Following on from the Seven/Eleven wage theft scandal, one of Australia's largest and most profitable companies 'Woolworths' has admitted that over the past 10 years it has stolen $300 million in wages from its employees across the range of it retail operations. How prevalent is wage theft, in particular in the service/retail industries. Businesses which employ child labour, migrants, students, casuals, part timers, unskilled workers, businesses where union representation is low or non existent, businesses where workers have little knowledge of their rights. Is wage theft an accident, or is it a business prerogative to steal from often the lowest paid of workers?

Dear Paul,

It appears that in Australia wage theft is the norm not
the exception where those in control exploit the
vulnerable and the uninformed. That to my memory has existed
for a while and it is the government's responsibility to
control. But I suspect that some politicians sanction
such behavior in the interests of getting political donations.
The water rights of the recent news on the Murray-Darling
and other water management seems to demonstrate this.
As does the sale of land to China.

It appears that Woolworths have been underpaying their
employees over the past ten years while their executives
were getting big bonuses. And Woolworths is not the only
big company, others have also been mentioned. By the way
Woolworths is as we know, an American company. What about
Macdonalds, Hungry Jacks, et al? Is wage theft an American
blight?

Yes and it seems creating a lower income group is seen as ok by our current government
Every unpaid dollar is one not being spent and the economy suffers
We need a change in direction, put those who thieve wages in prison

No body here could possibly know whether it is or not.

It is German and it is spam, one of its offers is a green card for work in America, no business needing to post such things is worth trusting

Dear Belly,

You're right - it is spam and should be deleted.

A touch of irony on this topic. I was in my local 'Woolies' one avo a few weeks back. At the front of the store were 3 uniformed coppers, maybe the SWAT team. The cops had two teenage school girls, about 14 or 15 years old, bailed up for all to see, giving them the third degree. The girls were getting the usual stares from shoppers. One copper was holding a bag of what looked like 'Mars Bars' or some such thing, must have been the evidence! Obviously the pair had been caught knocking off a $2 pack of chocs. One of the girls was having a sob, the coppers were satisfying 'Woolies' that a pair of harden crims were being delt with at great taxpayer expense.

Okay, the girls should not have been shop lifting, but were they delt with in an appropriate manner? I think not.

Paul cops may have been using the frighten them so they never do it again thing
But increasingly some are letting their ego run away with them
No doubt exists some/a few do more damage than Roger Rogerson to the police name

Hi Belly,

Watching an interview with a union representative on this subject. One problem is that the power of unions to check the "wages book" of employers. Once upon a time the union had the power to check any employer after giving reasonable notice, that applied across the board both to union and non union businesses. The employers had that provision removed, I wonder why, so today unions can only check the wages of a union member only who so requests. That of course makes for wholesale (and retail) rorting of the system, and of course later retribution by the employer on the employee.

Back in the day when I was involved in workers affairs (union), you'll like this one. The large company I worked for wanted to take on a new engineering supplier, worth a lot to the new bloke. The deal was such people had to be compliant with the award as a minimum etc. Soon got wind that this mob were non compliant, and had some written arrangement with their workers, (we had a copy of this so called agreement). This mob had removed holiday loading, picnic day, meal allowance etc etc in return for a flat $20/week, plus their so called bonus system, which was structured in such a way, employees got nothing, or an maybe extra $20/month at best, if the boss made an extra million or so.

On of the more draconian provisions was whats called "you fook it, you fix it!" In other words if for some reason a job is stuffed up, then the employee has to fix it at his cost in his time, amazing, in theory it could cost the worker a million dollars.

In discussion with these renegades, firstly they did not want to recognise the rights of the union, (they only had a couple of members employed). The boss there even made the claim he was the best person to look after his workers! Told his "agreement" was totally illegal he claimed some how, the award (law) did not apply to him, and he believed it.

The media never kicks up a fuss when employees are overpaid; they don't even report it.

The usual suspects here - the private enterprise-hating Marxists - are not just hateful, but plain stupid if they think Woolworths deliberately underpaid workers.

Mistakes by lowly pay clerks etc are common.

Leave your suspicious, anti-capitalist hatred for the likes of slippery franchises like 7 Eleven that deliberately faked timesheets and used other such methods to underpay workers. That was deliberate fraud, deserving of criminal sanctions.

