The China virus should have exposed the nature of the Chinese Communist regime to all but the most naive and apologetic. It’s just unfortunate that many of the naive and apologetic happen to be Australian politicians i.e on top of those who have been bought by the CCP, and only one or two of those creatures have been exposed. The motives of certain politicians and ex-politicians barracking for the Communist regime are yet to be discovered; and who knows what the Lefty DFAT denizens are secretly whispering in our ignorant politicians’ ears.

While the West is bumping along and trying to cope with China’s gift of the their virus, China is using the ‘distraction’ to indulge in business as usual by:-

Establishing two new outposts on reefs in waters claimed by the Philippines - in contravention of court rulings - as per the rest of its colonising of the South China Sea.

Working away to severe our U.S alliance.

Aggressively expanding with “debt-trap colonialism” in our region.

Buying its way past our security.

And there are all the abuses, persecutions and executions going on within China which should be enough to have any decent, democratic Western country avoiding them.

For those people more interested in the trade with China and think that it will be our eternal benefactor, think about these facts:-

Since the virus, 460,000 businesses have closed.
China has accrued a high level of debt over the past decade.
There is a structural slowdown. Growth down by 6%, lowest for 10 years.
Fiscal revenue down by 9.9% in Jan and Feb.
19% slump in VAT revenue.
Debt-financed stimulus spending 310% of GDP at end of 2019.
China now accounts for 60% of the US$72 trillion emerging market debt.
China’s exports are plunging.
Government is rescuing banks.

We must face the big lie soon.

ttbn,
What about those South Pacific Neighbours of ours who threatened to turn to China for help if Australia doesn't want to up the aid ? Good time to call their bluff now ?

individual,

Pacific Islands would be very foolish to accept debt-trap colonialism from China, which would see China taking over territory in lieu of repayment. We would be even more foolish not to give them aid because it should be part of the war against Chinese aggression. We don't want Chinese military bases any closer to us than they are now.

As long as the aid is for specific uses, and not some vague climate change nonsense that can't be monitored, aid should be part of our arsenal against Chinese aggression.

"As long as the aid is for specific uses, and not some vague climate change nonsense that can't be monitored, aid should be part of our arsenal against Chinese aggression".

really, but the pacific islands do believe in climate change.

r u suggesting that Australia tells them how to spend the aid?

Sorry about my spelling.

Yes, Chris. Aid should have strings. We are dealing with countries whose governments are not as open and accountable as ours. In fact, it would be a good idea if some (not all) of these governments were not allowed anywhere near the aid. Only the people needing help and local organisations should be involved. The possibility of corruption must be figured into all aid. It's hard enough keeping our own politicians honest. Our aid to foreign countries is our money, not 'their' money to spend as they please.

i don't disagree about aid having conditions.

But, China, which has a much bigger purse (at moment), can both serve its interests through higher levels of aid yet allow the recipient country to spend some on its own needs.

it will be very hard for Australia to compete with that.

My only condition regarding aid would be that it is not in money, it should only be in tools, portable homes, water filtration, medical equipment & other practical commodities but definitely not money !
The money would be better used to employ people in the manufacture of aid goods here !
400 million to some Nation is dead money for Australians. Manufacturing aid goods here to that amount would provide quite a lot of employment for Australians !

might be just a few people realising how well people had it with British settlement if the Chinese communist party spread much further. Hmm!

Why not let those who fork out the Taxes stipulate how & where aid should be distributed ?

Individual,

you sound like Andrew Carnegie. he had similar ideas about the rich knowing where money should be spent.

In terms of Western liberal democracies, they all said get ...... to such attitudes.

i don't think such ideas will be coming to fruition any time soon, here or in poorer Pacific nations.

But, don't despair Individual. if anyone was to take up such ideas, it will probably be the ...hole elites in authoritarian China

Just got this email a minute ago, anyone know if it is true or a hoax ?

WHY WHY WHY??

Everyone to whom I have BCC’d this message – ask your local member this question. After what we are going through?? Really??


The first flight to Sydney in over two months from China’s “coronavirus capital” Wuhan, is due to land in Australia tonight.

The cargo flight operated by China’s Suparna Airlines, will be unloaded in a special freight apron area of Sydney Airport.

It is not clear what the Boeing 747-freighter is carrying, after yesterday completing a trip to Shanghai.


A spokeswoman for the Department of Home Affairs would not provide details of the cargo but said they were aware of the flight arriving from Wuha

the rich knowing where money should be spent.
Chris Lewis,
Do you really think that's what I said & meant ??

Individual, ok, yes, i misunderstood.

yes, you are suggesting the people who pay the taxes, all of us.

Sorry.

Indy, you obviously are clueless when you say; "[aid] it should only be in tools, portable homes, water filtration, medical equipment & other practical commodities but definitely not money!". In the case of our adopted country Fiji, Australian aid is about 3% of the national income. At around $60 million per year it has declined substantially in real terms over recent times. Over half of Australia's aid is directly managed from Australia by DFAT. Our aid program is very much geared towards economic development. Your statement is one of those feel good things that inspire images of the child like indigenous people, happily accepting his new hoe as he is pictured within the village garden, or the village with bubbly fresh water, gushing from the newly installed pump, etc etc. That is not the reality with targeted aid. Business development which is the largest component, along with health and education is what Australian aid is mainly geared towards. Humanitarian aid from Australia after Cyclone Winston was a one off amount of $35 million, $15 immediately as emergency aid, and $20 as recovery aid. BTW the best bloody water I've tasted came out of a pipe, direct from a spring, in the highlands of Fiji. Some years ago when Australia and New Zealand, the Commonwealth, stepped out of the aid business with Fiji, China happily stepped in, to the joy of the Fijians.

runner, policies of British colonialism was responsible for the direct and indirect deaths of between 10 and 50 million people world wide. You say; "a few people realising how well people had it with British settlement" Wow, they never had it so good, a histories revisionists!

One small direct example of British colonialism, 13th April 1919, British troops under the command of Brigadier-General Reginald Dyer at Jallianwala Bagh, Amritsar, Punjab, India, opened fire on unarmed people killing at least 400, but most likely closer to 1,000, including men, women and children, over 1,500 people were injured. Villagers had gathered in the Bagh to celebrate the important Sikh festival of Baisakhi, and peacefully protest the arrest and deportation of two national leaders.

Author Rudyard Kipling declared at the time that Dyer "did his duty as he saw it" as did many British politicians. Dyer never faced justice for his crimes, dying unrepentant in 1927.

China happily stepped in, to the joy of the Fijians.
Paul1405,
How ? With money or goods & workers ? How is it clueless to not send money ?
Please explain !
That clean water you drank straight out of a pipe- was the pipe made of banknotes or PVC or steel ?

so how best can we minimise our reliance on China, reduce debt, and create prosperity.

interested in ideas.

we need some ideas given some of the clowns i am researching are suggesting that greater spending now is a rejection of neoliberalism.

as usual, i don't see too many realistic ideas, besides some espousing greater investment in renewable industries.

come on shadow minster, hasbeen and individual, i want to hear your ideas, as well as others.

please dont simply bag the unions and the ABC

Chris,

This is a very good question.

