I am a citizen of the US and Australia and, as such, have the privilege of voting in elections of both countries.

The USA has elected Donald Trump as president. Donald Trump was a shonky real estate dealer who stiffed contractors and fought unions. As president he has removed the country from the Paris Agreement dealing with greenhouse gas emissions mitigation, adaptation, and finance starting in the year 2020, removed the US from the Iran nuclear deal, tried and failed to repeal Obamacare, rolled back Obama’s regulations dealing with pollution and climate change, encouraged white supremacists, budgeted more for an already bloated military while cutting funds for scientific research, domestic welfare and diplomacy. He is in the pocket of the NRA which has tried to water down the John Howard gun controls in Australia while opposing gun controls in the US. He has little regard for the separation of church and state which, in my opinion, has been a prime factor in American greatness. He is an admirer of authoritarian leaders such as Putin and Duterte while alienating the democratic European nations which have been allies of the US. He does not respect the US Constitution which has given the House of Representatives the power to determine funding and has issued an emergency to get around that restriction. He has appointed such corrupt individuals as Scott Pruitt to office.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/20/17031772/mueller-indictments-grand-jury lists the 37 Mueller indictments and plea deals. 6 of them were close associates of Trump.

In my opinion he is the worst president the US has ever had. It indicates to me that a sizable body of US voters are poorly educated, prejudiced and easily swayed by demagoguery.

davidf,
Trump is a direct result of the Left's ignoring of the masses !

David F- You have made some interesting points here. Respectfully though I disagree with your most of your conclusions and your final one. I will try and get back with reasons later given time.

david f,

"He is in the pocket of the NRA which has tried to water down the John Howard gun controls in Australia while opposing gun controls in the US."

If the rest of your OP is based on the same thorough research as the above then I don't believe a word of it, I guess that you get your 'facts' from the ABC (the Australian one).

oh dear, Trump Derangement Syndrome is strong in this one.

he has removed the country from the Paris Agreement....good
removed the US from the Iran nuclear deal.....good
tried and failed to repeal Obamacare,....failed? Individual mandate gone plus this http://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/25/trump-obamacare-justice-department-1236116

rolled back Obama’s regulations dealing with pollution and climate change....good

He is in the pocket of the NRA....evidence?
has issued an emergency to get around that restriction....actually he issued a Executive Order. Does accuracy matter when in full TDS mode?

lists the 37 Mueller indictments and plea deals. 6 of them were close associates of Trump.....and not a single indictment for collusion!!

a sizable body of US voters are poorly educated....well obviously anyone with doesn't agree with david f is uneducated. No further evidence required.

BTW how educated were all those people who fell for the collusion story?

Dear David F.,

Thank You for starting this discussion.

You're brave to do so on this forum.
The attacks will be sustained and horrendous.

However, I know that you will be more than a
match for those that will try to tear you down.

The closure of the special counsel's probe does not mark
the end of legal woes for Mr Trump and people close
to him.

Other investigations and litigation are
focusing on issues including his business and financial
dealings, personal conduct, charitable foundation and
inaugural committee. Charges have been brought against
34 people - including Russian agents and former key
allies of Mr Trump such as campaign chairman Paul
Manafort, former national security adviser Mike Flynn and
Trump's personal lawyer Michael Cohen.

The Mueller report clearly and explicitly did not exonerate
Mr Trump.

Having lived and worked in the US for close to ten years
I'm only too familiar with the Trump persona,
and his reputation as a fraudster, liar,
narcissist who's petulant, and a blatant bigot.
Who believes that any publicity is good publicity
and who doesn't care what other people think.
It's hard to argue with someone who does not listen
or take advice and will deny any and all accusations.

He just may find out that this doesn't always work.
We shall have to wait and see.

Hear, Hear, david f!

What a sad, confused, increasingly-elitist and increasingly-disenchanted world we live in, where the likes of the 'chameleon' continues to be able to fool so many to such a degree in so many ways.

He personifies self-interest and personal aggrandizement, but under the cloak of 'saviour' of the common man. All-while gathering about him like-minded sycophants to better perpetuate his delusional mockery.

Hopes for world peace, tolerance and 'inclusiveness' (and Inheritance of the Earth by the meek and the peace-makers) recede increasingly into oblivion, under the manipulating ill-tutored and Mal-intention-ed stewardship of an ever-increasing swathe of tyrants and demagogues.

David you will no doubt notice, some disagree, not me however
It refreshing to see such a post here, too to know, without doubt, that over use of the term left, weakens the pro Trump case
He alone made it a term to insult all opponents
Sorry but my view of America has changed
Because so many, blindly, not unlike Hitler's followers, have fallen for his lies frauds and pure hate
His fall is assured, if it is shamefull enought, his supporters here will find ways to tell us they never supported him

Dear Saltpetre,

Welcome back.

It's good to have you posting again.

Are you a member of the swamp people david f, feeling worried as the water gets shallower, or just a lefty useful idiot, who likes getting ripped off, or doesn't even notice.

Great answer mhaze.

Do you live in a high rise Canem Malum? Your answer indicates little experience with stock.

If you are going to have chickens & goats, you are going to need a lot of strong fencing wire & posts, if you want to have a garden as well.

I think watching reruns of "The Bush Tucker Man" might become necessary in this scenario.

Hi there DAVID F & SALTPETRE...

DAVID F - It's great to hear from you again. In my opinion, you're one of the most erudite contributors on the Forum. Many of the issues you raise, I disagree with you. That's not to say I'm sufficiently skilled to dismantle your arguments because I'm not. :-) Anyway, welcome back DAVID F.

Hi, there SALTPETRE... I've not seen your epithet before - so welcome to the Forum!

You quote inter alia, '...(and inheritance of the earth by the meek and the peace-makers) recede increasingly into the oblivion...'? My friend, there'll never be world peace other than what is enforced by the strongest Nation(s). Any hope of the meek or the peacemakers (the UN) providing sufficient influence to allow the meek & peacemakers, to run the world, gives many folk hope.

Unfortunately, something else comes along and derails the entire process. Perhaps I'm wrong. But I'm not. Regrettably, there'll be more Port Arthur's, & Christchurch carnage, irrespective of how skilled and adroit police are interdicting terrorism. Removal of F/A's won't deter these criminals; they'll resort to M/V's, IED's, noxious chemicals, or poisons...the list is endless.

Those who seek to criticize TRUMP voters, as being nothing more than uneducated sycophants. I believe it to be the height of academic arrogance. Primarily as it's been perpetuated in many Universities & by the 'news hacks' in the media?

I know very little about Mr. TRUMP, but as a Republican, (a conservative), on face value, his ideology or tenets are similar to mine, (without knowing the specifics of his policies of course). Allegations of corrupt behaviour during the US Election campaign? Well, let those who 'accuse, prove,' the basis of our common law! The US has the same system of jurisprudence, that exists for the British, us in Australia, and many other countries around the world.

I am a citizen of Australia and I have no doubt that Trump is the best leader I have seen in my life. He refused to fund the gw criminals, did the right thing by Israel and exposed the lying liberal media which has shielded the very corrupt democrats for a long time. Trump has at least slowed the sale of murdered baby parts by planned parenthood, done more to get black Americans into work than any other president and has drained a very small part of the swamp. Trump has exposed his opponents as being very dishonest using fake news, fake collusion, fake race crimes, fake rape allegations etc etc. One could go on and on but its so refreshing to see a man puttingb his country first unlike the globalist who hate the west and the natural family.

It's nothing more than the hangers-on getting jittery that their Gravy train is slowing down. They're as per usual resorting to everything that falls into the category of dirty tactics to divert attention from their own hypocritical & opportunistic agenda.
I wonder who it is in their ranks that's going to be in so much strife that they need to put up smoke screens again !

One of the legacies of Trump will be that he taught the Republicans in the US and conservatives throughout the democratic world how to fight.

Obama told his followers to bring a gun to a knife fight. Instead the Republicans bought a copy of the constitution and got smashed. Additionally there were too many RINOs who mouthed conservatism but rolled over as soon as the faecal matter hit the cooling device. Paul Ryan spent years talking about overturning Obamacare but failed to go near it when he had the chance. Ditto immigration reform.

None of the other 16 Republican candidates in 2016 were made of the stuff that would have allowed them to stare down the MSM, DNC, FBI and the deep state to win the presidency. Only Trump could have done it.

And since then he's been showing them how to win a knife fight. No other Republican in the past 30 years would have stood by Kavanagh. They'd have caved. No other Republican would have withstood the attacks and outright lies from the MSM and deep state over Russiagate and come out a winner by fighting back.

So now we see people like Lindsay Graham and McConnell learning the lesson and fighting back. Even Rubio seems to have grown a pair.

Whatismore, this seems to have been exported, with the right in Europe learning to fight eg Brexit and the yellow vests.

Part of the reason that Trump enrages the left is that he doesn't surrender when they start using their normal attack strategies on him. Call them racist, sexist, Nazi and all the other ad hominems and most Republicans used to cave in and beg forgiveness. Trump laughs it off and punches back twice as hard (another thing Obama told his supporters to do). The Democrats and their supporters hate it and don't know how to combat it. So they just double-down.

Collusion failed. But instead of learning their lesson they just move on to the next piece of idiocy that they hope will overturn 2016....while still thinking of themselves as the party of the educated.

Dear mhaze,

The evidence for Trump being in the pocket of the NRA is in his own words.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/04/28/donald-trump-national-rifle-association-convention/101021848/

ATLANTA – President Trump spent the eve of his 100th day in office with some of his most fervent supporters, talking about two of his favorite topics: Gun rights and his surprise win of the November election.

"The eight-year assault on your Second Amendment freedoms has come to a crashing end," Trump told the annual National Rifle Association convention, part of a drumbeat of events designed to herald his 100th day in office on Saturday. "You have a true friend and champion in the White House."

I believe that Trump sometimes tells the truth, and the above may be one of those times.

I have neither cited collusion nor the Mueller report. The US education system is a mixed bag. My opinion that the more poorly educated voted for Trump is based on the fact that the states he won have in general worse school systems than the states he won. Oklahoma was a big Trump state, and my son lives there. Oklahoma has an extremely poor educational system and an ignorant population. Seth was attracted to Oklahoma because corporations there need to pay high salaries to attract executives. Housing is cheap, and Seth plays in a band with his boss. Unlike most people in Oklahoma Seth is living a good life.

Dear Individual,

I agree with you. Trump recognized the grievances of the masses. Slashing welfare and other social programs indicates that he is not going to do anything about their grievances, but he spoke to them more effectively than Clinton. Hillary, like Trump, is a creature of Wall Street as most people who rise in the US political system are. The trick to get the masses to vote you is to convince them that you are concerned with them. One way to do it is to convince them that you share their prejudices. I don't think that Trump himself is a prejudiced individual, but he is very good at exploiting prejudice.

Did warn you Davis f but think you can take it
A great showman once told us you can fool some of the people all of the time
That is confirmed here
Trump has history, long before the white house, and it shows him in a much clearer light
Time will see him taken down

Now let me get this straight david f. Your proof, such as it is, that Trump is in the pocket of the NRA is that he says they see things the same way and he will defend their rights while he has the power to do so.

Oh well, if that's the criteria, does that mean that Obama and EVERY Democrat candidate for 2020 is " in the pocket of" Planned Parenthood? Everything they do about abortion is only because they are owned?

Stand-by for gymnastics.

Now "Oklahoma has an extremely poor educational system" and voted Trump. Therefore says david f uneducated people supported Trump. Ranked by high school graduates Oklahoma outranks California which went massively to Hillary. Ranked by people with degrees Oklahoma outranks Nevada which went for Hillary. Perhaps you might like to rethink your Oklahoma anecdotes.

As to collusion, most of the people who fell for it were Hillary supporters who you claim are better educated than those deplorable Trumpites, who, might I point out, didn't fall for it. Might I suggest that rather than being educated, those Hillary were credentialed, which isn't nearly the same thing.

If the Democrats were as good as they still seem to think they are; if Clinton was a good as she still thinks she is, Donald Trump would not be president. Why doesn't that simple reason for Trump's election get through the thick skulls of Democrats and their supporters?

There is no point in rubbishing Trump. Clinton and the Democrats are just no damn good.

how dare the dreadful deplorables question the corrupt,lying liberal media and democrats who are experts in identity politics that divides a nation in everyway possible. personally I think the average member of the nra is miles ahead of the hollywood deviants who support the likes of Maxine Waters and Pochahontis who had to lie about her background in order to get plum jobs with academia. Thankfully the genie is out of the bottle and those accusing Trump of being nazi like have been exposed as the anti semitic bigits they really are.

Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 28 March 2019 11:43:04 AM

Do you live in a high rise Canem Malum? Your answer indicates little experience with stock.

If you are going to have chickens & goats, you are going to need a lot of strong fencing wire & posts, if you want to have a garden as well.

I think watching reruns of "The Bush Tucker Man" might become necessary in this scenario.

Answer- Thanks for your feedback Hasbeen- I understand that you have a good understanding of the subject matter. I have some understanding of chickens less about goats and I do appreciate that putting vegetables within eye-sight of goats is likely to make veggies mysteriously vanish. I enjoy building fences but I'm sure they aren't up to your high standards- I have a very useful "star dropper driver" (usually I buy 7' droppers at the ag store) that I keep around along with a 200 metre spool of barbed wire. At any rate if (as NathanJ prognosticated in his thread) the price of food underwent extreme inflation this it seems that the best option would be to learn how to grow my own food. Then I could benefit twice!

If you have any advise for a budding "prepper" I'm sure you are very knowledgeable. Generally I'm good with tools

david f,

""The eight-year assault on your Second Amendment freedoms has come to a crashing end," Trump told the annual National Rifle Association convention, part of a drumbeat of events designed to herald his 100th day in office on Saturday. "You have a true friend and champion in the White House."

So that puts him in the NRA's pocket. Ho! Hum!

The second amendment to the US Constitution states:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I have absolutely no objection to a member of a well regulated militia keeping and bearing arms. I see no reason why anybody else should keep and bear arms unless it is essential to their employment such as a policeman, soldier etc.

Canem Malum I had a neighbour who was pretty good in his veggie patch. He had a 6Ft high fence around it, but discovered his damn chooks could fly. He got rid of his chooks, amid much grumbling. Incidentally it is bird wire, not barbed wire you use to keep birds out.

Then the damn wood ducks discovered his veggie patch. He tried scare crows, even with moving arms, he tied his cattle dogs up either side of the patch. He had a kite thing looking like a hawk, but finally he had to build a wire netting roof over the thing. That sort of worked, but they still got in from time to time.

He grumbled loud & long about the stupidity of protecting destructive wild life like cockatoos & wood ducks, to no avail of course.

He finally down sized his garden to a 1m X 2m greenhouse thing, in which he grew much less, but did get to eat what he grew.

We gave up on almost all fruit & vegetables years ago. We are down to a Brazilian grape & a couple of Dragon fruit, both of which can be covered by netting & do not attract fruit fly.

An example (from National Geographic's latest edition) of the self-proclaimed 'saviour' of the Modern (ie Western Judaeo/Christian) World flexing his little finger:

"By Hannah Nordhaus

PUBLISHED March 21, 2019

Last week, the Trump administration rolled back protections for the embattled greater sage grouse, an iconic bird that has become a symbol of the struggle over how to balance extractive land use and preservation in the American West. The new plans allow more oil and gas leasing and drilling opportunities across nearly nine million acres of critical habitat.

Since the late 1990s, conservationists have pushed to list the greater sage grouse under the Endangered Species Act. An endangered listing, however, would bring severe limitations on grazing, energy development and other activities across 173 million acres of public, state and private land in the west.

To forestall that, the Obama administration in 2015 brokered a compromise plan to limit development and restore disturbed areas within “core” grouse habitat, while allowing more intensive development elsewhere.

The agreement won the support of a variety of industry and environmental stakeholders, but also spurred criticism and lawsuits. Some environmentalists argued that the protections were not strong enough; some industry groups and state and local governments called for the plan’s “draconian” restrictions on development in sage grouse habitat to be loosened.

The Trump administration heeded the latter calls.

The new plan reduces protections on over 51 million acres of “priority” habitat in seven states, making it easier for oil and gas companies to receive waivers, exceptions, and modifications to drilling rules. It eliminates from all but two states the most stringent protections, which tightly circumscribed mineral leasing and drilling in nearly nine million acres of the most sensitive grouse habitat."

So much for Democracy and the interests of environment and of the 'common man'.

Hasbeen- It used to be common to keep a veggie patch. Thanks for your amusing veggie patch story- I'll be sure to take it into account if NathanJ's inflationary scenario comes to pass. Have you any experience building glass houses- I get the impression one could be constructed from arched flat iron and Grunt Building Plastic with perhaps some of your birdwire for strength.

//Clinton and the Democrats are just no damn good.//

That is childish. I think Trump is a scoundrel whose main interest is his own power. He is also a very effective politician. However, that does not mean those who voted for him are bad or good or those who voted for Clinton are bad or good. We vote for what we think is the least bad alternative. Unfortunately many people see others as good or bad depending on whether others agree or disagree with them. We vote on the basis of what we think the issues are, whether we like or dislike the image the candidate projects [Unless we know a candidate personally we don’t really know that person. Even when we know a candidate personally that person may fool us.], our ethnic or religious background and many other reasons.

On olo I have read many views. I agree with some, disagree with some and think some are silly. However, I would call none of those who post good or bad. They are just putting forth their opinions.

I think the words of Solzhenitsyn are wise: “If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

'The new plan reduces protections on over 51 million acres of “priority” habitat in seven states, making it easier for oil and gas companies to receive waivers, exceptions, and modifications to drilling rules.'

well compare that Saltpetre to the absolute fools here in Australia that have fed the renewable thieves and locked up coalfields that should be providing our pensioners with reasonable priced heating and cooling. All for some failed gw narrative. Good to see Trump putting humans first.

Environment will always come after profit in America
After all that country is run by money for big money
Trump is a useful fool, pushing the wheelbarrow for those with both much more money and brains
At some point in future history the folly of ignoring the environment will be understood
That vegy garden Hasbeen, and the fruit trees, will soon be removed if people get truly hungry

I have never seen a post by runner which I can agree with. I think what he posts of his worldview is totally wrong.

However, he does a necessary job that I wouldn't want to do it. He has to oversee a lot of convicted criminals. They have been convicted of murder, robbery, rape and other offenses. He has to see them every working day. I respect runner and am grateful for the job he does.

I don't have to agree with runner, and he does not have to agree with me. Thank you, runner, for doing the job you do.

I think the reasoning behind the second amendment is that every level of the hierarchy of society needs to have the capability in the final calamity to defend against the level above if necessary.

Therefore the right to bear arms by individuals is necessary in this view.

I remember reading a Confucian scholar who said "The institutions of the community are critical for it's stability. These include the family, the local community, the king and the emperor." In other words the hierarchy of the community is important for stability. A corollary to this- if the institutions are malformed society will be malformed- or where there is chaos you will find bad institutions. Confucius also talks of relationships and the responsibilities of the members of the community. Also he believed that the family and it's relationships was the key elemental structure upon which society is constructed.

There are useful ideas in many places.

This has relevance/ relationship to the idea of hierarchy in the Second Amendment.

Prior to his election, Donald Trump expressed the feelings of many disillusioned Americans. Basically, those feelings were that government 'elites' were on the same side - they were in lockstep (in Australia think climate change, mass immigration, multiculturalism etc.to get that feeling). There was an oligarchy, or a "tyranny of experts". That's why Trump is as unpopular with Republicans as he is with Democrats. He has busted their born-to-rule assumptions.

Trumps is president because he has earned the right to be president. And he is keeping his promises unlike any politician anywhere at any time.

Dear Canem Malum,

I think your analysis of the Second Amendment is correct and was applicable to the eighteenth century when the amendment was adopted. I am of the opinion it is no longer applicable since modern weapons in the hands of individuals are a greater danger to society than they are a safeguard against oppression of one level of society by another.

When the Second Amendment was adopted there were no police forces in the USA, and it was up to the individual to protect oneself and family against marauders. In 1838, the city of Boston established the first American police force, followed by New York City in 1845, Albany, NY and Chicago in 1851, New Orleans and Cincinnati in 1853, Philadelphia in 1855, and Newark, NJ and Baltimore in 1857 (Harring 1983, Lundman 1980; Lynch 1984). By the 1880s all major U.S. cities had municipal police forces in place.

pretty good summary ttbn. He seems to be growing in popularity as the elite including Hollywood throw tantrums, tell lies and have much much egg on their face. Most of us had not even heard of Trump prior to 2016.

Dear David F,

On a number of points I respectfully disagree with your proposal that the right to bear arms is invalid contemporarily.

The police force is an institution of the sub-national (state) level of government and so is controlled by the State Government. Yes there are elements that manage that control- such as the Westminster Principle.

The question of whether a top down or bottom up approach to the power of deadly force is approapriate is a way of analyzing the validity of the power structure. Usually there is a combination of bottom up and top down approaches are used in abstract problem solving.

All levels of the hierarchy have the potential to abuse the power of deadly force also there will never be perfect safety and so there needs to be a balance. The main question then is where the balance should be and how should it be measured.

Individuals within society have views that are based on their perceived positions in the society. From your views I would assume that you believe you have the ability to influence the State Government but perhaps not the Federal Government. For this reason you perhaps wouldn't consider them a potential threat to you. Where as my views indicate that I perceive I have little or no influence over the government either at the Federal, State, or Local levels- this is why I advocate "Individual Power".

All Nations are a sum of the views at the different levels. It indicates the level of fragmentation or cohesion, etc.

There have been a number of comments in other threads by our esteemed members on individual firearm ownership and it's risks and benefits.

