On the passing of Bob Hawke, the best Labor PM, one must remember not only his social reforms but his economic reforms in lowering taxes and opening the economy. Bill Shorten is trying to do pretty much the opposite while still laying claim to his legacy.

Hawke was the only Labor PM in the past 50 years.

Trying to score a political point with the election only a day away Shadow. "Shorten is no Bob Hawke". The Silver Bodgie had the runs on the board, Shorten is yet to step into the top job and prove himself. According to you its a Coalition victory tomorrow, so he wont get the chance.

Lovem' or hatem' at least the Labor Party and their leaders will get in there and have a go. Unlike the Frasers, Howards, Abbotts, Turnbulls and Morrisons, members of the Do Nothing Party with do nothing leaders.

Bill Shorten has much in common with Bob Hawke.
Shorten's trade union background is an asset,
just as it was for Bob Hawke. It gives Bill
Shorten the experience to achieve consensus with
business, unions, and community-based organisations
for the challenges that lie ahead.

The former PM Bob Hawke even wrote a letter urging
voters to back Bill Shorten and his team on
Saturday.

Mr Hawke pointed out that Mr Shorten's front bench
was the best Labor team since the one he led in the
1980s and that they were the only party offering
stability (and genuine policies).

We've seen how over the past six years the Liberals
have had 3 leaders - Labor has had one, and 3
treasurers - while Labor has had one Shadow Treasurer.

As Hawke stated - "Ïf you can't govern yourselves. You
can't govern the country."

Bob Hawke also endorsed Labor's economic plan early on.

We've seen the mess, the in-fighting, the non-achievement,
party members leaving in droves, that is the Liberal
Party today. Trust has been broken for the voters.

It is time for a change - and giving a stable, united team
with an experienced negotiator as a leader a chance to
prove their worth a go. To continue to back the same
disunified party whose only talent appears to be that of
attack - would be insane. You expect different results
from a party doing the same thing over and over again.

I had a lot of time for Bob Hawke, even though he was a drunk and a faithless husband, and Labor. He was the sort of bloke it was hard not to like; and he was a good PM who believed in things (unlike the current pair of chimps). These chimps can't be compared with him. They are completely lacking in personality; they are not fair dinkum, like Bob was (politically). They are are there for themselves. They are just no damn good, and they never will be.

In my lifetime, there have been only two good Prime Minister's. Bob Menzies and Bob Hawke. Neither would last two minutes today, and that is a sad reflection on our dumbed-down, uncaring society.

I think Hawke was the only politician who had a fair idea what the original Labor doctrine was all about & I don't think he envisaged the ALP's hand-out mentality !

WTF are you on about, individual? What handouts do Labor now support that they didn't in the Hawke era?

Bob Hawke gave up drinking when he announced
that he planned to stand for the seat of
Wills in 1980. The rest as they say is history.

With his years of economic and industrial
relations experience behind him Hawke felt
completely ready to be PM.

He became a political leader of the likes
Australia had never seen.

Alcohol free, but with all of his brash charm and
deep self-belief intact - hysteria followed him almost
everywhere.

Bob Hawke wrote an open letter to voters calling on
them to vote for Bill Shorten and his team at
Saturday's election.

It's a shame that he did not live to see whether
this will happen - but one thing's for sure
Bob Hawke firmly believed that Bill Shorten with
his experience will be able to achieve consensus
with business, unions, and community-based
organisations for the challenges that lie ahead.

Bob Hawke pointed out that Bill Shorten's front bench
was the best Labot team since the one he led in the
1980s and that they were the only party offering
stability.

His opinion needs to be valued - as his record speaks for
itself.

Foxy,

You say:

"His opinion needs to be valued - as his record speaks for
itself".

Yes. Hawke did have a good record himself; but he was 89 years old when he recommended Shorten,and given that great age and his lifetime of heavy drinking, I could not say his advise about anything could be relied on. He is worthy of respect for his own political deeds, but not so much for his recommendations about a person whose actions to date have been the antithesis of his own.

Not really relevant to Bob's Prime ministership and his undoubted skills, but I cannot accept that he went without alcohol entirely during his long premiership.

Foxy,

Hawke probably thought that Shorten was a two faced backstabber, but he is hardly going to say so.Even Krudd and Juliar were out singing his praises when they would rather cut his balls off.

Shorten's union background of ripping workers penalty rates away for a union backhand is very different from Hawke's. Neither did Hawke have a rape accusation outstanding.

P.S. there looks like the accuser has enough evidence to lay charges??