China has played a central role in Australia's development over the past 30 years and in a few short weeks the Wuhan virus has wiped out the benefits and gains accrued from 30 years of 'jobs and growth' policies that were tied to China and now we are looking down the barrel of an economic depression that might take 10 years to fix.

So what should Australia do? A question that a lot of western nations must also be asking themselves. Or will it be business as usual while we wait around for another virus to come out of China?

obviously we could start by not buying useless blades for windfarms and unreliable solar panels. We could then produce some base load power at reasonable cost instead of being scammed by numerous layers of rent seekers. Problem is we have a totally dumbed down education system that hides these simple truths from kids.

Runner, do you have any ideas beyond producing cheap energy through coal.

do we revitalise manufacturing, do we crush the minimum wage, do we keep giving tax cut to the wealthy, do we smash welfare.

go ahead, and speak your mind.

same goes for lefties.

i am interested, because my research of such a question is indeed very difficult

Chris,

What are you researching? Do you have a thesis? What discipline are you from?

Perfectly good solar panels are made in Adelaide.

i never start with a thesis.

i have a subject of interest, and then research the different arguments put forwards on the issue.

I would say that Australia's economic future is indeed an extremely difficult task.

but i look forward to writing it up.

all i can do is offer a opinion.

Okay Indy, you want a prime example of the benefits of Chinese aid in Fiji. Outside of the Kings and Queens Hwy, the main road circling around the coast of Viti Levu, the internal roads are mostly gravel. The roads leading into the Highlands are particularly bad, with access to villages through 4WD or sometimes trucks, and in the wet, washouts and landslides are common and the roads becomes impassable.
This leads to economic hardship, produce can't be taken to market, people can't travel freely, the old bus services had to terminate well down as they could never negotiate the treacherous highland roads. At one time Commonwealth aid was being used in the road smoothing program, with locals doing the work, with a private NZ contractor supervising. After the coup Fiji lost its Commonwealth aid, the vital road projects stopped. China stepped in, the road projects resumed, but neither the Chinese or the locals were all that great at road maintenance work, and during the wet much of the work failed. Those Chinese are pragmatic, they hired that NZ contractor to take over once again, but this time being paid with Chinese money. The Fijians are happy, their roads are getting fixed, and do they care if a few Chinese battle ships anchor in Fiji with their guns pointed at Australia and New Zealand, I don't think so, too concerned with more mundane issues, like getting a decent road.

BTW, I was having a chat with a mate in Fiji, Savvy, I mentioned you and your aid, and I asked if he had got a new hoe. "What? What would I do with that?",... I don't know? Hit some of those occasional obnoxious Australian tourists over the head with it." Not that long ago Savvy told me about one particular obnoxious Aussie, while he was working the bar, shook up a bottle of beer and deliberately squirted it all over him. The drunk and his mates though it was a great joke.

"What? What would I do with that?",
Paul1405,
Therein lies the problem ! Is it any wonder things go wonky ? Your friend sounds suspiciously like an Academic !

when i at fiji, local workers told me they did not trust Chinese and that they liked aussies and new zealanders.

Did only ask three fijians.

i would think any nation building closer ties with authoritarian China should be very, very careful.

this is not just my opinion, but the opinion of some prominent fijians

There you go Indy, with your complete lack of understanding. Savvy has a high school education, somewhat more than you. His village is located within walking distance of two tourist resorts. He works at one, about 40 hrs/week for about $2.50f/hour, much less than you get for sitting on your arse in Australia doing nothing. His wife does child minding and swimming lessons for children, including their little girl and some of the pre-school kids from the village, along with guests children two afternoons a week at the same resort. Does that make them academics?

The village is a communal cooperative, whereby those that work in a paid job, about 60% of adults earn an income of some kind, which is used for village expenses, buying staples, rice, flour, sugar etc, money for power, mobile phones, petrol and any other village expenses, unlike in your case beer and cigarettes are a luxury. Younger men not employed in that way work several hours a day in the often remote village garden, and the women keep house and look after the pre school children, cook, sew, watch out for the old folks. Sunday is a religious day for almost the entire village, dress up for Sunday services, morning and afternoon, all Methodists.

Indy, you are always putting up ways to penalise others, young people, the unemployed, low paid workers, public servants, refugees, foreign aid recipients. BUT you are happy for yourself to swing of the govvy teat with pensioner welfare. In fact you believe the taxpayer welfare for you should be increased, without you having to do anything for it. Don't give me that BS that in some pasted life you paid for it. How about the soup kitchen and food stamps for you totally unproductives?

BTW, no comment on Chinese aid and the good it is doing.

Indy, you are always putting up ways to penalise others, young people, the unemployed, low paid workers, refugees, foreign aid recipients.
Paul1405,
You're either incredibly deranged or just a blatant liar !
Show me one (1) just one post where I said that !

bula vinaka Chris,

Not sure what kind of workers you are referring to, those in the tourist industry, resorts, "taxi" and shops, buses etc, or others. True, Aussies and Kiwi's in general are well liked, there are the occasional exceptions. We spend time in the Sigatka/Nadi area, we can stay with our friends, but not always, sleeping on the floor on mats gives me a bad back. Don't see a lot of Asians, but their number has grown over recent years. To me they tend to be very busy tourists, as Fijians all understand English, but don't understand what many Chinese are saying, that could well make them suspicious. The truth is the average tourists does not understand the life of the average Fijian at all, just see them as happy smiling faces ready to serve.

Its often said there is conflict between the indigenous Fijians, and the Fijian Indians, I've not seen that greatly, we have friends in both communities. One of the best aid workers for the local indigenous is an Indian Fijian bloke.

Hi Paul,

i stayed at shangri-la resort in 2018, and had booked to go back this year (now on hold).

yes, there may be legitimate reasons for any concern towards chinese.

However, i think that fijians also share a lot of commonality with aussies and kiwis, including their love of sport, especially rugby codes.

i may be generalising, but chinese workers also tend to keep themselves and at times companies may exclude fijians from work opportunities.

In light of the Wuhan virus pandemic I think that the position of large numbers of Chinese in Australia is rapidly becoming untenable.

It is still early days in this crisis and we are already seeing daily reports of physical and verbal abuse and attacks against Chinese in Australia. I think that as a group the Chinese will be the people who will suffer the most from the aftermath of the pandemic and its consequential economic downturn.

So, what will happen to the Chinese of Australia over next 12 months while we are all sitting around waiting for someone to develop the vaccine and where will they be after that?

