Well anyone's game and we will talk about it many times both before and after
I have noted the fact some here will vote for Anning, even the failed PUP leader Palmer
So how does that work?
Both majors have lost first preference votes, heaps of them
But our lower house system returns votes to them via the preference system
The chook pen, senate, is different, it rewards those small parties
Not sure how to say this but tell me what minor parties can achieve IF they win seats in the lower house
Now tell me what [include the greens] they can achieve in the chook pen
Last if Liberals or Labor lost the election because the few voted a protest vote what would that achieve

Shouldn't this've gone in the Elections section?

And despite the Senate being described as a chook pen, it actually works pretty well. When people have concerns about legislation, they discuss it thoroughly and seek improvements. Imagine how much better the Lower House would be if they ditched their mindless adversarialism and did likewise!

Aiden unlike your self I will not question what place it is put, but ask what difference will it make
Our biases, even our vote will not decide who wins this election
As it always has been and will continue to be the middle,those who make up their mind only in each election will say who wins
Chook pen, it may well be many share your view, but some share mine
Only John Howard, in recent times held both houses
It is unlikely, although improvements have been made, that one of the big two will not need to deal with the featherless chickens [small parties]
Greens in past Labor government killed off carbon capture laws,because they wanted better,but by childlike action got nothing

Hi Belly,

Don't know about the chook pen, but what's the biggest "policy" from the Coalition this week? No its not the absentee member for Manila, Fat George Christensen, running the electorate of Dawson from afar via 'Twitter', at a pay rate of $550/day, a good earner if you can get it. No its not even Barnyard Joys handing over of $80 million of taxpayers dosh to the Cayman Islands connection, for some muddy flood water. No its ScumO' and his deal to try and get Big Clive into the Senate. Has ScumO' given new meaning to tax cuts by backing Big Clive who now owes the Australian taxpayer $70 million and hasn't paid up, or paid his ripped off workers from his failed nickle business. All ScumO' can say when fronted on the issue is "Durrrrrr!"

Paul great to see you back, was a bit worried Foxy has been coping it from the usuals
Yes surely they will not elect the bloke?
And see one nation fool has stood down, where does she get them from?
Out last night, dieing hobby ham radio meeting, sad the see it go, we will hang on until its last breath
Shorten won the debate, as long a it is not on Fox they should debate every night'
Going to be close, apart from Queensland I think you will be ok

Belly what can I say, Steve Dickson, he was One Nations first choice for Queensland, what's number two like, I can just imagine. The LNP want these grubs in Parliament with them, and many of the 'Usual Suspects' on the forum are ON voters, heaven help us should they win.

Talking with my youngest son (a small l Liberal voter) on the weekend even he is shocked by the lack of policy from Morrison. He admits he likes a lot of Labor's policies but can't vote them number one on philosophical grounds. He want to see if there are any good independents running, said he'll give then a one. I said well then give Labor a two and that takes care of your philosophical concerns. I just got a "I don't know Dad".

“We all know that Guy Fawkes, the Catholic Guy, was the only man ever to enter Parliament with honest intentions” (Terence Maher, whoever he is).

There is only one important matter in this election.

Greens want to give our country, & our wealth to any one who wants to come & get it.

Labor will sell our country & wealth to anyone more likely to vote left.

Let this bunch in, & watch immigration skyrocket, & the boats churn a furrow in the waters of the Indian ocean.

Bill wants to send us broke even faster with windmills & electric cars, but not as quickly as the greens, who want to stop mining, the only thing that keeps our head above water.

Dear Belly and Paul,

Welcome Back Paul. Good to see you posting again.

I watched the debate last night. I thought it
went well. My only wish would be - if they
were to talk to each other a bit more rather
than to the cameras. A bit too formal for my taste
but of course I guess the time was limited.

After the debate - I watched Q&A.
Chris Bowen is a a Star!
He's such a great communicator!
Knows what he's talking about and gives answers that
any one can understand - and that make sense!
We should see more of him!

cont'd ...

I have to admit that I wish the debate would have
been less formal. There were so many obstacles
put in place. The clock on the screen was a distraction.
The cameras constantly on their faces while the other
was speaking - a bit awkward. As a first debate - I
guess it gave us a sign of what's to come.

Morrison was disappointing. He had nothing to say beyond
don't vote for Shorten. That's it. And he kept
repeating it over and over again. It was as if Morrison was
trying to mask the emptiness of what the Liberals are
offering with sharp attacking play - and this bloke
was relentless.

The applause for Shorten - especially at the end when
Shorten answered the last question about what he admired
about Morrison much more graciously - won he the debate
from the audience.

Foxy/Paul both Shorten and Morrison dare not just be themselves
See NSW Labor lost a winnable election that way
Even within my party, some want us to take stands the see two votes lost for every one gained
Dutton may not have a seat after 18th
Wentworth not sure to return to Liberals
Abbott is in real danger
These three seats are costing a fortune to defend
Both sides know 51/49 can still deliver government to the one with 49 percent
Marginal seats are the focus
I very much doubt some polls are honest
Note Hasbeens comment, not much to say about it
RECOMMEND to days SMH story about Australia's run of 28 years without recession is about to end
Watch them blame Labor

Dear Belly,

It looks like we're in for more nastiness.
I hate bully-tactics - but I guess we're
going to see more of them before this
election is over. It's an absolute turn-off.
My husband and I are planning to vote early - (at
the end of this week.) We're in the electorate
of Kevin Andrews. A safe Liberal seat.
It will be interesting to see if there's any kind
of swing.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/australia-s-perfect-economy-set-for-a-wake-up-call-20190430-p51igr.html
I offer this link as a reality chack
It highlights very real stormy waters head no matter who wins the election
It could have apeared in the capitalism thread, evidence is mounting change maybe forced on us
Foxy believe me the nastiness will get worse
LNP dare not run on their record so back to the fear and loathing
After all it is all they have

'Wahine' exits, and Paul 1405 pops up after long break. Interesting.

Dear Foxy,

«It's an absolute turn-off.
My husband and I are planning to vote early - (at
the end of this week.) We're in the electorate
of Kevin Andrews. A safe Liberal seat.»

Aren't you pissed off that you and your husband have no say in this elections?

Some people who happened, perhaps 30 years ago, to buy their house in a street on the other side of the electoral-boundary have the power of perhaps 10 votes each while you and your husband have none!

This Australian electoral-system was designed by the two dinosaurs to ensure that they stay in power forever. Perhaps the one, perhaps the other, they don't mind, they are one and the same, you need a microscope to see the "differences" between them.

As part of this design to reinforce their control forever, any attempt to change the system will be drowned by the white noise of the majority of electors who only know two things about politics: that these two parties exist; and that they will be fined if they failed to vote.

Paul FYI the person who named me as Alan b also named a poster of NZ heritage wahine as you
Outstandingly dumb stuff
Last night [this is an election thread] Hanson fronted her tormentor a current affair
She showed a frail side, and the tough one we have come to expect
Worth noting she, time and again,told us it is HER party, nothing happens without her
Then? claimed to know nothing of her two clowns talking about cash donations to? HER party
Take nothing for granted,this election is not won yet
But we can at least hope some take their brains not their blind bias in to the voting booths

Dear Foxy,

It was an interesting debate with Bill gaining a couple of undecided in our viewing group.

And yes Bowen did very well on Q&A. I think we are finally seeing good policies which aren't completely soaked in economic rationalism coming to the fore. This use to be what governments and politics looked like in the past. They are mindful of fairness and equity.

The line the LNP and particularly Scott Morrison have been running with is that “It's your money and you know best what to do with it” which is code for further lowering taxes and keeping loopholes like dividend imputation and negative gearing. There are many people who I would rather see as PM than Bill Shorten but I can appreciate the vision Labour has set out.

Steel,
how is dividend imputation a loop whole? Or negative gearing.

Dividend imputation is getting a tax credit for tax that has already been paid, that is (using round figures) If BHP pays a dividend and has already paid tax at 30%, the shareholder gets a tax credit of 30%. The shareholder could be you , a retiree, your super fund or any organization (trust fund charity) . So what Mr Shorten is proposing is to remove franking credits on those who do not pay income tax.
The funny thing is tax has already been paid on the profit, so Labor wants 300000 odd Australians to pay tax twice.

Why is it fair that James Packer can get franking credits, yet Mr and Mrs average retiree misses out? It is simply NOT FAIR. So any Charity that invests in shares misses out, any retiree or unemployed person ends up paying 30% tax on any profits because they own shares.

As for negative gearing, just look at history 1985 to 1987, The Treasurer at the time was Paul Keating, he removed neg gearing and rents went up and demand for public housing went up 40%.

Mr Shorten says he will keep neg gearing for brand new houses, well as soon as settlement happens it is a second hand house and no investor is going to buy it, so instead of 100 people at the auction (and half our investors) you have 50 or less, so no capital growth. No investor will buy a new home. Full Stop. as you only buy a home for capital growth.

Do the numbers without neg gearing no one invest in housing as the numbers don't add up compared to investing into shares, commercial property etc

Yuyutsu,

Yes. Only about 5% of voters - those who don't actually vote for the same drones all the time - change governments. My own electorate is a safe Labor seat (the Liberals insultingly put up a token candidate nobody knows), so I will be writing 'None of these" with a clear conscience, and saving my energy for the Senate: voting 12 below the line, and not a Liberal, Labor or ghastly Green among the ones I mark.

Oh, and my state electorate is so safe for Labor the gutless Liberals don't put anyone up.

Before the house prices rises, negative gearing existed
It Was there to promote home building, but gave tax breaks to investors in rental properties
That tax break,may well have come from the PAYE everyday taxpayers, who may never own a home
The housing price surge, and even its fall, has done little to end the shortage of rental property, or assist those who do not have the ability to buy a home
John Howard, during the biggest mineral boom in our history,gave his voters a reward, tax returns for some who paid no tax franking credits.
Had that been done by a Labor government, or supported by one, it would be named socialism for the far less than needy
By this government
The purpose of welfare is not to reward the better off while ignoring those in need

Dear kirby383,

You write;

“So what Mr Shorten is proposing is to remove franking credits on those who do not pay income tax. The funny thing is tax has already been paid on the profit, so Labor wants 300000 odd Australians to pay tax twice.”

How on earth can someone put these two sentences together and think they make sense? Care to try again?

Ok,

I'll rephrase by using an example,
“So what Mr Shorten is proposing is to remove franking credits on those who do not pay income tax. The funny thing is tax has already been paid on the profit, so Labor wants 300000 odd Australians to pay tax twice.

My father in law is retired and has a small trust fund which owns shares, he gets approx. $800 a year franking credits which helps his retirement income. As the trust does not pay tax, he will be penalised at 30%. He does not fall into the "anyone who gets a pension wont be effected" category as he does not own the shares, the trust does.

So, in his own name he can earn over $20k per year and pay no tax, yet he will pay $800 (or lose), yet James Packer if he had the exact same shares he would keep his $800.

Why should someone who would normally be in the nil tax or 19% tax bracket have to pay 30% tax on an investment?

If my father in law owned property in the trust, he would pay 19% tax on rent (as he is a low income earner) , yet if he invests into a trust that has shares he pays 30%

It is simply not fair!

Dear Kirby483,

You write;

"The funny thing is tax has already been paid on the profit, so Labor wants 300000 odd Australians to pay tax twice."

But no where in your example does your father-in-law pay twice does he? So why claim he does?

Ok, i'll try an explain again,

I used the word twice, in hindsight I should have used almost double.

If you normally pay zero or 19% tax rate and you pay 32.5% tax on one particular type of investment,that's almost double.

So I apologise in not using the correct wording.

It still is an unfair tax that will effect thousands of low income Australians, it is simply NOT FAIR

Dear kirby483,

You write;

“If you normally pay zero or 19% tax rate and you pay 32.5% tax on one particular type of investment,that's almost double. So I apologise in not using the correct wording.”

I'm afraid if the apology is for incorrect wording then I don't accept it. I will accept you saying you were patently wrong in what you had earlier asserted something which is a LNP talking point but which bears little resemblance to the facts, and now you wish to correct it.

It isn't your father-in-law who is paying the company tax is it? It is the company and it went to the tax department to pay for things like hospitals and schools and pensioner benefits. Sure your father-in-law should be able to get a credit on the other tax he he might have paid for the year, but that isn't what he is asking for is it. He wants a cash payout because he hasn't paid any other tax with which to offset it. The Labour party is saying no, this is a loophole and we can't afford it, and I agree with them. We are one of the very few countries who are allowing people to do this.

The original provision was to prevent double dipping on tax payments by the tax office. That isn't happening here though is it? Tax is only getting paid once and it is going to the commonweal where it should.

Dear kirby483,

Perhaps this will assist.

http://www.facebook.com/abcqanda/videos/2446160858951703/

So, you think an unemployed person who has some shares, should pay 30% tax, compared to an unemployed person who owns an investment property pays zero or 19% tax.

It is not a loop hole, its NOT FAIR.

Even my economics students understand this, yet you blindly believe that somehow low income earners who have shares are ripping off the government with this loop hole.

People who have shares (unless inherited) have earnt income, paid income tax and with what is left over invested for the future, the labor party wants to tax what you earn, increase tax when you sell an asset (increase in CGT)tax the dividends and provide no relief for lower income earners.

Please tell me how an unemployed person earning $30000 in interest in the bank would pay 19% tax, an unemployed person owing an investment property earning $30k p.a. rent would pay less than 19% tax (due to depreciation and possible no tax)and an unemployed share holder pays 30% tax, how is this FAIR?

A 2018 national survey conducted by the Museum of Australian Democracy and the University of Canberra found satisfaction with Australia’s democracy HAS MORE THAN HALVED between 2007 and 2018.

And , at the 2016 federal election, NEARLY 40% OF VOTERS DID NOT VOTE FOR THE MAJORS: twenty-four per cent voted for minor parties and independents, five per cent voted informal and nine per cent didn’t even turn up to vote.

Times 'are a a-changeing', and there's not much time left for politicians to get the message that voters regard them as rubbish.

The government DARE NOT run on its record, so confusing some is their best tool
Franking credits can no longer be sustained in an economy not far from faltering
Been an interesting few days,both a Labor and smaller party, then the government, had to get rid of a candidate
One nation? well it is expected from them
Then the homophobic small war that saw another Lib resign
Highlighting BOTH partys must control some of their members
It is getting to be fun this election

kirby483 don't waste your time.

As my mother used to say, there are none so dumb as those who don't want to understand.

As you can see, we have more than a few dumb contributors here.

May I bring a different angle to this discussion on dividend imputation:

So far the discussion assumes that the shares are in some big/bad corporation out there, but let us look at the following scenario:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=20184#357011

In brief, the small company was mine, I had the only $1 share and treated it like superannuation.

Any thoughts?

yuyutsu well it is a bit off subject in my view
Let us take the blinkers off, read and understand every post
Then armed with an understanding we, most of us, are committed to one side, no matter what
And no matter what truly matters
See some in defending their side,let truth suffer
We however will not win this election
Those who truly think long and hard,and those who barely think at all, will say who rules us
Policies are important,for our group, the true believers, even more so for the deep thinkers mentioned
But for that growing number,the they are all the same uniformed?
More likely to vote on what the news paper their fish and chips came wrapped in says
We can hope, but be prepared to be disappointed, concerns for our country and its future comes in to play
But know the miserable insulting attacks on the other side are more than likely to play a roll.
BUT understand by using those insults politicians are saying we voters can not think for ourselves the ultimate insult is to us
Continued, more to say

So why has the first preference on both sides fallen?, will it continue
Yes it will, and why, see both sides [including the incoming LABOR government] have forgotten the deep thinkers and the couldn't care less
Inward looking, holding meaningless meetings ,self assurance meetings that only support some views
Never looking outside their own private bubble? those uncommitted voters matter
We are seeing small groups form to rather than develop new policies target the other side EG scream about migrant intake betraying the country, but they end up while feeding hate hurting the side nearest their views
Would it not be great if we could debate on how to build a better country?
Read the posts absorb the views then ask how did we turn elections in to a rather filthy thing?
I wait, and hope, for reform, for politics based on being better not a race down hill both sides must see those who do not vote for them and try finding ways to communicate

Hi Belly, here again to catch up on the Coalitions "policy" announcements. The Liberal spokesman for Islamophobia, Jeremy Hearn resigned after bucketing all Muslims by claiming Muslims in Australia supported "killing or enslaving" non-muslims and wanted to introduce Sharia law to Australia. Well done Jeremy, and goodbye forever. Not to be outdone the parties spokesman on homophobia Peter Killin, has resigned after anti-gay comments about MP Tim Wilson. Well done Pete, and also goodbye forever.
Then there was the chit-chat between WA Liberal MP Andrew Hastie and far right loony Neil Erikson, something Hastie denies, but Hastie has been shafted by fellow Liberal Ian Goodenough saying a meeting between them did take place. Hopefully very shortly we can wish good old Andy goodbye forever as well.

Dear Belly,

The more people use the expression "both sides" and buy into that idea, the deeper we are buried by this conglomerate of seemingly-opposing two parties. During the day they loudly blame each other, for this is their way of making a living off us, then at night they toast together laughing their lungs out how they managed to screw us today.

So yes, you were correct in saying, «yuyutsu well it is a bit off subject in my view»: the two dinosaurs want us to always talk just about one thing: THEM! They hate it if/when instead we dare to discuss the policies cooly on their own merit.

Paul,

Then there's Lizardman ....

yuyutsu you must admit both sides do help their own followers
That may be the problem
We will hear Bill promise to work for us all, as winner always has done, but in the end the country needs all round improvement
Well aware of the loss of would be parliamentarians on both sides
Seems not enough talent exists on both sides
Had I been younger I would have worked very hard to be some sitting members office person, the sure way to a seat in the house
That too is a problem both sides need ordinary men and women to show voters any one can get a seat
We are about to get a truly reformist Labor government waiting to see that reform

Dear Belly,

You mentioned "both sides" 4 times in your last post.

We need to kick this habit: there is so much more in the world beyond these stupid Siamese-twins puppets and their staged wars. Looking at their actual worth and behaviour, none would survive without the other!

Dear kirby483,

Oh good lord mate, really? And you teach economics?

Okay perhaps if we take this a little more slowly. Let's use your property example to try and thrash it out. There is a property tax and it is called rates. It is derived from the value of the property.

If it was treated like franking credits are at the moment your unemployed person would be able to go to the Council and claim the full amount of rates paid on an investment property as a handout because they are a low income person.

That doesn't happen does it. Both the investment property and the company are taxed entities but we currently treat them differently. Rates costs should certainly be treated as an expense and used against the tax owing from income on the investment property.

Yet we don't get to claim a cash hand out for the rates paid do we.

Why should company tax be any different?

Dear Hasbeen,

You said; “As my mother used to say, there are none so dumb as those who don't want to understand.”

