I'm feeling lazy this morning, and rather than 'review' an article, I would like to recommend that you read it for yourselves, if you haven't already. It's the one recommended by Graham in his email this morning, from 'Henry Thornton' entitled, 'Australia's economic situation'. Scary but, in my view, much more realistic than the polly waffle from the PM, the Treasurer and all politicians hiding the truth from us. http://www.henrythornton.com/single-post/2020/02/23/Australias-economic-situation

A little something from economist, Peter Smith, in his Quadrant Online article , 'Thoughts on Australia’s Own Ex-Car':

"Sadly, and inexplicably, in my view, we don’t make cars anymore. Nor do we any longer make electrical goods or not many; nor clothes or, again, not many of them. We have outsourced most of our manufacturing and all of the great variety of skills it entails, and all the small businesses it supports, and all the richness it brings to our national culture. And if you think that is a good thing you are no doubt one of those libertarian types who believe in “free trade” whatever the cost to national life. Cheap stuff is apparently the sine qua non of our existence."

While the Maynard Keynes fans rabbit on about low interest rates making for more spending to help the economy, Smith says that "The production side of the national accounts is where economists should be looking; not the spending side". Consumer spending is largely offset by imports.

"Making a car adds to our wealth. Buying a car does not."

We are referred to an article by Greg Sheridan the loss of car manufacturing -

"“This disaster,” ….. “was brought about by a combination of green costs on industry, ludicrous power prices and grievously misplaced free-market economic nostrums. The net result was a catastrophic loss of capacity, complexity and competence across our economy, a dumbing-down of society, a needless limitation on our potential and a serious dent in our national security.”

Sheridan argues that we didn't lose Holden because of external circumstances, but because of "... a conscious choice born of lack of ambition and lack of will.” There could be something in that. Australian governments to date haven't been up to the challenge of anything that's not easy. The current one has proved to be a master of sweeping stuff under the rug.

So, what else is wrong with the Australian economy?

Low consumer spending

Hesitant business investment

Global slowdown

Fall in employment. Up to 23% youth unemployment in some areas

PM and Treasurer ignoring the herd of elephants in their 'all's well' speeches

Unnecessary cuts to interest rates reigniting the house price boom

Slowdown in exports

Crowded roads

Insufficient government services

Oversupply of low quality high rise flats. Many with illegal, flammable cladding that will have to be fixed at some stage.

Increasing demand for elderly and disabled care

Rising costs of the absurd decision to convert a French nuclear submarine to diesel, which will be obsolete before the first one is finished.

Financial expert, Roger Gottliebsen, says that we are in for a downtown, and asks what is planned to deal with it.

Morrison: "Josh. What's the plan?"
Treasure: "What's a plan?"

Hey ttbn,
Thanks for posting the article.
Australia's situation doesn't look very good going forward.

I found a youtube channel a few days back that seems to have a focus on the Australian economy.

It's called 'In the Interests of the People'
I'm not sure how good the content is, as I haven't yet watched any of the videos, but it looks like it might be alright.
Here's a link to all the channels video content.
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzwmB2wn8Slp3hko2Gpj2iA/videos

AC,

Thanks for the videos.

I know it sounds a little weird, but I can't get rid of this feeling that we (Australia), is being played.
It's as if we are being used for some social experiment, or similar.
I have had the feeling that we are being brought down to a level which will require us to ask for help, and in doing so we will be selling our soul to the devil.
I can't think of another country that has fallen from financial and social grace, so fast as we have.
I keep feeling that this decline or demise has been created with the obvious agenda in mind.
Are we part of some socio-economic experiment?
Is there some kind of conspiracy at play here, and I just can't see it?
Whatever the case, it's too obvious and too quick, a transformation of fortunes, for the worse, and it is not clear as to why it has happened.
I think I know how, but it seems all to simplistic and easy.
But if I'm right then we can begin to believe that the conspiracy theories have substance.
But just like trying to identify who is a terrorist amongst a crowd of people,I don't know which of these conspiracies are the right ones.

I'm not sure who could be doing the "playing", ALTRAV, and I think that the dropping to a lower level is more noticeable because we have been doing much better than other countries for a long time. I think that the current government is resting on the laurels of the Howard era. They still think 'she'll be right' when she obviously ain't any more.

I think the main problem is the lack of distinction between the Coalition and Labor these days. I think that we have two lefty parties. Morrison is a social conservative, but not a political conservative; and he will not or cannot discipline the left-leaning members of his government; he also spends too much time defending himself from Opposition criticism, rather than leading. I'm buggered if I can work out what he even believes or stands for.

ttbn,

There's a lot more to manufacturing than fabrication. I know fabrication used to be a high value activity in your day, but automation and globalization have taken most of the value out of it. Nowadays the design is much more valuable.

And it's all very well saying we should focus on the production side, but have you noticed what's holding it back? Lack of demand is one of the biggest factors.

There is more to it than that, of course. The single biggest factor in the demise of our car industry was the RBA setting interest rates needlessly high in the Gillard era, which in turn sent our dollar unsustainably high. It's lost 40% of its value since then, but the damage was done.

