why not, do we gain anything by taking a side and not achieving much
cashless dole card, why not give [and expect] every one a short term job
refugees why not get all sides of politics together and set out a new law, do away with offshore detention, but make numbers firm, return boat arrivals
why not stop bleeding our cash and solve the problem
trying to justify the costs of offshore detention, like the side saying let them in, can not go on forever
we can, if we try, find a middle way

Dear Belly,

Well said. We should try to find a middle way.
People are getting so dis-appointed in our
constant bickering be it in politics or elsewhere.
Look at "Question-Time" in our Parliament.
They could do better in providing answers and trying
to explain things instead of the constant "Dorothy
Dixer" approaches, fighting and sloganeering.

Belly: trying to justify the costs of offshore detention, like the side saying let them in, can not go on forever.

This is one cost that needs to stop immediately. These people have been paid to leave & they are still there.

The UNCHR condemns Australia's Offshore Detention Centres as not being up to Standard but are a way ahead of anything the UN provides Refugees they look after.

The UNCHR won't support the people in the Detention Centres as they recognize that they are Economic Refugees, as such, they do not qualify as per the UNCHR Charter Guidelines. Also that they have crossed many Borders to get to Indonesia, also specifically no allowed by the UNCHR Charter Guidelines.

They must be given 30 days notice to leave the Detention Centres & go to any place that is willing to except them, except Australia, or be forcibly returned to their own Country.

It seems like these people, who say they are in danger if they return, have no qualms about returning once they are given residence in Australia. This, too, is against the UNCHR Charter Guidelines.

Belly: why not get all sides of politics together and set out a new law,

You will never get the Labor Party to agree with the Coalition on anything because if a Bill is passed, then that makes the Coalition look good in the eyes of the people, & visa versa. The people might be inclined to vote for who ever gets Bills Passed.

Belly: cashless dole card,

Ever notice the people who are "complaining" most about the Cashless Debit Card are covered in Tattoos, do Drugs, drink a lot, drive a hotted up V8 & do burn-outs, slides & street racing. One wonders how they can afford this on the Dole or what-ever money they get.

Strange that, Ay?

Belly,
I agree but how can we get those who disagree for the sake of disageeing to agree ?

Dear individual,

You asked 'I agree but how can we get those who disagree for the sake of disagreeing to agree?'

Answer is quite simple, change your name from individual to everybody.

I suppose the international position of a refugee is that, once the cause of their fleeing their own country (civil war, ethnic cleansing, victimisation, etc., etc.) has been removed, i.e. when it is safe for them to return, then they are obliged to do so if asked by their host country. Of course, in the event of very long periods in abeyance, they could be encouraged to take out citizenship in their host country.

But it seems anomalous that a 'refugee' should go to and from his/her original country without fear of arrest or worse. In that sort of scenario, in what way is he/she a refugee ?

Another unanimously-unanswered question is: given our current annual refugee quota of 19,500 or so,

* are people currently in off-shore detention, and those on the seas who slip through in the future, perceived as part of the annual quota; or

* are they add-ons to the annual quota ?

I can certainly understand and support emergency intakes, such as Yazidi from Syria, or Rohingya from Burma (i.e. the Arakanese, who fought and died on our side during the War, against the Japs, and against the Buddhists who sided with the Japs). I was talking to a lovely African lady on the bus, very serene, but who had spent eighteen years in a jungle refugee camp in west Africa. Eighteen years.

Sixty eight million people are currently displaced or in camps like that. You know, the people out of sight of our compassion and virtue ?

But people coming from a country without civil wars, or ethnic cleansing, or genocide ? Perhaps they can apply as immigrants.

Joe

"we can, if we try, find a middle way"

I agree. Everyone should just agree with me. In fact if everyone just agreed with my middle way then everything would be just super-duper.

But I suspect that Belly thinks that if everyone just agreed with his middle way then everything would be just fine.

And therein lies the problem. There is no agreement as to where the middle way is.

Diversity is our strength...as long as we all think the same. </sarc>

it is no easy thing for me to say, but enough voters demand boat people both stop coming and are never settled here
Too [sorry but remain convinced] war is only one reason they come, financial reason drives many
And fact is their country's are over populated eg can not produce enough food water land for a descent life
Worse [good caps lock is working]the western world is heading in a similar direction to us
Soon refugees will be turned back always, see reason foe Brexet
So while other subjects will get a run here why not reconsider the Malaysian solution, world wide
Pay another country to let us, maybe the worlds refugees there
Take our refugee intake from there but not those who came here, and got sent within days to that country
Know after several thousand arrived there, wasted their money, the flow would stop
As it would have under the Malaysian solution
Too ending the refugee flow/Criminal transporting, would let us give more aid helping make a better life
Continued

As truth remains truth those kind hearts [some times just idiot trouble makers] who tell offshore detainees to sit tight the government will give in ignore truth
They inflict as much pain on them as any one
Voters drive this issue
Yes it hurts knowing some of them would be great here
But in the end we humans are about to be swamped with something every bit as controversial as climate change
Over population
And that is starting now for parts of the world
Do we gain anything by transferring the problem from other country's to here
A middle path can work, in this case must, why not try it

Jb said;
or be forcibly returned to their own Country.