Mr Opinion,

that is another interesting question.

for the first time, Australia is getting large minority with a background representing the greatest ever threat to western primacy.

i think it will work out because most people of all nations are decent people.

however, Australia will have to be alert to potential dangers from authoritarian China trying to influence Chinese Australians.

when i at fiji, local workers told me they did not trust Chinese and that they liked aussies and new zealanders.
Chris Lewis,
I have had plenty of personal experience with that scenario.
If an American would ask them, they'd say they like Americans, if a Brit, a German, an Italian, a Scandinavian etc. would ask them the same question they'd receive the same answer.
I have been told by several older PNG people how their parents always spoke of the good times in New Guinea under the Germans.
It's perfectly normal for the people of the Pacific Islands to agree with the visitor & please them.
It's part of a very widespread culture which most Westerners could never understand.

yes, individual.

but they also bagged the chinese, and i did not prompt them to do so.

so, we as westerners, can promote a conversation.

another thing, the fijians also told me that the chinese had little regard for being told where to sit at the restaurants as they were the ones that would just where the best view was, albeit i saw them often get moved along to wait their turn.

Chris,

Yes, individual has heaps of experience dealing with and understanding Melanesians and their attitudes to outsiders and he can tell you from his own experience that they would always give an individual the same answer. Isn't individual just so lucky to be an individual?

Mr Opinion,
Well, I haven't asked them what they think of indoctrinated morons so, I'm unable to tell you how they'd react if you asked them a question !

individual,

Il mio! Sono l'uomo universale! Il mio dio! ........... che prossimo?

most societies have attitudes towards others.

when i studied indonesian history, i learned that chinese were considered jews of that society.

Chris,

The Chinese were called the Jews of Asia long before you were born, let alone when you studied Indonesian history. An insult to Jews, in my opinion.

Is Indonesian history holding you in good stead, these days? British and Australian history would have been much more useful.

Chris,

China under Kublai Khan invaded some of the Indonesian feudal states in 1271 and attempted to established hegemony over some of the local rulers but was eventually defeated, I reckon Indonesian nationalists still harbour a lot of resentment against the Chinese, especially those of the large Chinese minority who became economically preponderant from their close association with the VOC and later the British and Dutch governments during the heyday of colonial imperialism.

yes, chinese on nose in lots of places over years.

tbbn, thanks for your concern, but also did US, European and Australian history as part of politics/history degree.

u sound like u know a lot, but still waiting for your ideas about how australia can save itself.

Chris,

ttbn is rote learned and not having done Arts he will be lacking in critical thinking skills which means you won't get much of anything in his own words and like mhaze and company he can only regurgitate bits and pieces of things that appeal to him on Wikipedia etc.

So don't hold your breath waiting to get any original ideas out him because it just aint gonna happen!

Chris,

My ideas on how to save Australia? I've been giving them since long before you turned up on OLO. I haven't seen anything from you: just lefty opinions on how bad everyone else is. You should stick to your two-way nattering with Mr. Opinion. You are suited to each other. Useless degrees, and nothing to show for it. You at least admit to being a cleaner. Mr. O won't let on what he does - nothing I suspect. There's not much call in the real world for what he claims to know.

To fix Australia, we need a Conservative government. As we don't look like getting one any time soon, ideas and suggestions are irrelevant. As we lurch further to the left with each election, I'm starting to think that Australians don't deserve any better than the awful mess we have now. I reckon you youngsters deserve everything that's coming your way.

tbbn, u are merely good at giving insults. that is it really.

a know all who nothings very little, but lecturers all

I can see why you are a minimum wage cleaner, Chris Lewis.

Yes Chris, good old ttbn became a paid up member of the Corny Banana bible society some time back, extolling the virtues of the new messiah. Unfortunately Corny shot through taking ttbn money and giving him nothing in return, no even a refund. As they say there's a sucker born every minute. Don't despair ttbn, bug ridden Boris or the Trupster should be out of a job very shortly and you can adopt them as your news savours of Australia! Providing they leave anyone alive to help you out.

interested in ideas.
Chris Lewis,
I only just saw your post so 'ere goes:
#1 Establish a 15 months National Service for any unemployed 18-22, Reduce senior Public Service Bureaucrat salaries by 25-30% starting @ 200,000/year incl. ABS & SBS & Judiciary,
#2 Introduce a 15 % Flat tax for wage earners,
#3 for standard traffic violation the penalty should reflect a percentage of the Driver's income rather than one fine for all,
#4 Drug abusers who receive Public Health treatment should be made to make small periodical payments,
#5 Foreign aid should only be in locally manufactured goods so as to provide an industry stimulus that actually works,
#6 Make criminals repay their victims as much as they can & the Govt should make up the balance by way of a Citizen Insurance.
# 7 Introduce a Govt Lottery in which people on basic wage can win a normal wage until retirement,
#8 Stipulate that Lotteries have more realistic & practical prizes such as ten family homes instead of one multi-million Dollar home.
# 9 Reintroduce a Pension Fund to which every salary & wage earner contributes ! No if's no but's !
#10 Start work on an on-going watering the interior project !
# 11 Make barbed fish hooks illegal !
# 12 Make the Judiciary accountable !
I'm certain that now is actually the best opportunity in our lifetime to effect such changes & a healthier mentality will be guaranteed !

China's man from WHO shows how evil their ideology is

https://dailycaller.com/2020/04/04/who-abortion-essential-coronavirus-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR31VrzzOQXkXYwS32BBikdKEb89T60jrLUcbo5OINNk5I68Ywmum_oX6u4

so, we as westerners, can promote a conversation.
Chris Lewis,
I assume you've read about Margaret Meade ?

Some earth shattering policies from the Indy Party, I particularly like policy # 11 Make barbed fish hooks illegal! Now that's a vote winner. Hels got the carrot and stick with a lottery to get a house.

Can't wait to see the Parties manifesto.

However lots of penalties for other people, the young, public servants, low paid workers, etc etc, but as usual nothing about the $20+ billion of taxpayer largesse handed out to the aged welfare mob hanging off the govvey teat.

Indy you weren't that welfare fraud on the telly, a week or two back, who said the first thing he was going to do with his $750 taxpayer handout was buy 8 cases of booze! I though of you immediately.

Hi Chris,

When you were in Fiji at the 'Shangri La' did you get time to go into Sigatoka? That's our young fellas home town, his village is only 10km away. Unfortunately we got him over this year to study graphic design in Brisbane for a year. Got himself a car washing job and all, but with the virus, it was best for him to return home, maybe come back next year.

Down in Nadi, the Farmers Club, is clean, its a good place for a feed and a drink at a reasonable price, not like that Denarau Island, they sure see the tourist coming. Up in Sigatoka our friends know where to go, and where to avoid, when wanting a feed, all at a very good price

Thanks Individual.

And ttbn, ouch, but it ok being a cleaner. That is what i choose to do at the moment while my gym work is closed.

ttbn, Hope you are enjoying your isolation, as you appear to be a very, very angry man who is obsessed with insulting someone.

Happy Easter to you. Hopefully someone puts out some little chocolate eggs out so you can forage around.

Chris,

It's Happy Crucifixion Day. Ho ho ho! Merry Easter everybody!

one of the more crazy ideas getting publicity is Modern Monetary Theory which promotes the endless printing of money for govt spending as long as inflation is controlled.

cannot believe that anyone can take this idea seriously, but some are.
https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/coronavirus-covid19-how-australia-is-paying-for-welfare/12133292

another example of Australians being unable to contemplate the urgency of Aust's situation for some harsh reforms, albeit hopefully they can be implemented in a fair way so wil all share the burden

Chris,

Or, how about: Don't you fancy a bit of hyperinflation with your Wuhan virus centred economic depression?