I get the sense she may have been talking about you rather than to you. Look, I understand if you are struggling to get your head around the issue, it is a bit complex. But little snipes from the sideline kind of highlights that fact and are less than flattering for you. Probably best to keep hush while kirby483 and I tease this out.

I got the flyer from the AEC in the mail
'Your Official Guide to the 2019 Federal Election
Saturday 18 May 2019
Your vote will help shape Australia'

A guide - oh great that's handy.
I'd like to know all about the candidates and their policies.
- So I can make an informed choice -
Lets have a look.

What!?
What IS this crap?
No info on any candidates or their polices.

How to vote in the House of Representative and the Senate

House of Representatives:
'On the green ballot you must number 'every box' in the order of your choice.'

Senate:
Above the Line - 'Number at least 6 boxes.'
Below the Line - 'Number at least 12 boxes.'

Hold on this is a scam.
'Order of Preference'

What if I don't think that these people have what it takes to govern in the first place?
Why MUST I preference them?

I'd just as soon as preference a monkey from the zoo;
Than preference any of the kind of feces throwing monkeys in Parliament we already have...

And I've got to find 6 or 12 I'm willing to preference?

So let me get this right a person could run on a campaign of pro-crime pro-murder pro-wife-basher pro-drugs pro-pedophilia etc;
And if there's not enough people on the ballot form then we've still got to preference them?

Voting's kind-of flawed, and stupid.

So this taxpayer funded pamphlet represents the pinnacle of democracy in our country?
Democracy's merits are echoed across the globe by virtue signalling politicians everywhere.

What a bloody joke.

Why don't you try making a system that's not fatally flawed?
One that doesn't have the seeds of its own destruction built in?

A retiree funded by welfare, i.e. a pension, with no other income stream than via a shareholding, receives an imputed credit.

A self-funded retiree, i.e. a person not funded by welfare, with no other income stream than via a shareholding, does not receive an imputed credit.

Why is how a retirement is funded relevant to whether or not they should receive an imputed credit?

All the false rhetoric on this about supposed taxpayer 'gifts' and 'cost' to the budget is simply justification for a money grab.

All the false rhetoric about 'loop-holes' and supposed 'subsidies' in relation to NG and CGT is simply justification for a money grab.

I can actually support death taxes, but all this lying class-warfare BS in the name of supposed 'fairness' leaves me cold.

Bill gets away without facing up to the cost of his renewables target, gambling again that his truth-cost-benefit mix will pull him through. Notwithstanding Germany's abject failure with emissions reductions and cost, Oz is now on an identical path

Bill Shorten won't tell even the ABC what his climate actions (which won't make any difference to the actual climate) will cost, so the economists have done if for him:

$264 billion, and a loss of 167,000 jobs. No wonder Bill refuses to answer the question!

It is impossible to cost because Labor will not
be imposing a direct carbon price on businesses.
The Parliamentary Budget Office for the Coalition under
Malcolm Turnbull was not able to cost.

How businesses reduce emissions won't be dictated
by Canberra - so things can't be costed by Canberra.
The impact on the economy would be exactly the same
which would be that the economy over the course of the
decade would grow in real terms by about 23%.

As Mr Shorten explained - "The government is going down
every rabbit hole, down every burrow, on every sideshow
to avoid one fact - they don't have a climate policy..."

Well we are talking, soit is a conversation, but not sure every view is seen by some
The election seems to be close, seems being the important bit
Have the same people polled for three years changed their minds? or are the latest polls just a bit slanted
Again my thanks, one nation Palmers mob, Australian conservatives an Anning
You have been a great help
To Labor
Nevertheless lets us continue to put the verbal boot in, make up stories, after all the last thing the Liberals want, is to run on their record

What we got to ask ourselves is, can we continue to have either ALP or LNP in charge of this Nation ?
We must find a third party that is not just an opposition for oppositions sake like the opposition.
We need a third party that acts as a governor for common sense & integrity. The time for a two-party nation is over because the two-party sustem's failure has brought us to this unworkable stage. We need a third party that will act on OUR behalf not that of ALP/LNP.
We need a third party that does away with opposition party sabotage at OUR cost. That third party is the key to introduce integrity in Govt & Public Service reform as well as Tax reform.

Left-leaning David Penberthy, radio commentator and husband of outgoing Labor politician , Kate Ellis, describes Cory Bernardi as the "ultimate straight shooter". You won't hear that said about many politicians, certainly not from a lefty about a conservative.

indy it remains true a party to govern, must be a big tent one
It just must, be one that many views can feel at home with
Your views are not those of many or most
This morning ABC online news, free to read, highlights a scare campaign
Targeting migrants and the children of migrants, Chinese Australians
And it is working
It is a constructed lie
It is Russian troll like
But it works, now hold on! migrants? from Hansons original targeted group?
Fearing, voting against? migrants?
Poor fella my country
We if we vote only on lies fear loathing, racism, are never going to be the country we should be

ttbn, The Australian Conservatives are a real blast from the past, its a pity the election is being held in 2019 and not 1950, you guys would have done well with your sudo-Menzian politics from 70 years ago. I can see the appeal this AC mob would have for the fear ravaged octogenarians in society. With polices which would wind back the clock to the "good old days" of Pig Iron Bob, a time when the Coalition were dozing away in Canberra as Australia changed direction and started to embrace new thinking. A time when Australia like the rest of the developed world was striving to become a more egalitarian and just society. All in all this grab fest of archaic policies should see The Australian Conservative jag one percent of the vote, with massive support among the spats and straw hat wearers.

Belly,
Why do see the need to always twist words ? No-one is "targeting"migrants", Because of your leftie mates, people weren't allowed to single out any particular groups & now they're clamping down on free speech by including all migrants.
What most Australians object to are those migrants who do nothing for this country & only cause division. They are certain migrants not just migrants.
Looking around Sydney do you still think Pauline was wrong in her maiden speech & was condemned by so many for it ?
There are as many good migrants & they outnumber the not so good ones but, they don't appear to openly condemn their fellow compatriots when they do wrong.
Look at the Chinese in Australia. They don't have enclaves & they openly mix with others. They're successful migrants who built a better live here. Can you say that of those whose religion dictates to them to bring us under their yoke ? No, so why should we not treat them the way they treat us ?

Foxy, regurgitation of Labor's position is not providing a costing. What companies do or don't do is irrelevant.

What money is Labor plowing into infrastructure, subsidies, cheap loans and other incentives to renewables to get to its 45% target? To simply suggest that homes and businesses will take up the climate fight without these incentives is completely fatuous.

Some idea of what has been spent to achieve the current level of renewables penetration should give a guide to the massive amount we're talking, or we could cast our minds to Germany, where around 30% renewables has cost hundreds of billions of euros.

How Shorten is getting away with his pea and thimble trickery on this matter is astonishing.

indy, lefty mates, in truth after you use that term nothing you say is worth reading
We lost candidates today, again, and we should have lost the Labor one for the seat of Melbourne
BUT see we once owned that seat, the greens do now
We want to win it back, but can not replace the fool if we dump him
Sad but true he will remain for the above reasons
BOTH parties need to fix shrinking branch numbers
And pre selection processes

Heard recently on television - when a Liberal
politician was asked about carbon pollution?
-
he explained that "Yes we believe in reducing
it in Australia - definitely but selling - coal to Asia,
is good for our economy."

There you have it folks.

All in a nutshell - they can pollute all they want
in the Northern Hemisphere. Our economy is what
matters. And what happens in other parts of the
planet - won't affect us - right? Air does not move
South

Maybe Labors well thought out policies will save the country?
http://www.news.com.au/national/federal-election/scott-morrison-details-his-favourite-breakfast-targets-labor-over-plans-to-change-vegemite-recipe/news-story/3002672ae1056107fcafbe9b894bdb7b

What I want to know is where they got these idea from?
Did a member of the ALP come up with this idea and if so why?
Who are they towing the line for?

Which agenda is it?

The one where you score points by attacking anything that relates to 'national culture'?
Or the one where they tell us what we can and can't eat?

I told you all months back there's an agenda against red meat.
I keep seeing the red flags of things to come:

"You vilt eat vot vie tell you to eat!"

"Don't you know about zee climate change nincompoop?"

"Zee planet will be kaput"

I mean really Belly, what chance do anyone of us have if this is the best our pollies can come up with for policy.

"Let's change the recipe for vegemite"
(Because the yanks don't like our ingredients)

Seriously, you have to stand back and go 'What's the bigger picture here?' just to start to appreciate how completely messed up our country is...

Vegemite.

And Shorten?
What an incompetent sellout.

Hi Belly, I see the Coalition just booted another candidate for Islamophobic comments. This time its the candidate for the Tasmanian seat of Lyons, Jessica Whelan, goodbye Jessie. Me thinks the Coalition is full of far right extreme candidates. The duffer who leads the Nationals got it right, his party has plenty in common with Pauline Hanson's One Nation, and they should be preferenced by the party.

Foxy,

At this point I shouldn't be surprised that you would simply parrot the labor talking points without any rational criticism.
Firstly it is very possible to put a cost to the economy on Labor's carbon policies, both for private industry and the electricity grid. Forcing industries to reduce their carbon footprint can only happen in 3 ways:
1 They modify their industries with alternative technology which for established idustries is generally hideously expensive.
2 they reduce their output or close down, sack the workers and production moves overseas.
3 they buy carbon credits which is generally the cheapest solution, for which the price is known and predictable within limits, and the coalitions costing are based on this.

The electricity is forced to invest in expensive renewables and battery back ups and the cost of power increases again by more than 50%

Anyone that thinks the economic growth is going to be unaffected is an idiot.

Secondly, adding > $200 bn in taxes as the world economy slows is a sure fire recipe for a recession.

That's right Foxy, Oz should keep its fossil fuels, and its uranium, in the ground and close a few schools and hospitals.

Of course, renewables will create the jobs lost but won't bring income to Oz unless we can compete with Asia on production costs. Did you know, too, that under the GATT, we must allow foreign product to compete with domestic product, so 'buy Australian made' renewables will be a plea, just as with any other product.

More renewables will bring more jobs just as more traffic accidents will, or building nuclear power. Job creation is not a particular selling point to get juiced about, as Labor does, especially when the infrastructure will end up in greater energy costs and inefficiencies, as in Germany.

Any other thoughts while you're on a roll?

More women in Parliament!

About 50.3 percent of voters are women
Each day more insults are aimed at women voters by the boys club LNP

Dear Belly,

My husband and I have now voted.

It was awesome voting early.
No long lines, no fuss.

We took our time and were able to talk
to the candidates who this year were all out
in force meeting people. What a change from
previous years when all we got were the usual
people with the "how-to-vote"flyers. This time
we met the candidates running for seats in our
electorate - pleasant change. May this approach
continue in future elections. Being able to
actually talk to the candidates about policies
really helped.

"More women in Parliament!"

What are you talking about Foxy?
You've already got ScoMo and Shorten...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-03/federal-election-liberal-candidate-jessica-whelan-quits/11075926

Hi Foxy,

I have done pre-polls for many years and have enjoyed the light-hearted banter that goes on, along with the opportunity to talk with others including "the enemy", and the candidates. In the "good old days" when only about 5% voted pp there were long periods of do nothing time, and the biggest policy discussion would be who's tern is it to buy the coffee. I found that most people from the other side were just like you and I, there was the occasional "nutter" that came along, but they would be given short shift by all, with a "I hope he voted for you".

Paul me too, but done my last after the state one
Will be there on polling day but no longer after close seeing votes counted as scrutineer
Had a PC thing take place at my last, fellow HTV person[ my side] said she thought I should be rolled up in a carpet and placed in the boot of a car
While she sat under the NATS! tent and spoke of their trips to Europe!
So this fella who eat bread with only sugar on it as a kid feels he has outgrown some
Tight, very tight, watching for the mud landslide to get very dirty, but think it is going ok

Dear Paul and Belly,

It was a great experience voting early this
time. However there was one thing that made
me cringe( and laugh).

As soon as we drove up
into the voting centre, parked our car, and
started to walk towards the building - we
saw all the" how to vote card people" from the
various parties handing out their leaflets.
The Liberal people were wearing Blue T-Shirts,
the Palmer United Party
Member wore a bright Yellow T-shirt, the Greens
all had Green T-Shirts, and guess what Labor
Members were wearing? - Bright RED T-Shirts.

I thought - WTF? (Reds under the Beds?).

What were they thinking?

Our electorate has quite
a large number of Chinese in its population who
have fled communist China - and wearing red t-shirts
sends the wrong message to them. I know because
we spoke to quite a few of them.

Someone should tell Mr Shorten to get his people to
wear a different colour. Anything but red - it's
sending the wrong message.

cont'd ...

What's this about Mr Abbott?

He seems to be agreeing that there is climate
change after years of denial. I'm told he's
threatened by the Independent candidate running
in his electorate - so he's jumping ship on the
climate issue in desperation to stay in government.

We saw Kevin Andrews make an appearance yesterday
in our electorate in the centre where we voted.
Chose a point at a gate where everyone had to walk past
him (he wasn't about to be not seen). This was a first
for him to be there in person so early on. All we usually
got in the past was a cardboard cut-out or a picture.

This also smacks of desperation. But at least they're
trying (at the last minute) - I guess.

We never see him during the year - except to sleep on the
backbench in Parliament during Question Time.

Hi Foxy,

Labor has been in red for several years now, well I'd go? hummmm maybe White?

Latest election news; The $100 million 'Big Clive Fund', you do remember the much touted 'Big Clive Fund' the fund set up to help the disadvantaged Aboriginal people! The Palmer Care Charity, which got Big Clive plenty of kudos when the aspiring politician set it up in 2012, alas by 2013 the fund had a balance of only $103, but its not all bad news, with Clive's careful style of business management the funds balance had grown to a staggering $109 by today's date, and not one lousy grant has in seven years been made by the "vote for Clive charity" a magnificent effort by the big fella (to get elected). AND PEOPLE ARE VOTING FOR THIS SHONK!

Foxy it has a very very long ago reason Labor uses red.
We are far from communists,but stuck in a long ago time workplace war was the normal
Candidates not using it have run foul of members
Palmer, please consider, is a past failure running a Trump like campaign, but is still the fraud he always has been
An all out attempt to make voters forget the past six years is underway
Considering what the next three, under Morrison,would be like is enough to make any one afraid

Dear Paul,

I've never noticed Labor being in red before.
Perhaps this time it was more obvious because
the people were standing way out in front.
Anyway - I still say - get rid of the red.

The United Australia bloke handing out the
leaflets had a great sense of humour - but I
told him his boss was a crook. He smiled and
said, " Name one pollie who isn't."

He had me there.(smile).

Dear Belly,

There's only one choice in this election.
And, we both know what that is.

One thing that will not be mentioned in the "conversation" by the campaigning politicians is immigration.

Labor gave it's 'compassionate' speil by vowing to lift the refugee intake to 32,000 from the already grossly excessive number of 17,500 some time ago, but it hasn't had the guts or the honesty to mention it as a vote winner during its campaigning.

Neither party wants to talk about immigration; the Coalition is just as dishonest and slimy as Labor. John Howard's "we will decide who comes to this country and by what means" was a complete con; the slogan was a cover for a massive increase in unnecessary legal immigration.

Anyway, Paul Collits Quadrant Online, reckons that politicians of all persuasions do us more harm not by what they do, buy by what they don't do; and elections don't matter much because most of the ideological action occurs outside government. “The culture wars are fought in institutions other than the parliament and, moreover, what goes on in the parliament doesn’t much affect what happens at the various fronts of those wars”.

Non-state actors do more harm to our lives and freedoms than any government. It seems that The runaway success of the cultural Marxist left in transforming our critical institutions to conform to their own visions is such that focusing on parliamentary politics nowadays is pretty much a waste of time.

Hard to argue with that.

Migration has and always will be, something both sides say we need
They, and the facts agree, tell us it is good for our economy
Past migrants did not always find us welcoming
And,unfortunately, the change from integration to multiculturalism,has had an effect
Remain unsure why it was needed
But just look at the history of Pauline Hanson
She launched with an anti Asian slant
Now it is Muslim,but I get a feeling if she could gather support, and cash, by targeting English migrants she would
Nothing can turn Australia in to a monoculture again, even if most wanted it
So this election, at times, feeds the anti migrant/refugee debate, when it remains in our best interests to try living with the country we have

Its been revealed that the Victorian branch of the Liberal Party has been taken over by far right religious fundo nutters, signing up new members from Sunday morning gatherings of happy clappers. This way out extremists religious clique was busy pre-selecting their own candidates and dictating policy on everything from Muslims to Gays, all being unacceptable to the vast majority of voters. Victoria should be a blood bath for the Coalition!

Scott Morrison a happy clapper himself, is from NSW.

Ttbn,

When you mention migration, do you mean refugees ?

When you mention refugees, do you mean migrants ? Legal refugees ? Or illegal refugees ?

Joe

Joe,

I didn't mention 'migration'. I mentioned 'immigration' - people coming into Australia. Migrating is what wildebeests and zebras do.

There is legal immigration; illegal immigration, and refugees. All different, and too many of all of them.

Tell me, true tell me, how do we stop migration
How dowe end refugee intake
Then tell me how we reverse the last quarter century of both
Why would we want to
What would the rest of the world say about that
Would the new White Australia be affected by trade bans if we did
Best start by telling me why this thought bubble has become an election campaign item
Why both sides would NEVER DARE talk about total shutdown of either

Belly stopping most migration, & definitely stopping the most undesirable migration Would be very easy.

Simply enact legislation, & broadcast loudly & long, that we now have a moratorium on all welfare & free medical treatment for the first 5 years of residency of any migrant.

That will quickly get rid of the welfare shoppers, the majority of middle eastern & African immigrants, & others from parts of Asia.

Apply the same rule to all new residents who have been here less than the 5 year qualifying period, with the offer of free repatriation to their last place of residency.

Deport any immigrant, & all their family, if they break any law more serious than minor road rules, with no overview by any QANGO, tribunal or court.

With the above in place, we will soon see the elimination of Islander, African gangs & middle eastern gangs, & a rapid reduction in the number of them in the country.

Now what is the next insoluble problem?

http://www.smh.com.au/national/one-nation-candidate-attended-extremist-event-used-volunteer-member-20190504-p51k3p.html
First the pure insanity shown in this link
Damningly stupid and in the end harmful to this government
Hasbeen you seem to think that was a bright post
One that in your view[is it not?] could be done
Without pain? without damaging growth and this country's economy?
What is it about Queensland? [see this mornings SMH ] why do they think so unlike the rest of the country?
Read the link, know that state saw the birth of one nation, is the only state it can hold its voters
Market day this day, out and about, stall holders tell me they have already voted,
I will tomorrow,wonder how much the daily ups and downs for both partys effects the fact voters are in even before today's ALP opening.

