Past week, nearly every week has been one of home invasions and bashing of elderly homeowners
And after arrest you can be forgiven if you think the people arrested are the victims not the other way around
Why are the gutless younger people targeting the aged
Why are we not protecting our elderly
Maybe if we consider recent court out comes we will start to think about these questions

The elderly (I'm one) are not attacked as much as other age groups because we don't go out at night getting pissed. It seems that we are most at risk in nursing homes.

As for the lack of proper penalties, that complaint extends to all crimes and misdemeanors that come before our pathetic, cowardly judiciary.

The separation of government and judiciary has gone too far. Governments should be able to remove judges and magistrates who continually fail to hand down appropriate sentences.

We could allow the elderly to possess the means of defence within their own homes.

Dear Belly,

The reasons for these violent crimes could be
results from social disasters involving
broken families, drug abuse, poor education,
and unemployment - that has affected a small
segment of our youth in our poorer suburbs.

These people may possibly feel that even if they're
arrested they're not losing much. They don't see
a reason to adopt society's values, for society
offers them nothing. They get no nearer to affluence
or success than what they see on their TV sets and
therefore self-hate erupts against those around them.
The elderly are easy targets.

Training, education, community involvement, could go
a long way in saving some of these kids. Pointing them
into a different direction. Also sending them into the
army - may give them some discipline and purpose.
Whereas - giving them harsh jail
sentences is only a short-term solution. It may also make
things worse by turning them into hardened criminals.

As for elderly abuse in nursing homes. That needs
investigation by a Royal Commission. It needs to be nipped
in the bud and not tolerated. Strict legislation and
protections need to be put in place - especially in the
hiring of adequate, experienced, and qualified staff.
And staff numbers per patient ratios. If staff shortages
are inadequate to cope with patients and the work load -
abuse will and does occur.

cont'd ...

Sorry the last sentence should read - if staff numbers
are inadequate...

Foxy let me tell you a secret, while assisting youth in trouble, a young man in his mid twenties told me this
Quote, in prison and out, some of us invent bad childhoods and upbringing, it has become both a defense and excuse, for our failures
He by the way had as it turned out no intention of changing his ways
ttbn my thoughts when posting this,while aware thousands of ATM assaults take place every years was home invasion
A couple in bed early morning, two youths kicked the door in,ran up the stairs and held a knife at the wifes throat
Forcing the husband to open a safe
Fear,it haunts even some aged folk who have never been victims
And for some who have, ends normality in their lives forever
I have a question, for those who wish to answer
Those people from broken homes broken lives who inflict this fear,
We, most, want to consider why they commit such crimes
Are we any less interested in the fear and dread of their victims,? if so why, who is more important.

Is Mise,

As police are continually advising, weapons can taken be by intruders and turned against us. Good locks and personal alarms are a better idea.

Dear Belly,

We need to try several methods to solve the
problem. Some will fail others may work.
But just sticking with punishment has proven
not to be the answer. In the US - where the
problems with blacks were huge - they have
found that community involvement and grassroot
action has succeeded in many areas - especially
in places like Harlem. Getting involved in sport,
and other community activities has helped.

The best method to solve this problem is to lock the sods up, & do it for a very long time. How about chain gangs in remote northern national parks, clearing rubber vine & prickly acacia. A couple of years should make them decide that crime doesn't pay.

This of course should be followed by at least another year on a metropolitan chain gang, cleaning up the roadsides. I doubt anything would give the young hood pause before their next "job".

Second offences should attract at least 5 years, followed by 10 years for a third offence. Not only would our national parks improve, but if locked up long enough the sods will be too old to commit offences if let out again.

Anything like psychologists & physiatrists involvement must be eliminated. These young hoods are far to smart for these pretend medicos.

It is totally obvious these hoods don't want help, just our valuables, & it is about time for some really tough love.

Hi there BELLY...

Crimes occasioned against the elderly, or the very young are quite common and have been around for years regrettably. Best way to explain them, they're crimes of 'opportunity' and that of 'ease.' Perpetrators generally have little difficulty overpowering older or very young citizens, by threatening to use violence. Neither demographic are capable of mounting any real defence to an assault. Therefore, they're overwhelmed with consummate ease. And the Psycho's among the perpetrators, delight in instilling even further terror among them, knowing there's little likelihood of any meaningful reprisal.

Police in most States provides advisory service, to aid older people to reside safely in their own homes. I should also point out - most of us have Content Insurance Policies.

* 'Life is precious' * Where everything else, is either covered by Insurance or it doesn't matter!

ttbn,

"As police are continually advising, weapons can taken be by intruders and turned against us. Good locks and personal alarms are a better idea."

Good locks are only as strong as the door that they are on; personal alarms mean nought as they can be taken from the victim and rendered inert.

A 12 gauge shotgun is much better especially if used as the intruders are bashing in the front/any door.

It's a gutless society that denies its citizens the means of self-defence.

Is Mise,

If you want a shoot out, go for for it. I'll rely on caution, alert awareness and common sense.

ttbn,

If your door is being bashed in, what would you do?

G,day O sung wo, found your post is close to my thoughts
You will be aware of the scruffy young men turning up in court looking like a bank manager
I Had a roll in that process, wanting to help, I talked to and even transported some, to a place they could hear others stories at
And believe me want better outcomes for them, deeply understand many are victims of a poor upbringing
However what are we to think of the young women [ice?] knocking over old ladies at ATMs?
And despite the shoot em up type seen here how will a frail 80 year old victim shoot? will that person one day kill a visitor out of mistaken fear
And the relatives standing over their elders at home
YES some have awful lives ICE destroys some, but how can we fix even that if we condemn prison before the perpetrator even gets to court
Protecting the old, to at least the level some want to do so for the criminal makes sense to me

Belly,

"And despite the shoot em up type seen here how will a frail 80 year old victim shoot?"
Accurately, one would hope.

" will that person one day kill a visitor out of mistaken fear"
Probably not.

Tell us, Belly, what would you do as someone is breaking in your front door?

Do you really believe that old people, or any people for that matter, should be denied any means of defence?

Issy, one of yours?

Four people dead, and one injured in Darwin last night.

Police believe the same weapon was used on all victims - a pump-action, 12-gauge shotgun.

Yep! That's what we need more guns in the community to keep us safe!

Issy, you know full well that the person most likely shot with a gun, is the gun owner, the second most likely is a family member.

Some old fart sitting behind a door 24/7 with a loaded shot gun, that's all we need.

Got this in an email the other day.

A shotgun-armed pre-teen vs. illegal alien home invaders.
Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez, 23, and Enrico Garza, 26, probably
believed they would easily overpower home-alone 11-year-old Patricia
Harrington after her father had left their two-story home.
It seems these crooks never learned two things:
1. They were in Montana.
2. Patricia had been a clay-shooting champion since she was nine.
Patricia was in her upstairs room when the two men broke through the
front door of the house. She quickly ran to her father's room and
grabbed his 12-gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun.
Resindez was the first to get up to the second floor, only to be the
first to catch a near point blank blast of buckshot from the
11-year-old's knee-crouch aim. He suffered fatal wounds to his
abdomen and genitals.
When Garza ran to the foot of the stairs, he took a blast to the
left shoulder and staggered out into the street where he bled to death
before medical help could arrive. It was found out later that Resindez was
armed with a stolen 45-caliber handgun he took during another home
invasion robbery. That victim, 50-year-old David 0'Burien, was not so
lucky. He died from stab wounds to the chest.

Ever wonder why good stuff never makes NBC, CBS, PBS, MSNBC, CNN, or ABC news ?

An 11-year-old girl, properly-trained, defended her home, and
herself against two murderous, illegal immigrants and she wins.
She is still alive. Now THAT is Gun Control !!
Thought for the day: Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented
immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist.'

Is Mise,

I would set off my personal alarm and call the police, and security lights would be coming on all over the place. I doubt very much that your average housebreaker would persist. If I had to, I would defend my wife and myself with household items that could never be classified as weapons, but nevertheless could inflict nasty wounds.

If you use firearms, and wound or kill an intruder, you are liable to be charged. Not fair? Nope. But that's the law. The only person who deals out 'justice' to scum bags and gets way with it is Liam Neeson in movies.

You start waving guns around, and you can expect big trouble. We are talking about real life here, not Hollywood.

Many will disagree but Australian TV plays a huge role in the mentality depreciation of people here.
The average legal Bogan won't know any better but those with some sense will eventually find themselves cornered to beyond the ability of coping with so much stereo idiocy . They're the ones who tend to snap !

ttbn,

You don't live in NSW where the prosecution, in self-defence cases, has to prove that the victim was not in fear of their life.

PAUL,

Paul,

AS far as we know the offender in Darwin was not licenced, had an illegal firearm, was on electronically monitored probation etc., etc.

Fortunately, it was not a massacre by Australian standards, so the gun laws are working!!

Whenever I had to deal with similar situations to this - elderly people feeling unsafe in their own homes, I would advise them to make a few external security modifications to their home, to a standard they could afford, and that alone would make them feel that much safer than usual. A bit of psychology, as well as adding to the external security of their house.

Unfortunately, some OAP are renting, and their Landlord would not permit any physical modifications to his property, either internally or externally - on pain of a complete loss of their deposit, which in some cases amounted to circa $1,500 - $2,000 Bond. Which I thought was most unreasonable given the circumstances. One fellow, I went to bat for, finally relented and allowed a monitored intruder alarm to be installed. On the understanding, when the tenant decided to vacate the premises, he relinquished ownership of the System when he departed? Well, that's fair isn't - Not!

These poor buggers, as well as feeling unsafe, they have to comply with draconian Landlords who were taking every spare $ they could, from these older people? Their only crime was getting old. I've got to admit there's only so much the coppers can do for the elderly renters. It's the Landlords who hold all the cards, and even when the police intercede on behalf of these elderly folk, if the Landlord won't budge, well there's not a great deal the police can do, without making it a lot worse, for the helpless tenant, in any future dealings with the owner.

Of course Issy, if we took away all the guns then we would have no gun problem.

Would you support efforts to remove ALL guns from society?

Issy, how do you prevent a deranged killer from stealing a 12 gauge shotgun and going on a murderous rampage killing four and seriously injuring one.

Can't rely on incompetent coppers! The Darwin killer was fitted with a tracking device, yet it took the cops an hour to locate him in the relatively small city of Darwin. That's one they are going to have to explain.

O sung wo and Paul at least know the truth
Any combat situation demands first you keep control of your weapon, or have it used against you
And these crimes happen on the streets, in shops, homes, just walking down the road
Carers bash and mistreat the elderly because they can
Even at my age I would rather not have to defend myself from someone a third of my age
This is real life no John Wayne western, the hero often gets beat in real life
Aware of others concerns about punishment of offenders and know we must find better ways to fix those concerns,but not at the expense of victims

Reintroduce a National Service & be done with it ! All this crime is a mentality problem. I'm surprised vigilantism hasn't taken off yet in earnest. It is clear now that the Law is protecting the criminals more than the victims. That just shows how out of touch these ivory tower bureaudroids within the Public Service are.
Anyone against a NS is as guilty if not worse than the criminals & should be charged with hypocrisy.

Paul,

"Would you support efforts to remove ALL guns from society?"

Yes, provided that the criminals were disarmed first, then we could disarm everybody else, police, military, etc.

Belly,

You still haven't told us what you would do as the axe blade smashed through your front door.

Indy, I am against NS, so lump me in. Why penalise the majority that are doing the right thing? As for NS what is the cost, and how would it be organised, more of those PS's you so detest. Should there be higher taxes to pay for more prisons and NS? Some habitual criminals actually prefer jail to the outside.

I totally agree, you do the crime, you do the time, but someone has to determine what that time is, and its never going to satisfy all of the community no matter what.

Live in a nice closely settled suburb do you ttbn, how nice for you. Out here we have 5 police stations with in 24 to 28 kilometres of us, but the last time someone rang to report a robbery in progress, the cops turned up the next day, to itemise what was stolen.

Anyone depending on government run organisations is a "bloody idiot". The last time an ambulance was called by a neighbour, [to come from any of the 5 stations almost beside those 5 cop shops], it took an hour & 18 minutes to get here. Not much help if you're having a heart attack, or your head bashed in by some scumbag.

Fat lot of help the cops are at night too, when the stations are shut, & one patrol car has 10,000 Sq kilometres to "protect".

o sung wu, hi old mate, you did miss one form of protection that is legal & effective. A big nasty dog or 2. Yes owning a pit bull, if you are not really good at dog training might be as dangerous as the intruder, but there are a number of breeds that are great pets, but also good guard dogs. Our own Australian breed cattle dog is very protective, & easy to train.