Mr Opinion,

I actually think Australia can deliver a better future from debate across the political spectrum to help formulate some good ideas.

We can take pride in our response to the coronavirus which (thus far) is proving a lot better than other liberal democracies.

However, we can exclude ttbn for a while until he stops attacking the man and learns how to play the ball.

Just found this on the web showing two more people masquerading as Chinese trying to rip baby powder feed off the shelves to sell in China.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8210455/Shocking-moment-two-shoppers-nearly-come-blows-fight-baby-formula-Big-W.html

There should be a law against people dressing up and behaving like Chinese!

However lots of penalties for other people, the young, public servants, low paid workers, etc etc, but as usual nothing about the $20+ billion of taxpayer largesse handed out to the aged welfare mob hanging off the govvey teat.
Paul1405,
Could you please post your "Fully qualified fruitcake" Certificate for all to see ?
What don't you get when I say Senior Public Service Bureaucrats on $200,000+?
Where exactly did I advocate for all those you mentioned to be penalised ?
Can you also provide a Link where the Old Age Pension is referred to as Welfare before Labor so insidiously removed it but kept deducting the 7.5% for it ? Why am I asking for this you might ask ?
Well, because when my age group was paying this contribution for the Pension there was no Super , only Pension and, that's what we contributed to for over 50 years.
So you claim to be in our age group, what are you living off now ? Have you paid 7.5 % for over 50 years ?
You sound like a perfect Bludger !

individual,

That wasn't you by any chance in the video above masquerading as Chinese in order to get preferential access to baby formula at Big W?

All of these people masquerading as Chinese are giving the Chinese in Australia a bad reputation as parasites. There should be a law against it! Although I must admit one could say that they were at least dressed for the occasion (we might call that a Weinbergian inference.)

Chris,

The Wuhan pandemic is starting to look like it is worse than first imagined.

Some experts are now beginning to doubt if anyone will be able to come up with a vaccine and a report just in from South Korea says that about 90 people who had been infected and recovered have been diagnosed with being re-infected.

Looks like the Wuhan virus might be a life-form that just wants to keep on keeping on.

Not the sort of dreary saddening news one wants to be hearing on Happy Crucifixion Day.

yes, who knows what the future holds with the virus.

Nevertheless, sooner or later we will have to get back to the creation of wealth, a reality that confronted Australia long before the fires and coronavirus when Australian governments were encouraged to print money last December to get the economy going again.

Chris,

Soot and Josh have already worked it out.

Their solution will be to have plenty of future tax payers to offset their Wuhan virus stimulus packages so what they will do is simple, just swamp Australia with millions of cashed up Chinese and sell off any assets not already owned by the Chinese to the Chinese Communist Party.

They're probably thinking that this economic plan was working alright prior to the Wuhan pandemic so why shouldn't it work post-Wuhan pandemic.

You have to give it to Josh and Soot, they're pretty smart! And Soot's got the runs on the board: look how he kept into action during the 2019-20 bushfire crisis. They're probably saying to each other: "Easy peasy mate!"

interestingly, so mo and co are talking about not relying on imports for some key products because of coronavirus, like medical equipment.

Chris,

Yeah right, that's now when they have to convince the voters they will get a better world post-Wuhan pandemic. Watch their tune change when things normalise.

Mr Opinion,
Are you holding Paul1405's you know what when you're writing your posts ?
You run down The PM without even considering the unthinkable-Labor in power under Shorten !
This is a time of the most serious crisis we're facing thus far in our lives & all you can do is waste OLO space & time with your nonsensical quips !
Provide ideas for solutions instead of what you're doing !
Why not take up Chris Lewis's offer ?

In all the posts here no one has considered just what is China's attitude
to the countries to which they offer aid.
First, they consider that all other countries are not sovereign countries.
A couple of months ago President Xi made that clear when he chastised
the US and pointed out that the US is not a sovereign country.
In their eyes China is the only sovereign country.
All other states are vassal countries to China.
You can see this in action in the Sth China Sea and in their use of
lasers aimed at US and other aircraft from their base at Dbjbouti
in Somalia.
Another view is their actions in Vietnamese waters where they abrogated
Vietnamese rights to areas of the sea that are Vietnamese economic zones.
As Vietnam is a vassal state of China the Chinese drillers can do as they wish.
The abrogation of the economic zones in Indonesian waters is another example
of the "Nine Dotted Line".
Another area to watch are strategic straits like Malacca and Sunda.
So why are you concerned that China will take over assets built with
Chinese money, after all that was the idea all along.
We will find out our ranking when we try to repossess some of our, err
sorry, Chinese farmland in Australia.
It is all being done to reimpose the Central Kingdom control.

individual,

You sound like you're in love with Soot 'Beam up me Scotty' Morrison.

I think the Morrison government is doing a good job and providing the right signals on the economy, but only the future will tell with regard to how the hard reforms play out.

This will also depend on society itself debating and shaping the policy ideas.

But the govt's response to the coronavirus, which has been clearly superior to our closest allies, shows that we still have a great capacity to respond well to challenges

This will also depend on society itself debating and shaping the policy ideas.
Chris Lewis,
That is the great worry, considering some of the self-centred attitudes on display on the forum !
I can't help thinking that now is the right time to start thinking about the reintroduction of a National Service with only optional or voluntary military participation which would lead into better future employment opportunities.
The improvement to our society would be immense !

individual,

i think most Australians can agree to good ideas.

while some on the left may cringe at any reform that does not involve more govt or more handouts, most Australians do adapt as seen by support for the GST and mutual obligation. This means that further tax reform and even national service schemes can never be ruled out.

i am optimistic, but not sure how much different sectional groups are willing to share pain, including policy elites and politicians.

One must live in hope.

where are the ideas from the left on OLO?

i am struggling. all i can contemplate is more of the same from the Morrison govt, as was case prior to coronavirus, in that the times suit a centre-right government.

All i can hope for is that decent public education and health exists, and that more is done for public housing.

Besides that, i support declining real wages and higher productivity as a means for Australia to maintain its standard of living by increasing investment attractiveness for more industry.

sounds all over the place, but i will not be offering feel good messages because there are none.

Indy, you say "Introduce a 15 % Flat tax for wage earners". What a nonsense idea. A wager earner with a taxable income of $38,000 presently pays $3900 in tax, under your flat 15% tax that would increase by $1800 to $5700. Where as a wage earner on a taxable income of $380000 pays $144,000, with your flat tax of 15% that would reduce by $87000 down to $57000. REMARKABLE. Penalise the low paid, that's your motto Indy. Share the pain for a change Indy, bet you wont be in that!

Using your bench mark, would you agree the Aged Welfare payment for a single person at $24550 should also reduce by 15%, $3700 to $20850.