Nevertheless, the car industry was in decline; had it not gone already I think it would probably be shutting down now.

And I make no apologies for being one of those libertarians who regard free trade as a good thing. Why should our economy favour certain low value activities at the expense of our more competitive industries?

"Big tech has long promised near-miraculous accomplishments. But other than making a few people very rich and life more convenient for consumers, it has failed to deliver." ('Financial Review')

"Decades from now, historians will likely look back on the beginning of the 21st century as a period when the smartest minds in the world’s richest country sank their talent, time and capital into a narrow band of human endeavour – digital technology.

Their efforts have given us frictionless access to media, information, consumer goods, and chauffeurs. But software has hardly remade the physical world. We were promised an industrial revolution. What we got was a revolution in consumer convenience."

Too much glamourous stuff (which we don't even make here) and not enough hard work, like making things. Manufacturing, not consumer spending, is where the wealth is.

The Australian government is not the only one to have made desperate promises in the region to fool the punters, knowing full well that they were lying - or were they just too stupid to know what is possible. Either way, they have no right to be trying to run a country's economy.

In New Zealand, the you-beaut, trust us policy, was called Kiwibuild. This monster was 'guaranteed' to build 100,000 high quality, low cost houses in 10 years.

The whole thing fell apart as unachievable after only 47 houses were completed. I'll bet the geniuses who thought that one up aren't out of pocket - just another hit on the economy by desperados in government, who still have a 50-50 chance of being elected no matter what they stuff up. They wouldn't risk their own money, but they make free with ours.

ttbn,
There doesn't seem to be any evidence of deception regarding KiwiBuild, nor any great stupidity. It seems like a simple case of overestimating their capability then pulling the plug when they realised it wasn't working as planned. What they thought would be a big success ended up as a small failure.

Am I correct in surmising you're of the opinion that the risk of failure means governments should never try anything?

It's amazing how blind you are to the benefits of digital technology. It has improved, and in many cases revolutionised, the way things are done in almost every industry. And of those that it hasn't impacted yet, it's only a matter of time before it does.

>Too much glamourous stuff (which we don't even make here) and not enough hard work, like making things.
Hard work is no longer where much value lies. Far better to opt for smart work instead.

>Manufacturing, not consumer spending, is where the wealth is.
Please tell me you don't subscribe to the labour theory of value :-)

Aidan, EVERYTHING has a labour content to it, even your much loved digital technology.
Anything man does, creates, constructs, fabricates, even computers, has an element of design, but without any labour involved it will not happen.
And that is across the board, even computer manufacturing, even though a lot is done by robotics today, man is still needed in the mix somewhere, to use his hands and not his head.
The demise of Australian employment of ALL industries, is simple, the pay rate/scale!
BUT, as someone has already pointed out, if we don't get or have any orders, we are producing NOTHING.
We WON'T get the orders because we are too expensive in every sector of industry, and domestically as well.
Even I refuse to give Aussie companies contracts, unless they produced specific items and were not available anywhere else, such as Asia.
So let's recap.
Firstly we reduce our costs, wages, taxes, energy and so on.
And I mean by a third to a half, not some piddly 3 or 4%.
Then we look for markets where we can compete.
It won't be too long before the orders come in.
This method does not affect our cost of living because our internal costs will reduce, as long as everyone follows through, like the govt reducing their huge fuel gouging tax, and a million other costs.
The only things that will/should be dearer will be imports, and as far as I am concerned, they can go and get stuffed.
This way at least, we will have a healthy employment ledger and people will have plenty of work again.
I get the feeling when I look around at what is a sinking ship, that we are going to be forced into what I have speculated anyway.
Let's see, time will out.

Well it's not all bad.

Poles apart: Meet ‘anti-Greta’, 'climate realism' activist
http://youtu.be/l2cYMa5a71s

I wonder if the 'pandemic emergency' announced by the PM will make him realise the dangers of our over-reliance on China to keep our economy turning. No? I don't think it will either.

nothing should surprise about Aust's decline. signs were evident for decades.

thankfully Australia has a lot of stuff in ground

"thankfully Australia has a lot of stuff in ground"

That would be the same stuff that the looney left says is causing climate change - the stuff that we shouldn't be mining and exporting?

ttbn, well the looney left, and everyone else for that matter, can now relax and discard any fears they have been ignorantly harboring.
GW is apparently happening, but not as we have been mis-led to believe.
And IF it is happening it's because of the planet's natural life cycle.
These cycles I am eluding to, in particular, occur over the course of several hundred years.
Because of this, we do not get SUDDEN changes in climate, but SUBTLE ones, so we do not get CLIMATE SHOCK.
Now as it turns out the CO2 is directly linked to heating and cooling.
So we have been told a white lie, because even though CO2 is linked to temperature, it is released only AFTER and because of increases in temp, no matter how small.
Being that the oceans are ONE of the largest deposits or stores of CO2, it then releases CO2, BECAUSE IT IS WARMING!
So remember, warming FIRST, then CO2, not the other way round, and NOT because we are burning fossil fuels.
As I have said many times, man's antics on this planet have done NOTHING to harm or influence the planet.
So get on with your lives as you have always done and the next time someone tries to brow beat or shirt front you on us being the cause of GW, smack em in the face, preferably the mouth so they won't be able to speak of such rubbish, at least for as long as it takes for their injuries to heal.