When I had my racing cars, expensive gear like real magnesium wheels & other stuff was highly burglar attractive. My 2 large Great Danes, roaming the yard & the house through a swinging flyscreen back door meant my stuff was pretty safe. They were really softies, [I think}, but no one ever bothered to find out the hard way.

Most attacks on anyone, young or old, can be avoided (are avoided) by being careful and acting sensibly. We don't need a bunch of armed geriatrics setting up to defend themselves against something that is very unlikely to happen.

Instead of fantasising about elderly Garry Coopers and 'High Noon', put your minds to finding out the percentage of our 25 million people, young and old, who have been subject to random, unprovoked attacks over the past year. Very low, I would guess.

Hasbeen,

Most people do live in a "closely settled suburb". If you like living in the bush, that's your choice; but I don't recall you talking about being attacked or threatened in you own home. And, the sort of riff raff we are talking about rarely leave cities.

And, it's a toss up between dogs and guns when it comes to bringing down the law on yourself. If a stranger enters your property on legitimate business, and your dog has a taste of him, you are liable. Warning of a dog on your property doesn't remove that liability. Even if a no good, scum of scum-of-the-earther can successfully sue you, if you hurt him by gun or dog.

I think we old folks need to act our age and stop fantasising. It's the boredom of living too long that does it.

As the sergeant of police at Howard was heard to advise some land holders, "if someone comes onto your property, don't what ever you do injure them. If you have to do something, shoot them between the eyes, then they & some smart lawyer can't concoct a story against you". At the time, some of us thought he was joking.

I have the advantage ttbn of living in a dead end narrow road, where most landholders are likely to have big dogs & guns. The road is easily blocked by even a small truck parked across it. The crims around here are too smart to put themselves at the tender mercy of annoyed locals, at least so far, 27 years. It is only the bikey down the road that had had visitors.

Yes most of us elderly Garry Coopers can still use our guns when needed. My last was 5 months ago when my new tree change neighbour had his little flock of alpacas & black faced sheep attacked by a pack of wild dogs, or more likely suburban dogs out on the rampage. Being a city boy he has no gun, & came asking if I did.

It only took 2 shots to put the rest to flight, but then I had to put down 2 sheep torn apart but still alive. We then had to bury 2 dogs & 2 sheep, before his wife saw what had happened to her pets.

Yes we need guns, & to know how to use them out here, & it sure doesn't hurt that the crims realise we probably have them.

ttbn,

The point is that no one in Australia is allowed to keep anything for the purpose of self-defence.

NOTHING.

Does that seem fair to you?

It certainly does not deter criminals.

G'day HASBEEN -

You're correct. There's no more significant deterrent than a noisy dog, barking away at intruders; especially those intent in engaging in House-Breaking in your absence. As a form of protection, for the aged & frail, a (noisy) dog does tend to dissuade a potential assailant from carrying out their assault.

Regrettable for a young 'connie' I had in my squad, I directed him, and his partner attended a possible 'bust,' after an 'electronic carer's alarm' functioned, and the 'monitors' decided to contact police. Upon arrival, they found this elderly lady sobbing uncontrollably, while she stroked and patted her deceased 'terrier pup.' The poor little blighter had been bludgeoned to death, by the assailaint, apparently because he wouldn't stop barking at him?

He took her purse, and had a look around the kitchen, wrecking the place in the process, without finding any further monies on the premises. He, unfortunately, made good his escape before police arrived, and his identity is hitherto, still unknown. And that wasn't because of any delay of police. The entire squad wanted this bloke, and had he been arrested, I believe it would've been hard to control the team after the cruelty to the little terrier dog, and the physical mistreatment of the elderly lady! I reckon that'd be over thirty years ago now when I was still in uniform?

Hi, there BELLY -

I've had to carry a revolver and then a pistol most of my working life. And you're right BELLY, as well as the comments of IS MISE. FYI, IS MISE is very experienced with handling all types of F/A's, far more so than me. One thing does emerge, the need to continue to practice and maintain their skills, with their weapons. Otherwise, accidents can and do happen, with tragic results. Which will quickly see you appearing in the Coroner's Court, and that's despite any extenuating circumstances, you might care to share with the Court?

I would respectfully suggest, there would be very few older people who have adequate skills to handle a F/A sufficiently enough, to defend themselves under all circumstance? Perhaps IS MISE would be an exception, and even myself, on a very very good Day? Men like HASBEEN, a bushie who resides in a rural environment, would as well I suspect? But most older people who've lived all their lives in suburban settings, probably not.

Paul,
You can't blame the coppers in Darwin, they did not know initially
who they were dealing with and the police do not monitor the ankle
trackers. One report said it had been removed.
By the time they identified who they were dealing with it would have been too late.

Why penalise the majority that are doing the right thing?
Paul1405,
You call the privilege of gaining insight & a healthier mentality penalising ?? And, this majority you're referring to is a rapidly dwindling one.
What other method can you think of that'll put the brakes on the bandwagon that is the entitlement plague ?

Is Mise,

No. I don't think it's fair, but it's the law. And, the law will not be changed no matter how much we argue the toss. It's all very well for us to say what we think, but nobody takes any notice of what we think in real life, let alone anonymously on the internet. I don't think any politician is ever going to say, "Hey. We should be listening more to those old codgers on OLO", if they've ever heard of it.

I have nothing against guns. I used to own a lot of them, but got rid of them all when I had no further use for them. Unless you use guns on a regular basis, you don't need them.

That's odd Bazz, this bloke in Darwin is a rather serious criminal. The only experience I've had with someone wearing an ankle tracking device was in NZ, where a family member was wearing on, and even to go to the shops, unscheduled, he had to ring and get permission to do so. Otherwise they would inform the police of his location and Bobs your uncle, back in the slammer!

p/s The tracking device was still on his leg when arrested, btw, he gave himself up. Someone wasn't doing their job.

ttbn,

Whilst it's not fair there are useful anomalies, no one is allowed pepper spray, but over cleaner is on the shelf at the local supermarket.
Of course, you can't keep oven spray in the bedroom but personal deodorant sprays are OK.

o sung wu,

Couldn't agree more on the need to practice I'm at the range once a fortnight and hunt most weeks (in fact we're out after the foxes in an hour or so).

I'm still about the middle of the crop on range days,(experience versus ability!!) and on pistol days I can still manage to get 6 shots on target in the 5-second stage of the rapid fire.

Is Mise,

I did mention "household items" yesterday.

My mnd was not focused on those who can defend themselves
It was those who can not [ there fore more likely to be victims] I am concerned about
While quoting past home invasion and aged care homes, the little old person having bag or wallet snached was my focus too
Surely we are not proposing they have loaded guns when out and about
ICE an evil in its own right, has driven many who commit cruel crimes against what they see as soft touches

G'day to you IS MISE -

'...Six shots on target in five seconds...'. I couldn't get six shots on any target, in five days, let alone five seconds! I always had trouble with both the revolver (.38 spec S&W 115g, semi HP) and the 9mm Pistol, (Glock 17, standard issue).

I was significantly better with a 'tricked-up' 7.62 (.308) Sniper Rifle, enabling me to shoot MOA with the FBI's Rifle regularly! You might recall me telling you, I attended the 'Urban Sniper School', at the US Army's, Specialist Heavy Armoured Range, (Abrams Tanks) at Camp Roberts (that backs onto the Mojave desert) about 45 miles from the town of 'Paso Robles' in CA. in 1986. Somehow I managed to pass the course.

To be perfectly candid with you, even if I wasn't successful, I gathered an enormous amount of data & material, on urban marksmanship & strategies, courtesy of the FBI, while there.

Which reminded me of the Man MONIS episode, at the Lindt Cafe, a few years back, and how the whole thing could've been successfully concluded, much, much earlier, with our existing deployment & equipment - still good tactics can never 'trump' vacillating & indecisive Commanders, now can they?

Yes o sung wu, when I was doing my flying training we somehow missed connecting with a RAAF pilot course, & spent 3 months wasting time at Nowra. We spent a lot of time on the range, with 303s, Bren guns & pistols. Of the 6 of us, a couple had trouble hitting the mound reliably with a smith & Wesson. They would never have hit a man at more than a couple of feet. It was a bit of relief they both failed their flying training, I would not have liked being near them with a couple of cannon at their disposal in the air.

I wasn't too bad, I could hit one of those big A4 food tins at 20 Ft about half the time. Interestingly, 3 of us could demolish one of those tins with a Bren from the hip. It does appear to be easier to aim well with 2 hands, rather than one. Did you still have Brens, & what do you think of them if you did. We also had Owens, & found them fun, but difficult to get accurate with, even with 2 hands.

It is over 50 years since I touched a handgun. It is doubtful I could hit the shed today, even from the inside, I'll stick to the rifle.

Hi there, HASBEEN...

Most definitely we had the ultra reliable Bren Gun in .303. The biggest complaint, they were too accurate for a light machine gun most of us thought? I did my recruit training at 1RTB Kapooka, and we trained with the SMLE .303 Rifle at the time, before they adopted the L1A1 SLR 7.62 FN Rifle.

Extraordinarily enough, I wasn't too bad with the SMLE, and we sure got plenty of practice with them.

Oops, well of Topic, I'm sorry, BELLY.

My mind was not focused on those who can defend themselves
Belly,
The most disturbing factor in all this is that we're not allowed to defend ourselves. The academic social warriors have effectively disarmed whole Nations by their idiotic idealist dreaming. I would love to hear of one of those morons actually being belted to crap & then see how they'd feel about their own idealism !

Indy ok, true but think about the frail aged, they are often the victims
Because they are frail aged
Most of us, from time to time have put in print our concerns about court verdicts here
Just this past week sentences of 40 years and 37, have been handed down for acts of terrorism
Well done! but too child rapists have got 10 years
And, we all know, some ice addicts get to walk out of court, some, multiple times

Hi there INDIVIDUAL -

I have to agree with you, my friend. Everybody is morally & legally entitled to defend themselves & others, against a violent attack. And to have a group of lawyers sitting in a nice comfortable, air-conditioned room, ruminating on whether or not you were justified, taking the measures you did, to defend yourselves, is utterly absurd!

Just as absurd; the law allows you to defend yourself, provided you don't carry and use an implement or tool calculated to do so.

Another absurdity; are those few 'boofheads' who believe they have this inalienable right, to shoot anyone who happens to come to their front door during hours of darkness, irrespective of their lawfulness or otherwise. Common sense, together with the law, must prevail.

No problem with that o sung wo, you would be aware of some charged over defending their homes/selves
Still concerned at those committing crimes against those who just cannot defend themselves even with a gun
Country towns, deeply affected by ice, see such crimes every week
Not truly sure if we can ever stop that type of crime if the courts continue to release the perpetrators with a slap on the wrist

o sung wu,
It's because of the increasing numbers of boofheads & other incompetent useless, that we really need to seriously consider a National Service to counter this dreadful trend.
I don't care what people say but it is my firm belief that without some discipline we have absolutely no hope of bettering the mentality that is the cause of so much stupidity at ultimately the cost of all of us.

Issy, you still haven't said how you would prevent a known criminal from stealing a 12 gauge legal shotgun, and going on a rampage killing four and seriously injuring a fifth.

Maybe this is the answer!

A Dads Army of armed to the teeth old fuddy duddy's, running around shooting up the town, that's all we need!

Hi again INDIVIDUAL...

I reckon you've hit the nail squarely on the head. A lack of personal discipline. With discipline, comes a sense of social maturity and responsibility towards other members of the community. Instead of this constant 'me, me, me,' we hear so often. The unrestrained sounds of self-gratification and appeasement, from our over-indulged youth. And that can't be too bad.

The coppers can only do so much, after all, when they (police) have to intercede, generally, it's become all too late for the errant young offender. One minor mistake can give a young person a criminal record. Which, in turn, can inhibit that person from pursuing some worthwhile career paths, albeit it was only a minor mistake.

I understand INDIVIDUAL you've always been a keen supporter of National Service for our young. And I also support that view. However, many of my (own) ex-service mates, don't share our opinion. Many claim our Military has evolved into a far more specialised and technical institution than it was in our time? Consequently, they now claim they need recruits with a bit of common sense and aptitude, and they reckon many of these young blokes of today, virtually can't even tie their shoelaces? I don't know about that; It doesn't seem to be a ringing endorsement of our young people, now does it?

Well national service?, some very true drug heads would shoot themselves if given a gun
Indy, o sung wo yes we need a better education for everyone
Justmaybe make it first step for every convicted criminal
And for some, [heart breaking but true] who can not even read, as payback for welfare
But even in time of war, very real danger to this country, people rejected compulsory national service
Make it service to the community and you have my vote

Come on Paul, what universe do you inhabit? It can't be this one. Some day you'll surprise me by making a sensible comment.