Even the crackpot Guardian has published a survey showing that 64% of Australians want a cut in immigration. They might not want to talk about it during campaigning, but the party that doesn't slash immigration, and soon, will be dealt with by the electorate. This Prime Minister stopped the boats as Immigration Minister. As Prime Minister, he can slash immigration - with majority support - if he still has the guts that he used to have. The days when Australia needed mass immigration are well and truly gone. Talk about lack of skills is crap, from an immigration point of view because, as expert Bob Birrell pointed out 12 months ago, almost no new arrivals are going into skilled trades and professions. Immigrants are a burden on the countriy's infrastructure and average Australians. Immigration belongs to a long gone era.

No point in talking about that post this campaign is going to leave a very big problem
How do we mend the mindless hate this campaign is bringing,other than voting Labor?

Another thread has highlighted this election has become pond scum for some
Too that some know very little about the subject
Two polls out this morning, one not too sure it is even posing as true
But it seems clear people are warming to Shorten
We face near two weeks of Trump style shouted lies and false fear to end the campaign
Just maybe vote shedding by this government could result

Hi Belly,

I liked Labor's campaign launch yesterday, you can see the unity that the Labor members have. Can we expect Money Bags Malcolm and The Mad Monk to sit in the front row next week when ScumO' tries and fire up the Liberal campaign, me thinks not!
I see Frydenberg did not rule out a challenge to ScumO', should ScumO' suffer a massive defeat come May 18th, heaven forbid. Then Mr Potato Head has categorically denied he still has leadership aspirations, also a bad sign for ScumO'.

"What is it about Queensland? [see this mornings SMH] why do they think so unlike the rest of the country?"

It's really simple Belly;

- Most of us don't want the foreigners taking over our state -

And there's still enough of us to speak up despite usually having Labor governments...

Do you understand democracy, is it really that hard to comprehend?

We don't care for your southern ideas on multiculturalism or immigrants.
We haven't been outnumbered into silence.
We're happy the way we are.

Paul looks over but it may yet swing
Voters, true small l Liberals, are impacting so too are those sickened by the mud
Bill was great, he has a united team behind him
And outside Queensland the mud throwers are not changing voters intentions
Vote for Shorten,you get a Prime Minister
Vote for Scomo and you get Scomo, no contest
Voted this morning Greens got preference on both tickets

Read some posts,try it, they say both sides are not worth voting for
And yes brag about defacing the ballot,rendering it a no vote
Too of intention to vote for the extremes
In the end we know the final result is *the two party prefered*
Because it is just that, still, it is only two who can govern
So if we have no intention of casting a valid vote, or have the intention, in the lower house, to waste it
Do we have the right to complain about who wins
Shorten is pulling back, making gains, in the prefered PM race
But it will not be until months after he becomes PM that he will see a very real lift in his popularity, it will take place
No great cheer rises during counting when a scribbled on ballot is rejected
Just a near silent grunt, another one, and a shake of the head by most watching

Dear Belly,

Don't forget to watch Bill Shorten on Q&A
tonight (6/05/2019).

I wonder when (and if) Scott Morrison will
appear on the program to answer questions
from the audience?

Also, will former MPs and former PMs of the
Liberals attend their Party Launch like the
ones from Labor did? Can you imagine Malcolm
Turnbull, Julie Bishop, John Howard, sitting side by side
with Tony Abbott and Peter Dutton, et al, - supporting
Scott Morrison?

No. Me neither. Tony Abbott and Peter Dutton will be
in their electorates - fighting to save their own
seats.

Foxzy at least my problem, and it was eating me,got a result
Believe it not because of that anti Shorten thread
if Bill was any of the things he is charged with here it would be ME telling us here in print
Will look, also at Wednesday's third debate
We can only hope

Morrison was consummate in handling Leigh Sales on the 7.30 report tonight. Win lose or draw I haven't seen a politician handle himself under fire like that for awhile. Very impressive command of the facts and of her strafing attacks.

I'm not a fan of LNP's energy policy, but it's the least worst unless one wishes to contemplate the UAP's together with its grab-bag of more unpalatable tripe. Renewables have done nothing on emissions in Germany or SA while raising costs to consumers enormously, and the grid-storage options would propel costs even higher.

How Shorten gets away without costing his energy policy is scandalous. His kid-glove treatment on this by the ABC stands in stark contrast to the went it goes hell for leather at Morrison tonight.

Luciferase,
>Renewables have done nothing on emissions in Germany or SA
I could see why this could be the case for Germany, as their abandonment of nuclear power counteracted the benefits of moving to renewables. But where did you get the idea that the same was true for SA? Considering the state no longer generates power from coal, it's an extraordinary claim, yet you've supplied no evidence at all.

>while raising costs to consumers enormously,
Yet when the cost is broken down, very little of it is attributable to renewables. It has more to do with higher gas prices, higher profits and inefficient provision of more poles and wires.

>and the grid-storage options would propel costs even higher.
As it would supply more electricity when it's needed most, bringing down the wholesale price, it's likely the reverse is true.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election-2019/independent-mp-kerryn-phelps-seeks-police-probe-into-very-disturbing-emails-20190506-p51ko6.html
Could have posted this link in three threads
But think it belongs here,it highlights a hatred, a bias, but a fall in this country's politics
The two posts above talk of policy, we all should
But we must be honest, elections post Russian trolls/Trump, are filthy things
And it seems to me, sometimes those spreading the hate/lies/fake news are Chickens in the service of the Fox
They will be,the first victims of any victory their leader has

Aidan, why don't you admit that the reason Germany is now reticulating for Russian gas and builds coal mines and plants is because grid-storage is just not remotely in the feasibility picture and 100% fossil-fueled backup contingency is needed 24/7/365. This is on top of its extension cords to French nuclear (how hypocritically anti-nuclear, eh?) and Nordic hydro. What a boondoggled fandango is Energiewende, and Oz now looks set to follow the same path, ttps://tinyurl.com/yyrctcyv

Had to lol when on Q&A the Shifty Shyster says industry is ahead of the curve on renewables and is voting with its feet. Nup, it's voting with its wallet while gov't bends over backwards with subsidies and other support.

Even if nuclear power was free and wasteless there'd be opposition.

Cheap, abundant energy will help to solve environmental problems and repair the earth as much as would reducing humanity's footprint trough de-population and de-industrialization. Some think we are a blight on the planet and the latter course is best. That's the distinct difference between neo-Malthusian's and Ecomodernists.

Affluence is the best population control and, through cheap energy, will level out population and create a better, more peaceful world. This is the message that goes in tandem with the simple emissions equation.

That was http://tinyurl.com/yyrctcyv

SA, huge diesel-fleet backup, interconnection to Victorian coal, and a five minute battery for a price nobody is supposed to know.

If grid-storage is such a marvelous option then why doesn't SA go for it?

OTOH, it's ship-building yards could be excellent for building small modular reactors to send around the country, and its outback could store waste (aka un-reprocessed fuel) until molten-salt reactors arrive to burn it (I'm investing in Moltex).

Of course, you dream on about viable grid-storage while NuScale, Moltex, Elysium Industries, the Chinese, Russians and Indians get on with the only real solution to emissions.

Oz has such potential but all we'll aim for under Labor is slicing up a shrinking pie differently while being the greatest virtue-signalling nation in the world.

As an aside, whoever gets in must to do something about plastic waste (un-reprocessed polymers) now exporting it isn't an option. Maybe we could get SA working on that.

Without retracting any of the negative comments I’ve made in the past about Scott Morrison’s suitability for the job of PM, I have to say that he handled his interview with Leigh Sales last night brilliantly, unlike Bill Shorten, who was rendered incoherent by the aggressive redhead.

Sales, who does treat both sides the same in interviews, is a great interjector. She stops most politicians dead when she wants clarifications; and she certainly stopped Shorten dead, and he handled it like a schoolboy.

Not so with Morrison, who ploughed on confidently and clearly, reducing Sales’ interruptions to a harmless hum in the background. As for the final question as who would set the Liberal agenda in the next government, Morrison said, without hesitation, “I will”.

Perhaps there is a strong leader coming out after all. Wets, climate hysterics, small ‘l’ liberals in the party had better watch out. So had Bill Shorten better watch out.

Now, Morrison has been egged by a lunatic at a CWA do, of all places. The character of supporters of the Left should be clear to the electorate by now.

Violence seems to be part of the Left’s strategy. Violent demonstrations aimed at blocking free speech; violent attacks on politicians. Nothing similar from the Right, that I’m aware of.

Another boost for climate lunacy has emerged today following the latest IPCC hysteria-fest. The usual people unacquainted with truth are barking about Australia's "appalling" lack of effort in the area.

I beg their, pardon; but Australia is obsessed with renewable energy and palaver, having introduced more programs and gadgets per capita than any other civilised country - 3-9 times more effort in some cases. Not that all the pain and cost will make a damn of difference to the climate. But the lies keep on coming.

Scott Morrison used bullyboy antics towards
Leigh Sales. He acted like a man who has been talking
over people all of his life - and sounded rude and
argumentative - with that kind of attitude getting
pushy does not make his points more believable.
Telling Leigh Sales -" Ï'm not finished yet..."
made him seem aggressive. Also evading questions did
not help either. Voters were able to compare this
interview with that of Bill Shorten's that followed on
Q&A. Mr Shorten made an excellent appearance - and
showed us all what a great leader he will make when
elected. Morrison? Only other bullies would be able to
identify with that man.

feminist overpaid by the taxpayer to push marxist garbage need strong men to stand against them. Not every male is emasculated, at least not yet.

runner,

How would you know?

With regard to Bill Shorten's inability to cost his climate 'mitigation policy, it must surely be seen by voters that it is seriously dumb to embark on un-costed and experimental policies. This is exactly what the previous Labor government did, bringing about Australia's exploding commonwealth debt.

It is bulldust to dodge the question by yammering about the cost of not doing something when he can't put a figure on that either.

SMH this day, Hansons vote has near halved, most going to Palmer
Further, in Queensland, the partys home,it is [not my words] unlikely they will win a Senate seat in Queensland
Why are conservatives not voting first for the Liberals
Story after story about the heat or is it hate? in this campaign
Report from the pre-poll over a million have voted by days end
What will it be by 18th?

More Left violence as a Green candidate attacked (grabbed) an Australian Conservative volunteer at a polling booth in the Sturt electorate yesterday. The Advertiser reports that the Green, Paul Boundy, was FORCED to apologise to the FEMALE volunteer. Real gents, these Greens. Their idea of equality, perhaps?

Talking about grabbers -

Dickson was filmed grabbing - as was
Ashby. It seems that One Nation are full of grabbers.
then there's Barnaby, Christensen, - they're also
grabbers - as is Scott Morrison - but he prefers grabbing
coal to people. Each to their own.

How good was Bill Shorten on Q & A last night, that performance alone must swings 1000's of votes Labor's way. WHERE WAS SCUMO', nowhere to be seen, sitting at home sticking pins in his Bill Doll I suspect! ScumO' could have at least sent along his SB glove puppet. But have the SB glove puppet without ScumO's hand shoved up his clacker to fire him up, poor SB glove puppet slumped in a chair with eyes closed, mouth open catching fly's wouldn't do much for the voters, or would it? Although SB glove puppet with his eyes closed, mouth open catching fly's would be more understandable than what he usually babbles on about.

Shorten was free range, all over the place wivv a speech impediment answering a host of Dorothy Dixers.

Just what is he going to do about the 'dumb question' of emissions abatement cost to the budget, or the Makarrata charter, or the gig-economy for example, other than the platitudes he gave? Who knows, but he sounded expansive with an "it's the vibe, it's the vibe, it's the vibe" appeal, without detail. It's probably all he needs to get in, he reckons, and detail will unravel as it happens, along with his government.

Fantasyland comments will change nothing
This government is having a near death experience
It can praise Sconmo all it likes but the very real problem is if you vote for Scomo you get Scomo

Steve Cates, writing about the latest example of “.... how vile the left is for our political institutions”, and how they are the cause of most avoidable problems in the world (Catallaxy Files), predicts that the idiot who assaulted (she has been charged with common assault) the Prime Minister, says this feral female has made Australia a worse place to live. She will be set free with a token fine, or a few hours of public service - encouraging more violent attacks on politicians with weapons much more dangerous than eggs.

The Left has really lowered the tone of politics and heralded a possible change to the way that politicians campaign: from being able to walk among people freely without fear, to staying away from their constituents, behind barricades and heavy security as happens in the sort of countries the Left wants to turn Australia into.

Dear Luciferase,

You wrote;

"Shorten was free range, all over the place wivv a speech impediment answering a host of Dorothy Dixers."

You were that kind of kid in school weren't you, picking on the kids with a lisp, or with a stutter or any other impediment. Unlikely to have confronted them personally though, just behind their back, or a quiet snicker as they passed.

Grow up.

Talking about how vile things have gotten?

Vile indeed - Scott Morrison chooses to have
Bill Shorten's picture and unflattering comments
going around suburbs in Melbourne yet he is scared
to face audiences in a debate on Q&A.

Kevin Andrews
doesn't make appearances in his electorate unless
he's surrounded heavily by protective staffers
and he only does that prior to elections.

Then
there's the preference deals with Clive Palmer's UAP
and One Nation - smacking of sheer desperation.

No wonder eggs get thrown by frustrated voters.

This isn't a schoolyard issue.

This chap wants to represent us on the world stage and should do us the honour of doing it with less cringe-worthy elocution, "King's Speech" and all that. It's not a disability and not that hard to change.

I've no idea why you'd defend this, frankly, SR. He's got far bigger issues his supporters should defending that he won't.

For starters you could explain what he means by the cost of emissions abatement being a 'dumb question'. Does asking it make a person 'dumb' in Shorten's Australia, and worthy only of a schoolyard bully's response? Grow up yourself, and stop being Shorten's useful idiot.

I can't believe what I've been reading on this thread.

1. Franking credits are a 'withholding tax' paid to the ATO on the investor's behalf at 30% on the value of the relevant dividend - just like PAYG paid to the ATO on behalf of the worker.

What would the worker say if they were refused a legitimate tax refund on the PAYG 'withholding tax' paid to the ATO on their behalf??

Wake up folks.

Dividends are taxable income. Salaries are taxable income. Withholding tax applies mostly to both (though some companies don't pay a franking credit - so the full relevant tax has to be paid by the investor).
So, what's the difference? Why 'invent' a difference?
(May I suggest, to meet Bill's magnanimous proposed handouts?)

2. Why is there negative gearing on an investment property? Why, as an 'incentive' to boost housing construction to meet the needs of renters and at the same time of first home buyers (by virtue of growth in overall housing availability).

Shut down negative gearing and you put a brake on housing construction. Then, where will the first home buyer be?
(Particularly with all the foreign buyers getting their bids in.)

Nothing boosts prices like a scarcity in supply!

3. Oz contributes 'minutely' to global 'emissions'. Hence, if Oz were to go 100% 'renewables' (no net emissions), it would make no measurable difference while the big emitters go gangbusters on open-slather industrial development (like Trump removing nearly all environmental limitations - see 'Fracking', etc.).

I conjecture, the 'real' issue is the shrinking availability of 'easy' oil reserves. Why do you think Russia is so intent on supporting Maduro in Valenzuela, the Iranians, and Assad in Syria?
Similarly the US is supporting the UAE - and is trying to get a foothold in Venezuela via the Opposition 'President'.

And Bill's plan relies on inherently 'unreliable' overseas 'carbon credits' - forcing Oz industry (including electricity production) to pay for these, increasing the price of nearly everything - to be borne by the householder, worker, mum and aspiring job seeker. Nuts.

Continued:

4. We have great healthcare, great education, great welfare, fair roads and public transport, and things are continually improving - though it is undeniable that more is still needed. So, steady as she goes, or rush in a few more 'school hall' or 'pink batts' stampedes, like a drunken sailor run riot?

Anyone can 'promise' 'Utopia' - but delivering is another matter.

5. Bill is either an out-and-out 'spiv', or has been led down the garden path by some possibly well-intended but ultimately idiotic 'dreamers'.
(How else can you describe someone who will say virtually anything to win an argument?)
Evidence: The price of inaction (on GW) 'would' be greater - meaning immeasurable? So, there is no need to cost 'action'?
Pull the other leg, please.
Promises to make nearly all healthcare totally free for all, conjure up masses of cheap housing (by removing negative gearing, increasing capital gains tax, pilfering franking credits), increase salaries (by increasing employer overheads), electric everything (but using GW as the motivation, whereas oil supply would be a better argument) - and on, and on. Solve youth mental health - but what they really need is assurance of a good job and security - which can only be based on sound economic development, not handouts.

Oz will decide, and may the devil take the hindmost, eh?
(I maybe could go on, but just think about the massive debt left by Labor from 2007 to 2013, with on-goings to be met by the incoming gov, and for only a few real gains - like NDIS and Gonski, at least as much as a 'strangled' budget and over-promised residual aspirations could realistically bear.)

Promises and pipe-dreams, or steady proven stewardship. Your choice.

Here's one nobody asks Shorten, what's fair about the lowest paid workers' taxes going towards increasing the incomes of early childhood workers, who don't make the list of the most poorly paid? http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/the-lowest-paid-jobs-in-australia/news-story/318dc467751b4cd6eb317b5e72599f7a

The party that has supposedly laid out its policies for all to see well in advance, has barely been called to account. There's a litany of questions seemingly to be left unasked of Labor before it takes the reins. Just a couple more of my faves include:

1) Will rental losses be able to written off against future rental gains once NG is extinguished, hence releasing no real benefit to the aspirant government's coffers, over time, for expenditure on its multitude of promises.

2) What's fair about those on pensions paid for by the taxpayer being paid franking credits while those on pensions paid for by themselves not being paid credits?

Yawn, nah, yeah, beaudy, who gives a toss, woddever.

Talking of childcare - at $200 dollars a day in some cases, it costs more than many upper class private schools and colleges. A lot of money to have your tiny tots amused and their nappies changed when you could, and should, be home looking after them yourselves.

Some deeply despise me, some tell me constantly, I am poorly educated and being lead by the evil ALP monster
Yet what is to be gained by not involve the truth here
IT WAS Labor that opened us up to world trade, fixed the Banking system
Brought about the Royal Commision into child abuse, it WAS the LNP that sniggered about it
As the polls are telling us, it will be in all probability the voters who install LABOR as government
Snear if you wish, but Abbott Dutton Wentworth, are likely to fall
At the hands of fellow LIBERALS
Your party is split, any get together of past leaders to help open the campaign would be standing in blood and betrayal
Yet you see wrong in LABOR?
YOU tell me voters, the majority, are not as smart as you?

“The sickness in Australian politics isn’t that these two specific men happen to be leaders of the major parties, it’s that they are, at best, interchangeable facades for an immensely homogeneous and increasingly entrenched political class.” ( C.M Hendy: Spectator)

“Instead of winning the hearts and minds of the electorate it’s become easier to piss off comparatively less voters than your opposition …. “.

Right on!

Hi Belly,

Some news this morning, as you can attest, I'm usually good for a bit of inside news around these times. A phone chat with a Labor mate down south this morning, he tells me in a couple of NSW marginals latest Labor polling has the party with a 4% lead in both.