Woolworths employees will be compensated, and more; and the dimwits responsible will he dealt with. And, it is unlikely to ever happen again.

Wow. My husband and some family members 0wn their
own businesses and are in private business.
Imagine what they would think if they only
knew that I'm a "private business hating Marxist."
Gee whiz. BTW - what's a Marxist?

cont'd ...

And the staff and media have it all wrong about
Woolworths?

Good to know. Could we have some evidence of that
please?

INSANITY can be seen in every word some post
Paul yes know of a bloke who got workers to return to work one week early
While on annual leave, without pay
Some rural bosses own their workers
Rent the house they live in and even lend more than they can repay
Conservatives must stop wage theft and in an interview on ABC TV claim they are going to

Foxy, don't you know what a Marxist is? Its people who love Groucho Marx. You do remember Groucho Marx don't you, he was ALMOST as funny as ttbn.

Hey, ttbn how about some big time examples of systemic over payment of employees!

If you want to know of businesses totally driven by the bottom line, and the pressure applied to "managers" to boost profits, try the big supermarket chains. At Woolworths this tip of the iceberg $300 million is not a bit of a mistake by lowly pay clerks, this was company policy. Why are Woolies fessing up now? They don't want any kind of impartial forensic investigation into something that could cost them billions. Where are Coles and the other big retailers on this.

A bloke took a job offsiding on a delivery truck for a large electrical and home goods retailer, well known to all. Supposedly the truck was operated by a "sub contractor". The blokes pay was $100/day cash in hand, hours 7am-7pm, being at call, lunch when you stop sometime. However they got to keep any old TV's they took away for customers, so the bloke in the store told him. I suppose they could put them on the 5 year interest free plan.

Dear Paul,

I love shopping at Big W. I get all of my
Birthday presents and Christmas presents for
the grand-kids there at a fraction of the cost
elsewhere - especially Lego sets and the Marvel
Superheroes series. Great stuff. Now I know why
things are cheaper there.

As for Marxists? Of course I know Groucho.
But I thought a Marxist was someone who got top
marks in everything. You learn something new on the
forum all the time (smile).

Paul/Foxy finally after all these years started online shopping
This last week and a bit, gee it worked well, most delivered in letter box, one a 100 meter walk to servo/PO
Looking for a Marxist santa to put up a tree in front year
Should look ok alongside the southern cross lest we forget army, and boxing roo there to welcome my visitors
Brother [best mate too] votes Liberal , and knows nothing about politics just thinks he does
Many do not read some posts, including mine, maybe we should stop replieing to our nasty niggler?

then again we have employee theft estimated to be about 2.7 billion a year. Of course those who hate successful companies would never mention it. Never heard abc reporting on it or any of the other lying liberal media.

Runner you are not quite ok are you?
The rabbid extreme Christianity that in truth is harming that faith
Willingness to overlook very huge very real employer theft but highlight some thing you have given no evidence for

Hi Belly

not making excuses for anyone. Woolworths should pay up. Just adding some balance.

https://www.smartcompany.com.au/marketing/sales/big-steal-fraud-mistakes-shoplifting-and-employee-theft-cost-australian-retailers-2-7-billion-a-year/

truth is that honesty and truth is decreasing in our society from all.

A common argument from the far right extreme is to point to some other evil, and assume that justifies the evil they condone. Like some kind of counterbalance, we have it here from the hypocritical cult follower, wage theft is negated by unsubstantiated claims of employee theft. The Christian Bible states; "You shall not steal", but for the fanatical extreme element he applies a tit for tat interpretation, "You steal from me I steal from you", a bit like an eye for an eye. Right runner!

'A common argument from the far right extreme is to point to some other evil, and assume that justifies the evil they condone. Like some kind of counterbalance, we have it here from the hypocritical cult follower, '

you really are a joke Paul. I thought you might of been one of those spitting on workers in Melbourne. Was it only your mates who got charged for their disgusting behaviour.

btw the posts on celebrating Cook's landing does exactly what you accuse me of. Then again I would not expect someone holding such hateful ideology to have any idea of truth.

Hi Paul1405,
Not only should employees get the money owed to them by Woolies,
Every single Woolies employee who paid money into the Shop, Distributive and Allied Union;
Should sue THEM for every single dollar paid as well.
If a union can't even check that employees pay is correct they don't deserve one dollar.
This clearly proves unions are self serving and not working in an employees best interests.

