»

This is terrible - First because they spy on what people do with their money, but even more importantly, did they even have the courtesy to at least ask the recipients whether they want this extra $750 before they pushed it into their bank accounts?

To protect myself from future such splurs of tax-payer money, possibly even without my knowledge, I decided to remove my bank details from the tax-office website - this way they may be forced to send me a cheque which I can then tear up. Unfortunately the ATO website is currently down, so I will try again later.

COVID-19 is NOT a valid excuse to infect people with tainted, stolen, tax-payer's money!

BTW. We shouldn't be concerning ourselves with what young people think about Age Pensioners or the Age Pension. We have done our bit; now it's their turn. The last time Paul was whingeing about his bus driver son, the son was getting about $90K a year - for driving a bloody bus!

Another thing we old folk need to remember. Young smartarses do not like us. They think life started the day they were born, and we know nothing. They can't/won't learn anything from our experience. They have no respect for us - even the kids of immigrant cultures that traditionally respect and revere their elders. They can't wait to get us locked up in nursing homes to be neglected and abused, hoping it won't be too long before they collect their inheritances.

Worry about what young people think? Stuff 'em!

Isn't it amazing how grateful these "young people" progeny of Paul are for all the money the pensioners spent on getting the young people to where they are today.

We paid for them to be born in hospital, supplied health care for a couple of decades, Then spent a fortune educating them, so they could earn a living.

Just perhaps, by the time they are 40 they will have repaid all the money we spent on them. This will depend on the level of education ewe provided for them. Those who went through the higher education system well still be in debt to us for another decade or so, unless they become public servants & are still bleeding the public dry.

Time some kids, & their parents grew up, said thanks, & started to pay their dues to society.

I don't begrudge anything that our current PM is
doing. I'm sure he has enough experts and advisers
to help him make the right decisions for the country.
So far our nation has done remarkably well during this
pandemic - and we can be proud that we have a leader and
cabinet that listen to advisers.

I certainly do not begrudge pensioners and others who
are given financial support to help them cope.
Our leaders know what they are doing.

I spent the $750 on a secondhand hay bailer, a decrepit machine that is the same as the one we currently use, this one is for spare parts and some useful iron for blacksmithing.

I'll probably spend the next $750 on ammunition.

Is Mise,

I don't think guns are going to work on the virus.

A bit of a ask of the kids what they know about what pensioners receive or might have in assets.

Both of my boys didn't know how much the pension per fortnight was, but when I told them, they don't think it was unreasonably high, but believe it to be livable, after finding out what assets a pensioner can hold, and what other assistance a pensioner receives. They were surprised at the amount of assets pensioners are allowed to hold in bank accounts without affecting their pension, $263,250 for a single, owning their own home, up to $605,000 for a non home owning couple. They thought it would be about $20,000 or $30,000. They think the high assert threshold is a reason pensioners would simply save the $1,500 in handouts. And the fact gods waiting room is closed, and they can't get to the pokies! So said Labor boy.

Yes ttbn, my son does earn a gross amount of $90k per year for "for driving a bloody bus!" up to 60 hours/week picking up old drunk wingers at 1am with their $2.50 pensioner pass, do you catch buses often ttbn? My (step) son-in-law gets about $200k/year for driving a crane, and doesn't have to pick up old whingers. How do you like that one? ttbn did you ever have a job?

Both my kids don't believe they will ever get such a generous pension handout from the government as some get today.

My youngest son, favours a mostly cashless welfare system where the bulk of the handout, if not all, is on a spend card which can't be used for purchasing alcohol, other drugs or tobacco, and can't be used for gambling.

What do others on the forum think of a cashless card system, where the pension is paid through a spend card, which doesn't allow for non approved purchases, and in the long run can't be saved or transferred. .

Both my kids don't believe they will ever get such a generous pension handout from the government as some get today.
Paul1405,
That's up to them really, pay for the pension now & get it back later ! Gallivant around the country & don't pay much Tax, people should expect a smaller Pension !
Non-approved purchases ? What, like drugs or like fuel ?

Sorry, Paul, but the jobs your two sons do are simply not worth the money they are getting. They don't need any particular skills, qualifications or education. There are highly educated people who don't get anywhere near that money. It's their good luck, I suppose,and it's human nature to get what you can. But ridiculously high wages for unskilled jobs is dragging Australia down and keeping kids out of jobs. You usual resort to childish abuse about old whingers and drunks really makes people take you seriously - not! Your ranting at everyone who disagrees with you suggest that you have more than a nodding acquaintance with the bottle yourself.