All the crims have no need of stealing a shotgun, they have access to all the firearms the law denies the honest citizen.

Fortunately the crims are usually more sensible, & don't use their weapons. It is usually only when high on grog or drugs they get silly enough to pack the hard stuff.

I agree Belly it is a major problem. I can't imagine my mother in law using a weapon to defend herself. Living alone on the Gold Coast we do worry about her, she doesn't even have a dog. We need more cops on night time patrols in many areas, but then how do we pay for that.

I'm trying to decide on a new dog. Our old Danish Shepard went to sleep, & didn't wake up a month back. I doubt she would have been much use the last couple of years, but she did look big. I'm leaning toward a Great Dane. They are really a big softy, not guard dog material, but their size does a lot to intimidate intruders.

Belly,

"But even in time of war, very real danger to this country, people rejected compulsory national service"

That was WWI when there was no danger to Australia at all.

WWII and Vietnam saw compulsory service and such service was accepted by the majority of the people.

Paul,

By following the law and keeping guns securely locked up.

You haven't commented on my answer to your question about getting rid of all guns in society.

Belly,

You haven't yet said what you would do to protect yourself as the axe blade smashed through your front door.

Is Mise,

Conscription for Vietnam was only 'accepted' because most Australians weren't affected - just unlucky 18 year old males, whose lives were ruined by a bloody lottery. Disgusting! Shameful!

My birth date came out for service in that war
I Wanted to serve, was fit and playing first grade Rugby League
The doctor stopped me [eyes]
Not even sure why,I wanted to serve
Indys constantly telling us national service is the answer, in my view, questions did it ever turn bad people to good
IF that service, as in some Nordic countries,is not just for war, it can be great help
Why not target those who commit crimes, and those who look likely to be on welfare for life
Say first offense a camp with education and life skills?
Indy would you except a brand new subject in every school life skills, say basics in behavior and too teaching about the end result of being a criminal

//Come on Paul, what universe do you inhabit? It can't be this one. Some day you'll surprise me by making a sensible comment.

All the crims have no need of stealing a shotgun, they have access to all the firearms the law denies the honest citizen.//

Hassy when are you going to catch up, this mass murderer in Darwin did have a need to steal a legal firearm to carry out his rampage. So your claim about ALL does not apply.

Issy,

//By following the law and keeping guns securely locked up// We just can't trust the gunnies to do that, Darwin a point in question. What ratio of accidental/murderous/mistaken death to legitimate self defence deaths would you accept as the price to pay for this self defence? One to one, two to one.

I don't know how many more times I need to say this but 'ere goes again !
National Service is not, repeat, not Military Service !
National Service is as Belly & o sung wu rightly suggested,a community based service during which mentality poor & responsibility deficient young people will be exposed to a healthier mentality & doses of responsibility. It will rub off on them & many I'd imagine make it in turn rub off on their parents. It's a win, win & win again scenario !
Those opposing such a service need to be enlightened on the fact that one needs a small degree of enlightenment to begin with so as to get a grasp on the benefits on offer. Once the understanding is sinking in, the snowballing will take off in earnest ! The snowflakes will simply thaw away & flush the system. Better times will be guaranteed.

Ok Indy, this national service idea, give us some facts, who, when, where, how many, how long, doing what exactly, run by who, how much is the cost.

You are the first to criticise The Greens for un-costed pie in the sky ideas. I'll go along with your NS when you explain it in some detail. People who are most in favour of Military National Service are the old ducks 60+, the ones least likely to be conscripted are the old ducks 60+.

The cost of your scheme, given the cost of keeping prisoners in jail, and soldiers in the army is $60-80k p.a. per individual.

Those on the aged pension, fit to work, should be required to do 16 hours a week national service to earn their keep. I think you would fit that mould. I can't see why many aged pensioners can't walk around the streets etc with sack in hand, with one of those grabby things picking up rubbish. Brilliant idea, don't you agree?

Paul1405,
I will provide my idea of how a NS should be implemented. Meanwhile, I'd like to ask you to make an effort not to be such a dill.

Indi and O sung wu,
Tonight on TV one will see an example of what self discipline can achieve. A young lady named Ash Barty will contest the final of the French tennis open, the first Aussie to do so since 1975. Certainly,she is gifted but did not reach that standard without the self discipline of countless hours of practice in honing her skills. You can bet she never slept late on Sunday after a night clubbing and drug taking.

If national service can instill some measure of self discipline in our young, then I support it in whatever form and tonight I will watch this young lady. Win or lose we are proud to call her one of our own. Her future is now assured and good luck to her. she could easily become number one.

Few of us will become champions or as successful as Ash Barty but to achieve in life self discipline is the first requirement.

Someone recently mentioned pensioners eating dog food, can't find the relative post so this is as good as anywhere else to reveal my in-depth research into the matter.

Coles, Inverell.

Campbell's Chunky Beef (tinned) 35 cents/ 100 grams.

VIP Cat food (tinned) 38/100

My Dog (tinned) 55/100

Natures dog (tinned) 40/100

On dry food, Coles Museli came out much cheaper than dry dog food.

So let us lay the myth to rest, although "Specials" may make a difference

G'day there HENRY L -

An excellent observation, Henry. Indeed Ash BARTY is a disciplined and highly committed young lady who has dedicated herself to tennis and cricket and looks like achieving her very own, self-actualization, in the French Open.

I suspect in Ms. BARTY's case, discipline & commitment alone will not necessarily lead to sports highest accolades? There'd be much more at play here? Bucket loads of talent, a fair bit of luck, and the right sort of (emotional) personality are all essential ingredients to be successful - That's said, I know bugger all about tennis?

But at the very foundation of her success - She would've needed to possess exceptional personal discipline, together with an unshakable personal commitment, against so many classy players, all of whom are hungry for a victory in Paris.

Furthermore, if one needed more legitimate examples of why discipline is so vital, you need to look no further, then the Armed Forces. And that is the reason why our friend and colleague INDIVIDUAL has continuously supported the need for a re-introduction of 'some form' of National Service, a proposition that I fully support, in whatever form it can be achieved.

Some have queried the additional expenditure of such a bold endeavour? Probably very high, I suspect. Nevertheless, sometimes governments must 'bite the bullet' and take the initiative to interdict these awful crimes that are perpetrated against our elderly people. And at the same time, salvage some of our wayward youth who're currently heading towards Long Bay Gaol for many years of room & board.

An AFTERWORD: Violence occasioned against Children; (some Women); and the elderly - means the offender will need protection from other Inmates, for a very, very long time, while in gaol!

Paul,

"What ratio of accidental/murderous/mistaken death to legitimate self defence deaths would you accept as the price to pay for this self defence? One to one, two to one"

That's a very complex question and one that I couldn't answer off hand, but certainly less than the 100% that you and the Greens accept for the victims.

How are you going on who should give up their guns first, so that society may be free of guns entirely?

Civilians, armed services or criminals, we await your wisdom on this.

Belly,

The home invaders are just about through your door, what are you going to do, that axe looks sharp?

Hi, there IS MISE -

In answer to your question, I think most of us 'oldies' would defecate in situ! On the other hand, if a spare S&W mod. 29/4, in .44mag. were close by, I'd suggest the would-be assailant might be the one to defecate! Just a thought is all.

Any unemployed resident in Australia aged between 18-21 should be required to participate in a Community National Service programme for a period of two years. However, if unemployment can be secured during the time of the service the participant can be relieved from the service.
If the employement ceases before the participant's 21st birthday, they are required to resume the service.
University students would br required to participate if they fail to complete the studies' subject. & fail to secure employment by age 28-30. Attending University to avoid NS must be thouroughly scrutinised as need carers.

A NS must particularly focus on hands-on & general physical activities for mental & physical development in order to instill a sense of responsibility that is the least a resident of this Nation must provide for the privilege of enjoying the privilege.

Cost; As much of the cost is already covered by welfare payments, the additional outlays for a NS can be easily recovered by negligible levies to the employed for the piece of mind that many of the young woill be off the streets at night. Police too will save on resourses as will ambulance, Hospitals Salvation Army etc. as will Insurance companies who will be able to reduce premiums as the crime damage is lowered considerably.
Much of the accommodation/food requirements can be met a very reasonable cost by camping facilities in the case of out-of-town activities & which will boost the industries manufacturing the utensils etc.

In-town activities can be accommodated in unused Govt housing which the participants can be made to work on under tradesperson supervision. There is literally no field in which NS participants can not have a go apart of course from specialised industry. Whichever activity they get a go at for say 3-6 months & if the so wish they can stay or move on until they find what they feel or are deemed to show aptitude for.
NS could possibly be a door to small businesses taking on participants for trial etc.
Many participants will cut their teeth in that & develop a better mentality & become decent citizens & go on to enter the workforceA National service must be introduced gradually so as to iron out teething problems on the go rather than hit the ground with a full-blown program that's failed from the start because of unforseen & unintended consequences because of the inevitable sabotage by incompetent Bureaucrats trying to get a slice of the pie.
One thing is certain if nothing similar is done, nothing will get better.

What this govt needs to do is to invite recommendations & ideas from the public via online questionaires & make the ABC do their bit by including the development of a NS in programmes such as Q & A & the 7.30 report as well as other Current Affair programmes.
The Ministers for Community services & their underlings wouldn't be so bored either with a bit of actuall work to be done !

HenryL, Ash Barty would not be contesting the French Tennis Final, she would be off doing Indy's NATIONAL SERVICE! Or would there be exemptions for the gifted, privileged sporty types etc etc!

Ah! Now this universal national service is being linked to unemployment. So if your old man provides you with a job in the family business, then you're no longer considered one of Indy's dill brains, and you're off the hook. And where will they be locked up at night //be off the streets at night// explain that one. Otherwise Indy its a load of drivel.

Hi Paul,

Ash Barty, currently 23 years old, might have ben able to go off and do National Service in 2014 when she was eighteen. Oh, gosh, that's when she took a break from tennis to take up cricket for two years

You're probably right that people shouldn't have guns in their houses, even if criminals break in armed and ready to use their weapons. There's something in the Christian ethic which urges us to trust and love everybody, even sinners and, who knows, if one were to confront an armed criminal, he may be so struck by our loving example that he might surrender, or at least leave us alone. We should always hope that the goodness inside everyone may reveal itself, and put a would-be criminal on the path of peace and love.

Joe

Issy,

My years dealing with older people, I only recall one person eating cat food, and that was a woman living alone with her cat, and she was senile. Its all to do with victim blaming. The myth is poor people are not really poor, because they foolishly are living it up eating expensive cans of 'Pal', when they should be eating dog food with a label fit for human consumption its five cents a can cheaper. Wow I'm flabbergasted!

Give you an example, old bloke living in a run down house, Inner Sydney, house worth a million bucks, the house had been occupied by himself and his mother until she died. Some how this bloke had been cut off from a pension, no income what so ever. The house had no power, only cold water. I'm there, I ask him what do you have for dinner. He tells me "I'm having a baked dinner tonight". "Okay where is it"..."On the table, in the bag." It was a cold pie, I found out he would go near closing time to the local Vietnamese Bakery, and the lady there would give him stuff to eat. She felt sorry for him, and would give him leftovers. He would sometimes offer to pay, from money he had cadged on the streets. The point is the bloke thought a cold pie equalled a bake dinner

Be as cynical as you like Joe, if you arm 15 million want-a-be amateur town marshals then the death toll among innocent victims will skyrocket. The intention of getting the bad guys will come off in a few cases, the price for that is many innocent deaths.

The gunnie brigade have shown their incompetence time and again, when it comes to their gun fetish. We had the case of a couple of old gunnie fools, at a gun club, one run by the same organisation Is Mise is a member of, train a bloke in the use of hand guns, only to see him go off and murder his two children, and himself. His poor wife has since committed suicide. How tragic is that, I hope the ones who trained that bloke are satisfied with themselves, it was all legal as they will tell us.

Paul1405,
You are a qualified, full-blown m...n !

Paul.

He was legal alright and as you well know he was supported in his desire to obtain a pistol by the NSW Commissioner of Police.

As regards criminals getting firearms there is a licenced firearms dealer in Victoria who has lost over 200 firearms (shotguns, pistols and rifles) and the Victoria Police have done nothing about it.

Hi there INDIVIDUAL -

Despite the naysayers, your proposal makes a whole lot of common sense to me. And for this reason alone, once such a project reaches the ears of our erudite politicians, they'll do everything in their power to sabotage or derail it altogether. No longer are we the 'lucky country.' We're now known as the 'puerile or frivolous' country. Utterly inane Bans, on even discussing or considering Nuclear Energy as an alternate power source. When most of the developed nations around the world, use it as a safe source of 'baseload' power.

