We know, or should fraud exists we know or should some have been on the dole for ten years
I propose as both fraud ending and as a return for tax payers money, a different system,again
A true work for the dole for every one system
Straight away millions of dollars would be saved, because I have no doubts some receiving it are working as well under another name
Some are collecting it under multiple names
Forcing them to work, real work real effort real results of benefit to the community ends that
Real wages, real opportunity to train for full time jobs, to be regarded as work
A Cultural change to sit down money, of very real benefit to unemployed
BUT it must not become so comfortable some never look for a full time job

Belly,
I can not think of a better lead-in to this than a national Service ! After all, this is a mentality issue.

Indy at last we can come close to agreeing on some thing
I am not a right wing nut calling for pain for those on Social security while out of work
But yes work, of benefit to the community, yes in service to the community, not armed forces
And no! not near every such person is bludgeing on any one
But too many forget in fact far too many are
True, some are settled in to getting paid to sit down, some around here, and right along near coastal mountains, are growing dope stealing and just think we are fools for working
Mow my lawn charge me a cost, investigate me to ensure I am nor leaching of the system
Clean out the river of dead trees, stack the wood to dry, sell or give it to those in true need in winter
A girl leaving school, wanting to be a health worker can give back with training and work in that industry
Bush jobs, not in competition, like those river beds, isolate them for the unemployed make a back packers trail, over night camping for free, around the country as work for the dole work
Bludgers exist, protecting them is betrayal of the very many who need our help
A result would be taking away forever the thought every one is using us or needs testing

http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/the-number-that-doesn-t-get-enough-attention-in-our-national-debate-20190917-p52s7g.html
5 point something percent
Recon about eight percent are very long term, and in the end some are fraudulent
We have seen people arrested with four of five even more, fraudulent accounts that have run for years
So why not fix it?

The problem is that if we implement work-for-the-dole or whatever, it becomes a gigantic money pit.

Suppose you tell all these new workers that they need to dig a bloody big hole here in week one and fill it in in week two .and then repeat. Something simple like that.

Well we'd first need to provide shovels. Then supervisors. Then shovel training. Health and safety courses. Worker's comp. Accident insurance.

Before you know it, it'll cost twice as much as the actual dole to reduce the actual dole. We can't afford to reduce the welfare bill - at least not this way.

Dear Belly,

I certainly don't have all the answers to this
problem.

Just a suggestion that the government could possibly
look at how it dealt with the shortage of labour
in the post-World War II era and the programs that
were initiated then.

Between 1945 and 1965 more than two million migrants
came to Australia. Most were assisted. The Commonwealth
Government paid most of their fare to get to Australia.
In return they had to stay in Australia for at least 2 years
and work whatever jobs the Government gave them.

The first wave of post war migration began with Displaced
Persons (my parents and family were amongst them). These
people fled their countries which had been utterly
destroyed by war and over run by the Soviet Union.

Between 1947 and 1953 the Australian Government assisted
over 170,000 Displaced People.

The 2nd wave of post war immigrants arrived in the 1950s
and 1960s and consisted of those seeking employment and
better living conditions.

These programs were an enormous success.

We consistently hear in the news how rural communities and
farmers need workers. Perhaps the Government could help
out with providing similar programs now, to solve this problem
of labour shortages,
and ending fraud in unemployment benefits?

Just a suggestion.

m haze my thought is first we benefit, see I and you know fraud exists, not just unwilling to work folk true false claims from people working
And multiple ones from true fraudsters
Yes costs are a concern, but we need not mirror some of the current under paid work for the dole waste
Here those supervising took ownership of every thing at jobs end, chain saws heaps of stuff
Yes we need to keep costs down, so? contract out the management,closely supervised but cost driven results driven type of work
Country Doctors, Doctors from racial groups, have believe me have, helped work shy get on disability pensions, and ensured they keep more patients in their surgery
This can work in results in controlling fraud in building a better country in helping get real jobs for workers via training

Here's the solution. But it'll never be implemented.