Who refereed to the Aged Pension as WELFARE, none other than the Treasurer himself, in a speech to parliament Josh Friedbrain said, Welfare dependence in Australia, excluding aged pensioners, was the lowest in 30 years. Obviously the Treasurer sees the Aged Pension as WELFARE! BTW does your 15% flat income tax include the 7.5% pension payment.

I would have paid far more income tax over the past 50 year than you Indy, in those low paid menial jobs of yours. So whose getting the WELFARE.... YOU not ME!

Some interesting points !
https://www.tr.news/worst-coronavirus-video/

I just saw Scott Morrison on TV saying how dismayed he is to hear that the WHO has just given China the all clear to reopen their wet markets. I totally sympathise with him on this one.

But what next? I suppose all those ex-pat Chinese in Australia will start lobbying to have wet markets in Australia. Of course what a good idea, we can start growing our own Wuhan virus locally instead of bringing it in from China.

Don't you just love the Chinese?

Indy avoids responding to the above post, as to why a person on a minimum wage has to pay more income tax, and the top 1% of earners get a huge tax cut, sorry not the aged welfare mob like Indy, pain is for others.

What about this Indy Party policy; "Reduce senior Public Service Bureaucrat salaries by 25-30% starting @ 200,000/year"

Indy would reduce Australia's Chief Medical Officer Brendan Murphy and his Deputy Paul Kelly salaries by 25-30%. While keeping his own government largesse untouched. Can others see the Indy picture, kick others in the arse, but keep his personal undeserved access to the govvy teat untouched.

Here's my idea, value for money for the taxpayer, whatever welfare Indy is getting multiply it by 1,000,000% and that's what we'll pay Brendan Murphy and Paul Kelly. Then reduce Indy's and others like him, their welfare to 20 bucks a fortnight and boot them into a 'Seniors National Service' where they can dig weeds on the side of the road with the shiny new hoe's we give them, complements of our pensioner aid program.

Paul1405,
Seeing that you're simply not astute enough I'll say AGAIN what I have said countless tiomes on OLO by now.
In order to get some normalcy towards a level playing field we need to bring excessive salaries down rather than raise basic wages ! It's the ONLY way to get back into competitiveness in manufacturing & possible resurgence of exporting Australian made goods !
Leave the minimum wage where it is !
Making stupidly opportunistic swipes at every turn is not a way forward Paul1405, it doesn't get you anywhere ! Why not try not being a git !

Indy, how about disputing what I've put up, re your 15% flat income tax. Answer that one? At minimum wage your tax goes UP at ten times the minimum wage your tax goes DOWN! As one would say PLEASE EXPLAIN!
You have these ideas, you put them up, how about an explanation. Now whose the git?

Paul1405,
Firstly, I'm talking about the real cost people to the Taxpayer, the $200,000+/year Public Service bureaucrats. The ones that "cost us" !
You're on about the big companies who don't pay enough Tax.
Entirely different kettle of fish ! You know why they pay so little Tax ? Because of the above-mentioned bureaucrats !
Is it sinking in yet ?

Indy, why don't you answer the simple bloody questions!

Under your 15% flat tax a low paid worker would see his tax INCREASE, while a high paid executive would see his tax DECREASE.

Why do you want to see the pay packets of Brendan Murphy and Paul Kelly reduced by 25-30%. I've given you all the figures

Would the Aged Pension also reduce by 15%?

I know you have been caught out with a load of old rubbish, but gives the answers.

Paul1405,
2018/2019, 2019/2020, 2020/2021 and 2021/2022

taxable income Tax rate
$18,201 – $37,000 19% for amounts over $18,200
$37,001 – $90,000 $3,572 + 32.5% for amounts over $37,000
$90,001 – $180,000 $20,797 + 37% for amounts over $90,000
Can you spot the problem with inequality ?
That's what needs to change to 15% (a figure for argument's sake) per Dollar, no insidious bracketing !
So, how would a 15% flat tax a low paid worker see his tax INCREASE, while a high paid executive would see his tax DECREASE

really, but the pacific islands do believe in climate change.
Chris Lewis,
How to you propose we can prevent Climate Change & even if we we can, how do you propose we can stop islands from corroding & subsiding ?
How would aid in goods & commodities not be more beneficial for all rather than money for a few ? The way I look at it is that the provider of aid goods can also maintain a healthy economy from the manufacture of such goods. Where is the benefit of sending just money ?
Isn't it all about helping people in need ? At home & abroad !

Except that the majority of islands are getting bigger and the Islanders
must know that.
Are they just using the article of faith that they are sinking ?

Except that the majority of islands are getting bigger
Bazz,
Please excuse my ignorance but I'm unsure how to interpret that ? You mean the population or the island physically ?

Water isn't rising, the islands are sinking.

"Please excuse my ignorance" Unfortunately Indy we cannot excuse your ignorance when it comes to income taxation. A shoddy attempt at distortion by you with your tax scales.

Here is Indy's chart;

taxable income Tax rate ......TAX FREE THRESHOLD.
$18,201 – $37,000 19% for amounts over $18,200
$37,001 – $90,000 $3,572 + 32.5% for amounts over $37,000
$90,001 – $180,000 $20,797 + 37% for amounts over $90,000

taxable income Tax rate
$0 - $18,200 zero tax
$18,201 – $37,000 19% for amounts over $18,200
$37,001 – $90,000 $3,572 + 32.5% for amounts over $37,000
$90,001 – $180,000 $20,797 + 37% for amounts over $90,000

Oh! this is painful, but for the dummy sitting up the back of the class. Indy pay attention.

Example; A supermarket worker earning a taxable income of $38,000 pays $3,900 tax 10.3% of his income. The state manager for the same supermarket earning a taxable income of $380,000 pays $144,000 37% of his income. INDY PLEASE EXPLAIN.

How about those other questions you are avoiding.

Why do you want to see the pay packets of Brendan Murphy and Paul Kelly reduced by 25-30%?

Would the Aged Pension also reduce by 15%?

Mr O, please help me out here.

Individual has a degree in Garbology majoring in toilet flushing, what's his degree worth? I suppose there wasn't much call for mathematics in Indy's working life doing odd jobs in between collecting the dole.

Armchair Critic,
Consider the displacement effect of sediment, artificial fill, Navy shipping, commercial & pleasure shipping & you'll find that all combined will probably result in some ten Billion tonnes.
It may only be a few millimetres but a rise it is never-the-less ! The REAL PROBLEM with the oceans & the Planet as a whole is pollution !
But, consumers want increasingly more pollution causing commodities !
Let's just hope the reduced emission due to COVID-19 will have a little beneficial effect on curbing pollution !
The irony here is that the very people bagging the big companies for pollution are in fact the very consumers pushing for the commodities ! Talk about senseless !

So, how would a 15% flat tax a low paid worker see his tax INCREASE, while a high paid executive would see his tax DECREASE
Paul1405,
Why would anyone apart from you want to see a low paid worker pay more tax ?
How will a high paid executive pay less Tax ?
Please explain ??
Pensions are already below minimum pay so, why lower them ? You don't seem to get the gist of Tax at all. Everyone pays Tax the moment they spend a Dollar & that's on top of income Tax.
What don't you understand when I say wage earners should pay less Tax & high earners should earn less ?
What is it you don't understand by the term Change ? Our Tax system needs reform, that's all there is to it ! If you don't understand that then I'm sorry I find no point to repeat myself just for the likes of you superfluous greed bags !