Here in Australia, to even discuss it, is tantamount to a Capital Offence. As I said, we're a foolish Nation altogether INDIVIDUAL. So any chance of your (civil) National Service Scheme, however meritorious, getting any mileage, from those dopes in Canberra...well forget it, I'm sorry to say.

Are 20 percent of youth criminals
Are 20 percent of all population criminals
Is it not true the numbers are very much less
Then why, at the very time they are trying to learn their trade and build a life do we want to stop that
Convince me, the threads starter, the problem is that huge
If you can

Hi o sung wu,
If I were a betting man I'd back your assertion rather than my proposal but as they say, never give up ! I have the strange feeling that the children of the Y generation will be way more switched on than those of the baby boomers, overseas that is.. However, I only have some OLO posters to judge by here.
One just has to look at the young talent in Russia & China, makes our lot look like total disasters looking for a place to happen.

Is it not true the numbers are very much less
Belly,
Although youth crime is a very serious problem, there's a far more sinister & dangerous problem bearing down on us.
It's the mindless stupidity pedalled by self-serving baby boomer & gen Y bureaudroids within the education system that is ruining the vulnerable of the young.
Thankfully, there are new young coming up who can see the insanity of their BB & GY parents & they're the ones giving me hope for our society's future.
It is painfully obvious that some Baby Boomers & Gen Y are utterly hopeless in parenting & it's that new generation that deserves way more than their insipid parents could ever hope for.
A NS programme will give these young people the kick-off their nonsensical parents failed so miserably to provide. (nb Paul1405)

Paul,

"The weapon used on Tuesday was a prohibited 12-gauge pump-action shotgun. Northern Territory Police Commissioner Reece Kershaw said it "may have been stolen as far back as 1997".

Such a weapon should have been surrendered or destroyed under the government crackdown on firearms at the time, experts have said."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-48522342

In light of your previous comments would you care to give a reference to back up your post?

Hi there INDIVIDUAL -

I'm sorry old friend; you're arguing from a purely commonsense point of view. Most of us can identify the real issues associated with violence in society. One doesn't need to be a policeman, a prison officer or a member of the judiciary to possess basic common sense, and to appreciate this nightly savagery, in many parts of our big Cities, is burgeoning. And worse, it's becoming more merciless & ferocious. And often rapidly deteriorating from a modest bit of 'push and shove' into a full-scale Assault. Ascending to one of ABH, malicious wounding and worse, attempt. Murder, to full-scale Homicide.

When I first joined the job, most fella's if they had a beef with one another in the pub, it would be taken outside into the carpark, and a decent ol' stink would ensue. Today, you'd be ill-advised to take any disagreement into the carpark, where you'd be likely met, with several demented idiots with iron bars. Such is our 'enlightened,' educated society - I'm f..ked if I know any more?

I reckon I've said all I can say on this topic. Thanks for raising it BELLY, it's worth discussing, as most of us fall within this demographic?

I could build a case for our young highlighting those who have already made their mark in areas such as medicine science and much more
We however have bogged down in insulting [read the posts] our country all youth, and lost contact with the problem
Why do the worst of youth gutless like, assault and rob the aged
Why have our courts become a joke
How do youth offenders become victims of a bad childhood
But those they rob hurt teroris, become victims of their oppressors bad childhood?

Issy, I hope this day finds you bright and cheery as always.

Thank you for confirming the legality of the weapon used. At some stage it was perfectly legal and in the hands of a legal gun owner. The fact it was not handed in during a gun amnesty confirms gun owners are irresponsible people who cannot be trusted to do the right thing. When it was stolen, if it was, maybe sold or given away, who knows when that occurred.

The date of 1997 is speculation only, by a copper whose officers he commands have serious questions to answer as well. Nothing like a bit of deflection away from oneself.

The fact the Australian gun lobby is beholding financially to the NRA in America does not mean we should go down the American path and arm our citizens to the teeth.

Indy,

Your scheme should be voluntary. Forcing young people to do those sorts of things is seen as a form of punishment and they often as not don't co-operate, and the whole things falls down. This scheme should be meaningful and those involved have to see a real benefit for themselves. "Work for the dole" and many "training" schemes have failed because they are not there as a positive for the participant, but simply a political manoeuvre to placate wingers in the community.

There are many good kids without a job, a properly constructed pathway to employment will give kids a future, and in that way they will become better members of society. Mentoring programs if done properly are excellent. Fr Chris Riley's 'Youth Off The Streets' mentoring program is excellent, but it is targeting youth at the extreme of a crisis situation.

http://youthoffthestreets.com.au/what-we-do/growth/educationalsupport/mentoring/

Guns for self defense-

History tells us that once the populace is disarmed tyranny follows.
See Hideyoshi's sword hunt 1588.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_hunt

But the Trotsky Communists and New Left want tyranny- so don't trust them when they say no guns.

Patrick Deneen says that in "Liberal" Democracy the population hands their power and responsibilities to the government without concern for the fallacies. "Conservatives" believe that there needs to be a balance between the power held at different levels of government- and the population needs to hold their own proportion. . Also there is the view that people need to be able to be able to act in the case of threats to their life and damage to their property. Sometimes it might not be wise to act but for decisiveness it is important to leave this decision to the judgement of the person in the situation. Sun Tzu- the civil government in the capital should not run the army in the field.

There seems to be a paradox here in the perception that older people may not be mentally capable of their own self defense. There are a few ways to resolve this paradox- 1. Perhaps old age communities provide greater safety and a model can be developed around this concept- this would perhaps insulate older people from the violence in the wider community. 2. Perhaps there can be work done in diversion programs- but much has been done before.

Generally if people feel afraid there is good reason why they feel that way- there seems to be a trend to blame the victim in certain cases but the opposite in other cases. As in first aid it's the silent unseen victims that are most vulnerable. If an older person pulls a gun on someone at the door- I would be first asking what led to this mind set- not "older people get crazy". As Confucius says the institutions of the community are critical for it's stability- if the people are crazy it's the fault of the institutions- there are subtle nuances here

Paul1405,
You're simply refusing to see even the slightest ounce of sense. I explicitly stated that the implementation of a NS should be gradually & fine-tuned on the run.
I also clearly stated that the Govt should invite feedback particularly from those who'll be most affected.
Your mentality on matters society is clearly a mere daydream with the focus on disrupting anything that can help hose who need help & guidance because their life plans have been ruined by integrity-devoid such as you.
Instead of digging for loopholes to condemn suggestions to improve society why don't you for a change propose solutions ? You could actually be regarded as a useful contributor rather than simply a stirrer !

Individual- I think Paul1405 has an ideology that is incompatible with yours. He seems to believe in individual freedom in preference to responsibility. This is similar to the difference between John Stuart Mill (free so long as it doesn't limit others) and Aristotle (societies need to be structured for stability)- both these views can be presented in absolute or relative terms.

Now that we have all had our say we have to return to the reality that nothing is going to change. We are never going to be listened to by politicians - mainly because they don't know we are having this 'discussion'; and, they only pay lip service to the problems of ageing and old age. We are of no use to them. We cost them money in pensions and health care. They don't give a stuff. Like all people of their generation they are incapable of thinking ahead to when they will be old.

ttbn- With a focus on identity politics we forget about the people who got us here. But that is what is necessary if you want communism- a break with the past. Yes we need to teach everyone the value of a unified community- where the old and young interact. The future is in the past.

Yesterday, in the course of discussion, the subject of self discipline came up and I mentioned a young lady who has loads of self discipline.

Her name is Ash Barty and today a hearty congratulations are in order for her as she won the French open singles tennis in France. So Ash, good onya, it is well deserved and shows that dedication, hard work and discipline does pay off. Not only do you get to take home the trophy but the almost $4 million prize money helps to pay a few bills.

You have my best wishes for good fortune in future and am sure you will be a great role model for young people.

HenryL- Kudos.

dedication, hard work and discipline
HenryL,
I agree, we should keep an eye open for young people who want to apply these qualities to work for society as a whole & give them accolades also. I'm sure there'd be many junior Public Servants who'd qualify.

Dear HenryL,

I totally agree.

Wonderful moment!

Paul you have been flogged with the feather duster of CMs strange views
And indys too
How did we leave the victims, some in pools of blood, others with ruined lives, to highlight national service
Or in the case of CM a word full of leftists that never exists
This thread is about the law, outcomes for victims of cruel gutless crimes
It too asks why, why some youth do this to those who cannot defend themselves

Paul,

"Thank you for confirming the legality of the weapon used. At some stage it was perfectly legal and in the hands of a legal gun owner"

How do you know?

The weapon was illegal under Australia's gun laws, for all that you or anyone else knows it may have been smuggled in by bikies or others dealing in the very profitable illicit market that the gun laws created.

There is no doubt that the shootings in Darwin are seen as a failure of the gun laws.

Care to answer the outstanding questions?

Ise Mise in my youth I owned guns, legally, but almost any one could then
We, deeply impressed with a ww2 veteran Uncles teaching, made very sure they, and us, behaved very very safely
I carried that training on long after he passed
And thought his younger than me son, was doing the same
He however panicked, bright summer day out on the veranda of a big farm house
He spotted a snake, ran inside to get the gun, and shot his wife
They lived along while after that, but he never held a gun again
Our problem is not people like you, skilled and trained, it is the truth filth who do not intend anything good once they have gun in hand

Yeah, Belly,

I worked with three blokes who often went "pig shooting" their kit was guns and slabs of beer. I'm sure these jerks shot more than pigs. The pigs would be to smart for them anyway.

Here's my gun law Issy, no guns allowed in the general community, full stop. Anyone caught with as much as a water pistol after X date, 20 years jail. I know as a fully paid up member of the Australian chapter of the NRA, you will not agree, no guns means no more funds, from you know who.

Hi there Belly -

You asked a very legitimate question, a question our lawmakers and behavioral scientists also seek the same answer, why? '...It too asks why, why some youth do this to those who cannot defend themselves...'? Because they can! Women, the very young, and the elderly, are easy marks for these predatory youths, and the only way to stop them, is to lock them up and let them see how well they can look after themselves in gaol.

PAUL,

"Here's my gun law Issy, no guns allowed in the general community, full stop. "

But you will, of course, disarm the criminals before you disarm the law abiding licenced gun owners, won't you?

It seems to be Greens policy to disarm the law-abiding as when they had the chance to support tougher gun laws in NSW they chickened out, probably owed one to their drug dealing mates.

I see you are still trying the now completely debunked lie that the USNRA funds Australian organizations.

Paul1405,
I'd like to witness how you'd behave when confronted by a huge boar, sow & piglets or a pack of feral dogs etc.
I have stated many times that there is no justifiable need for someone in suburbia to have a .357 magnum or a .44 etc just to shoot at targets at a gun club. A .22 or even an air gun are more than adequate for someone to show off.
Out in the scrubby country things are far more serious but again, there's no justification for automatic assault rifles etc.
A bloke I know carries a 410 which saved him a couple of times from large, angry Browns.

"...there's no justification for automatic assault rifles etc"

There never has been, automatic weapons have been banned since, at least, the 1930s.

invent bad childhoods and upbringing
Belly,
I'm glad you brought this up because I have actually experienced that too. The problem is that the wide-eyed, open-mouthed academic do-gooder types started believing all this story telling & acted on what they heard instead of what they saw !
One bloke tore into me that "my people are suffering" because the water was off for a couple of hours during repairs to the line.

Are you sure about that date Is Mise? I had a browning 22 in the mid 50s which I recall as an automatic. I'm not totally sure, it may have been a repeater, but my memory is auto. Dad was not the sort of bloke to give me an illegal gun.

What a different world today. Before I did my first foreign cruise I bought a cheap Winchester 22, an air rifle & a shotgun at the nearest Big W department store. Good guns don't stay good for long in the salt atmosphere of a yacht.

The 22 was great for harvesting bunches of coconuts. 3 or 4 shots through the stem of a bunch would bring it down. A lot easier & safer than climbing those 70 Ft tall palms in the islands.

I used the same technique to kill the flower pods of the cocos palms some fool planted in the house paddock before I bought the place. Just a couple of shots through the stem kills the thing so the horrible nuts don't develop. If you let them grow you have flying fox for weeks each night after the nuts.

Too many new homes with in a few hundred metres today, to be safe shooting up in the air, so had to drop the things. A really big effort with them too close to the house for comfort.

Yes we need rifles to protect our stock. Stupid council regulations require we keep our dogs locked up, so the rifle is the only way.

There never has been, automatic weapons..
Is Mise,
??

