As an international question, what does it mean to love your neighbor? Should you love a neighboring country. Would it mean more trade? An active involvement in their country. (Like trying to help build infrastructure, curbing corruption, finding justice, or protecting through your military)? Does it mean open borders? Or does it mean letting them have their own autonomy and not trying to build a one world government in your image.

Different countries would have different needs, and Australia is not rich enough to provide entirely for her neighbors anyway, so perhaps the question should be rephrased. What is within your means and your willingness to do. Or should you do anything for a foreign country anyways. Live and let live is a kind way of saying you won't get involved. Is that better then to love your neighbor? Can you love a country that poses a greater influence on your own. Possibly a danger? (Chinese immigration comes to mind, as well as Muslim immigrants. Both topics debated fiercely in the past.)

'Love thy neighbour' is a quick Christian slogan that is about as practical eating soup with a fork. As Christianity declines, the slogans become meaningless anyway; 'and, neighbours vary from OK to obnoxious and downright dangerous. Don't expect to be loved back.

Nice to have a new subject, though. I was beginning to think that our two censorious and nagging posters had put everyone off raising new topics for fear of being lectured for their cheek to have an opinion.

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

First, "Love thy neighbour" (Hebrew: "Ve-ahavta Le-re-A-cha Camocha") suffers from translation problems: the word "Re-A" (within "Le-re-A-cha") roughly means "someone you spend time with" (usually a friend or a lover), rather than 'neighbour'. Though there is no perfect translation, I will hence use the English word "fellow".

Second, the commandment is on individuals and towards fellow individuals, rather than on nations towards other nations. Nobody is commanded to love a country - theirs or others'.

The point in "Love thy fellow AS THYSELF" is to love your fellow, so that you can realise that s/he is just like you, then ultimately that they are not different from you at all as you both are joined in God. When you truly love another, you wouldn't deny them any help you can give, nor would you view this as sacrifice, just as your right hand helps your left hand (and vice-versa) whenever needed without perceiving it as sacrifice!

As for open borders, there is a different instruction in the bible: "The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine, for ye are strangers and sojourners with me" [Leviticus 25:23]. In other words, as we all are God's guests in His land, we have no right to deny access to His other guests!

I think it a pillar of civilisation, as explained by Peter van Uhm in his Ted talk. Nations that do not follow this dictum offer a very degraded existence in comparison. We have so much to thank for our Judeo-Christian heritage. It is a shame that so many just want to pick out the faults.

Could it be that the faults are glaringly contradictory....one could say that the obvious interpretation is 'respect your neighbour'..... given that he/she too is the sum total of his/her experiences and can do no other until he/she is provided with an alternative to consider.
Those who claim to have the answers are the smallest minds and as is said, the smaller the mind the greater the intransigence.
Given the appropriate circumstances...all things are possible

Dear NNS,

Thank You for this discussion. "Love your neighbour?"
What does it mean exactly? I guess it means different
things to different people. To me I take it to mean -
to treat others as I want to be treated.

Many of us have the tendency to moralize, to say endless things to
others about how they should clean up their houses.
Surely, we must clean up ours. The days are long gone when
we had the genuine moral authority from which to preach to
others. Let us regain that ground, take a fearless moral
inventory, do the work on ourselves that we still need to do.
And perhaps in this way - we can build a better world for us all.

Talking about love, love is love, and the Left's professed love of all sorts: diversity in everything, including culture, sexual practices, religion etc, a school in Birmingham, UK, has just stopped teaching LGBT tripe because 80% of its students have been withdrawn in protest.

The head teacher, who has received honours from the Queen for teaching, introduced his ratty course in a school which is 98% Muslim. How about that! Is he real? Hasn't he, himself, learned anything from running a school whose children and parents are 98% Muslim?

No wonder Britain is no longer a democracy that cannot, or does not want to regain its sovereignty. Lal la land doesn't begin to describe the place.

Dear God,

Please remove from my mind the tendency to judge.

Please remove from my mind the tendency to hate.

Please remove from my mind the tendency to blame.

Please reveal to me, Lord, a way to stand in my power,
through love instead of fear, and through peace instead
of violence.

May I hear not the voice for anger, but only the voice
for love.

And teach me, dear Lord, how not to hate those who hate
me.

Transform all darkness into light, dear God,
and use my mind as an instrument of Your harmlessness.

I surrender to You my thoughts of violence.

Take these thoughts, Lord, and wash them clean.

Thank You very much.

Amen.

I tend to think much like Yuyutsu on this. It was a command by Jesus about how we as individuals treat people we run into, not how much foreign aid is given out. In saying that I believe Foreign aid is a good thing if spent well. The other obvious thing is that in general the West have treated neighbours much much better than those who never adopted a Judea Christian ethic. It is obvious by the hoards that want to immigrate here that we treat strangers much better than most. Socialist and Islamic nations genrally treat outsiders very badly.

'Hordes', Runner :)

I enjoy the Good Samaritan parable too - that one helps someone else who is NOT of one's own group, that one puts oneself at cost or danger to help a fellow-human being.

Conversely but in the same spirit, some people lay down their lives for others in order to defeat a vile common enemy, as the Kurds have been doing for some years in relation to ISIS. How many Kurds have been killed fighting ISIS ? I've seen a figure of ten thousand. How many Americans have been killed in Syria fighting ISIS, or otherwise deceased ? Eight.

Who protected the Yazidis ? The Kurds. Who protected the Mandeans ? The Kurds ? Who betrayed the Kurds ? That bit of filth, trump.

I remember that young Australian bloke who went to fight with the Kurds and was killed. A hero, a genuine Good Samaritan. I don't think he was even paid, certainly not by the US. To that bit of filth trump, that would have been the key motivation: to that bit of filth, the world is a slut that you can buy any time you like.

'Love thy neighbour' and the good Samaritan parable, shouldn't ever be put in the same paragraph as that slime, with his 'grab them by the pussy', 'buy whoever you like' philosophy. I look forward to links being uncovered between that turd and Jeffrey Epstein.

Joe

.

I saw an interesting street message doing my footing this morning that somebody painted on the footpath on the way up the hill to the Sacré Coeur in Montmartre. I thought I should share it with you - at least, my (rather poor) English version of it :

The refugees
observe from their boats
people relaying the baton of inhumanity
from country to country
as they seek refuge
(signed: The State of the Beggars)

.

Dear Banjo,

Thank You for that. So sad.

Here's another piece of graffiti - Australian
style:

Roses are red
Violets are blue
My country's for me
And not for you
But if by chance
You'll take my place
I'll take my fist
And smash your face.

Again - sad.

"in general the West have treated neighbours much much better than those who never adopted a Judea Christian ethic."

runner as a hypocritical Christian do you know how unreal that statement is.

WWI in the name of their god the good Christians annihilated 20 million of their own. WWII 60 million etc etc. When it comes to being peace loving in general you cannot beat the Christian's. Those neighbours will love us like we love them, otherwise we'll beat the crap out of em'.

rewriting history again Paul. I take it you make it up as you go along as long as it fits your Green hating narrative.

To Yuyutsu and Runner.

I agree with you two that the teaching was given to love people, not countries. However how many people do you need to have compassion on before you have compassion on their home country. Think of commercials for starving children in Africa or in India. Those charity drives made into 30 second clips have been going on for years. And who doesn't feel compassion for those in the video who look malnourished and starved. At some point the question could be asked: "why are we still seeing these images from the same place? Why hasn't the country these are from gotten their act together to help these starving populations?"