Individual, Auckland University's Institute of Coastal Studies did a
survey of all Pacific Islands. They used aerial photographs from 1945 as
their comparison. They found, and don't hold me to the exact percentages,
that 65% were larger, 20% were the same size and the rest were smaller.
They compared the photos with satellite images.
I know that the AGW religion finds it hard to accept but then look at
the trouble Galileo got into with the church.

Bazz,
Interesting & it supports my (to the GW worshippers unacceptable) beliefs that the Planet continues to evolve on all fronts including geological rise & subsidence of islands.

Just heard that the Morrison Govt ruled out pay cuts for politicians & senior Public Servants during this present Pandemic crisis.
It's one thing the contract a virus & another to commit (political) suicide !

Indy look what the "hated one" across the ditch id doing.

"New Zealand’s prime minister has said she (Jacinda Ardern) and other ministers will take a 20% pay cut lasting six months to show solidarity with those affected by the coronavirus outbreak, as the death toll continues to rise.

Jacinda Ardern said it was important the government’s most highly paid politicians show “leadership and solidarity” with workers on the frontline and those who had lost their livelihoods. Ardern, government ministers and public service chief executives will take the cut for six months, effective immediately.

The pay cut will reduce Ardern’s salary by $47,104. Cabinet ministers would take a cut of NZ$26,900 each, while deputy prime minister Winston Peters’ salary would be cut by $33,473."

NOW INDY, HOW ARE YOU GOING AT ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS. They are not difficult, but you are trying to sneak off because I called you out and showed you up to be WRONG!

"Just heard that the Morrison Govt ruled out pay cuts for politicians & senior Public Servants during this present Pandemic crisis".

Yes. According to our Chairman - oops, Prime Minister- he and his colleagues, along with public servants, are just as important as ICU doctors and nurses! The bloke is going to need some serious watching and monitoring after the Chinese virus crisis. His recently invented Xi-like powers have gone to his head. Prime Minister-for life on the horizon?

Meanwhile, unemployment of real, necessary people, is up to 16% thanks the big knee-jerk; businesses are shut, many never to open again. All for 61 people so far, who who were already on their last legs. All because Morrison listened to non-practising, government doctors, who have their one-track minds set on the medical side with no credence given to the awful human suffering they have created for about 600,000 healthy people who want to work. I wonder if the goons will do the same thing next winter, when 3,000 people could drop off the perch with the flu, as they did two years ago. There should be a day of reckoning for these 'experts' and politician when this is over.

ttbn, it appears you are not in favour of the Governments lock-down policies or its financial support measures, in conjunction with the Labor/LNP states. Several of the Forums 'Usual Suspects' are of that mind set. Do you notice there is no antipathy between the Commonwealth and the States regardless of the individual states political persuasion, in fact its back slapping all round.

Unemployment of a realistic 20% is inevitable, don't be fooled the 'Jobkeeper' program is the hidden unemployed, and at 'New Start' rates of pay it would be good night ScumO' at the next election. The doubling of the dole payment and calling it 'Jobseeker' was a political measure, as are most of the governments fiscal measures. How long they can keep it up, is a good question. The Australian economy will contract by a 6% minimum in the next twelve months, possibly more, that is sizeable by any measure. The Coalitions "Holy Grail", and the conservative mind set of a budget surplus was always somewhat illusionary and simply another political manoeuvre to foster the false notion that the Coalition is somehow better financial managers than the other mob. Given the same conditions, the Coalition will act exactly the same as the Labor party on these things.

Paul1405,
I agree with Adern in case you forgot what I proposed many times here on OLO. Why, even you are against pay cuts only a few posts back !

yep, a very bad look that our politicians are not prepared to take a pay cut.

Disgraceful really.

some MP should raise the matter and call parliament to a vote, private member bill.

"I (individual) agree with Adern" good for you. Well I asked specifically why you wanted to reduce the pay of two public servants, Brendan Murphy and Paul Kelly, by 25-30%. two bureaucrats who in my opinion are doing an excellent service to their fellow Australians. Got anything to say on that? As for others, I'm not of one way or the other. For an appearance of sharing the pain, yep politicians and high paid bureaucrats could take a 20% paycut over six months like the Kiwi mob.

WHY DO YOU NEED TO TELL LIES TO COVER YOUR ARSE ON THE FORUM. You simply dropped off the $18,200 tax free threshold so it would appear a low paid worker on $38,000 p/a would pay less tax with your idea of a 15% flat income tax, which you know is untrue, so you doctor the tax scales to make yourself look good, WHAT A SHAMEFUL LIE. Just as you are happy to give a huge boost to the high income earners, something you can't defend. Then I never expect a lying weasel to respond anyway.

Got anything to say on that?
Paul1405,
Actually I do. They're paid too much for a start. just because a crisis forces them to put their fingers into gear does not warrant such high salaries for the easy years thus far & after this crisis.

...so you doctor the tax scales to make yourself look good,... If you don't agree with the figures you'd better complain to Wikipedia because that's where I found them.

....Just as you are happy to give a huge boost to the high income earners, something you can't defend..... How on Earth did you come to that conclusion ?? When I say senior Bureaucrats' salaries should be reduced should really be crystal clear to anyone, even you, Alas !

To Chris Lewis.

In regards to your questions, I have an observation you might want to consider.

Don't filter out angry complaints. Here's my reasoning. When someone is in a decent mood they often leave well enough alone, regardless if it is an ongoing issue. But when they get angry, then everything comes out. You find out issues you were never aware of when a family member gets angry with you. Things that could have bugged them for years but only comes out because they are in the heat of an argument.

The trade off is that often (but not always) an angry response is an unfair judgment, regardless if it is based on underlying truths. What you might pass off as an angry response could just be someone who's gotten fed up with the same crap they've seen before being done again. That's at least the measure I see ttbn's responses come from when he's said his complaints about people or politics. I have no idea what the source of Paul's outbursts are though. Just disagreements and unwilling to say he was wrong?

So take the thought with a measure that the rule doesn't always apply. But it is worth considering that someone's anger might be justified, even if it's not spelled out why. After that consideration to see if it's justified or not then you can look at the issues and problems a bit fuller.

To Individual

Good list of suggestions. But it seems only #1 and #2 are being talked about with Paul's focused outbursts. Here's the rest again because I think the others should be talked about also.