AC, read my post about union access to the "wage book" of employers. The right of the union to scrutinise wage payments was limited by Fair Work some years back at the behest of employers. I wonder why!

"This clearly proves unions are self serving and not working in an employees best interests."

BTW, in my union days the SDA, although a large union, was seen as gutless wonders by many.

'Cult Follower', Smart Company, a mouth piece for employers, no evidence, no accounts of prosecutions, just fictitious crap some Yank thought up while sitting on the you know what. Provide evidence of the claimed $2.7 billion? I'll agree the big supermarkets might lose the occasional bag of 'Minties', or the odd stale cream bun to a hungry employee, can't deny that, but $2.7 billion worth, pull the other leg.

First to the spam generator, your business if it needs such low acts is not worth dealing with
Runner give it a miss please
My recent thread about why newcomers do not stay should relook at posters like you
Can it be this site largely, has become home for one extreme side of politics
It sure looks like it
Does that extremism driven group, require only their thoughts be given air
Is it needed that free speech, from views other than yours/theirs be muffled
A fair day's pay for a fair day's work, surely not evil?
Hawke Keating brought about a stalling of wage increases, to stabilize and build our economy
Much true great reform followed, we stand the great country we are because they opened up our banks and country to world trade
I have, time and again, sat with bosses found to have under paid their workers, and both deliberately and by mistake
Near every time, working out [small businesses do not have cash to spare] a way to repay it and trade on
However have seen the deliberate strip the business and close the doors only to open debt free under another name the next week
Fairness and honesty is not too much for either side to ask for

"Can it be this site largely, has become home for one extreme side of politics."
If that's true, then it's because our opinions are censored almost everywhere else.

AC,

Glad you mentioned the unions. They were certainly asleep at the wheel on this one.

That spam is actually an invitation to get involved in online crime
AC no doubt, but for some not near all, the site would improve with some moderation

Wesfarmers workers have been underpaid millions. The company blames 'inadvertent errors' for the massive underpayments.

ttbn again displaying your anti union ignorance; "Glad you mentioned the unions. They were certainly asleep at the wheel on this one."

The right of unions to investigate the pay practices of businesses was removed by Fair Work on the insistence of big business. Of course they don't want scrutiny of their "wage book" it would show the extent of the rip-off, opening a can of worms. Where could you start if you really wanted investigate employers ripping off workers? Investigate all retailers, service businesses, all those take-away, markets, the GST avoiding cash in hand shonks, etc etc.

ttbn, I don't expect you would know anything about unions, never being a member. You would be the type to take the benefits as scab labour, but not willing to join up and pay the dues. Plenty like you out there!

Paul,

You are getting too far out of control to bother with, but I not going to let you get away with calling me ignorant, when you follow up your self with the totally ignorant statement that I have never been a union member. I have been a union member; indeed, I was an elected rep at one stage.

Still, that won't any difference to a mouth-almighty ignoramus like you, will it?

The worse example of wage theft in Oz is the money bureaucrats take home every fortnight for attending their place of "WORK", but never doing anything useful while there.

Hey Paul1405,

"The right of the union to scrutinise wage payments was limited by Fair Work some years back at the behest of employers. I wonder why!"

I'd assume if your were large company like Woolies or Bunnings it might be costly and inconvenient for a union to have unfettered access to the companies up-to-date employee payroll.
Might also be a little bit intrusive to also have access to the names of all staff even ones who aren't in the union.

I suppose it also comes down to the 'manslaughter v's murder thing';
'incompetence / accidental v's actual intent'.

The question there is whether or not there was either actual intent to rort the employees, or intent to try to cover said rorting up.

In any case when I see stuff like this it just emphasises poor policies all around.
If you try to point the finger at one person they'll probably just point the finger at someone else, and you'll have a room full of idiots all pointing at each other saying 'it wasn't my fault'.

It's 'incompetence'.
Eventually someone's gotta say enough is enough and actually create a simple foolproof policy that works for everyone.

I don't see why it need be so hard to create some kind of foolproof system that ensures people are paid fairly, if that is what is actually wanted.