Tomorrow two things are likely,a Labor win, not assured but likely
And that Shorten has a plan he knows he must restore trust in Labor Ability to stop the boats
And too keep our country's economics under control
Scomo, has run a good race, on his own, he had no choice, the internal war is only in recess, it will blow up again tomorrow night and continue for weeks

Belly,

Are you talking about the internal war in Labor? Will backstabber Bill feel Albo's blade?

ttbn,

What you accept or don't is up to you.
You are entitled to believe whatever you choose.
However I prefer facts - not opinions or beliefs.

The facts speak for themselves. Bob did give up
alcohol - and drank only non alcoholic drinks
after 1980. His wife, family, friends, acquaintances,
have all testified to that.

Also -

From all reports his state of mind was still
first class right up to the end. People who were
with him have confirmed this.

He also got to know Bill Shorten over time and was
aware of Bill's capabilities and background.
Hawke knew Shorten when he became Victorian
Secretary of the Australian Worker's Union in 1998
and National Secretary 3 years later. He also got
to know Shorten when Shorten won pre-selection and
a seat in Parliament and when Shorten was Parliamentary
Secretary and Minister during the Rudd-Gillard years,
spear-heading the creation of NDIS.

Bob Hawke would not have written an open letter to
voters calling on them to vote for Bill Shorten and
his team at Saturday's federal election if he didn't
think they were the best choice for the country.
Of that we can be certain.

AS Bob Hawke wrote:

"" While Bill's political opponents argue his trade union background is a liability for a future PM - I consider
it an asset as it was for me."

"It gives him the experience to achieve consensus with
business, unions, and community-based organisations for
the challenges that lie ahead."

Of course, as a man who devoted his life to labour, then Labor, who else could or would Bob Hawke recommend? Scott Morrison? He's the only option. If the biggest nitwit in the Labor party was the prime ministerial candidate, BH would still have to recommend him. And, I wouldn't dream of suggesting that he actually hasn't recommended the biggest nitwit.

For anyone interested in signing a condolence book
for Bob Hawke which will be presented to Hawke's
family Bill Shorten invites all Australians to
pay tribute to Bob Hawke in a national condolence book.
The following link explains:

http://mygc.com.au/bill-shorten-invites-australians-to-pay-tribute-to-bob-hawke-in-national-condolence-book/

Bob Hawke did not write an open letter to voters
for anyone else.

Foxy,

“The facts speak for themselves. Bob did give up
alcohol - and drank only non alcoholic drinks
after 1980. His wife, family, friends, acquaintances,
have all testified to that”.

They could all have been drunk (or lying), too.

I'm trying very hard to be conciliatory, Foxy, but I have to say you don't make it easy when you advise that I am “entitled to believe whatever (I) CHOOSE”, but you prefer FACTS, even though you don't have any facts, just hearsay. There was no “testifying”, no proof. Unless you were with Bob Hawke, yourself, 24/7, you simply don't know what went on behind closed doors any more than I do. And you seem to be totally aware of the hold alcohol has over people. It's not something a person with Hawke's drinking history can just put aside. He had a serious drinking problem.

You are also entitled to think what you wish about what. But you give the impression that everyone else is wrong, and you are right. An unfortunate trait in people trying to convince others to listen to them.

Now, you will not believe a thing I say. You've had your vote, and it's all over for you. No need to carry like a butcher's magpie until the next election.

ttbn,

I've expressed what I've learned from what's on
record. What I have researched, and what
I have read from several of Hawke's
biographies.

The facts that I have garnered - have been
resourced. Yours I assume are based on your
opinions only.

However, as I stated - I'm not arguing with
you. I'm merely stating what I have learned.

You are of course - entitled to disagree with me.

It makes for robust discussions.

cont'd ...

I forgot to make it clear that Bob Hawke gave
up alcohol around 1980 - and he did not drink
during the entire time he was PM. Graham
Richardson amongst others testifies to that.
However what he did after he left parliament
is of course open to question.

If anything, Hawke's passing is a reminder of the motivation behind the ALP - to improve things for the majority and to drag the country into the present and not leave it as a rotting financial carcass to be picked over by corporate sponsors and mates.

Bob was out of the box, I will idolise him forever
Unlike most here I could once call Shorten mate
He is brilliant, and if he gets the chance will see his poll numbers skyrocket
He is a true Labor reformer, once the weight of pulling a bruised party to an election win is over he will impress most

Dear Belly,

Fingers crossed for tomorrow.

Belly, a sad loss, firstly to his family, then to Australia, and of cause to the Labor Party. Bob Hawke, ably assisted by Paul Keating did so much to improve Australia. Bob was not right all the time, he had his flaws and he made mistakes, as all us humans do, but the positives certainly outweigh the negatives by a big margin.