Dear Paul,

«What do others on the forum think of a cashless card system, where the pension is paid through a spend card, which doesn't allow for non approved purchases, and in the long run can't be saved or transferred.»

This would be terrible: I would not agree to use a magnetic card for payments. This has nothing to do with the nature of the purchase (alcohol, drugs, tobacco, gambling), where I actually agree with the purpose of your suggestion, but with the persecution of people like myself who do not agree with this direction of proliferation of and dependence on computers and other digital devices, which must end with the rule of machines over humans.

I find it already difficult now, when some shops refuse to accept money as payment, then I just have to forego and not buy what I need. When they do accept money, I carry with me all possible combinations for the exact change and spray the money with disinfectant before handing it.

Also most of my food purchases are in open markets where such a card would be a disaster.

I do believe in direct, warm, human-to-human interaction and keeping machines out when possible. At the moment there are obvious and justified restrictions, but I look forward to returning to the good old ways.

Foxy,

"I don't think guns are going to work on the virus"

Of course, they won't and neither will anything else that can be bought for $750, but $750 worth of ammunition can harvest several thousand dollars worth of meat or protect lambing ewes and lambs.

"What do others on the forum think of a cashless card system, where the pension is paid through a spend card, which doesn't allow for non approved purchases, and in the long run can't be saved or transferred"

Big Brother.

Dear Is Mise,

I already explained why, like yourself, I strongly oppose this idea, but:

«Big Brother.»

It is commonly accepted that younger siblings cannot choose their big brother.

But in this particular case, nobody is obliged to take an age pension.
No pension - no big brother.

Can you see a difference?

No problem with no booze, drugs, tobacco or gambling. It is because I have never bothered with these things that I have my sports cars, & had my yachting & motor racing, but stick your cards. That is a typical communist scheme to keep tabs on everyone.

As I said previously my parents generation paid to educate us, & the pension of the old then. We educated your kids, & for pension when we earned. Now it is time for your kids, & mine to pay their dues.

If I were a bit more doubtful I would be quite worried about this app they want everyone to down load. It doesn't effect me either, my phone is too old to handle the thing, but it is a lot of big brother for not much.

Hi Hassy, the booze, gambling etc is just a moral issue, and why should the government care what welfare recipients spend the dosh on. I think the real beef with conservative voters, like my youngest son, is the underlying resentment at "cash for the undeserving" which they see welfare as generally being.

The real financial problem presented to the government by the elderly, is their growing dependence on the annual federal budget to provide for them, not just pensions, but other aged services as well. With an ever increasing aged population the demand on the budget is growing exponentially, and simply is not sustainable in the long term. Old folks are accepted far more benignly by the general tax payer than others within the welfare section. Yet its the elderly that are the biggest problem going forward.

Young taxpayers don't see a future welfare system working for them, they see themselves paying for largesse for those now, like the $1500 handout, but when it comes their turn in 30 or 40 years time, the benefits just wont be there.

in 30 or 40 years time, the benefits just wont be there.
Paul1405,
That'll depend entirely on them if they vote in a Labor Govt again & if they don't start seriously thinking about changing their ways of living beyond their means !

Paul,

I think it is pretty certain that further changes will come to pension arrangements given the expected debt levels and the cost of that sector.

There will obviously be some dissent with this one.

personally, i like the kiwi system where all get pension, but pensions are also subject to taxation.

So wealthier people end up reimbursing govt through higher taxation levels as they will have much more saved and owned

Dear Chris,

«personally, i like the kiwi system where all get pension, but pensions are also subject to taxation.»

Do you mean that older New-Zealanders are forced to receive tax-payer money? Even those who conscientiously object? Is it physically shoved under their mattresses?

Then also, for a frail elderly person whose hands are trembling, sight limited and legs not so happy to make the trip to the other room where their tax-receipts and bank records are kept, presenting a tax-return can be a grueling task and this extra sum can quite spell the difference between having and not having to lodge it. Would this be how you like to spend your last years on earth?