BTW, I worked for Coles pushing trolleys, packing groceries and also checkouts in my first job and was a SDA union member;

Hey Belly,
"That spam is actually an invitation to get involved in online crime
AC no doubt, but for some not near all, the site would improve with some moderation."

I already reported the spam yesterday.
I'll show you something.

First, go here
http://who.is

Then type in his domain details which will bring you to this page.
http://who.is/whois/buyeurodocumentsonline.com

What you'll see there, firstly under 'Registrar Data' is that the owner of the site has 'privacy' enabled.
That's the reason most of the information about the site owner is redacted.

But what we can also see is that under Name Server;
The server hosting the site firstly is 'cloudflare', and it also shows the servers IP address.

http://www.whoishostingthis.com/blog/2011/03/24/nameservers-important/

Now, what you need to know is that it's one thing to post this spam crap from your own server, but another thing entirely to do it from a paid hosting service.

Legitimate hosting companies won't want to be associated with hosting websites that are either doing or promoting illegal activities.

So next we go here:
http://www.cloudflare.com/abuse/form

Now I already did this yesterday, but I can tell you that it won't allow you to submit the form without checking that the URL your complaining about in the 'infringing URL' is one of their sites hosted.

Moral to the story is I already notified cloudflare that one of their hosted sites is being spamed onto our forum and promoting criminal activity.
There's no guarantee they will warn him or block his site, but they might contact him and warn him if what he's doing is against their own policy.

I probably shouldn't have done so myself but instead emailed our site owner and let him know what I thought he should do.

That's pretty much all you can do, but you don't want to be too malicious, as he could also act maliciously against the forum.

ttbn, were you a member of the Credit Union. I note your throwaway line... "I have been a union member; indeed, I was an elected rep at one stage." Of course you were, a regular Norm Gallagher!

Saying you are showing your ignorance is not name calling, but referring to someone as a mouth-almighty ignoramus certainly is, but I'll take that as a complement coming from you.

AC, I have only moderate respect for the soft right wing union the SDA, could do a lot more for members than give them the 'Bonus Book' of special offers, you know, the discounted movie tickets etc. Back in the day that was a joke in Union circles, the Shop Union wont save your job, but they'll give you a half priced ticket to the 'flicks' to watch John Wayne in action if you join up. I suppose they are not as bad as all that, but I would like them to be a bit more pro active, particularly for junior members. Also find some of these right wing union officials are a bit too cosy with employers at times, a bit dismissive of members concerns, not like the good old CFMEU, for me it was Laurie Carmichael and the AMWSU. I never had much to do with the retail union, more to contend with Belly's AWU and the ETU. We always found those two hard to get on side in disputes, but they would eventually come around. The BLF (CFMEU) they were even too much for us radicals, Like Laurie Carmichael, John Halfpenny was a decent Commo, as to was Jack Mundey from the NSW branch of the BLF, but Victoria's BLF head Big Norm Gallagher, well, no one in NSW could tolerate the grub, always wanting to stick his nose in where it was not wanted. BTW, I have mellowed quite a bit since those days.

AC mate frankly you are far out in front of me with PC skills GY has a life and will [if he has not yet] remove that I too marked it and reported
Paul, let's face it I understand AWU, stands for [in some minds] Australia's Weakest Union
Some bosses came to us for protection from the thugs and mugs
More pleasing their members outside cities did too
I am at war, with my own party's very left,[no huge number] who want the policy that keeps us in opposition until we die
Wage theft is not defensible to real people

Hey Paul1405,
When I said I was in the SDA in my first job at Coles, I wasn't in any way trying to get you to show the union respect.
Everyone had to be in the union, we had no choice.
I worked at Coles from age 15 for maybe about 2 years until after I saved and bought my first car, then I delivered pizzas for Silvio's as a second job, and eventually left Coles and went on to do factory work.

I forgot all about the cheap movie tickets etc that union membership gave an entitlement to.
I remember the days working with the checkout girls fondly.
It was almost like one big family, and a good first job.