Far from the subject but true, this morning read a feature story on ABC online news
About that murdering thing who ran down innocent folk on a Melbourne footpath
His history is full of criminal offenses, too he was questioned by police, many times in that last week, even day before
A Police officer near begged he be watched, it never happened
IF we are to address the problem we must first fix our justice system
Courts empower these crimes
Indy yes such people exist and too often courts fall for it

Indy yes such people exist and too often courts fall for it
Belly,
it is because of the poorly run Court system that such mentality flourishes. People in high positions aren't trained in thinking , they're merely trained to be seen as thinking.
That's why they invented meaningless jargon.

Hasbeen,

That was a semi-automatic or self-loader, one shot for each pull of the trigger, an automatic fires either in bursts (usually three) or continues to fire as long as the trigger is pressed.

Semi-autos are banned in Australia (with exceptions for some users) even though some of them fire slower than some legal repeating firearms.

We agree here indy seems our courts lower and high are full of middle class nuts
Type that consider only they know what is best for us
Many threads posted by me and others highlight we need law reform
Maybe we need the average Joe to have the right to vote judges out of a job
It is done in America

We got a good run, talked it to death
Thought we could end by highlighting ICE is behind much of this
How are we to beat that back yard murderer?
Well make laws that confiscate every thing of vaulue owned by dealers
Mandatory prison/re education for users
Long term mandatory terms for every importer, take even the spouses cash and property, every time
Until we show the same lack of concern for them they do to their victims we will never stop them

How are we to beat that back yard murderer?
Belly,
by offering them the privilege of participating in a National Service that offers them to acquire a healthier mentality !

Consider the farmer's wife, alone ln a house in the bush who is not allowed any means of self defence. A great society that we live in.

Yes Is Mise that farmers wife should have access to anything she wanted for her protection, as of course should the elderly. The fact that what ever they choose may not help them is not as important as the peace of mind in feeling safe & less scared.

I'll stick with my dogs, & a couple of redly available & legal pressure pack cans. Gentian violet spray, available from your vets, will not only disinfect your dogs injuries, [& your own] but sprayed in the face will not only render the receiver incapable for a little while, but will make them easily identifiable by the very difficult to remove violet colour.

A pressure can of Start Ya Bastard, nothing but ether & white spirits, will not only help start an old reluctant motor, but render an intruder hard of vision for some time.

I actually picked up a new dog today. An 8 month old Great Dane, who's owners were frightened would hurt their 2 year old. Danes are clumsy & not suitable with little children. They are in no way guard dogs, more likely to lick than bite, but their size & deep bark is a real deterrent. When I had a couple in Sydney, even friends who knew them, would not come into the yard or house, if we were not there to welcome them in.

indy! my reference was to those processing the needed drugs in their backyard shed to make ICE
If you truly think that group of bottom dwellers would benefit from National service you have my sympathy
This thread is mise was never about arming or not arming those who may become victims
I think [maybe wrong] it was about defenseless victims in growing numbers of crimes against the defenseless

Hasbeen,

Thanks for that, I'd never thought about the Gentian Violet.
It's also great for ringworm!!

If you truly think that group of bottom dwellers would benefit from National service you have my sympathy
Belly,
Again, you fail to grasp the gist of it. Where did I ever state that bottom dwellers would benefit from a NS ?
What you et al need to try to comprehend is that a NS is not a remedy, it's a prevention ! GOT IT !

http://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/two-boys-charged-over-violent-sydney-car-park-mugging-20190611-p51wet.html
Sorry about this indy but you can not get away with that dribble
Read your post above mine
Then read again my post that offended you
You need to consider just what your post meant if not what I saw it as saying
Too read the above link 14!year! olds!what on earth is becoming of our country

Sorry about this indy but you can not get away with that dribble
Belly,
To call being concerned about society dribble says a lot more about you than me.

Truly sorry maye, but it screams that you can not see the meaning in your own words
Too that your insistence national service is a cure all is weird stuff

HEY!!Belly,

How are you going with that home invader who is hacking down the door?

What are you going to do?

Belly,
it's only weird stuff to those who can't see past their own interests, most normal thinkers see it as a necessity !

Ise Miserable in fact have defended myself a few times and once threw a fool out at 2am, he never came back
You seem overjoyed at your blind refusal to see some can not defend themselves
SMH today, read it mate, 26 year old car thief
Ran over a 50 plus year old woman, trying to stop him stealing her sons car
She died
He on being found guilty screamed hate, racism, filth, at the court, said he never did anything wrong!

What are you going to do?
Is Mise,
I think he's waiting for Axe man to finish sharpen it !

Belly,

Just tell us what you would do as the home invader(s) bash in your front door.

I worry about you is miserable
Truly are you a school kid? or is it you just pretend to have difficulty understanding
Now bit of a rough nut all my life I have the scars to prove it
Others have a few too
What is it you want?do you understand the thread is about the truly helpless being harmed by the truly worthless?
How is my ability to defend myself related
Not sure in my mid 70,s if I would test them ,if a chance existed my baseball bat could be used without becoming the weapon that killed me?
Never know
Never the less my grumble guts mate what are you rambling on about

Hi there BELLY...

Just to remind you of a little known fact, within the police force, my friend. It's not the man with the scars and the flat nose, we should respect and fear - iI's the man who gave them to him?

Belly'

In your OP,
"Past week, nearly every week has been one of home invasions and bashing of elderly homeowners"

Nothing there about people being "...the thread is about the truly helpless being harmed by the truly worthless?"

You didn't say that to start with,
so as one who is not truly helpless, what would you do if home invaders attacked you?

o sung wu,

The only scar that I have is a "circular gunshot wound, lower angle of the left jaw" (as it says on my Discharge Certificate) the entry wound, to the rere of the left ear, has virtually faded away and was never prominent after it healed up.

Hi there Is Mise...

You're a very lucky man to have been shot with 'ball' ammo in Korea, was it? Especially anywhere around the head. Waste of time you buying any more lottery tickets ol' mate? As it sounds like you've consumed all your luck for life!

I've been more fortunate by all accounts, I've never had any wounds while on overseas service,, other than a deflected 'panji' cut just below the R Knee. Which became infected. I did, however, suffer all manner of tropical illnesses and infections. I'm firmly convinced no European man or women can properly survive, in the tropical jungles of the world.

o sung wu,

Yes, I was really lucky, Korea was my only active service posting.
The doc said that the bullet had burned the wall of the jugular vein, a hair's breadth from a deadly wound.
Funny thing was that it didn't hurt much even though there was plenty of blood, I thought that I'd only been nicked.
The proximity to the vein made it serious though and I was hospitalized, mainly to keep me quiet and handy to help if something went wrong.
Can't say that I didn't enjoy the rest and the clean sheets!!

Thank you for your service Ise Mise honestly meant and felt
Life takes us places we never dreamed of
Unfortunately in my case helping TRY to pick up the pieces of once young men from that Asian war that came after yours
We owe a great deal to great numbers who in the end gave much more than time in ourservice, you will be aware of that

Well done Is Mise, & thanks.

Yes o sung wu, I agree totally about tropical jungle. I've walked through quite a few, & worked on the edge of them, & they are horrible things. Go into them & the only question is will you die, before your clothes rot off you.

Having seen the huge improvement in the living standard of the locals around Kimbe in New Britain, when jungle was replaced with palm oil plantations, I reckon those who try to prevent such development should be jailed for cruelty to the human race.

Thanks all; my only brush with the tropics was with tropical ulcers and that was on the North Coast of NSW (which is hardly tropical).

Very painful, I also treated a number of people so I was a sympathetic first aider.

Just as a matter of interest, how many of you have actually been assaulted or attacked in your own homes or elsewhere? As private individuals, not ex-policemen etc.

Just watched an American video about 'the best self-defence guns for seniors', with emphasis on weaker hands and so on. All demonstrated by a beefy looking bloke who wouldn't be much older than 40.

Judging by the recoil effect right back through his shoulders, real seniors should forget about handguns. Arthritis in both hands and lack of a permit rule out firearms for me anyway, but just yesterday I heard again on the radio that people trying to defend themselves with guns are more likely to shoot themselves than their assailants

I have not (yet) been physically assaulted but I had three break-ins & 4 cars stolen as well as my boat cleaned out of its four deep cycle batteries.
Also, had a brand new caravan with all my belongings in it stolen from a storage yard ?? (on hire purchase with full insurance yet SGIO said it was only insured for fire).
No insurance paid because Police didn't think it worthwile pursuing.
All up loss in the then value over the years $ 120,000.00

Ah, yeah, forgot to mention that "Life is what you make it".

Sorry to hear that, individual. But there was apparently nothing you could have done aboutmit. Besides, while you can get away with killing or wounding some who attacked you, in certain circumstances, it would be straight to jail if you did it over property.

Whether or not the police took any action should not affect insurance. They can give you an incident reference for the insurance company.

I saw that request, the silly one asking us to list our home invasions if any
Think with me here, why? are we saying bugger it I am ok? it never happened to me so it doesn't matter
Like ise miserables instistance I tell what I would do?
In a perfect world? nothing, it would not happen
But it does to dozens, who cannot defend themselves
And Often, too often, those who do it walk away scott free.

Hi IS MISE; BELLY & HASBEEN...

I reckon we could all wax lyrically with all the 'warries' we could tell when in the Military Forces? Most of mine were from around 50 to 75 feet above the jungle canopy, hanging out of a UH-1B chopper, like an idiot! You do some ridiculous things when you're young and stupid, on ops.? You do grow up very quickly after your first 'contact' or an ambush in my case. Where we deployed the manually fired intrepid M18A1's (Claymores), the results of which almost eviscerates your victims? Then we had to search them. God help us - it's not combat, it's a slaughter.

Yarns we could all tell our grandchildren, however, for anyone else above the age of four or five, they'd be mostly disbelieved. One of my enduring memories on active service - I bravely managed to climb up a large coconut tree, with their long straight trunks. My problem became evident when I couldn't get down again, not being able to find the tiny handholds and grips I had earlier, to ascend the thing? Worse, we were in an active area; which appeared to us (prima facie), relatively quiet. Nevertheless a better target than me; aloft, high up a coconut tree, I'd yet to behold. More evidence of the entrenched stupidity of the young?

o sung wo Sgt of police, at a forum about road trauma told us all [having seen far too much, he ex Navy, thought all acts of bravery happen because people act without thinking
Like to think he was wrong

Hi there BELLY...

Actually, I would tend to agree with him. Most acts of extreme courage I've witnessed was in combat. Whereas the person concerned went ahead and did what they did, without any thought of the consequences whatsoever. After which; upon reflection, they'd generally admit to us all, they could've been killed, and as such, were an utter idiot for doing what they did! They tend to do 'the act of bravery' contemporaneously with the immediate threat.

Belly,

I gather that you think that it was silly of me to ask if any posters have actually experienced assault or home invasion. I don't understand why you would think my question was silly. Please explain.

I also request that you explain why you think my question in any way suggests that I have a "bugger it, I'm OK" attitude to anyone who has suffered such indignities and crimes.

Can you do that, please? Or are you just going to continue shooting off your mouth without thinking?

Belly,

"Like ise miserables instistance I tell what I would do?"

Well, what would you do?

Your actions might well help some person who finds themselves in such a predicament.

ttbn,

Back in the days when I had a "Possess, Use and Carry" licence for a pistol (I was a Licenced Pistol Dealer, to allow me to do repairs), I had two incidents, both attempted robberies, first one was a bloke with a brick and the second one had a knife,
On each occasion, I just pulled my coat open and revealed the holstered revolver, both "would be"s took off,

After the first one, I told my local Sergeant and he asked me did I shoot him, and as the answer was "No', he said, "Then don't bother me I have enough paperwork as it is".

Looks like Belly prefers to continue to shoot his mouth off rather explain his assertions.

Is Mise,

I would think that that just the sight of a firearm would scare of most of the gutless gutless granny-bashers.

Even some Pepper spay would do the job but when you have Govt legislation that makes self defence a crime then it is clear where the problem emanates from !

God's waiting room seems to have moved to these pages
And for some enterlect has already passed away
I am determined to have both body and brain leave together, some I see have left it too late
Seems if I posted God Is great, the usual suspects would take offense and tell me it is not so
See the thread was not anti gun laws anti self protection, you tried to make it that
It was not about this mornings depressing news about elder abuse while in care of with relatives
It was and is a commentary on, [see the channel nine online newspage] the bashing of an eighty year old women
By clearly the dregs of humanity, a much younger woman
It was about such crimes against the defenseless
Not gun wielding grannys able to shoot and kill the milk man because they thought he was breaking in
ttbn, are you sure you want to continue you insults, baseless stupid childish unhinged insults
Do you really know what I think about you?
You never will, my ego is not in need of telling you, you Sir need help

Belly,

You really are too stupid to deal with. You are incoherent, ignorant and barely literate. You are a joke. Now, run off squealing to Graham about that.