It's not a far reach to suggest to love a foreign nation and have compassion on them. We do it for communities who are poor, have gang issues, are homeless, or have health issues. Some even going as far as having a program that is funded to fix the issue. Whether it's city funded through taxes to get rid or gangs or drugs in a city, or it's church sponsored to serve the homeless. Many acts of love for another are not just acted on an individual level, but also towards a community. Some even go as far as a love for their country. Choosing a profession that is aimed at serving the country they love and making it a better place. Teachers, police, and joining the military come to mind, for serving the needs of the country or the people of your home.

Just go one step more then that. What would it mean to love a neighboring country? Pick any country you might have compassion on if you need an example for the question.

(Continued)

(Continued)

Yuyutsu. The debates around immigrants coming is likely what sparked this topic the most. It is a question of what to do for those fleeing their homes, countered with the reality of what it does back home to have no restraint on the borders. Being open to a fleeing population to come and live with you is an act of love on a national level. The government makes that choice, regardless if it is agreed on by everyone affected by it. However this is not the only way to love a neighboring people. Another thought is what can be done for that country, so these people don't have to give up everything and flee from it. If anything could be done at all.

Runner. Financial aid is another option. Though I have less trust in blanket causes asking for money. Some countries the corruption keeps the majority of any aid out of the grasp of the people. Other countries the aid isn't fretted through government agents first and then you can continue on the idea of, "if it's a worthy cause." Nonetheless, the only real way to help is going to cost money no matter how it's looked at. As for the bad neighbors, I think of that like I think of a compassionate person volunteering at a prison. Or a person who used to be a drunk, and now they try to reach others to not throw away their lives for another drink. It's surprising what people do for some of the worse neighbors out there. Of course they act differently trying to help a worse person then you would to help a kind person. Having precaution towards venom filled countries would be as needed as it is in someone trying to reach prison inmates

To ttbn.

If it makes the topic easier to swallow. Then consider it in nonchristian terms. Humanitarian causes instead of love your neighbor. What would it look like to take on another country either as a humanitarian seeking to help, or as more then just an ally country, but also a friend. After all, different countries don't have to be in need to love them. For example, celebrating one of the royal's marriages or their children seems to come and go even in countries that aren't British.

If love is too strong a word. Then what would it mean to be a friend to a neighboring country. In that context look at the opening post one more time. Things people do that try to be beneficial but might be harmful come to mind. Such as the social movements for open borders or global warming as an international push to force other countries to lose their autonomy and accept the rules handed to them. Immigration, trade, finical aid, military aid; all of those can be posed in secular terms of being humanitarian causes instead of the more known phrase "love your neighbor."

There are many bleeding hearts out there that want to heal a broken world. I know I'm one of them, but even if I wasn't, the phenomenon would still be there from a concerned population of the nation. Bleeding hearts aren't going away. So why not take on the issues they so deeply want to fix. Say something like "nope, that cause is worthless, try this instead." Or even "that's a real cause, but it needs to be handled smart, not with your emotions."

"WW in the name of their god the good Christians annihilated 20 million of their own. WWII 60 million etc etc. When it comes to being peace loving in general you cannot beat the Christian's."

What a load of of ignorant BS. Neither world war had a damn thing to do with religion. Both wars were fought for freedom and democracy on our part, and territory and control on the enemy's part. The last time Christians fought a war as Christians was as Crusaders against Islam.

In the second world war, one side (ideology really)- not Christian by any stretch of the imagination - decided to try wiping out Jews, not from a religious point of view, but by dint of the fact that the elite Jews were much smarter than they were. Most Jews were like the rest of us: pretty ordinary, but they copped it too, thanks to the National Socialists, who were about as removed from Christianity as the Communists and today's Greens.

Critics of Christianity, those who hate Christianity, are without exception those who know the least about it. They are totally unaware that their ravings mark them out as complete idiots.

ttbn

All wars involving the western elite are made up of killers who claim to hold Christian ethics and values. Along with the guns and bombs these Christians also take along their padres to pray for their murderous success.

As for your spin on WWI and II, me thinks you watched too many John Wayne movies.

Paul,

And the Soviet Union's leaders proclaimed themselves as atheists, and murdered tens of millions of their fellow-citizens. Because of their atheism ? I don't think so.

Correlation does not mean causation. As an atheist, I don't think that Soviet atheism was central to their mass-murder - rather, it was a failed ideology (within weeks of the Revolution) and a paranoia about dissent. But more crucial was the anti-democratic belief that, since they had the One True Utopian Blueprint, anybody who questioned it was an enemy, to be exterminated.

Extreme-Right and extreme-Left tend to unintentionally converge in their devaluation of democracy: in the twenties and even the thirties, many left-wingers (and even some right-wingers) praised both Mussolini's fascism and Lenin's and Stalin's Bolshevism as equally promising as bringing about a sort of New Society free of bourgeois prejudices like democracy, the right to vote, the rule of law, etc. in favour of a 'brave' and 'stern' unblinking focus on the Bright Pre-Written Future.

But, instead of a straight-line political spectrum from extreme-Left to extreme-Right, with Democracy somewhere in the middle, I agree with writers like Hayek who proposed something more like a triangle, with flexible arms at the ends of which were those extremes pivoting away from Democracy, which could move towards each other - in other words, socialism could - and in my view, inevitably would - swing towards fascism when it was deemed 'socially necessary', to 'protect the revolution'.

What else would one call China's policies towards the Uighur people of Xinzhiang ? Not much 'love thy neighbour' there.

So I hope that the current adolescent devaluing of democracy, in favour (inevitably) of 'strong leadership', even 'one world government under strong leadership', is just an temporary, infantile disorder.

Joe

Gentlemen,

Over the centuries, the number of people involved in,
and killed by, warfare has increased dramatically.

Alexander the Great set out to conquer the world as he knew
it with an army of less than 40,000 men. William the
Conqueror invaded England with 50,000 men. The Napoleonic
Wars involved hundreds of thousands of soldiers.

In the American Civil War, nearly 2 million men were under
arms. During World War I, some 65 million troops were
mobilized, and 19 million people were killed.

The carnage of that pointless and dreadful conflict so
stunned the world that people called it "the war to end all
wars," for they knew humanity would never commit such folly
again.

World War II followed a mere twenty-one years later - and this
time, almost 100 million people took up arms, and an estimated
38 million soldiers and civilians were killed. All told in the
past century there have been over forty wars that resulted in
100,000 deaths or more with a total loss of life of about
83 million people.
Today, the major powers maintain huge standing armies.

Of course, in a nuclear war, the size of armies would be
irrelevant, for the entire civilian population of the
countries concerned would be brought into the arena of battle
along with much of the rest of the world's population.

To a visitor from another planet, it would seem that the
modern world is obsessed with preparations for "defense"
(it is never called "offense"). Many countries spend more
of their budgets for military purposes than they do for
education or medical care. Over the past
century global spending for military purposes
has consumed an estimated amount in the
trillions of dollars.

This represents a colossal diversion of funds from socially useful
goals, for example, a single hour's worth of these
expenditures would suffice to save, through immunization
the 120,000 children around the world who die each
day from preventable infectious diseases.

That's something worth thinking about.

Paul

Balderdash. Is what ever you are watching or reading veiled by smoke from reefers? Atheistic Communists and Islam take the cake for mass killings.

You cannot claim to be a person of Christian virtue, and then take up arms and murder millions, not possible. War runs contrary to supposed Christian teaching.

As for the nonsense statement from the John Wayne fan; "Atheistic Communists and Islam take the cake for mass killings". BALDERDASH (the word of the day). I'll agree they kill their fair share, but the take the cake award in the past 100 years goes to the god fearing Christians!

"And the Soviet Union's leaders proclaimed themselves as atheists, and murdered tens of millions of their fellow-citizens. Because of their atheism? I don't think so."

Well Joe, must say atheism would be no impediment to murdering millions, unlike Christianity there is no atheist doctrine to prevent such. BTW Did not Joe Stalin try out for the Russian Orthodox Church?

