Henry,

Yes, I agree, how the rights of Muslim women in Australia are ignored, is truly appalling. I don't expect that all that many feminists will bother about it, since all cultures are equal in their universe, with 'other' cultural practices being so quaint and charming, and therefore any criticism of the behaviour of Muslim men is obviously Islamophobic.

I'm sure that not all Muslim men behave in deplorable ways, not by any means, but a cursory run-through of the Koran suggests that much deplorable (in our view) behaviour is urged on all Muslims. Luckily, many Muslim men are not particularly observant, probably no more than amongst other religious populations, and many Muslim men may actually be deeply in love with their spouses. They may actually support the rights available to Muslim women under formal Australian law (if not, as you point out, actual practice).

So apart from a few supportive husbands, Muslim women may be on their own when it comes to exerting their rights under Australian law. Their liberation will owe nothing to Australian feminists, their sisters, who have much more important things to complain about, such as the low attention given over to homosexual etc. issues. How on earth feminist and homosexual issues became so ridiculously entangled is beyond me, but I certainly wish Muslim women well in their long, lonely struggle.

Joe

Foxy,
Of course, you know I am a strong advocate of anti FGM. I cannot think of anything more offensive.

Henry,

There's people I know who think that male
circumcision is offensive. Yet for some
religions its par for the course, for
others it's health reasons. It's customary
practice in the US.

Foxy,

To compare male circumcision and female genital MUTILATION is inappropriate, to put it mildly: female mutilation cuts out the tissue which provides any sexual stimulation, quite deliberately, so that women cannot experience any pleasure at all - that's the point. Male circumcision has no such effect. They are not remotely comparable.

If anything (and of course it's impossible to know, since few grown men would have been both uncircumcised AND at some later point, circumcised) it's possible that circumcision enhances sexual pleasure. Clearly, the whole point of female mutilation is to remove any sexual desire or pleasure, and minimise the possibility that a woman might 'stray' (since, as we know, all women are basically sluts, according to backward perceptions). It's a form of imprisonment or even slavery, in that sense.

I'm surprised that you can - forgive me if I've misunderstood - seem to equate the two.

Joe

Foxy,
I mentioned FGM simply to illustrate my objection to abuse of females and I knew you are aware of my stance on FGM. I am aware that people other than Islam practice FGM and also of underage marriage.

The point is that I think we should be far more consistent with the way we apply our laws. For example, the states will not collect data from maternity and other hospitals because I think they are fearful of it showing how much FGM is actually occurring and they are reluctant to gather information on under age marriage. They do not wish to know these things.

While I was speaking with tongue-in-cheek when I said about it being muslim womens own fault, I do wonder at times how a muslim woman can remain muslim after seeing and experiencing the freedoms western women enjoy and how western women can feel a need to convert to Islam. I can see advantages for men but none for women.

Joe,

I actually wasn't comparing FGM with male
circumsicion. I was stating that I
knew people who objected to male circumsicion
as strongly as we object to FGM.
My apologies for not making that clearer
for you.

Of course FGM is a horrific practice causing
and may cause severe pain, bleeding, diffculty
in passing urine, infections, long term scars,
HIV infection, cysts, abscesses, genital ulcers
and other complications.

Reasons for having it done as cited in women's
surveys were - social acceptance, religion,
hygiene, preservation of virginity,
marriageability, and the enhancement of male
sexual pleasure.

UNICEF predicts that there's no reduction in the
practice and that the number sill grow (3.6
million in 2013) to 6.6 million in 2050.

Which is scary.