There should be an intelligence test, or a type of licence for people to use OLO and all social media. Basic English comprehension and expression should be mandatory.

Belly,

Apart from everything else, you are apparently incapable of answering my questions -

"I gather that you think that it was silly of me to ask if any posters have actually experienced assault or home invasion. I don't understand why you would think my question was silly. Please explain.

I also request that you explain why you think my question in any way suggests that I have a "bugger it, I'm OK" attitude to anyone who has suffered such indignities and crimes.

Can you do that, please? Or are you just going to continue shooting off your mouth without thinking?"

You obviously cannot answer a straightforward, polite question about YOUR OWN comments. As you always do, you have tried blame someone else to hide your ineptitude. I thought that you might be capable of sensible behaviour if I diplomatically asked you to explain what you meant, but I was wrong. You are certainly a no-go area.

ttbn why?
What part does your question play in this thread
What will be gained if I answer
Is you question just a rebuttal of the threads intent
Nevertheless one of 16 kids my mum gave birth to, the eldest of eight who survived yes
Age about 18 a sisters boyfriend broke in the door
He never did so again
Do you want to see the blood?
After he ran away and tried to driveaway, with every glass in his FJ Holden broken there was a bit
Helpful?

Belly,

Why would I want an answer? If you have to ask that question, you are even further behind the eight ball than I thought. There is really no point in trying to engage you at all.

At last! we agree in saying so it is long past time this country did far more for those in need of mental health intervention

ttbn, while I agree that few people, young or old, could hit an intruder with a hand gun, the sight of one pointed their way is usually enough to put the average crim, of the type who specialises in attacking the weak, to flight.

Personally I am totally unable to draw my old 70Lb hunting bow, I can still to pull a trigger. The big bang should be enough. The real problem is the oldie who would hesitate too long before actually shooting.

//The real problem is the oldie who would hesitate too long before actually shooting.//

Another pair of Mormons bite the dust, goodbye, Elder Smith and Elder Jones.

Old Fart; "But Officer... I though it was Al Capone at the door, where are my glasses when I need them."

p/s How does one get blood out of white shirts?

In nine out of ten cases,The real problem is the oldie who actually shoots!

Paul,

Good to see that you are around, perhaps you'd be so good as to tell us why you would disarm the law abiding before disarming the criminals?

I've looked at the various Green's sites but whilst they have a lot to say about curbing legal ownership of firearms they have nowt to say about disarming the criminals and they are equally silent when it comes to terrorists.

Paul1405,
You just wait till you leave school & get out into a workforce, if someone will employ you that Is !
Things will appear different away from Mum's apron !

Issy, when that bloke shot you in the head, he probably seen you as a "home invader". Were you in someone else's "home"at the time?

Indy, you have fallen out of your tree again, please climb back in.

So grandmother who has been knocked down at the ATM and had her bag stolen is in the wrong, she should have carried a shot gun
Woman bashed in the isle inside a shop just because the offender could? gun lady!
Truth is firing a weapon while both eyes are closed will not be much help, to the check out chick killed at least
Still see the thread as a way to promote gun use by the frail, but know it is silliness

Hi Belly,

What the misguided on here advocate is virtually unrestricted gun laws, as practised in the US, where all are safe from gun violence, and there is never anything like mass shootings. These guys represent the Australian chapter of the NRA of America. Issy should fill us in on all the secret money they receive from the NRA, people bring in less that $10k at a time.

Paul,

Still evading the embarrassing questions, seems to be a habit with you and Belly is catching it too.

Belly,

Just to remind you and as you probably can't find your way to your OP.

"Past week, nearly every week has been one of home invasions and bashing of elderly homeowners
And after arrest you can be forgiven if you think the people arrested are the victims not the other way around
Why are the gutless younger people targeting the aged
Past week, nearly every week has been one of home invasions and bashing of elderly homeowners
And after arrest you can be forgiven if you think the people arrested are the victims not the other way around
Why are the gutless younger people targeting the aged
Why are we not protecting our elderly
Maybe if we consider recent court out comes we will start to think about these questions"

We are not protecting the elderly because of stupid, gutless laws that make it a criminal offence for them (or anyone else) to have anything for the purpose of self defence.

What would you do to protect the elderly?

As the initiator of this thread, you surely have some ideas.

Rarely find other than slightly unhinged thoughts in your posts ise miserable
Most of that was about your standard stuff BUT
Yes here are some thoughts, 12 months in prison, first offense no room for judges to change that
Education while in prison
Three years second offense, again no discounts, all time to be served
ICE confiscate all property and cash if found guilty first offense
Mandatory five years for every dealer
Public paid reward in cash, say a thousand dollars, for information leading to a conviction
From property and cash taken 80 percent go to paying costs of imprisonment 20 percent in to better policing fund
Paul, we can make a quid here,open cheap funeral parlors to handle the increase in innocent people being shot on the streets by armed geriatrics

Howdy Issy,

We have a police force to deal with home invaders, as we do with all crime, not vigilantes, or old farts with guns, no a police force.
Sorry about your "home invasion" experience back when that bloke tried to blow your head off, shameful. That's why it good to keep in your own back yard.

Thanks Paul will never understand why SOME think putting a gun in every hand will do what fully trained police can not
Not much thought behind claims victims in some way, should have protected themselves

So grandmother who has been knocked down at the ATM and had her bag stolen is in the wrong, she should have carried a shot gun
Belly,
No, way too cumbersome for an elderly person. One of those little 6 - 8 round .22's would suffice !

Belly,

That's not protection, that's punishment for the crime.

Now think hard, how would you protect the elderly from being the victims?

Paul,

Still up to par, you must get a kick out of making fun of the unprotected elderly.

Sorry about your "home invasion"
Paul1405,
Now there's a real deterrent that'll scare off any future intruders !

Many home invasions are not as random as first thought. Should put the takings in the bank, but if you're part of the cash economy and avoiding tax etc by stuffing the dosh from the take away business in the toilet cistern, then an occupational hazard could be criminals busting in and knocking the joint off. It pays to be honest.

I only know of two home invasions in my local area in over 30 years. One was drug related, the other involved the taking of $30k the home owner, who also had a business, had stashed in the ceiling. Word gets around.

Indy, me thinks you're safe, how do you invade a blokes home when he lives up a tree?

Paul1405,
I think you're even safer than I because any self-respecting moron thief will be too scared to target you for fear your silliness will rub off on him !

ise miserable you understand don't you?
That post was just plain silly?
You always, to me at least seem to be about a block and a half away from reality street
You asked me, that question
I answered with tougher laws prison terms no cuddling of the criminal who did it
Persistently you ask the same question but too refuse to see the answer as valid
Get well old fella

Issy, in your new bute Dodge City of the future, what position will those on Motorised Scooter hold. Will they be your mobile armoured division? Will the Grey Brigade have special uniforms? Please give me the plan, because like you I am also 100% committed to the cause of truth, justice, and the American way! Whatever that is, particularly if the NRA are picking up the bill, just don't forget the uniforms.

Belly,

What do you see as a way that the elderly can protect themselves?

Don't tell me that they can pass a law to punish the criminals, punishment comes after the crime, it's stopping the crime that is important.

Paul,

How are you and the other Greens getting on with disarming the criminals?

Nothings is going change. Nobody is going to be allowed to tote a gun on the strength of the very few attacks on the elderly. I would be more worried about a bunch of geriatrics waving guns about than I would the remote chance of getting assaulted. Attacks on the elderly have been blown out of all proportion by the irresponsible media - as usual.

Statistically, assaults on children aged under 15 are twice that of assaults of all people over that age. Most assaults on the elderly occur in institutions and family situations.

Let’s not forget: this thread was started by someone making a lot of assertions without any proof to back up those assertions

ttbn,

I don't want to see everybody toting a gun, all that I want to see is people being able to defend themselves; as it is now even mild non-lethal items are banned if the purpose of having them is self-defence.

Have a read of this;

"Police in Perth have decided not to charge a 77-year-old man who shot an intruder during an alleged burglary at his home in Herne Hill.

Police say two intruders forced their way into the home of Eugene Valenti and his bed-ridden wife last Wednesday night.

They say Mr Valenti armed himself with a shotgun, locked himself and his wife in a bedroom and warned the men he was armed.

The men forced their way in and, in the ensuing struggle, a shot was fired, wounding one of them.

Police believe Mr Valenti used reasonable force defending himself and his invalid wife and say his version of events is supported by forensic evidence gathered at the scene."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-02-23/elderly-man-who-shot-home-intruder-will-not-be/305300

Of course, the better outcome for some would have been for the intruders to bash the elderly man and rape his invalid wife and then murder them.

What is the country coming to when elderly folk can defend themselves and get away with it?

Paul and Belly,

What would you have done?

ise miserable question
Is the intent of current laws and terms of imprisonment not a method of saying we the community want this crime to end
Does it work
Maybe not always
As sane answer raise your blood pressure how about we are [as it seems you and other want]arm the elderly
Put a bounty on the heads of anyone younger than say 40?

Belly,

"Is the intent of current laws and terms of imprisonment not a method of saying we the community want this crime to end
Does it work
Maybe not always"

No maybe about it, but that is deterrence, what would you do in the face of an immediate attack, as the axe smashes through the door?

"As sane answer raise your blood pressure..."

Don't know, try me with a sane answer.

ise mise best you know a few things, competitive posts aimed at me rather than thoughtful discussion is time wasting
When, in any post in this thread, did I say we should not be able to defend ourselves
Did not happen your post has me grinning, that 77 year old did what I would want to do
See only in your mind is this thread other than a social commentary on the increasing crimes against the defenseless
To it screams my discontent with revolving door justice
It questions our very system of law when the costs of confinement seem to over rule victims rights

Belly,

See it wasn't hard, you've finally said what you would do.

"Did not happen your post has me grinning, that 77 year old did what I would want to do"

Congratulations.

Howdy doody Issy,

You assume the varmints have scaled my five metre high electrified perimeter fence, crossed the mine field where there once was a front lawn, avoided several well hidden booby traps where garden gnomes previously stood. Should they cut their way through my twelve inch armour plated steel reinforced front door, naturally I would do what any self respecting citizen would do, come out of my fox hole, open up with my AK-47, lob a few grenades in their general direction, plus a couple into Bill the Greeks pigeon coop next door, hate noisy bloody pigeons disturbing the piece and quite of the neighbourhood!
Should all else fail, mother will be at the ready with her five inch howitzer. At the end of all that I will tell them in no uncertain terms; "No! I'm not bloody interested in purchasing the 'Encyclopedia Britannica'"

Funny thing happened down at the bank the other day, I walked into my local branch as normal, except I was wearing my full battle dress, AK-47 at the ready, can't be to careful can you, you never know what nutters are about. Well customers, staff, even the manager were all yelling and screaming, jumping under counters and desks. I yelled out "I just want to make a withdrawal!" The manager said "take what you like, just leave us alone!" They must have had a mouse problem or something to get so fired up like they did, can't be to careful can you.

Issy, is it true you carried off the Charlton Heston Memorial Trophy for the fifth year in a row at the annual Turkey Shoot? Is it also true your newest bestest mate, Steve Dicko Dickson, has been appointed chief fund raiser for the Shooters and Hooters Party? Just asking.

Paul,

Cutting and pasting again?

No, no, Issy, all my own work! I take full credit. You haven't filled me in on that "home invasion" you were involved in. Don't tell me you were on the wrong side of the door when that bloke started shoot'n. I gotta admit, those Boers were a pesky breed!

You gotta understand Issy, I'd love ya even if use were a black fella!

Seriously Issy, the biggest crime against the aged is actually non violent crime. Cases where often hundreds of thousands of dollars, life savings, are defrauded from unsuspecting trusting old people. Then there are the daily crimes of neglect and mistreatment. What sort of gun do you recommend to deal with these far more common crimes committed against the most vulnerable in our community.

BTW, I just remembered when I was a kid I had a spud gun, I could fire potato pellets at people. Nasty child!

Paul,

"BTW, I just remembered when I was a kid I had a spud gun, I could fire potato pellets at people. Nasty child!"

Is it not said that the child is often the mirror of the adult?

If one plants potatoes one gets potatoes, all things being etc.

No-one ever discusses the crime that lets characters like Paul1405 lose on the public !

indy
Judge not least you be judged
We have flogged the subject into submission and turned in to ise miserables tails of discontent,with the world/Belly anyone left of Trump.

Hi there Indy,

My thinks you have fallen out of your tree again, hopefully landing on your head so no damage was done.

Do you have one of those motorised otto bins old farts are fond of whizzing around shopping centres on, to the annoyance of the general public. If you possess such a contraption then Issy would like you to enlist in his Grey Brigades Armoured Division. Before you know it, Issy will have you in hot pursuit of those pesky varmints he keeps sprooking about

motorised otto bins
Paul1405,
Uncanny you should bring that up. Your Labor voting QLG mates have just banned our annual soap box derby because it was too dangerous without a barrier for the public !