Paul yes but first an explanation
In another thread I told of a very real, but local problem, have had one of life's great joys, twice
Told the upstart I was on to him, got everything I asked for, including the opportunity to use the same words on him I once used on a grub of a boss [my reason for resigning from my last job] he never made it past his one term
Figures are good to great, in a few, one unexpected seats
Too Liberals seem unlikely to win back Wentworth
Even better Abbott is in trouble Dutton gone,big money spent in Wentworth and Abbott's seat looks wasted
BUT it is not over every vote matters believe me it can turn the chook house looks insane

The latest Essential Research poll lists, in order of importance, voter concerns:

Health
National security and terrorism
Economy

Down at No. 8, climate change.

Too bad for the Greens and confused amateur 'independents’ naively betting on the third to last issue of importance.

Goodness me - climate change not a priority?

In the past year leading up to this election, this
country has experienced rolling climate emergencies -
we've been told that huge swathes of Eastern Australia
have endured the worst droughts in a century. We've
seen on television apocalyptic scenes along the Murray
Darling River System in which 1 million fish have died.

Queensland floods have wiped out half a million cattle and
bushfires have burned close to pristine rainforests.
In usually cold Southern Tassie more bush-fires have raged
across 190,000 hectares of land and devastated old-growth
forests.

Last year was Australia's hottest year on record and as winter
begins many of the country's major cities are staring
down the barrel of water restrictions with Sydney,
Melbourne, Darwin, and Brisbane all facing the prospect
of dams at just 50% capacity.

However, on the campaign trail through warming cities,
blackened bush and scorched outback the 2 contenders for
the office of Prime Minister are trumpeting starkly
different messages about what if anything should be done to
address this crisis.

Scott Morrison - representing the current government
of the conservative Liberal Party and the National
COALition - Morrison's stance can be summed up by his
address to Parliament in 2017 - while brandishing a lump
of coal.

Climate change and its effects has always been something to
be laughed up. And that's not hyperbole from the Left.

In 2015 from former PM Tony Abbott (who once called
climate change - crap) was caught on camera laughing
about rising sea level in the Pacific.

Whereas Bill Shorten promises significant action on
climate change. There's a big difference between the two
parties and their leaders.

A recent event - the tornado that hit the coastal town of
Warrnambool in Victoria destroying a caravan park, and the
huge red dust storms near Mildura - brought the realities
of climate change home to many residents. Farmers were
losing their top soil.

There's more on the following link:

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/07/climate-change-takes-centre-stage-in-australias-election

Dear Foxy,

The preliminary Lowe Report was also enlightening.

"This year 61 per cent of voters said climate change was so serious and pressing we should address it now, even if was expensive. That is a 25 percentage point jump since 2012 and the highest number highest since 2006. But responses to that question showed stark differences between generations. Among Australians aged 18 to 29, 81 per cent thought we should take action on climate change, even if it was expensive. But less than half — 49 per cent — of those aged over 45 took the same view."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-08/australians-think-climate-change-bigger-threat-than-terrorism/11091276

This seems to be by far the biggest difference between the parties in who the electorate feels will be most effective on this issue.

We also rank pretty highly internationally on the questions of concern about climate change.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/australians-more-worried-about-climate-change-than-most-other-nations-poll-20190505-p51kb5.html

The coalition are either asleep at the wheel or willfully ignoring the issue. Shorten would have been very happy to see Morrison waving around a lump of coal in parliament, he will never get past that whatever he spouts about Coalition policies.

In actual fact in purely relative terms actions by our State governments, particularly Vic and SA have helped curb our emission acceleration quite well. But that attitude of the LNP sets them up as fair game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDtKFbXoQ6Q

Dear Steele,

Thanks for the links.

Interestingly, I watched the program last night on
the ABC - "Prince, Son and Heir: Charles at 70."

I was amazed at how ahead of his time he was in his opinions
(and practices) on sustainability, and his views on
climate change. He can't understand how people can deny
the science. A truly amazing man - yet one who's been
described as a "nutter" by ignorant people.

According to The Australian's Newspoll - this election has
nothing to do with issues like border security which
Libs are pushing. Spending on services tops the election
priority list and climate change is not far behind.

As the saying goes - You'll lose if you snooze. The Libs
need to get their act together.

I'll be watching the debate at 7.30pm tonight. Hopefully
Shorten will do another Q&A style appearance - while
Morrison remains he's own aggressive, shouty, "charming" self.

Belly,

It's not a matter of one side is always right and the other always wrong, it has to be who has the guts to do the right thing - for all the people, for industry (jobs), for the economy (to pay for education, health, childcare, aged-care, welfare, housing, population growth, etc), and for the environment, and national security.

50% electric vehicles - which will have to be in the cities and urban areas, while rural folks will probably have to go gas conversion, truckies and farmers with tractors will need to go bio-fuel, and some folks will need a bike.

Oz' climate change impact - with or without electric vehicles? Zilch.
(What is needed is to take the big international 'polluters' to task.)

Labor has done some GREAT things - under various leaders - Whitlam, Hawke, Keating.
But, not under Rudd or Gillard.

Medicare, Compulsory Superannuation, lower education fees (free University fees under Whitlam - for a while - but at the expense of what?).

On the other side, what a potential mess a Lib Gov under John Hewson could have been.

Howard introduced GST - at more than a little opposition - but this has arguably been a great step forward for benefit of the states' and territories' tax income, and has reduced various taxes including income tax - with all consumers sharing in providing the funds needed for infrastructure and services everywhere.

The Libs also sent us to Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan - but only to maintain our alliance commitments to the US.
(Without US backing Oz would be easy pickings, and have almost no say in international affairs.)

Shorten also offers uncapped, cheap, 5-year Renewable Visas for family reunion - but under what conditions? Health? 'Visitors' who may become pregnant in Oz? Impacts on services?
And why? Courting votes from immigrants - and do they even have to be nationalised Oz citizens to apply?

So, population growth is not an issue?

Big money splash, hither and thither, but without a clear visionary plan, and without verifiable costings.

Utopia? Or to hell in a hand-basket?

Continued:

Belly, and also to Foxy,

Oz' climate change impact - with or without electric vehicles? Zilch.
(What is needed is to take the big international 'polluters' to task.)

But, some poo-hoo Bob Brown - but he managed some great achievements for the Tasmanian environment and tourism.
Is the environment important? For the black-throated finch, Plains Wanderer, Koala, Wombat, or Eastern Quoll, eg.?
What a poor and odd world it would be without 'critters', ancient forests, and even bees?

Does anyone believe that those concerned about climate change are not also deeply concerned about the environment? After-all, mitigations can be taken against rising sea levels, droughts, floods and hurricanes - to protect people.
But what about the impacts on environment and species of increasing land and sea temperatures, oceanic pollution, and over population leading to land clearing, resource exploitation and many more unemployed?

A substantial renewables industry could certainly be a boon for jobs - in solar, wind and hydro, and for the economy. But, it should be on the basis of what is best for Oz, including meeting Kyoto/Paris abatement commitments by providing services in our overall best interests.

Coal? I'm still waiting for someone to take up the universal scrubbing of coal-fire power station emissions, and diversion of the CO2 into industry-sized multi-level greenhouses to supply all our major cities with all the veggies they could ever want.

I'm also waiting for someone to take up the diversion of excess northern runoff rainfall to the south (in WA and Qld) through pipes, canals, artesian basin - to provide both flood and drought mitigation, and to provide for the establishment of massive solar-powered greenhouse farms in our semi-arid inland regions reasonably adjacent to major coastal population centres.

Development to our overall national benefit, and mitigating greenhouse emissions as a by-product.

Future vision, not smoke-screens or pipe-dreams.

Oz needs to run its own race.

Dear Saltpetre,

I won't go into all the achievements of the Rudd-Gillard
government with you here. There were many. From seeing
us through the GFC to establishing the NDIS and the Royal
Commission into child sexual abuse, to name just a few
things. However, climate change is a huge problem and
can no longer be brushed aside by bringing a lump of
coal into parliament or laughing the matter off.
The following link explains:

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/07/climate-change-takes-centre-stage-in-australias-election

COAL yes it has impacts on this election
Unless something very big happens either side, on winning, will let the big one go ahead
My reason for not letting it is very different, in my view the company behind it can not be trusted, tax arrangements are shonky, we nearly, in the the end, in the short term, pay then to take it
Reality in my view is we will run out of coal, too run out of buyers
That can not be further than 100 years away
So sell it use it but do not let it kill renewables
The science is right and like it or not luddites will not change growing convictions that is true
On the issue of the environment Scomo has saddled up the ageing clerk of the courses horse ,pandering only to his right wing while Winks walks on to the track

Hi Foxy, the vested interests of Big Oil, Big Coal, etc could not argue against the science, so they chose to turn it into a political argument, and attack the messengers. The group in society most easily spooked are conservative people. It was no accident that conservative politicians pushed the anti climate change line, being beholding as they are to those vested interests. They found it relatively easy to create sceptics among their supporters. Now even those sceptics are starting to turn, and are realising climate change is real, and something must be done. Although the politicians beholding to Big Coal and Big Oil will do their best to put up some kind of phoney pretence of doing something through some soppy halfhearted nonsense, on the issue, and that's what Morrison and the Liberal party are attempting to do.

To me its a bit like the smoking causes lung cancer argument, that kicked off in the 1950's. When medical research established the link between smoking and lung cancer, the tobacco companies tried to denigrate the research and those involved. Then they turned to the nonsense argument of smokers rights and personal freedoms. All smoke screens to cloud the argument and prolong the agony. Fortunately although their tactics cost million of lives the truth eventually won out, and fag companies paid a token price through lost profits.

Luciferase, I go with the truth, not the rhetoric and spin.
Germany does place a higher value on supply reliability than most nations, but your claim that "100% fossil-fueled backup contingency is needed 24/7/365" would be dubious even if you hadn't claimed it to be "on top of its extension cords to French nuclear... and Nordic hydro". Why do you think international sources don't reduce the amount of fossil fuelled backup required? And why specify those sources in particular rather than Swiss hydro and Swedish nuclear?

Some people will oppose anything, but most of the people who oppose nuclear power do so for rational reasons.

SA does have quite a lot of diesel driven peaking equipment,much of it predating our wind turbines and solar panels. But although both of SA's interconnectors go to Victoria, and Victoria generates a large (though falling) proportion of its electricity from brown coal, your attempt to spin it as "interconnection to Victorian coal" is disingenuous because SA is a net exporter of electricity.

The Hornsdale battery isn't a 5 minute battery. Its output capacity is 10 minutes at 70MW plus three hours at 30MW. As for its cost, that's easy enough to find out with Google: $90m. See http://reneweconomy.com.au/revealed-true-cost-of-tesla-big-battery-and-its-government-contract-66888/

It's not the only big battery in the state now, and I've no doubt we will get more big batteries built and pumped storage as well. But the state is relying on private investors for this, and at the moment they're a bit nervous because of Snowy 2.0 plans. Meanwhile the installation of home scale batteries is being encouraged.

I don't know where you get this silly "shrinking pie" notion from, but Australia gets abundant energy from the sun, and it's economically competitive with nuclear energy. We should have gone with nuclear power twenty years ago, but we didn't. With hindsight (as it took longer than I expected for solar power to become competitive) nuclear power may have been viable even ten years ago. But it's too late now. Though it still has a bright future internationally; many smaller and less sunny countries have high demand.

"Germany does place a higher value on supply reliability than most nations". Spoken like one who thinks reliability should be tradable for emissions reductions. It's not how modern civilization works, but neo-Malthusians don't want modern civilization.

Forgot about the Swedes and Swiss, so thanks for the reminder. These add to the point that after absolutely humongous expense and interconnection with non-emitting sources Germany has achieved nothing on its own more than flat-lining emissions and huge consumer costs. My statement about a theoretical 100% contingency does seems excessive, I suppose, as it has only been needed up to 90% capacity in a real event,so far (24 Jan 2017):
http://docs.wind-watch.org/Hidden-consequences-intermittent-electricity-production.html

The battery cost is easy enough to find by Googling the sleuthing done to find it, not information from an open and accountable government, initially at least. The battery is only to delay blackouts, or, some profitable arbitrage enabled by the destructive disruption of the market caused by the RET. Actual grid-storage, were it batteries or anything else, would blow SA off the economic map.

So, when will Germany, and SA, cease renewables virtue-signalling while relying on baseload sources for firming that lie beyond their borders? If grid-storage is so feasible why does Germany build coal instead, and why did SA install an expensive fleet of diesel generators that cost a monza to run?

Saltpetre enjoying your posts always have
It interests me seeing how conservatives always try to crucify Labor for caring
For redistributing money to help those truly in need
To put an end to tax breaks for hosts of people who pay no tax
Your mob do hand outs to, but to such as Rupert the rat and other tax avoiders
As well as blacken our national broadcaster, what is that about? crippling an opponent
Or softening one up so as to buy it cheap [claims have become truth here so let me use it too]Did Rupert arrive in Canberra the very week Turnbull was dumped?Is a vote for Scomo one for Rupert?

Forgot the The shrinking pie.

Labor's energy policy will make Oz less competitive unless cost of compliance is subsidized for exporters by the rest of us, which is what happens in Germany. The pie effectively shrinks as each person's share of it is offset by their share of the cost of any such subsidy through the higher power prices they'll pay.

Trumps war on China is ensuring our exporters will have a hard time of it regardless of energy policy. With lower national income the pie shrinks. We need the cheapest energy possible to reduce costs to exporters, while reducing emissions.

As we near the big day we see the water has become very muddy
Well it will get worse, save the next ten days of the Gutter press, one day they will be worth money
All is possible from the mob who tapped even the Royals phones
Just a little more concern is on display from the walking Smirk scomo As he tries to get Bill to say something he, and his boss Rupert can use
After all he dare not run on policy,he has not one to tell us about

Dear Belly and Foxy,

I don't mean to be too hard on Labor, particularly considering some of the real improvements achieved by Labor for so many doing it tough - as well as for Oz citizens and the national future generally - including with NDIS and three essential Royal Commissions - and I include Banking and Aged and Disability care with Child Sexual Abuse in this, as Labor has truly been instrumental in getting these underway - and thanks Foxy for pulling me up on some of the worthwhile achievements of Julia in particular.

One thing though, on the economic front, I really think the considerable net national budget surplus and the Future Fund established under Howard/Costello, and inherited by Kevin and Julia, surely went a long way in recession-proofing Oz during the GFC.

Could the national purse have been better utilised during the crisis - say for public housing rather than cash-for-clunkers, pink batts and over-priced (and even unnecessary) school halls? Maybe.

And, as for climate change, Foxy, I can only reiterate my view (and the unblemished scientific view), that Oz' net contribution to Greenhouse is almost infinitesimal - and that's without taking into account the sequestration going on over large areas of untouched forest and bushland as we speak.

Sure I'm in favour of more renewables and sustainable alternatives to the use of fossil fuels - which are finite anyway, and oil is getting very much harder to source already. But does that mean we have to clear and burn our forests/bush to plant oil palms, the way Indonesia has done (to the expense of endangering the Orang, and contributing a huge boost to greenhouse - such that aviation had to be diverted because of the huge smoke haze?

So many issues, and so little time.

Continued:

Sure, there is good reason to go electric, but Oz is a land of sweeping plains, and electric just won't cut it for everyone.
Sure, we could build some massive solar farms, wind farms and hydro - but intensive industry (like aluminium smelting) depends on massive base-load which currently can only be supplied from coal or gas-fired power stations - and not solar, wind or hydro can match that (at least not without huge storage capacity and an enormous upgrading of electricity distribution infrastructure (with attendant cost and fire and health hazard potentials). And, have we forgotten about the health impacts of living, working, playing in proximity to high voltage power lines?

Are we to sacrifice Oz' industrial development capacity to the solar god, particularly while Trump, Putin, Xi and so many others are bent on world domination - at any cost??

One day Oz will probably have to go nuclear anyway, for intensive continuous base-load - it can be safe, and Oz has masses of uranium. (Though thorium may be a better option - if we had any).

As for Bill, he spruiks a lot of economic redistribution and high ideals, but I can't help feeling there's a lot of vote hunting in what he proposes, but not so much of an overall plan and vision. (Good ideas on cancer treatment and dental care of course, but I'm not a great believer in pushing education at kids who need time to bloom with mum and/or dad.)

Mind you, Morrison's plans don't seem to be all that visionary either, and I'm not keen on his one of the blokes general demeanor, but at least he is not rocking what is, and has been, a fairly smooth sailing craft.

Good luck to all, and more power to you.

There is no need to wait, so why waste any more time and energy on these elections: everyone knows that Labor won, not because they are any good but because our disgust of the Liberal party has reached such proportions, similar to the levels of disgust of Labor last time they were in power.

Hard times ahead for those who due to moral convictions and values are unwilling to receive even a cent from tax-payer funds. Perhaps though a ray of hope for the refugees who languish in Nauru - their cries of anguish have reached the heavens!

Dear Saltpetre,

Thank You for your gracious reply.
You make so many valid points that are worth
discussing and debating. My husband and I have
already voted. Hopefully we made the right choice.
However, I guess we shall have to wait and see
what the future will bring.

Either way, I have every confidence in our political
system, our institutions, our legal framework.
I consider ourselves to be lucky in this
country that no matter who is in power - we have
enough safeguards in place that protect us from
disaster. We are indeed the Lucky Country.

Salpetre my saying Ilike and read your posts is true whatever the content
Not the time for me to be frank, but I have never claimed my mob have got everything right
Always demand better /reform
But with a sure certainty see them as the best on offer
Too fear, true, the rise of the very right, and too the very left, [greens]
That upper house!
Surely it insults democracy
A single miss spoken word can swing the election, Morrison, [it was planned] has saved the boat people till after his Sunday opening
The chooks will flock to him, not caring to see that was the only plan he had
Labor will not restart the boats, they understand they dare not

Luciiferase,
Your inference that my statement "Germany does place a higher value on supply reliability than most nations" is
>Spoken like one who thinks reliability should be tradable for emissions reductions.
...is really quite stupid! It's neither a statement about what should be done, nor directly about emissions reduction; it's about the tradeoff between cost and reliability that exists in every country. Reliability's regarded as more important in Germany, but that doesn't mean they need the extreme level of redundancy that you claimed.

Neo-Malthusians are irrelevant.

As I said before, Germany's emissions reductions from switching to renewables are being cancelled out by there phaseout of nuclear power (which obviously they'd've been better off sticking with). Their target date for abandoning coal isn't till 2038.

Meanwhile in SA, which of course has never had any nuclear power stations, renewables have resulted in huge cuts in emissions.

FWIW I agree with you about transparency, though the problem's just as bad in the other states and common internationally too.

>The battery is only to delay blackouts,
>or, some profitable arbitrage enabled by the destructive disruption of the market caused by the RET.

I hadn't realised your understanding of the grid was that poor!