Nice words from John Howard today, he moved up a notch in my opinion of him. I cannot say the same for Tony Abbott who tried to give a Liberal Party slant to Hawke, with an eye on tomorrows election. Hawke would have chewed up Abbott and spat him out! One a PM of great achievement, the other a grubby failure as PM, in every sense of the word.

Foxy/Paul up early a bit of a drive to my booth
SMH has an interesting poll
It confirms the 51/49 from early in the week
But too tells us Labors lead is much bigger in Victoria
Bigger but not as big in NSW
Not too bad in QLD and WA
So it looks ok to me, we need change, we need true change, like an end to fear tactics and addressing policies during campaigns, enjoy the day
We make history today

Hi Belly,

I have a bit of running around to do this morning, then 12 to 6pm doing a local booth for The Greens. Only new in the area so not sure of the situation, re bods to help out. They tell me this election has been their best for coverage, and all booths will be covered all day, according to the roster. The Greens had the pre-polls well covered. My booth needs 3 people, rather large, got a Labor lady (the wife) in a green tee shirt to help out.

Wont say good luck, luck isn't what's need. What we need is Australia to make the right choice and get a Shorten/Labor government and send a message loud and clear to the mugs running the show at the moment, they are not wanted!

Thanks to Bob Hawke, I missed two of the very few things I watch on the ABC last night: Killing Eve and Silent Witness. The old bugger couldn't do the right thing and die mid-week. On the other hand, a much more important person than Bob, Doris Day, died at 97 this week without interfering with people's entertainment.

Labor supporters should give thought to what Johnny Cash sang, when they

(Fall) into a burning ring of fire
(Going) down, down, down
as the flames get higher
And it burns, burns, burns
The ring of fire …. after Shorten and the unions get control.

In a short time, they will realise that:

That they are going 'down, down, down as the flames grow higher, and (Labor) 'burns, burns, burns in a ring of fire’.

All because they 'fell for (Bill) like a child’, and he is 'wild’.

And the rest of us will be remembering, without affection, those galahs who dragged us into the fire with them.

The Left violence continues, with a Liberal volunteer being stabbed in the stomach with a corkscrew in Warringah electorate. No doubt about the Left's penchant for violence, often accompanied by alcohol and drugs.

Yep, well short of Hawke in vision and ability. Thankfully he wont get the chance to demonstrate his abundant shortcomings with a term in office. Australians escaped a bullet this evening.

ttbn, are you in New Zealand, you last post timed 10:26 yet it is only
10:20 in Sydney !

Bazz,

I'm in SA where it is now 10.35pm. Watching Labor's surprise and disappointment. Once again, the polls and pundits were wrong.

So good to see that labor has been creamed. Only one person in 3 voted for them.

Shorten is now as dead as Hawke in the political business.

I think that they should open a condolence book for Shorten. Maybe they could put it next to Bob Hawke's...

OK ttbn, looks like something went wrong with the servers clock.

Surprising how wrong all the polls were for the last 6 months or so.
I suspect it is a part of a worldwide trend of rejection of the so called "progressives".
Obviously aggressive global warming and immigration political correctness
has played a part. It has also been responsible for new parties such
as Alternative for Deutschland, Marie le Pen's resurgence with her
party and the new parties in Holland, Belgium and Denmark.
The unexpected defeat of Hillory Clinton in the US elections was
due to the "Deplorables".
It does seem to be a recurring pattern.

Parties such as Labour will continue to be at a disadvantage if they
continue with more of the same.

Conservatism was boosted by the squanderings of the Left which only looks at society from that privileged viewpoint that is Academia. Real people with real needs have more pull eventually than unimportant idealistic dreams.

Boy, did i get it wrong ?! I thought Labor might win it by six to ten seats. So I'm not as smart as i thought.

The Labor Party and the working class seem to have deserted each other: Labor chased the left/Green vote and abandoned the battlers, the 'bogans'. The Labor Party is now more the party of the well-educated, comfortable but relatively powerless (i.e. a class which thinks it rightfully should be ruling, being virtuous and superior). 'The working class can kiss my arse', eh, Belly ?

And with the evolution of working-class workers (to a large extent) from 'bogans' into self-employed tradespeople and contractors and small business-people, who do they vote for ? It seems they flocked to the Coalition. Can the Labor Party ever get them back ? Perhaps only if they cut their links to the Greens and move away from trying to imitate Greens policies.

Morrison won from the centre: surely there's lesson for Labor ?