Well said Foxy, I totally agree.

Paul,

Yes, Stalin did try out or the priesthood. I think, so did Mugabe. It's no great problem to flip from one totalitarianism, from one Utopian script, to another.

Joe

Here's an oldie about Stalin:

When Stalin completed 25 years of his rule over
Russia he wanted a special postage stamp issued, with
his picture on it.

The stamps were duly released. Within a few days Stalin
began hearing complaints that the stamps were not
sticking properly, and he became furious.

Stalin called his Chief of the Secret Service and ordered
him to investigate the matter. The Chief checked the
matter out and then presented a report to Stalin on the
problem.

The report stated:

"There is nothing wrong with the quality of the stamps.
The problem is our citizens are spitting on the wrong
side."

Here's another oldie about Trump:

An American and a Russian are having a drink in a bar in
Washington D.C. The American smiles and smugly says to the
Russian - "Here in Washington we can yell abuse about our
President in the streets - and nothing will happen!"

The Russian thinks for a moment, and then confidently replies:

"In Moscow we can yell abuse about your President in the
streets - and nothing will also happen!"

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

«Being open to a fleeing population to come and live with you is an act of love on a national level.»

There is no such thing as "love on a national level" because only sentient beings are able to love and sacrifice for the love of others - and a nation (if such a legendary animal even exists) is not a sentient being.

It could well be that certain government ministers(s) love people of other countries and refugees in particular, but helping them with other people's money or at the expense of other citizens, is not a true act of love. Moreover, it hinders the ability of others to fulfil God's commandment.

No one can be forced to love, so if your money was taken away from you without your consent and given away even for the best of causes, then no love was present, you accrued no merit and fulfilled no commandment. You could still have some extra after-tax money to donate, but there would be less of it and more difficult to give.

You can of course give/contribute through organised charities and churches, but in order for love to operate, it needs to be voluntary.

«However how many people do you need to have compassion on before you have compassion on their home country.»

It is good to have compassion for people, as many as you can, but why have compassion for a country? A country cannot feel pain!

«Think of commercials for starving children in Africa or in India. Those charity drives made into 30 second clips»

But why would you, a seeker of God, want to expose your psyche to unhealthy things such as alcohol, drugs, gambling or commercials? Fortunately I have no television, never had, thus I was able to avoid exposure to commercial clips.

«Some even go as far as a love for their country. Choosing a profession that is aimed at serving the country they love»

But that is foolish: by all means, do love as many people as you can, but why love a static object or an abstract idea?

Good people do good things, bad people do not
Know a bloke, kind hearted but to a fault
Knew his neighbor was doing it hard, but needed a paling fence, paid for two thirds of the palings
Bought and installed a recycling toilet irrigation system for them
Too truck load of gravel and built a driveway, [out of the mud it had been]
Said bloke was near savaged by American bit bull, over the fence constantly
Said bloke? trashed by neighbor for insisting said dog was a danger
Such folks is life

Australia's most notorious serial killer, Ivan Milat, has died in prison from terminal oesophagus and stomach cancer. Milat, 74, died at Sydney's Long Bay hospital at 4.07am on Sunday.

Never been the one for capital punishment, but the passing of Milat, well....another failure of the human race.

Paul knew him, he worked on the roads and after for a sub contractor
In my area, in fact many of us interviewed after a body was found very near here
Stunning that SOME believe he was innocent
Not me
Mum born in Bargo, his home for part of his life
We kids returned there during childhood, never thought I would leave that part of the world
Of interest my long dead dad 40 years before Milate, told us about grave found in that forest [a family] murdered there, spooking just stopping to rest in there

Belly,

The only good thing about Milat is the manner and inevitability of his passing.

Bargo: a family story, most likely untrue, is that an ancestor, my gr-grandfather, was the first white kid born in Bargo, in 1835. His father had been a convict, working for Mrs MacArthur, and his mother the daughter of two convicts. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree :)

Joe

Loudmouth well lived in Bargo, Yanderra Yerinbool,dad worked on railway and we moved often
Mums dad [she had 12 other siblings] worked on construction of dams, Nepean Avon and one other can not name it Cordox?
Got to spend time at grand mums farm there even after we left
Good and bad memorys, those two kids found dead in that bridge pilon haunt me still
We, all of our family, learned to swim at the pot holes now called Pheasants nest
Ivan was no good, some brothers? no better

.

Economic modelling by Deloitte Access Economics for Oxfam found that increasing Australia’s Refugee and Humanitarian Program could have notable positive impacts on the broader economy. An increase in the humanitarian intake from 18,750 in 2019–2020 to 44,000 by 2022–2023 would:

• increase the size of the Australian economy by $37.7 billion in net present value terms2 over the next 50 years. On average, Gross Domestic Product (GDP) could be $4.9 billion greater annually (in $2017–20183) between 2018–2019 and 2067–2068;

• sustain on average an additional 35,000 full-time equivalent jobs in the Australian economy every year for the next 50 years; and

• increase demand for Australian goods and services by $18.2 billion4 in net present value terms.

As regards the “help thy neighbour” attitude of Australians, the Scanlon Foundation surveys of 2018 and 2017 found that :

• 81% of respondents indicated in 2018 that people were ‘willing to help their neighbours’, 83% in 2017;

• 74% agreed in 2018 that in the local area ‘people from different national or ethnic groups get on well together’, 76% in 2017

On Australia’s immigration intake, the Scanlon Foundation found 44% of the view that the intake was ‘too high’, 55% that it was ‘about right’ or ‘too low’. Asked to respond to the proposition that ‘multiculturalism has been good for Australia’, agreement in 2018 stood at 85%.

The report notes, however, that :

Immigration is a more complex issue for the Liberal National Coalition and for Labor, given the profile their support base and those they seek to attract. Among those who indicate that they would vote for the Coalition, a majority (54%-56%) consider that immigration is ‘too high,’ among Labor voters were in the range 36%-43%. For these mainstream parties there is a juggle, a challenge to balance their electoral appeal given the different elements of the population they seek to retain or attract.

Politicians are clearly out of step with the country’s economists, religious leaders and most ordinary citizens on the important question of the intake of refugees and humanitarian migrants in Australia.

That's our problem !

.

Well put Banjo but can we base our whole future on constant growth
Will a day come when growth is not sustainable
A weekend story about politics highlighted post ww2 migrants no longer trust the major party's, even vote one nation
Once they voted Labor
Importing election victory seems impossible but if true remains wrong

Bringing the discussion closer to home, my personal experience with my next door neighbor who I didn't speak to for 7 years because he cut me off for the crime (as he saw it) of not letting him cut down a tree in my garden because it cast a shadow on one of his fruit trees. Try as I did I just couldn't raise any passion in his direction at all.

Banjo, do you think it is entirely possible that "Economic modelling by Deloitte Access Economics for Oxfam found" exactly what the organisation commissioning &* paying for the research wanted to be found. I may be cynical, but it is because of garbage "research" such as this.

There is no mention of the fact that the overall economy may not suffer too much because of excessive migration, but most of the individual citizens do suffer. The GDP per person is falling & increasingly rapidly. only a few elite benefit from high migration.

westozzy my post about much the same, was me v a very long term mates daughter
Truth is country or just the bloke over the fence truth often gets side tracked
That dog? hurt another person big time and in the end proved my point there are no bad dogs
But bad owners exist in huge numbers

.

Dear Hasbeen,

.

You ask :

« Banjo, do you think it is entirely possible that "Economic modelling by Deloitte Access Economics for Oxfam found" exactly what the organisation commissioning &* paying for the research wanted to be found ? »

That’s a possibility that can’t be ruled out, Hasbeen. There are rogues in many major organisations. Deloitte is one of the "Big Four" accounting organizations and the largest professional services network in the world by revenue and number of professionals. But, as you know, the rule in such cases is “innocent until proven guilty”.