Firstly, blackouts are caused by not being able to deal with the effects of unforeseen events quickly enough. The battery provides time to deal with them, PREVENTING NOT JUST DELAYING the blackout.

Secondly, that profitable arbitrage is very useful, as it significantly reduces peak prices. And high peak prices were a problem long before the RET - if anything, the RET has alleviated them slightly.

Thirdly, the battery has also been very valuable for FCAS (frequency control and ancillary services) doing the job more effectively and far cheaper than was previously done with OCGTs.

>Actual grid-storage, were it batteries or anything else, would blow SA off the economic map.
WTF do you mean by "actual grid storage"? Considering that battery has a greater output than some power stations, why doesn't it count? How many of those batteries would be needed for you to count them as "actual grid storage"?
(tbc)

Luciferase (continued)
SA will definitely get more batteries, and probably pumped storage as well, but we'll do it in a cost effective way, whether or not it conforms to your labels. We're pursuing genuine sustainability, not mere virtue signalling. We certainly aren't relying on interstate baseload sources for firming, but we make no apologies for trading power interstate when it's profitable to do so.

>why did SA install an expensive fleet of diesel generators that cost a monza to run?
To increase generation capacity. As they're used far below 1% of the time (and only when electricity prices are very high) their running cost isn't an issue. But I doubt any more will be installed, as more batteries on the grid reduce the need for them.

>If grid-storage is so feasible why does Germany build coal instead
Storage is not an alternative to generating the power in the first place!

>Labor's energy policy will make Oz less competitive unless cost of compliance is subsidized...
Though that assumption appears sensible, IMO it is incorrect. Solar power is already cheaper than coal, but doing nothing is still the most profitable option for existing generators. Shorten's NEG will address that, bringing prices down. Their renewables target is quite pathetic, but still a lot better than the Liberals' policy which (by your standards) has had a track record of shrinking the pie.

When it comes to non-electric energy, the situation's a bit different. AIUI the policy details haven't been finalised yet, but I'd expect them to include reimplementation of some sort of ETS, which would lead to some increased costs for business. However it would also encourage greater efficiency (leading to lower costs) and a shift towards more use of electricity.

>Trumps war on China is ensuring our exporters will have a hard time of it regardless of energy policy.
Maybe, maybe not (as they've avoided doing much so far). And those that export to America stand to gain from less intense Chinese competition. Either way, the level of our dollar is likely to be a bigger determining factor, and that's ultimately self correcting.

The generators cost a monza both to build and to run and maintain, yet storage was not considered in their stead, given its so economically feasible?

Bottom line, if SA disconnected from fossil-fueled electricity it'd be stuffed. Bottom line,'grid-storage' is really important to distinguish from SA's little battery, and the label is most important:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/4260555-caiso-data-highlights-critical-flaws-evolving-renewables-plus-storage-mythology?fbclid=IwAR1IxAcE-vG4QkN8E59m4qbitjQIQA0163TAxezHIKInYyRG-EaOjsObKEA

The question "If grid-storage is so feasible why does Germany build coal instead?" obviously presumes renewables will charge it and negate the need for coal, but Germany hasn't taken that path because it is economically infeasible by comparison with building baseload. Now you're saying SA knows better than Germany? Gawd.

On the grand scale, I'm a big fan of govt's that try to grow the pie in real terms to ensure everyone gets what they need. Labor, doesn't do this as well as the Libs and concentrates instead on re-slicing a fixed pie to rob Peter and pay Paul. This election will determine what the public wants done with the pie.

Aidan,

You seem to know what you're talking about, but this one creaks:

"Shorten's NEG will address that, bringing prices down."

Surely that's a bit of a hopeful call? My understanding is that Shorten's plan to meet higher emission reduction targets relies heavily on carbon credits sourced from overseas.
Two aspects to this:
The credits will cost, with logical increased electricity and consumables costs passed directly on to consumers; and, such carbon credits are somewhat unreliable as to their efficacy - as some, or many, in the past, have proven to be spoofs.
As for other industry remediation, any improvements will cost, with the cost passed on.
Not that improvements shouldn't be made, but is this really a 'winning' formula for Oz, while other much greater emitters do almost nothing?

On another aspect, regarding electric vehicle aspirations, or other alternatives - including hydrogen.
Now we know hydrogen is explosive - or at least highly flammable (and with an intense flame not visible to the naked eye). So, that doesn't look like a good way to go.

However, I recall seeing many years ago an automotive design engineer (who I think worked for GMH), who had built a car which had an internal combustion engine fueled by hydrogen - which was produced onboard the vehicle itself from the hydrolysis of an onboard water supply. Emissions - water vapour. No carbon involved, and just a good battery required (and I expect, a nifty carburetor, and a great alternator).

What happened to this? Patent(s) bought up by the oil industry?

And, CO2 emissions used to grow oil-producing algae, or in greenhouse horticulture? Just a different kind of 'battery'?

Many options, so why should we stick to just one track?

Latest Election News;

A Liberal Party spokesman on RAPE OF WOMEN Mr Gurpal Singh the parties candidate for the Victorian seat of Scullin has resigned. According to SBS, Mr Singh reportedly dismissed a woman who detailed her experience of being raped by her husband. Mr Singh said in a Facebook post that he had "no sympathy" for the alleged victim and questioned why she had remained with her partner.

The post said the alleged rape victim had "skimmed her lover, husband and father of her two children for all these years. And now she alleges Rape". Mr Singh commented that the husband was the "real victim".

Looks like instead of heading to Canberra, good old Gurpal might be heading back to the Punjab. ITS GOODBYE GURPAL!

Paul saw it could gloat for hours about the number who had to leave tail between their legs
But on both sides
Well past time both sides of politics stopped their branches being full of people who in the end are not running anything
Poor candidates are a problem based on branch stacking and poor branches
Still good news, in place of some very very bitter stuff seen here as defeat seems sure
Labor this day tells us how it will fund its promises
And watch the awful stuff follow
Not sure why I got a warning, on posting a link, in the capitalism thread
Warned me this site is not an article site but a place for us to use our own words
Then let me post
Surely a mistake?
It all truth our views, our links, will not swing this election
Dumping Turnbull did that last year

Ex-politician, Neil Brown has come up with a truism in his weekly Spectator column this morning: “without a card to copy from, most voters would not know how to cast a valid vote if their life depended on it”.

Given the vacuous garbage being voiced here and in public in the lead up to the current election, there is doubt that most voters would be able to read the cards. And how many of the rabbits will know that certain candidates listed really shouldn't be on the card because they have dumped for something that they said years ago that might have upset those nice Muslims, homosexuals, gender-benders or abortionists.

It's all too much for the average voter, and it is quite cruel to actually force people to vote when they really don't know what it's all about

Another warning for Australians about to vote comes from David Flint, who thinks that the 2019 election is the most important since 2007, because we run the risk of being governed by “ … a cabal of thieves, thugs and constitutional vandals whose key project to constrain carbon dioxide emissions by 45 per cent will deliver …. a suicide note ….”.

He didn't mention that the leading vandal, the opposition leader, can't even cost his madcap scheme. But we all no that, don't we? Perhaps not, because there are still too many people who ignore the fact that our Chief Scientist advises that no economy-crushing action by Australia will make the slightest difference to the climate.

The rubes who ignore the Chief Scientist are the same ones who are always saying 'believe the science’; 'the science is in’. Deadly silence when our top scientists speaks honestly, though. And, ignore the fact that the UK has reduced its emissions to pre-Victorian levels with no effect whatsoever, while the politicians we are forced to the ballot box by remain the world's most fanatical devotees of discredited theories.

No wonder that they have to force people to vote in no-real-choice elections.

Flint, vainly no doubt, again points out that not even the scandalous IPPC makes the stupid - and completely untrue - claim that the climate hysterics make about 'increased extreme weather events” occurring because of climate change. Bawling Bill is still talking up this twaddle. And the government is letting him get away with it.

A shift to the right in the Senate is the only thing that will protect Australia from lunatics for the next three years - no matter which mob of lunatics is in government.

Here is Peter O'Brien's take on Bill Shorten, union official and pretender to the prime ministership:

“ Shifty, deceptive, cynical, self -serving and treacherous, as both Rudd and Gillard can attest”.

Smacks of desperation.

Keep up the good work!

Neil Brown, arch conservative, redundant Liberal politician. What Brown had to say about aspects of the incumbent government.

"It is now virtually unrecognisable. Its decline to its present state of despair"

"abject failure in every way"

"it has brought chaos"

"It was supposed to have as its centrepiece an economic plan; but if it had one, it was well concealed and buried under a mountain of gobbledegook and three word slogans"

Luciferace,
There's a very broad consensus that we need to grow the pie, but you seem to have fallen hook line and sinker for two rightwing myths: firstly that those on the left treat it as a zero sum game, and secondly that the best way to grow the pie is to give the rich a better deal!

In reality, opportunity is a much bigger limiting factor than incentive, and the small gains achievable from giving the most productive a greater incentive to work more are dwarfed by the gains that could be made by increasing the productivity of everyone else.

There doesn't seem to be any great difference between the track record of the major parties on productivity. Labor seem to have a slightly better understanding of the issue at the moment, but that's not saying much.

SA's last batch of diesel generators were originally planned to be leased, and I don't know why the previous government decided to buy them instead. But buying them rather than more batteries was perfectly reasonable, as there weren't a fleet of large batteries available at that time, and the performance of batteries was yet to be proven.

The link you supplied doesn't make the semantic claims you do. You seem to feel so threatened by the viability of grid scale batteries that you want to unilaterally disqualify anything that doesn't store power for days at a time - which is silly, as batteries are obviously not the best kind of storage on that timescale.

>Bottom line, if SA disconnected from fossil-fueled electricity it'd be stuffed.
Of course - SA usually needs considerably more electricity than it gets through wind and solar. Though the proportion generated from renewables is the second highest in the country and rising rapidly, the state's not going to decommission all its gas fired power stations any time soon! However, if SA disconnected from Victoria, SA would still be OK - it has the generating capacity.
(tbc)

Luciferase (continued)
>The question "If grid-storage is so feasible why does Germany build coal instead?"
>obviously presumes renewables will charge it and negate the need for coal
And one day they will, but the question is in the present tense, and at the moment there isn't sufficient power from renewables.

>but Germany hasn't taken that path because it is economically infeasible by comparison with building baseload.
Baseload is unlikely to be what they need, so I expect they'll start investing in storage before long.

>Now you're saying SA knows better than Germany?
Not quite - I'm saying SA's done better than Germany.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Saltpetre,
>Surely that's a bit of a hopeful call? My understanding is that Shorten's plan to meet
>higher emission reduction targets relies heavily on carbon credits sourced from overseas.
Considering how tame his reduction target for the electricity sector is, that seems very unlikely. It may be the case for other sectors though.

Hydrogen isn't as unsafe as it might appear, as it's so much lighter than air that it gets out of the way pretty quickly. There have been several experimental hydrogen vehicles - some using fuel cells, some using hydrogen in engines. There have also been vehicles with engines using hydrogen together with other fuels. However what you're describing sounds more like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car

And CO2 emissions can be reused, but though the production advantages of doing so may be great, the emissions advantages are small, as it's effectively a substitute for atmospheric CO2 inputs.

Given one posters lurch in to fantasy land, we seem free to say anything we want to
We can only hope that freedom is for those of us who rebut the silly right of reality stuff
An election will not be turned because voters are lard heads
The chook pen empowers right of reality and yes the greens, but remember,all of them, together, can change nothing
YES I think the greens harm Labor
Too that the equally strange right harm the LNP
Above all they, in my view, stall real change real policy implementation on both sides

Morrison & LIB/NAT took a helluva gamble not to address the asset test for old age pensioners before this election.

Dear Paul,

Neil Brown is spot on.

We've noticed with many people who in the past supported
the Liberal Party have now withdrawn, even more since the
disappearance of Malcolm Turnbull from the scene.

Dear Belly,

Listened to the Budget as presented by Chris Bowen.
It sounded rational and workable (functional). A
pity he does not want a higher position.

All in all it seems when comparing the parties that
under the Libs:

The rich will get richer, some of it may trickle down
to the poor.

Under Labs - things will be allocated fairly, everyone pays
and gets a fair share.

So all in all - under the Libs -
if you're poor and on the street - the rich may drop a coin
into your hat. Under the Labs - all will pay and all
will benefit.

The choice is clear.

cont'd ...

Dear Belly,

I see that more Liberal candidates are withdrawing.

I can't help wondering if the current government will
expand their Coalition to include Clive Palmer's
United Australia Party into their fold as well as
Pauling Hanson's One Nation.

Scott Morrison seems to be evasive when those
parties are mentioned.

Hi Foxy and Belly,

We over emphasise the authority of the leader, true the PM is the public face and often the mouthpiece of the political wing of the government, but he or she is not the government in total. Australia is not as yet an elected dictatorship as Trumps America appears to be, but rather a parliamentary democracy. Morrison more less will have us believe he is a one man band, and in total control of policy and direction, not so. Nothing could be further from the truth. Morrison, like Shorten, will have to deal with the factions within the party. That is not to mention outside influences that dominate much of political life in Australia. Interesting times ahead.

Foxy/Paul how do, hugly funny storey in the SMH ONLINE
Never put a link but boy it is good, worth the read humor about the latest refugee
Foxy all politicians tell porky pies, as opposed to the few who are indeed pork pies
Bowen is great, every one knows he is a future leader
Including him
Many exist on our front bench just as good our deputy leader can become PM too
Looking good after release of costings, scomo must try policy as sneer and smear is not working

Dear Belly,

I watched the current Government's budget reply
today to the Opposition's budget costings. I found it
strange that Christ Bowen was able to deliver
the budget - yet it took
two people (Cormann and Frydenberg) to deliver
the reply. And Frydenberg kept looking to
Cormann to make sure he was giving the correct
answers. - Not a good look.

Would not Foxy, want either giving my party policy
Both are let's say not doing much to help Morrison maybe they can,BY Keeping silent for eight days

Dear Belly,

Their silence now won't protect them.

They'll be paying for their in-action.

Our greatest living conservative, John Stone, reminds us of a similarity - forgotten in the arguments about mainly BS policies - between Bill Shorten and Scott Morrison: neither man believes in anything. John Howard wore his beliefs about the direction Australia should be going on his sleeve; so did Bob Hawke, and even the rascal, Paul Keating; but not the two plastic men we have vying for the job of Prime Minister in 2019. Neither has done anything during the past three years to earn our trust. The next three years will be even more dismal with either of them.

Interesting that super conservatives consider wasting their vote an option
Surely informed voters know, understand, no minor party can govern?
That true believers on both sides are repelled by such as Palmer Hanson and the rest
As only Labor or LNP can win, why not vote for the one you think is best
Hanson and Palmer have form, both will be what they always have been lonely backbenchers trying desperately to keep their elected members in their team
They both have failed to do that in past elections
I live in hope, hope the day comes both majors combine in the chook pen to pass bills so isolating the featherless chickens

ANOTHER LIBERAL IN TROUBLE.

"The Liberal candidate for the Northern Territory seat of Lingiari, Jacinta Price, is again under fire for using social media to post anti-Islamic content, and for dismissing an Aboriginal man for being “white”. The guardian

This woman is another one of Morrisons loose cannons, try as he will, its difficult for Morrison to keep defending all these haters in the Liberal party.

There are something like 16.5 million voters out there, of whom 5% will decide the next government. Arguments between a few wankeroos on OLO won't be taken into account.

Some people are so unaware of what influences
others. They tell us that our opinions don't
count. Yet they continue to post and voice their
own opinions nevertheless.

Our votes do count - and they will make the difference
at this coming election.

Keep up the good work folks!

A sensible and important “warning” from Scott Morrison:- the Greens are a greater political threat to economic and national security than Clive Palmer and Pauline Hanson’s One Nation, and Labor is moving ­closer to the minor party’s ­“extreme views”.

Rather belatedly, Morrison has woken up to facts already know by ex-Liberal voters who turned their backs on the party during the time the rotter Turnbull took up most of the extremism of both the Greens and Labor.

Too late, Scotty. The Australian Conservatives are well ahead of you with a recent statement on the Greens:

“Now they've reached their full height, we now know they are toxic - sending their communist roots through our educational and media institutions, dividing Australia, reaching out to the UN to control our lives, enticing hordes of immigrants, spreading globalist seeds across the nation and wrecking our economy with carbon taxes”.

Yes folks, listen to the people like Pauline Hanson's
One Nation and Clive Palmer's United Australia Party
instead.

Those parties are walking colons - if you cut them open
you only end up covered in crap!

Yep. A dozen or so posters, saying the same things ad nauseum, will have a tremendous effect on the election. All over the country, people are waiting with bated breath to see a couple of neo-com wafflers and wankeroos decide the future of Australia.

I'm amazed that Antony Green, Leigh Sales and other political commentators haven't mentioned how the election result hinges on their votes. Could it be that they, and 99.9% of the population, are unaware of these delusional idiots or the existence of OLO!

Ps. One of these people has already voted so, if in the week running up to election, half the people she voted for are revealed as really bad eggs, she won't be able to do a thing about it. People who vote on the actual poll date, having heard everything, are the ones who will decide the government; and we don't know what they will do. Polls and 'expert' opinions count for nothing, as was proved by a certain president who was never, ever going to be president.

Our votes do count. There are many people who
have already voted and their decisions do
matter whether others like it or not.
The fact remains that people nowadays prefer to
vote early to avoid the crowds on election day.

Many people vote for their "teams." Australians
love their foot-ball teams.
Win or lose they'll support them. No matter how
badly they do.

Further to the AC's viewpoint, ttbn, the Greens have worked out nobody votes for them when they show their colour and come from the front, so you can expect a good number of so-called 'independents' to be closet Greens.

They have applied this camouflage in local council elections to some effect over the last couple of years, masquerading as ordinary folk wanting to to the best for their community then pushing to dump recognition of Australia Day, for example. R de Natale promotes the greening of local politics knowing this tactic, I believe.

Aidan, renewables + storage = dispatchable electricity = baseload

To claim Germany doesn't have enough power to charge storage can be fixed by them building sufficient renewable generation along with grid scale-storage, but they chose to build coal instead. There's a lesson in economics right there that you SA reject, on SA's behalf. That's the problem with the dreamers, of which you are proud to be one, they think it's always just poor execution that causes failure, not the concept itself, with socialism being an example.

To power a modern civilization grid-scale storage is needed for days at a time. In no-nuke, no fossil fuels scenario, I'm not focused on batteries in my critique. All grid-scale storage widely employable in Oz is way too expensive for what it provides, Snowy 2.0 included even though it's not the ground-up PHES build that would be necessitated elsewhere at much higher cost.