Alvin Toffler in Power Shift said that power is based on three components- Knowledge, Money, Deadly Force- looking at a number of case studies in ancient and contemporary periods I agree with his view.

I have come to the view over many case studies and studying great thinkers that Individual Deadly Force is necessary for a legitimate power structure- but I don't own a firearm myself.

I see the rising influence of feminine forces in the community as one of the influences opposing Individual Deadly Force. In the animal kingdom guarding the group is commonly a male task- perhaps there is something physical within us that has let to this asymmetry between the sexes. Perhaps the feminine psychology has an unwarranted underestimation of danger in their surrounding environment.

The nature of the mind contains many elements which are unknown. A relatively short time ago it was discovered that male and female brains are different due to testosterone in the womb. To me that means we need to trust the systems that have stood the test of time- but it sort of contradicts the concept of evidence based policy (so does the concept of democracy).

The concept of how power should be structured in communities has been going on for thousands of years by much better people than you or me and will be going on for thousands of years after this. We can drive the vehicle that is our community better but it's also important not to crash the car. I'm always suspicious of those that want to change the power structure that they only want to do it for self serving reasons. That's fine as long as they understand that people have a right to discuss the validity of the changes and despite the perceived rationality (or accusations of non rationality of the masses) the masses have the right to choose- whether in a democracy or not

I'll give you a weapon to beat me with- lets see how you use it.

You could argue that my approach is over philosophical (and I've only alluded to it) but this is my touchstone as many pragmatic approaches appear to have led to tyranny. The solutions that have been chosen for practicality in the short term have failed in the longer term.

Communities especially contemporary ones have complex relationships- in order to understand them sensitivity is required- in science and in engineering "to avoid runaway complexity often a simplifying principle is necessary". Engineers say "more parts more failures"

Dear Canem Malum,

You wrote: "The concept of how power should be structured in communities has been going on for thousands of years by much better people than you or me and will be going on for thousands of years after this."

The people who are discussing the nature of power may be much better than you or me, but the people who take power in my opinion are usually worse. In my opinion a desire for power means that one is unfit to hold it.

The America my generation loved unconditionally may never have existed
We, men too, cried at the death of Kennedy, he may have been the second last great leader Obama being the best post ww2
Trump is a symptom of America, a nation of great wealth, that ignores those living in that country who have nothing
Trump has given us a timely reminder, we must look to our own defense he has taken the trust out of his country

"Obama being the best post ww2 [president]"

Struth, its like Belly grew up in an alternate universe.

Hi there RUNNER...

I was casually reading through the various contributions on this topic, and I notice one from our illustrious Originator, of this Topic DAVID F. Where he speaks glowingly of you and your job? I must be thick, but are you in law-enforcement yourself RUNNER? Of course, if you are, it's nobody's business other than yours. But I've always perceived your views as being somewhat conservative, similar to mine? An ideology shared by most Police and Prison Officers I know. Thanks, mate, whether you choose to answer or not.

david f,

What makes you think that the Americans of the 2nd Amendment era did not know of rapid firing guns and, in fact, of fully automatic ones, capable of firing bursts of multiple shots?

Certainly, the drafters of the Constitution were well aware of them.

Is Mise,

You mean Gatling guns?

For those posting here. Can we please have a list of Trumps misdemeanours while in office?
1. Bigotry.
2. lies.
3. Misogyny.
4. Racism.
We hear all these words thrown around, but we need cited examples. Not from Democrats but from reliable sources.

Foxy,

Look the subject up, preferably before putting the foot in the mouth.

Is Mise,

I've already done that for you or have you
forgotten. Take off your blinkers
and think back to machine guns - and Zulus.

Dear Josephus,

You can Google all those subjects concerning Mr
Trump. The information is there on the web.
There's plenty of it. Here's just one example
concerning lies:

http://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/maryanngeorgantopoulos/president-trump-lie-list

o sung wu

I spent a number of years in law enforcement including time at Goulburn gaol as a screw. Strangely enough I cared little about politics for a long time and would not of known what a conservative or progressive was for years. I have the upmost respect for most police officers and others who have an increasingly difficult job to do. Obviously their are some bad apples but by and large most law enforcement officers in Australia are doing a difficult job to make Australia safe.

I really would not know if most law enforcement officers are conservative or not. Conservatives by and large seem to be far more rational and much more commonsense than progressives. Can't believe how dumbed down so many of our academics are. They certainly stick far more to a narrative than using reason and observation to reach conclusions. Certainly science and reason has been trashed.

I think next election I will vote one nation for the first time. I don't actually agree with all their policies and think the 2 guys speaking to the fake nra were fools. I do however detest the dishonest media. Imagine putting the same effort in exposing the perverted idiotic policies of the Greens as they have one nation. Morrison has lost me since putting Labour (that means also Greens) before one nation.

Dear Belly,

One of the great flaws in my country, the USA, is the extent to which it has been militarized.

www.truthmove.org/content/us-militarism

“The largest industry in the world is also the most destructive, and no country has a larger stake than the United States. Our military budget, arms sales, distribution, and subsidies dwarf those of every other nation. We make war.

The industrial motives behind our wars and the destruction of human lives, communities, and ecosystems that result, continue to be obscured by a mainstream media owned by those who profit from war. As a result the US public knows less about the wars we fight than people in other parts of the world. This must change if we are to avoid letting this country be run by those with little regard for its people or our democratic tradition.

Our National Security Strategy seeks to ensure the extension of US corporate influence and security through global military dominance. This is to be achieved with the development and use of satellite weapons, remote control of the battlefield, surveillance of all digital communication and transactions, and the next generation of nuclear weapons. The goal is “Full Spectrum Dominance,” or total awareness and control of the battlefield. And in our present “Global War on Terror,” the world has become our battlefield. The US is positioning itself as a unilateral and preemptive global strike force of unparalleled strength, advancing corporate interests while continuing to disregard international law and human rights.”

Kennedy was an ardent cold warrior expanding the military, and Obama did little to check militarism. Trump is far worse than either cutting domestic spending while increasing the military budget. Both Kennedy and Obama are romantic figures so their flaws are often overlooked.

continued

continued

Eisenhower pointed out the dangers of militarism

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/eisenhower001.asp

“Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense. We have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security alone more than the net income of all United States corporations.

Now this conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence—economic, political, even spiritual—is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet, we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources, and livelihood are all involved. So is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.”

The USA and the great Republican party which produced Lincoln and Eisenhower is now represented by a scoundrel president.

Foxy found a site that keeps track of all Trump's 'lies'.

In one instance Trump said he was in Scotland the day before the Brexit vote when in fact, according to the diarist, it was the day after.

Oh the shock..the horror. How did his presidency survive that whopper.

I wonder if the Trump derangement syndrome crowd would consider that lie on a par with "If you like the plan you have, you can keep it. If you like the doctor you have, you can keep your doctor, too." or "the Benghazi attack was a protest against a video" (let's ask Chris Stevens if he agrees with that...oh wait!) or the story about dodging snipers in Sarajevo?

Nah, those have all been flushed down the memory hole to protect the reputation of the "remarkably scandal-free administration".

BTW, do you know Austrians speak Austrian?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1diNthezRk

Hi there RUNNER...

That's interesting. Now I know you were a Prison Officer at Goulburn Gaol. It's a general view, held among most police members that Prison Officers face profoundly more hazardous duty, in their daily work role, than most coppers do in a month. Anyway, it's not a matter of 'occupational' comparison; I'm merely stating a fact. Thank you for telling me RUNNER.

I've only been to Goulburn a half dozen times, most of my connection with your former Department, was at the Bay, and then only with 'four wheels'? Later, as a detective I had many 'professional' visitations at both Long Bay & Parramatta, with people we wanted to interview, other than that, we didn't have too much interaction with the Officers employed there.

One funny incident, if I may. Do you know where the professional visiting boxes are, at Long Bay? Well, back in the day, we were interviewing this crook well known for his short fuse. All of a sudden, pursuant to our line of questioning, he suddenly got up, and ran screaming towards the caged 'Sally Port' at the front Gate, yelling loudly to the Officers inside, to shoot us, as he reckoned we're 'verballing' him, the silly poor bastard!

Runner, you'll not find too many coppers speaking ill of Prison Officers. It's quite the contrary. We, including myself, understand the menacing and treacherous duties our brother Officers perform, on a daily basis. Thus they all have our respect!

Back on topic though; When it comes to the various news 'hacks,' purporting to report faithfully, and honestly the events surrounding the activities of President Donald TRUMP, truth and honesty are perhaps the last things people wish? I'm nearly eighty years of age now, and I can't ever recall a US President, ever getting so much negative media, then Mr. TRUMP. Even Richard (call me 'Dick') NIXON at the height of Watergate, was treated more favorably than the incumbent? I reckon RUNNER; it's become a real 'Health Hazard' to be known as a 'conservative', what do you think my friend?

Ya gotta laugh. Trump it seems is far worse in terms of militarism than Kennedy (Vietnam) or Obama (Iraq, Libya Yemen etc etc) because...well just because.

Trump, the great militarist, hasn't started any new wars, is close to ending one (ISIS is about to become WASWAS), and is working to end Americas longest ever war. He's also pushing to get out of Syria and Afghanistan.

But he's the worst, dontcha know!

TDS strikes again.

Foxy,

The question was,
"What makes you think that the Americans of the 2nd Amendment era did not know of rapid firing guns and, in fact, of fully automatic ones, capable of firing bursts of multiple shots?"

If you can't answer it then inform yourself or stop wasting space.

Hi there DAVID F...

I gather you don't support any of the 'shooting' sports? Including the Olympics? I notice you don't object to members of a Militia from having arms. Is there any limitation to the weapons they are permitted to possess and use? Would those rights extend to farmers? Notwithstanding the above, should everyone else be denied access to a firearm, in your opinion DAVID F. and why?

Do you think Donald TRUMP has done anything commendable, since gaining the US Presidency? Do you think the overtures he's made to the North Korean Leader, Kim Jong-un has been just a stunt, or something much more meaningful? And the wall between Mexico and the United States, is it merely a folly, of a dangerously demented man, or something much more tangible, like the attempt at the interdiction of Drug Trafficking?

Davidf,

You want to talk 'childish'? I'll tell you what is really childish: people,including old men like you who should know better, still whining about an electoral disappointment two years after the event. Your lefty Democrats were definitely not good enough to win. Trump was. End of story. Act your age and get over it. You chose to leave the U.S, so it's none of your business anymore.

Saltpetre, you do jest surely. Can anyone really expect to lock up 9 million acres to protect some grouse, that doesn't appear to be good eating.

Canem Malum, I do have such a greenhouse. I used it for propagation, when I was supplying advanced shrubs to the Gold Coast landscaping industry. A 12M X 8M tunnel 5M high, it was covered in a glass reinforced translucent plastic material, over curved 32mm round pipe frame.

When I stopped that I recovered it with Hypalon fabric, fitted a full with door, & now keep my classic sports cars in it. That was 5 years ago, & I expect another 10 out of it. We used Hypalon for deck awnings on tourist boats & hoods on speed boats in the Whitsundays, where it would last up to 15 years.

The cost of the thing is about 16% of a tin shed the same size, & it is both cooler & cleaner than my sheds.

Is Mise,

For your information:

http://medium.com/@justin_lane/the-2nd-amendment-was-designed-for-muskets-187c3cf0453e

Foxy,

That bears out what I said, see what you can find when you try, well done.

Hi again o sung wu

Yeah no-one has ever been an enemy of the media like Trump. With the ability to get news from other sources the mainstream media has had egg all over their face for two years. They have been exposed for reporting a ton of fake news. Instead of taking a breath each time they have been wrong they have dug in deeper. Our own abc has been atrocious. Trump in my lifetime has been the only one to call out and expose the media for the bullies and deceitful people many if not most of them are. He also has had the courage to display the hypocrisy of the UN and treat the gw thieves with the contempt they deserve. He has reduced funding the murder and then sale of unborn babies by planned parenthood. He supports Israel rather than terrorist. These are all causes that the lying liberal media and academia champion. What he is like as an individual I have no idea but as a President he is head and shoulders above the last few.

Yeah no-one has ever been an enemy of the media like Trump.
runner,
other way round old fella !

Hasbeen- Thanks for the information. Sounds like I have a project to get started on. I'm surprised it's cooler than the metal shed given the radiation passing through the skin of the glasshouse. Hypalon appears to have interesting properties. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypalon In the past I've found engineered plastic sheeting interesting. Reinforcing Hypalon with glass must be an amazing product. Can I get it in small quantities- price?? I'm also a big fan of Frei Otto and his high strength tent structures.

Trump when he falls,will leave some asking how did they get it so wrong
A healthy thing, knowing we, not one of us, get it right all the time
Forget Russia, just focus on his mountain of lies
The in his own voice, sex tape
His refusal to table his tax records
America is not and may never be again, the leader of the free world, because Trump can not be trusted

Dear o sung wu,

I don’t support government aid to the Olympics in any sport. If people want to participate in the Olympics it should be up to them to raise the funds for it.

If one needs a gun because of their occupation they should have a gun. Farmers may need a gun to get rid of pests.

If one wishes to enjoy gun sports one can join a gun club where the guns are locked up when not in use. I have owned a gun and hunted. I lived in an area where people would shoot their deer out of season to provide food for the family. In season it was too dangerous to go in the woods because of all the dangerous city people with guns who would shoot at anything that moves.

In a nonviolent culture where people are less likely to go off their nut it is safe to allow general gun ownership with few restrictions. In Switzerland almost all males are reservists and have guns at home should they be called for service. Apparently the Swiss are nonviolent except in the defense of their country. Neither the United States nor Australia has such a culture.

The Swiss keep their guns locked up when not in use, have a thorough training in guns and gun safety and there are few or no occasions of mass shootings in Switzerland.

I think it was good that Trump talked to the leader of North Korea. Although I think Trump is bad in general I don’t think he is a racist. However, I think he will use the racist feelings of parts of the US population to appeal to them.

Since most drugs enter the US through legal entry ports construction of a wall is not justified to stop Drug trafficking. The way to eliminate Drug Trafficking is to legalize and control drugs as we legalize alcoholic consumption.

Trump is not demented. He is an unscrupulous, intelligent politician. He is deficient in knowledge of science and the humanities as are most.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/alex-jones-blames-conspiracy-claims-on-psychosis-20190330-p5196b.html
Worth reading, take the time and you will see modern America
Trump's America, the story could be about him
Conspiracy, even using the letter Q sends some Americans to fever pitch
And they are not sure why
Followers of Trump are fed not endless big macs, but endless conspiracies to keep them away from the truth

Canem Malum the Hypalon is normal Hypalon. It has a reinforcing thread woven into it, but it is not glass. It was the translucent material that had glass thread in it.

Belly your irrational hate of Trump is turning you into something resembling a rabid dog. Do try to regain your sanity.

David F you say "Farmers may need a gun to get rid of pests", but the way law enforcement is going, particularly parts of Melbourne & Sydney, with no go areas, & no arrest groups, little old ladies may shortly need a gun to get rid of pests too.

Dear Hasbeen,

I shudder at the thought of giving a gun to the dear 82 year old lady who is my wife. It would be a recipe for an accidental tragedy.

I wonder why more people don't feel about Trump like Belly.

Hasbeen it is clear we are free to insult one another here
You, in my view, mildly insult me, but in truth that post highlights you are not the man you once had been, maybe you are a Hasbeen
See I do not hate Trump, he disgusts me, I am bamboozled by how such as you can not see the real him
But hate? no
Is your answer to views other than your own to charge the person with silly things
'Must I hate Trump if I disagree with him,
Tell me who else I hate, need to know, have an inquiring mind
Not as you have a closed dark one
Do you understand? I do insult others, but in the end could do so more oftemn and much harder
It however is never worth the effort

"I wonder why more people don't feel about Trump like Belly."

Intelligence.

Dear David f.,

Most people that I know not only in Australia but
in the US, Germany, and the UK - all feel like
Belly - about Trump.

Hi there RUNNER & DAVID F...

I don't understand some of his ways, but when he says he'll do something he usually does. On the other hand, Mr. Barak OBAMA is probably the worst US President in my living memory. He certainly didn't seem to have the confidence, of his military people. That said, he did manage to locate and deal with BIN LADEN, which would've earned him a few 'Brownie Points' from his Military leaders.

As you say, Mr.TRUMP did manage to 'route-out' those far left 'news hacks' who've been forever peddling fake news, for so long now. And I should think Mr. TRUMP will be far more valued, after he's completed his second term. And the population can see just what it is, that he's done, that's been so beneficial, for the entire Nation. I have a mate, who's recently retired from the Bureau. He was the PFI for the entire West Coast. He and his colleagues won't stand a bar of anyone speaking derogatorily about Mr. TRUMP! So apparently even the FBI like him? Thanks RUNNER.

Hi DAVID F...

Thank you for your most comprehensive response to the questions I put to you, dealing with F/A's and the TRUMP Administration. Your thoughts and opinions are what I would expect from someone of your particular demographic. Though I would expect you'd opt for tighter gun laws, concerning their possession and use, however, you weren't all that bothered if someone had one and as long as they could legitimately justify their reasons?

Your various opinion's on Mr. Donald TRUMP wasn't as harsh as I expected. Your main criticism was, he's deficient in his knowledge of Science and the Humanities, as are most? Are both of those particular studies, vitally important, in order to make a good President? A lack of knowledge, of the Sciences and the Humanities? Useful perhaps, mandatory I wouldn't think so? Many thanks, DAVID F, I appreciate you answering my questions.

Mr Trumps'presidency has certainly caused a great
deal of controversy. The chaos of staff turnover,
two secretaries of state, two secretaries of defence,
two attorney-generals, three White House Chiefs of
Staff and a revolving door of senior West Wing aides.

The foreign policy by tweet. The chumminess with
adversarial authoritarian leaders such as Kin Jong-un
and Vladimir Putin. The blurring of ethical lines
supposedly the Trump White House from The Trump
business empire. The Russian collusion investigation
which has raised questions, so far not quite settled
about his true allegiance. And the list goes on.

Trump's administration has certainly been like no
other.

America needs Trump as the opposition has no equal leadership to match him.

Dear o sung wu,

I think it is extremely important that a national leader be knowledgeable in the science and humanities. We live in a world where we are the mercy of technology. Our military capacity, our communication, our economy, our health and our environment are all dependent on our technology. Trump thinks global warming is a hoax, and we can continue messing up the environment without suffering by it. Trump thinks by pouring vast amounts of money into the military he can maintain military superiority. In that he is a fool. 9/11 cost the terrorists very little. With box cutters and clever planning they cost the US a great deal. They were motivated by their religious belief.

As far as I am concerned religion is basically mumbojumbo with a gloss of mystery. A competent leader should know how it inspires people but should not be taken in by it. Trump has his base of support in people motivated by Protestant fundamentalism. Their vision of the world is no more sophisticated than the terrorists of 9/11. They do not appreciate the value of the separation of church and state put in the US Constitution by James Madison and Thomas Jefferson. I think that separation is a big reason for USA predominance. I don’t believe Trump is a fundie, but he was able to use fundies as the basis of his support. I think the damage they can do to the USA is greater than the damage done by the 9/11 terrorists.

To make decisions concerning the welfare of the people of a country one should be knowledgeable in philosophy and literature. Philosophy asks the big questions, and good literature throws a light on people’s behavior. They help make a person an effective thinker. A leader of a country should be primarily concerned with the welfare of the people and the defense of the country. To make the best decisions in both those areas a leader should be knowledgeable in science and the humanities. I believe that Trump’s deficiencies in those areas make him unfit to be president.

Is Mise,

I wonder why you might think that any ordinary citizen in Oz or NZ, or even in the U.S., ought be able to possess a self-loading centrefire rifle or machine gun as a matter of right?

Now, please don't try to tell me that Oz farmers ought be able to own such to protect them from all the nasty critters abounding, or to mow down all those nasty feral pigs or goats. These days there can be good money in such ferals - but they need to be rounded up, or at least bagged in accordance with appropriate butchering standards.

Target shooting? Personal protection? Give it a rest, please.

Surely not a trained civilian militia? Like those doing such a great job maintaining law and order in so many places OS? East Timor comes to mind, in times now fortunately passed, or Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, and so many other troubled near-lawless environs?

I have been a cattle farmer, and have been a shooter virtually all of my life - mostly target, fullbore, smallbore, pistol - and a little hunting (of late only of feral dogs), and have attained some dongs.
I've never felt the need for a semi-automatic of any kind, and alternatively have always endeavoured to apply absolute precision - including foregoing a shot if in any doubt of clean result.

White Supremacists seem to be the most vocal and determined on the need for ordinary folks (including many who are mentally disturbed, intellectually challenged or otherwise paranoid) to amass minor personal armories. Poor misguided (and dangerous) fools - in my view.

Trump appears to be in the pocket of the U.S. NRA (who appear absolutely in favour of a heavily armed civilian population).
Wow! Such a man! I wonder how much they contributed to his campaign, and are continuing to contribute - so long as he, Trump, continues to play ball?

Trump has tried to return thousands of long-term temporary visa holders to parts of strife torn Central America, but was stopped by the courts.
Such a man. He surely is larger than life? Phooey.

Saltpetre,

"I wonder why you might think that any ordinary citizen in Oz or NZ, or even in the U.S., ought be able to possess a self-loading centrefire rifle or machine gun as a matter of right?"

I share your wonder, I haven't owned a semi-auto centre fire for decades, and only had them then for study purposes, like you I'm all in favour of precision, that's why my favourite hunting rifle is a scoped, single shot, No1 Ruger in .220 Swift calibre.
For bunnies and hares, I use a single barrel 20gauge muzzle loading flintlock.