I should be very surprised if your argument that …

« there is no mention of the fact that the overall economy may not suffer too much because of excessive migration, but most of the individual citizens do suffer. The GDP per person is falling & increasingly rapidly. only a few elite benefit from high migration » …

… would be considered conclusive evidence of guilt by any reputable court of law in Australia.

How do you define “excessive migration” ? What evidence can you provide to prove your claim that the Deloitte report is « garbage "research" » ?

Have you reviewed the report ? If so, perhaps you would be so kind as to indicate what prompted you to condemn it in such negative terms.

The GDP per capita in Australia was down 0.2% for the period June 2017 to June 2018 but this came after a 28-year run of steady growth. GDP Annual Growth Rate in Australia averaged 3.44 percent from 1960 until 2019.

There are cyclical and structural phenomena as well as sectorial problems contingent on circumstances that affect the Australian economy but, in my humble opinion, the groundswell factors that will affect us in the long term are our dependence on the Chinese economy and our increasingly conservative aging population.

The need to increase our intake of immigrant workers and (why not?) humanitarian migrants, may not be evident to everyone today, but, in my view, it will become more and more evident as time goes by.

.

Hi westozzy,

I welcome your return to the forum. Unfortunately neighbour disputants are all too common, be it the annoying tree, or noisy lawnmower on a Sunday morning, there is a multitude of possibilities. Some will tell you that the solution is the arming of the populace with guns, aka an American Dodge City mentality. That possibility can only lead to disaster for all and sundry, where things would easily escalate to a violent out of hand situation very quickly, in some instance.

If loving ones neighbour means turning them into a corpse I cannot agree.

The Christian principle also deals with enemies. give food and water to a hungry or thirsty opponent, and pray the opponent might be changed to a fellow traveller. These principles have changed societies. That is why Australia give assistance in overseas aid.

However Islam is very much against this motive, as they believe it is deceptive. Their view is kill an enemy, from the papers I have read from the Australian Muslim foundation. Do not trust or make friends with Jews or Christians or infidels, they are your enemy.

My solution was quite simple I knocked on his door and told him the disagreement had come to an end as far as I was concerned. Common sense prevailed, sadly he is a very sick person and my love thy neighbor is now directed to his wife and son whos need for my assistance when he has a fall or some other urgency pops up.
Most of the comments here seem to me to be a battle of who knows more than the next person on migration or the acceptance of refugees and the economical cost effect on the country etc. Something as simple as putting a dollar into a can outside a supermarket which Im sure everyone has at sometime is loving thy neighbor even tho it may be for a cat a dog or a local nursing home whatever. Loving your neighbor is your conscience at a time when you have to make a decision are they worth it and do you have any spare love to give. I feel sorry for anyone that has a politician living next door to him or her coz that would be a very difficult decision to make under any circumstances.

A story I remember from the Russian revolution, was of a young Christian woman that was being herded up by Sergei, and she treated him with respect and courtesy. Even though she had been bashed with the but of his gun. After she was imprisoned and sent to Siberia, this incident had an impact on Sergei that he felt he had to escape from the violence of Communism. He writes of his story of how he managed to become a deck hand on ship and while sailing near the Alaskan coast could see lights on the shore, and put on a life jacket and began swimming toward them but became unconscious and found himself washed up on the shore. He later became Christian and writes his story in a book bearing his name.

In the real world, not books, it is often impossible to get along with some who live next door
Maybe it is a need some have to isolate themselves but whatever it is it happens
I truly, think turning the other cheek, multiple times, is best but know for some it only gives the opportunity to make things worse
I find myself in that position now, but know had the dog been mine? and constantly tried to kill one of them? while I sat in the house refusing to even call it?

Dear Belly,

Talking about dogs. We had a neighbour across
the street who had a prize winning dog (a bitch)
that he was very protective of. Well our kelpie
cross used to go across at night when the female
dog was in heat. One evening our kelpie did not come
home. We later learned according to the man's son
that his father had killed our kelpie and buried
it in his backyard. We couldn't prove anything of course.

This bloke was a real piece of work. He used to lock
his son in the shed overnight when the kid misbehaved
to teach him a lesson. You could hear the young kid
crying for hours -'çause he was scared. No wonder he
turned on his father.

Foxy very sad and that man should have served time in prison
My case is every bit as bad, that dog [one of two same breed held there] killed a small dog owned by the same people, ripped it up for no reason
Then took a third under the fence in to every house in the street, frightening owners
They asked me to do something about it
Took my time but lunging at me time and again got too much
Ended a thirty year friendship with her dad and me but such is life

To Yuyutsu.

Good people expose themselves to the worse conditions of the world because they care about those in those conditions. It was one of the teachings of Jesus to look after the widows and orphans, the sick, or even those in prison. Having compassion on the addict and the drunk fall in the same role. Though it seems to make it easier to do this for kids and teens then it to have compassion on an adult stuck in the same problems. I say this because that's where a lot of focus is aimed when it comes to community projects or government sponsored projects. Get kids out of gangs, and away from drugs. Nonetheless a reason to expose yourself to the worse parts of the word, is because you care for those stuck in those situations. Have compassion.

Countries feel no pain? I disagree. A country is like a person, only bigger. A government makes the same kinds of decisions a single person makes, only a government's decisions hold more influence and can do more good or cause more harm (depending on the decision) then an individual can. A country though is more then just the government, it's the people too. If a people are in poverty, then they suffer from it. If a country is in poverty, it is exposed to the same kind of pain and suffering. As an example I would say Venezuela as a country is in a lot of pain.

Regardless how you feel about governments though, they still exist and influence the world around us. As for taxes regardless if you agree with taxes, taxes are the bread and butter that fuel any government.

As for fulfilling a commandment, I think you should reconsider how a person can love their neighbor instead of trying to say what disqualifies that person from showing love. A country can feel pain, and it can also feel compassion. I've seen both.

To Josephus.

Good points. Loving one's neighbor also includes loving one's enemy. Not only is this about the reasons for foreign aid to other countries, but it also has the effect of changing those who are on the receiving end of of your compassion. Well said.

To Belly.

I've seen people change their attitude towards me because of how I acted towards them. This is true for coworkers, it would be true for neighbors also. Though it is not easy to do if you have a complaint against them, or they seem to have a disgust towards you, if the opportunity arises to show love to a bad neighbor when they are in need, then that love will not be forgotten. It can change people. Or at least it will change how they are around you.

not now soon just a minute old mate, first that house , been three owners from my move here
Mates with first two, second lot even drive from Sydney to say gday
Now my [ gone now] problem, mum and dad my friends, asked about house value before buying
Had a bit of a hard time, needed fence after purchase
Paid two thirds of the costs to buy it then helped install it
Pump out system [recycled on lawn] very poor, yard swampy, bought and installed [without asking] a new system yard returned to dry good lawn
Bit swampy driveway, installed rainwater drain on my side of fence, had [ paid for] truck load of road base delivered and made a driveway, dad helps son in law watched
So? daughter modern miss, hard to get on with, constantly shutting doors trying to not hear her abuse husband and? Foster kids!
They not me, needed to change, such is life indeed some people can not be good
Mum and dad still own the house, we do not speak, had the woman been my daughter? my door is open but not my child syndrome is at work

The problem most have with "love thy neighbour" is a lack of understanding of the neighbour. That applies on the personal level, the new foreign family that's moved in next door, and on the international level, those buggers from Somewhere. Without knowing these people we formulate preconceived ideas about them, mostly negative notions. The negativity in us leads to mistrust, bigotry, jealousy, hatred and sometimes violence.