...if SA disconnected from Victoria, SA would still be OK - it has the generating capacity." if that is true going forward it's thanks to massive expenditure on buying and running the new diesel fleet, nothing to do to do with intermittent renewables, which is what the diesel is there to backup. (cont'd)

(cont')

Anyway, no doubt you're unmoved by any reality presented and this thread is not solely about Labor's (more) ruinous energy policy. The day there is a feasible, viable new grid-scale storage technology breakthrough, I will recognize it and join your renewables enthusiasts glee club. Until then, I'll focus on proven solutions that are actually in front of us to power modern 24/7/365 civilization world-wide. I believe man can dominate this planet and do right by it and him/herself

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election-2019/a-chance-to-re-elect-the-greatest-political-campaigner-of-his-generation-20190510-p51lzb.html
Tony Abbotts sister wrote the link, worth a read
Now lower house,will Palmers reincarnation win a seat? unlikely odds about five to one on against
Will one nation, same again
Will Australian Conservatives, same again
Greens hold one, can they make it two,more likely than any of the above but not banking on it
That leaves the senate,will one nation win another seat? even in their strong hold Queensland?
No easy task Palmer is taking their base
Palmer? what can he, or for that matter any small party achieve?
Not much at all.

Dear Belly and Foxy,

All I can say is - be careful what you wish for.

We all have biases, but the danger is when we allow these to cloud our vision.

I wish it was as simple as taking all that is presented as totally legitimate and achievable, and believe without reserve in the total integrity of the system and all of the players. No can be.

Should we fall unwittingly into the error of judging every book by its cover, rather than critically evaluating the entire contents, why then, we prove to be human, emotional and inevitably, fallible.

Just to consider a few of the matters being proposed:

If removing negative gearing is such a good idea, why was it so hastily discarded by Paul Keating?
Recognition of a substantial vote-loser, or of an economy brake, job loser and all-round bad idea?

Why penalize those who have worked hard, and fairly, and built a nest-egg including some dividend-producing shares as insurance for their retirement against any severe reduction in interest rates on bonds or term deposits? Should we blame them, and penalize them for such foresight?
When I bought my first home, around 1993, the home loan interest rate was 17%, and term deposit rates were around 10%.
Dividends currently of 5-7% annually, measure up rather well against the current (and long term) RBA base rate of 1.5%, don't you think??
What could those poor blighters have been thinking?

Tax incentives were placed on superannuation savings to induce greater savings (as was the introduction by Labor of compulsory superannuation) - greater savings to reduce future calls on the aged pension.
So, what's changed, to induce reducing those tax incentives?
A necessary action to hedge against a potential national budget blow-out?
Similarly, changes to capital gains tax? Again, Budget hedging?

What's next?

A clean, green Oz? What do you think we've got now?
(Wow, look at all that nasty pollution killing our trees and native animals?)

Continued:

Ultimately, the best way to improve the fortunes of those doing it tough, those lowest on the peg and trying to move up, is to build the economy for everyone, making sure everyone can have a job, building loads of well designed public housing, keeping prices and inflation in check, and ensuring those on the top of the ladder pay their rightful contributions to the public purse.
But, not by 'raiding' the savings of those who have provided for their own retirement so as not to have to call on the aged pension.

A perfect world? Not any time soon.
Everything worthwhile has to be worked for, saved for, and in sure and certain confidence that some government is not going to come along and take it away from you, to give it to someone else who hasn't yet put in the hard yards.

Ethics, integrity, honour and justice for all, and nothing less.

Dear Saltpetre,

My husband and I have already voted.

I have every confidence in our choice.

Talking about football.
If a team keeps changing captains
and keeps losing players - is it
a winning team and should we support it?

Dear Foxy,

Change is a necessary function of progress.

To keep doing the same thing while expecting a different outcome is akin to a belief, held by some, that Donald Trump's election success was at least partially attributable to divine intervention.

I believe in freedom of choice, whether in voting or in religious belief, but I don't have to be happy if the exercise of choice by some should facilitate deleterious impacts on the majority - either immediate or over the longer term.

It is a vexed world, and I agree with your earlier post, that Oz is indeed the 'Lucky Country' - without doubt the very best country on this finite planet - by rather a long margin.

The chips will fall where they may, and we will live with it, and make the best of it, but the elderly should not be made to suffer inordinately simply because they are no longer able to contribute fully to national economic aspirations - particularly when they have done their very best not to be a burden.

The foundation has been established by many hands to ensure a bright future for our nation's young and eager. Would it that other nations could put away their swords and undertake to do the same.

Salpetre,

Labor has promoted jealousy through inter-generational and class-warfare. It has pitted parent against child, business against employee, which we can only evolve away from rather than shift sharply.

I've personally evolved from a view that levers are used to tilt the playing field to one that there is no conscious, malevolent control. I understand people feeling differently.

Unions make a great deal of a comment by Mathias Cormann, for example, where he pointed out that the system does not work to allow labour unfettered access to business profits, not that it necessarily works against labour and wage rises. Whatever, the union message resonates because factors including local market forces (e.g increased immigration), automation and globalism have conspired world-wide against labour (and arguably small business), and those affected want someone to pay.

The young have been told that they deserve to afford a home near mum and dad who bought 30 years ago where it was then less desirable than now. They've been given subsidized child care (heading towards universally free in the future, it looks) so they can apply double incomes at enduringly low interest rates to bid for home purchases in areas of tight supply. Then they're told it's the fault of the greedy using NG (will rental losses be able to be realized in another way, Bill, Chris, anyone?) and excessive CGT concessions (given reasonably in lieu of the ability to index the cost base), that sets prices even though these factors have existed through both market rises and falls for decades.

I agree that Oz can always be made fairer, that Labor has a few ideas about this, but I disagree with some of its solutions, many based in jealousy and unlikely to return much to the coffer. What you think you may fairly deserve through your own effort and planning must now give way to what others believe they deserve as a solid social wage without the same effort. Oz will evolve away from this as the young grow older and gain more perspective through experience, IMO.

Currently labor has them whipped into frenzy.

Dear Saltpetre,

I am in total agreement with you about the elderly,
and the vulnerable in this country. We judge a society
by the way it treats its vulnerable. That's why investments
in our hospitals, our aged care, our schools, our
infrastructure, are so important. They need the support
of our governments.

We are so lucky to be living in Victoria - where the
government acts first and then asks to be re-elected.
Unlike some others who make promises and don't deliver.

I'm pleased that we have found something we can agree on.
We should judge politicians by their actions not their
words.

“"The fact remains that people nowadays prefer to
vote early to avoid the crowds on election day".

Well, that is NOT a legitimate reason to be granted an early vote. To vote early you you have to be:

Outside the electorate where you are enrolled to vote
Are more than 8kms from a polling place
Are travelling
Can't leave your workplace to vote
Are seriously ill, infirm or due to give birth shortly
Are in hospital and can't vote there
Have religious beliefs that prevent you from attending a polling place
Are in prison
Are a silent elector
Have a reasonable fear for you safety

However, it would not be hard for those used to lying and cheating to claim one of those conditions or situations, and I bet a hell of a lot do.

Fancy making judgements on people who
vote early - and their reasons for
doing so.

Is it any one's business?

Some people need to mind their own.

But then I guess these are the people who
have a psychological makeup that has a distinctive
set of traits that includes conformity, intolerance,
and insecurity. Typical of many prejudiced people.

They see the world in very rigid and stereotypical terms.

I wasn't making judgements, little Miss Kneejerk. I listed the conditions necessary for having an early vote. I made no aspersions against you, but given your reaction to my harmless post, I could be forgiven for thinking that you didn't fulfill any of the requirements. Your unwarranted fuss suggests that I should speak to a senator I'm acquainted with and ask if early voters should be investigated; their numbers have doubled since the last election.

In the end voters do get it right, and they are about to do just that, elect the ALP
Oh yes the fear and loathing is aimed at Bill, and unions
See they dare not run on their record
And unions? in the end the LNP is our biggest union, for the rich and super rich
Vote early? got to laugh, tell you are story, pay attention
Bloke in the union movement ALWAYS votes at the last second!
He tells us it is just in case we need his vote at the end of counting

I referred to "....what others believe they deserve as a solid social wage without the same effort." which may be misread by whoever is left on this thread.

I acknowledge the disabled and wish to see more done, as both major parties and especially the Greens have positive policies towards.

I acknowledge the working poor. This is where I started in life. They exist, have existed under all govt's, and we need to acknowledge them, whether they are the self-employed or employed by others. Our social system must support them better, but nobody is responsible for lifting them to equal outcomes but themselves.

Equality of opportunity in Australia is not quite the problem Labor paints. I acknowledge its policies towards improving this, but it has improved under LNP's policies, too.

Contrary to the picture Labor and the unions have painted, the Liberal Party is not the wicked champion of divisive, unfettered capitalism, though there are those at its extreme. It's a broader church than that, and one in which I have taken a pew since losing faith in Labor under the rise of Shorten, the Great Divider and Pied-Piper leading our children towards expensive, ineffective energy policy.

ttbn,

Apology accepted.

Anything from you I take personally. Can't help
it because of your past history with me.
As far as I'm concerned your saying that you meant
no harm is like the spider saying to the fly -
"Ï'll wrap you up neatly."

BTW: I am having an operation and I had to vote
early.

I'm happy to see millions vote pre-poll if they so wish. It gives me something to do during the day. I'll vote on Friday, too bust handing out HTV's on Saturday to vote.

Scott Morrison is in Melbourne and - hey big spender -
he's promising to spend $30 million on a global
netball hub here in Melbourne and that's in addition to
$15 million for a new home for the Matildas also in
Melbourne.

What about more women in Parliament if he's really
concerned about women's issues?

Then there's also our koalas - doomed for extinction.
They need saving.

Just saying.

Foxy,

You obviously see what you want to see. I didn't apologise. I just said that I wasn't casting aspersions but just listing legitimate reasons for early voting and you gave me your reason, which is what I wanted. You certainly do have a lot health problems.

I wonder what Paul's excuse is. It wouldn't be a brain scan.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election-2019/the-mood-has-turned-prized-seat-of-higgins-on-a-knife-edge-as-liberal-vote-heads-south-20190511-p51ma9.html
Read it, consider it, is it true, well yes it is
Blind Frederick riding by on a galloping horse can see it, the election is lost
Why the surprise, did anyone think that well worn and torn much used rug, fear loathing lies, would work again
Policy
That word is what was needed, not Vote Shorten you get Shorten
Truth is vote scomo you get hollow man, not policies just schoolyard bully
Foxy ttbn using such on younand Paulisa complement.

http://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/why-do-some-labor-types-hope-tony-abbott-wins-warringah-20190510-p51m4z.html
In all truth this is a bit naughty, but I wish
But in vain, see Tony cannot survive, he will be removed not by Labor but another Liberal
First shot in the war about to start to reclaim the Liberal party, by? the Liberal party

Hi Foxy, you never need an apology from the likes of ttbn, such apologises are worthless.

Obvious ttbn you could not vote early, telling the electoral official; "I'm a poor excuse for a human being, that's my excuse!" wont wash, and they will send you away.
BTW, they don't generally ask for a reason these days.

BBTW, I recall how cock-a-hoop you were when Bernardi broke away from the Liberals and formed the Conservative Party. You thought the messiah had arrived, did you not, even claimed membership. What a let down, worth about 1% of the vote, you now never mention them or your allegiance.

Foxy,

Happy Mother's Day. You to Pauline. Regards to the wahine.

I wouldn't be surprised that they didn't ask for reasons for early voting in this slack and dishonest Green world. It will get slacker and sleazier if Greenback Bill gets in.

What's your problem with Cory Bernardi, Pauline? Why do you think your constant criticism is a way of getting at me? I think Bernardi is an arrogant person who likes the sound of his own voice. Sorry to disappoint you.

Yes. I am a member of the Australian Conservatives. Yes I donate to them. Yes I will be voting for them in the senate - a proper vote, 12 below the line. There are 12 conservative candidates in SA - I don't have to preference any of your commo friends, including Senator Thunder Thighs-Hanson, who admits that she is packing the poo at this election.

We won't know that AC will get your 1% of the vote until after the election. If they do as poorly as the Greens always do, I will drop them like a hot rock: failures are no use to me. As for your regular harping and bed wetting about Bernardi, go for it. But, only intellectually-challenged people like you think that nice people go into politics. Bernardi is just another name on a ballot paper, like the rest of them - a necessary evil and human rubbish.

Forgot to mention: more than double the number have slipped in an early vote; 1.5 million of them. Probably organised by the comrades so that they can get the votes before the truth about them comes out. It will get worse if Pauline is right about the no-questions-asked attitude of the incompetent of the AEC.

Just a few predictions.

If Shorten wins,

1/- The boats will be running again with in 3 months.

2/- He will send the gate crashers in detention to NZ, & with in 6 months they will all be in Oz.

3/- With in a year of his ridiculous alternate energy policy our power prices will be up by 50%, & have doubled by the end of the governments term.

Obviously I hope these predictions won't be tested, or the last one, that our budget deficit will blow to hell, & our net debt double in 3 years.

On Opportunity:

My wife and I we pushed the bounds
From a rental in Erskineville
With two jobs each, and overtime
And an eye to Annandale;
Determined on our kids behalf
To give them a good leg up
To future proof their chance to thrive
Through housing boom or bust
We found a rundown quite near by
And managed a small deposit;
We never overspent our means
On trinkets booze or smokes
We ran no car but walked to work
The Bank made no concession;
And by some means we made it through
With my brother and his wife and kids
To share our modest rented home
Our meagre simple lot;
Crammed tight it’s true
Kids bunking all and bathroom running hot;
We never got to Annandale
Still rent still work still dream
But our kids and those of my brother too
Will have that chance to thrive
Through the choices that we made for them
As our lives went from strength to strength;
In honesty and with no begrudge
The offsets then allowed
Gave four kids homes
And quite near by
And it’s Rookwood next for us.

Dear Foxy,

Sorry to hear you need an op,
I hope it all goes well,
I'm sure you'll be back,
going from strength to strength,
to keep all those radicals honest.

All the very best,
and I hope you get all you wish for.

Pete, xo

My predictions then
Shorten wins
He, *knowing* voters demand it, will stop the boats
But yes some will test the waters and come, may even be on the way
Shorten, *knowing the future of the ALP demands it* will balance the budget
People warm to Bill
Who will lead the defeated Liberals
Will it become, for a short time, two parties
Scomo has a great family
He almost cried with love and pride as he saw them off the stage
Nearly as much as the day he lost Ruperts phone number

Good Afternoon Everybody,

We've just come back from a lovely lunch with
our children and grandchildren. We did not
discuss politics at all. Surprisingly.
The Bistro was full of happy smiling faces.
The food was excellent, as was the service.
All mums got a glass of champers - and a ticket
in a lottery to be drawn later this afternoon.
There's three prizes - I'm hoping I may win one.

Anyway, politically we're on the last week.
I hope that things will calm down a bit during
the week - although I suspect it won't - it
may even get nastier.

What a shame if that happens. We may disagree on
many things but I think that all of us should be
able to see how lucky we really are in this country.
No matter who gets into government - we haven't
much to really complain about, compared to some
other countries.

Anyway, I'm feeling very positive at the moment.
Perhaps it's the champers

Good to see you had a good day Foxy, hope all mums did
Watched Scomo only reinforced my view he is gone
It will warm up, I TRULY think a refugee boat may arrive before Saturday [escorted by the navy?]
It will get very dirty but in the end may hurt them not the target
After all such rubbish tells us they think voters are silly

Luciferase, baseload doesn't equal dispatchable electricity.

Energy economics in Germany are very different from SA:
SA is a very sunny state; Germany is not.
Demand per square kilometre is high in Germany but low in SA (so finding additional good wind farm sites is much easier in SA than in Germany).
If SA, or anyone else, was in Germany's situation, I'd suggest they opt for nuclear power. Indeed I still think that would've been the wisest course of action for Germany. But they chose otherwise. Do you still think Germany knows better?

Meanwhile in SA, nuclear and coal are both expensive options; we don't have Germany's disadvantages, so it's already cheaper to go with renewables.

Little if any storage is needed to meet Shorten's pathetic renewable energy targets. Your fixation on getting enough storage for several days' grid consumption at a time (which probably won't be needed until we're at 90% renewables) blinds you to the reality of what storage can do already. And while there are likely to be some big breakthroughs in storage (including batteries based cheap elements like iron and sodium) a lot of the cost improvements are instead likely to be the result of many smaller breakthroughs.

>it's thanks to massive expenditure on buying and running the new diesel fleet,
>nothing to do to do with intermittent renewables, which is what the diesel is there to backup
Actually they're there mainly to cater for high demand situations, and AIUI the last few of those occurred on very hot days (when solar output was high) and very cold days (when wind output was high). And IIRC the new diesel fleet have only run for two days so far - and one of those was purely for export (to alleviate a power shortage in Victoria when one of their coal fired generators failed).

If you skip the rhetoric and look at the facts, you'll see that although the diesel generators and the intermittent renewables have both paid a role in the reestablishment of SA's electricity supply independence, the generators running on natural gas have been far more significant.

I do like this sign at the Gosford Anglican Church this Sunday.

https://i.redd.it/y6ou7sn20ox21.jpg

Dear Steele,

Thank You for the link.

It echos Katharine Murphy - political editor of
The Guardian's comments on Mr Morrison's Liberal
Party launch today, Sunday 12/05/2019.

I didn't watch the launch - but according to
Murphy, Scott Morrison was asking voters to forget
that the Libs have been more pre-occupied with tearing
each other down than they were in building the country
up.

To forget that they have wasted two terms in government -
wasted the loyalty of their supporters. To forget all
the disappointments they actually delivered. To forget that
they've been self-absorbed and rudderless and try to
imagine what they could deliver if only voters were
generous enough to send them back for a 3rd go.

It's a big ask.

I guess we'll see what the voters decide next Saturday.

This morning the news is all election and that will be the case all week
Scomos new housing offer, matched by Shorten, may not be good business practice
America kicked of the GFC in housing, as too many got home loans they could not pay
Another worthwhile read is the Tony Abbott one, seems his electorate now, for the first time, has more young voters than old, this may impact as the elderly are near welded on Liberals
Shorten [still behind in the prefered PM] has picked up three points Morrison lost two 51/49 it will be the targeted seats that win or fall for each party
Both sides are good at putting resources in to seats they target

Hi Belly,

The Liberals are getting desperate, I fronted the Federal (Liberal) member when he was out trying to press the flesh with locals. I asked what he (personally) had achieved for the local community in the last 3 years. Like a parrot, he tried the usual, 1.25 million jobs, etc, etc...cut him short. "Nah, I asked you what you have directly done for the local community in 3 years, not the future broad party promises". He's done nothing of course, just been part of the Liberals infighting in Canberra.

How naive is Paul, not knowing that ALL politicians, including the Greens, represent their parties, not the electorate. And, if you vote for an independent, he or she will be representing himself or herself and their own petty concerns.