ALTRAV,
It looks like you've just discovered one little part of what the climatologists knew decades ago, but because of your irrational belief that CO2 does not cause warming, you've completely misunderstood its implications.

You've found one half of a feedback mechanism. Warming (originally from a change in the solar radiation we receive) causes more CO2 to be released, which causes more warming, which causes more CO2 to be released, which causes more warming...

Eventually another change in the amount of solar radiation the planet receives results in cooling and a decrease in CO2, which results in more cooling and a further decrease in CO2 levels, resulting in more cooling.

And because of that, atmospheric CO2 levels have fluctuated with minima between 180 and 200ppm, and maxima between 280 and 300ppm.

And because of human activity, we're currently at 420ppm.
Despite a small decline in the amount of solar radiation we're receiving, the planet is still getting warmer.

ttbn,
In most countries right is as aware of the causes of climate change as the left is.
Anyway, we have plenty of other stuff in the ground, like iron ore, bauxite, copper and zinc ores etc.

I hope your lack of response regarding digital technology is a sign you're researching it more, rather than a case of ignoring it because it doesn't suit your narrative.

___________________________________________________________________________________

ALTRAV,
Just because everything has a labour component to it doesn't mean the value of the goods is closely related to it.

>The demise of Australian employment of ALL industries, is simple, the pay rate/scale!
No, it's even simpler: it's a figment of your imagination. Australian companies are still profitable! Australia is a strong exporting nation, and a world leader in field robotics and biotechnology.

And your solution is plain dumb:
>Firstly we reduce our costs, wages, taxes, energy and so on.
>And I mean by a third to a half, not some piddly 3 or 4%.
You want to reduce the living standards of Australians!

And you demonstrate your ignorance when you say:
> This method does not affect our cost of living because our internal costs will reduce,
>as long as everyone follows through, like the govt reducing their huge fuel gouging
>tax, and a million other costs.
Our fuel tax, which is low compared to most western countries, is used to fund our transport infrastructure. Do you want to see that neglected?
And not everyone can follow through. No bank will reduce your debt level just because you're earning less.

As I said above, our uncompetitiveness is a figment of your imagination. But hypothetically if we were uncompetitive, the market would devalue or dollar, which would automatically make us competitive again. Your idiotic internal devaluation plan would be completely unnecessary.

Aidan, it will keep getting warmer until it reaches it's natural highest temp, then begin a slow return to it's coldest natural limits.
CO2 will automatically move in and out of it's natural haven's and will adjust accordingly.
CO2 levels many years ago exceeded what we are seeing today.
It will keep rising until it reaches it's natural saturation point based on such things as flora demands.
Ultimately we do not produce enough CO2 to make any effect on the planet.
The worse that is going to happen is the earth will undergo an increase in vegetation, which has been slowly happening, and in places where it was once baron.
This is normal and has been going on since the world was began.
My point is, what is happening is natural and not of man's doing.

Aidan, ny "plan", as you put it is one of the few that would work, irrespective of your objections.
If you take a more broadened and pragmatic look at what I suggest, you cannot but see the value and subsequent benefits.
Your steadfast assertion that Australia is competitive, IN ANY WAY, is a figment of YOUR imagination.
For God's sake man, why do you refuse to see what's going on around you.
Govt's are not there for the good of the people.
And if you expect to rely on "the markets" for any answer, your not as aware as you believe.
The answer relies on US doing something about our situation, not someone else.
Everyone else is busy lining their own pockets, and will take ANY opportunity to shaft ANYONE, given the chance.
No if we don't devalue ourselves, no-one is going to do it for us.
You are wrong when you say that Australian companies are world leaders.
They are world leaders of nothing except your imagination.
Anything we have done of note is not of any real value to our bottom line as a nation, like mining, and farming exports.
As for your misguided remarks on our standard of living dropping if we use my formula, you obviously did not read or understand what I wrote.
What I wrote is that by reducing all these internal expenses, everything drops so when you go to the shop you will still be able to buy the same goods and services as before because the cost to cost ratio drops across the board.
What I said was that the cost of imports will be dearer, to which I said, they can go and get stuffed, implying that we buy Aussie, instead of imported.
All that I said will never happen because of the greed and averace of certain people who believe that keeping prices high helps such things as taxation and inflation, which if you have any idea of such things, ultimately proves to be a huge impost on the consumer.
My way the only thing to suffer are the imports!

Wow, ALTRAV, you really do have your head in the sand!