Do away with the dole and do away with the minimum wage. Everyone who is capable of work will get a job even if the pay is paltry.

Then implement a negative income tax - call it the top-up scheme. Every worker whose wage is less than a given amount - say $40000 adjusted for family circumstances - gets a top-up payment to bring their wage up to that figure. The top-up payment is made each week or fortnight upon the lodgement of a valid pay slip from a recognised employer ie an employer registered in the PAYE system.

Only those doing paid work get the payment. Those who aren't capable of paid work (disabled, etc) go on a different scheme - most are anyway. If you want to live in a place where there isn't paid work, well tough, no job no pay. Move or travel to work.

Zero unemployment within two years. Reduce the Centrelink workforce by half.

But it takes the government out of the issue (other than making the payments and verifying the data) and therefore it won't happen.

mhaze,
You're totally missing the point ! It's not to do with saving money, it's about saving our society !

m haze your plan reintroduces class warfare
That gave birth to communism and indeed Socialism in the past
Nation building need not be so uncaring
Individual has got it right
Seems few want to comment but this at least sets out a plan for the good of the country
SOME do leach of Social security, some think that is ok
It never will be, the acts of Children of unwed parents, to target unfairly receivers EG cashless card drug testing robo debt, can all be stopped forever if we have the guts to try some thing new
EG rebuild local bush fire brigades by letting service there count as work
Make education and training for work a job
Build that national trail make those over night camp sites clean up our rivers the list is endless

Thanks for the thread Belly,

Firstly I'll say that all the unemployed are not some monolithic homogeneous lot, its not a case of like one, like all. The unemployed are as varied in attitude to their circumstance in life as the rest of the community. Those that participate in criminal activity, fraud, theft etc, then the short answer is they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Another group are the permanently lazy, who simply don't want to work, and no matter what system, or inducements you try to offer this mob will always be looking to shirk any form of effort, be it genuine work, or some national boot camp system as proposed by Indy.

The group of the greatest concern are the genuine unemployed, those that find themselves through circumstance wanting a job, but having no job. These are the people who need real and lasting help. The don't need any "Micky Mouse" schemes, or philosophically driven hurtful programs to belt them supposedly into work.People who are genuinely unemployed, and they are as varied in make up as is the rest of the community need to be given the opportunity to have a rewarding lasting, well paid job. Achieving that for those people is the $64 question.

Foxy I hear what you say, but different people, in different circumstances at a different time. Be proud of your parents and family, and all the other post war migrants, who despite all the adversity they had experienced, nothing we can comprehend, managed to overcome and establish a new life for themselves. they were very determined people who didn't allow their tragic circumstances of their past life in Europe get the better of them.

the short answer is they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Paul1405,
I'm with you on that & to make it all work we need to start prosecuting those Govt officers who fail to act in the first place. Then move on to the those Centrelink officers who fail to actually dissect a case & merely opt for the easy & highly immoral way by simply throwing all eggs into one basket. They're the ones who make criminals out of victims & reward the criminals !

Over the past two weeks I have had several interactions with my local Centrelink office and discovered they have really cracked down on identity fraud. Regardless that when I went onto the aged pension I had to provide 100 points of ID, I now have to provide my birth certificate as well.
On top of this, they are double checking all parenting claims and any one who is taking a child into their care, now has to provide a ream of proof of that child living with them, as well as a comprehensive reason why that child is changing carers. Even if the current carer and the new carer go into the office together to transfer the child over, this is refused. The old carer has to stop all payments and the new carer has to go through the whole application process, providing all the details I just listed.
It’s not just dole recipients who are committing fraud. Almost every single mother I know who is claiming a pension, has a man living with her. This is very difficult for Centrelink to monitor as the men use a different address for tax or Centrelink purposes and it’s hard to get proof of residence without setting up surveillance of the house. Most of these women have children to the man, some have several children but still claim single status.