However as some self-loading rifles are slower to fire than some bolt action ones, then I see the ban on such as a bit unrealistic.

Blanket bans can be a bit silly; a learner driver in NSW cannot drive a Ford V8 of 60 horsepower but he/she can drive a 4 cylinder modern car of greater horsepower and almost twice the useable speed.

A Democrat has emailed me? to announce he/she intents to? impeach Trump
Now not sure why I get democratic emails, it can only be because of facebook, is that group letting my email address out
Rather think, unless some truly big news is coming, it will fail
Not as sure he can survive close looks into his legal position

Belly,

Maybe it's because the Democrats are becoming desperate.

is mise the greatest threat to America returning to good politics is some DEMOCRATS
Yes they could,pick the wrong candidate AGAIN
Did it before I hope not,but we are talking about a country that wants celebrities to run for the job!and elected Trump

People are fleeing Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador because conditions are so bad in those countries. Trump is punishing those countries for allowing people to leave for the US by cutting aid to those countries. Rather than building a wall to keep people out it would seem more sensible to help those countries become better places to live so people would not leave. Access the following for the item re cutting aid.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/trump-plans-us-aid-cut-to-3-central-american-countries-as-fight-widens-over-us-bound-migrants/2019/03/30/d6814b42-52ff-11e9-bdb7-44f948cc0605_story.html?utm_term=.b014abe576a3&wpisrc=nl_evening&wpmm=1

David F- I agree with this comment about making these countries better but good borders are also important. The US does invest as I understand a lot on creating stability in terms of aid, through the UN, etc. Sometimes these initiatives work well but often it takes many years to make any headway if any progress is made at all. Sometimes other channels are more effective than the political ones. Many problems are not solved by throwing money at them. Many problems in the third world are caused by a combination of high birth rates, low productivity, and low hygene- all of which are in many ways social pathologies. Maybe Trump should write a book on "how to manage a good town"- mostly taken from Army Camp Hygene/ Defense/ Rationing.

But for most capable people it's easier to cross the border to the US than to fix the problems in their own countries. People will usually- like water- follow the easiest path. Perhaps you would consider my advocacy of staying in El Salvador as somewhat obscene- but there it is.

America has been pumping aid down South for decades and it has mainly gone down south.

Dear Is Mise,

I agree with you. The money has to be wisely spent. much of the money sent to some countries goes into the pockets of the rulers.

Dear Canem Malum,

You mentioned high birthrates. That is indeed a problem, but it is not a problem that Trump recognizes. He does not want to support Planned Parenthood or other organizations that would reduce the birthrate. The fundies who are his base would object. Keep 'em barefoot and pregnant.

We could make up tasty food packets laced with contraceptives and aphrodisiacs. The air force could drop those packets in Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador and other countries. That might help.

"We could make up tasty food packets laced with contraceptives and aphrodisiacs."

What's the need for both?

Dear Is Mise,

If you're stoked with aphrodisiacs you don't want to leave the house.

Belly I guess you are too old to start now, but there are a few things you should have learnt in your time on earth.

Surely you should know that your rants about Trump, & denigrating anyone who voted for him, or approves of him, is insulting to all of them. You should expect to get as good as you give in return. You have no right to be upset when some of us return just a little of what you dish out.

Your continual pontificating about things political, as if you are the font of all knowledge, is just as grating. Someone who is proven wrong as often as they are right should be a little more humble. I welcome hearing your opinion, but do stop trying to act the expert dispensing your wisdom to us lower beings.

Your refusal to accept that some of us don't have a "side", simply because you are a rusted on useful idiot is also annoying.

I have no idea of who I will vote for at the next election. Shorten & current Labor policies terrify me for the future of my grand kids. Shorten is the cheapest tart ever to lead a party, & will blow in any direction he thinks offer a net gain in votes. He is certainly way below trump in ethics or honesty.

A truly disgusting excuse for a man, but I don't think all that much higher of the other bloke. Either he is a fool, or no better than shorten in trying to buy votes. Much as I despised Turnbull for the fool he is, at least he believed in what he was trying to do. I can't say the same for the other pair.

Be assured if I ever decide to become one eyed, you'll be the first to know.

Hi (again) DAVID F...

Thank you once more for your most comprehensive responses to my inquiries. I really do appreciate it. Most of which I can understand how you've arrived at your conclusions, however the remainder, not at all I'm afraid. Nevertheless, you've been quite forthright with your answers and that's all anyone can really ask of you. Thank you once again. Cheers...O Wung Wu.

Hasbeen you understand don't you, that quite a lot of your post do what you charge me with?
Now Trump do not be naive mate
Millions, even in his own country think just like I do about him
And please! my last post was self defense, it aimed at your side branding my side of the debate EXACTLY in the style you charged me with
YOU HAVE BEEN CONNED Trump will fall,he almost surely will face courts over his business dealings and crimes in office, once he no longer holds the job
We owe him this *he enforced the view relying on America PTY LTD for our defense is unwise*

Dear o sung wu,

We have different opinions but consider this. A person’s religion, political attitudes, country, occupation and other attributes that define them are most likely the same as that of their parents or family. Cops generally have a relation who is a cop. Professors generally have a relation who is a professor. We can’t determine who our parents are. We can’t determine much of anything, but we can be aware that our identity is largely a matter of chance. I honestly think Donald Trump is the worst president the United States has had and have given reasons for that opinion. Earlier this month my two sons visited me, and I found that they had the same opinion of Trump that I have.

However, if my sons, instead of being the sons of their mother and me, were the sons of someone who supported Trump they very likely would have supported Trump and found good reasons for doing so.

This is where philosophy comes in. What happens to us is largely beyond our control. What is under our control? What is under our control is our attitude to the things that happen to us. That is the essence of the philosophy called Stoicism. To me it makes more sense than any religion. One thing not under our control is death. We know we are all going to die. We can face it rather than believing in nonsense like life after death. We can know that other human beings are in the same boat as us. We can feel sympathy for humans with other opinions from ours. Their identity and the opinions derived from that identity are also a matter of chance.

Anyhow that is what I was thinking when I wrote the post to runner. We have very different opinions, but our opinions are formed by a lot of things which are not under our control. There is no virtue in any political opinion.

Hi there DAVID F...Thank you for persevering with my lack of scholarly opinion. You're right, most of us undoubtedly follow the politics of our parents, irrespective of what our own beliefs might be?

I'm not altogether sure about philosophy though. Coming from very much a lower middle-class family, philosophy itself was rarely even spoken of, little known nor understood. I guess our western upbringing may have had elements of philosophy contained in it, in terms of our belief system, not religious beliefs specifically. Such as obeying our order of law, and the way our political structures are made up, and the many things that denote our form of Aussie culture.

Interestingly DAVID F. I studied one semester of a BA degree, at the Uni. of New England, back 1979. And the first topic was Philosophy, and one of the most important texts that need studying was Bertrand RUSSELL'S 'A History of Western Philosophy'. I found the book utterly fascinating until I found out you didn't just read it, but you had to provide commentary on one or two select chapters even a section or two. That's when I found out University was not for someone with my stunted brain!

Thank's again DAVID F. for once again, taking the time and energy to explain in plain language the essence of your many arguments. I do appreciate it.

David F said- Their identity and the opinions derived from that identity are also a matter of chance.

Answer- Ayn Rand said that our material environment is created by human thought- this is not chance. Opinions can be a matter of choice- but it requires investigating the underlying influences on these opinions. It is a painful self reflective process.

As the environment becomes more complex it involves more randomness- human thought can reduce or increase it- it's our great and terrible power to destroy... or create.

There is value and wisdom in the communities of our ancestors- though some seek to deny it for their own individual power. Every culture needs their own nation.

Like the destruction of the cultivated Chinese by the Mongols the West stands to be destroyed by similar hordes. The stabilizing principles of the West and our families subsumed for a thousand years to be reborn- as something less than the unbroken links of our ancestors.
This "chance" represents a thousand years of blood.

Just some thoughts

"Like the destruction of the cultivated Chinese by the Mongols the West stands to be destroyed by similar hordes. The stabilizing principles of the West and our families subsumed for a thousand years to be reborn- as something less than the unbroken links of our ancestors."

It's a matter of chance whether one was born a cultivated Chinese or a Mongol.

I don't see it that way. But it does provoke some thought.

Conservative that brand once meant something far different that todys use of the word
How much of the world is conservative?
Even here in our country the ALP gets the biggest first preference vote, for any single party, surely not conservatives
Trump is, tell me it is not true, a super conservative
Right now his electoral base, see the polls, is in the 40,s
So what of the rest of America
Hasbeen charged me with a bias about Trump so intense he calls it hate
Just maybe it takes a blindness to others opinions to be a Trump supporter

"Most people that I know not only in Australia but
in the US, Germany, and the UK - all feel like
Belly - about Trump."

You should get a wider body of friends.

But its certainly true that people do tend to seek a bubble in which they only hear news and views that confirm and comfort their own views.

Two iconic stories on this from the recent past:

In the early 2000's one left wing journalist developed the opinion and the theory that Bush must have rigged the election because she'd never met anyone who voted for him.

More recently when it was pointed out that the most popular style of vehicle in the USA was the pickup truck, journalists on the NYT expressed doubt about the statistics because they didn't know anyone who owned such a vehicle. They were of course ubiquitous in fly-over USA

Some of the best journalism over the past few years are from people who've retired into middle America (Surber) or people who've made a conscious effort to understand middle America. These are the people who identified and understood the Trump revolution and consequently predicted the Trump victory.

You simply have to seek them out in order to understand what's happening in the USA. Otherwise you'll continue to be bamboozled by events. That people who spent 2 and a half years believing the lies that were fed to them about Russian collusion, continue to faithfully accept the word of those same sources now, strikes me as a desire to be comforted rather than a desire to understand.

mhaze you understand every chance exists you are wrong?
That just maybe those of us opposed to a fat rich, sexual offending scam artist may not be unbalanced?
Time will tell
Never been one for following trends
Truth matters, sadly less in America than we once thought

Telecommunications (travel, trade) have now made us more inter-connected and interdependent in our modern world than ever before.
Having friends and family living throughout the US and the globe
also helps give some of us a broader picture. Donald Trump's
personality has been described as extreme by any standard.
Narcissistic is a word that's often used. CNN tells us that
he "keeps hitting new lows." That 70% say Trump acts
"unpresidential." The NY Times has documented Donald Trump's
"Sojourn at the White House." The Atlantic - has compiled a time
capsule of the "Things Trump Says." And so it goes.

Love him or loathe him - one thing's for sure. He manages to
attract crowds. Is he good for America? History will judge.

Hi there FOXY...

I think you're right. '...Love him or loathe him - one thing's for sure. He manages to attract crowds. Is he good for America? History will judge...' I don't believe you've ever spoken a truer word, FOXY? Indeed history will judge, unfortunately, I won't be here to know what history has recorded, concerning the Presidency of Donald TRUMP?

Dear mhaze,

You write;

“he has removed the country from the Paris Agreement....good
removed the US from the Iran nuclear deal.....good
tried and failed to repeal Obamacare,....failed? Individual mandate gone plus this http://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/25/trump-obamacare-justice-department-1236116
rolled back Obama’s regulations dealing with pollution and climate change....good”

Mate you really do have Trump Derangement Syndrome in spades don't you.

Most Australians fully support our health care system, it is civilised, keeps healthcare costs in check and it delivers vital healthcare to all Australians. Obamacare was an attempt albeit small to increase the numbers of Americans with access to decent healthcare. There are people dying and being forced into bankruptcy because of the dog eat dog system in the US. Obamacare was a step in the right direction yet here you are celebrating Trump's assault on it.

My question is why? Do you really want to see Medicare dismantled in this country? Or is it just a case of Trump can do no wrong in your eyes and the values we hold in this country come second to your adulation of the tosser?

Dear O Sung Wu,

I recently looked up some of the other US Presidents
and their flaws - JFK did some "unpresidential" things including having serial affairs. He apparently was a compulsive
womaniser. Character flaws in a president can end in tragedy.
JFK did not live long enough for his actions to compromise
him but arguments are that they would have if he had.

Lyndon B. Johnson was known for his rude and overbearing conduct.
He apparently conducted business from the toilet with the
door open. Unfortunately we're told that he clung to a self-
defeating strategy in Vietnam which eventually brought him
not to run for re-election.

Then of course there was Richard M. Nixon (Would you buy a
used car from this man?). He was described as callous,
cynical, and Machiavellian. One of the most disagreeable
and unpopular of presidents.

Bill Clinton - involved in a very "unpresidential"scandal.

I guess if we look closely enough at any history -
it's amazing what we shall find. It's all very subjective
isn't it?

Dear oh dear, SR, you really do struggle to follow the logic of a discussion, don't you.

david f had done a gallop gish of things he saw as Trump's failure. One of those was that he'd " tried and failed to repeal Obamacare,".

In responding to those I simply pointed out that, while he hadn't fully overthrown Obamacare yet, the removal of the individual mandate (which effectively gutted ACA) meant that saying he'd failed was less than accurate.

At no point did offer an opinion on the value of ACA, just that Trump hadn't failed in his fight to remove it. But somehow in the fevered mind of poor poor SR, not only did I say that I hated Obamacare but that also meant I hated Medicare. I can't quite work out if its a failure of simple logic or a failure of reading skills. But whatever it is, it makes no sense.

For the record, I'm not particularly opposed to ACA but think that removing the individual mandate was a blow for individual liberty.

(Just in passing, for those interested in such things, we should note that the ACA only got through the SCOTUS because of the claim it was a tax measure. But without the individual mandate, its no longer a tax measure. That argument is now being pursued through the court system. Obamacare may yet be found to be unconstitutional).

As to SR we probable can't expect too much more from someone who fell so heavily for the Russian collusion fable, but we can only try and help.

Belly,

"mhaze you understand every chance exists you are wrong?"

About what?

"That just maybe those of us opposed to a fat rich, sexual offending scam artist may not be unbalanced?"

Yeah but there's no chance Bill Clinton will ever make a comeback, so chill.

"Never been one for following trends"

You might tell yourself that, but more than anyone else here, you rely on iffy surveys to convince yourself you aren't alone in your thinking.

"Truth matters, sadly less in America than we once thought"
The truth is there was no Russian collusion by Trump but it seems that for many that doesn't matter.

Foxy's earnest naivety amuses me sometimes. I point out that those who've been badly misled over the collusion issue need to be more expansive in their search for information.
Then we see Foxy telling us that her sources are CNN, NYT and The Atlantic - three of the four most anti-Trump MSM in the USA. Its not hard to see how people would be misled if those are their sources. But it is hard to see why they wouldn't be wary believing them following the Mueller revelations.

Dear mhaze,

Ah yes, in the sea of “good” chants you indeed left out one off the end of that particular line. Lol.

Okay, well what about the Obama rules on pollution that was suppose to give greater protection to the drinking water supplies of over 100 million Americans? How will easing reporting rules help them?

Leaving aside carbon pollution which of the standards for water pollution do you feel deserved to be rolled back? The USA currently has some woeful drinking water standards allowing many times the limit of the EU and even China for some notable pollutants such as Arsenic, Benzene, Chromium, Cyanide, Fluoride.

Are there any you wish to see eased even further to the benefit of industry?

My evening wander in these pages has bought up the view again
The view that if I or in this case a new poster, has another view, we should not state it
Trump, the man is a fraud, in time his followers will know it
Give him time, the coming world economic problems will kill any thought he has brought prosperity to America
Just maybe gentlemen, holding the view those with opinions other than yours are lesser beings is rather silly

mhaze,

Your telling me to broaden my sources?

I've only listed a mere few.

What are your sources?

Do tell.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/if-you-re-playing-golf-with-him-he-s-going-to-cheat-20190401-p519l0.html
Giggle worthy good read however

cont'd ...

We have yet to see the Mueller Report in full.

And to also see what the other investigations
reveal.

Mr Mueller charges have been brought against
34 people including Russian agents, and former key
allies of Mr Trump such as campaign chairman Paul
Manafort, former national security adviser Mike Flynn and
his personal lawyer Michael Cohen.

There are still a series of other ongoing inquiries.
The closure of the special counsel's probe does
not mark the end of legal woes for Mr Trump and people
close to him.

SR,

So typical of SR. Utterly screw-up, sort of acknowledge it without acknowledging it ,then, without the slightest sign of contrition, move on to the next piece of idiocy.

I'm not aware of any regulations concerning drinking water being 'watered!!' down. I presume you mean the changes to the WOTUS rules. The only link between that and drinking water is in the minds of anti-development environmentalists. So do provide some links if you like.

BTW I'm looking forward to the post where you explain how you were duped into believing the collusion myth. Belly at least had the balls to accept he'd been wrong.

Belly,
Who's saying you can't post your alternate views. Post away. But you seem to want to be able to post any old rubbish and not have it challenged. That's somewhat different and ain't gunna happen.

Foxy,

"Your telling me to broaden my sources?"

Not exactly. I'm saying that if it were me and it turned out my preferred sources had been leading me down the garden path for 2+ years, I'd, at the very least, be questioning my faith in those sources. I wouldn't just go on believing the gumph they feed me.
Or I'd do that if I was interested in understanding what's going on an getting at the truth. But if I was just interested in having someone confirm my prejudices and tell me comforting stories, then I'd do exactly what you're doing.

"What are your sources?"

I gave you a list a few months ago. Water off a duck's back.

" Mueller charges have been brought against
34 people"

And the number charged with collusion was exactly zero. The majority were Russians who'll never see the inside of a courtroom and Mueller's evidence will never be tested. And he knew it. When one Russian did offer to defend the charges, Mueller's team ran a mile.

Yes, the deep state are still trying to overturn the election via other means. But the main game was getting him on collusion and/or obstruction of justice and that's now over...although your sources won't tell you that.

Dear mhaze,

Stop being so pathetic.

It isn't a screwup when someone is deliberately obtuse with their post. If you want to play your little games then go ahead but I have neither the time nor the inclination to tease apart even little nuance and dance around the truth you employ in your posts.

And please show me where I 'fell' for any myth.

Dear o sung wu,

Are you really saying Obama was a worse president than Nixon? Well mate I'm all ears.

Dear davidf,

Yes it must have been quite confronting to have had an American president investigated as a possible agent for the Russia which was essentially what the investigation was about. And for good reasons outlined in Vanity Fair;

“On the campaign trail, Trump called for Russian hackers to target Hillary Clinton; his son, son-in-law, and campaign manager met with a Kremlin-linked attorney at Trump Tower to secure “high level and sensitive information” on Clinton as part of what they were told was “Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump”; a campaign aide, George Papadopoulos, went abroad in hopes of securing a meeting between Trump and Vladimir Putin while another adviser, Roger Stone, got in contact with Russian military intelligence. During the White House transition, there were a flurry of contacts between Trumpworld and Moscow, including an effort by Jared Kushner to establish a secret backchannel with the Kremlin. Later, as president, Trump bragged about firing Comey to Russian officials in the Oval Office, sought out private meetings with Putin, and repeatedly sided with Russian intelligence over the assessments of his own agencies.”

It is obvious given the above that the FBI needed to investigate the depth of any collusion between Trump, his campaign and the Russians. Not to have done so would have been an abrogation of their responsibilities to the American people.

It is hopefully a relief for you that they ultimately found the evidence not strong enough to force them to indict the leader of your country sparing you the deep ignominy of having him besmirch the long history of the Republic by being indicted as a traitor.

Dear SteeleRedux,

I do not think the vulgar orange oaf is fit to be president. An unfit president should be removed from office. It is a greater ignominy to have him remain in office than to have him removed.

He has acerbated hatred of Muslims, Jews, homosexuals, blacks and the press. I believe the increase in hate crimes are a direct result of his incendiary rhetoric.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46189391

“Hate crimes in the US rose by 17% in 2017, the third straight year that incidents of bias-motivated attacks have grown, according to the FBI.

Law enforcement agencies reported 7,175 hate crimes last year compared with 6,121 in 2016.

The rise in hate crimes is attributed to an increase of about 1,000 police departments that are now choosing to report these incidents, the FBI says.

The report found the surge especially affected black and Jewish Americans.

Of the reported attacks in 2017, 2,013 were aimed at African Americans and 938 were against Jewish Americans.”

When black athletes protested the incidents of killing unarmed black men by trigger happy police his reaction was fury against the athletes.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/sep/22/donald-trump-nfl-national-anthem-protests

“Donald Trump launched a sensational attack on NFL players who have kneeled in protest of the national anthem during a speech in Alabama on Friday night, challenging the league’s owners to release anyone who engages in the movement started last year by former San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick.

“Wouldn’t you love to see one of these NFL owners, when somebody disrespects our flag, to say, ‘Get that son of a bitch off the field right now. Out! He’s fired. He’s fired!’” the president said at a rally for Republican senator Luther Strange, who is running in a special election next week to remain in the seat vacated by attorney general Jeff Sessions.”

A free press is a guardian of our liberty. When the press focuses on Trump’s divisive rhetoric and other egregious behavior he yells “fake news.”

https://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/09/politics/donald-trump-birther/index.html contains a story of Trump’s lies about Obama’s birth. Trump was a purveyor of fake news.

Throw the bum out.

your bigotry knows no bound davidf

Dear runner,

I call it like it is.

'I call it like it is.'

no davidf you call as you think or even want it to be. Hatred certainly blinds.

My dear runner,

You support one of the foremost hatemongers in Trump. The hatred you have spread across this forum is unique. You really don't get to flag someone like davidf as being hateful when he speaks the truth, even if it is about the man you consider just one step below Jesus.