During my lifetime I've had the privilege of not only meeting many Australians, but many people from foreign lands as well. I've been privileged to make many good friends from the people I have met over the years, I've got to know people on a personal level. It's my belief that 95% of Australians are essentially good, honest, decent people, but so are 95% of all peoples.

My wife is the greatest at meeting and greeting people I've every come across. Last week an elderly Aussie lady about 80 or more, 84 I believe, knocks on the door, I answer; "Hello, you must be Paul, I'm Annette, is "T" home". By then the wife is calling "Hi Annette, come in." Annette was a lovely lady, living on her own, a bit lonely. She stayed for an hour, we all talked, had tea, learnt much about Annette and her interesting life story etc etc. After she left, I asked the wife how did you meet Annette? "Well, I was at the shopping centre, sat down on my own for a coffee, at the next table was an old lady on her own, so we talked for a while, then I gave her our address and phone number, and told her to call me, or call in anytime she wants". The wife is forever doing that sort of thing.

Meeting the Native American gentleman from the Navajo tribe, when he comes to Australia soon on a speaking tour should be interesting. According to the wife he will be spending a day with indigenous people while in Brisbane, to discuss local matters. Since she has got to know the gentleman, he has invited us to come along.

"The Washington Post obituary read, "Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, austere religious scholar at helm of Islamic State, dies at 48."

He is presented as a religious scholar of Islam; but it should be noted he was a rapist, murderer and violent defender of Islam. He is what Islam is about; Kill your opponent. Never about love your neighbour, he could not accept different world views to his. Only one world view must prevail, similarly with totalitarian communism. Diverse freedoms are not allowed, the State must rule.

Love your neighbour, or rather respect your neighbour as equal human is more to the point; as the term love has become corrupted as it is undefined in the current situation. The rule of personal freedoms have advanced the development of the individual and society.

'My wife is the greatest at meeting and greeting people I've every come across.'

so it is true that opposites attract Paul?

Paul quite true but when mental illness gets a run and that was my case, kindness is not in play
Josephus ok agree the vermin is better off dead along with every single supporter in the world
NEVER forget most of his victims are MUSLIM

To Belly.

I'm not asking you to change for your neighbor's sake. Let me explain it another way.

There's a difference between kindness and vindictiveness. Heck you don't even have to be kind to know the difference between seeking justice, and "giving someone what they deserve." You can go so far as to not help someone and silently celebrate their losses because they deserve what's coming to them even if you didn't have a hand in it. I'm sure you can tell were to draw the line for being vindictive in each of those situations.

For your neighbor, the line is more on the issue of seeking justice (for everyone's sake including the abusive husband), verses either giving them more chances, or doing nothing at all. Seeking justice and giving more chances can both be considered as a type of kindness, while doing nothing is either a lack of love for them, or an acknowledgement that there's nothing that you can do. With justice you can hope that the husband will turn from his behavior and go a different route once he's lost everything. His future is better with that in mind. With giving several second chances you can also allow him to get better without having to lose everything in the wake of a mistake or three. Or it will make you part of his actions because you fail to let him face the consequences that would change him and protect his family.

(Continued)

(Continued)

All of those issues can be a matter of wisdom, something that I don't think any of us will make the right decisions on all the time. Nonetheless, an act of kindness when there is a need for kindness may change things considerably. And that kind of opportunity is not there just because you decide to be kind.

There's a large gap between kindness and vindictiveness. Still, I thought it should be noted anyways. There's also a difference between doing favors for someone without recognition, versus being there for them when they lose a family member, or otherwise are in need of outside kindness. It's might not a matter of you changing for your neighbor, as much as there's been no opportunity to actually help things get better. On the other hand maybe you do need to change. Be willing to be kind, if you've lost that. I don't know you or your neighbors so ?I can't make that judgment call for you.

To Paul.

I think a good rule of thumb is to treat others the way you yourself what to be treated. I bet you can look at your wife as being exceptional in this attribute. I know I can look at my wife for the same. She thinks of so much for another person. Such concern or understanding I'm sure from thinking how it would be if she was in their shoes. But even without that understanding to know their situation and understand either their needs or how they might take something, you can still treat someone else in the same way you'd like to be treated yourself. If it doesn't go well the first time, persestance will win out, because I'm sure we all learn when we see someone take what we meant as an act of kindness as insulting or otherwise wrong. Learning the slow way doesn't stop the intent to love your neighbor.

To Josephus.

A question for ya. What does it mean to love your country? I hope you don't share Yuyutsu's conclusion that that is impossible.

I'm sure you can guess my direction for the question, for why that same answer can't be applied to loving a neighbor's country. For the sake of the conversation though, I hope you or anyone else can put it into terms. What it means to love your country. I really was hoping to continue the conversation of what options are available to Australia to love their neighbors, instead of arguing if it was possible for Australia to love it's neighbors.

not now soon the HUSBAND WAS/IS abused
Her first husband my mate still, was abused
I NEVER think of vindictiveness and say a friendly gday to everyone every time
Sinking to her level is no answer
Some people have too much love for their kids harming them, because they never learn rules we must all understand

Note that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was dumped at sea as was Osama bin Laden. Not much love there. People are calling for Ivan Milat to rot in Hell. Not much love there.

While you goody two shoes are pontificating about loving everyone, I'll bet you make exceptions when it suits you. I wonder if you ever put your sanctimonious 'love they neighbour' into practice, or just talk about it.

Some people simply do not like other people, and vice versa.

Some people's behavior is simply unacceptable.
Especially the ones who play the victim in circumstances
they created. But that's what bullies do. It's never
their fault. It's always yours.

Some days on this forum the best thing about posting is
the chair I'm sitting on in front of my computer.
It's fun, it spins.

Fox grit your teeth, spread your arms, use your elbows
And understand some have an IQ of a rather drunk field mouse

"While you goody two shoes are pontificating about loving everyone, I'll bet you make exceptions"

Well...yeah ttbn... we do when necessary.... the last one was Adolf, now we're got you.... you're definitely an exception! Up there with Ivan and Bin Daddy, I believe! Have a nice day.

The closet thing to a perfect human being said 'Love thy (not your) neighbour'. And that's what he meant: unconditionally. No exceptions.

You people are hypocrites. You are dishonest posers.

I am happy to say that I don't have much time at all for people. I love nobody outside my family. I treat most people I come into contact with with friendliness, or at least politeness, because I have to live with them. It's the way I was brought up. But that's it. Unlike three of the nastiest posters here, I don't feel the need to pose as something I am not

We do not have to accept bad human behaviour from a neighbour, but living with it without direct retaliation is beneficial for us. As a Christian we are to pray for our unregenerate neighbour, that they might be enlightened to a better relationship. Learning to forgive is healthy. However if the neighbour is blind to their offensive behaviour they must be confronted, and it might be a personal approach or the law that enlightens them.

We as Christians pray even for the worst of offenders, as Christianity first spread from the conversion of one religious zealot Saul of Tarsus who murdered the first Christians. We believe God can change zealots minds, and it has happened. For example Slave trader John Newton who became Christian setting slaves free. I hear of many stories of ISIS fighters having dreams of Jesus and turning to Christianity. We pray this will happen. Enlightened human behaviour changes lives.

Not_Now.Soon,

<< what does it mean to love your neighbor? Should you love a neighboring country. Would it mean more trade? An active involvement in their country. (Like trying to help build infrastructure, curbing corruption, finding justice, or protecting through your military)?>>

What an excellent question!

In the Christian Scriptures, the command 'love your neighbour' appears not once but 8 times, one example being: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these” (Mark 12:30-31).

This is not a sexual or romantic love. It is an unconditional love of compassion that is commanded among Christian people and not nations. It is what I need for me to function and is what I should give to others personally. It is fleshed out in 1 Corinthians 13. No airy-fairy stuff here.