You're so convinced that CO2 isn't to blame that you're grasping at whatever straws you can see. Scientists know HOW the CO2 has a warming effect, but your cognitive dissonance means that you're under the delusion impossible for CO2 to have caused the current warming. And you regard the world's climate scientists as either corrupt or incompetent because they don't share your delusion!

Tell me, is your belief a reaction against the (incorrect) hypothesis that taking action to avert climate change would require the abandonment of capitalism? And if not that, what?

You don't seem to appreciate that it has been FOURTEEN MILLION YEARS since atmospheric CO2 levels were higher than they are today. And although the rate of temperature change is still just about in the subtle zone, sudden changes have occurred before and were catastrophic. Have you ever heard of the Permian Extinction?

__________________________

If Australia is not the world leader in field robotics, who is?
If we're so uncompetitive, why do you think the markets haven't devalued our dollar a lot more?
Why do you pretend that mining, and farming exports are "not of any real value to our bottom line as a nation"?

Internal devaluations are politically pretty near impossible, and with good reason. The prices of everything DON'T suddenly drop at all, let alone by the amount wages drop. People have the same debts, but with less money coming in it's harder to service them.

What do you imagine a consumer would gain from having his wages drop 30%, compared to having the value of the Aussie dollar drop 30%

Aidan, I know mining and farming are good for our bottom line.
I did not proof read, as I was in a hurry to get the comments out asap.
The world leaders in robotics are Japan, Korea, and a couple of others I can't think of at this moment.
As for our dollar devaluation, there are too many factors, all of them based on external market forces.
My suggestion is that if we do it, we can do it in a controlled way.
If we leave it to the market, we will be raped.
What the consumer is supposed to look at over time is that a 30% drop in wages along with all the other factors affecting manufacturing, energy, govt charges and so on, EVENTUALLY will result in us being competitive again on the world markets, and so we will get orders and job growth.
As for my head in the sand on CO2, see the following;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEmUS7PAWFw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMF9aMI-9ek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewJ6TI8ccAw

And these are just a few, there are too many now for any alarmists to refute this attack on us based on lies and fraud.
If you need more proof, just ask.

ALTRAV,

I accept climate change, I just don't care about it or worry about it. You can't fight nature.

Climate change should get a break for a while, though, thanks to the corona virus, which the media and kneejerkers are hyperventilating about currently.

"Scientists know HOW the CO2 has a warming effect"

Scientists also released a pandemic bioweapon upon mankind.
If these people get good at their jobs, they might just wipe out all human life on the planet.

Armchair,
Counterpart was a very good TV series, but was not reality!

________________________________________________________________

ttbn,
Whether you can fight nature depends on what you mean by "fight". Humans have altered many environments and sent many species extinct.

When we've sent atmospheric CO2 levels 50% higher than they would naturally be, blaming nature is a copout to avoid admitting responsibility.

________________________________________________________________

ALTRAV,
I see you're shifting the goalposts to robotics in general! Japan's good at factory robotics, but not as good as Australia in field robotics.

>As for our dollar devaluation, there are too many factors, all of them based on external market forces.
Too many factors for what? Haven't you noticed many of them cancel each other out? The number of factors is not proportional to the damage they cause.

>If we leave it to the market, we will be raped.
If leaving it to the market is akin to rape, a centrally planned internal devaluation is akin to genocide!

>What the consumer is supposed to look at over time is that a 30% drop in wages along with all the
>other factors affecting manufacturing, energy, govt charges and so on, EVENTUALLY will result
>in us being competitive again on the world markets, and so we will get orders and job growth.

Ah yes, they're supposed to look at the positives and ignore the ruination of their living standards!
Never mind that all those other factors won't behave as you assume them to.
Never mind that the government can always create job growth just by putting more money into the economy...

It's all moot anyway. Our uncompetitiveness is a figment of your imagination; Australia has been running a trade surplus for the last couple of years! See http://tradingeconomics.com/australia/balance-of-trade

And climate denialism is fraudulent no matter how many videos they have on Youtube.

Aidan, I realise OLO is an "opinion" based forum, but I believe that some opinions are just that, with little or no factual or natural content.
All that I say is speculative and merely suggesting the obvious.
The fact that there exists forces with selfish agenda to counter or stop what I suggest is not unusual.
I completely dissagree with the notion that, all the govt has to do is print more money to achieve absolutely NOTHING but debt and put us further in the poo.
You incorrectly assume we will lower our standard of living, with my suggestion.
I was specific in saying that our standard of living will NOT change.
We will NOT see any difference except for the price of imports, and as I said, they can go and get stuffed, because imports means money leaving Australia.
My way we can export once more and thereby creating jobs.
Sure we will have to make sacrifices, so what, as an example, I see it as if we are in the sh!t and could not afford to make a car repayment.
You can either do nothing and wait for it to be repossessed, in which case you are trusting a bunch of thieves to auction your car off and get 'nothing' for it, or you can advertise it yourself and at least have some control in getting the best price for it.
Those people with mortgages won't feel anything other than having to take longer to pay off their homes.
Those with investment properties are speculators, they new they were putting their money or borrowing against something that could go either way, like shares.
Now, no one on this side of the fence is denying anything which is true.
We are denying that GW is man made, it's not!
The planet is doing what it has done forever, we just were not here when it last warmed up.
It will eventually cycle back to a cold period.
It turns out that first the planet warms, and then CO2 in the ocean is slowly released relative to the temperature rise.