The bible warns against idolatry yet your adulation of this philandering sexual perpetrator seems to know no bounds. It is time to remove his image from above your bed and focus on the true Jesus, one who would deem your behaviour as sinful in the extreme.

mhaze,

So you question my sources and fail to give me yours?

I don't remember any list you claim to have given
earlier. How about putting one up now?

Or else as they say - put up or ...

http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/there-s-good-news-bad-news-and-worse-news-about-donald-trump-20190401-p519kz.html
May be worth a break from Fox/Sky news and read this
Some thing in it for both sides, even [yes I think it may be true] Trump has every chance of being re elected
Warning, the America that stayed out of the second world war *to profit from it*,until they had no choice, still exists
No country ever should trust deals done, with a country Trump runs
America PTY LTD wants world trade, but only if it is the benefactor

SR,

"I have neither the time nor the inclination to tease apart even little nuance and dance around the truth you employ in your posts."

No problems there. But don't then turn your lack of rigour into an misunderstood attack on what you think are my views because, when you do that, its a screw-up.

"And please show me where I 'fell' for any myth."

david f

The myth of collusion and that Trump was a patsy and lackey of Putin. Please don't try to suggest you haven't written on that previously.

"He has acerbated hatred of Muslims, Jews..."

Yes we've seen his hatred of Jews in moving the embassy to Jerusalem and recognising the Golan Heights as part of Israel. His son-in-law and grandkids are Jewish. But why am I mentioning facts when they clearly don't matter?

" I believe the increase in hate crimes are a direct result of his incendiary rhetoric."

"The rise in hate crimes is attributed to an increase of about 1,000 police departments that are now choosing to report these incidents, the FBI says."

Who to believe?

BTW I think the increase in hoax hate crimes is due to the lack of actual Trump related hate crimes.

Foxy,

"Or else as they say - put up or ..."

Here you go.... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8353#261842

Actually its interesting that I could do that same post from 9 months ago today, virtually unchanged.

I find it fascinating that people will continue to believe sources who've clearly misled them over and over. But as I said, its about seeking confirmation for pre-judged views and comfort in being told what you want to hear. Its not about seeking the truth.

People like david f can think of Trump as anti-Jewish when the evidence laughs at such a view. Why? Because he wants it to be true, irrespective of the evidence.

SR can simultaneously believe that Trump colluded with the Russians to win the election but also needed to try to open back-channels after the election. Both things can't be true, unless you just want them to be true.

Double-think lives.

100 plus entirely ineffectual posts about a foreign politician when we have much more to worry about with our own two bozos, Morrison and Shorten, and which of the two idiots will 'lead' our own country after the election in a couple of months. What we should be concentrating on is our own totalitarian compulsory voting and preferential system, which favours a virtually lock-step two-party system which is gradually becoming a one-party system in all but name.

In the upcoming election, voters are interested in three big issues: rapid population growth, high electricity costs, and political correctness. But the political class is intent on not talking about these issues; the Coalition and Labor have fundamentally the same view on these issues. There is literally no difference on population growth. The Coalition offers a slightly less destructive climate change policy, with a 39 per cent renewable energy target as opposed to Labor’s 50 per cent target. And the government’s decision to ban Milo Yiannopoulos from entering Australia is just the latest example of their apathy, if not outright hostility, to free speech. A hostility that will only be outdone by a Shorten Labor government.

So, voting will not make a scrap of difference at the next election. Forget Trump and foreign politicians, none of which are any worse than our own (in similar systems), and write 'None of these” across the ballot paper, and comments like “end mass immigration” and “end multiculturalism” where space is available.

Mark Twain wrote that, 'if voting did any good, they wouldn't let us do it'.

Dutifully voting for people you know are no-hopers is a waste of time. So do something different to show them just how fed up you are.

mhaze,

I'm not surprised that you could supply us with
the same list of your sources from nine months
ago. They're all from conservative news sources,
and largely Trump supporters. I would have been
surprised if the list would have changed.

These days we find that anyone who disagrees with
a news story angle calls it "biased." Or "fake news."
Conservatives hate CNN and MSNBC.

To me - it would seem that
a journalist's first obligation is to the truth.
The source of their credibility is their accuracy,
intellectual fairness and ability to inform.

When journalists let personal biases hinder their
objectivity it puts the entire media organisation at
risk.

Thankfully there are still media outlets left that uphold
these principals. CNN, is listed as one of the most
trusted and credible sources in the US. As are many on
my list.

However, each to their own.

A couple of posts here tell us we should not talk about Trump
And anything we do say is not true
Lets wait and see how some defend their words sitting in the wreckage that was Trump, after his fall

I don't believe Trump is anti-Jewish. I don't think he is for or against any ethnic group or race. He is interested in power and money. As a landlord he practiced racial restrictions and denied accommodations to blacks. That was against the law, and he was cited for it. I don’t believe he is anti-black. I believe he judged that denying blacks accommodation would enable him to make more money by attracting tenants who would not want to live with blacks.

In my opinion he does not hate Jews, Latinos, Muslims, blacks or any other ethnic or religious group. However, he is keenly aware of the prejudices of his base and wants to cater to them. His base is the fundamentalist Protestants of the United States. That base harbours the KKK, white supremacist and other groups. I think he calculates that it pays to cater to those prejudices. I wrote that he exacerbates hatreds. I did not accuse him of being a hater himself.

One of the great problems in this world is uncontrolled population growth. IMHO as president of the United States, Trump should be interested in solving those problems. Planned Parenthood is a force in attacking that particular problem. However, he caters to his base by defunding them.

Why did he move the US embassy to Jerusalem and become buddy-buddy with Netanyahu? Approximately 80% of American Jews vote Democrat. However, by his actions in Israel he might peel off a few of those votes. Since he is a skilled politician and manipulator he may have made a good guess.

Of course Trump is not a patsy of Putin. IMHO he admires Putin, Duterte and other dictators because he would like to control the United States to the extent that they can control their countries. He is not a patsy of anybody.

Trump is for Trump. Understand that, and you understand him.

ttbn wrote: 100 plus entirely ineffectual posts about a foreign politician …

I agree with ttbn. However, since I am a citizen of the USA, Trump is not a foreign politician to me.

Dear David F.,

I agree that Trump is about money and power -
but with all due respect I believe that
Donald Trump is a racist. He's been obsessed with
race the entire time he's been a public figure.

He has a history as a NY real estate developer
in the 70s and 80s. More recently his political
rise was built on promulgating the lie that the
nation's first black President was born in Kenya.
He calls African countries s-hole countries. He
talks about immigrants as rapists and murderers.
He says that the only people he wants handling
his money are those who wear yarmulkes.

He talks about and treats people differently based
on their race. The NY Times tells us how Trump
treated his black employees at his casinos
differently from whites because he believed that
"laziness is a trait in blacks." He called for a complete
shut-down of Muslims entering the US and he refused to
re-admit Muslim Americans who were outside of the
country at that time.

Trump said a federal judge hearing a case about
Trump university was biased because the judge had
a Mexican heritage. Trump highlights crimes
committed by dark-skinned people. He stated that
immigrants from Haiti "all have aids."
And he doesn't want them or Africans in the US
he want more from Norway.

He called Elizabeth Warren - "Pocahontas."
And Obama (editor in chief of Harvard Law Review)
as a "terrible, terrible, student."Trump trafficked in
anti-Semitic caricatures. He called white-supremasists -
"very fine people."

And the list goes on.

Dear Foxy,

I know about Trump's racist statements. That is why I wrote that he is exacerbating prejudice. However, does he make them because he is a racist or because he is catering to his racist base? Is he a sincere racist? It is hard for me to believe he is sincere about anything other than a desire for money and power.

Of course his moving the embassy to Jerusalem and his buddy-buddy with Netanyahu is not only to attract the Jews but also to appeal to the many Christian Zionists who are in his base.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism

It is fascinating stuff. Christian Zionism is a turnoff to many Jews because many Christian Zionists believe a return to Israel is a prelude to Jews betraying their religion and becoming Christians.

Dear David F.,

Trump uses words like - Blacks, Mexicans, Muslims,
Jews, - as slurs. He's Ok with caging brown children and
justifying white nationalism. This is more than just
politics. It indicates who the man is, and what he
believes in, and who he admires.

What I find disturbing
is that this rhetoric is acceptable to a disturbingly
significant swath of the US population. A non racist
would not use these kind of tactics.

yeah david f our own socialist media outlet (abc) has a privileged half aboriginal woman crapping on the picture of a white woman's face (all class) and you are concerned with Trump's 'racism'. A foolish man calls an afl player a monkey (actually evolutionary teaching) and then cops a hammering from the lying liberal media. How about the black homosexual actor who made up and paid Nigerians to attack him and then claim those wearing maga hats did it. You are a very sad cookie blinded to true racism. Trump could be like many many of the swamp in that he is has a lot of self interest. You can guarentee though not as much self interest as the likes of Obama and Clinton. And as for Foxy defending Pocahontas pssss! What a despicable act in stealing real Indians jobs. Does not surprise me davidf that you support the murderous baby killing factories of planned parenthood. You are bound by idiotic ideologies. Much much more dangerous than Trump.

David a slap from runner about our socialist media is nothing if not amusing
TRULY Trump has put new meaning in to once respectable words
Runner be advised one of us, you or me, is totally wrong, totally,
Hope, as I have done here, you man up when we know who
I refuse to believe the answer to racial hate is more hate
Never going to think Trump is good for anything worthwhile

When all else fails; when your arguments are exposed as crap, yell 'racist'. At least that's what used to work. Not any more folks, as anyone dragging out that cliched old word is now automatically branded a loser.

Foxy,

"They're all from conservative news sources".

Well if you read the thread, or, less likely, remembered it, you'd see that I was just posting those conservatives sights that I read in addition to other sights. Oh dear...

" it would seem that a journalist's first obligation is to the truth"

And yet you still follow CNN. oh dear...
http://dailycaller.com/2018/08/31/cnn-list-bungled-reporting-fake-news/

" CNN, is listed as one of the most trusted and credible sources in the US."

Oh Foxy...that's just precious. Hilariously I think she really believes it. Listed as credible by who? CNN? Oh dear..

"He called for a complete shut-down of Muslims entering the US"

Utterly false. Utterly false. But how can you be expected to know better, given your sources.

"He called white-supremasists -"very fine people."
Utterly false. Utterly false. But how can you be expected to know better, given your sources.

"He's Ok with caging brown children"
Just as Obama did. But that's different because...reasons.

david f,

If you start with the premise that Trump only does this or that for the votes, it becomes impossible to see anything he does as anything other than chasing votes.

For example you assert that he moved the embassy to Jerusalem merely to gain some Jewish votes. No chance he did it because its the right thing? Apparently not. Yet Obama said he'd move the embassy too. As did both Clintons. Were they just chasing votes?

Then we get david telling us that Trump should support Planned Parenthood to further policies that david supports. Remember when someone said "Elections have consequences"? That was the Obamessiah. In the end we see david finally reveal that he's just pissed off with Trump because he won't implement the left agenda. Rather pathetic really.

"Planned Parenthood is a force in attacking that particular problem.[claimed overpopulation]". In fact Planned Parenthood was created to solve a different problem...too many black babies being born.

Dear mhaze,

I'm not even sure your last post makes the coherency muster. Were you talking to davidf or me?

I certainly said; “Yes it was difficult to contemplate how any patriotic American candidate would so directly involve themselves with Russian assistance in an attempt to win the majority of the electoral college votes.” and this was never denied even by his own camp. Yet it didn't make the very high bar which is needed to get an indictment.

I had adopted Chomsky's view; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtqWezfIhMY&t=171s

Corruption over collusion every time with Trump.

And as to davidf's statement "He has acerbated hatred of Muslims, Jews..." why did you attempt to turn it into him claiming Trump hated Jews when that is clearly not what he said?

Planned Parenthood is a great organization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_Parenthood

“The origins of Planned Parenthood date to October 16, 1916, when Margaret Sanger, her sister Ethel Byrne, and Fania Mindell opened the first birth control clinic in the U.S. in the Brownsville section of the New York borough of Brooklyn. They distributed birth control, birth control advice, and birth control information. All three women were arrested and jailed for violating provisions of the Comstock Act, accused of distributing obscene materials at the clinic. The so-called Brownsville trials brought national attention and support to their cause. Sanger and her co-defendants were convicted on misdemeanor charges, which they appealed through two subsequent appeals courts. While the convictions were not overturned the judge who issued the final ruling also modified the law to permit physician-prescribed birth control. The women's campaign led to major changes in the laws governing birth control and sex education in the United States.

In 1921, the clinic was organized into the American Birth Control League, the core of the only national birth-control organization in the U.S. until the 1960s. By 1941, it was operating 222 centers and had served 49,000 clients. However, some found its title offensive and "against families", so the League began discussions for a new name. In 1938, a group of private citizens organized the Citizens Committee for Planned Parenthood to aid the American Birth Control League in spreading scientific knowledge about birth control to the general public. In 1942, the League officially changed its name to the Planned Parenthood Federation of America.”

My former wife who is now dead was a visiting nurse. One of her clients was a woman worn out from childbearing. Elizabeth gave her information on birth control. Elizabeth was fired.

During WW2 my lovely cousin parted from her boyfriend who was going off to war. Two months later she heard her boyfriend was killed in action. She also was pregnant. Marilyn committed suicide. Had she had access to a safe and legal abortion she could have got with her life.

Free access to contraceptives and safe, legal abortion has lightened the lives of women.

'Planned Parenthood is a great organization.'

yeah davidf

toss up between planned parenthood and isis as to who is the most barbaric. I think isis is more honest in their intentions.

No runner, Christian organisations like this one take the prize.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/03/mass-grave-of-babies-and-children-found-at-tuam-orphanage-in-ireland

These weren't early embryonic forms but rather sentient children who through their mothers not having access to something like planned parenthood were forced into the 'care' of a Christian institution where they died from neglect and abuse.

This was just one such place of torment your religion produced. How many countless children ended up in unmarked graves because of the policies and faith you support?

so desperate eh steelie to justify the barbaric murders done by the millions thanks to planned parenthood.

"A foolish man calls an afl player a monkey (actually evolutionary teaching)"

Dear runner,

Calling a man a monkey has nothing to do with evolution or evolutionary teaching. Evolutionary theory contends that monkeys and human have common ancestry. That does not mean humans are descended from monkeys.

david f

do a little research and you will find that scientist got very excited when they first saw aboriginals believing they could well of found the ever elusive missing link. People who believe in the fantasy of evolution often come to wrong conclusions and this was no difference.

'Some 19th- and 20th-century Darwinists thought that all non-Caucasian people were ape-like and therefore inferior to whites. Darwin himself wrote that “at some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes [apes that look human] . . . will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla” (Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man, 2nd ed., John Murray, London, p. 156, 1887).

leftist love to point out the 'sins' of the church while ignoring their complete bigotry based on pseudo science.

runner have you given any thought to your view of Christ? as opposed to the one I learned about in the Bible
It will always be my view the extreme right claiming ownership of Christ will, in time, kill the religion
Maybe Trump is the missing link
Something is missing in the hate filled man
I thought I found in God the hope and reason men wanted, a path to being a better person in a better world
Most Christians still think like that
What is the purpose of a world divided by hate, fear of difference,hate of difference

Question Runner- What would you think of birth control for non-Christian's?

SR,

"And please show me where I 'fell' for any myth."

The myth you fell for was the idea that there was collusion between Trump and Putin to hand Trump the presidency and that therefore Trump was indebted to Putin.

We now know that is utter rubbish. Or rather you now know it. Those of us who weren't stuck dumb with Trump Derangement Syndrome knew it from the outset.

One of the benefits of a sight like this is that it allows people to go back over their past postings to see how their views have changed over time. As I've been trying to get Foxy to recognise, if your previous views have been shown to be utterly wrong you need to understand how you got it so wrong.
In her case, it was because she relies entirely on media that openly barracked against Trump and simply refused to see anything that suggested against collusion. And she willingly and anxiously believed it.

In your case, it was because you simply believe anything that is anti-Trump no matter how ill-informed and that you will spin anything mildly favourable to Trump as being a negative.

As I said in another thread, I was enormously impressed that Belly openly admitted that he got the whole collusion thing wrong. Unfortunately it seems that he isn't going to take the next step and examine why and how he got it so wrong, but owning up is nonetheless to his credit.

It seems that most others are going to pretend they weren't led down the garden path on what is one of the most important stories so far this century - the attempt to overthrown an elected government

Dear mhaze,

Yes indeed the benefits of this forum is the ability to be able to go back and look at other people's position.

So when you state; "The myth you fell for was the idea that there was collusion between Trump and Putin to hand Trump the presidency and that therefore Trump was indebted to Putin." I feel comfortable in your ability to back it up.

I certainly think Putin is so far above Trump in both ability and cunning that he has been repeatedly able to lead him by the nose. It is also evident that Trump has gone out of his way to go easy on Putin by for instance attempting to ease sanctions.

The American justice system felt, as I did, that there was enough reason to initiate an investigation of possible collusion. I fully support both their reasons and in the case of Mueller his professionalism.

Why didn't you?

'Question Runner- What would you think of birth control for non-Christian's?'

Canem

certainly better than killing the babies.

SR,

(smile)

"I feel comfortable in your ability to back it up."

So you're not denying that you fell for the myth, just hoping that I won't bother finding the evidence that you did so.

"The American justice system felt, as I did, that there was enough reason to initiate an investigation of possible collusion. I fully support both their reasons and in the case of Mueller his professionalism."

The American Justice system? Rubbish. It was a few anti-Trump bureaucrats at the top of the FBI who wanted to protect their position, hide their illegal acts and reverse an election result they didn't like. They knew by mid-2017, and probably much earlier, that there was no there-there. Nevertheless they continued the facade of investigation. What they really wanted to do was to try to get Trump to lash-out so that they could sustain an obstruction of justice charge. But he and his legal team out-smarted them.

But to continue the provocations they needed to continue to pretend to be investigating the collusion. So every few months they'd throw out some new indictment which had nothing to do with collusion but everything to do with continuing to fool those who desperately wanted the collusion myth to be true.

And now its all unravelling. Some will admit they were fooled. Others will pretend otherwise.

mhaze yes I got it wrong
Modern America is fertile ground for getting it wrong
No collusion, not that we are told about
But this is America, Trump is, at the least, a criminal, lie, telling con man, sexual predator
If you, or I for that matter,had to release a report that showed collusion
Would you
Could America stand that
We are talking about a country, on all sides of politics, is a big B grade movie studio
I got it wrong, but I never cleared Trump, he may yet fall, over his own lies and deceptions

Dear mhaze,

You are taking a liberty old chap.

When I wrote "So when you state; "The myth you fell for was the idea that there was collusion between Trump and Putin to hand Trump the presidency and that therefore Trump was indebted to Putin." I feel comfortable in your ability to back it up." it should be taken as you therefore have no excuses so put up or shut up.

So go and back it up and then we can talk.

Belly, strong words.

In view of your opinion of trump, just how would you describe ex president Clinton?

In retrospect Steely, I take it back.

You are a fool, in fact an egotistical opinionated fool to be accurate.

To help you, it is your high opinion of your self that makes you such a dill.

"Of course Trump wants to invite Putin to the White House, after all he was the person responsible for Trump gaining the presidency."
...SR 9/4/18

"Dear Kirby483,

Your list is pure Cult of Putin's Puppet stuff." (referring to DJT)
....SR 20/7/18

"Since Putin's Puppet took office .." (referring to DJT)
....SR 21/7/18

http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/oops-trump-wrongly-claims-his-father-was-born-in-germany-again-20190403-p51a92.html
Every day another lie why?
He can not help himself
Our Hasbeen throws Bill Clinton at me, in a feeble effort to stall opinions about Trump
Feeble in deed Hasbeen

mhaze,

You stated that your list of sources were not the
only sources that you used. Nice to hear. But why
not allow that assumption to others as well instead
of pointing out that they're biased and implying
that you're not. Perceptions of bias and
inaccuracy differs as we all know (or should) based
on people's political persuasions - especially with
regard to news outlets in the US like - Fox News,
Breitbart News, CNN, and MSNBC to name just a few.

According to A.Gallup/Knight Foundation and people
surveyed - the only two media organisations that
Republicans said were not biased were Fox News
and The Wall Street Journal. President Donald Trump
takes issue with outlets like CNN and The New York
Times for publishing critical stories about his
administration. In many tweetstorms Trump has described
the media as "Ënemy of the people" especially CNN
and The New York Times. And of course any Trump
supporter would naturally agree.

Overall survey respondents said PBS News and The
Associated Press were the least biased outlets.

Dear mhaze,

What? Is that it? How on earth does any of that have any bearing on the charge of collusion/conspiracy? It doesn't.

What else do you have?

Look the word collusion in this case is probably better defined as conspiracy, especially as there is really little mention of the word collusion in the legal framework around this.

So whatever assistance the Russians gave Trump and whatever concessions Trump delivered as a result really don't matter in this instance. For the charge of conspiracy to be upheld it has to be demonstrated there was a direct agreement between two or more people to commit an unlawful act.

“Black's Law Dictionary defines collusion as "a deceitful agreement or compact between two or more persons, for the one party to bring an action against the other for some evil purpose, as to defraud a third party..." A conspiracy, on the other hand, is defined as "a combination or confederacy between two or more persons formed for the purposes of committing, by their joint efforts, some unlawful or criminal act, or some act which is innocent in itself, but becomes unlawful when done by the concerted action of the conspirators."  “

It would be interesting to know what would have happened if the Russians had directly hacked Hillary's emails rather than the DNC after Trump called for them to do so.

Dear Hasbeen,

You write;

"In retrospect Steely, I take it back. You are a fool, in fact an egotistical opinionated fool to be accurate. To help you, it is your high opinion of your self that makes you such a dill."