Has Paul ever talked about his contribution to society? Has he made one? What is his work? Does he actually work? Like all members of the extreme Left, he has a lot to say about other people and what they deserve - or what they do not deserve more often- but what about him? His continual sniping at 'old farts' indicates they he is not old himself. So how is he being productive and contributing to the pensioners he hates so much? He has fathered a bus driver and a crane operator. The offspring of most parents usually do better than their parents. We know nothing about this bloke who presumes to know everything about other people and how they should behave.

older New-Zealanders are forced to receive tax-payer money?
Yuyutsu,
Strange enough comment but isn't it rather a case of simplifying the Pension system & keeping up the economy ? You're looking at the whole show from the wrong view point.
Chris Lewis put up a sane argument, you should take the time to read it & try to understand.
This is not just about everybody getting the precisely the correctly taylored deal. This is about the Nation where some people at times fork out more than others & vice versa.
To try & make it 100% precise & fair would be economically utterly inefficient because people aren't 100% efficient & honest, plus they'd be the first to whinge & bitch if their welfare were to be adjusted according to their contributions !

yes, I knew too many people in building industry that intended to offload wealth with relatives just to get pension.

the fact is that pension made little difference to their wealth, but the mindset of missing out creates a whole lot of new problems.

One builders' labourer had seven houses, always raved on about social justice, but went berserk at idea he would miss out on a pension.

let all have it, and get money back through tax system. This would still create incentive for all to get ahead, but would provide a basic income for those who miss out.

NZ also has additional super scheme, which can also be used for first house, another idea I like.

Paul1405,

Ask your sons if they prefer sharing their world with old aged pensioners or cashed up parasites who were brought in to keep the Australian economy afloat over the past 30 years and who will be brought in by the millions to regrow our economy in the wake of the Wuhan bat soup virus pandemic.

Let us know what they think about that choice.

Mr. Opinion,

Or Australian mining tycoons who a making billions out of Communist China, like Twiggy Forrest.

Alan Jones has rightly slammed Forrest, telling him he should stop grandstanding and supporting the CCP, that buys his iron ore. He was referring to Forrest's hijacking of a federal press conference by slipping in a Chinese ex-cyber spy now Consul General in Melbourne without the Health Minister's knowledge. Forrest was big noting himself after his deal with the Chinese Communist Party to sell us masks. He's not even trying to be subtle about his self-interest and the interests of the Chinese Communist Party.

Chris Lewis,
I have an ex work mate who has five houses & he still pursues jobs at age 75 because he can't get a Pension ??
What percentage would he represent among the Australian Taxpayers I wonder ! A friend had to sell his boat for peanuts because it was deemed too much of an asset to get a Pension.
I would like to take one of these academic bureaucrats & give them a $800,000 boat which they can try & make a living of at age 80 like they forced my friend to do.
Why the Hell can't they deem something an asset once it gets sold & brings in money, not while it's sitting there doing nothing but corrode & deteriorate because the economic management has failed to create the kind of economy that would make it possible to sell the so-called asset ?

I agree Indy, historically pensioners have done better under Labor governments than the conservative mob. As the evidence shows, Labor runs lower government debt than the Coalition. The last year of a Labor government saw a deficit of $257 billion, by last year the Coalition had jacked that up to $542 billion. By the time these economic jackasses are finished they'll have the national debt at one trillion dollars, with 15% unemployment! How is that for economic irresponsibility!

Now about this pension problem, I previous said the only economically sustainable system is a true national superannuation scheme to replace pensions. The problem with that is such a supa scheme will take some time to be financially viable. In the mean time I suggest we start by reducing pension payments and benefits by 10% annually until national supa can properly kick in. Example the single aged pension should in the first year drop from $944.30/ fortnight down to $849.90 and the PBS increase from $5.60 to $6.15, you get the picture, we shouldn't make it too hard on the old folks all at once.

ttbn, you ask a lot of questions, how could I have fathered my step son-in-law, the crane driver, I hope you are not married to your sister, then you are perverted! BTW I'm 67 in a couple of weeks, compared to you that's most likely still very young. I'm now retired but pay income tax, did last year, and will again this year, and have done so for near 50 years, unlike you I'm not welded to the government teat, sucking up the taxpayers largesse in the form of an aged pension. Although I would think you would be more likely a diso pensioner with the amount of problems you have.

Mr O, my oldest son is of your opinion when it comes to the Chinese.

Yuyutsu, New Zealand does not have an aged pension, they call it superannuation, and its paid to those over 65 with no means test. Its not automatic, you have to apply for it.

Indy, yes, it is crazy.

just give everyone the pension, and tax according to income that year.

if you live just on pension, as many do, income tax will be very low.

if you earn $100,000, including pension, you will pay according to tax scale.

no more need to juggle assets and so on.

If you're single, it doesn't matter how much income you have - it won't affect your NZ Super or Veteran's Pension payments, unless you get an overseas pension.

https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/eligibility/seniors/superannuation/payment-rates.html#null

The non-contributory flat-rate pension is paid to all residents fulfilling the residence requirements at the age of 65. The beneficiary must have lived in New Zealand for at least 10 years since turning 20 with at least five years spent in the country after the age of 50. The pension is financed from general tax revenues. *The residency requirements are set for discussion 2017/18.