Big Nana Paul Individual, please let me be clear, I am opposed forever to the so called crack downs that harm the innocent
Too am not suggesting that horrible thing done to our first people in far out places
They, without means to travel are given work for the dole hundreds of Ks away
I know how hard some struggle to find work that does not exist, saw people twice kill them selves
Apple tree creek Queensland, a youth then I carried night soil on my shoulder and picked the rubbish bin up on the way out
Willing then and now to do any work I was given
But within a generation my scheme would be seen for what it was meant to be, a less risky way, a more inclusive way, to pay unemployment benefits
Man tourist centers, even take tourists on tours you come up with the jobs, REMEMBER if indys system is to get a run, make it for the young, not military but know 30 to 65 year old,s are unemployed too
Rather than combat as Scomo thrives on why not put such brave new plans in place

Could someone please explain to me how the unemployment rate and participation rate are calculated? I just saw the figures of 5.3% and 66.7% respectively released on ABC News. (Yes I know what some of you are going to say: ABC liars! Communist-Socialist plot! Not true - real figures are minus 10% and minus 100% as a result of LNP policy, etc, etc.).

This post is about frauds I know of, my own family, too long ago to offend , helped bring up 5 kids, their grand mum, my mum spoiled them
Eldest, on hearing he had to prove he was looking for a job screamed! thats not fair!
Sydney suburb, once lived there for a while, but long after it is a conclave for one race, local Doctor has given a lot help to get on the disability pension, some never worked a single day after coming here twenty years ago
35 year old near here, got him a job, lasted two days , said it interfered with his life style that was his ONLY JOB EVER
Family, very big one, known as the we don't eat much mob, because they arrive en mass at meal times
All on social welfare all boys have served time but never worked
My honest thought is we can and must do better flogging the lot because of the mentioned failures is wrong

The unemployed are stigmatised by stereotyping them Belly. As with politicians, all politicians are budging criminals. It's how it works.

Dan

Individual,

"It's not to do with saving money, it's about saving our society !"

Well my plan doesn't save money except in regards to no longer paying people who aren't genuinely unemployed, and isn't about saving money.

I don't know what you mean by "saving our society" and how my plan doesn't advance that.

Belly,

"m haze your plan reintroduces class warfare"

I suspect that's just something you say when you don't want to address an issue...but please explain HOW it causes class warfare.

m haze if you want respect give it!
I say what I think, and I think you do not care if we continue to create second class people leading second class lives
COSTS think about the rewards
think about almost ending welfare fraud forever in this area
Too think about such an end to the need to criminalize unemployed people as a vote winner
Remember until the 1970, or 1980,s we pork barreled, put the unemployed to work, including a good scheme in Queensland to help farmers in bad times by employing them
Think out side the bitter not my mob stuff
m haze if we all think like you NO PROGRESS will ever be possible

"m haze your plan reintroduces class warfare"
We actually need class warfare these days, with the class of drug abusers & deliberate unemployed !

Indy always trying to kick the public service can, you are paranoid about them. Obviously you were dismissed from the PS for incompetence! Now you have an axe to grind.

"prosecuting those Govt officers who fail to act in the first place. Then move on to the those Centrelink officers who fail to actually dissect a case & merely opt for the easy & highly immoral way by simply throwing all eggs into one basket."

Yes, and any copper who fails to obtain a conviction after making an arrest, should serve the time in the place of the criminal who got away.

Paul1405,
Darwin Award contender for 2019.

Indy, other than staggering down to Centrelink, after a couple of sherbets in gods waiting room on the way, just to complain about your welfare payment being late, what experience of the public service do you actually have? NONE!

Indy surfing the threads this morning some I found no reason to contribute to
Saw here too, a Conservatism that is blind to anything other than its own biases
You started out agreeing with this threads general direction, but soon reverted to they are all bludgers
Such conservatism always, stands in the way of true change
And we must think out side the box and look for different and better ways, to deliver so very much
I remain convinced sit down money is not good for any one

Paul1405,
I was a Public servant hence my constant drawing attention to the antics I have witnessed from fellow PS. Your rhetoric identifies you as one of those who is getting paid for being pointless !
Just because 25-30% of an organisation do a good job doesn't make the rest a viable force except to boost Labor votes !