Firstly I'm not sure what you are taking back but secondly we really are peas in a pod aren't we. This must be why we get on so well.

In fact you really are my 'brother from another mother' as they say in the classics.

Bro.

"Is Trump a racist?"
An article in The Nation tells us that:

The emphasis on one
individual's personal views, actions or statements misses
the point, if the goal is to dismantle racism.

Martin Luther King clarified the distinction in 1963 when
he challenged the idea that legislation - "Has no great
role to play in this period of social change because you've
got to change the heart and you can't change the heart through
legislation."

King replied - "It may be true the law cannot make a man love
me but it can keep him from lynching me!"

The problem in the US we're told - is not the backward views of
individuals, even if one of those individuals occupies the
Oval Office.

What plagues the US is a vast array of
public policies and practices that perpetuate a status quo
that is grossly unequal and unjust after centuries of
explicit radicalised economic exploitation that is
maintained by widespread contemporary implicit bias.
It is these public policies and practices that are the
problem and that need to be addressed.

Far more dangerous than Trump's personal beliefs are his
public actions to "Make America White Again." His
political efforts to consolidate the support of millions
of individuals who fervently believe that White Americans
are under siege from people of colour, especially Mexicans,
Mexican Americans, Muslims, and so on. At a recent Trump
rally in El Paso, Texas, a Trump supporter articulated the
public policy priorities of far too many Americans when
he said, "Build the wall, deport them all."

The Nation tells us that the Democrats and
progressives made a fatal miscalculations in 2016 when they
emphasized Trump's personality over his policies. HUndreds of
millions of dollars were spent by the Clinton campaign and
progressive allies highlighting the shortcomings of Trump's
temperament, sending the message that something was wrong
with "him."

Had they highlighted his racial hateful and harmful agenda
instead, then voters, especially moderate white voters,
would have had to wonder if something was wrong with "them"
if they chose to side with his candidacy.

cont'd ...

Foxy,

I'm not accusing you of bias (at least not this time). What I'm trying to get you to understand is that you so badly misunderstood the collusion myth because of the sources you put your faith in. CNN were the worst in this regard, but NYT were not good either.

They actively pushed the anti-Trump line and promoted every story that supported the collusion myth and actively avoided any mitigating data. They were willing participants in helping FBI leakers and accepted so-called anonymous sources without question so long as it promoted the anti-Trump line.

All those who believed the CNN/MSNBC/NYT line were equally duped and are equally trying to work out how they got it so wrong.

Unlike you, massive numbers of viewers have abandoned CNN and MSNBC since the Mueller bombshell and most have gone to Fox who alone of all electronic press, always remained clear-headed about the collusion story.

All I'm saying is that, if you diversify your sources, you will be less likely to be duped next time.

Here's another source people would do well to follow...Mollie Hemingway
http://thefederalist.com/2019/04/01/heres-why-i-didnt-fall-for-the-russia-trump-conspiracy/#.XKIsQIxJsmQ.twitter

I read her regularly. She's a treasure.

SR,

Try to change the issue all you like. Call it conspiracy if you want. But the Mueller probe was a collusion probe.

But no matter what you call it, you fell for the myth and accepted that Trump was beholden to Putin. That has coloured your already jaundiced understanding of the Trump administration and will continue to do so. Again, it would do you well to examine how you were duped and seek to rectify it, even if you haven't got the wherewithal, unlike Belly, to admit you were willingly misled.

"It would be interesting to know what would have happened if the Russians had directly hacked Hillary's emails rather than the DNC".

They didn't need to. The Clinton server had already been breached by the Chinese who were receiving real-time copies of all emails into and out of that server. The Chinese will have been sharing anything interesting with the Russians and probably ISIS - remember Benghazi.

cont'd ...

With the 2020 presidential campaign now underway,
The Nation article says that it would be electorally
disastrous for the Democrats to replicate that
strategic emphasis.

They tell us that the better answer to the question
"Is Trump Racist?" is that it's not about who he is,
it's about who "Americans are" who they are as a country.

Whatever is in his heart, his actions plainly show that
Trump is trying to return the US to a time when racism and
white supremacy was the law of the land.

But the US and American people are a better people than
that and if they make the right strategic decisions today,
according to The Nation they can reclaim the political power
necessary to build a country that reflects their highest
and best values and ideals.

There's more at the following link:

http://www.thenation.com/article/donald-trump-racist-democratic-party/

mhaze,

I find that "The Federalist,"and its founder Bob
Domenech - a bit too extreme for my taste. As for
Molly? she's a pro Trump commentator and a pro
Trump defender. You think she's a "treasure,"
well you are entitled to your opinion.
I'll stick with the facts.

Dear mhaze,

You write; “But no matter what you call it, you fell for the myth and accepted that Trump was beholden to Putin.”

Of course he is beholden to Putin. Nearly every action regarding Russia even before he became president illustrates how beholden he is to him. That is not what was considered rather was there a prima facie case that the two conspired to engage in an illegal act.

The term 'Collusion Myth' should be aimed at yourself. Nowhere in the Mueller's brief nor the four page report released by the AG does the word collusion arise. Conspiracy howver is repeatedly employed. I am not trying to change anything rather you are determined to hold on to your pet term even though I clearly showed it was incorrect.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/AG_March_24_2019_Letter_to_House_and_Senate_Judiciary_Committees.pdf

I invite you to show me anywhere I have claimed that there was enough evidence to convict Trump on conspiracy charges.

There is however plenty of evidence to show Trump's team met with Russian agents to secure dirt on their opponents. It is not disputed by Rudy Giuliani, it may not have been conspiracy but it was certainly a form of collusion.

https://www.pewresearch.org/science/quiz/science-knowledge-quiz/ is a quiz that gives an insight on how much you know about science.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-are-smart-about-science/?wpisrc=nl_science&wpmm=1 discusses the results of the quiz and relates it to political groupings in the US.

There has been some discussion of science on this thread, and this quiz might be fun to take.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/trump-is-unraveling-before-our-eyes-20190404-p51al7.html
Daid remove the s from the first part of your link,see mine, it will then work
We can continue to ignore Trump has issues, but we are only deceiving ourselves if we do
Our bias/refusal to seethe man as he is, will change nothing

SR,

Still trying to change the subject to a semantic issue between 'collusion' and 'conspiracy'?

Call it whatever you want because neither exist in regards to Trump-Russia. I use collusion because that's been the standard nomenclature for the past two years.

"Nearly every action regarding Russia even before he became president illustrates how beholden he is to him."

Are you gunna offer some examples or is that just something you assert while trying to pretend you weren't fooled by the myth-makers.

"I invite you to show me anywhere I have claimed that there was enough evidence to convict Trump on conspiracy charges."

I invite you to show me where I suggested you made that claim. More attempts at changing the subject...sorry, not playing.

What I'm saying is that you fell for the myth that there was collusion (call it a conspiracy if you want) between Trump and Putin to hand the election to Trump and that Trump is therefore a puppet to Putin. Its a myth. It was always a myth. You bought it. And you need to consider how you were duped.

"Trump's team met with Russian agents to secure dirt on their opponents."

There was one meeting and you clearly know very little about it.
FYG, it was a trap set by Fusion GPS and possibly the FBI. They Russians involved had nothing to do with the Russian government. It was a low level discussion which Trump didn't even attend. It lasted 30 minutes and the only thing discussed was some issues around sanctions. But it was one of the things those perpetrating the myth put out, so its little wonder you bought it.

Dear mhaze,

Semantics? Anybody with the slightest sense of what this was about and followed it without a MAGA hat firmly secured would not have said that.

You bought the myth that this was about collusion. Why? Because it was exactly how Trump and Rudi and the rest of their spin doctors set about directing the debate and you swallowed the lot.

Giuliani himself repeatedly claimed and I quote “I never said there was no collusion between the campaign, or between people in the campaign” along with “I know that collusion is not a crime. “

Instead he claimed “There is not a single bit of evidence the president of the United States committed the only crime you can commit here, conspiring with the Russians to hack the DNC”.

It is not only me who knew the difference but it was pretty clear to most people properly following the issue. Why wasn't it for you?

So when you said; “BTW how educated were all those people who fell for the collusion story?” you are probably best placed to answer it.

Look I understand why you got this so wrong given Trump and his lawyer have cleverly repeatedly framed this in terms of 'collusion'.

But the idea that this was about collusion is a myth propagated by them. You ably assisted and will rightly now feel like a dupe. Don't worry, you are not the first one Trump has done over nor will you be the last.

As I have already said it was the FBI's responsibility to investigate the depth of the obvious collusion to see if it extended into conspiracy. They have done their job as we should expect of them and for you to keep labeling them 'deep state' doesn't afford Mueller he respect he deserves for serving the American people in the matter he did.

Now trot on back to your fawning of your idol chanting 'NO COLLUSION' if that makes you happy, but the rest of us aren't buying into the myth my friend. So get over it.

Pretty pathetic, SR, trying to pretend you weren't duped by playing childish word games.

But let's play it your way....

You were duped into believing there was a CONSPIRACY between Trump and Russia to give Trump the presidency and that Trump is consequently beholden to Putin.

You see SR, no matter what you call it, there wasn't any conspiracy or collusion or any other silly synonym you might conjure. But you allowed yourself to be convinced there was because you wanted it to be so. Truth or evidence didn't exist or matter. You just wanted to believe Trump was Putin's puppet because your fantasy world made more sense that way.

Again, are you going to offer any evidence for your claim that "Nearly every action regarding Russia even before he became president illustrates how beholden he is to him" or is that just another thing you make-up to try to avoid simply accepting you were on the wrong side of this?

As I said, I was impressed that Belly had the balls to just accept reality. You? Not so much.

Dear mhaze,

Strewth mate, it's like talking to a primary school kid.

You just won't let go of the myth will you. I have given you detailed reasoning to show you why you have been duped yet you are determined not to engage a single one. I have even quoted Trump and his lawyer Giulliani who clearly know the difference between collusion and conspiracy yet you are still clinging to the claim of semantics.

Now you are trying to say Trump being beholden to Putin is me claiming there was a conspiracy. Look, I blame myself, I obviously am seriously failing to get through to you the true nature of conspiracy. There are plenty of world leaders who are beholden to others leaders, Turnbull and Trump spring to mind. This is NOT evidence of conspiracy. So I will repeat the definition of conspiracy I gave earlier in the hope it might register this time.

From Blake's law dictionary; "a deceitful agreement or compact between two or more persons, for the one party to bring an action against the other for some evil purpose, as to defraud a third party...".

Now you have all my post history at your fingertips so I yet again ask you to provide one instance where I asserted there was a conspiracy between Putin and Trump.

When I asked the question "It would be interesting to know what would have happened if the Russians had directly hacked Hillary's emails rather than the DNC", you didn't address it except to say flippantly they didn't need to. That would have probably been enough to indict Trump on conspiracy charges.

Finally what evidence are you prepared to present saying there was no collusion between Russia and the Trump camp when Trump's own lawyer Giulliani basically accepts there was?

You really have just been playing catch up on this haven't you. Time to properly drop the myth that this was about 'collusion'. Can't you accept you were wrong on this and move on?

mhaze I think you are missing one point.

SR & the rest of them wanted desperately to find something, anything against Trump.

They know the Clintons are as dirty an anyone who has lived in the white house, & they deserve prison. They are terrified their dealings with Putin could be revealed during this election campaign, & want Trump out of the picture with out an election.

Posted by david f, Thursday, 4 April 2019 4:54:32 AM
There has been some discussion of science on this thread, and this quiz might be fun to take.

Answer- Interesting results as you advised on here.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-are-smart-about-science/?wpisrc=nl_science&wpmm=1

From the website...

They want to find out whether people like Neil DeGrasse Tyson are right when they blame scientific illiteracy for problems like disbelief in climate change.

“And interesting thing about that,” Besley said. “Turns out the relationship between what people know about science and their attitudes about science … is pretty small.” That is to say, Americans who know more science facts don’t necessarily hold the science policy beliefs actual scientists would prefer, nor do Americans who know the least have the least trust in science. And despite very different ideologies on a number of scientific issues, Republicans and Democrats score about the same on the Pew survey. What’s more, Besley said, experiments that tried to change a belief about a science topic by increasing people’s science education have largely failed.

We like threads about the funny bloke in the white house, see the numbers of threads and contributions
Much like the yo yo or other past next big thing, some of us clutch the mans every word to our breasts claiming only he knows what needs doing
Others [me] grin and think of that fairy tail about the king's new clothes
Ignoring the reams of news stories, even from within his own camp, has become a skill for some supporters
Baffling as it is some even project things they think, desperately want to believe, he stands for, yet in truth he never ever did
Q gee that getting a mention may bring some Americans here in deep joy, see it like Trump is a fraud, google it and wonder how
Adults can be fooled so totally by a fraud

Hasbeen,

I'd agree with that. The deep state were shocked that Trump, an outsider, won. Not only did he threaten all their long-held policy positions but they were now under serious legal threat.

Because they'd believed, along with all the other 'elite', that Hillary was a shoe-in, they'd been acting unlawfully to help her out, hoping that that would earn them a seat at the feast after her inevitable victory. The Clintons were known to reward the loyal and punish their enemies or even those who weren't entirely sycophantic.

So in November 2016, the deep state players who'd done things like spy on the Trump campaign, abuse the FISA process and leak on behalf of Clinton were in a bind. If the new administration started to look into such things, then their careers were over and prison was a real possibility.

At the same time the Clinton camp were conjuring up the collusion story to explain their loss and maybe reverse it.

So this whole collusion story was a deflection to try to hide their own illegal activities. And now those chickens are coming home to roost.

As to the SR's of this world...well they just so wanted it to be true that they bought it without too much, or any, real thought. They thought it oh so clever to pronounce that Trump was beholden to Putin (Putin's puppet) and to see all international affairs through that prism, while mocking those who didn't fall for the lie as being naive.

Now that the truth is out, the less honest among them are running for cover. Some have the balls to admit and accept error. Others like SR are prepared to play the fool rather than be adult about their naivety. As I said, its pretty pathetic. But we all now know that not only is SR prone to being led down the garden path but he's happy to be there while denying he was there when it is no longer tenable ie someone to ignore and too ignorant to bother with.

mhaze,

I am surprised at your professed
inside "knowledge" of American
politics. However my advice to you would be to
have a read of the following link.
It answers some of the key
questions of the "Trump-Russia affair".
Including the arrests made thus far.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42493918

Warning warning *deepstate* term that explains its user has no idea about truth
See another celebrity has considered throwing her hat in the ring, for Trump's Job
Why not? the B grade movie that is that country's politics has had many script rewrites

Foxy,

I'm not claiming insider knowledge. I might know more about the issue in particular and politics (eg how the electoral college works) in general than many here, but only because I read a wider variety of data. I'd encourage you to do likewise (oh I forgot, you decided that wasn't necessary). But there's nothing in what I've written that isn't already available in print.

So your BBC article contains nothing the slightest bit new. Like most BBC information, it is generally correct and yet biased in what it leaves out. And there'e much that this article leaves out. But I'd doubt you'd be interested in that.

Still I'll mention a couple of things:

* Under the section about the dossier they imply that it was originally paid for by Republicans. But that's not true.

* They fail to point out that the dossier hasn't been verified at all, that it was partially based on an 8 year old CNN gossip blog and that Steele was dropped by the FBI as a source because he was unreliable.

* They correctly say that Flynn and Sessions "had contact with Russians" but fail to point out that this was part of their job and none of those meetings were clandestine.

* They fail to point out that none of those charged were charged as part of their work in the campaign. ie no one has been charged with colluding or conspiring with Russia in regards to the election.

There's much more wrong with your article but I'm sure your bored by now.

_______________________________________________________________

More evidence on how SR fell for the myth ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8485#267974

The post starts off.."Oh I am loving this.". I suspect he's not loving it now, but, being SR he'll deny that.

mhaze,

I wonder whether you'll ever admit any of your mistakes -
including your supposed knowledge regarding the
electoral college which many experts in the US say needs
to be changed because it is outdated and no longer
functions as it should. But that's a different story.

I find that your views are biased as hell - and you
definitely won't accept any other views that are contrary to
your political beliefs. Therefore your finger-pointing at
others, including me, as to being biased - is absurd
when you are the height of narrow-mindedness in whatever
disagrees with your rigid and narrow-minded point of view.
I had always assumed that you had some semblance of
intelligence - but your views indicate otherwise - especially
your support of Trump to the extreme.

Anyway, I'm passed caring. To me you now fit into the same
category as some of the other soft-brains on this forum.
Not worth worrying about or arguing with.

Dear mhaze,

You write; “I might know more about the issue in particular”

Bunkum, you patently do not. You have kept rabbiting on about collusion when the issue was one of conspiracy even though I have gone to innumerable lengths to explain the difference to you.

You fell for the collusion myth hook line and sinker and now you are trying to slither your way out of it.

Look, there might not be a huge shame in being duped by Trump because it turns out so many others are in the same boat. But to be attacking those who haven't fallen for his 'charms' is a bit ludicrous.

And why do you keep flagging past posts of mine when they do not show any assertion that Trump was likely to be indicted for conspiracy? Go do a proper job for once and find something relevant if you are able.

Unless you can you are flogging a very dead nag and we all probably have something better to do with our time.

Trump and those supporting/believing him are a joy
Pure fun watching them twist and turn ignoring he is a rather dull self promoting lie teller
Fun stuff, and knowing in the end he will be uncovered for what he is helps too

Foxy,

"electoral college which many experts in the US say needs
to be changed because it is outdated and no longer
functions as it should. "

Yes I'll warrant many do. And many say the opposite. But they all say it from the stand-point of knowing how the EC works, unlike some who shall remain nameless.

"I had always assumed that you had some semblance of
intelligence ."

You should always go with your first instincts Foxy. :)

I notice that you get very triggered when I don't simply accept all your views and all your errors as beyond reproach. But pointing out bias isn't necessarily bias. Although I do have a bias toward the truth.

Speaking of which..."other soft-brains on this forum." Far be it from me to trigger you any further. But my bias to the truth requires me to point out that all brains are soft

"Anyway, I'm passed caring."

So you keep saying.

________________________________________________________________

SR,

Good to see you hanging in there, SR. Keep this up and you might even convince yourself (but only yourself).

Just for fun, I checked the NYT. They used the term 'collusion' over 20000 times in regards to Trump/Mueller. But then they didn't realise that the dills who fell for the myth needed hide their monumental error by pretending there is a semantic difference between the terms.

"And why do you keep flagging past posts of mine..."

Again, nice try. But I didn't say you thought he'd be indicted. I did say you'd fallen for the myth that he was Putin's puppet. See the difference? Maybe not.

Honestly, wouldn't it have been easier to go down the Belly path and own up and own the error. Or you could have gone down the path chosen by Brennan and blame bad sources. That's what I was trying to get Foxy to do.

In the end, the attempted soft coup is the biggest story so far this century although it may become bigger still. I guess many on the left just can't bring themselves to acknowledge they were duped by those they trusted

Dear mhaze,

I am convinced Trump and Rudi propagated a collusion myth but you are resolutely a believer in it.

You claim; "But I didn't say you thought he'd be indicted. I did say you'd fallen for the myth that he was Putin's puppet."

It is pretty well accepted by everyone that Trump treats Putin with a kid glove. This is why headlines like this keep appearing;

"The House of Representatives voted overwhelmingly on Thursday to block the Trump administration from lifting sanctions on a Russian oligarch with deep ties to Vladimir Putin."

Tell you what though, Russia is pouring in troops and equipment into Venezuela and Trump say he wants them out. If they leave by the end of the month I will say he is no longer Putin's puppet.

Let's see how it goes.

mhaze,

I'm glad that you agree that gibbering morons do
have "soft brains."

Never bothered a link to this mornings new some in Mueller's team are upset with Barrs release
Why bother, fixed minds do not change
It is America
You never know what you can trust, out of any mouth from that country
We will hear much more but even then in a country that has mastered propaganda maybe not the whole truth

'It is America
You never know what you can trust, out of any mouth from that country'

Dear Belly,

That, of course, is very unlike Australia.

David, sorry no country can be trusted less than Trumps America , in my view

Foxy:"I'm glad that you agree that gibbering morons do have "soft brains."

Yes as do towering geniuses. The trick is being able to discern the difference. Hint: those who fell for the collusion myth don't fall into the latter category.

SR,

Oh dear. I asked you a few days ago to provide examples of "Nearly every action regarding Russia even before he became president illustrates how beholden he is to him".

And this is the best you can come up with? That the Russians are in Venezuela and Trump hasn't removed them yet? What a sorry state your theories are in if this is the best you can muster.

Russia's helping Maduro therefore Putin owns Trump?
Well China's helping Maduro...does that mean Xi owns Trump?
And Cuba's helping Maduro...does that mean Castro owns Trump?

Seriously, how desperate can you get.

If Trump really wanted to help Putin in Venezuela, then he'd lift the sanctions he's imposed.

What exactly do you propose Trump should do to resolve the Venezuela problem? Invade? Isn't it strange how all those who said, during the campaign, Trump was a war-monger and would start WW3 keep getting upset that he won't start any wars.

Look, Russia's economy is hurting badly because of the low oil price. They need it above $100 just to stabilise the decline. If Trump was truly in the can for Putin, he'd be reducing US oil output and forcing an oil price rise. But he's doing the opposite in encouraging more fracking, building more pipelines, building export facilities and encouraging places like Poland to buy US energy and break away from dependence on Russia.

He doesn't do those things because he isn't "Putin's puppet". Its not really hard to follow once you stop suffering from TDS.