And therein is the rub. They threw their passports away and deny their
nationality. Their countries won't accept them undocumented.
I would put them on a military aircraft land on a runway in their
country and push out, and take off quickly.
The governments language experts know where they are from as they even
have regional Arabic accents.

Bazz quite true and a difficulty we can over come
The Malaysian solution, suggested as a world wide solution
Part of doing that deal could involve legislation in both country's, to house those types too in the country that agrees to take them
That, a hopeless life behind wires, would see no more passports thrown away
PS
World wide agreement life in prison for people smugglers

Hi Belly,

Politics is the art of the possible, the notion of unilateral agreement by all on all issues is unrealistic in a democracy. On the question of refugees there are many points of contention, offshore processing just being one. Look at the opinions of the conservative and far right posters on this forum on the subject, it would be impossible for me to agree with any of their vitriol when it comes to refugees.
What I will say is no politician, from all sides of politics, over the decade can honestly say they have handled the issue of refugees all that well.

Hey Belly,

"why not stop bleeding our cash and solve the problem"
Maybe it's because bleeding our cash and not solving problems IS the solution.
Cloward and Piven.

Why not give [and expect] every one a short term job?
I tried to put forward this solution some time back.
- But it falls into the category of solving problems, therefore its a big no-no.

Refugees a harsh subject but one we must confront
Remember, tell me I am wrong, voters determine our policy's here
Face it Rudd got it wrong, voters said so
Fact is no party opening our borders will ever govern this country
And again, face it,we are being cruel to offshore detainees
Very cruel
They are like a neon sign, warning smugglers/refugees/financial migrants, do not come this way
Paul you must twist and turn trying to understand how an ALP stall wart, an ex true Socialist can utter these words
Tell you why,only a centrist party can ever remove the right wing Conservative one we now have, and the world continues to elect
A party moving with the voters, not proudly marching away from them and over a lemming like cliff
IF we bring every offshore detainee here we will see thousands, maybe a hundred thousand come in the year after
PS yes we continue to take refugees, migrants too, but we know who and what they are, this country needs them to sustain growth until we see even that can not be forever

OK I said other types of compromise would get a run so here go,s
Why not take the combative part out of do we need a national integrity entity
And have one, with automatic intervention [with no need for anyone to interfere] to investigate every politician a claim is made against
EG Lue and the nsw minister being investigated after our state leader ordered it
Why thrash and bash around with unconfirmed charges if we can see the truth

voters determine our policy's here
Belly,
No, they're merely reacting to what doesn't suit them ! The average voter doesn't give a damn about the next bloke. That's what we need to address. People need to become more caring & responsible. We had people join the Ratepayers Assoc. until it was realised all they wanted was for the Assoc. to hire Lawyers on their behalf, in a word they wanted free help & when they didn't get they declared the Assoc. useless. They were advised on what steps to take & some of the actions involved paying for legal advise. That's not what they signed up for & paid $10 they reckoned. ALP & LNP & ON supporters all of them. That's what needs to change & the only way to achieve that is via National Service ! Re-establish a sense of belonging & responsibility !

individual in fact your first line confirms my point
Voters vote, and they refuse to vote for any party that would open the door
Yes voters are not bothering to be informed
Some waste their vote , one nation for instance
Others vote greens, who only have power in the senate, because not enough vote for them in the lower house
But trust me, world wide [no matter what the UN wants, voters are confirming they do not want one world forced on them]
Aid and real efforts to end wars is the answer

Aid and real efforts to end wars is the answer
Belly,
I agree ! However, Aid must be deserved & the effort that's needed is birth control. Idealism has only ever fed & kept a handful of hangers-on. Just look at that massive sponge that is the UN.
Look where Australian aid has gotten PNG ? Look at several African countries where aid has never filtered through to the needy ? I see on TV that 18,000 children die every day. How can that be explained ?
This thread's title is Compromise yet, compromise is frowned upon by those who perpetually push their idealist agenda. Why ? Because birth control is that Compromise !
You must read "Letter to the women of the World" by Prof. Dr. Hans Hass.

Individual

"Letter to the women of the World" by Prof. Dr. Hans Hass.

And that published in "dive" magazine. No surprise really, For a letter written by a marine biologist.