Aidan, I forgot to mention, our income has nothing to do with labour.
The only and main exports we have are ALL land based, like, mining, farming, and so on.
WE are nothing, do not exist, in the REAL world of exports.
WE have NO discernible manufacturing industry, no value added exports worth talking about, and the list goes on.
What kind of fruitless endeavor are you talking about, that makes you think that printing money actually brings money into the kitty?
EXPORTS, EXPORTS, EXPORTS, got it?
Thank God we are lucky enough to have iron ore, coal, gas, wheat, animal exports, and so on.
Aidan, these industries have very few people, we need value added jobs, and we need those items that have been value added to be exported, this will NOT happen unless we lower our labour rates.
Sorry to tell an inconvenient truth, but Aussies have been living the good life, the high life, waaaay above their natural living standards.
As they say in economics, instead of a downturn or similar, they say we are having a "correction".
Correction my arse, it's a downturn, it's a negative, it's bad.
So instead of printing money and only making our situation worse, we should be tightening our belts, taking stock and accepting that we need to turn things down a little, and yes there will be pain, but if every player, especially the govt joins in, demand will increase, jobs will increase, exports will increase, and we will end up with the ideal result.
Our standard of living does not change, because our internal costs have all come down together at the same rate.
The only thing to change is imports becoming more expensive.
So what, buy Australian or those people can go and get stuffed as well, if they don't like it, I for one, don't care.
So Aidan if you can't see that if we don't curb our internal costs, like wages, it will be done for us in the end, and trust me, it will not be pretty.
So let's fix things ourselves before others do.

Dear Armchair critic,

In the Interest of the People has some reasonable stuff but a far amount is overblown. Which is kind of understandable as these guys are in bed with the Citizens Electoral Council and they most certainly are a weird mob.

SR, OK now you've hit a nerve.
In the interest of truth and clarity, I suggest you are challenged to clarifying your otherwise wild, ignorant and arrogant slur about the CEC.
Unless you are an internal and viable part of this group you so quickly and vigorously attack and demean, I strongly suggest you shut up, as your comments and opinions about yet another thing you know nothing about only make you look even more desperate and needy, keen to show up anyone you disapprove of, based on YOUR twisted logic and reasoning.
So now that you've let the cat out of the bag, I challenge you to explain and justify your unsolicited denigrating of a group who are actually doing some good.
Unlike you and your mates.
Sad, and very low brow.

AC don't listen to the d!ckwad trying to denigrate the CEC.
He is a fool and has demonstrated it clearly once more, by his latest comments about the CEC.
The CEC has been at the forefront of all the cons the govt has unleashed on us, beginning with the disgraceful and devious way they pushed through the 'Bail-in' legislation.
It's now law.
Look it up.
Then there's the cash reduction laws they are trying to push through right now, which at inception is going to stop us from withdrawing/handling more than $10,000 cash, with an eventual follow-on of $3,000, then later $1,000.
But don't take my word for it look it up, you've got all the video's to tell the full stories.
And definitely stop listening to nasty little, know nothings like SR.

Hey SteeleRedux and ALTRAV,

I've only watched a small part of one of the videos so far.
I watched the one titled 'Queensland's Debts Are Spiraling Out Of Control' here.
http://youtu.be/SPTvOi_m8Lk

Thank you both for sharing your views and info.
I'm happy to hear alternative viewpoints on topics I know little about.
- And I don't know a real lot about the CEC or technical aspects of financial stuff.

Regarding cashless society ALTRAV, I just made a similar comment over on ttbn's 'Hands Off Our Cash' thread, so I do kind of know which way the wind is blowing, but thanks for sharing what you know.

Have the CEC been trying to tell people about these things, and SR thinks their claims are a little overblown / exaggerated / nutty?

In which case, fair enough I think I see the bigger picture now.
And it's ok, I still thank you both for your views and info.

Altrav,
I think you may have missed many of my points, so this time I'm numbering them to make it harder for you to lose track or ignore them.

1. AUSTRALIA CURRENTLY EXPORTS MORE THAN IT IMPORTS!
Our uncompetitiveness is a figment of your imagination. I've posted the link to refute your deluded assertion that our competitiveness is a figment of my imagination.

2. China took most of the value out of value adding.
Value adding was big in he 1990s. Most people, including our leaders, thought it was crucial to our future. But now there's not so much money in putting things together. What you regard as "value added jobs" are now the low value jobs that we're better off without. Australians are capable of so much more!

3. Financially, corrections are devaluations not downturns.

4. It's not a "kitty".
The idea that there's a fixed amount of money is rubbish. It's nearly all borrowed into existence.
Although printing money is NEVER EVER a substitute for working, there are times (and places) where doing so enables more work to be done. When demand is depressed, increasing supply generally isn't profitable.