Here's the link to the quote SR mentioned in his last post...http://newsprod.abs-cbnnews.com/overseas/01/18/19/house-republicans-join-rebuke-of-trump-for-easing-russia-sanctions

If you read the article you'll see why SR hide the link.

Take it as a given that when someone quotes from an article but doesn't offer the link, they are hiding something.

Dear Belly,

Sorry mate but will have to get you to clarify that at little.

Are you talking about the Trump administration rather than Americans as a whole?

The same country that produced Trump has also produced Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a spirited, passionate spokesperson for a new generation.

There are many countries around the world where those in power are patently more untruthful than the Trump administration.

Just a warning people, the link that mhaze has provided has been flagged as containing malicious software. It is not a direct CBS link.

The article I quoted from is a Politico one and can be found at http://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/17/house-rebukes-trump-russia-sanctions-1108939

There is absolutely nothing in the article which contradicts the obvious, that Trump is looking to get a mate of Putin off the hook against the wishes of the majority of those elected members.

Dear mhaze,

Come on mate now you are just flailing around with very little coherency at all. This is no fun if you can't pull a decent argument together.

I raised the issue of Trump trying to make sure Putin's mates are free from sanctions even though the Democrats and a large chunk of Republicans disagree. You then ignored this as obvious evidence of Trump trying to look after his mate Putin and instead went to my later point about Venezuela.

You are either being deliberately disingenuous or you are badly rattled. I suspect it is the latter.

How about you smarted up and have a proper crack at defending your position as untenable as it may be.

And I repeat it is conspiracy not collusion so enough with the myth you are propagating for your president.

mhaze,

Some brains are softer than others - they're mush.
Thinking people are discerning enough to tell the
difference. In America today - under President
Trump the Republican party is unrecognisable.
It's gone from a party of persuasion to a party
of incitement. Hopefully at the next election
they will throw the bum out. (as David F., suggested).
Fingers crossed that Joe Biden does stand for office.

So I guess SR has given up argument and no just relies on innuendo and obfuscation. When arguing with SR, that's were it always ends up.

So if my views have " little coherency at all" then why don't you explain how Trump's energy policies are helpful in solving Putin's single biggest. Why don't you explain what you expect Trump to do about Venezuela. Why don't you explain how Russians helping Maduro is different to Chinese and Cubans helping Maduro.

As to the article you mentioned, all I could do was use the quote you gave to find it. And I did. That it exists elsewhere is hardly surprising. My AV doesn't flag it. But anyone who reads the article and understands it (ie not you apparently) can see that the resolution failed in Congress and can also see why it failed and that the sanctions being lifted wasn't initiated by Trump but by Treasury. And if you read other articles about the issue, you'd know that the why the sanctions on this one man are no longer valid.

But its all SR misunderstanding pretty much everything. Sanctions on Russia are causing havoc to their economy. If Trump was in the can for Putin, they'd all be lifted, not just those on one inconsequential individual.

But Sr will continue to ignore the facts because they aren't what he wants them to be.

_____________________________________________________________

Foxy, I also hope Biden runs.

http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/436816-joe-bidens-2020-ukrainian-nightmare-a-closed-probe-is-revived

http://legalinsurrection.com/2019/04/and-then-there-were-seven-three-more-women-come-complaining-about-creepy-encounters-with-joe-biden/

I guess your impeccable sources forgot to keep you appraised of these little problems.

mhaze,

My impeccable sources?

Why - Thank You. How kind of you and so very
generous considering your penchant for
strongly biased conservative right-wing sources
through story selection and political
affiliations.

I especially noted your use
of the link of "legal insurrection". A
conservative blog created by William A. Jacobson
who uses a good deal of loaded language in his
headlines and within his articles. His
articles/comments are mainly from right-wing sources
and bloggers giving their conservative opinions on
current views.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.

Each to their own.

I do read "The Hill" and cite from it as well.
And yes, I was familiar
with the former Vice President's aggressive push for
years, both publicly with groups like the US Ukrainian
Business Forum, and privately in meetings with
Ukrainian Leaders, for Ukraine to make every effort to
investigate and prosecute corruption in accordance
with the rule of law.

Now back to former Vice President Joe Biden.
I've recently read the book, "Promise Me Dad,"
about the death of his son from a brain tumour.
That man has been through so much much in his life.
Anyway, I would so like to see him run for office.
To have stability and decency brought back to the
US.

But of course realistically, it's up to the Democrats to
decide before they go overboard in shifting their
finances and organisational resources, as well as endorsements
to the former Vice President - they need to decide
and have a long and hard think about whether they want
the face of their party to be someone who represents the
past ... or the future.

Heard Trump, early am, American TV broadcast here
His words came out weirdly switching from subject to subject
Not sure if he ever fronts a court he will not be able to use the dementia defense
What then of those who support him
China and Russia must love the guy he has taken America into uncharted waters even its friends do not know what comes next

The link that mhaze posted was from a news scraping site in the Philippines. It did not acknowledge the Politico source. Be careful with it.

Dear mhaze,

Ho hum. You really are a shill for the bloke aren't you.

When the US intelligence agencies confirmed that Russia had meddled in the US elections Trump staunchly defended Putin saying of Putin;

“He said he didn’t meddle. He said he didn’t meddle. I asked him again. You can only ask so many times, every time he sees me, he says, ‘I didn’t do that', and I believe — I really believe that when he tells me that, he means it.”

Why do you think that was?

The link that mhaze posted was from a news scraping site in the Philippines. It did not acknowledge the Politico source. Be careful with it.

Dear mhaze,

Ho hum.

When the US intelligence agencies confirmed that Russia had meddled in the US elections Trump staunchly defended Putin saying of Putin;

“He said he didn’t meddle. He said he didn’t meddle. I asked him again. You can only ask so many times, every time he sees me, he says, ‘I didn’t do that', and I believe — I really believe that when he tells me that, he means it.”

Why do you think that was?

A counter view of Trump. He's a world leader. Specifically the president of the US. Nothing more (giving Trump credit for what he hasn't done yet), nothing less (not acknowledging him for the position he holds or for what he has done while there).

I've watched the public in the US be divided over Trump so much. It's a sad thing to watch. Some see what he's done well, or give him credit for things they hope for, such as the tag line to make America great again. It's a hope that they believe Trump is moving in that direction. On the other divide, some people see Trump for every character flaw that can be put on his shoulders. The amount of dedication to show any flaw, and even try to spark new ones, brings Trump to not just a president to agree or disagree with, but a president to love or hate. The part about hating him is a focused market with a spotlight and loads of attention. It is something to be wary from, as is anything that has a market for it is something to be wary about for whether it's true, or a misrepresentation.

The divide within the US over it's president is bad enough without considering a market devoted to hating him and making a rupture of the citizens of the US over it's leader.

(Continued)

(Continued)

In spite of that, what good does the hate or the support for Trump do for Australia? Think about this carefully. There's a market there somewhere to entice a demographic that hates anything Trump can stand for (regardless if it's true or not), as well as a demographic that sees Trump as a hero against .... Well any level of political and PC rubbish that is worth removing and leaving in the trash. (Again regardless if there is merit to it or not).

For Australia, Trump is a marketable icon for either a political stance (for or against, just as divided), or a marketable distraction against other issues and watering down the issues of politics to either wish for someone as good as Trump (from one demographic); or watering down the issues by saying at least __________ politician isn't as bad as Trump (from the other demographic divide).
.....
A side note to Davidf. My comment in this thread is an observational experiment as well as a point about the topic. I'm hoping you don't start something by my just being here. If you do though. Message received. I'll keep the distance we've had from going into similar discussions. That has worked well so far since it seems we both decided on our own to avoid the other. If we don't go down that same path (regardless of knowing we will not agree on almost anything) then I'll see that as potentially a good sign. Either way, I wish you well, and for my part in the past apologize for my actions directed directly to you instead of directed at the topics.

We are heading in to the election, some convinced being the Ostrich in the room will deliver victory
It will not
Pro Trump people are, here and in America ,an embarrassing minority
He is an imbaressment
Had his actions been Obama's, the very people trying to defend him would scream for his head
A day seemingly will come, when such people open their arms in welcome, to total dictatorship, they have lost any interest in honest politics

Foxy,

Wow, THAT's what you took from this. That, when Biden used the threat of withdrawal of US aid unless they sacked a prosecutor who was looking into the legality of how a company was paying his son a sizeable stipend for less than obvious reasons, it was part of his of his push "for Ukraine to make every effort to investigate and prosecute corruption in accordance with the rule of law."

Wow...but it'll be interesting to see if compliant media in the US will be able to pull that one off. That they'll try to hid Biden's corruption is a given.

As to the sexual accusations, it really shouldn't matter who writes about them.Whether it was the archangel Gabriel or Satan himself doesn't change the fact that women are coming forward to complain about Biden's behaviour. But if you need an excuse to ignore something you so badly want to ignore, then that's as good(or bad) a reason as any.

I'll be interested to see how you ignore this then....

http://pjmedia.com/trending/metoo-founder-biden-joking-about-allegations-disrespectful-and-inexcusable

SR,

Well if you hadn't tried to hide the article because it said things you didn't like then I wouldn't have had to go and find it for myself.

I notice that you've dropped your Venezuela idiocy. And won't go within cooee of the oil issue I raised.

But now your back on other minutia. Trump says he believes Putin when he says he didn't interfere. Oh, say the idiots, that proves he's Putin's puppet.

Anyone going down that line shows they have no understanding of relationships between governments. Trump needs to keep good relations with Russia (and China and Germany and Upper Kumbackta West). Outright calling a leader a liar doesn't do it, especially without any evidence.

But the historically ignorant won't understand that.

Dear NNS,

Welcome to the thread. We need neither to embrace nor avoid each other. Let the past bury the past.

Disagreements are the life of discussion. May we recognize the humanity in each other.

When can we expect all those apologies to come rushing in following the complete scotching of the Democrats' lies about Trump and the Russians?

mhaze,

Again you continue to give us links from American
conservative sites. Wow indeed!

The women who have come forward to speak about
the former Vice President's past behaviour have all
stressed that his behaviour was not sexual in
any shape or form. Merely that it was "inappropriate,"
by today's standards and made them feeling "uncomfortable."
He gave them a kiss - not grabbed their genitalia

He has apologised - if he's caused any offence to
anyone - saying that he will pay more
attention to what is considered "appropriate" in today's
world.

Other witnesses have stressed - the former VP
has always been a tactile sort of person - giving hugs
and kisses freely. However, nothing untoward was ever
intended - and to suggest otherwise - is playing
cheap politics.

The same however can't be said for the past behaviour
towards women by the current US President. Who's apparently
quite proud and has bragged about grabbing women by their
"pussies."

As far as the former VP's son - Hunter and his company
connections are concerned? Hunter B. is a private
citizen and a lawyer. And quite capable of taking care
of himself and answering questions. Which I'm sure that
they will come up if his father chooses to run for office.
Politics is after all a blood sport as we know.

However I shall repeat that the former VP has pushed
aggressively for years both publicly with groups in
the US Ukrainian Business Forum and privately in
meetings with Ukrainian Leaders, for Ukraine to make
every effort to investigate and prosecute corruption in
accordance with the rule of law. That's no small feat
considering that Ukrainian President is one of the most
prominent Ukrainian oligarchs.

One final request for you. Kindly don't give me any
more links from American conservative sites. I'm
not interested in their strongly biased story selections,
political affiliations, and loaded language in their
headlines and articles. Their comments are from right-wing
sources and bloggers giving narrow opinions on
current news. Very narrow and limited perspectives with
questionable facts.

Dear mhaze,

You write; “I notice that you've dropped your Venezuela idiocy.”

What? Where did I do that? I have said we will see what will happen by the end of the month. And if the Russians start landing nuclear bombers in the country? Would this be a line too far for you?

And what lame excuse are you trying to float? That Trump needs to play the diplomatic game which is why he sought, against the vast majority of the democratically elected House, to ease sanctions on one of Putin's corrupt oligarchs.

If that was true then all he needed to do was not raise the issue with Putin and just take it as a given hat he was involved. Yours is actually the type of excuse that the Russian gave for the poisoning of the dissident and his daughter in England. 'It was rouge elements within the Russian secret services and Putin knew nothing'. No body except perhaps yourself actually believes this.

Time to grow up and engage the brain.

Now mate, you got your facts wrong on collusion and conspiracy and then tried to double down on it which not made you look very foolish but also made it very easy for me. Contrary to what you may think I do prefer to earn my wins not have them handed to me on a silver platter. I hope you have learnt a valuable lesson and you do some homework before swaggering in here claiming all sorts of things for your president.

We have had some solid exchanges in the past, some of which have been quite enjoyable but this was not your finest hour. Over the top triumphalism which you displayed more often than not predicates a fall and this went true to form. I'm sure you will bounce back though.

“Time to grow up and engage the brain”, says SR. That coming from one of the brain dead UN & EU quoting fools is a bit rich.

Perhaps SR has had an actual thought of his own at some time, but you can bet it was very quickly suppressed, all appearance of thought has to be as dictated by his socialist masters.

When you think about it becomes obvious. All these lefties are in lock step on everything. They can’t have opinions of their own, no group could ever actually agree on every part of life, unless 1984 like, they are behaving as directed by their masters.

You see them come & go, under different names of course. Could they be given a direction to be the lefty mouth piece on OLO for 6 months, as penance for having once had a personal thought, outside the group think.

No group could march in such perfect unison, unless singing, as directed, from the same hymn book. I wonder which will be first to have finished their penance & move on this time?

Steel Redux it seems to me you are a balanced poster, may well not like me but in truth the junk thrown at you is weird stuff
Having a different opinion is your crime, if only you would fall in line with the post above and below yours
Hope you never ever do
Being different is in my view something to be proud of
The walking talking wreckage that is Donald Trump, like some comments here, has no relation to truth

Dear Hasbeen,

Good to hear from you old cock. Bit of a Sunday rant is always jack dandy for the constitution.

So I'm trying to get my head around one of the truculent climate change denying clique on OLO lecturing other posters about group think.

Mate there is nothing that speaks to the notion of group think that the wilfully denial of widely accepted science by a bunch of ideologues.

Somethings are self evident, like that the world is round, yet we have a growing group of people who take a contrary view. It is not those who know the earth is a sphere rather than a disc who are engaging in group think but rather the flat earthers.

In fact you could be regarded as a poster boy for the 'group think' movement.

Dear Belly,

I don't have an issue with you at all mate. Those I do I just ignore, pretty easy really. Don't even read their posts.

Posters like mhaze can often get me to delve more deeply into topics to defend a position but admittedly he has lost a bit of balance of late so the exchanges aren't as meaty, pity.

And blokes like Hasbeen are part of the furniture. He represents everyone's permanently pissed off uncle. Good for a quick spar on occasions but too set in his ways to make a more fulsome effort over and he does get pretty repetitive. Just look at his last post; “Lefties”, “lefty”, “socialists”, “1984” etc. There was a time when he would come up with something original to throw back but those days are but a dim memory.

This place certainly was a more collegiate in the past but identity politics laid waste to all that.

The era of the smug blustering and posturing by Abbott's almost totally male supporters saw a lot of really good posters move on. I've stuck around because tweaking their noses is fun and you know you are doing your job when they have a crack at you in a personal manner. No sheep stations here though so all generally goes through to the keeper.

As for me being different in my extended family of let's say over 100 people we have probably 3 climate deniers, 3 antivaxxers, 2 moonlandings were a hoax types, and 4 who constantly bang on with openly anti-Islamic clap trap.

The thing is most of these overlap so there really are only 6 or 7 people out of the 100 who are outliers. The rest of us are pretty normal. So I'm interested why you think I am different.

To Belly.

I don't think trump supporters are a small minority as you've suggested. Instead I would say that Trump is showing his merit enough times to give him a second or third glance without the lenses of the media witch hunt on him.

Let me explain. First issue was Trump's character as a whole and what he says. The worry? That having him as president will start WWIII with the aggressive world powers. Instead of entering new wars Trump's "character flaws" seem to be the closest to successfully talk with North Korea. And his record on military action shows he's not trying to start any new wars, but also won't stand on the sidelines and do nothing. Such as when Syria used chemical weapons on it's people in their civil war, Trump did what no other nation did. He acted militarily on Syria on one single and direct hit to say that the chemical warfare is not going to be tolerated. Since then, Trump seems to be trying to get the US to a position to withdraw more of it's troops instead of going to more locations.

Trump has also recognized Israel's capital and seems to be closer to finding a real solution to the Israel/Palestine civil war, by stoping the ridiculous 2 state solution that is ignored by the Palestinians and the surrounding Islamic countries. (They repeatedly say they only want one state and to destroy Israel. Somehow that never gets acknowledged when a two state approach is recommended. Funny huh).

(Continued)

(Continued)

In the US. Trump's politics has rarely ever been the reason to hate him, instead the focus is on him as a person, with an occasional spotlight on policies. So far though, any accusations thrown at him, nothing's stuck. As for the politics side, what he's done so far seems to show a good report for him. Even with the struggles with congress, it seems no recent president has done anything without a power struggle with congress in one way or another. So Trump's approach to a wall, seems no different then Obama's force on congress about healthcare reform.

Nothing outside of hating his personality seems to be the drive to continue the witch hunt against Trump. All of this and a few more things as his progress as the president are enough to withdraw from the screaming front lines of hate that the media and the news has drawn up for Trump. People might not like him, but so far, he seems to actually care about the American people and about the country. That should matter way more then not liking his character and personality.

As for you though. I have to ask. (You or anyone else). What good is it to focus on Trump and hate him for what he is? (Or what is accused of him). What good comes out of that? For Australia to have just as much anti Trump focus as the media in the US should send up a red flag. Something is wrong with that, and someone is being played.

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

What a load of trollop.

You wrote;

“Trump has also recognized Israel's capital and seems to be closer to finding a real solution to the Israel/Palestine civil war, by stoping the ridiculous 2 state solution that is ignored by the Palestinians and the surrounding Islamic countries.”

How in the hell does building thousands of homes in illegal settlements through the occupied territories advance a solution to the conflict?

It is only 'ridiculous' because the Israelis have so determinately flouted international law and UN resolution after resolution in what appears to be a successful attempt of stealing great swathes of land and brutalising hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, all with your acquiescence by the looks.

The Australia I grew up in knew who the bullies were and who was the under dog. It is people like you who seem to have brought into the whole lie about what is going on there and try to make the country with the 7th largest military force in the world appear to be the victim.

Now tell me the three best things you reckon Trump has achieved and let's see how they hold up to the smallest degree of scrutiny from someone without your rose coloured glasses.

Dear NNS,

Although I find Trump despicable as a person you may note that the post with which I opened this thread focussed largely on his policies. I find him unfit to be president. Healthcare reform is an instance of genuine caring. It was a step to providing universal medicare such as exists in the UK and Australia. Trump has made statements about the people fleeing to the US being rapists and criminals. There is not an equivalence between building a wall and healthcare. The people fleeing to the US are apparently fleeing intolerable conditions. However, the US cannot absorb everyone who wants to come to the US. There is a problem, but it is not solved by demonising those who want to come to the US.

Although the stock market is doing well wages are not keeping up with profits, and there is great inequity in wealth. IMHO genuine caring would try to relieve some of the inequity. There have been many killings of unarmed black men by trigger happy policemen. Trump's anger has been directed as the black athletes who have protested by taking a knee. He has been quoted as saying, "Get the son of a bitch off the field." John Howard reacted to the mass shooting in Port Arthur by instituting gun control in Australia. The mass shootings in the USA continue, and Trump does nothing. He doesn't seem to care.

Dear NNS,

I agree that the two state solution is ridiculous. Israel cannot be both a democracy and a Jewish state. A democracy should have civil marriage, an integrated public school system and separation of religion and state. Israel should be one state with genuine equality among all of its citizens. I think that goes for Australia also. Taxpayers should not be funding religious schools. If parents want such institutions they or their religious organization should pay the cost.

About 80% of American Jews vote democratic. They may like Israel, but that is not their chief concern. In general they want separation of religion and state. Many of Trump’s fundamentalist Christian followers would tear down the separation. As an American I treasure the separation and revere Roger Williams, a Baptist minister, whose colony of Rhode Island was the first political unit which had separation of church and state in its law.

From “Roger Williams and The Creation of the American Soul

"The [Massachusetts]Bay's leaders, both lay and clergy, firmly believed that the state must enforce all of God's laws, and to do so the state had to prevent error in religion. This conviction they held fast to, for their souls and all the souls in Massachusetts plantation depended upon it.

Williams recognized that putting the state to that service required humans to interpret God's law. His views were not fully formed-how Massachusetts dealt with him would itself influence their formulation-but he believed that humans, being imperfect, would inevitably err in applying God's law. Hence, he concluded that a society built on the principles that Massachusetts espoused could at best only lead to hypocrisy, for he believed that forced worship "stinks in God's nostrils." At worst it would lead to a corruption not of the state which was already corrupt, but of the church, as it befouled itself with the state's errors. His understandings were edging him toward a belief he would later call "Soul Libertie."" pp. 3-4

James Madison was influential in getting ‘no religious test for office’ and the First Amendment in the US Constitution.

To David f.

Since you're a duel citizen of both Australia and the US. Your positions on Trump make more sense. Having an investment of interest and concern for the US makes sense. But the topic has become much more then that for those who aren't American with just as much distaste for Trump as the US media has for him. In my opinion that doesn't add up. I don't see nearly as much focus on any other world leader that isn't Australian, as I've seen put on Trump.