Joe

Well I too got it wrong, the polls got it wrong
And my ALP got it wrong six years ago
Bill Shorten did nothing as a Union head others do not do
He [and yes I hurts still] knifed Kevin Rudd
Then Gillard
I hoped the man who I knew would return after a victory
He never returned and now we go back six years
ALBO, ANTHONY albanese was elected by rank and file, NOT Bill
The caucus put Bill in over our stated wishes
We get to vote in leadership matters
Bill if nothing else brought us back together
But he too busted us in the first place
ALBO please lets us then start trying to bring the center to us
Scomo gets power again, just in time for a very real coming financial crisis
The Senate? ALBO should combine whenever he can to get government bills passed isolate the chooks

Here's a song for Bill.
http://youtu.be/s_8KR-n2fBQ

Perhaps the reason for the surprise on the left is because of the biased leftist media. This correlates with the Trump situation and with the fall of Russia in the 80's. We need to disband the ABC and use Trump like strategies to allow debate at our Universities on Traditional Conservatism and its rationale. There are no absolute "goods" or "bads"- despite the Communist Trotskyist claims of the Labor Party hostage takers- astro-turfing within the Labor Party- but it is still important to have principles- they should be principles of the people and their values- not the principles of ideologues. It's incumbent on us to learn about the systems of government so that they reflect our values. Even though the Liberal Party is still "Classically Liberal" (Economic Freedom) it contains many more Conservatives than the Labor Party. This Liberal Party win is a small step in the correct direction for Australia but much more work needs to be done for the Australian people to understand the necessity of "Conservative Principles" for the future of Australia. If we don't create a "Traditional Conservative Australia" we don't conserve Australia.

From Troy Bramston a labor ex staffer who knew both Shorten and Hawke:

"Labor must face up to the fact it has won a majority of seats at only one federal election since 1993. That election was Kevin Rudd’s victory in 2007. For the past 26 years, Labor has held a majority of seats in parliament for one term. At the next election, in 2022, this statistic will nudge 30 years. It is a dismal record.

Much was said about the death of Bob Hawke last week. In my tribute published in The Weekend Australian, I noted that while he wanted a Labor victory, he was concerned about Labor’s drift from the centre ground. Hawke never subscribed to class warfare or the politics of envy.

He was concerned Labor had reverted to a 70s tax-and-spend approach, did not understand the importance of aspiration or how markets could produce better economic and social outcomes than regulation and intervention. This assessment was startlingly prescient."

http://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/it-s-weird-bill-shorten-stuns-colleagues-as-he-lobbies-against-anthony-albanese-20190521-p51pni.html
Bill! leave bloke, you now by this action tell us voters got it right!
I got you wrong, warning, never ever let solidarity blind you, it did in my case

Folks the election is over.

Time to move on.

We've got a new government - and we shall have
to wait and see what they do. It's too early
to judge anything yet. Their new cabinet will
be interesting.

As for Labor? There are lessons to be learned.
And I'm sure that they will sort things out.

In any case, things for most of us won't really
change all that much. At least for those of us
in the big cities.

cont'd ...

I watched an interview this morning with a
Salvation Army Rep. who expressed concerns
about the government's lack of action on
homelessness, the destitute, and the sick.
Apparently things are at crisis point.
And they're urging action.

Will this come up at all in any of the government's
future plans for the country? Or will things simply
go along as before?

Can the government really achieve much if they keep
their promises of tax reduction, achieving a surplus,
keeping things the same, no surprises, where will
the money come from for health, education, welfare,
and the general well-being of the nation - or does it mean
more cuts?

Foxy quite true BUT politic will continue to be in the spotlight always
As it should, to many know very little about it
Scomo has won a mandate, he can, for a while, do as he pleases
Labor must hear the voters
Must stop looking internally but at those who did not vote for them
And those who once did but no longer do

Here and there, there are people posting about the alleged rape and wondering if it will get a new airing now that Shorten is no longer a political force.

There are many so called allegations on
both sides of politics. The country does
not need these diversions. It needs to
move forward and look to the future not
dig up the past. There's so much work
that lies ahead - that needs policies and
action. Queensland is a huge state with
much to offer - not only mining

Foxy,

You didn't say that about George Pell; why the sudden conversion?

Is Mise,

Pell is a convicted pedophile.

An Australian court found him guilty.

is mise yet another Catholic Priest was sent to gaol today [in his case for the second time]
A Church in its death roll as world wide people are leaving it
ALBO will be announced Labor leader tomorrow
He is going to be very good in the roll

Foxy,

Pell was convicted on unsubstantiated evidence: why can not Shorten be tried on similar evidence?

You are changing your tune and the notes fall flat.