That's right Indy, the new word is BANNED, you gotta get used to it! Just post me a list of your favourite pastimes so I can forward it to my Labor voting mates at the QLG, ever who they are, for inclusion on the BANNED list.

Me thinks you have fallen out of your tree again. That's five times this week already, and its only Tuesday.

Falling out of a tree doesn't cause as much damage as having been dropped at birth & brought up by dope smokers !

Paul,

Have you found the Greens policy on disarming the criminals yet?

Indy! you may be onto something here did they smoke dop in 1945?
My mum said she dropped me on my head
Know those blokes who invented Jazz Rock and Roll smoked it but not sure mum did
Boxed my ears a few times after catching me smoking
Still loitering around on a current affairs online news site [free to read]
Is the very news story that was the last straw for me
80 Year old being BASHED by a subhuman women we could live without

Where do I start, a smorgasbord of mirth to be had at the expense of two of my favourite protagonist Issy and Indy! I only need the other member of the dynamic trio, Hassy, to pop on in and the three stooges would be complete. I can only imagine where Hassy is, probably locked himself in the chook pen once again, and can't get out.
Oh yes! having a snort or three of my favourite "Johnny", I never touch drugs, Oh yeah! Just listing to some of my favourite yum yum songs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q422O0CyDL4

Now to answer those all important serious questions;

"Have you (Paul) found the Greens policy on disarming the criminals yet?" Should I be looking Issy.

Not really a question.

"Falling out of a tree doesn't cause as much damage as having been dropped at birth & brought up by dope smokers!" I don't hold that against you Indy. Its probably the cause of your constant falling out of your tree today. So who dropped you at birth? Dope smoking Mum, or was it dope smoking Dad. Could have been a joint effort, forgive the pun.

If your steam powered puter' has sound, just play my song above and it will make you feel better.

Sorry Belly, there seems to be a lot of that dropsy complaint going around these days. Issy admits to being a "home invader" himself, he travelled 8,000km to do it, but all's well that ends well

Paul,

"Have you (Paul) found the Greens policy on disarming the criminals yet?" Should I be looking Issy."

Yes, because you want to remove all firearms from society (you said so) and the logical point to start is with the criminals.

So how are you going to do it?

So how are you going to do it?

Paul1405,
How about telling us your strategy on this, don't keep us in suspense !

Paul may I based on my understanding of both posters questioning you here is my view of what they would approve of
Rabbit traps around every old folks house or home
Eight shot repeating shotguns handed out free once you turn 60
Atms that shoot dead offenders
Mobility scooters to have 10 mm gun fitted free of charge
Cremation, while alive, for all who offend

You are asking two different questions. On the one hand you ask me to find Greens policy, on the other hand you ask what would I do to disarm criminals. Greens policy you can find for yourself, as for me I would declare an amnesty to allow all guns to be handed in, the only exceptions would be police, military and those relatively small number seen as professionally requiring a gun. After the amnesty all those non excepted are class as criminal, with appropriate prison terms imposed on these villeins. Five to 10 years jail for being in possession, to an additional 10 to 20 years on top for those using a gun to commit other offences such as armed robbery or home invasion.

Paul,

As you are an admitted Green I thought that you would be sprouting Greens' policy.
I've looked and the Greens have no policy on disarming criminals, and you have offered no explanation as to how you would disarm them.
Criminals, by definition, do not obey the law. So pass all the laws you like but the question remains, how would you disarm the criminals?

You said earlier that you'd support the removal of all guns from society, why are you now reneging, why would the police need guns in a society where you have disarmed the criminals?

Belly,

That was a very humerous post.

Paul surely you know
Ise misery guts asks dumb questions, because he lacks the ability to address the subject
Indy? good bloke but not sure what the subject is
Funny thing is, in every case I know of, from elder abuse to hand bag snatching thugs, its is,if anyone is armed, the criminal not the victim
Now stepping outside the rules the Charlie Chuckles club want to impose on this subject
Just MAYBE sure and certain terms in prison
No revolving door justice, walking free
And more care for the welfare of our aged is a start on fixing this

Is Mise,

What you say about laws and criminals stands for everyone. We cannot rely on the law to protect us. Laws do not stop nasty things from happening. All laws can do is provide an opportunity to punish lawbreakers if they are caught. Even then, the pathetic penalties handed down by gutless judges and magistrates are no incentive to do the right thing. So, the law is definitely an ass in just about every situation. Hence the frustration on this subject, which I fully understand. However, it's going nowhere, and I don't see any solution, except for the acceptance that we can no longer take personal safety for granted, and it's up to each of us to be extra careful.

Belly,

You just said "Funny thing is, in every case I know of, from elder abuse to hand bag snatching thugs, its is,if anyone is armed, the criminal not the victim"

That's not true because I gave you the example of the elderly gent in WA who used his shotgun to protect his invalid wife; so you know of that instance.

Under Paul's desires the poor bloke would have been bashed or murdered and his wife 'collateral damage'.

Anyhow , how would you disarm the criminals, a practical solution, no airy fairy laws that they will ignore.

Of course you could appeal to their better nature.

Sorry but the last two posts highlight not understanding the problem is a problem in its own right
I question my questioners [ttbn not you it is clear you are grazing another paddock]
How would you ise mise protect the aged from being victims of worthless criminals targeting them, details please

Belly,

You're slipping, not a convoluted sentence in that post at all.

Answering a question with a question is a sign of floundering.

But to answer your question, I would allow the aged such manner of defence as they could handle.
Personally I prefer a walking stick.

Issy, I don't assume all the guff you spout on the forum is Shooters and Hooters Party policy, you did say you were a founding member, they have tons of their own guff to spout.

When we reach "Nirvana" we will have no need for police or the military, etc, they will be redundant. Until then, once the amnesty period is over, depending on its success, there could be much work for law informant catching up with the criminal gun owning class. I would hope you would not put yourself outside the law, and end up in the slammer for 5 or 10 years. But given your criminal history you mentioned I'm not too sure!

Paul,

By now everyone realises that you are full of hot air, you can't think of anyway to disarm the criminals, no wonder the Greens don't have any policy on it.

Good to know though that they and you would have disarmed the old bloke in WA and let the home invaders do whatever they liked.

The NSW Greens would let any farmers' wives bear the dire consequences of a home invasion whilst they are home alone, denying them the use of their licences firearms for personal protection.

Of course you and the Greens and the State of NSW would allow them to use their guns to protect the chooks but apparently in your collective philosophy farmers wives are less important than the chooks.

Ise misery guts answer the question
A poster here has used that line so very often but not answered one asked of him
As a font of all knowledge it should be a walk in the park
What would you do to stop crimes against the aged
Crimes that take place because that person is defenseless

The Govt should explore the viability of using Paul1405 as a source of power with all his hot air !

Belly,

"But to answer your question, I would allow the aged such manner of defence as they could handle.
Personally I prefer a walking stick."

That was the answer that I gave you; are you suffering from short term memory loss?

shallow ise mise, but that is what you are so guess it will have to do
Paul old indy seems to have a grudge, not sure he can remember why but it just maybe you know a bit more than him
Test, TV a current affair,last night, look it up on nines web page
Older woman, with cancer
Let her home to one person, who let another move in and left the property
That second person never had a lease or rental agreement, now squatting claims to own the home
ONE why can the law not help this woman
TWO why is she living in a caravan with terminal cancer while a far younger troglodyte lives in her home
THREE law/justice both blind why

ise mise see the question? thoughts? annoying isn't it? answer the question

Belly,

"ise mise see the question? thoughts? annoying isn't it? answer the question"

Huh?

Funny that no one bothered to check the facts in the story of the 11 year old girl shooting two intruders as posted by individual, Wednesday, 5 June 2019 7:31:25 PM.

Never happened.

Paul and Belley, you should have picked this up.

Gullible?

Maybe we should let the thread do what every thread does in the end, die
The conversation has become a tit for tat wander away from any real concerns about the crime
No real effort to say how we stop it,just a childlike my dad is bigger than yours kids argument
My thanks to all contributors

Issy, not much interested in what Indy posts, the lad keeps falling out of his tree and its cause him certain cranium problems.

Here's something right up your ally Issy. The Gunnies new craze; "The Jelly Blaster Gun". You buy this ridiculous gun that looks like an AK-47 or M16 or some such rubbish. You and your mates then proceed to have "fun" by blasting away at each other with jelly blobs. Issy have you got your 'Jelly Blaster Gun' yet?

They are illegal in NSW and Vic, but legal in Qld and SA where they are classed as a "projectile toy" sounds like a sex aid. Its my understanding that in Qld, if caught in public with your 'Jelly Blaster' you may be charged with the offence of "causing public fear". It looks like the morons in Queensland and SA who own a 'Jelly Blaster' will have to be satisfied with taking pot shots at mum, the kids and grandma as they watch the telly in the lounge room. Dodge City here we come!

BTW, The latest research has revealed the IQ of the average gunnie is TLA.

Paul,

All jelly blasters should be subject to licencing/registration, along with water pistols/guns.

Do the Greens have a policy on the very dangerous water guns?

Belly,

You asked, "Why are we not protecting our elderly"

Well, the answer is that to protect the elderly with immediate response would be too costly and frankly we elderly are not economically worth the expense.

To overcome this aspect of the problem the elderly should be allowed whatever means of self-protection that is appropriate to their circumstances.

It boils down to the facts that if the State won't spend the money then those immediately concerned should legally be allowed some form of self-defence.

Do you disagree?

How ya be there Issy,

I take it you have a 'Jelly Blaster Gun', may I suggest raspberry jelly blobs in your gun. Not realistic to hit Granny in the back of the head with say a pineapple Jelly blob when you taking a pot shot at her pegging out the washing, no realism with yellow jelly! You want the red stuff for true effect, you'll get that with raspberry. Then Granny might look good splatted with port wine jelly, my personal favourite. Agree!

p/s Do you have the AK-47 or the M16?

Tried closing the thread down, see my ego is not part of it going this long
But ise mise asked an intelligent question
Even posted something I agree with, for the most part
Protecting the aged, everyone, from crimes of gutless opportunists, or the completely worthless is no easy job
But if law and order is not the place to start what is?
So imprisonment, first offense no other option
Confiscate all property,if any, to pay in full [whenever possible] costs of confinement
Defenseless people being bashed and robbed is a new low
We have every right, even a duty,to be harsh in return

Paul,

Grow up. Jelly blasters and water guns can project harmful and dangerous material.
They can both shoot acid/alkaline and combustible material.

How would you defend yourself from a good squirt from a 'Soaker' loaded with brake fluid?

Belly,

Laws do not deter the determined/aberrant criminal, pass all the laws you like and home invasions, bashing the aged etc. will continue the only real deterrent is if people are encouraged to protect themselves, because the police cannot do so.

Water blasters. I try to discourage noisy Indian doves with one, and I have to hold the thing almost vertically to hit a dove within 15 yards.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-23/violent-thieves-target-elderly-tasmanians-in-their-homes/11236844
What ise mise weapon should this 91 year old have been using against her attacker

Getting a bit touchy there Issy, the childish ones are these gunnie fools who get perverted childish pleasure from running around like Rambo shooting each other with jelly blobs. I happen to "pass by" one of these jelly gun shops in my local area, and fair dinkum the bloke behind the counter looked like Ivan Milat jr. he had the moustache like Ivan, and was wearing a silly cowboy hat Milat also wore. If they are as dangerous as you say, according to the local press, the shop sold 40 such guns on opening day.

Belly,

As I said anything appropriate, but you and the law forbid the elderly, and anyone else, from having ANYTHING for the purpose of self-defence.

Paul,

I have been against weapons capable of projecting hurtful material, such as brake fluid, vinegar and other acids etc. since before the current gun laws.

Do a bit of research and you'll find out the harm that they can do.
http://hiconsumption.com/2018/08/best-water-guns/

Appalling stuff.

not sure how you include me in your war to arm every one
Never proposed any thought against it
Buy yes am against it
Tell me, honestly, that 91 year old can't even remember the attack
How could she defend herself
And tell me, if caught, the offender [who targeted her because she couldn't fight back] should not serve time for that

Belly,

"not sure how you include me in your war to arm every one"

When have I ever said that I want to arm everyone?

Issy,

For argument sake, please tell, of those aged 65 and over, who should be licenced to own a firearm for so called self protection?

Paul,

Anyone who meets the lawful requirements but as there are no lawful
requirements, i.e. no one is allowed to possess anything for self-defence, then, legally, no one.

I'll keep my walking stick.