This kind of love is expressed especially among people: It is kind, patient; not jealous, boastful, proud or rude. It isn't selfish, quick tempered. It doesn't keep a record of wrongs others do. It rejoices in the truth but not in evil done. It is always supportive, loyal, hopeful and trusting. This kind of love 'never fails' (1 Cor 13:4-8).

Imagine living in Australia with those kinds of relationships. It was possible for the Christians of Corinth to attain but they are like us and are hampered by evil and deceitful thoughts that result in evil actions.

What a superb society we would have if people loved to the point of not keeping a record of wrongs done by others? This requires the forgiveness God enables us to give and the power of love in God's people.

ttbn,

If what you say is true, then why do you continue
to make personal comments about people thereby
baiting a reaction?

It seems that
you can't help yourself. And you thrive on this.
Nastiness encourages people
to react if you keep on pushing their buttons.

You need to stop your behavior which you consistently
deny. We'd love to see who you really are - if as you
claim you aren't what we're currently seeing.

If you were to really "try to be nice," (ttbn) instead
of the "tough tenacious biting nit" (ttbn) that you're
currently presenting to us - then perhaps things would
change for you on this forum. But you can't keep on
doing what you do, and expect different results.

We're willing to give it a go, how about you trying?

It's perhaps worth pointing out that the phrase from the New Testament would have revolved around the Greek word " agapaw " meaning a lot broader than 'love' - to be considerate of and concerned for, to esteem, to regard as worthy of human respect and courtesy as a fellow human being.

It contains the seeds of the notion that all human beings are equal, and should be regarded as having equal rights, similar feelings and concerns, etc. That doctrine stands in stark contrast with tribal and clan ideology in which strangers are assumed to be hostile and not quite human, certainly not to be awarded equal consideration, and perhaps to be exterminated, as one would an ant.

That 'live and let live' ideology is also violently opposed by many other religious ideologies, such as Islam, at least in their religious texts - if not in daily life, which should give us some hope.

Joe

When the neighbours popped into ttbn house;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDFZflAfhy0

It is a great thought, love like get along with, the bloke next door
Once we did, we knew every one in our street as kids
In fact kids bought the bloke next door home
My country villages [not this xenophobic one] saw us know everyone talk to every one help if needed
Modern life has changed us but not all of us
One thing you can bet your house on
Anyone openly telling us they do not like people has a mental illness
About xenophobia, my home town,it has a long history and a good one
It is about half blow ins from another place, me being one, we are not considered locals and, after a time, like it that way
ANY group activity market day tennis court, hall, is the product of us new comers

Every year since 2012 we have lived in a new housing development, so organised a Christmas street BBQ and invited all the neighbours. Initially we had 38 children and 17 adults all from new builds, but in the last few years houses have changed hands and neighbours do not now intermingle so the street Party only attracts about a dozen mainly aged.

We should focus on our own lot, and leave others to do the same.

The best neighbours are the ones who mind their own business and don't impose on you.
But who, in times of trouble would willingly open their door to help if they can.

To Armchair Critic.

You pose to live and let live in the international world (and possibly on indivual level of neighbors). Yet you've given one exception. If there is need to open their doors, or help in any other way that you can.

My follow up question is what are the ways that Australia can help it's neighbors in need. What options are good options. The world is not a paradise, so the question of "if there's a need" is not a matter of if, it's a matter of who, and whether or not Australians can do anything to help their neighbor.

AC you have it right say good morning and let it rest but be there if needed or wanted
True mateship can not be enforced it grows or does not

Enforced?

Let me give an example. On my way to work I usually see someone on a busy corner with a sign looking for handouts. After a few weeks of this I thought, "what can I do? What is within my means?" Since then I try to pack an extra item in my lunch, usually a store bought breakfast bar, to hand to whoever is on that corner.

The reason for the extra item of food is because I'm aware of a problem within homeless populations to use money they beg for for drugs or beer. I don't want to contribute to making them worse, and I can't actually solve the issue for whoever is on the corner that day, (outside of my means to provide). But a small extra item in my lunch is an easy and manageable option that I can do to help.

It is this kind of approach I am asking about. What is within our means to help another country? And what can we do that actually help. (Throwing money away at a corrupt government isn't helping impovished countries).

That said, apparently this question is a waste of time and effort. Even to explain. Is this that hard of a concept? Or is it true that our hearts have grown so cold, that even asking this type of question is met with resistance to the topic that you should or you could help another nation. I'm not saying do this, do that. I'm just asking for you all to think on the lines of what options do you have available. You can descide later if you want to use those options for one country you think is worth helping, or that needs the help regardless of your history with them.

Either way. Forget it. Balls in your all's court. Let the winter cold air freeze it, and forget about it. (Can Austrialia as a whole be so cold?)

NNS,
<<My follow up question is what are the ways that Australia can help it's (sic) neighbors in need.>>

Overview of Australia’s aid program in Indonesia
How we are helping:

+ 2018-19 Total Australian ODA Estimated Outcome
$331.3 million

ODA = Official Development Assistance

+ 2019-20 Bilateral Budget Estimate $255.7 million
+ 2019-20 Total Australian ODA Estimate $298.5 million

The Australian Government will provide an estimated $298.5 million in total ODA to Indonesia in 2019-20, including an estimated $255.7 million in bilateral funding managed by DFAT.

DFAT = Dept of Foreign Affairs & Trade

How we work together

We work in an economic partnership, supporting Indonesia's efforts to tackle inequality and maintain social stability, promote tolerance and pluralism, and counter violent extremism. We provide policy and technical advice that will improve the quality of Indonesia's investments in infrastructure, economic governance, human development and social policy, including in the area of law and justice.
See: http://dfat.gov.au/geo/indonesia/development-assistance/pages/development-assistance-in-indonesia.aspx

NNS,
<< What is within our means to help another country? And what can we do that actually help. (Throwing money away at a corrupt government isn't helping impovished (sic) countries).

That said, apparently this question is a waste of time and effort. Even to explain. Is this that hard of a concept?>>

The problem is not with our callous country. ‘In 2019–20, we will provide a record level of assistance of $1.4 billion to the Pacific’. That’s hardly a pittance for a country of 24 million: http://dfat.gov.au/about-us/corporate/portfolio-budget-statements/Documents/2019-20-australian-aid-budget-summary.pdf

I’m not supportive of the view that we can help/love our neighbours by money given through development programs as Australia still deals with a country and it ethical or unethical standards.

For me, a better approach is what I’ve done for many years in sponsoring children through Compassion International, http://www.compassion.com.au/where-we-work/indonesia
Compassion currently sponsors 75,000 children in Indonesia.

World Vision sponsors children and offers humanitarian and disaster support in Indonesia: http://www.worldvision.org/our-work/country-profiles/indonesia

Samaritan’s Purse sent planeloads of supplies to Indonesia in 2018 after the tsunami: http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/samaritans-purse-sending-planeloads-of-aid-to-indonesia-to-help-victims-of-deadly-tsunami-694958511.html

Armchair Critic,

<< We should focus on our own lot, and leave others to do the same.

The best neighbours are the ones who mind their own business and don't impose on you. But who, in times of trouble would willingly open their door to help if they can.>>

What a selfish view! We’d be in a sad state if others followed your anti-Good Samaritan view.

Last Monday, a mother with 4 children under age 6 wasn’t coping with pre-natal depression in a Centrelink office. She discovered that, through an administrative error she would not receive paid parental leave payments for 4 months.

She and her husband had just finished moving into their new house. It was in a state of ‘chaos’. She went to Centrelink with her 4-month-old baby and 2 toddlers. She was not coping and burst into tears. Her children had begun to misbehave.