ACC Paul not everything a union does is wrong
While on a worksite [construction] a man got a call his wife was badly hurt
She was near death in a car accident
She was very ill for a long time
I started a fund to help, kicked it off with my own football memorabilia
Boss too helped and every official in my branch kicked in 200 dollars,we bought a fridge to raffle
Ended with a charity day attended by football heros, we got very near forty thousand dollars
And a member for life
He was not my member
Left the thugs and mugs on returning to work joined us

Hi AC,

I remember in my latter days of school, doing a couple of nights a week as a shelf stacker at a local supermarket (they closed at 5.30pm in them days), 3 mates and me doing 4 hours. We were "supervised" by a pimply faced elderly Assistant Store Manager, probely aged about 20, with a young check-out-chick, who stayed back unofficially. They spent most the night in the back office with the door closed. Much laughter and giggling, along with a bit of grunting from time to time (the walls were thin) emanated from the office throughout the night. We had to join the union, at 50c week. Me thinks the ASM was making with his own union.

Well, the mate Dave the Dasher, being an enterprising young chap was not adverse to doing a bit of stock adjustment himself in between stacking the 'Tiny Taters' and 'Baby Beets' in the kiddies aisle, reckons he got the sack for that mistake, but me thinks it was due to his unauthorised stock adjustment activities that got him the bullet!

Here’s one the anti-Woolworths ranters won’t object to given their extreme Left/Marxist politics.

We taxpayers have forked out $30 million so that Woolworths can install ‘energy-efficient’ lighting and refrigeration in supermarkets. This and the $1 billion that Morrison has just handed over to private companies for more experiments with costly, unreliable energy is clear evidence that the gap between the ALP and the NLP is narrowing fast.

We are steadily inching towards a China-style one party dictatorship.

Hey ttbn,

"We taxpayers have forked out $30 million so that Woolworths can install ‘energy-efficient’ lighting and refrigeration in supermarkets. This and the $1 billion that Morrison has just handed over to private companies for more experiments with costly, unreliable energy is clear evidence that the gap between the ALP and the NLP is narrowing fast."

I think they more or less have to as part of previously agreed to 'international commitments'.

These international commitments include 'targets';
So both side of politics inevitably has to jump through the same hoops to meet them.
It doesn't matter which side we choose all roads lead to Rome.
I see it as international democracy being imposed upon nation states.

Do we need evidence of systemic wage theft in Australia, its rife!

The American fat cat franchise mob 'Subway' have been caught out ripping off workers.

167 current and former 'Subway' employees were found to have been underpaid following investigations into 22 Subway franchisees in NSW, Queensland and Victoria.

The Fair Work Ombudsman found 18 of 22, that's over 89%, of 'Subway' franchisees were breaching workplace laws by failing to pay minimum wages, casual loadings, holiday and overtime rates, or not keeping proper employment records or issuing proper payslips.

"A franchisee who ran two Subway outlets in Sydney was fined $65,438 after underpaying one Chinese worker more than $16,000, while inspectors issued seven compliance notices, nine formal cautions and nine on-the-spot fines for record keeping and payslip breaches."

This criminal behaviour might go down well in Alabama USA, but its not what Australians will tolerate. Jail sentences are necessary if we are going to stop rampant theft of wages from some of the lowest paid workers in the country!

Multiculturalism + Mass Immigration = Wage Theft. It's that simple.

Someone should do a freedom of information request and find out ALL the companies caught stealing from employees and then release the whole list to the public.

This marxist leninist fool [of course I am not] holds very true concerns we are headed for a lower class worker future
Yes wage theft is endemic
And yes the use of underpaid often illegal migrant workers is part of that, in fact they suffer from wage theft too
Any honest, look at America, its low income wage earners, will reinforce my view some care more about powering the economy, than wage justice

I think that what needs to be noted is that many of the cases of "wage theft" such as with Woolies is due to cosy deals signed off with the unions where the businesses could pay below award wages in return for automatically signing up employees deducting union dues from their salaries etc.

SM yes ok my union, BILL SHORTEN did some infamous deals, in no way impacting on ANY of the current thefts
Would you consider this, I DEMANDED and got, the removal of a Vs President of the QLD AWU?
Grieve still I lacked the steam to try the same with Bill
I was wrong

"businesses could pay below award wages " what rubbish, one of the important tests of an enterprise agreement is it must not be in breach of the award before it can be registered.
Someone who will take the benefits that unions obtain for ALL workers, even the scabs, would not have a clue about industrial matters.