It's another lonely call from a scientist who, having invested his life in ocean research, issues the clarion call of catastrophe the ocean is, in his final days. It's a lonely voice, but he is not alone.

During the obsessive bid to plunder the globe for profit, the giant that Capitalism is, has dismantled communities and the community morality and ethics, and replaced them with ideology, enforced with substitutes of authoritarianism and socialism and enabled rampant and unregulated population growth globally. Growth is its Bible.

In the words of Gough, nothing will save the Governor General; and you can bet, nothing will save the human race from fruits of its own greed and blindness.

Our Capitilist Governments, are locked into population growth. In unison on the deal.
Our communities sense the raw deal it is, but political systems are an iron fist of refusal to budge on the raw deal it is.

Refugees are an insignificant discomfort, compared to four hundred thousand immigrants year on year, entering into a country already reeling from the effects of overpopulation in the bad times.

Dan

a scientist who, having invested his life in ocean research,
diver dan,
Well, was obviously more of a diver than you ;-). His main interest was human behaviour.
No matter what, no reasonably sensible person can say he was wrong.
ALL our problems derive from greed which is enhanced by more & more people vying for the spoils.

Diver Dan maybe we do not need to be scientists
Drove down to the states central coast today [The entrance] spent a lot of time there in first half of my life
Visited Canton Beach, many my age can recall taking large garbage tin of prawns there
Stinking mud now
Fishing dead, sea polluted and lakes edges covered in rubbish
Market day, two different markets so the day was not lost, but it was sad

The stupidity of many educated is a compromise in itself, for us !

Individual, old mate consider this, you seem to think you are always right, and have the ability to tell if others are far from it
Now if we all thought and acted a like what kind of world would we have
A group exists insisting the world is flat
Another, seen here,is willing to harm the under dog to have a world interested only in profit
Just maybe open thought, the ability to think differently, is our best hope

OK it is not going any place this thread
I however remain convinced we all need compromise
So much junk comes from my way or no way thoughts
Politics has become one huge question time war, unrelated to truth or better out comes
Nation building can come if both sides agree to some compromise
Say both sides start right now a national plan to send water inland and build dams as pumping stations to do it in stages
First thing is both sides agreeing it is the right way not the ugly current water war based on one river system

Belly: you seem to think you are always right (Indy)

Well..., if you're right you're right. Ay. A Compromise in such a case means the person who "IS" right has to say that they are partly wrong, which is wrong. The Party that is wrong has to admit that they are also partly wrong. Therefore the final decision ends up being wrong.

The person who was right is not really happy with the decision because they know that the Decision is wrong. The person who was wrong is not really happy with the decision because thy had to admit that they were wrong.

The Consensus of the final Decision hasn't really pleased anybody or made anybody happy. Therefore the Compromise is a False premise & due to fail.

Can you imagine a Consensus between two groups. One says the World is Flat & one says it's a Sphere. Just what would a Compromise look like. A Semi-flat Football. So now they have to announce to the World that the Scientists all agree that; You can fall off the edge & that the World is held up by an Elephant standing on the back of a Turtle & it's Turtles all the way down. ;-) & that makes everybody happy. Ay.

Belly: the ability to think differently, is our best hope.

Yep, I can see that. Ay.

Belly: Say both sides start right now a national plan to send water inland and build dams as pumping stations to do it in stages
First thing is both sides agreeing it is the right way not the ugly current water war based on one river system.
Cont

Cont.
I not long ago got a Facebook form the "Draft North Queensland Plan." I read through the many, many 10's of pretty Pages & learnt nothing.

I sent them an email & asked if they were going to put the Top on the Burdekin Dam. & if the Coal Fired Power Station at Abbotts Point was included in the Plan.

The reply I got was, "Please explain what, "put the top on the Burdekin Dam" means." There was nothing about the Power Station at Abbotts Point.

Some background Information here.

When the Burdekin Dam was built it was a "Compromise." The Dam was built 10 Meters Short. the 10 meters was to be built at a later date to provide storage for the future Hydro Electricity Station. All the Space & Building Blocks were put in place & all that was required was to install the Machinery. However when the ALP took over from Joe the first thing they did was to fill that space with Concrete & cancel putting the top on the Dam. That's the Dam part.

Abbotts Point: When Abbots Point was first Muted to be a Coal Port an agreement was reached that a Coal Fired Power Station was to be built at Abbots Point to supply Electricity to North Queensland. That was the clincher for the Deal. Ok, The Jetty was built. the Deepest Port in Australia. But, then the ALP came into power & the Power Station was conveniently forgotten about.

As was the Gas Pipeline from New Guinea. I unloaded the Pipes for that Project & now they lie rusting & abandoned in the grass just outside of Townsville & Cairns.