**
I only just saw your post so 'ere goes:
#1 Establish a 15 months National Service for any unemployed 18-22, Reduce senior Public Service Bureaucrat salaries by 25-30% starting @ 200,000/year incl. ABS & SBS & Judiciary,
#2 Introduce a 15 % Flat tax for wage earners,
#3 for standard traffic violation the penalty should reflect a percentage of the Driver's income rather than one fine for all,
#4 Drug abusers who receive Public Health treatment should be made to make small periodical payments,
#5 Foreign aid should only be in locally manufactured goods so as to provide an industry stimulus that actually works,
#6 Make criminals repay their victims as much as they can & the Govt should make up the balance by way of a Citizen Insurance.
# 7 Introduce a Govt Lottery in which people on basic wage can win a normal wage until retirement,
#8 Stipulate that Lotteries have more realistic & practical prizes such as ten family homes instead of one multi-million Dollar home.
# 9 Reintroduce a Pension Fund to which every salary & wage earner contributes ! No if's no but's !
#10 Start work on an on-going watering the interior project !
# 11 Make barbed fish hooks illegal !
# 12 Make the Judiciary accountable !
I'm certain that now is actually the best opportunity in our lifetime to effect such changes & a healthier mentality will be guaranteed !
**

(Continued)

(Continued)

#s 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12 caught my attention, and I think they should be considered.

#3 might be ok, but it might be easily used to favor some people instead of having the same standards equally for traffic violations. (If wealthy people can cut loopholes in taxes so they don't pull their weight, then I'm sure they can do the same with a sliding rule for fines from violating the laws. All they would have to do is shelter their income into a seperate account like say a cooperation Inc, llc, charity, or other money management venues that allow the owner to say they have less income but still have the resources of their actual high income.

#7 has some concerns, I don't see how that is a manageable option. It sounds like high amounts of government spending to support it.

#11 has me curious. Is barbed hooks harming the fishing industry? Or what is the underlying issue?

To Ttbn

Your right. Regardless of the response to the Covid virus and all of that, having a close eye on China is probabley a very wise concern. Expecially while the world is distracted by the virus.

Though the chances are that China will be recoiling from the virus as well, so they might be leveled on a more even playing ground when the chips thrown in the pot are all accounted for. But for now they are making moves while no one is looking. Thanks for the spotlight on it.

Not_Now.Soon,
Thank you for your input. Of course any of the points I suggested would need to be fine-tuned but the basic idea is to change status quo because status quo is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain. Difficult economically & even more difficult socially.
As for barbed fish hooks, my view is after watching countless times hooks being torn out & all but ripping the animal's insides out before "releasing" it. In most cases the fish do not recover despite popular claims that it doesn't harm them. The "S" shaped hook is easily removed with minimal damage/injury to the animal as the removal does not tear. Many countries are more civilised & banned the use of barbed hooks. The only "threat" I envisage from barbed hooks is the possible deceases an injured fish could spread but the real point I'm trying to make is, are people of such poor mentality that they see nothing wrong with tearing an animal to shreds when they could easily refrain from using barbed hooks. I suppose one way of getting my point across would be to give them the choice of having a barbed hook pulled out of their finger instead of an "S" shaped one ! The other practise that gripes me is leaving fish flapping on a hot jetty until they succumb ! It's about caring ! why am I so passionate about this ? Well, I love scuba diving & watching these colourful animals in their environment but over the years this pleasure has been dimmed by seeing fewer & fewer fish & many with hooks & line trailing !

A win for Indy, barbed hooks for fish should go, but I dare say Indy with his vindictiveness against public servants would be over joyed if we used such hooks on those public servants.

NNS as Indy was too cowardly to answer my simple questions, maybe you can give an opinion. The fact is Indy's proposals have nothing to do with economics, or social justice, but a lot to do with his spiteful attitude to some within the community, young people, low paid workers and public servants. You should note, none of his ideas would impact on him personally as he swings off the govvy teat with his undeserving aged welfare largesse, which he has been collecting for possibly 20 years.

Try this 15% flat tax;

A wager earner with a taxable income of $38,000 presently pays $3900 in tax, under a flat 15% tax that would increase by $1800 to $5700. Where as a wage earner on a taxable income of $380,000 pays $144,000, with a flat tax of 15% that would reduce by $87,000, down to $57,000. REMARKABLE, there's nothing out of the box. Indy did try and hide the $18,200 tax free threshold, but he was soon exposed for that clumsy action.

A part time worker earning $24550 would see their income reduce by 15%, $3,700 down to $20,850. The single aged welfare payment is also $24,550 I asked if that would also reduce by 15%, no response from Indy, as that would impact on himself.

A public servant on $200k would see his income reduce to between $140k-$150k, however a PS on $190k would see no change. Indy admits he was once a PS himself in a menial position, looks like he was jealous of his superiors, and wants to get back at them in some way. Nothing to do with economics or social justice.

taxable income of $38,000 presently pays $3900 in tax, under a flat 15% tax that would increase by $1800 to $5700.
vs now
$37,001 – $90,000 $3,572 + 32.5% for amounts over $37,000
Paul1405,
How many services such as Pension, Dental care, Medicare are included in Tax at present ?
Besides, didn't you read that I actually said that the proposals I put forward will need fine-tuning. It doesn't necessarily have to be exactly 15 % but if some vital services are accommodated then 15% is not excessive in my book. All I am advocating is change from the present system & we all have to contribute, it's as simple as that ! Superannuation should be voluntary, not compulsory & propped up by Tax payers.
CHANGE is the operative word here !

Look at this bullcrap they try to pass off as news:
Why do they lie?

http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/now-is-the-worst-time-to-cut-world-health-organisation-funding-20200417-p54kwb.html

"In any case, whatever the WHO's failings, by the end of January it had issued a clear warning. Governments in the US and Europe must shoulder much of the blame for failing to take it seriously enough."

WTF are they on about?
WHO didn't declare a COVID-19 a pandemic until March 11.

Do they expect me to pay for this crap?
In digital form I can't even wipe my backside with it.
What's the point of today's news?
It's not good for anything except confusing people.

To Paul.

I haven't seen anything from Individual that says he's against young people. Would this tax have a negitive effect on the lower income workers? Probabley, because they have less of an income to start with so any loss would be a bigger deal then those who have more money.

However if I'm reading Individual's suggestion correctly it's about having a universal standard for everyone instead of how some people use tax loopholes and money management schemes to get out of giving their share. This goes to the rich doing this more then the poor. If you have a better suggestion, then state it.

Personally I think taxes should be looked at more carefully. Having them used casually to pay for politician's travel costs, or their expenses without care, just encourages them to use up more of the taxes. Tax programs that work versus the ones that just collect money (later to quietly get resourced for other funds) should be weighted and measured and if the tax program has merit, great. If not and the funds going into it either have no benifit noticed for 2 years (or the funding get routed to other government programs regularly) then chop that tax so it's less of a burden on the people that pay for it.

But for paying for older people who've retired. That is a program worth keeping. Respect the older generation, if you want the same when you are older as well.

To Armchair Critic

The less funding to the UN and it's agencies the better. They are only getting worse and need to be replaced instead of fed more money.

what is anyone's view on manufacturing given china increasingly dominates that sector.

should the west, and Australia, do much more to revive manufacturing?

Hi Chris Lewis,
Regards Aussie manufacturing, if Australians won't go for lower wages then the ONLY WAY to make our nation more competitive is to lower transport and energy costs.