Sidestepping there Issy, given a change to the law on self protection, would the majority be given a licence?

PAUL,

"Sidestepping there Issy, given a change to the law on self protection, would the majority be given a licence?"

That would depend on the changes to the law and the requirements thereunder.

Now Issy you are being coy. Obviously I'm referring to what changes to the gun laws you support to allow for self defence. With the real objective of the Shooters and Hooters Party the abolition of ALL gun laws, then as a founding member its something you are duty bound to support.
Guns in primary schools, guns even in babies bassinets, old fogies with guns, the list goes on, would be the norm under a gunnie regime. No need to answer the question, its obvious EVERYONE!

Latest news; "Police are searching for a shooter on Queensland's Gold Coast after a man was shot in the arm on a hotel balcony from a neighbouring apartment."

"A 24-year-old man who allegedly shot a couple in a terrifying suburban confrontation on a Brisbane street has been charged with weapons offences."

This is the kind of Dodge City stuff YOU support.

This morning's news, two men in their 70,s fought of a man seemingly under the influence of some thing
He was trying to take a van after attempting to take several cars
Weapon they used?to fight him off? coffee mug!

Paul,

"With the real objective of the Shooters and Hooters Party the abolition of ALL gun laws,"

More Greens lies, kindly give a reference.

I'll ask you what I asked Belly when have I ever advocated the arming of everyone?

Give a reference to that if you can.

ise mise you have not to my knowledge but be honest you do seem to call for a lesser gun laws than we have
Old mate you too seem fixated on the elderly being armed but are you sure that is even near a good idea
We would have about ten needless deaths a year
Old dear near here took her neighbor to court for AVO, true, and won, because the branches in a tree he had frightened her in the wind at night,true
She may have killed him or the tree if she had a gun

Belly,

"ise mise you have not to my knowledge but be honest you do seem to call for a lesser gun laws than we have
Old mate you too seem fixated on the elderly being armed but are you sure that is even near a good idea"

I often call for more logical and fairer gun laws but that does not mean weaker laws and I'm not fixated on the elderly being armed but on a more level playing field where people, elderly or not, are allowed at least non-lethal means of self-defence.

As it is it's all the criminals way.

ise mise it is not something I like, but it is true John Howard was a good Prime Minister
He held blue collar workers in his hands, they, like most Australians, still think his gun laws are great
He read the minds of voters, I as a sporting shooter, no longer, have seen far less dead roadside signs
Less dead livestock on the paddock fence line as yobbo weekend warriors blasted everything
A civil Society demands some control on who can, and who can not, own a gun
At a gun shop, with a very active sporting shooter, to top up his ammo for a week long pig hunt,
We saw the scruffiest bloke in Newcastle want to buy a pistol, to he told us, frighten the life out of a local cop

Belly,

John Howard said that he hated guns and caused draconian and illogical laws to be enacted.

Many of the so-called National Laws are at best, stupid and at worst designed to annoy people.

For some reason, you avoid any reference to people being able to defend themselves with non-lethal weapons.

Issy, you like to call our gun laws stupid, most Australians don't agree with you. Stupid is the likes of Steve Dickson and the way he was pissing his pants with excitement thinking Yank gun money would get him into power. You might prefer American style (no) gun laws, where mass shootings are common place, Australian are not willing to entertain mass murder so a few "fruit cakes" can get their jollies with guns.

BTW, great result for The Greens in the Senate, 6 seats won, the Shooters and Hooters didn't get a look in. The gun supporting grubs Anning and Leyonhjelm are no more.

BBTW at the next election there is every possibility the Green numbers in the Senate could go to 12.

Some of the Forums far out old scrags must be "over the Moon" with the re-election of Sarah Hanson-Young in SA, and my friend Mehreen Faruqi winning in NSW. Probably wont read this, I see they are busy on another thread complaining that the can't park their 'Zimmer Frames' down at the supermarket.

PAUL,

Many people are elated that Sarah Sea Patrol got back in, that means that the sum of intelligence among the Greens has been kept low.

Then there is the comedy element, no one can beat her at that.

Long may she represent the Greens.

Have you found yet where I advocate arming everyone?

Happy hunting!!

ise mise nevertheless your thoughts are out of touch with Australians
I a unionist who in the end worked very hard to remove him [workchoices] know he was an outstanding politician
Maybe you get your thoughts from Fox/Sky, let me assure you they are not representative
We would have many more needless deaths if we ever took your path
We however never ever will, in time even gun city, America will adopt a less rights to own a gun policy

Belly,

"We would have many more needless deaths if we ever took your path"

There you go again; what is my path?

Why won't you answer the question on why people should not be allowed non-lethal means of defence?

Why are you on the criminals' side?

I thought that you started this thread to discuss the plight of the aged who are/might be attacked.

Sorry no true, I just can not work you out, see every time you put such a just dumb question it is my view you seem childlike
Do you agree judging on only YOUR posts you are pro gun
Have you, time and again, in just this thread, called for more to be armed
Mate lets try to get along, you judge me on what I say, fair enough, let me judge you on what you say

Belly,

"Have you, time and again, in just this thread, called for more to be armed"

No, if you mean firearms, what I have called for, time and again, is for people to be allowed something for defence.

Obviously, you don't think that anyone, elderly or not, should be allowed even non-lethal means of defence.

Why are you against non-lethal means?

We differ on everything ise mise, and I pose these truths
Started this thread after a few too many assaults on the elderly or frail, by youth to about 25 year olds
Not one of the cases I had in mind was the victim capable of defending themselves not one
My mind still sees an 80 year old lady on her back on the ground, a younger feral women having ASSAULTED HER WITHOUT REASON
You seem in attack mode, wanting to deny my claims are true or tell me they could have defended themselves?
How? with what? that eighty year old had I been there and if my body would let me, think it would, would have had protection, me, such feral things as her attacker even if mentally ill should be locked up.

Belly,

Do you or do you not think that people should be allowed to defend themselves?
If you do, do you think that they should, legally, be allowed some means of defence?

It's quite simple really, do you think that the elderly and others should just take it and shut up?

Issy, you know full well a person can take reasonable steps to defend themselves under the existing law. Its misleading to say that someone can attack you, and you simply have to cop it.
//It's quite simple really, do you think that the elderly and others should just take it and shut up?// That's already covered by the existing laws.

//Do you or do you not think that people should be allowed to defend themselves?// Yes

//If you do, do you think that they should, legally, be allowed some means of defence?// Not to carry some offensive weapon 24/7 on the off chance that they might be attacked. The question is too broad so the answer is no.

Issy one for you. A kid stealing apples from your apply tree. Should it be your legal right to take your AK-47, or some such weapon, and blow the little blighter out of the branches?

Paul'

"//If you do, do you think that they should, legally, be allowed some means of defence?// Not to carry some offensive weapon 24/7 on the off chance that they might be attacked. The question is too broad so the answer is no."

The question is not too broad at all, note the word "legally" which indicates some means of defence sanctioned by Parliament.

Regarding the kid in the apple tree, I'd let him have all the apples he wanted.

Bye the way, have you got some fixation against quotation marks?

How are you going on finding some reference to me wanting everyone to be armed?

Issy, you know full well, that under existing law, if attacked you can take reasonable steps to defend yourself. Do you support the existing law?

I again ask how many of the victims we talk of here could defend themselves
Even if they had an eight shot shotgun?
And to what degree
Should that eighty year old, if able to regained her feet, have blown the head off her feral aracker

Paul,

Of course I support the existing law, stupid and inadequate as it is, but under existing law it is unlawful to keep anything for the purpose of self-defence, even non-lethal things; do you support the complete disarming of the citizens?

What have you and the Greens done towards disarming the criminals?

Belly,

If you'd download Grammarly or a similar FREE product you'd not post: "...her feral aracker".

Do yourself and the rest of us a favour and download.

Hi Belly, the aim of the gunnies in Australia is to get as many guns as possible into the community. These people rely on the financial support of the American NRA. The NRA's stated aim is "guns for all", regardless of the consequences. By putting guns in people hands, only results in them firstly, shooting themselves, number two, shooting family members, number three, shooting innocent people, and occasionally somewhere down the list, shooting the bad guy.

Many of the licensed gun owner have time and again showed their irresponsibility with guns. They just can't be trusted to do the right thing.

Issy, I completely understand everything Belly posts. An example of a "feral aracker" is that bloke down at your gunnie club with a loaded AK-47 pointed in your direction! Get my drift....Freedom of speech for all, down with the oppressors!

Paul,

"Hi Belly, the aim of the gunnies in Australia is to get as many guns as possible into the community. These people rely on the financial support of the American NRA"

That old lie again?

Aren't you sick of being asked to shew some proof?

Where's the proof?

"Many of the licensed gun owner have time and again showed their irresponsibility with guns. They just can't be trusted to do the right thing."

Many?

According to the ACIC there were
816,000 licence holders in Australia as of 2016, the number is now estimated to be slightly over a million.

Some statistics, please, to back your claim.

So go for it and while you're at it tell us all where I advocated arming everyone with firearms.

I'll understand if you can't do so, even you may find it impossible to do the impossible.

Dearest Issy,

Unfortunately for the gunnies, their most recent plot to bring millions of NRA dollars into Australia to finance a political takeover failed when it was exposed to all the World on the TV! Steve Dicko Dickson, leading gunnie, didn't get the big bucks as planned, this resulted in the Shooters and Hooters party crashing and burning at the last Federal election.

As for the wrong thing being done by gunnies, the newspapers are full of it on a daily basis!

Paul,

Just a reference or two to back up your Green lies would be appreciated.

Whilst you're searching you might also look for an example of me advocating guns for everyone; can't you back up your assertion?

You have my deepest sympathy in your futile quests.

Okay Issy, for the umteeth time a reference as requested; Moree Farmer Ian Turnbull (licensed gun owner) jailed for 35 years for murdering environmental officer Glen Turner, a shocking crime using a licensed firearm. Now are you satisfied. Licensed gun owner Steve Dickson trying to cadge money from a foreign organisation the NRA, caught on television. Satisfied a reference or two!

And I didn't even mention grand theft apples by you know who!

Paul,

Thank you for that telling reference, that's 1 in 1,000,000 and Turnbull, being a farmer was on the Greens list of approved firearm owners.

"Licensed gun owner Steve Dickson trying to cadge money from a foreign organisation the NRA, caught on television. Satisfied a reference or two! "

But he didn't get any money so your allegation that the US NRA funds the firearm lobby in Australia is nowt but "taurus excretum".

How are you going on referencing your allegation that I want to arm everyone?

Having any luck?

Issy, when the boys misbehave with their toys, there is only one alternative, we take their toys away from them, and put them in the CRUSHER! That's the toys not the boys.

p/s When you applied for your gun licence, did you mention your life of crime? Re Grand Theft Apples. Its apples today, banks tomorrow in my book, we must nip crime in the bud!

pps Then there was the wombat killer, NSW number one gunnie, and used car salesman. The Grand Poobar himself....Tony Azzi.

Paul,

"pps Then there was the wombat killer, NSW number one gunnie, and used car salesman. The Grand Poobar himself....Tony Azzi."

That's 2 out of 1,000,000.

The number of people killed with licenced firearms is far outweighed by the number killed in cars/other vehicles that have hit the trees by the roadside that are so beloved and protected by the Greens.

Note that when new motorways are constructed trees are not planted right next to the roadway.

Paul in highlighting that murder by a farmer of a man doing his job, you too prove not everyone should have a gun
And that some seem to think murder is ok, the dead man had a wife and he is missed still
While that farmers family remain very rich and probable are still clear felling trees

Paul,

You've had over two days, surely it's not that hard to find a reference to something that you have stated as facf time and again.

Need a few more days?

Get Belly to help you.

Paul,

Five days now.

Issy, can you give a reference to the reference which you are banning on about.....please! And as always I will oblige you.

Paul,

You're the one who said that I want to arm everyone, that statement of your's is false.

I'd like you to give a reference to back up your wild assertion.

The ball is in your court.

Hi Issy, if you could please give me a reference to where I said that, so I can evaluate the context of the statement, and of course the interpretation and meaning of the word "everyone" as applied. Such as in the case of me saying "I'm going to invite EVERYONE to my party!" Of course I'm not going to literally invite every person in the world to my party, but only persons of a certain character such as friends and relatives, so not in the literal sense everyone.

Now, maybe one or more of the following synonyms may be of use once we find the particular reference in establishing the contexual use of the word EVERYONE.

everybody, every person, each person, each one, each and every one, all, one and all, all and sundry, the whole world, the world at large, the public, the general public, people everywhere; informal every Tom, Dick, and Harry, every man jack, every mother's son.

I'm glad we are making progress on this inquiry of yours

Paul,

Obfuscation will get you nowhere.