5. Hypothetically if we had a huge trade deficit, your idea of an enormous internal devaluation would be just about the worst outcome imaginable. It would make the poor much poorer. Prices wouldn't immediately drop the way you imagine them to (even disregarding the price of imports which you seem to think poor consumers don't deserve the benefit of). It would be a lot harder to service existing debts - something you've twice ignored. Is your objective to punish poor people for daring to borrow money?

6. Rather than the economic catastrophe of your idea to turn us into a third world basket case by cutting wages, or even the business as usual approach of leaving it all to the markets, what we should be doing is increasing our ability to do high value work; that way our economy will be able to support higher wages.

To do this more effectively requires more research spending, better education and infrastructure.

Australians are capable of so much more!
Aidan,
I'd like to think so too but as long as we have their insipid cousins looking for exploiting loopholes instead of closing them, I'm afraid Status Quo will be order of the day !

Aidan, answering you by your own numbers;

1. You should read my comments again.
Yes we PROBABLY export more we import, but nothing that is going to help our un-employed.
It's a fact!
2. What a stupid thing to say, try telling a welder he's better off out of work because we are better off without his profession.
IT'S WORK, you moron.
And Aussies are really NOT capable of more.
3. Really? Semantics?
4. The current system has not worked, so let's try staying in the black instead.
This system only helps thieves/speculators.
5. We don't have huge trade deficit, so stop talking rubbish.
The poor are poor and can't afford imports anyway.
Poor or not we should buy Aussie anyway, don't care if someone can't buy imported goods, too bad, it won't kill them.
6. Now I know you really have no idea of what you speak.
Firstly, NO, absolutely NO increase in wages.
Why do think we are in this mess in the first place.
Have you been paying attention or not?
Secondly, we are incapable of 'high value' jobs.
That way we will not be able to support high value jobs because, you twat, THEY'RE TOO EXPENSIVE!
No to research spending, we are getting ripped off with nothing to show for it.
The education and infrastructure, situation, we are told repeatedly, are amongst the best in the world, I think the words they use are; WORLD CLASS!
No matter what you say, your way does NOTHING to get us jobs, TODAY.
We have experience in construction/fabrication/engineering, ALL value added and labour dependent jobs.
All that's missing is the final cost of our products.
So drop our internal costs, goods and services, and we immediately become competitive again.
If we do it our selves we might just come out at second world level.
Let others do it because we had your blind misguided ideals, and we just might be kicked down to third world.
WE won't suffer any social or economic shock, because the economy would come down together, so the internal financial interactions will be no different.

An old mate of mine worked in Maryborough building railway rolling stock & locomotives, another built small commercial ships there. Today no one builds anything but houses in the district, & they ride trains imported from Korea. Today the freight those ships carried is transported on mostly imported trucks.

Even the railway industries in our major cities no longer build things like railway, earth moving gear, or even cars. We used our existing industrial skills to build hundreds of aircraft during WW11, but I doubt we have the capacity left to do it today.

It is quite fair to say we have become a country of bludgers, "B" grade teachers & burger flippers. God help our grand kids, they will be the poor white trash of the south Pacific, if we don't change our ways. Yep she'll most definitely not be right.

Hasbeen, there is NO magic pill.
The AVERAGE AUSSIE did this by being greedy, selfish, arrogant and completely devoid of any long term vision.
They accepted the BS the unions put out, and got their higher wages and ultimately achieved nothing.
Had the wages remained low, the internal economy, the thing you and I have to deal with and called the "cost of living" would not change.
The difference would have been that we would not have to import all the things we used to make here, as you so rightly point out.
On top of that we would have been serious contenders for exporting the very goods and services we now import.
This is NOT my imagination or speculation, it is economic and historical fact.
This absolute stupidity of increasing wages when we know that it increases every other thing around us, so just where is the benefit of increasing wages, when the price of goods and services, MUST go up, because you increased the (dare I say it yet again) WAGES.
There is absolutely no truth or weight behind the foolish belief that you increase wages, then you have more money to spend.
IDIOTS, one and all.
All they're doing is making our exports unviable and the govt happier because they collect more income tax.
What absolute morons and idiots out there actually believing that the company would absorb the increase of their wages.
They pass it on to, yep you guessed it, YOU!
The sooner the left/labor/union idiots ditch their stupid left ideals the sooner we can begin our economic recovery.

Dear Armchair Critic,

CEC.

"The party espouses the claim that the Port Arthur massacre, in which Martin Bryant murdered 35 people and injured 37 others, was instigated by mental health institute the Tavistock Institute on the orders of the British Royal Family."
Wikipedia

Yup fruitloops of the finest kind who attract our fringe dwelling folk. Not everything they put up is without merit but really whacky on so much.