To SteelRedux. You said:

<<Now tell me the three best things you reckon Trump has achieved and let's see how they hold up to the smallest degree of scrutiny from someone without your rose coloured glasses.>>

Why should I? I honestly don't see why Trump is put under this much scrutiny, and is a likely topic to be put in any other topic, when no other world leader has received the same notice. Call it rose colored if you like, but I'm calling it out for what I'm noticing. Trump as a president is an American concern that has become a focus of the world concern. None of the leaders of Israel/Palestine, Syria, Russia, China, or even North Korea has been given the same attention. Surely there are actual crimes against the population and the citizens in other countries that would place them as a higher mark of distaste then what Trump has done. There is something more then rose colored glasses on me, but a focus on Trump from a growing negative bias against Trump. My question to Belly, can be asked to you too. What good does it do for Australia to focus this much hate towards Trump? My best guess is there's a reason for this much focus, but it's not a good reason. More likely the population can be played by making Trump the focus.

There is no necessity to hate Trump. I wish him a happy and fulfilled life, but I think he has no business being president of my country. In some venues in Australia political contributions from real estate developers are banned. The relation between real estate developers and corruption is recognized. Not all real estate developers are corrupt, but there is a great temptation for real estate developers to make political contributions in hopes of getting favorable treatment in zoning and other matters. Trump refuses to release his income tax returns as other public officials have. Apparently he doesn’t want the scrutiny. Other high officials have accepted the scrutiny as a necessary price for holding office, but Trump refuses to be accountable.

To David F.

Regarding the politics, I'll say I've got mixed views on several of them. But not enough to the degree to say that Trump is the worse president ever, or to dive into an already divided and continually split culture war on him.

Regarding gun control, Trump stood against the bump stock gun adaption that turn semiautomatic guns into automatic guns. For whatever reason the NRA is for supporting that kind of mass slaughter upgrade. Trump's stance on gun control is one that many people (and politicians) have held in the US. Gun control and gun rights is political issue that has much support on both sides. I don't see a solution over all in the near future, regardless if Trump is president or not.

Just about every political issue you posted about Trump has two sides battling it out on each issue. But Trump hasn't abused any power that I am aware of to harm the citizens of the US, outside of opening his mouth and offending those that will get offended.

I'm not aware of a restriction on campaigning for president or becoming president based on a person's career choice. Heck the US even had an actor become president. Though I have no knowledge of Reagan's acting career.

(Continued)

(Continued)

Regarding the separation of religion and state. I don't think that I've seen anything to force Christian worship on the population. Instead what I do see is that religion isn't banned from being openly practiced even within the Oval Office. If Trump is a Christian, shouldn't he be allowed to practice his faith, even to have his own prayer meetings or bible studies? These could be stunts to gain certain political support from a demographic in the US. Regardless if it is or isn't, shouldn't the freedom to openly express your faith also be a right that the president has?

In my opinion if religion doesn't affect a person's behavior in all parts of their life, then they don't really believe in that religion, but instead only follow it half heartedly (when it suits them) and then play by a different set of rules in the rest of the world. The scope of separate on of church and state has gone away from just removing hypocrisy and corruption; instead has become means to silence religion in the life of anyone in a government paid office. This includes local offices, schools, and most anywhere else. Don't talk about religion, don't express religion, don't practice religion if you are in a wide variety of jobs. There is no freedom of religion under such a schem. (But as has been observed by a few others, this only applies to Christians. Seperation of church and state doesn't apply to other religions).

NNS at some time in the future we may well consider with unbiased eyes all religions
Find me another reason humanity is so divided
Look at the insanity of the extremes of Islam, no not the average
Tell me how so many Christians, notable the Catholic Church, sexualy assualted children in their care
A future world would benefit from such a review maybe inventing one God
Ot not one at all, but until that takes place we dare not ignore mens relationship with God, and what God that is

It has been a long hard fight for women to have access to safe and legal abortion in the US. Trump is funding anti-abortion clinics.

https://www.scarymommy.com/trump-fund-anti-abortion-crisis-pregnancy/

“On Friday, the Trump Administration announced it will award a $1.7 million grant to a chain of anti-abortion, crisis pregnancy centers. These centers not only oppose abortion, but they don’t offer contraceptives to pregnant patients. All of this will occur while the administration will still cut funds to Planned Parenthood affiliates across the country.”

The anti-abortion centres are Catholic sponsored.

Christianity has been definitely favored. One of the many instances is the providing of clergy to the condemned.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/kagan-in-supreme-court-says-condemned-jews-and-muslims-need-choice-of-clergy/

“In a dissent to a ruling which allowed Alabama to execute a Muslim without an imam by his side, Justice Elena Kagan said denying condemned persons their clergy of choice, whether they be Jewish or Muslim, was unconstitutional.

Of course any public official may make what religious observances he or she cares to in private life. However, the official should not use public office for such observances. The Christian prayer breakfasts that Trump hosts in the oval office are a violation of the separation.

http://time.com/4658012/donald-trump-national-prayer-breakfast-transcript/

“President Trump spoke at the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington, D.C., drawing attention for joking remarks that the audience should pray for Arnold Schwarzenegger’s ratings on “The Apprentice.”

The speech was Trump’s first at the annual religious gathering, though he joked that he would like “to be here seven more times with you.”

He also pledged to repeal the Johnson Amendment, an IRS rule barring pastors from endorsing candidates from the pulpit.

“I will get rid of and totally destroy the Johnson Amendment and allow our representatives of faith to speak freely and without fear of retribution,” he said.”

The Johnson Amendment denies tax exemption to churches whose clergy endorse candidates from the pulpit. Other organizations may not endorse candidates and get tax exemption. I see no reason that churches should be exempt from that.

Under Trump Christianity is favoured. With separation of religion and state no religion should be favoured or suppressed. The state should be neutral.

Dear NNS,

I'm wondering how supportive you are of this?

"Congressional anger is growing over President Trump’s efforts to secure a nuclear energy deal with Saudi Arabia.

Lawmakers first became wary of the plans when the Saudis refused to accept limits preventing them from developing a nuclear weapon.

But that skepticism quickly turned to fury when it was revealed that the Trump administration gave approval for companies to share certain nuclear energy technology with the kingdom without a broader nuclear deal in place.

Lawmakers are now demanding answers."

http://thehill.com/policy/international/437649-secrecy-behind-saudi-nuclear-talks-infuriates-congress

What do you think of the country which spawned virtually all of the 911 hijackers and which exports an extreme form of Islamic Fundamentalism being enabled by Trump to walk the nuclear path? I'm interested to see how you and others spin this.

Trump is willing to forgive any one and any thing to improve his and Americas financial position
His ignoring the very real threat the Saudi Arabians are is dangerous

Belly,

"Find me another reason humanity is so divided".

How about politics, skin colour and languages for three?

To David F.

Trump is creating family clinics that aren't abortion clinics? That's great news. Especially after the news that New York expanded legal abortions through to full term. The hard fought battle against abortion needs to take place.

For Christianity being favored, I have another take on the matter as well. Several years ago the city I lived in put up holiday decorations during Christmas season. They had been doing this as long as I can remember. However one year someone wanted other holiday decorations to be put up in the same season to show Jewish culture in the holiday as well. The result, when this opportunity arose to be open to diversity and welcome to more culture, the decision to remove the Christian themed decorations and replace it with winter holiday decorations that represented no religion and holds no culture.

Disappointing as that is the decision makes some sense finically. It is easier to remove all religious affiliation rather then spend more money to include other religious decorations and try to represent all of them that had someone in the community belong to any given belief system. Essentially if the demand is equal treatment on things that will cost the city/state more money to have then one likely result be in the name of equality and fairness to take away something from the religions that have cultural roots there. Regardless of the reasons it's my observation that equality of religion when it comes to city/state funded activities, it can result instead of equality and being allowed equally, it results in equally being suppressed and removed.

(Continued)

(Continued)

Want another solution for the Muslim on death row? Supply the resources that are being demanded, and just ask that they be allowed for the one facing death. Basically instead of a lawyer making demands there could be the Islamic community trying to put a service in that the Christian community has forged in that area to supply and place on their own.

For the same reasons I gave earlier about religion being part of a person's life as a whole, I reject the whole idea that a person's faith should be private only, and not allowed in the public sphere. With that in mind as long as Trump is not forcing his beliefs on anyone else during his prayer breakfast (no one is forced to come or required to believe) then I am glad that that the prayer breakfast is there.

As for the campaign, I'm not surprised by this. The changes through several presidents now have made it easier to contribute to a candidate, instead of limiting the campaign contributions like the laws had at one time. Regardless if clergy is involved or not, this is a troubling aspect of changes. The good part of it is that preachers and pastors can talk about politics openly if they desire, instead of being restricted on the parts that the bible has a stance about a political issue.

To Belly.

If you want to look at religion through unbiased eyes, then don't wait for the future for this to be able to happen. Do it yourself and do it today. (But of course in order to do this you have to not be biased yourself. Meaning that you can't already assume that they are false and made up when you look into them).

As for other issues that divide people up? How about identity politics, continual divisions between the rich and the poor, drugs and addictions that harm and destroy communities and families. Or if you want a general observation. Consider any job that has multiple shifts as part of it's staff and crews. There is always issues between shifts that get placed in the work environments even if the company tries to stress "we're all on the same team." You can try to blame religion for divisions in humanity, but even when it's not wanted, people make divisions on their own. That's part of our broken nature more then it is that religions say different things then each other and obviously don't share the same beliefs.

To SteelRedux.

Am I a spokesperson now that I have to answer for the decisions made by my government? No, I can't agree with everything that happens, and this is true regardless who is president. That doesn't mean to jump ship and join a militia or some such thing. The divisiveness that has happened in the US over it's president's has grown for several presidents now over the years. How bad the divide is for Trump and the media franchising on hating him is a few notches worse then it was before.

That this hate for a US president is spilling over to Australian culture should worry you a bit. Especially since you weren't able to answer the question I gave you earlier. Why is the focus on Trump so much that He can be brought into any topic on OLO in some way or another? What good does this do? What purpose does this serve? And why Trump instead of some other world leader that has actually committed a crime against their people, (or mass killed their own people in a civil war?). Think hard on this, if you come up with an answer outside of Australians being played and cultural manipulation, I'd like to hear it.

NNS find your posts interesting but maybe we should come up with methods for a better world, some future date it is almost sure, a one God will be imposed on humanity
We get past the two hundred posts in most Trump threads
Lot of wheel spinning and lack of agreement but we are interested enough to keep them alive
What if, what if we truly see the man one day,could we have lived with such negativity from any past POTUS?
Even Nixon
It remains my view the man is that clapboard construction we see in western movies, looks like a saloon out the front but nothing at all behind it
We shall see

Dear NNS,

I have absolutely no objection to preachers and pastors talking openly from the pulpit about which candidates they prefer. Their version of their religion may obligate them to do so. I just think they are not entitled to exemption of taxes when they do so. If they get exemption of taxes when other organizations supporting political candidates do not the government is no longer neutral toward religion but is favouring it. Of course a person's faith influences their public actions, and it should. However, they should not get tax exemption. My lack of religious faith influences my position on political issues, Should I also demand tax exemption? Is lack of religion a religion? Is not collecting stamps a hobby?

I do not hate Trump. There is no point in that. I just think he is not fit to be president for the reasons I stated in my first post.

I see nothing wrong in stores or people in houses putting up Christmas decorations or decorations for any religious holiday. In so doing they are endorsing a religion, and they have a right to do so. However, I think it wrong for any unit of government to do so.

You wrote: Want another solution for the Muslim on death row? Supply the resources that are being demanded, and just ask that they be allowed for the one facing death. Basically instead of a lawyer making demands there could be the Islamic community trying to put a service in that the Christian community has forged in that area to supply and place on their own.

The Muslim community is quite willing to provide that service. However, the law in those jurisdictions mandates that the condemned may have only Christian chaplains and that is where the Christian religion is favored over others.

Dear NNS,

You wrote: “Trump is creating family clinics that aren't abortion clinics? That's great news. Especially after the news that New York expanded legal abortions through to full term. The hard fought battle against abortion needs to take place.”

That is not great news. That is another reason why Trump is unfit to be president. A president should not be above the law. At this time legal and medically safe abortion is the law of the land. When abortion was illegal an abortionist was violating the law and could suffer the penalties of the law. President Trump in funding anti-abortion clinics is going against the law and should suffer the penalties for those who violate the law..

There has been a hard fought battle to make abortion legal, and I think it is a very good thing that it is legal. Although you and I disagree on whether it should be legal there is no disagreement that it is legal in the US at this time. Neither President Trump nor we are above the law. If we think a law is unjust we may disobey it and suffer the penalties for disobeying it. The penalty for a president violating the law may be removal from office.

Foxy,

"Kindly don't give me any more links from American conservative sites."

OK, I understand. I was just showing you some of the 'other' side, so that you wouldn't be totally led down the garden path by the stuff you frequent. But I know that sometimes ignorance is bliss.

So I won't show you any more of the things coming out about your hoped-for saviour, like:

* Female secret service staff complaining about being forced to watch him swim in the nude,

* Even more women complaining about his 'inappropriate' touching.

* information coming out about how he lied about the accident that killed his wife

* more stories from Ukraine about him protecting his kid

* stories about how the FBI is refusing to even look at information about him protecting his kid

* stories about how the US embassy in Ukraine is withholding visas for people wanting to go to the US to present data about him protecting his kid.

I promise I won't mention any of that.

What do you do when new data proves that your previously held assertions were total bunkum? What do you do when you don't have the intestinal fortitude to admit you were wilfully misled on the biggest story of the century?

Well, if you're SR, you concoct a totally fabricated story to try to deflect from your embarrassment. In this case, SR has made up a story about Trump and Giuliani creating a collusion narrative to hide the conspiracy narrative.

What do you do when it is shown that there were millions of times the term collusion was used in the press BEFORE Giuliani joined Team Trump. You ignore it. What do you do when it is clear that the terms collusion and conspiracy were used inter-changeably by the press and the Democrats (Schiff alone called it 'collusion' over 2000 times and the NYT had over 1500 articles that used both terms)? Well if you're SR, you ignore it.

And why are you concocting these silly stories when they just make you look inane? Because you are trying to deflect from the fact that you'd fallen for the real data and had spent two years on the working assumption that Trump was owned by Putin.

Do you have evidence for that assumption? No? So what do you do when evidence is presented that on the biggest of issues Trump is clearly a foe of Putin (eg over energy policy). You guessed it...you ignore it.

/cont

/cont

And what do you do when asked to present evidence that Putin owns Trump. You ignore the question other than the lame assertion that everyone just knows its true. And then try to deflect from the fact that there's no evidence of Trump favouring Putin in the past, by asserting there will be evidence in the future.

And that evidence? Well apparently Trump will let Putin take over Venezuela....or something. And what do you do when asked what you'd expect Trump to do in the short-term? Ignore the question. And what do when shown that before Putin sent 100 (!!) troops in to take over Venezuela, the Chinese and Cubans were already there. Ignore it. And are asked how China and Cuba being there is different to Russia being there? Ignore it.

And what do you do when you try to make a point about ONE Russian being given sanction relief by the US Treasury while hiding other relevant information about the issue? You deflect. Well at least that's better than just ignoring the point. A step up for SR.

Just like he never admitted getting the Maths about the hiatus all wrong. Just as he never admitted to getting the number of US troops in SK all wrong. Just as he never admitted that he was wrong to think the US had nukes in SK. Just like all those and many others, he'll never show the intestinal fortitude to admit he was wrong about the collusion/conspiracy issue. He'll continue to assert that the difference between the two, which is merely legalistic semantics, is the real story. And by doing so he'll continue to misunderstand what's really going on around him.

"'It was rouge elements within the Russian secret services and Putin knew nothing'.

HAHAHA. 'rouge' or ' rogue'? Reds under the bed? A typo or a Freudian slip?

AT after Trump those blind to his true nature will forgive themselves and never admit he had them fooled

Dear Belly,

I think many of those who support Trump are quite aware of his true nature and not fooled. They are quite aware that he was unfaithful to his wives and a scoundrel, but he is their scoundrel. He serves their purposes. I supported Bill Clinton who was also a scoundrel. However, I preferred Bill Clinton’s political positions to those of his opponents. Generally somebody who wants political power is unfit to have it, and those who vote for the candidate want what that candidate has to offer politically. I oppose Trump and regard him as unfit for office because of his political opinions not because he isn’t a saint.

David you will know more than me being an American
Sure you will understand I share your view of the man
Not sure why but he in my view threatens our links with that country
And too world trade
I feel he has already weakened America's alliances and military
Not sure Putin and China, are not quite pleased to see him in power
Your country of birth, and the world, needs the next POTUS to be a true statesman/Woman

Dear mhaze,

You really do dislike having your wings clipped don't you.

It is time to pull the horns in old chap. You got caught out and now you are seriously sooking up.

And you are still banging on about collusion and conspiracy. Look mate, it doesn't matter how many news agencies talked about collusion it still doesn't allow you to change the meaning. Mueller was only there to look indictable conspiracy and obstruction of justice transgressions. Collusion, as I have said repeatedly, is entirely different to conspiracy and to be claiming the Mueller's reports exposes a COLLUSION MYTH as you have repeatedly attempted to do is just plain wrong.

And how on earth do you think you are going to get away with intimating this was just one oligarch? Trump has repeatedly attempted to have Russian sanctions eased. This was back in 2017;

“The House of Representatives overwhelmingly passed a bill giving Congress the power to block any effort by the White House to weaken sanctions on Russia, offering a direct challenge to President Donald Trump's authority. The vote was 419-3.”
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/25/politics/iran-sanctions-bill/index.html

And this from the NYT;

“WASHINGTON — President Trump signed legislation on Wednesday imposing sanctions on Russia and limiting his own authority to lift them, but asserted that the measure included “clearly unconstitutional provisions” and left open the possibility that he might choose not to enforce them as lawmakers intended.
The legislation, which also includes sanctions on Iran and North Korea, represented the first time that Congress had forced Mr. Trump to sign a bill over his objections by passing it with bipartisan, veto-proof majorities. Even before he signed it, the Russian government retaliated by seizing two American diplomatic properties and ordering the United States to reduce its embassy staff members in Russia by 755 people.
The measure reflected deep skepticism among lawmakers in both parties about Mr. Trump’s friendly approach to President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/02/world/europe/trump-russia-sanctions.html

There is a long litany of Trump favouring his mate. Are you really that enamoured by your president that you can see it?

mhaze followed your link
Quite funny,not near true
But had your imaginary God ever lived he may not see the joke

"it doesn't matter how many news agencies talked about collusion "

Well news agencies and senators and Members of the House and members of the FBI and DOJ and so forth and so forth.

But apparently 99% of the planet is wrong and SR alone knows the truth.

Well I've gotta say I don't buy that, especially given how often SR is demonstrably wrong on almost any subject he addresses.

There's a certain childishness about assuming everyone else is wrong and you alone are right.

And what do you do when its pointed out that "If Trump was truly in the can for Putin, he'd be reducing US oil output and forcing an oil price rise"...well if you're SR, you ignore it.

Dear mhaze,

So Trump has repeatedly gone to the trouble, unsuccessfully thankfully, of repeatedly attempting to ease sanctions against Russia and Putin's mates yet unless he orders the US to stop producing oil he is totally clear in your book.

Don't you realise how ridiculous that is? I know he is your president and you think the sun shines out of his proverbial but at some stage you really do have to reboot this.

Talking to others like you on this forum makes me feel like the little boy in the crowd point out the bleeding obvious, the 'emperor has no bloody clothes'.

Trump was not charged with nor was he cleared of COLLUSION!

Wake the hell up.

Dear NNS,

I appreciate very much that we are conducting this interchange without calling each other's character into question. We are disagreeing in a polite manner.

To Belly.

You suggest to find methods for a better world. That's a Nobel thing to strive for. I would suggest to think small and try to build on the things that we can do. Start with yourself and what you can do with what you have (be realistic and don't stretch out past where you would burn out or can't afford, nor where you'd place yourself in danger for no reasonable benefit). Then after that, what can you and a community do (if you find agreement with the community, or find a community that can support a cause). These two areas of making the world a better place is all you need to do, and if people from any level of wealth had this approach to make the world a better place then they can act on that with in the means they have available.

There is a risk though in the striving of making the world a better place. That is basically to be conned and manipulated. The best example I can give for that is the debates for global warming. Regardless if you agree with the two narratives about global warming (that it is happening, or that GW is a con job) the issue raised by skeptics of GW is that it is all a lie. A well funded lie that keeps lying to continue receiving funds. This is the risk for any endeavor of making the world a better place, is that your resources and your efforts are just lining someone else's pockets, or worse that they are being manipulated and either do nothing, or serve a cause that actually harms the world. (For an example of that consider how many charities internationally are actually sources for terrorists to be financed).

(Continued)

(Continued)

On the other hand, the issue of making the world a better place is argued on systematically enforcing a better model. This is where we run into issues of hypocrisy and corruption in both religious institutions and socialist governments and socialist causes. When it comes to making the world better be careful you're not advocating it to become worse by forcing everyone else's hand to a cause you hold, unless it really is worth it.

....on the other, other hand (how many hands do we have) if you want suggestions on making the world a better place I could get behind that conversation.

Last thought for you Belly. It's the same one I posed to SteelRedux.

Why is the focus on Trump so much that He can be brought into any topic on OLO in some way or another? What good does this do? What purpose does this serve? And why Trump instead of some other world leader that has actually committed a crime against their people, (or mass killed their own people in a civil war?). Think hard on this, if you come up with an answer outside of Australians being played and cultural manipulation, I'd like to hear it.

To David F.

You can say you don't hate Trump, you can believe it, and who knows it may even be true. But my comment on hating Trump isn't directed just at you. The thread for this conversation is 230+ posts and still going strong. The only reason to fuel such a topic is if there was an active hate for Trump by at least some or most of those posting their rants against Trump.