Is Mise,

This subject has already been discussed.
And I had my say then.

If you wish to discuss it further - with
all due respect - start your own thread.
Do not try to divert this one.

Foxy,

Well, excuse me, but I thought that we were discussing Shorten, the late Leader of the Opposition.

While I think of it, Shorten probably lost votes for downplaying his mother's achievements and portraying his family as working class.

Is Mise,

We are discussing Bill Shorten not Cardinal Pell.
That is precisely the point.

Bill Shorten does come from a working-class
background. And he has referred to his mother's
achievements many times throughout his career.
He in no way tried to hide anything. However the
fact remains that she was not able to achieve the
career that she really wanted until she was in her
50s . That was the point being made. The Daily
Telegraph tried to stir things up and failed
miserably.

You're excused.

Now go sit in the naughty corner.

Foxy said...

Comment1-

As for Labor? There are lessons to be learned.
And I'm sure that they will sort things out.

In any case, things for most of us won't really
change all that much. At least for those of us
in the big cities.

Answer1-

At least Foxy is able to admit that the Labor party needs to sort some things out and learn some lesson. It's a start. Horses and water...

Comment2-

I watched an interview this morning with a
Salvation Army Rep. who expressed concerns
about the government's lack of action on
homelessness, the destitute, and the sick.
Apparently things are at crisis point.
And they're urging action.

Answer2- I wonder if Foxy knows any homeless people? They have interesting issues ranging from substance abuse to mental problems to claustrophobia. They tend to resist solution and seems independent of which government is resident. I've been known to shout homeless to a burger or two. I would like to see well insulated, draft proof huts with simple beds, a clothes drying rail- installed in local parks with inside locks and showers and a washing basin so that at least there would be shelter and cleanliness for these people. The cleaners could leave blankets in the rooms on cold nights. If we were serious we could even come up with ingenious heating systems. But there is a lot of opposition to this idea. You would probably as the cleaner find dead people in these huts occasionally if it was implemented. But in combination with the mobile soup kitchens it could provide the first two steps of Maslow's hierarchy for this marginalized group in a cost effective way. Currently these people sleep in doorways- huge spending on care systems that demonstrably don't care (don't meet targets) for the people but suck resources out of the system. To care for the group requires action not just feelings. This is the problem with "do gooders" that "don't do good".

My belief is that communities should take responsibility for its own sick. Doesn't mean that you give them the world but just some reasonably costed and functional amenities. Who knows we might actually save money by doing this as a community.

We do have stupid authority in Oz.

Along the southern headland of Botany Bay south from Kurnell there are a lot of caves, often only shallow, but deep enough to build a reasonable humpy. In the 60s there were a couple of dozen of these humpies along there.

I have no idea if they were built by homeless folk, or were something people uses as fishing huts on weekends. What ever it was quite interesting to walk along the foreshore, looking at the ingenuity of the builders adapting flotsam & some obviously imported material to construct these little shelters.

I don't know who was responsible, but someone with authority, council of National parks declared they had to go, & expended quite some effort destroying the things, & removing much of the building material.

These things were doing no one any harm, & added interest to a walk along that rugged area.

Thanks for your comments Hasbeen.

Foxy,

Shorten's father was an engineer and manager, his mother was a university academic and BS Bill was educated at a private school.

Working class? Bollocks

CM just a hint, it is getting hard to read all your long winded posts
Too half the reason we come hear should be to do that, read others posts
In your latest storm of words, before boredom set in, I note the following
*At least Foxy knows Labor needs , whatever*
See had you read others posts it would be clear no person on my side of the fence has not said that multiple times
Myself? about twenty times
Labor needs to change
But even more it needs to put policies that are clear in place
It went to the election with Santa's bag on its shoulder and even they didn't fully understand what they wanted

Belly said-
CM just a hint, it is getting hard to read all your long winded posts

Answer- Much of my previous post was quoting Foxy so the answers could be understood in context- you could have skipped the comments bits if you were bored. I guess the large block of text was too confronting even to see that there were sections. When you write there's a balance between precision and brevity- but people have always got to have something to complain about. :) ...

You I'm sure, know the technique Canem Malum. If you can't handle the subject matter, attack the person.

Hasbeen old mate, please understand, indeed know!
Long long ago I became aware you and I live on different planets
Yes we inhabit different economic classes, never got near to middle class
But bitterness has no hold on me'
Would not change a thing
CM? tell me do you ever not read the whole post
He too could sit and have a beer if we kept politics out of it without doubt
Do you know that, nothing else, makes us the lucky country
We, well most of us, get stirred up about politics, but in the end we can not find reason to hate, even deeply dislike each other