SR, you know who is whacky, with a side of fruit-loops?
YOU!
Again you dare speak of something YOU know absolutely nothing about.
You come across as an arrogant know-it-all, along with your running mates, and you know how well they have been received.
OK, I am if nothing else, open minded.
Assuming we all agree with you, then it is upon you to explain and justify why YOU disagree with someone far more aware and worldly than you, with access to people and information far more than you will ever imagine.
What is it that you know which would lead us to believe you and not the CEC?
This much I DO know about the CEC, they have affiliations in other countries and are continually seeking out facts and figures, in an attempt to expose the truth about what govt's do or try to do.
So far they have been right.
They are far more aware of global antics than YOU will ever be or ever dream to be.
So unless you are part of the Royal Family or the Tavistock Institute, the best thing you can do is shut up and say nothing, or speak up and debunk this allegation.
I have no idea of it's veracity, but I follow the CEC and if I'm not mistaken, you quoted Wikipedia.
If that's the case then even more stupid than you yourself have admitted by even writing the comment in the first place.
Were you bored and like Mr O seeking some kind of a "look at moi" moment.
For the record, the "City of London" is corrupt and evil as they are part of the elite group, so it doea not surprise me if it turns out to be true.
But what the hey, Mr SR says it's all bull, then it must be.

Re: Port Arthur Massacre.

I watched a documentary quite a few years ago that went over a lot of the issues.
I've got to say that I felt at the time of watching the documentary that there was a number of unanswered questions, and a number of weird events or coincidences which cast some suspicion over the official narrative.

I wish I could find that documentary, I searched my YouTube history for it, but it's not there, maybe YouTube deleted the video.
(It happens quite often on YouTube these days.)

I don't know what the truth of it all is, but I felt (after these facts were laid out) that some of those issues couldn't simply be coincidences and that there might've been more to the story.

- Truthfully though, I wasn't there so I don't really know.

ALTRAV,
1. I've been consistent and correct, whereas you've been proved wrong, so why should I bother reading your comments again.
We should of course create jobs for the unemployed, and this would be relatively easy if the government weren't so fixated on running a surplus. Full employment is always achievable regardless of our balance of trade.

2. We'll probably always need welders. But we won't need factories full of welders doing the same thing over and over again. Those jobs have been automated away, and good riddance! There's no advantage in doing this kind of low value work. Why do you think Aussies are incapable of doing more? It may surprise you to learn we don't all share your stupidity!

3. You made a claim based on a semantic error, so it was worth pointing out something I'd normally let slide.

4. The current system has brought a mixture of successes and failures, The sensible course of action would be to examine the reasons for those successes and failures, so that the successes can be replicated and the failures avoided. The stupidest possible course of action would be to replace the entire system with something that's certain to fail.

5. I'm glad that you finally admit we don't have the trade deficit that you felt warranted slashing everyone's wages. But I see it hasn't stopped you talking rubbish!

>The poor are poor and can't afford imports anyway.
Imports aren't always more expensive, and in some cases there's no locally made alternative at all.

>Poor or not we should buy Aussie anyway, don't care if someone can't buy imported goods, too bad, it won't kill them.
International trade benefits both the sellers and the buyers. Why should we deny everyone the benefits?

6. Your insults better describe yourself, for it's clear you don't even know the difference between value and cost! The value of jobs is how lucrative they are for employers.

I'll leave this discussion here for tonight to give this crucial point time to sink into your thick head, but I can explain it further if you like.

Oh come off it Aidan, governments can't create jobs, other than of the pretend make work variety, all they can do is create the conditions & environment that enables private business to create jobs.

Both Russia & China had to create a capitalist economy to enable their entrepreneurs to generate the prosperity they now enjoy.

Both were total failures while their central government tried to run industry.

Aidan, I don't know your level of experience or competence for that matter, but suffice to say that you demonstrate a reasonable amount of naivety and ignorance about the realities of life and the difference between subjective and objective reasoning.
I won't waste my time reading your diatribe again, I did it once so as to ensure I got it right.
I will however respond by firstly asking you if you heard the definition of insane.
Well it goes something like this; Someone who keeps doing the same thing again and again, expecting a different outcome.
You moron, you are promoting, advocating a system that has clearly failed and has us in the sh!t right now.
The suggestions you have made in contradiction to mine are nothing more than the same crap we have always had, and IT DOESN'T WORK!
I on the other hand have got the runs on the board, I have established my own business both in Australia and abroad.
I speak from experience, what do you have to offer?
An accedemic view of a failed system?
I have made my point agree, disagree, don't care.
You are not in a position to make ANY difference to our working class and increasing our financial and international standing any time soon, actually at all.
So when you are prepared to see what I'm trying to put to you, give me a call and maybe then you will have experienced a little more of life and the REAL world.

Dear Armchair Critic,

It is a far cry from seeing a few inconsistencies in a documentary to believing the Royals done it.