Indy, from my years of experience it is usually the biggest dill in the organisation that thinks everyone else are the biggest dills. were you dismissed due to incompetence?

Belly wrote :" I think you do not care if we continue to create second class people leading second class lives"

Oh I get it now. You simply didn't understand the proposal.

Because under my proposal the only people worse off than now would be those who weren't really unemployed or were unemployed but had no desire to actually work.

The genuinely unemployed would end up with both a job and either the same amount as they are currently getting from their unemployment benefits or, in most cases, somewhat more.

So no class warfare...just helping the underclass to start moving upwards.

Unfortunately for those people, too many others aren't really interested in mechanisms to help them up, but really just want to use them as totems to denigrate society. Are you one of those Belly? Or do you sincerely want to see other proposals that would help the underclass?

mhaze we should each take a look at the others thoughts, not who they vote for
Then judge what we see
I see in you a could not truly care less approach to the subject
My idea is just my view, but some future government will WILL, introduce some thing like it
Nothing is ever perfect, nothing remains the same forever
In the thread we mentioned that sleazy disability pensioner
Now maybe the time to widen my claim, he could and in my view should, do some type of work
Doctors do! at least in some parts of this country, help the work shy get disability pensions
It provides them with assured government income, looking after them
FRAUD needs stamping out
Just being forced to attend, and carry out, work, will unmask hundreds, in my view thousands who should not be getting it
No need exists to flog the unemployed who truly want a job
But in two generations after such a scheme came about people would see the very real benefits

Right now, in rural and city's bosses find people on welfare, employ them at below award cash in hand wages
Once employed they know the boss can report them, for fraud
Fair minded bosses have to compete with such bosses
Ending that is one out come of fairness in work for the dole
In one case only, do I think existing work could or should be done by unemployed, others may exist
But assisting drought affected farmers or rebuilding after bush fires fences and such can result in a return for welfare

Again Belly, you fail to comprehend the proposal...

"No need exists to flog the unemployed who truly want a job"

The proposal doesn't "flog the unemployed who truly want a job". It gives them MORE money AND a job.

If you don't want to understand that, not much more need be said.

mhaze
Did you not call for cuts to the basic wage?
Did you infer some on the dole [more than some me thinks] are low life
Mate try to consider others views with some reality involved
The reason for the thread but only in part is to negate the need for putting the boot in to those we talk of
Right now even government branches are calling for a rise, not a fall, in social security and wages to get the economy moving

"Did you not call for cuts to the basic wage?"

No

"Did you infer some on the dole [more than some me thinks] are low life"

No

"The reason for the thread but only in part is to negate the need for putting the boot in to those we talk of"

No boots...just a leg up.

"Right now even government branches are calling for a rise, not a fall, in social security and wages to get the economy moving"

Me too. My proposal shows how to increase the income of the unemployed by increasing government payments too them.

But its clear Belly that you are so tangled up in your ideology and 1970s thinking that you haven't got a hope of understanding what these new ideas are saying.

Why not just try to understand that a policy that gives those looking for work a job AND an increase in net income is worth a second thought.

I must have been pretty incompetent for them to still call me for ideas & solutions, two years after retiring !

http://www.9news.com.au/national/a-current-affair-welfare-fraud-government-crackdown-online-scams/18043d4b-3245-49bd-8f54-3be1c9649ec7
Horrific? failure of the systems? both but some defend the idea any fraud takes place
Welfare reform must come, be not a punishment but a true over view of who should and should not get it

Belly,
I agree, those who rot the system however must at least be made to repay any money received under false pretence. We should also fine those who cause the loopholes after all, they're employed to keep a lid on the show & rewarded handsomely yet they don't do their job !
There must be a deterrent otherwise they'll always exploit the loopholes. We must close the loopholes. A re-think is long overdue !