It was then that a beautiful lady did not follow your philosophy but sad down with the kids, gave them her phone to watch shows on and handed the crying mother a tissue.

She didn’t know the issues of the crying mother but also had been a struggling mother herself. She was unknown to the mother but the simple act of a stranger meant the world to the upset mother.

“She didn’t know that I have bad post-natal depression and everyday is a battle and lately it’s been taking a toll.

“She just knew that I was a struggling mum.”
The 2 women have now connected: http://au.news.yahoo.com/sydney-womans-kind-act-for-broken-mum-crying-in-centrelink-114100200.html

I now know of one young woman who won’t have a bar of your ‘focus on our own lot’.

All this virtue signalling is pompous prattishisness given that people don't even know their neighbours' names these days. People are so suspicious of each other that they can't even look you in the eye, or greet you in passing on the footpath. I walk ever day, and always look to speak to people going in the opposite direction. Rarely do people not look at the ground or across the road to avoid a simple g'day.

ttbn,

<<All this virtue signalling is pompous prattishisness (sic) given that people don't even know their neighbours' names these days. People are so suspicious of each other that they can't even look you in the eye, or greet you in passing on the footpath.>>

I wish you would do research before coming up with your personal view, which you've given us here. 'People don't even know'. How do you know? 'People are so suspicious of each other'. Which people?

That might be the way it is for you, but it certainly is not for me. I know and speak to ALL of the people in the street where I live. We can chat anytime we have the time.

You have committed Hasty Generalization logical fallacy with your view that 'people don't even know their neighbours' names these days. People are so suspicious of each other', http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/100/Hasty-Generalization

This fallacious reasoning demonstrated you drew a conclusion from a small number of people or an alleged group. You didn't provide us with stats to demonstrate your points.

You have given your opinion but it is not based on evidence you supplied.

OzSpen you are looking for fish in a long dry dam asking that poster anything

OzSpen,

"I wish you would do research before coming up with your personal view, which you've given us here. 'People don't even know'. How do you know? 'People are so suspicious of each other'. Which people?"

Do you now? How do you know what 'research' I've done or haven't done?

Have you heard of 'experience'? Do you have any? Or do you just rely on research - and repeating what someone else thinks?

How do I know? Experience. I've been around a good while. How old are you?

Which people? Most people. Not me and people of my generation.

I have " committed Hasty Generalization logical fallacy", have I? You sound as though you have just been put through a jargon generator brainwashing session during a Mickey Mouse degree course at a third rate regional university.

'Evidence' - being, of course, whatever bullshite you have read that appeals to you.

Unfortunately, in these times, people like you are never likely to mature and eventually see the light as people once did after they experienced actual life and reality.

Good Morning Folks,

Just to lighten things up a bit:

Every day a woman stood on her porch and shouted:

"Praise the Lord!"

And every day the atheist next door yelled back:

"There's no Lord!"

One day she prayed:

"Lord, I'm hungry. Please send me some groceries."

The next morning she found a big bag of food on her
porch.

"Praise the Lord, "she shouted.

"I told you there was no Lord," the neighbour yelled.

"I bought those groceries."

"Praise the Lord," said the woman.

"He not only sent me groceries, He made the devil
pay for them."

Enjoy your day.

ttbn,

You were crude and rude to me in your last comment.

We know the names of each and every person in our street and share and care for each other. You get one occasionally who wants to hide behind closed doors as though they have something to hide or have a paranoia of people.

We now see the difference in two political systems as demonstrated this week in Melbourne.
1. Based on "Might is right" that is raw democracy when the majority all believe an ideology: Marxist socialism disguised as Climate emergency promoted by the UN. Example Communist China. However it means anyone of a different world view is to be incarcerated and re-educated. However this does not apply to freedom of choice employment opportunities and contributing to the welfare of community, as all education is designed to do that.

2. That which has been the principle of Western democracy, "Love your neighbour as yourself", which allows freedom of the individual to feel accepted in community, and restraints on imposing draconian re-education or imprisonment or death on those who hold differing views. It should allow personal choice on opinions, without threat to others. "Respect your neighbour as an equal of you".

Hey Not_Now.Soon,
You've obviously got a heart of gold mate.
It's not a huge effort to make a sandwich, and it almost feels like a small accomplishment sometimes when you make an awesome sandwich.
A small gesture to try to help in your own way.
I'm certainly not opposed to you helping others if you have the will and means to do so.
I commend your kindness.

That said, I must admit I do have some strange views on things at times
I tend to look at pro's and con's in things.

I've pondered on the idea that possibly the best way to help someone is to not help them at all.

The problem I see is that if you help someone, they'll never learn to help themselves.

They might become accustomed to handouts, and your sandwich - as kind a gesture that it is; will become proof, evidence and justification that 'scabbing pays dividends', and that you don't need to help yourself.

So in some ways you're potentially contributing to their hopelessness by helping them.

To look deeper at this issue, ask yourself if this person wants a 'handup' or simply a 'handout', then find a way to test it.

If you said "If you'd be willing to give my car a wash I'll give you $30" then you'll find out whether that person is in it for a free handout, or whether they actually really want a handup, i.e an opportunity to help themselves.

- That is if they're physically capable of something like that.

I know it takes away the simple basis of human kindness 'helping for the sake of helping';

Helping others most certainly can be harmful if overdone.
People can be nurtured to their own detriment.
Young adults who never learned to wash their clothes, go shopping for themselves or make their own meals.
Kids who grow up to become fully grown babies...

Hey Spencer,
Does your bible not say something about 'feeding a person fish every day' as opposed to 'teaching a person to fish for themselves'?

* Emphasis: 'Handout' v's 'Handup'

You just want to take what everyone else has got to feed the less fortunate with handouts.
But what you're really trying to feed is your own beliefs and ego.

I'm disappointed in NNS, telling everyone about his good deeds. It has been my experience that genuinely generous and caring people don't brag about it; they just quietly go about it, never looking for recognition or reward.

"ttbn,

You were crude and rude to me in your last comment.
Posted by OzSpen, Saturday, 2 November 2019 9:06:14 AM"

And you would rather resort to offence-taking than address your own ignorant and incorrect assertions about my comments. You can let fly with all the wind you like, but if you are going criticise the opinions, knowledge and experience of other people you need to man up and expect consequences - assuming you are a man, of course.

Far from the first time a poster uses a thread to show us just how impossible it would be to love some
We are in decline, truth is some use every thread and every chance to be rude, needlessly so
It too is true most of us will turn the other check often but not forever
And sometimes the people next door, country or home, want nothing to do with us

Armchair Critic,
No the Bible does not say to keep feeding fish, to a person who can fish.

2. Thessalonians 3: 10 - 12 - "10For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. 11 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. 12 Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living."

Most Christian charities working in third world try to develop employment opportunities. Each year we buy goats, chickens and seeds for developing countries, and from this they can grow their herd, their broods and grain needs.

Thanks Josephus,

"No the Bible does not say to keep feeding fish, to a person who can fish."

- And it also doesn't say that you should never give a fish to someone who cannot fish. -

I'm not without compassion for those who are less fortunate or find themselves in hard times.

I'm only saying that there's a difference between a handup and a handout.

"Most Christian charities working in third world try to develop employment opportunities. Each year we buy goats, chickens and seeds for developing countries, and from this they can grow their herd, their broods and grain needs."

That's good, I commend your efforts.
I'm not opposed to individuals doing whatever they can for others.
It's your life, your time and your investment in helping others.
- And it has nothing to do with anyone else -

But when Spencer and other advocate that we 'as a nation' should be taxed accordingly and foreign aid mandated like a license to help themselves to other peoples wallets without consent, there I draw a line.
That's mandated theft and treason.