"The Rough Guide to Conspiracy Theories notes that the Tavistock Institute has been named by some conspiracy theorists as having a part in "The most extravagant anti-Illuminati conspiracy theory" of John Coleman "known as [the] 'Aquarian Conspiracy'. This totalitarian agenda culminates in the Illuminati 'taking control of education in America with the intent and purpose of utterly and completely destroying it.'" By "'means of rock music and drugs to rebel against the status quo, thus undermining and eventually destroying the family unit'.""
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tavistock_Institute

So you can see the institute hs been a perennial favourite for conspiracy theorists and so it is perfectly true to form for the fruit loops to trot it out over the Port Arthur massacre.

Isn't it strange how you are now one of the more reasoned types from your side of the fence on this forum. The unraveling of the right is getting ugly.

SR, one thing I am re-assured about.
Whatever you say is only YOUR opinion, and as such demonstrate your total lack of maturity and thought when you say such rubbish as the "unraveling of the right is getting ugly".
Clearly another of your ignorant, subjective and bias OPINIONS.
Therefore given that it is merely one of YOUR opinions, we can rest happily in the knowledge your opinions are, as usual, MOOT!
So it would seem that again, if you cannot provide us with evidence if what you say, it must be merely your opinion.
I, at least happily give my sources or reasoning if challenged.
If you keep this up, you will become irrelevant and only end up with your followers as respondents.
But you should be lucky/grateful to have anyone taking you seriously, at all.

Hi SteeleRedux,

"So you can see the institute has been a perennial favourite for conspiracy theorists and so it is perfectly true to form for the fruit loops to trot it out over the Port Arthur massacre."

The Wikipedia page you linked shows that they've jumped on the bandwagon of a few 'conspiracy theories'.
I wouldn't like to get into all of them though.

Sometimes I think the term 'conspiracy theory' is just a term placed in inverted commas around certain topics so regular people won't look any further for fear of being ridiculed by their peers.

Some conspiracy theories I think may hold merit, whilst others are just ridiculous.
I can tell you, I'm one of the people who thinks the world is round.
And I think it's probably extremely unlikely that they faked the moon landing.

My questions so to speak regarding Port Arthur weren't based upon any particular 'conspiracy theory' as much as it was based on the thoughts and opinions of the local townspeople who attended some kind of community information night regarding the massacre at their local town hall.
- That's how the documentary was laid out.

"Isn't it strange how you are now one of the more reasoned types from your side of the fence on this forum. The unraveling of the right is getting ugly."

Well I think you're probably having a dig at ALTRAV, rather than giving me a thumbs up, but I'm sure you know that I don't support the right unconditionally.
I try to argue issues own their own merits, it's just that I tend to identify with a more conservative approach to things than I do with those pushing progressive agendas who don't really consider where these agendas not individually but as a whole are taking us.

I wouldn't be so foolish as to suggest the Royals did it.
Princess Diana on the other hand, well who knows, not me.

AC, I think we need to take stock.
Of course the Royals DIDN'T DO ANYTHING!
One very plausible scenario is, because "City of London" is controlled by a certain group, they more than likely knew about it before hand, as they are in the loop, possibly?
The same goes for Bush knowing before hand about 9/11.
Now of course these are ALL theories.
OR ARE THEY?
The only way we will EVER know is when one of the elite or insiders is on their death bed and feels compelled to relieve his conscience, or when documents and info become available through FOA release dates.
But as we have found out already, by then, no one cares and no one gets punished or hung for the crimes.
The idea is to be mature, pragmatic and objective enough to sift through the absolute mountain of conflicting information and forming a conclusion which is not based on emotion, ideologies or personalities.
And definitely do not form an opinion based on the stories that fit your thinking or comfort level, which seems to describe a large number of those on the left.

Dear Armchair Critic,

Actually i wasn't thinking of ALTRAV when making the comment, I don't bother reading his stuff anymore and haven't for a while. It was more the Hasbeens and Shadow Ministers who have swallowed the playbook.

There are even Liberal senators protesting the use of right-wing in the threat assessments from ASIO.

"Liberal senator tells Asio chief his use of term ‘rightwing’ can offend conservatives"
http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/mar/02/liberal-senator-tells-asio-chief-his-use-of-term-rightwing-can-offend-conservatives

What a bunch of craven PC snowflakes they really are.

AC, unlike SR, you display a certain amount of maturity and pragmatism, and not prone to emotional, subjective, ideological dogma or beliefs.
The fact that SR admits he doesn't read me anymore, demonstrates a petulant, childlike and emotional, irrational mindset.
So it is with some satisfaction that another of the irrelevant club abstains from commenting leaving more room for everyone else, and open for a more mature and engaging discussion/debate.

Hasbeen,
There's no need to resort to "pretend make work" jobs - there's no shortage of things that we'd benefit from having done, that are currently not getting done due to lack of funding.

But creating the conditions & environment that enables private business to create jobs was a large part of what I meant.
The government running industry was not.

______________________________________________________________________________________________

ALTRAV,
It's a pity you don't want to continue this discussion. But there are a few points you should consider even if you don't want to discuss them:

• When productivity improves, why should workers be excluded from the benefit of that?

• You seem to have very different standards of success and failure than most people do. Is there any objectivity to them?

• Just because you're blind to the difference doesn't mean actions and circumstances are the same.