Dear Foxy,

Do you mean that slavery expanded with imperialism ? Not necessarily - the Imperialist Age proper is supposed to have followed the Treaty of Berlin in 1884, after which the imperialist powers carved up much of Africa and Asia.

But slavery had been officially abolished in British territories, at least, well before then. Of course, there were still slave markets across north Africa, and there are still slaves in countries like Mauretania, especially girls (see tonight's TV program on SBS which touches on this). Even serfdom had been abolished in Russia around 1860.

So, as Marx would point out, slavery may have accompanied early capitalism but is not essential to the development of modern capitalism. Of course, even though Governor Philip declared that there never would be slavery in Australia, Pacific Islanders were treated as little better than slaves between the 1850s and 1901.

But to reiterate, slavery was common pretty much everywhere - the Incas, the Aztecs, everywhere in the ancient world, in the Muslim world of course, central Asia, India, China - until very recently. Debt slavery is still common in India.

But let's talk about nothing but nasty slavery only in Europe if that helps :) Nasty ancient Greeks ! Nasty Romans ! Boo !

Joe

Dear Loudmouth,

1884 you say?

Well a year after this started;

“In the period from 1885 to 1908, many well-documented atrocities were perpetrated in the Congo Free State(today the Democratic Republic of the Congo) which, at the time, was a colony under the personal rule of King Leopold II of the Belgians. These atrocities were particularly associated with the labour policies used to collect natural rubber for export. Together with epidemic disease, famine, and a falling birth rate caused by these disruptions, the atrocities contributed to a sharp decline in the Congolese population. The magnitude of the population fall over the period is disputed, but it is thought to be between one and fifteen million.”

And this was the price the children paid for not producing enough rubber;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free_State#/media/File:MutilatedChildrenFromCongo.jpg

And slavery was practiced far more widely in the countries that were the 'cradle of Western civilisation' than within the Persian empire at the time.

In fact the slave ratios in Sparta appear to have eclipsed most other countries/civilisations until the imperial period.

If you want to make the case there were worse instances than places like the Belgian Congo in more modern times then be my guest, but until then how about parking the victimhood, it is rather unbecoming.

Dear Joe,

I was referring to the establishment of European colonies in the
New World during the 1500's which brought an expansion of
slavery.

Today, few nations legally allow slavery. But slavery does
continue in areas of Africa, Asia, and South America.
No one knows exactly how many people still live in slavery. Most of these
slaves are blacks and Indians who were captured in local conflicts
or were sold to satisfy debts. Slavery remains a strongly accepted
custom among the people who practice it. Therefore, some
governments may not want to stop slavery, and other governments may be unable to end it even if they wished to do so.

"That has been exactly my point. The elbow room for such highminded fare came from the idleness of an elite whose rarified existence came from the exploitation of a vast numbers of slaves"

That's just laughably wrong. Where did you do your research? Watching reruns of Spartacus? While its true that there were some such people at the height of Rome's wealth. No such practice occurred in Athens.

Slaves in Athens were in relatively small numbers per household and were treated like members of the family. No one kept sufficient numbers to live the layabout life. Even wealthy businessmen like Cleon were teased about having clothing and hands affected by the tanning process which was their trade.

Slaves were used as tutors and the like. Some were used by the state in a sort of police role. Some were used as enforcers in the agora. Most worked in the fields with their master.

Herodotus mention the story of 300 slaves (confirmed by Plutarch in Miltiades ?) Who were given their freedom after fighting at Marathon. All went back to work at their erstwhile owners farm.

The notion of the great thinkers of Athens living in luxury at the expense of slaves is so ahistoric as to be laughable. Aeschylus worked on a vineyard until old age and fame allowed him to travel as a writer for hire. He also fought at all 3 major battles in the Persian Wars famously loosing a brother a Marathon.

Socrates was honoured as a war hero for his efforts at Delium where he saved many lives including that of Alkibiades and earned a living in later life as an educator. Aristophanes did at least two campaigns as a rower in the navy. And so on

You can't understand this by flicking through Wikipedia. If you're truly interested in the truth,rather than trying to score childish points, read Herodotus, Thucydides and Xenophon at a minimum and then some of Plutarch's lives for the period

"When I think of Ancient Greece images of the Golden Age
and the way Greek culture has influenced Western
Civilisation come to mind."

Yes Foxy

And that's the point here. Even if what SR says about slavery were true (its not but that's just SR being SR) the fact remains the what happened in 5th century Athens created the western world. All the things you mention in your post and so much more that became cherished by and indicative of The West started here.

And it could have all been aborted at birth had those Hellenes not decided that their freedom and independence were worth fighting and dying for. And that's worth studying. Hence the links above

Dear mhaze,

What is interesting about this discussion is
I suppose as in any discussion - our own
take on things.

We might have objections to the
practice of slavery, Ancient Greek society did
not seem to share our concern against human
exploitation. Slavery was not only accepted as a
normal institution, but there were also a number
of justifications for it. As Aristotle wrote
some people were simply born to be slaves, while
others were born to rule slaves.

Slavery was so central to a society where individual
freedom was so highly valued. Perhaps that's
difficult to understand. This is one of the many
paradoxes of Ancient Greece. Or maybe it is a
reflection of the fact that we can only value things
based on a contrast. Perhaps it was because of the
fundamental role of slavery that Ancient Greeks came to
value individual freedom so much.

We cannot deny that the presence of slavery was a daily
fact. Slaves did most of the work in the great
empires of Greece and Rome. Many laboured in
handicraft industries, in mines, or on plantations.
Others worked as household servants. During the
400's B.C. slaves may have made up a third of the
population of Athens.

Most people of the ancient world regarded slavery as
a natural condition of life that could befall anyone at
any time. The treatment of slaves varied greatly. In
ancient Greece and the Roman Empire, slaves who worked
in large gangs in mines or on plantations, served long
hours and suffered harsh punishment. However, many who
worked as house-hold servants were treated as well as
any member of the owner's family.

A slave's chief hope was "manumission" (formal release
from slavery by the owner) Most ancient societies
allowed manumission and many owners guaranteed it -
in their will as a reward for loyal service.

This information was taken from the "World
Book Encyclopedia."

Thank You for giving us this discussion. I certainly
learned a great deal from it. It was fun going back
in time.