Such ignorance explains his dumb posts.

ttbn, how are you going with your adulation of Corny Banana, the one you were trumpeting as the next messiah. You backed the wrong horse with that clown, did you not. What involvement have you ever had with politics? You lack of knowledge is astounding. Many politicians on both sides do much for their local community, its part of their job. You wouldn't know because you have never been involved.

Paul yes in the end most gets done by the seat holder just before an election
See scomo got a little out of balance, imitating a real estate agent this morning
He is trying but is a one man band as it would be hard to find a clean skin to help him out in his team

Aidan,

"Your fixation on getting enough storage for several days' grid consumption at a time (which probably won't be needed until we're at 90% renewables) blinds you to the reality of what storage can do already."

Non-grid-scale storage is profitable in a market disrupted by the RET, and might even slow blackouts. But you accept the ultimate need for massive grid-scale storage capacity, which is great because the rest of your argument is a pea'n'thimble trick on the gullible.

Your codswallop about nuclear in Oz is predicated on renewables + storage actually being a solution. You equate a solution with a non-solution then compare them.

It might interest you to know more about imminent nuclear options besides those existing, that are intended to provide much cheaper electricity than intermittent renewables+storage will ever provide. Those speaking in the link are not dreamers about future breakthroughs as you are about storage, but are already taking us to the near future. Not mentioned are Terrestrial in Canada, and developments in China Russia and India. I'm agnostic on where our future nuclear technology comes from, as long as it comes. http://tinyurl.com/y47jztfd

On another matter, and to keep faith with the thread, it disturbs me that my taxes are going towards Triple J Hack touring the country to whip up millenials for Labor.

Paul,

You really are thick. How many times do you need to be told what I think about Cory Bernardi before you get the message that he means nothing at all to me? You are the one who is always talking about him. Here, again, is my latest response to your stupid ravings about him.

“What's your problem with Cory Bernardi, Pauline? Why do you think your constant criticism is a way of getting at me? I think Bernardi is an arrogant person who likes the sound of his own voice. Sorry to disappoint you.

Yes. I am a member of the Australian Conservatives. Yes I donate to them. Yes I will be voting for them in the senate - a proper vote, 12 below the line. There are 12 conservative candidates in SA - I don't have to preference any of your commo friends, including Senator Thunder Thighs-Hanson, who admits that she is packing the poo at this election”.

That was yesterday; apparently too long ago for your goldfish brain apparently. You want to talk about horses? Well, you are whipping a dead one, you crashing bore. But you have probably already forgotten what you said about betting the wrong horse in your last rant. Given your lack of just about everything, that comment, before the election, is really stupid.

As this is the last time that I will ever recognise you, I would like to thank you so much for referring to me as a “poor excuse for a human being”. You are certainly in tune with your very unpleasant Green leader.

Strictly for sane posters - i.e. none Greens - there is a good article in The Spectator online today, about the Greens, titled “ Naive, nasty, noxious and negative”. It paints the party as one interested only in protest and division.

Labor voters, particularly, should read it and ponder whether or not they would want a Labor government replying on these nasties. Bill Shorten has said that he will not do any deals with the Greens, and he chucked off at a Liberal politician who came at him with some idiocy of di Natale's by saying that the Liberal apparently spent 'more time thinking about di Natale than I do’. A good sign, but will he stick with it? We might be able to survive a Labor government; but we will not survive a Labor government beholden to the Greens. They turned even Gillard's stomach eventually.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election-2019/why-scott-morrison-had-to-make-a-last-minute-policy-push-20190511-p51mc6.html
The election is not over, nt won, yet
Scott Morrison has *run a good race*
He had little choice other than to focus on himself v Bill Shorten
He dare not run on his party,s record
But in all honesty he has been good
A few silly steps, letting his view on climate change be heard,the anti union stuff
But any defeat should not be seen as his
He did the best with what he had, very little

Luciferase,
>Non-grid-scale storage
...including what everyone but you regards as grid-scale storage
>is profitable in a market disrupted by the RET,
It would be profitable even without the RET.
>and might even slow blackouts.
LOL! You can't even bring yourself to admit that it will eliminate most (possibly all) of those blackouts caused by supply shortages, so you phrase your response in a way that could be construed as meaning you think it could prolong blackouts!

You pretend to be the arbiter of what qualities as a solution, but leave the problem very loosely defined and compare future nuclear technology to present (or possibly past) renewables and storage.

On another matter, I find it disturbing that you think fairness, or Labor's policy, equates to class warfare!
Under the Hawke-Keating government, Australia almost became a classless society. I don't know whether or not it was a direct result of the Accord, but there was a great sense that we were all on the same side. However class divisions reemerged in the Howard era, and have stayed ever since. And when Gillard announced she wanted class warfare, it was the worst thing she ever did (including the carbon tax) as it allowed Abbott to wage class warfare on the nation in the name of defending us from it. And whenever class warfare is waged, the poor always lose most.

I'm not a fan of the economic policies of any party, but closing tax loopholes is a sensible move (though I agree whether someone's on the pension shouldn't be the determining factor for imputed credit eligibility and I'm hoping that's something the crossbench senators will be able to fix).

And why don't you think people deserve the option of living near their parents? I'm pro immigration and pro globalization, but I think governments should address the negative aspects of the results rather than ignoring them.

I just saw a Labor Ad showing Turnbull with morrison when Morrison says "He's my leader & I'm ambitious for him".
The Voiceover then hints that Turnbull shouldn't have trusted him & neither should we. That's a straight-out lie because Morrison stuck with Turnbull !
Then again I should know better & expect no better when it come to Labor making statements !

So, your Little Battery That Could stops the blackouts, eh? Nothing to do with a new fleet of diesel-gens? OK....

The problem is emissions and what to do about them. What qualifies as a solution is one that is proven, not one based on supposition, hope and fantasy. Anyway, we've been there, done that.

Your theory on class-warfare is charming. CGT was introduced by Labor and that was not considered class warfare because income from employment was equally taxed and the cost-base of assets was indexed. Indexation was later supplanted by a concession in lieu, meaning people can make a loss in real terms yet pay CGT, and that was not considered class-warfare. By reducing this concession socialists now want more from those people who risk capital. In the same way, unless we learn something new on this before the election, socialists want to remove NG and for investors to wear income losses while their profits are taxed in the year they are made. Throw in prejudice applied to who can receive imputed credits and we have a trifecta of issues all sold to the public by Shorten as tax-loopholes and government gifts enjoyed by the 'big end of town'. He tells us these greedy folks, who turn out to be mostly ordinary folks, are stopping cancer treatments, better child-care, university opportunities, etc. I don't recall any time in the last forty years where such bald rhetoric has been the norm, such that I feel like a pariah as a working man?

(cont'd)

(cont'd)

I also have to justify myself to my twenty-something children who have swallowed the rhetoric hook-line and sinker, believing all I have achieved, to raise them and pay for my retirement, is through screwing my fellow man and affecting their ability to afford a home. Bill Shorten did that, while telling them I'm dumb, and worse, for questioning the cost of his climate policy.

They say my generation raised the cost of university places from being free under Whitlam, but don't understand that to qualify for a free place entry requirements were much tighter because they were quite limited then. Children are pitted against parents, yet my generation was not afforded the cost of child-care to work to provide them comforts beyond the love and direct care we provided.

Nobody deserves anything they haven't the capacity to afford, including living where they would like. Where your parents built a home became more desirable as urban sprawl grew, hence more valuable. Shorten is telling our children they deserve more while fanning jealousy towards those who've worked and planned under fair rules he manufactures as foul.

I said, "Nobody deserves anything they haven't the capacity to afford..." sounded unintentionally Darwinian. I refer to aspirations beyond basic food, shelter, clothing, education and healthcare.

The problem is emissions and what to do about them.
Luciferace,
It's so ironic that those who are vehemently bleating green power are the biggest users of coal & petroleum !

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election-2019/minor-parties-flourish-across-the-spectrum-as-new-voting-system-faces-first-test-20190513-p51mpu.html
A link worth reading, it is about the impact of small party,s in the senate
Right now going to say, whoever is elected, may, almost surely, consider setting up for a Double Dissolution election, even in the first year of the new parliament
It confronts me, that a elected government must kowtow to minorities
Even have the very mandate that won them power stalled
Do not agree? ask yourself it it is YOUR SIDE being stalled would your answer change

Dear Belly,

«Do not agree? ask yourself it it is YOUR SIDE being stalled would your answer change»

I don't have a "side".
I have my views,
I think for myself.

Your ancestors have entrenched an unfair electoral system whereby only one of some historical two "sides" can win, rule over and control the innocent population of the country.

The existence of the senate mitigates this to a certain degree.
Therefore I will always preference all the small parties and independents first and your two "sides" last.

It seems to be your view that unless I belong to or identify with one of two historical camps, I should have no say regarding those forces that attempt to control my life, telling me what I must and must-not do.

Whatever your views, just please do not call this "democracy" as this is an assault on intelligence and common sense.

Just for Belly. An email from a friend, a Labor supporter with a sense of humour.


• The Pope and Bill Shorten are on the same stage in Sydney Stadium in front of a huge crowd.

The Pope leans towards Shorten and said, "Do you know that with one little wave of my hand I can make every person in this crowd go wild with joy? This joy will not be a momentary display, but will go deep into their hearts and they'll forever speak of this day and rejoice!"

Shorten replied, "I seriously doubt that! With one little wave of your hand?....Show me!"


• So the Pope backhanded him and knocked him off the stage!

AND THE CROWD ROARED & CHEERED WILDLY and there was happiness throughout the land!

If anyone is still unconvinced that there is not much difference between Liberal and Labor (let's stop pretending that the Nationals in the Coalition are of any consequence) they need look no further than Morrison's (blame him personally; he is the one doing the Presidential impersonation) socialism in the housing business to 'help people get a roof over their heads’.

When Labor does socialism it's honest and expected: it's what they stand for; when a supposed right of centre party does it, it is dishonest, desperate vote buying. So socialistic that Labor has eagerly said that they will match Morrison’s nanny act. As one commentator noted, it is “quasi public housing”.

Who gives a stuff which bozo is PM after Saturday! They are both self-serving opportunists and pork barrelers.

Given that the difference in the climate tomfoolery between the two parties is only a matter of degree since the Liberals dropped all pretence of being principled in the vote-buying frenzy, here's a reminder list of all the terrible things that should have happened some time ago, according to the climate crooks,

The population bomb
Mass starvation
Resource exhaustion
Nuclear winter
Acid rain
Global cooling
The end of ice and snow
Disappearing islands and coastlines
Climate refugees – one failed case in NZ.

Add in the actually thriving polar bears and constant crap.

While anything Australia does in the way of unreliable energy and the Paris fraud won't make a jot of difference, we have a chance at this election to punish both parties for spending, and intending to spend, truckloads of our money on this rubbish.

Ttbn,

Is it my imagination or has there been a shift in the jargon over the years, from 'greenhouse effect' to 'global warming' to 'climate change' and now to 'pollution' ? Which is, of course, a serious issue - in my view, more serious than the 'climate change' of one-inch sea-level rise every ten years (while tides go up and down a metre or so twice a day), and (at least in Adelaide) a maximum of half-a-degree temperature rise in eighty years ?

What impact might a one-degree rise in temperature every 160 years have on the growing season in the Baltic, or across Canada or Asia-Europe ?

And if, these days, water is brought up by pumps in the Torres Strait islands, rather than by bucket, what impact might that have on land subsidence there ?

Just asking. I might get an answer one day.

Cheers

Joe

The Torres Strait islands thing Joe is simply population, using too much water. The fresh water is a shallow lens floating on sea water below. Use too much, & you get salt.

We did it in Bundaberg. They pumped the city supply fresh water bores near the coast too low, & got sea water intrusion. That was decades ago, & those bores are still salt.

http://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/clive-palmer-must-not-buy-his-way-into-parliament-20190513-p51mqt.html
Hasbeen the link reminds us some know nothing about voting
You toss a not all that funny joke in to the ring
Others know the LNP is in fact the biggest joke in Auatralian politics
Three partys in one small l v big l this time next we your team will have to confront that

Habeen,

A friend of a friend reported that the sea-level around Perth had risen by four inches in recent decades. My friend asked him where he lived. "Bunbury". "Has the sea-level risen around Bunbury ?" "Well, no."

Could it be because Perth depends on ground-water which is pumped up ? i.e. Perth is subject not to sea-level rise, but to land subsidence. Could well be.

Joe

And you accuse us of reading the gutter press Belly.

In fact Palmer should be your best friend. He is likely to damage the LNP more than Labor, & I recently learned he helped the rat Turnbull get a carbon tax through the upper house, just before Turnbull was despatched.

No, Joe. It is not your imagination; they simply change the script as each of their wild claims is disproven. And a university in New Zealand (a country not known for conservatism and right wing views) has proved that the islands in the Pacific are not disappearing below the waves as the frightbats tell us. In fact, at least one has actually grown.

//I (Hasbeen) recently learned he (Palmer) helped the rat Turnbull get a carbon tax through the upper house, just before Turnbull was despatched.

Hassy Palmer was an MP until July 2016, Turnbull was replaced as PM August 2018, two years later. How can you say "just before Turnbull was dispatched". Where did you learn the from, the fairies at the bottom of your garden!

Cost wise, the Liberal lunacy on unreliable energy is more than just a little less silly than Labor's. Still silly, though.

Labor's great plan for for 50% unreliables by 2030 will cripple the economy to the tune of of $472 billion, while the Liberals will set us back 'only’ $69 billion for around 26%. Has anyone asked why half the effort doesn't carry half the cost, I wonder. Perhaps because it's all bullshite, and the moon is made of green cheese.

Neither will make an iota of difference to the climate, but Labor's pointless grandstanding will cost $400 billion more than the Liberal's pathetic attempt at 'me too’. A couple of years ago, Australia's GDP was under $2 trillion. Where is the money coming from? Or, more to the point, who is the money coming from?

ttbn, are you channelling Mr One Percent, Corny Banana, I can't see where else you could be getting your nonsense from. BTW, how is old Corny's election campaign going? You being a member and all, being on that extreme, you should know.

Even news corp [found myself there only for research tells us Morrison, by plan, is doing the campaign himself
Just as well, the bits we see from others are at best, not helping

And if, these days, water is brought up by pumps in the Torres Strait islands, rather than by bucket, what impact might that have on land subsidence there ?
Loudmouth,
Where on Earth did you get that information ??
It's 95 % desalination ! Diesel generators driving high pressure pumps. There never were buckets !
Who have you been listening too ??

Indy, maybe he got it from that conservative politician who believes all gays are going to burn in hell. Hell is sure a crowded place, the religious fundos have all sorts of minorities burning, but only for a short while.... like eternity.

News is Wentworth may not be lost, well the news is from Liberals,
But they point to lost booth manning folk returning this time
So it may be true, my side did not turn up [me too] in the darkness of Labour's lost election post rats in the ranks
Saturday night will be interesting for every one
We can only hope some thing is learned , the lost candidates on both sides points to much needed change
IF the two main sides want to get bigger slice of the first preference votes they must stop using the Hanson/Palmer method of candidate selection

Hell is sure a crowded place,
Paul1405,
It'll be even more crowded once all the Lefties roll up. Hell, Lucifer may need to abandon renewables & resort back to brown coal to keep up the heat !

Indy, were you handing out pamphlets for the 'Jehovah Witnesses' at that polling booth the other day? All with the catch phrase "Hell is only a vote away!" Come on, fess up!

What will the Senate achieve?

At the least, it will send dicky legislation back for more consideration.
It may even, by the committee process, embarrass the Government into doing something about being a good government.

Fear the day when either of the major parties controls both Houses.

Hi Individual,

I meant pre-contact: how did Islanders get fresh water before diesel generators ? Say, hundreds of years ago ?

Thanks for the serve, Paul :)

Cheers,

Joe

This ‘conversation’ has run out of puff, with the usual suspects getting sillier and sillier. Let's be happy we can still for drones, instead of this:

“Men in Iran have been ordered not to look at women during Ramadan as part of a round of draconian restrictions imposed by the increasingly isolated regime.

In a sign of frustration with growing civil discontent and economic pain caused by US sanctions, hardliners in Iran’s government are forcing through unusually strict social diktats to bring people into line.

The country’s judiciary has announced that those eating in public during the fasting period are also in breach of laws and will be prosecuted.

“My personal advice to women is to respect the hijab even more than before and gentlemen must avoid looking directly at female passersby,” Gholam- Hossein Esmaili, a judiciary spokesperson said.

“Anyone ignoring these instructions during the Ramadan will be committing an offence and should expect some punishment from the law enforcement units.”

Instead of the same old yabber, we need a Nigel Farange in Australia.

Farange's Brexit party has outpolled both the Tories and Labour. They spell Labour properly in the UK, unlike our semi-literate brand of socialists.

Brexit. 34%

Labour. 21%

Tories. 11%

We shouldn't be putting numbers against the names of any of our morons, but demanding a cleanout and a fresh start.

People in glass houses comes to mind
As we near judgment day it is still the most important subject we can talk about
Not over till it's over the refugee boat should be nearby waiting to out do children overboard
Scomo Has run a good race, no easy thing, holding his front bench down out of sight at the same time
ABC ,this day,*Labor figure says itis 54/46 for them in Victoria*
IF true that state will deliver the victory on its own

http://theconversation.com/in-australia-climate-policy-battles-are-endlessly-reheated-114971
You may not agree with this
But enough voters do
Enough to swing the elction
In fact ignore the swinging voter is not good policy

ttbn,

"...They spell Labour properly in the UK, unlike our semi-literate brand of socialists."

As a lover of English, I can't let that pass,

'Labor' is the English spelling enshrined, as are many other English words, in everyday American.

'Labour' is a French influenced word as was 'Doctour' in its day; fortunately, we have reverted to the English spelling of the latter.

The Australian Labor Party adopted the formal
name in 1908 - as The Australian Labour Party
but changed the name in 1912 to The Australian
Labor Party. The party was influenced by the
US Labor movement. American born - King O'Malley
influenced the spelling to have it changed and
"modernised." So there are historical reasons for
the spelling.

Then you could also argue that Australia is in
the Southern hemisphere so an great deal of
things appear "upside down" and a bit strange.

The name Liberal was chosen deliberately for its
association with 19th century progressive social equality
and services.

Perhaps that needs to be re-examined.

how did Islanders get fresh water before diesel generators ?
Loudmouth,
On some of the larger, continental islands rainwater lasted long enough to get them through. The smaller coral cays islands were fairly tough during the drier months. Giant clam halves were placed against trees so that the dew running down the trunk collected in the shells.
There was just sufficient drinkable water in that shallow lens you refer to. Then, as wells were introduced, windmills were used for a number of years until the lenses became depleted.
For the past 25 years, large 5-25 ML plastic lined/covered storage lagoons have been in use which for the past 15-18 years have been replenished by desalination. As housing & general living standards improved, water consumption has gone up 100 fold.
Much water is consumed by Govt staff both permanent & transient. Traditional PNG visitors are now being asked to cut the stays short because of water usage.