I could make the argument that Australian taxes should not be spent on foreign aid while our own citizens sit homeless or on hospital waiting lists.

Armchair Critic

Certainly the socialist view of foreign aid is to steal from the workers, line the pockets of ngos and govt. workers and give the poor the crumbs. Certainly ATSIC seemed to work on that philosophy. You are right that believers in Christ will be generous without having to blow a trumpet. Any study with any integrity (unlike gw religion) will find Christians give far more to the poor from their own pockets than the general population.

runner,

Jews don't do too badly in giving either.

As do atheists - they give a heck of a lot
as well.

As do Muslims.

As do Buddhists.

And many others.

But then who's counting - right?

Ah, wait - you are. Good Christian that you are.
(smile).

Armchair Critic,

<<Hey Spencer, Does your bible not say something about 'feeding a person fish every day' as opposed to 'teaching a person to fish for themselves'?>>

Please provide me with the biblical references to support your claim!!

How easy is it to help. This is not for everyone, but I and some friends have been involved for many years with 'Kiva Loans', and I can vouch for its honesty and effectiveness. As some say its a matter of a handup rather than a handout, 'Kiva Loans' is very much with that principle in mind. Well you be the judge.

p/s The repayment rate to me in the Oceania region for over 10 years, where I concentrate my lending, is better than 95%.

http://www.kiva.org/about

To OzSpen.

Thanks for the info for Australian foreign aid programs. And for the programs to donate to on our own. Glad to hear Both are alive and well.

To Paul1405,

From the link it looks like kiva is a good contribution site. Thanks for that, and I'll have to look into it a bit more.

To Armchair Critic.

Thanks for what you've said, but I didn't say anything to brag about. If that was my intent then I should have chosen something more then just a store bought breakfast bar. The truth is that this is an option for anyone to do, and requires no effort or anything to brag about. It's less then making a sandwich too. The truth is is I'm lazy in my efforts and need to find something more I can do outside of my work schedule.

As for the hand up idea. I like that idea quite a bit. Last I heard about it was in a church program to support development protects in other nations for access to water. That's the kind of think that I think should be sought after and encouraged is solutions so the community or the person can stand up on their own. Nonetheless most of that is still outside of the scope of what I have to offer, and I'm sure is outside the scope of what others can do too. Sometimes a handout is all we have the means to do when an opportunity shows itself. Something is better then nothing in my opinion, even if there are better options out there too.

To Josephes. Thanks for the encouragement throughout this topic. The employment opportunities through buying seed and farm animals is a good approach too. Along the lines of a hand up kind of thing. Thanks for all of it.

Well done Paul we need more like you unfortunately my repayment rate is not as good
But until death will believe we must help no matter how hard

To ttbn.

Be disappointed all you want. I'm no prize, so while it'll scuff up my pride and myself image, it really doesn't matter. I disagree with the idea to not pontificate good values. Jesus said once that the world hated him because he spoke out against their sins, and He warned the early disciples that the same would happen to them. The need for better actions, better values and turning from the crap we often readily accept is worth doing. Regardless if it's called pontificating, preaching or whatever else. As long as there's something more to it then just words to get credit for it then I'd call it all something better then just virtue signaling.

I am not trying to brag, as much as I was trying to redirect the focus of the conversation to actual actions people can do or support instead of swapping stories of horrible neighbors. The best example I had was based on my own life, as I'm sure the best examples anyone has in any topic are from their own lives. I doubt what I said is enough to brag about. If it is, that's something worse to consider. What audience am I confronting that a simple cheap (really cheap) act is counted as bragging?

As for the hypocrisy, your not wrong. However, I think as an individual there is only so much we can do, but as a group, people can cover each other's backs more. My weaknesses can be covered by someone else, or I can help cover their weaknesses. A community can do more with less hypocrisy, then an individual can with the standard that you have to do everything right on your own.

Hi Belly,

My wife believes in "charity through education". One of the problems in Fiji for example, is although education is supposedly free, it is often impossible for a family to keep a very bright child at school beyond the legal minimum age. They simply do not have the resources to do that. One program is where bright needy children are located through school headmasters (I think they are still using that term in Fiji) then a sponsor is found for that child to pay the cost of, for example boarding school in Suva (which offer the best of education), plus some family support. To go the whole hog with a child, on completing school its possible to sponsor the child into Australia for tertiary education. That is far more hands on, the child has to live with you, and you would need to provide much more financial support than is required for sponsorship back home.

Our "daughter" arrives in January, and our "Son" hopefully arrives in 2021, all thanks to the wife. "Daughter" wants to do a two year business studies course in Brisbane, which will boost her employment opportunities back home no end. While she is here, its not a free ride, find her part time work, she will be able to work up to 20 hour a week, depending on her education commitments. Its not easy for these kids, never being to Australia, they don't know us or Australians all that well, only seeing us maybe once a year, they see Aussie tourists, which they describe as funny people. The kids know nothing of big city life, and don't know what to expect, however they are adaptable. Fijian children are very much attached to their families, so homesickness becomes an issue with many, frequent trips back home are usually necessary as well.

p/s I don't know what "Daughter" will think, the first time she visits 'Westfields', the air trip will be something else, and a ride on a Brisbane train, said she is looking forward to that.

Hey Spencer,

"Please provide me with the biblical references to support your claim!!"

Take another look at what I wrote.
Was it a statement or a question?

- Idiot -

You're the bible expert.
Why do you turn everything into a childish power struggle?

Why not just correct me if I made a mistake and say that the quote in question isn't attributed to the bible?

If I'm wrong on something I happily admit it in a heartbeat and move on.
I don't give a crap. I'm not going to make things worse for myself by trying to defend my ego when I get things wrong..

You try to lift yourself up and grandstand an the back of other peoples errors, rather than on a basis of your own merit.

I'm not interested in your stupid dilemma thinking.
The point I made was about handouts rather than handups.
I just used that 'fish' proverb to do so.

And why don't you address the issue of you wanting to dictate what goes on in my wallet?
Giving to less fortunate should an individual thing.
You want to mandate theft and treason.

The bible say it's wrong to steal.
You can't argue that one, but I'm sure you'll flop around in your quicksand trying.
You whole outlook is built on sand.

Love your neighbor could mean to treat our fellow men the way we desire to be treated, loving for them things we do love for our selves even with out expecting a return.

Uganda Tours, correct! The term first used in the quote meant sacrifice ones self for the other as you yourself would do for yourself.

Uganda Tours,

<<Love your neighbor could mean to treat our fellow men the way we desire to be treated, loving for them things we do love for our selves even with out expecting a return.>>

Exactly.

The Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich Greek Lexicon gives the meaning of agapaw (I love) as: 'human love ... without indication of the person who is the object of love'; 'the genuineness of your love'; 'comfort from your love'; 'for love's sake I appeal'; 'live in love'; it is a fruit of the Spirit.

In biblical passages supporting these views, 'the object of the love is often made plain by the context; in others it is expressly mentioned. Those include God and Christ, to human beings, bestow (give) love, God's relation to the Son, 'the Son of his love', and love-feast (BAG 1957:5-6).

In the context of godly behaviour among fellow Israelites, the Old Testament teaching was: 'Do not nurse hatred in your heart for any of your relatives (or brother). Confront people directly so you will not be held guilty for their sin. Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against a fellow Israelite, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord' (Leviticus 19:17-18).

Jesus Christ taught the same commandment: “The most important one (commandment),” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these” (Mark 12:29-31).

Love for God motivates the Christians to love others in an unconditional way - no strings attached. The issue should not relate to, 'Who is my neighbour?' It is anyone the Lord brings across our paths who needs compassion, mercy and help. True neighbours are those who help anyone - even enemies. See Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 10:30-37.