All benefits received under NZS are subject to income tax. The pension is paid regardless of whether the person is still employed or not. It is neither work nor income-tested. New Zealand has not legislated for a compulsory retirement age and employers are not allowed to specify a mandatory retirement age in employment contracts.

Early retirement is limited. The NZS does not provide benefits to those who retire before the age of 65. Those who leave the labour market before being eligible for NZS benefits can apply for conditional, means-tested public income support.

me think that all Australians, by retirement age, deserve a pension if they want it.

Then, like the kiwi system, you can keep working, or do whatever.

You can also keep every asset you have.

it is a simple and fair system.

it also is efficient and encourages people, those who can, to keep working

Paul,

Keep on being a loudmouthed yobbo who resorts to abuse to avoid the truth. Nobody would recognise you otherwise.

to get around problem of assets, then maybe a deeming rate can apply to those assets not earning income.

Obviously, an asset of 40,000, say a boat, is going to be penalised much less than someone who has $1 million of cars in his shed.

But most people who have expensive assets, are also likely to have much income coming in from investments. thus, they will be paying a lot of tax, even if they get pension.

i believe in targeted welfare, and a scaled tax system, but a pension should be all those who have achieved retirement age regardless of their wealth.

For those who have invested, they will have much more from super and so on.

having said that, the super scheme benefits in Australia should also be reformed to make sure that tax benefits to not favour the wealthy.

Dear Paul,

Thank you for the information that the pension/superannuation is not automatic, fair enough.

---

Dear Individual,

I do not agree with this view as if it is OK to punish and devastate a few outliers in order to optimise outcomes for the masses. The NZ system is indeed simpler for many, but neither this nor the presence of inefficient, dishonest or whinging people justifies a forced dumping of unclean money on honest respectable older people who never asked anyone for charity or favours. In the very least, one ought to be able to opt-out.

Following Paul's clarification, the point is now moot.

We should remember that many of the old folks during their working lives didn't have the benefit of Super, 99% of Super schemes died when one left a job and many companies "died" when the potential Super payouts started to look big.

Gone were the jobs and the Super.

ttbn, you seem to be getting a little upset, that's not like you, Try-To-Be-Nice. Where is the abuse, you claimed I fathered my son-in-law, that'perverted, like being married to your sister. Although I do understand at your advanced age, how dementia can cause comprehension problems. At your advanced years you don't have dementia do you? I certainly hope not!

Talking about pensioner assets, my dear mum who passed away about 8 years ago, at the rip old age of 85. Mum was an aged pensioner for about 20 years, I being the executor of her will. The only real asset she had was a house in Sydney, other than $30,000 in her bank account. The $30k, every penny of it came from savings she made from the aged pension. Mum lived well, both my sons told me, when they visited, she was always wanting to give them money, money she kept under her pillow, money from her pension.

General opinion is the allowable assets of pensioners, other than their principle residence, their home, are far to generous.

Indy said; "work mate who has five houses...and he can't get a Pension" If they are not fowl houses, he should be doing okay with the rent?

"A friend had to sell his boat for peanuts because it was deemed too much of an asset to get a Pension."
Now with Centrelink and things like boats, just get an independent (low) valuation, and present it to them. I did that with my properties, but alas it was rental income, not value, that counted the most. Divesting assets to children is dangerous, in that it can and will attract gift tax. The answer is a foreign family trust, like set up in New Zealand.

Paul1405,

And your younger son the Liberal business guy wants the cashed up parasites coming in so that he can get rich from it.

I bet he hasn't realised or is denying that that relationship and the politicians, bureaucrats and business people who have been prospering off it over the past 30 years are the reason we are in the situation we now find ourselves.

What took 30 years to grow has now been wiped out in a few short months of the Wuhan bat soup virus pandemic.

And the ones with the most to lose are the ones who had the most :)

And what have we got for our trouble? A whole lot of parasites that no one wants any more.

Paul1405,
You must have a great job to put enough aside to last you till your dying days ! There's not a wage earner who could afford to save that much !
Even salary-earning bureaucrats still rely on Govt funded Superannuation.

Indy, yes I had superannuation, my wife comes from a forward looking country in NZ, and she collects her monthly superannuation payment.
The Australian Aged Pension for a couple is $1423.60, we live on less than that.

There is a saying; "Some people can live on $300 a week, others can't live on $10,000 a week!"