"automatically signing up employees deducting union dues from their salaries etc." what rubbish, It is illegal in Australia for an employer to make automatic deductions from an employees pay without the employees consent, that includes union fees. The only automatic deductions without the employees consent an employer is legally bound to make are child support payments ordered by the Department of Human Services, government decreed tax charges, and any deduction decreed by a court of law. This bloke is a real tosser when it comes to industrial matters.

Hi Belly, I recall my union days, when we had those "staff" wombats who pranced around in their suits, acting like they had a broomstick stuck up their backside, deriding the union at every opportunity, never lowering themselves to join of course. When the company went for general redundancies, and were paying the union members as per the agreement ie 4 weeks for each year etc. The company was paying the broomstick boys as per the award ie four fifths of FA. all of a sudden these mugs wanted to join the union, our reaction...tough luck mugs.

The under-performing overpaid bureaucrats are the real wages thieves ! They're literally stealing our tax Dollars & no authority's there to bail them up !

But Indy, you're an Aged Pensioner, pay no tax, what you pay in GST is returned through welfare payments. Why are you latching yourself onto us taxpayers coat tails?

"It is illegal in Australia for an employer to make automatic deductions from an employees pay without the employees consent.."

This guy is a complete tosser primarily for his dimwitted incomprehension as to what was written and his half arsed response.

I never said that there was no legal consent, but for example when your employment contract comes with a union membership application form and a tick box for consent to deduct fees there is more than a hint of duress.

paul1405,
Like many other pensioners I have already forked out the money that's now returned to me as a pension, have you ? Something tells me, not !

A tough industrial bloke like you Shadow, would tell them to stick their union membership where the sun don't shine, and take em' on.

Show us a registered industrial agreement that has a clause requiring consent be given to have union fees automatically deducted from wages.
As you have absolutely no experience with industrial matters its no wonder you have to resort to making up porkies. The union rep is the one who handles union application forms, not the employer. Give us an example of what you claim. Even the CFMMEU does it that way, my son-in-law is a member.

Maybe you are getting confused with your application to join the credit union.

Indy, any tax you paid in the past was spent in the past by government. Nothing was put away so a pension could be paid to you today. Your next weeks pension comes out of this weeks tax on others, like me.

next weeks pension comes out of this weeks tax on others, like me.
Paul1405,
Yep, just as your benefits are coming from others also. With blue collar workers it's a user pays system whereas with bureaucrats it's a taxpayers pay system !
Paying tax on everything for 52 years is way more than getting a pension & pay tax on that too for 20 years !

Paul,

You have the uncanny propensity to submit posts that make you look retarded. Do you actually read what I write? Where did I ever claim that the union deductions were in the registered industrial agreement? Note that the back handers to the unions were also not in the agreement.

"The Royal Commission into Trade Union Governance and Corruption has found that Cleanevent Australia Pty Ltd paid the Australian Workers Union (AWU) up to $25,000 per year in a deal that traded off the penalty rates of cleaners to save the company $2 million.

The 28 May article in SMH by Anna Patty and Nick Toscano also stated that Victorian state Labor MP Cesar Melhem was AWU state secretary at the time and was involved in the Cleanevent negotiations.

The Royal Commission heard that Cleanevent Australia described the $25,000 payments as ‘membership fees’ to the Victorian branch of the AWU.

‘Counsel assisting Jeremy Stoljar said Cleanevent supplied lists of names of cleaners to the AWU, without the knowledge of the cleaners and despite some of them already being members who were paying union dues,’ stated SMH.

“In some cases these persons were then entered upon the membership roll of the AWU (Vic), but these persons knew nothing of any of this,” Stoljar said."

SM, are you simply retarded yourself, or do you have a total lack of knowledge of industrial matters. What involvement have you had in industrial affairs, other than sticking your hand out to get the benefits unions obtain for workers, without putting in yourself.

The anti worker conservative government picked a stooge to front a political witch-hunt into unions. How many charges have arisen from that attempt at muck racking?

Paul,

I have worked in heavy industry for more than 3 decades in a managerial position including some negotiating with unions and my wife has an HR background including being an HR consultant for a few years. So I probably know at least as much as you.

And your answer to clear cut collusion in wage theft by the unions is to cry "fake news" in spite of the clear evidence to the contrary. A tad too much wacky weed I suspect.