individual yes agree but like getting blood out of a stone with many
And if we do nothing other things begin to take place
For instance, the link said we have ,more fraud in over all social welfare than any other country
You I, and many know, our boat people include folk coming for a share of that
IF we did do some thing like this, accountability would be first benefit
In time, after we ironed out the faults, we could lead the world in this area not tail off behind
Sure there will be problems, but worth the chance
IF we set out to build that national path/road for back packers, bikes horses foot traffic and motor car access, it could be first job for youth, including training

Indy be honest, you're are not all that interested in punishing the offenders, but rather with your fixation of public service bashing you see an opportunity to attack people who more than often are simply doing their job.
Of course any PS who involves themselves in criminal activity should be prosecuted like any other. When you say "We should also fine those who cause (the) loopholes", how ridiculous, the law is the responsibility of politicians, not public servants. The so called loopholes are often cases of fraud and theft.

BTW, you have the opportunity to vote for those you perceive as being of your liking at election time.

That election Paul may not be three years away
Government is not going to prime the pumps and unemployment will rise
The financial crisis we pretend is not coming is here
Our personal debt has never been higher
In such crisis the heat comes of the unemployed and on to government
Betting on an early election
Indy, not sure how to handle your obsession with all things public service
But do know not every one of them is useless

politicians, not public servants
Paul1404,
Politicians ARE public servants too but mostly in a figure head capacity.
Many senior bureaucrats are deliberately leaving loopholes so they can exploit them. Many Public Servants simply go along with what benefits them & to a lesser extent, the Public.
It sounds ok when people say "not all public servants are guilty of not really doing their job" but when you're looking at 6 out of 10 it does look concerning. I'm using those figures from my own observations, others will disagree but I wouldn't expect any different from them !
Included in those figures is the usefulness factor of many PS. There's even a thread here at present re the Robodebt fiasco.

Well we have had our run, not sure it is worth continuing
But indy, think with me on this, if our politicians are the problem what does it say about voters who put them there?

what does it say about voters who put them there?
belly,
It tells me that the voters aren't any better than the politicians !

The biggest fraud is negative gearing ! Will they consider ending that ?

Hey individual,
The biggest fraud is negative gearing ! Will they consider ending that ?

Doubtful.
To much negative flow on effect to the economy.
Housing stops, results in jobs stop, results in economy grinding to a halt.

After the housing bubble bursts indy they may well stop helping the investors that bought the burst about
By then however we will be well in to the recession that stops just about anything

To much negative flow on effect to the economy.
Armchair Critic,
I doubt that very much for the simple reason that there are just too many people for whom materialism is the Holy Grail & greed is their ride. They WILL ALWAYS find a way to make more than the next bloke.
What removing NG will do is to stimulate the blue collar & retiree economy where it's needed most, away from cities ! There's absolutely nothing to fear from doing away with NG & move towards a Flat tax. On the contrary, it'd make us the envy of the rest of the World & they'd follow suit & I can actually see it catch on globally. It'd also curb pollution. Don't listen to filthy rich scaremongers, they already have more than enough.

One possibility is a tax applied to unearned income, say 20%, on rents, inheritance, bank interest, pensions etc. Income where the recipient makes no positive contribution to earning that income.

Paul1405,
Well said !

Tax reform must be still in Labors to do list
So too health and education
We need better always in all things
First task? convincing voters the Coalitions constant fear and loathing as its policy must end'
We are stuck in calm waters going no place as Scomo has worked out elections are won by fear loathing and lies

So too health and education
Belly,
Labor has all but ruined Health & Education so how do you expect them to fix it ?

Paul,

There is already a tax on such income, it's called income tax. I.e. a tax on total income, less expenses incurred in earning that income.

Joe

Individual I am grateful for you mate, because you highlight in almost every post why Labor must not let the silly side of politics rule us
We right now, must take the next step to the center voters world wide are doing it
And no other way to replace the lost right with more caring government exist than to follow the voters

Labor must not let the silly side of politics rule us
Belly,
There's only one silly side & they're not in power thank God, because they've caused so much of the unemployment fraud ! In fact, most of the problems in Australian society are of Labor's making.