It have been almost 2 weeks & I have not received a reply to my explanation. That tells me a lot about the Plan & the people that are running it. Ay

Jay B ok but leave the biases out and tell me, should we like Israelis try to green the desert
Should again, take on a snowy mountains type project to try, try being the right word, to drought proof some parts of this country
With towns as big as Dubbo to run out of water why wait?
Every side has thought about it, no one yet tried
Why

Jay B ok but leave the biases out
Belly,
Jayb stated facts, nothing biased about that ! If anyone here is permanently biased it's you.

Belly: ok but leave the biases out and tell me,

What Bias?

Belly: Should again, take on a snowy mountains type project to try, try being the right word, to drought proof some parts of this country.

Too bloody right we should. We'd have the money too if we'd stop sending it overseas in the form of the Jizya Tax (Aid) to Countries that spend all their money on their Armed Forces &, or, build a new Capital.

Indy: Jayb stated facts, nothing biased about that ! If anyone here is permanently biased it's you.

Thanks mate.

Jay B my reference was not to you being biased, indy gets it wrong often
My thoughts are enforced in the thread about the Liberal lady currently in the news
People are defending her just because she is a Liberal
Yes we agree find new ways rather than offshore detention to forever stop the boats ,spend the billions on STARTING a one hundred year project to get water inland
Build the nation, food one day, will be our biggest export

Belly: ,spend the billions on STARTING a one hundred year project to get water inland

Just think the Chinese would have the entire Project finished in a year. Everyone on the Dole would be given a Wheelbarrow & it would be a 10% of the cost. Any whinging from the CFEMU & they'd be in the Nick quick smart. :-)

Jayb,
Good idea in principle but reality shows that a Leftist drug abusing work shirker hasn't got enough balance in the first place to pilot something as complicated as a wheel barrow.
Plus, how'd you get the Progressives on board with getting snowflakes to labour in the Sun even though that'd sweat the stupidity out of them.

Jay B this site would not let me report of my dislike for the CFMMEU
Or the dirty unhinged thugs and mugs workplace warfare they started against me
Because I was an official of another union
Too that their membership left and became mine, no respect here for the thugs and mugs,an enemy of the whole trade union movement
Lets start, let every year FOREVER be the year another part of the needed system opens
My union would be glad to be there hand in hand, every mass meeting of bush construction workers from the 1980,s called for it, voted for it at the end
We are lead by cash and carry politicians, no statesmen or women in sight not passion to build our country

We are lead by cash and carry politicians .........
Belly,
......who are voted in by cash & carry voters !

Kettles calling the pots black indeed !

indy first how do you devalue my opinion but grant your own free passage?
Is there any chance yours may not be shared by many
In fact you try blaming our current status on the Prime Minister we got in 1972, Whitlam
If true surely every one after failed us by not fixing his mistakes

Is there any chance yours may not be shared by many
Belly,
I KNOW it's not ! I most definitely don't de-value your opinion in this. you're right about the Whitlam effect, it's haunting us now several decades later. That is the insidious nature of Politics. The impact is not immediate, it turns into a gradual long-term legacy. Those who have thus far been unsuccessful to rectify the impact of the Whitlam era have not really failed, their efforts are still & at every turn sabotaged by those with the same mentality as the the crowd in 1972.
You simply can not undo 50 years of damage in 20 years particularly if it is a global damage sabotage by an idealist movement.

Thanks indy, over 40 years ago in fact
But your words in the end make mine look better
That post about drugs and such, inferring a whole class of leftist fools entrenches the view you are far from Representative of any known group

inferring a whole class of leftist fools entrenches the view
Belly,
I'm afraid I have to say that yes, the greater majority of drug abusers are in fact Leftists & many of them are fools ! The proof is that if they weren't fools they wouldn't be Leftists !

Stand out side a voting booth indy, in any near coastal hill country
They walk by insulting you if you are handing our Labor, greens do no bother manning booths
Taking the Nationals forms
You live in a different world, just as the druggy s do

Belly,
Cheers for proving me right !

They walk by insulting you if you are handing our Labor,
Belly,
Ever wondered why ?

Know/knew why indy
But you would not understand
See Labor, until now, has dipped its hat to minority's [greens] and hunted its own away too often
Too the 20 percent swing, in NSW Hunter Valley safe seat, against us WARNED we do not consider what some voters think
A move is required, to the center away from even our own left
We have the right leader, we must let him catch his breath, his task is clear, and he will get the job done

We have the right leader
Belly,
You mean your party has. Australia already has a reasonable one right now !

I do you know indy, feel sorry for you that is
Your barbed one line insults are damning, is it the best you can do
Scomo finds his mate in trouble, and he is too with China
We need a few statesmen, sadly right now we do not know if they exist any more