Paul,

I think many more will learn to live well on a lot less. they will have no choice.

for myself, I still have a lot of working years left before pension eligibility, but I hope to work a lot longer.

Hi Chris,

At what future age do you expect to be eligible for an Aged Pension, keeping in mind its 67 at present. My oldest who is 37, believes if he reaches pension age it will be 80, or 43 years from now.

Paul and Chris,

43 years to retirement: how many more Wuhan Bat Soup viruses away is that?

A lot can happen in that time. Did you see the news item today where China's strategic advisors have apparently advised the Chinese Communist Party bigwigs to prepare for international conflict in response to expected aggression from nations blaming China for the pandemic and its consequential damages and loss of life?

It is going to be very interesting to see how a post-Wuhan Bat Soup Virus world plays out.

I think China has only two options: either compensate the rest of the world for the damages and loss of life caused by the pandemic or exist in partial isolation from the rest of the world. In the first, China might offer to pay to be part of the world exchange system, but it won't pay anything worthwhile because China has a 'One Way! Our Way!' attitude. In the second, China would become an aggressive predator as it steals others' resources to achieve its Communist ideal of progress.

to achieve its Communist ideal of progress.
Mr Opinion,
Fifty years ago they could have achieved that with Australia's help headed by that Goaf !

he should be doing okay with the rent?
Paul1405,
One would think so but he can't handle the fact that he's not entitled to a Pension.
It's a mentality far too many Australians are afflicted with !

Hi Mr O,

Just a chat, that other country itching for war with China wouldn't be that blob situated between Mexico and Canada would it, whose political leader is a bloody fruitcake! Where is the "irrefutable evidence" that the bat virus came out of a Chinese lab! Trump is such a nation recker, both socially and economically, that he has little alternative than war. If it cost a million American lives to get re-elected I don't think that would phase Trump in the slightest.

p/s The bloke in China isn't much better, but I think he does have some sort of brain, would you agree with that?

p/p/s Yesterday, even ScumO' couldn't bring himself to agree with "the lab" rubbish.

Paul1405,

It serves Trump's agenda for the Wuhan Bat Soup Virus to have come from a Chinese lab. This is his chance to land the knockout punch to China in the ongoing trade war to determine who will be the kingpin in the global economy.

Everyone knows Wuhan is the origin of the virus and the epicentre of the pandemic so Trump has snookered China into coming up with an alternative explanation on the source of the virus. China can either keep shut and accept Trump's premise or show otherwise. And I just saw on TV that the WHO is saying that the Wuhan Bat Soup Virus might have originated in Paris but I would take that with a grain of salt because I think we are all aware that the WHO is a puppet of China and is probably looking for a way to get China off the hook especially after Trump withdrew the US from WHO.

Why would the US declare war on China when it can destroy China's economy by isolating it from the global economy? And I think the US will have a lot of support from other major economic powers in the Group of 20 who will all be recovering from the damage caused by China. There must be a lot of angry politicians. bureaucrats and business people in the world all blaming China for their losses.

Everyone knows Wuhan is the origin of the virus
Mr Opinion,
Well, that's where it was first identified. Wit the the insanity of unrestricted travel in the past decades it could have originated anywhere really !

individual,

if you believe it did not originate in Wuhan then please enlighten us on its source.

They don't call it the Wuhan Bat Soup Virus for nothing, you know!

Paul, my current eligibility age is 67.

given time to wait, will probbaly be raised to 70 if the govt decides to reduce pension burden through age criteria.

I will have to wait to 75 as my mrs is a lot younger and will be probably working to 67, assuming her health stays good.

i want to work as long as i can in part-time terms

Chris,

if Soot 'Beam up me Scotty' Morrison, Berejiklian, Gladys Liu, et al have their way they will replace you with a low paid cashed up migrant worker from China.

The answer is a foreign family trust, like set up in New Zealand.
paul1405,
that's exactly what brought us to where we're now. We need the same Tax rate for all full stop !
No Australian business registered outside Australia full stop !
We need change not more of finding & avoiding loopholes !

Mr. Opinion,

The Chinese workers will turn up first in the PRV - People's Republic of Victoria, where Commissar Andrews is doing deals with China on the Belt and Road part of China's stealthy take over of Australia scheme.

I remain amazed that Victoria can engage in such jiggery pokery. I thought that only the federal government could do deals with foreign countries. It appears that I was wrong.

Ttbn,

I certainly hope not, and i don't think it will happen, but in order to distinguish hysteria from sober analysis, we may have to wait and see :)

Joe