Here let me put it in a different set of terms. Recently a coworker was placed in a limbo of sorts at work. She applied for a position at a different facility with a schedule that gut her better. She and got it, however both HR and supervisors kept her at the first location and the same schedule because of having a hard time training people to fill the responsibilities she took on. At one time during this work limbo someone in HR emptied her locker and dumped her belongings. (Possibly because they thought she was at the other location already and didn't remember that they kept her there). In the after math no one admitted to doing this and everyone exclaimed the same shock "I don't know how this happened."

Bringing this back to this topic, I'm sure you and everyone here can say that they don't hate Trump. Even to say they don't hate anything because hate is an unpopular thing to fess up to nowadays. But the only way this topic would have been started and reached the number of posts it has is if there was a culture of hate to fuel the topic. Even if you don't hate Trump, my observations about hating Trump still apply to the topic and the culture of posters that came to the topic.

(Continued)

I wouldn't celebrate on being polite and civil yet. In a previous conversation there was a little bit of time before things went sour. I haven't yet stood my ground on the points I've made, or started many counter points. But this is an experiment that I'm hoping will turn out alright.

Either way here is the same point I addressed to both SteelRedux and to Belly. Although you have a duel citizenship to explain your invested interest in Trump perhaps you can still look at the point anyways and give an answer to it. Here it is:

Why is the focus on Trump so much that He can be brought into any topic on OLO in some way or another? What good does this do? What purpose does this serve? And why Trump instead of some other world leader that has actually committed a crime against their people, (or mass killed their own people in a civil war?). Think hard on this, if you come up with an answer outside of Australians being played and cultural manipulation, I'd like to hear it.

NNS are you aware all views are valid? do you in telling me how to help make a better world think I am not doing so
My everyday see,s me trying to help, even if it is just saying g'day to a socially isolated person
Those of us who believe we see in Trump true danger, a truly dangerous fool, do so because we think we know the man is unfit to be in the white house to clean its floors

Dear NNS,

Not only do I not hate Trump, but a feeling of benevolence comes over me toward you and all the other interacting participants on this thread. We are as the denizens of two ant hills struggling for dominance.

A quote comes to mind:

“Brevity is the soul of wit.” - Shakespeare

Dear Belly,

I agree with your view of Trump. I think he is bad for the United States and the world. However, there has been an unfortunate tendency in this discussion to believe that virtue resides with one political position or another; that the side a person favors is more likely to tell the truth than the side the person opposes. Hillary Clinton called those who were for Trump deplorables. You were doing the same thing when you expressed the view that those who supported Trump were blind to his true nature. I think those who supported are just as intelligent as those who opposed Trump. They may be less well educated and blinded by religious prejudice. Different areas of the United States have different levels of education and different religious attitudes. Trump targeted the less educated and the fundies in his campaign by appealing to their prejudices so it is no accident that he had their vote. He even bragged about it. He also bragged about the support of the rich.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/watch-trump-brag-about-uneducated-voters-the-hispanics-126481/

Donald Trump clinched his third straight victory in the Nevada caucuses Tuesday, winning 46 percent of the vote. He celebrated with a rousing victory speech in which he boasted of his greed and his popularity with uneducated voters.

“It’s hard for me to turn down money because that’s what I’ve done in my whole life; I grab and grab and grab. You know I get greedy. I want money, money,” Trump said, explaining how difficult it is for him to reject campaign donations from his wealthy friends. “Now we’re going to get greedy for the United States — we’re going to grab and grab and grab.”

He thanked the coalition that carried him to victory: the young, the old, casino moguls, televangelists, highly educated and poorly educated voters. “I love the poorly educated!” Trump enthused.

Trump is a scoundrel exploiting the ignorant.

david how do I start? see I see no knight in shining armor in the Democrats right now
For sure I would be a democrat if I was an American
I saw nothing in Hillary, except she was not Trump
Yes! this forum is more about defending your opinion, than just having an opinion
Not for all of us
Australia has no knight in shining armor, no not even my party's leader
He once was the brilliant man I saw as the once in a century leader all parties need
Not now, maybe when/if he wins he will again become that man, but this world needs not just good leaders
Most importantly it needs informed, educated, caring, voters
Ones who demand nothing but the best from those who lead us
Trump, has, in my view, helped the Democrats return from the near death it had post Obama

" repeatedly attempting to ease sanctions against Russia "

Well, you see, that's simply untrue. Just another thing that you fabricate to try to keep your "Putin puppet" fantasy alive. The two articles you posted earlier were about Congress passing laws to stop easing of sanctions. But neither were in response to attempts by Trump to ease sanctions. They were if you like,preemptive strikes.

Trump has said that he wants to keep the option of easing sanctions open to use a bargaining chip in negotiations over nuclear arms reductions, but has not offered to reduce the sanctions unilaterally.

In fact there are more sanctions in place now than when Trump was elected. Something else for you to ignore?

As to oil, its clear that your lack of numeracy as shown in the hiatus debate extends to economics.

I'll try to help you understand. Back in 2013/14 oil prices were high and the Russian economy was looking good, since oil is Russia's major export. Then the Saudis and Russia decided to ramp up production to lower the price of oil (let me know if you want me to explain supply and demand theory) to kill of the growing but still small US fracking industry. They thought it would be a temporary campaign, the frackers would go broke or drop out and then they could increase prices again. But they didn't understand the resilience of those frackers who, instead, survived and simply became more efficient so that they could be profitable at lower prices.

/cont

/continued

Unfortunately for Russia, once they gave up trying to knock the US out of the oil export business, the frackers were a major force.
Now they find that they can't get prices back up to where they want them to be.

Since 2014, per capita GDP has fallen by 30%. Household disposable income has fallen every year. Russia is hurting to the extent that Putin is forced to increase suppression of dissent.

Even while Obama was putting obstacles in its way, the US frackers were succeeding. Now that Trump has removed those obstacles, the US is becoming the major fossil fuel exporter. And, it seems, any thoughts of getting oil back up to $100 is forlorn and therefore hopes of Russian economic recovery is likewise.

Now the single best thing that could happen to Russia is that oil suddenly jumped to $100 for the long term. But that could only happen if the US stopped exporting and started importing oil again.

Sooooo, and I hope I haven't lost you here with too much logic, if Trump truly was Putin's puppet, his priority would have been, at the very least, to maintain Obama's brakes on the industry. Yet he did the opposite.

Why? Well I'll leave you to ponder that one.

Dear mhaze,

Lol.

What a tortuous web you are having to weave my friend.

“The two articles you posted earlier were about Congress passing laws to stop easing of sanctions. But neither were in response to attempts by Trump to ease sanctions. They were if you like,preemptive strikes.”

Ha ha ha!

Pretty well rest was pure bunkum and diversionary too.

“In fact there are more sanctions in place now than when Trump was elected. Something else for you to ignore?”

The sanctions are on because Russia interfered in the US election to the benefit of Trump. That is simply not in dispute even if there is not enough evidence to lay charges of conspiracy.

Then you say Trump could have “maintain Obama's brakes on the industry”. What? It was under Obama in 2015 that the products of fracking were allowed to be exported, particularly crude oil exports which had been banned since 1975.

Of course a good part of the driver for US industry had been that ban. It saw it enjoying natural gas prices well what under Asia and Australian businesses were paying. We needed that for Australia. Now if Trump were really determined to maintain that advantage for the US he would re-institute the ban. However there is far too much donor money from fossil fuel companies for either party to walk it back. If Trump was to do so it would get my stamp of approval.

To Belly.

Are you really insulted because I started in the direction you asked? On Tuesday, 9 April 2019 7:14:26 AM you said as part of your reply:

"NNS find your posts interesting but maybe we should come up with methods for a better world, some future date it is almost sure, a one God will be imposed on humanity"

And with that in mind, I gave a very broad suggestion for what you can do to make the world a better place. It wasn't a criticism against you, unless you really want it to be. Honestly don't make a suggestion or ask a question, unless your ready for that suggestion to be taken seriously, or that question to actually be answered. I responded to your suggestion to "come up with methods for a better world." Read it again this time without getting offended, then reply. Or don't, either way.

(Continued)

(Continued)

As to your last reply to me on 11 April 2019 7:02:55 AM. (The one that you got offended that I gave suggestions for making the world a better place). My reply is simple.

•All views are not valid, nor are they all equal. The only ones that would think this are those afraid to have theirs criticized and who do not share in seeking the truth instead of stroking their view as right regardless if it is or isn't. Watch yourself with that philosophy it is a poisonous one.

•As for Trump. You say he is a danger. Why is Trump considered a danger to you? So far there is no WWIII, instead it seems his style has been the best approach to North Korea, and a few other international leaders. Don't like how he measures up against your set of morals? Or against a silver tongue statesman who false promises and lies their way through the world. Then my reply is simple. What does Trump do that is so dangerous and worth more of the focus then the leaders of Syria, Turkey, China, Russia, and at least a few in Africa. There are real dangers out there. You know the ones. The ones that if you say anything against them they declare war on you or send a package of terrorists to you gift wrapped. Trump is talked about, and criticized to the extent that people do, because he doesn't reply with war to everyone who is offended by him. That's the only real reason I can think of that Trump is the focus. Because he's no real danger when you speak out against him, but he still annoys and offends people so they reason he's a danger as an excuse to speak up.

NNS mate! the purpose of a discussion need not be everyone agrees with everyone
I do find your posts interesting
And sometimes agree
You ask me why I think as I do about Trump
Once, like my generation, I worshiped at the feet of America
Saw a country [boy was I blind] that stood for justice fairness honesty
I see in Trump a mean spirited racist lie teller and a fraud,I see power bought with money controlling my once dream country
And I see, and it hurts, my lifelong wish for an equality, for every opportunity for everyone, to live a good life, was a pipe dream
That this POTUS cares nothing, nothing at all, for those that can not benefit him
Worst than all that? uninformed blind people who think they see anything worthwhile in the man

http://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/i-know-nothing-about-wikileaks-donald-trump-20190412-p51dfj.html
Just another lie? we seem to see one every hour or so
Or is Trump in the early stages of dementia

To Belly.

If I made it sound like everyone had to agree with each other, that was not my intent. But I do think the idea that all views are equally valid is not a good approach. There are many views that are valid even if they differ. There are many views that are worth standing against. Knowing what makes a point strong or weak instead of accepting it unconditionally is better in my opinion. From that approach you can tell if a person has a resonable stance or if they are talking out of both sides of their mouth and not valid at all. (An example of this is anyone we see that makes a demand of other people that when it comes to applying to themself they have a ton of excuses).

As for Trump, I disagree with your assessment of him. So far he's also shown signs of keeping his promises that he campaigned for instead of picking one and dropping the rest. It's something worth counting as a positive even if he doesn't measure up to your standards of being a moral leader.

As for the US. I've been growing up in a culture that has been trying to shame and undercut the nation from within the nation. Take a lesson from me and try to encourage the youth of Australia with things to be proud of their nation and their culture. Hopefully you guys can curb this in your own nation instead of having a generation no longer feel pride of being part of it or are emberresed by part of it. That negitive narrative likely caused many issues that could be part of what you're seeing in the US today.

NNS we differ, everything I know/think,warns me America,maybe the western world,is in very real danger
Trump is unfit, in my view,to lead anyone
Divisive us against them, will do great harm I can only hope a better leader with new directions arrives next year

Dear NNS,

You write;

“As for the US. I've been growing up in a culture that has been trying to shame and undercut the nation from within the nation. Take a lesson from me and try to encourage the youth of Australia with things to be proud of their nation and their culture. Hopefully you guys can curb this in your own nation instead of having a generation no longer feel pride of being part of it or are emberresed by part of it. That negitive narrative likely caused many issues that could be part of what you're seeing in the US today.”

Have no fear of that mate, we are quickly learning to march in step with the American drum. My father's generation had little time for the flag waving jingoism of the 'Yanks'. There was a general distrust of authority and politicians were no able to get away the the crap they do now.

I always considered that approach as pretty healthy, but now our own jingoism is abounding everywhere and we vacuum up spin like it is going out of fashion. We are allowing a constant attack on the values of collectivism which held this nation together without the deep divisions and need for a civil war. We are chasing the kind of wealth inequality which exists in your country and seeing the constant erosion of gun laws which are designed to keep us from harm.

Our two parties are an embarrassment, certainly not to the degree of Trump and his cronies, but you seem to want this embarrassment not to be called out. I think North Korea is the ultimate example of that.

Whether one thinks a president is good or bad depends on one’s views.

To me some key issues are the environment, global warming, healthcare, the uneven concentration of wealth, militarism and the rise of authoritarian rulers. I think Obama was a good president because those are important issues to me, and most of them seemed concerns of Obama. I think it was good that he put obstacles in the way of the frackers. Others think it was bad to do so. I think his speech at Cairo admitting past misdeeds of the US was great. It was a relief from the bragging jingoism so many US politicians indulge in. I think Obamacare was a step to universal healthcare. Trump wants to get rid of Obamacare, but he has no plan to replace it. Obama’s environment regulations that Trump is dismantling I thought were good. Many species are becoming extinct in the world today because of human action.

https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/biodiversity/elements_of_biodiversity/extinction_crisis/

That is not a concern of Trump.

Nixon was conscious of environmental degradation and instituted the Environmental Protection agency which Trump has put the EPA in the hands of the polluters.

Another key issue to me is the curbing of militarism. All presidents, both Republican and Democratic, have supported the warfare state. However, Trump is excessive in his support. He increases military expenditure and decreases funds for the state department. Eisenhower, a Republican President, warned against the dangers of the military-industry complex. However, his warning is largely unheeded.

That is not a concern of Trump.

He has expressed his admiration for dictators and authoritarian rulers such as Putin and Duterte. Trump is putting industry lobbyists in charge of governments that are supposed to be watchdogs over industry. To me he is a great stench.

I hope the US can recover from the stench and get a new president as good as Obama.

Why should we in Oz be worried?

Big T unilaterally moves US embassy to Jerusalem and 'declares' Jerusalem to be Israel's capital (to much international consternation), indicates support for Netanyahu's promise to make the Golan Heights 'Sovereign Territory', says nix to Big N's support for the destruction of Palestinian villages and their replacement by 'illegal' (but nonetheless sanctioned) 'new settlements', gives NATO the kiss goodbye, poo-hoos Paris and Kyoto, pees on the Iran Agreement, pees-off Kim at last meeting, installs tariffs on Canada and Mexico, mixes punches with Chi and the EU, stands up against any easing of the 'ye-ye' US gun culture, throws EPA to the dogs, gives open slather to Fracking (in spite of clear evidence of groundwater pollution resultants), unilaterally throws out nuclear limitation agreement with Russia, bolsters the arms trade with the Saudis, plans the rescinding of Obamacare, blocks the availability of essential migrant workers and plans to rescind visa protection for thousands of long term migrants from strife-torn Central America and at the same time blocks aid to these same countries through some deluded idea that this could act to REDUCE the immigration caravans?

So much for World Peace, and particularly in the Middle East or in Central America?
Offers humanitarian aid to Venezuela - but really with a view to gaining control of Venezuela's oil?

Oz got pulled into Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Where next?

Our greatest Allie?
One should be wary of such 'friends'.

I would hasten to add that I am not anti-America or anti-American, but I'm sure I'm not alone with my concerns for the direction that America is taking under its current leadership.

As the late Senator John McCain said "America is better than this; Americans are better than this."

Alternatively, as Cassius is purported to have said "Give me men about me who are fat, sleek headed men, and men as sleep o' nights".
Has Big T asked for or demanded less?

The world needs leaders who are truly ethical, visionary and just; who personify integrity, honesty and virtue, who maintain and demand the highest levels of morality, tolerance, empathy and justice.

Does T rate against such a scale?

Oz is like a pimple on a pumpkin; a world away from its age-old friends and allies, endeavouring to maintain good relations with some neighbours who might covet our territory and resources, and having to be mindful of some others investing within Oz and in surrounding territories, possibly to gain influence and strategic dominance.

We need America, the EU and the Commonwealth to be on our side, if we are to survive as an independent sovereign nation.
Thus, we need those friendly nations to have and to maintain reliable, trustworthy and honourable leadership.
Of course we also need our leadership to be strong and ethical (and committed to more low-cost good quality public housing).

A better world, a more tolerant and cooperative world, and to hell with tyrants and potential dictators.

To Saltpetre.

Thankyou for answering my question regarding why Trump is the focus and other world leaders are ignored. It's because you need to rely on the US and other allies?

That makes a bit more sense. But it doesn't settle with me very well. The US is becoming more and more the police of the nations. Not just because it's the role we've taken on, but also because it's the role handed to us. We spend a lot on our military and our services world wide are both complained about and taken for granted. If NATO and other nations built up their own military and defenses to have more support for all the places the US is patrolling then the burden would be better, and the US wouldn't have to have their flags at half staff every other day in different states across the country to honor the soldiers who've lost their lives in combatant areas.

Do you think it's cheep for us to do this? The cost in manpower, the struggle to be at top grade in tactics, intelligence, weapons, and personal are a heavy burden to carry. That's not including the sacrifice soldiers face or survive with. It's also not uncommon for one promise given for joining the military being denied later on because of budget issues or it just being a cop out lie.

(Continued)

(Continued)

One other thing you said was:

"The world needs leaders who are truly ethical, visionary and just; who personify integrity, honesty and virtue, who maintain and demand the highest levels of morality, tolerance, empathy and justice."

There's no leader that fulfills these demands. Instead what we get are leaders that seek to have the power, and regardless if it's for noble reasons or because they they are greedy that is the position of seeking an office as a country's leader. However, the task of being a national leader has demands on it to keep the country in a good working state, otherwise it will fall apart, or the people will turn against you. Even if a world leader isn't the best of the best, (they usually aren't) having that responsibility molds them to either take on that responsibility well or to fail miserably. If you want, watch the US closely. But in the end, it's our own battle to figure out our own country. I don't think Trump is a Tyrant, but I also don't think the people in the US will give him the ability to be a tyrant even if he wanted to be one.

Let me put it another way. For at least the past three presidents the US has becoming more and more split. Almost to the point of riots and conditions leading up to a civil war. The issue with Trump is that he is not supported well enough to be a dictator, because if anything would happen it would be a civil war before that would take place. With this in mind, the US does not need international focus to divide our nation even more. Which is exactly what is happening with the world demeaning Trump when most of the leaders and countries condemning him are doing no better themselves.

Dear Belly,

I hope at some future date you can look up to the USA again. I hope the government of the USA will try to be better in care for the environment, education, lack of corruption, concern for the environment, lower infant mortality rates, universal medical care, a decent living standard for all, a smaller gap between rich and poor, support for science and the humanities, separation of religion and state, support for democracy, harmony between people of different ethnicities and religions and a vision of greatness that relies on more than being the most powerful bully on the block and the world’s policeman.

I would like to see the United States work with other nations to see a world under international law and participate in the UN, the international Criminal Court, international climate agreements, meaningful disarmament conferences, foreign aid to lift up the people of other countries and population control. I would like to see a world that abandoned religious and other superstitions. I would like to see a world that was tolerant to those who wish to keep those superstitions but would not allow their superstition to control others

I hope we will not enter a new Dark Age with a further retreat from reason, democracy and human rights. There are those who would turn the clock back by making abortion illegal again in countries that have liberated women from the tyranny of controlling their bodies, exalting superstition above reason, increasing nationalism (Brexit is an example), ignoring climate change and putting their countries in the hands of such as Trump, Duterte, Orban, Bolsonaro, Netanyahu, Putin and others of their ilk. At this time they seem to be succeeding.

david f do you know we think much the same, not one thing there I do want and agree with
Money and greed has its hands around the throat of world governments
We should confront, here and all over the world, dividing us by race or belief, is blindness
It can never happen
So just maybe one world one set of laws policed, is the best way forward

Dear Belly,

I think better than one set of laws for all would be to have fewer laws and learn to live with those who think differently.

david f yes and yes it is in fact my view that one day we will have one set of laws and much more inflicted on us
Seems we cannot work it out for ourselves so it will be done for us
Not by someone like Trump however, he thrives on division

Some, even myself, will question me over this post
Watched Trump talking about the Muslim senator, we all know the one Democrat, my defaultr side, Trump reveled in tormenting her, his crowd loved it
She bought it on herself.
YES she did, nine even was about pure insane filth
No place for the usual, *it was wrong BUT*
Such default Islamic answers, even useds by the nicest people, is inflammatory, feeds hate,divides the community
Terrorism is never justified, but Trump is a Tramp,please America, home of world entertainment tell us he is just a B grade movie and it will end soon

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-19/donald-trump-mueller-report-details/11031544
Conversation should not end without this link
Clearly a different slant will be put on it by Murdock, that alone asks questions about Trump and his backers

Dear Belly,

Outside of Trump being unfit for high office I am frightened that such an unstable, impulsive individual has the power to order the firing of nuclear weapons. He already has ordered the most powerful bomb in the US arsenal to be fired.

"The strike was carried out to neutralise an IS tunnel. The US has never used this bomb in its military operation. It has a blast radius of nearly 50 kms. A GBU-43/B Massive Ordnance Air Blast Bomb, nicknamed MOAB, was dropped at 7pm(local time) Thursday"

The bomb was dropped in a fertile area, and it had an effective radius of nearly 50 kms. How many people has the monster Trump murdered? Was all the slaughter worth it to neutralise an IS tunnel?

I really don't understand how come this man in still
in office? Can't the US do something about him?
We deal with the leaders that we think are unfit.
Why can't the US?

david foxy my true honest fearis the enquiry uncovered much more than we will ever be told
America has form for putting the country first
If we ever heard the truth about Trump it would be damning for them