If they can address this problem the money might be well spent.
If they cant, then any money thrown at this sector is almost like throwing good money after bad, because we just can't compete.

The Chinese will take all the chips on the table anyway, their in a more dominant position.
They can buy struggling Aussie businesses at a discount and then just send a few containers over and make it profitable, where the Aussie struggled to make ends meet.

if Australians won't go for lower wages then the ONLY WAY to make our nation more competitive is to lower transport and energy costs.
Armchair Critic,
Leave the wages where they are, just bring down the salaries wasted on Bureaucracy because that's what makes our exports so undesirable ! Price & quality must be on a level that offers an importer of Australian exports the choice of buying here or elsewhere.
Same goes for penalty rates.
Taxpayer funded salaries have become the straw that breaks the Camel's back !
Superannuation for wage earners must never replace the old age Pension unless of course it is Govt guaranteed but something tells me that'll never happen. Pension is much more sustainable as the shareholders don't play & take risks with that money !

i think in this era of robotics, no reason why australia cannot manufacture more.

again china is leading way, but advantage is greater for western countries because wages are higher

China with a population of 1.5 billion, and its strange mix of Communism/Capitalism/Totalitarianism, one thing that is undeniable is the fact China is an economic miracle when compared to similar countries. Incomes for the majority of low paid workers is now around $12,000US p.a with unemployment in China at low levels, historically high at around 6% at present. Compare that to India with a population of 1.3 billion and its form of a Liberal Democracy, India has an average income for low paid workers of $150US p.a and unemployment rate of 8% pre coronavirus.

Nothing excuses human rights violations, and they are well documented in both China and India. Nothing excuses a belligerent attitude towards neighbours, both are guilty of that. So many similarity, but with different political systems giving markedly different outcomes.

yes, but china still able to utilise cheap labour with minimum wage still, as of Jan. 2020,

$US3.16 per hour in Shanghai and $US2.91 in Shenzhen.

it has a huge labour pool to draw upon, and still exploits workers.

Good luck to China, but what about our difficulties which should not be offset by its rise and rise, which i feel is a step back for humanity.

Chris Lewis,

Sounds like a great idea but Australia has become fixated on being a primary producer supplying raw materials to manufacturing areas overseas. A result of globalisation and free trade agreements that have dramatically shaped the global civilisation over the past 30 years. We have basically sold off our industrial infrastructure so it would have to be a quantum leap to industrialise and be effective at it.

yes it would, but incremental change can lead to a trend of change over time.

Change never happens overnight, but the first thing needed is for a society to demand change and ask our leaders to wake from their slumber and abandon short term self interested aims.

While I understand why Australia adopted its policy choices from the 1980s, they always took the easy option.

the reliance on the east producing and the west consuming is increasingly unviable.

i suggested this long ago when i noted that the US would take on China ten years ago

WTF, Payne will not answer questions about China on Insiders.

Some of these liberal politicians are jellybacks in not calling out China.

So its not 'Lee Harvey Fishmonger' from the Wuhan Seafood Market anymore.
- That means that Frydenberg whinging about the wet markets is left looking like the idiot I knew he was.

The corporate media has built a new house of cards.
They now say it's 'Lee Harvey Lab-Assistant' from the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

I hope none of you lot throw good money away paying for your poor quality news.
You're being ripped off if you are.
The best the media are capable of on the big jobs is selling narrative and conjecture.
It truly isn't worth paying for.

When was the last time they got it right on a story that mattered?

i never rely on Australia's mainstream media. how else did we get into the mess we have now with the goons in the Australian years ago supporting the reliance on China and mining for our future.

i like what i am hearing from Greg Sheridan though on Insiders today

Hey AC,

Lee Harvey Lab-Assistant? Yes, under questioning from the Chinese Peoples Internal Bureau of Investigation, a lab-assistant, a Mr Fong made a full and frank confession. Fong admitted that during his lunch hour somewhere between his side order of steamed dim sum and the main course of chop suey he had indeed knocked up a dose of Covid-19, as a birthday surprise for his mother-in-law, tell-tail stains of sweet and sour sauce on his lad coat were a dead giveaway to his criminal activity . Unfortunately before the devious Mr Fong could be brought to justice and admit his criminality in this before the Peoples Court of Justice, he accidentally contracted the virus himself, despite valiant attempts by courageous police officers to dislodge the invasive virus from Mr Fong's brain with repeated firing of their service revolvers, the poor unfortunate Mr Fong expired. I read that in the 'Wuhan Daily'. Great source of facts, no fake news there.

Chris Lewis,

After watching Marise Payne on The Insiders this morning I'm starting to get the impression that 'In China We Trust" will soon be the new motto for the LNP. She totally refused to say she did not trust China in light of the Wuhan Pandemic (or just WP as I like to call it.)

I was shocked to hear how a RAAF plane couldn't land in Vanuatu because the runway had been taken over by a Chinese plane and the RAAF plane had to return to Australia without unloading its aid cargo.

How long before China blockades Australia and sucks us dry? Jared Diamond in his Collapse said that the Chinese migrants to Australia and the US are an invasive species, similar to cane toads, rabbits, and foxes. I see them more as parasites.

Every Chinese is born a future ancestor irrespective of where they are born and every future Chinese ancestor has an allegiance to the ancestral homeland, the resting place of the spirits. I think Australia will have a big internal problem on its hands when an aggressive China begins to make demands.

Mr Opinion,

it will be interesting. that is why we must act now to ensure that China's influence is minimised in Australia and elsewhere.

Problem is that money talks; hence Australian policy leaders are reluctant to openly criticise given our almost pathetic reliance upon an authoritarian nation.

Chris Lewis,

I see sharp parallels between the actions of Imperial Japan in the lead up to the Pacific War of WW2 and China's hegemonic expansion into SE Asia and the SW Pacific.

Japan tried to throw a military cordon around Australia. China is trying to throw a cordon around us by its annexation of the South China Sea followed with aid to the SW Pacific island nation-states.

Why did the Australian governments allow so many Chinese to immigrate knowing that Chinese across generations share an allegiance to their ancestral homeland. A case of the enemy already being inside the gates when the crunch comes.

i am open on our chinese domestic population. i think most embrace what Australia, as a western society, offers.

in other words,i have faith in liberal democracy still.

Chris Lewis,

I disagree with you there.

Every Chinese is born a future ancestor that propitiates a millennia long obligation towards the familial and lineage spirits. It's a bond that I don't think too many Chinese whether born in or outside of China would consider breaching for the sake of both their ancestors and the own descendants.

I don't think Australian Chinese will consider it anathema to embrace a Chinese empire when it presents itself. In the end it comes down to structural affinities based around culture, descent and obligation.

Now that the reason for the Chinese buy up of various medial supplies
by Chinese Developer companies in Australia, before knowledge of how
serious the risk was from the virus, we need to deal with those companies.
They demonstrated that they were agents of a foreign power.
This is not what we require of supposedly Australian companies.
They should have their company registration cancelled and be required to
sell their land holdings and leave the country.