Foxy,

Australian English has always been the same as British English. You are right about the change, though, which says a lot about the union movement - so many Brit-hating Irish.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/murdoch-pulls-foxtel-out-of-the-financial-fire-20190514-p51n9u.html
IS MISE! not very bright that comment, years ago LABOR changed its name to LABOR
So Saturday night have no doubt, the incoming government can spell and its name is LABOR
Bazz talked about Fox/Sky I told him about what the link had to say so posted it to let him see
Selling rotten raw fish outside Macas at lunch time,seems not to be working out for them

Dear Individual,

«Traditional PNG visitors are now being asked to cut the stays short because of water usage.»

What a pity: had their water-bottles not been confiscated at the airports, they could bring their own water and stay longer!

Whom can we vote for to stop this madness?

Ps. The Liberal party has now moved so far to left that its name is now legitimate: it is a liberal party and is thought of as such by most foreign countries not familiar with our peculiar politics. I remember Arnold Schwarzenegger, when he was governor of California, telling John Howard that he was a lefty because he was leader of a party called the Liberal party. Howard's reaction was worth money to see!

Of course, when Robert Menzies started the party it was intended to be, and was, more liberal than he left behind.

I believe that our Liberal part is similar to the UK version, not quite as left as Labour. I also believe that we now need a strong conservative party for balance. I just don't think the leadership for it is available yet.

Is Mise,

Sorry, I missed your post. It might be "enshrined" in America, bit it is not in Australia. All Americans I've known do not know that there's a difference in the spelling of many words in American and Australian English. Now, of course, many Australians don't know about it either, thanks to American TV and publishers. No big deal, I suppose; I have a thing about it. I admit to having finally accepted 'program' for 'programme' and 'gram' for 'gramme'. That's my limit.

ttbn,

Thanks for explaining things further.

Well said.

Whom can we vote for to stop this madness?
Yuyutsu,
I give you one guess which party started the nonsense & now they're trying to get in again !

Yuyutsu,
It got to the stage where PNG visitors came in big numbers & stayed for months at a time. It simply became too much of a strain on resources when the community literally doubles in those times.
When the dry season hits the southern shores of PNG the drinkable water becomes extremely scarce there too.
Reality is rather different from just looking at Google Earth.

Dear Individual,

It seems that I need more clues:

Please tell me which party(s) have a policy of allowing us to take with us our own water bottles and home-squeezed carrot-juice on international flights.

As far as I can tell, both flanks of the Australian ruling party enforce the confiscation of our private liquids. What other explanation is there, but that both flanks collude with the manufacturers of bottled-water and soft drinks! They claim "terrorism" as their excuse, but they in fact are the biggest terrorists themselves. Both flanks even promised to install detectors in Australian international airports that can quickly and easily scan bottles of liquids for explosives, but when in power, none of them implemented what they promised. They never ever cared about the ordinary person: you probably treat the ants in your yard better than they treat you!

Check the dates of these promises:
http://www.traveller.com.au/new-scanners-at-australian-airports-may-let-you-keep-your-liquids-186e5
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/international-travellers-free-to-fly-with-liquids-at-last-under-new-security-plan-/news-story/0ec90dd4b4fae7e71535afb52ba7caa7

our own water bottles and home-squeezed carrot-juice on international flights.
Yuyutsu,
?? What's that got to do with PNG visitors to Torres Strait islands ??

ttbn,

" I admit to having finally accepted 'program' for 'programme' and 'gram' for 'gramme'. That's my limit."

Don't stop there, those are fine examples of the US using English and the English using French.

Luciferase,
Saying that it's class warfare to tax investment income at the same rate as employment income (which is a bigger change than Labor's prepared to make) is laughable - if you regard equality as class warfare, then by any reasonable standards, you're probably trying to wage class warfare on the rest of us! And nobody's suggesting abolishing negative gearing - but the government's plan of no new negative gearing for existing properties is a good idea, as it encourages more building, and will (slightly) slow the growth (trend) of house prices, making it easier for people to buy their own home, which is good for social cohesion.

As for rhetoric, Shorten has a point - the rich are getting a lot of tax breaks. But his rhetoric is pretty tame compared to the farcical claims the Libs are making about Labor's policies.

In Whitlam's day, university almost guaranteed high paying employment. Now with many more people going there, this is no longer the case. A high proportion of people going to uni is of great benefit to the national economy, but the current system is not so good for those who have to pay back their HECS fees at the time they can least afford to. The problem could be alleviated by raising the repayment threshold, but the government has failed to do this.

Similarly with childcare, governments have realised that the nation's more productive when parents don't have to spend so long out of the workforce, and overseas experience shows early childhood education to be quite valuable in boosting future productivity.

I'd rather our nation not be one where only the rich deserve a high standard of living. Everyone should thrive, not just survive. Likewise, people should not be forced by economic circumstances to move far away from their families. Many people will move far, of course, but they should have the opportunity to live in the same vicinity (not a house in the same suburb, but at least a flat in the same LGA).

Luciferase,
Yes the battery stops the blackouts.

To say it's nothing to do with the fleet of diesel generators is incorrect, as they do add capacity (each one having a similar output to the sustained output of the battery.
But usually in the case of supply driven blackouts, the problem isn' that we don't have the capacity; it's that it takes time for gas fired power stations to reach that capacity.

>The problem is emissions and what to do about them.
Exactly. We need to reduce them quickly, and ultimately get our net emissions below zero.

Completely decarbonising our electricity sector is neither the problem nor the solution. But electricity sector decarbonisation is among the low hanging fruit. Going to 50% is very easy - you don't even need batteries (though they do make it a bit easier and cheaper). Even going to 90% is unlikely to be very difficult. The last 10% is much harder (though not impossible) with current technology, but it is silly to assume that technology will stop improving, and utterly stupid to treat the final 10% as a way of avoiding action now.

>What qualifies as a solution is one that is proven, not one based on supposition, hope and fantasy.
What qualifies as a solution is one that solves the problem. Though you keep claiming nuclear power to be a cost effective solution, the cheap nuclear power plants that were promised are not even there yet, let alone cost effective. Meanwhile the cost of renewables (and of batteries) has come down enormously. Maybe small scale nuclear power will be cost competitive with them someday, but right now it isn't.

________________________________________________________________________________

individual,
What makes you think that "those who are vehemently bleating green power are the biggest users of coal & petroleum"?

Dear Individual,

«?? What's that got to do with PNG visitors to Torres Strait islands ??»

Practically nothing, but then how is the topic of PNG visitors to Torres Strait islands connected to this thread about the Australian elections? So I just took the liberty (in my post from Wednesday, 15 May 2019 3:57:56 PM) to continue this random train of associations and bring it back closer to the original discussion.

What makes you think
Aidan,
I see them & their behaviour on a daily basis !
Btw. Talking with an Aboriginal Elder yesterday about the politics in the North, he said he'll vote Katter Party because they are the only ones who openly support a crocodile cull !
Problem crocodiles have become a serious issue which the do-gooders simply don't understand ! How can one disagree with that. Same with Labor's grog restrictions on Cape York. By not getting grog in their community, many now gravitate towards Cairns & Townsville. Not because they can't get enough grog but because the moment they have an extra bottle in their possession they become criminals !
What Labor has in effect achieved is a conveyor belt-like creation of criminals to choke up northern prisons with criminals whose crime was to save a second trip to the bottle shop !
People going camping on weekends can only have one carton of beer per car. Talk about solving one problem by creating two more !

Yuyutsu,
Are you aware that Australia is giving 1.5 million Dollars/day to PNG since they became "independent" in 1975 thank to a lot of input from that Goaf !
Yes, it was a Labor Govt that created the border issues that involved traditional visiting by PNG people to Torres Strait Islands. I have seen it with my own eyes when dinghy loads went straight past the Australian Customs vessel & some people jumped straight onto the direct flight to Cairns. This has been curbed somewhat in the past few years since direct flights to Cairns are rare now. But, that still enables some to fly via Horn Island.

Two days away and even this morning an internal war is taking the wind out of scomos sails
Barnaby, [he will not win back the leadership] warns of an end to? the coalition
Not ever going to understand why some, on both sides, let blind rage turn them into an asset for the other side during a campaign
But it happens
Paul booth captain this one, voted already and you got my preferences
That will upset most here but vote with intent not with bias,it is best outcome rather than the lost right has on offer

Hi Belly, I had the daughter-in-law asking me about the 5% deposit scheme. I explained to her that there are a few things she needed to know. Firstly there is no free 15% money, on a $600K house with $30k deposit and a $570k mortgage (as opposed to a $480k mortgage when you have the full 20% or $120k deposit). Over 20 years the repayments are going to be about $400/month higher at the 5% deposit, probably more as the interest rate will be 0.2 or 0.3% high, due to greater risk for the lender, and no flexibility on interest rate for the buyer. Increase in interest rates over time, will impact more on the higher mortgage, buyer equity should the need to sell arise is a problem. Plus they are only offering 10,000 such guarantees when there are so many in this deposit/affordability first home buyer dilemma. My advice keep saving.

My advice keep saving.
Paul1405,
I'm thinking even further & my advise is to live within your means !

Dear Individual,

Thank you for the information, I was not aware of it.

As I understand, Australia is giving money to PNG and other islands in order to prevent them from selling off to China instead, so this is essentially a defence measure to keep the Chinese navy as far as possible from our shores. How effective this is I am not sure - I think that the most effective way to defend Australia and its long shores from Chinese invasion is to develop our own nuclear and biological weapons.

If the Chinese wanted to invade Australia all they'd need to do is send shiploads of people, we'd then go poor feeding and housing them and would have to ask for aid to continue to do so.

Aid would only be forthcoming from China.

End of story.

Just remember, put the GREENS LAST.

Australia is incapable of defending itself from China or any other country, thanks to inadequate spending on defence, and the ridiculous purchase of some totally unproven (because it doesn't exist) bitzer submarines that might be all in service in 50 years. The PC feminisation of the defence force is also a handicap. And, the insulting of America and sneering at Donald Trump by our political idiots doesn't encourage help from that quarter.

Then there is Clive Palmer's graphic ads about the West Australian government's facilitation of Chinese airports in that state. The WA premier says the claims are untrue, but arrogantly assumes he doesn't have to prove they are not true. If they are untrue, why has legal action against Palmer not been taken? Possible answer: it is true that China is coming and going in WA, via their own airstrips.

Paul,

And save paying rent for that much longer: saving for a deposit AND paying rent in the meantime would surely add more than $ 400/month. In other words, what one saves in rent can go towards the mortgage repayments that much more.

Taking your figure of $600,000, and a 5 % leg-up of $ 30,000: that's around half a year's pay for many people ? Even at 5 %, trying to save that much AND pay rent all the while stretches out to quite a few years of hardship, which would be shortened if one didn't have to also pay rent. So it all helps.

And another thing: after, say, twenty years, given inflation rates, mortgage payments of $ 400 payments would be chicken feed - most mortgagees would have upped their monthly payments and be able to pay off their mortgage sooner.

And the sooner they can get that deposit, the sooner they can reach that happy stage. Jesus, trying to save for a 20 % deposit must be a nightmare. $ 120,000 ?! Two years' pay, saved ? While paying rent ? For how long ? Ten or fifteen years ? Which probably hit just when the kids are demanding more and marriages are coming under strain ?

Anything helps when it comes to a mortgage deposit. I hope Shorten borrows that policy.

Cheers,

Joe

Clive Palmer is a joke, he made the claim China has two airports
Like most things he has said, it is not true

Dear Belly,

Nick Dyrenfurth writing for The Monthly recently,
tells us that Bill Shorten has long been under-
estimated. He wouldn't make it as a unionist, they
said. Yet at the age of 31 he became Victorian
Secretary of the Australian Worker's Union in 1998
and National Secretary 3 years later. He wouldn't
survive the cut and thrust of political life, they
said. Yet he won pre-selection and a seat in
Parliament, and he was a more than effective
Parliamentary Secretary and Minister during the
Rudd-Gillard years, spear-heading the creation of NDIS.

Against all odds, in 2013, Shorten won a ballot
against Anthony Albanese to lead the Federal Labor
Party. As Opposition Leader he saw off two Prime
Ministers - Tony Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull (where
are they today?). Bill Shorten has now been Labor
Leader for longer than Paul Keating, Kevid Rudd or
Julia Gillard.

In just a few days Bill Shorten might be Australia's
31st Prime Minister.

Yuyutsu,
>I think that the most effective way to defend Australia and its long shores from
>Chinese invasion is to develop our own nuclear and biological weapons.
I'm surprised you think so - I think it would have the reverse effect.
Developing our own nuclear weapons would show us to be untrustworthy as it would flout the nuclear non proliferation treaty which we've both signed and promoted. Developing biological weapons would be even worse, because it would flout international law.
And having WMDs would make us a target for a preemptive strike by countries that feel threatened by them.

China wouldn't even want to invade us, as it's only interested in territory that it has a historical claim to. Usually a tenuous claim, but it has no claim at all to Australia.

Developing the capability to kill millions of innocent people at a time is worse than doing nothing.

Dear Aidan,

OK, so what alternative(s) do you suggest?
Not reliance on America, I hope?

«China wouldn't even want to invade us, as it's only interested in territory that it has a historical claim to.»

Oh I see, you mean just Austria, Bohemia, Moravia, Alsace-Lorraine, Eupen-Malmedy, Memel, Lower Styria, Upper Carniola, Southern Carinthia, parts of Poland, the Netherlands, the Flemish part of Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland and the German-speaking parts of Switzerland and Liechtenstein?

«Developing the capability to kill millions of innocent people at a time is worse than doing nothing.»

Developing this capability is likely the best way to ensure that millions of innocent people are NOT killed. This is because nobody would then take the risk of invading Australia.

"Saying that it's class warfare to tax investment income at the same rate as employment income (which is a bigger change than Labor's prepared to make) is laughable"

I didn't say it. I explained the CGT change after it's fair inception that requires tax to be paid even when the investor has made a real (i.e. after indexing for inflation) loss, even though a nominal gain is made. I'm not arguing against the change itself, but against the fact that that the tax paid on the nominal gain behind the real loss is now to increase. This stifles investor capital risk-taking.

Abolition of NG without allowing operating losses to be carried forward against future profits will do the same, since taxes will be paid on a profit in the tax year it is made while a loss through any number of events (e.g. a bad tenant or no tenant) must be worn by the investor. This will ensure a good number of investors stay out of the established housing market, depressing prices there. They'll stay out of the new housing market too as they'll be selling into that established market in the future.

On the flip, if operating losses were to be able to be carried forward under Labor, which it hasn't said, its claim that the abolition of NG will fill its coffers is BS viewed long term.

"Even going to 90% is unlikely to be very difficult. The last 10% is much harder (though not impossible) with current technology"

Aidan, SA has already achieved 100% renewables generation at times, so you're there! The problem is it varies between that and nothing, meaning 100% fossil-fueled backup contingency is on standby and continuously running at high cost to justify its commercial existence. Storage would make this redundant, but that's where the whole thing collapses further into a screaming heap given the enormity of that fantasy to power a modern civilization.

Re Shorten's rhetoric, I not John Howard agrees with me about where this stands in history. http://tinyurl.com/y6kqo78e

Issy, a real problem putting the Shooters and Hooters Party anywhere, the clowns failed to nominate candidates on time. Bob Ballsup is a real balls up. These melon heads are a joke!

After missing the bus this time around Bob Ballup is believed to have said; "but we will gear up to make a strategic push at the next federal election in three years' time". Issy where is all the dosh from the NRA?

The shooters and Hooters have one solitary candidate, some bloke named Sam running in the seat of Claire, runs around all day in a
flak jacket, has no real policies, just wants the gig.

Shooters and fishers signs from state election still up here
Nailed to trees too
One broke every law and entered the no go zone putting his HTV at the very door
Soon made him bring them back
Not sure how they get away with leaving those posters up on National Highway?
Still finding barnaby's latest head shaking stuff
He seem to want the leadership back more than the election

Previous link paywalled
Try http://thewest.com.au/politics/federal-election-2019/federal-election-2019-former-prime-minister-john-howards-explosive-bill-shorten-spray-ng-b881198226z

If John Howard is so concerned about Bill Shorten
becoming PM why wasn't Howard at the Liberal Party
Campaign Launch in Melbourne supporting Morrison?

Or was he not invited - because he's so out of touch
that he's an embarrassment?

Yes Belly, Barnyard Joy is no longer content in backstabbing his cohorts, he's taken to all out war with the Liberal!

WARNING TO ALL VOTERS! Be careful when venturing outdoors to go to a polling booth. Under Scott Morrison's watch, two Rwandan men who had been charged with murder, were resettled in Australia following a request from the US government. Under the secret deal, reported by US outlet Politico today, Australia accepted Leonidas Bimenyimana and Gregoire Nyaminani, essentially as refugees, in November 2018. According to the Politico report, the two men had confessed to their involvement in the 1999 murder of eight tourists, four Britons, two Americans and two New Zealanders. This has not been denied by the Government.

By the time China gets organised to invade, Australian greed mongers will have sold it all to the Chinese, Grandmothers & kitchen sink included !
Had a bloke complaining at the polling booth today how the Chinese buy everything up here. When I asked him if he knew who sold it to them he just walked away.
Maybe I should hand out Penny Wong's number ?

Had another gem at the polling booth. A climate change warrior or so she thought. Complained about those dreadful multinationals who keep producing plastic. When I told her that consumers demand that food is wrapped in foil for hygiene sake & computers etc are made from oil too I got that familiar reaction of just walking off. I'm trying really hard to get an answer as to what they expect Govt to do about climate change at the same time as consumers incl. the Green ones, keep demanding oil products. Solar say many & when I tell them that all that green technology is based on oil just like the fuel in their cars & the air planes they travel on at an ever increasing frequency, they say Govt should do something. If Labor gets in will we finally get to find out what exactly that something Is ?

Well I just had a conversation with a caller from the Liberal candidate's office (marginal seat) and after a long conversation he essentially agreed that the party probably needed some timeout to regroup and to get rid of its toxic hard right.

His heart obviously wasn't in it.

Kind think this one might have gotten away.

A man who made Australia a better place. RIP Bob Hawke.

Bill sure is smart with his electric cars garbage.

A study directed by Christopher Buchal of the University of Cologne, recently published by Cesifo Institute in Munich, concludes that electric vehicles (EV) have “significantly higher CO2 emissions than diesel cars.” That is due to the large amount of energy used in the mining and processing of lithium, cobalt, and manganese, which are critical raw materials for the production of electric car batteries.

And some fools are going to vote for him.

Dear Belly and Paul,

Farewell to a much loved figure in Australia's politics.
Who will be greatly missed.

Robert James Lee Hawke
(Bob Hawke)
23rd Prime Minister of Australia.
Died at his home - 16th May 2019.
Age - 89.

Eternal rest grant to him, O Lord
And let perpetual light shine on him
May he Rest in Peace
Amen

A huge figure in anyone's politics.