There has been some emotion displayed in the last week or so, prior to upcoming music festivals, about the 'need’ for taxpayers to provide pill testing services for young people silly enough to take illicit drugs.

To me, this would be an act of aiding and abetting drug use.

People who know that taking drugs is dangerous (and illegal), but who are demanding pill testing are suffering from cognitive dissonance.

The same thing applies to those people condoning 'safe injecting rooms’

Interfering in commerce can be a dangerous thing
Police officers all over this country get a large part of their income from not stopping the drug trade
Untrue? no sadly has been true for 100 years plus

Hey ttbn,
Everything happens in small steps.
They are going to have to legalise and regulate all this stuff when we have a cashless society.
These news stories and unfolding events are to condition you for whats coming.

"Police officers all over this country get a large part of their income from not stopping the drug trade"

Evidence?

None?

Yeah, didn't think so.

____________________________________________________________

This is just a backdoor way of legalising these types of drugs. The government is trying to tell people that they have to be illegal because they're dangerous. Yet, through this process, they'll be telling people that these particular drugs are safe but still illegal. And from that, people will take the lesson that drugs aren't illegal because their unsafe.

Personally, I'm entirely in favour of complete legalisation of all drugs such that they can be sold openly just like tobacco and alcohol. The so-called war of drugs was lost a long time ago and can never be won. Legalise them, regulate them, tax them. Sure this will create other societal problems but anyone who thinks our current policy settings are desirable or sustainable is living in a fantasy-land.

yep make people reliant on the Government so nobody has to take responsibility for any of their actions. Surely we have learn't from patronising aboriginal communities in that it produces totally self centred people. Soon we will be wiping peoples bums.

AC,

I'm a bit surprised to see a fighter like you talking about the 'inevitability' of legalising dangerous drugs. While some administrations have de-criminalised weed, we are talking about really bad stuff here. Weed smokers will hardly notice the effect it has on their already dull brains, but death and mayhem? I don't think so.

runner,,

Yes. It could be part of the Far Left's trust-me-Im-from-the-government plot. I hope all “bum wiping” would be done by politicians themselves.

EVIDENCE? good grief former Magistrate Murray Farquar the near all NSW drug squad
Mr Asias pay roll
NSW police have form
worse than most states
evidence?

Hey ttbn,
"I'm a bit surprised to see a fighter like you talking about the 'inevitability' of legalising dangerous drugs."
That doesn't necessarily mean I'd support legalising and regulating all the hard stuff; but I don't see any other way it would go under a cashless society system.

- And if they've already decided were going cashless eventually then they must have a plan in mind for dealing with the issue -

The only answer I can see is legalise and regulate.

They will tell us how much the current system costs and the benefits of the new system with regulation.
- To pay for all these necessary social programs -
They'll do it with weed, say its been a great success and then slowly bring in the rest.
In the US buying government regulated recreational drugs will nullify any right to firearms.
So in the US it's also a part of an agenda to take the guns.

Regarding weed, I do think it should be legal on the basis that there should be a legal alternative for those going through messy breakups.
I don't think that alcohol should be the only legal option other than prescription antidepressants.
- I believe it would lower crime and domestic violence -

AC,

I'm apparently missing something. What does a cashless society have to do with drugs?

People need cash to buy drugs, take away cash and they won't be able to buy drugs.
It's a way down the track yet but we'll see where things are closer to 2030 (if we're all still here).
I'll bet I'm right, it's going in that direction.

Just think of the costs involved in trying to
save the lives of kids who unknowingly are
misled into taking the wrong drugs at music
festivals. Kids who end up losing their lives.
If pill testing can reduce drug taking because
some people will discover that the drug itself
is not what they think it is - then surely it's
worth giving it a trial. Pill testing just may
reduce drug taking rather than increase it.

There's no evidence that pill testing encourages
drug taking and that has been the evidence
from Britain and Europe where they've been having
drug checking for several years now.

Saving lives - it's worth giving it a go.

NSW Royal Commission in to Mr Asia Syndicate was one of many showing police protected drug dealers
As high up as chief magistrate and Commissioner of police Merv Wood
Other such as the Wood Royal Commission in Queensland followed even seeing a Knighted police commissioner in prison
Drugs both kill and breed dirty cops

AC,

OK. But it is likely that the pushers will have card machines. I saw a few days ago that a busker had gone digital - swipe instead of tossing a handful of change into the violin case.

Gawd help us.

Foxy,

Are you sure that you are not just indulging in 'conspicuous emoting’?

“Unknowingly….misled into taking the wrong drugs…”.

Are there ‘right’ illegal drugs? Are kids that stupid? Do they not have parents who have told them the danger of taking drugs? Don't they know it is illegal to take drugs? To buy drugs?

These kids are not “losing their lives”; they are killing themselves.

There is “no evidence” that pill testing stops drug taking either.

I have sympathy for parents who lose a child via drugs; for the child - no sympathy at all. Anyone who expects the public to pay for testing of drugs that should not be taken in the first place is condoning drug use. There is no way around that. Whatever happened to being responsible for yourself and your family?

Yep another Government department for pill testing. It must have a female CEO, a diversity Officer, at least one transexual and possibly a straight person. Then we need another Department to see that the drugs that are confiscated will be legally disposed of.

I did a bit of a search on pill testing
services and I think that you may find
the following link of interest. Even though you
may not approve of a female speaking on the matter - however
it still might be worth reading for those who are willing to
be more open-minded on this issue and learn what those with
knowledge and experience on the subject have to say:

http://ndarc.med.unsw.edu.au/node/301000974

//And if they've already decided were going cashless eventually then they must have a plan in mind for dealing with the issue//

Since they've gone to all the trouble to issue new notes, I'm assuming they haven't decided we're going cashless yet.

//OK. But it is likely that the pushers will have card machines.//

Dealers with eftpos? Yeah, that seems unlikely.

////There is “no evidence” that pill testing stops drug taking either.//

It's not intended to stop drug taking. Pill testing is based on the self-evident fact that no matter how many times you tell some people 'just say no', they'll still do drugs. People, in general, like to get high. If you could actually ban all the drugs (alcohol too) and make it work, people just would spin around in circles until they got dizzy... it's human nature.

So rather than trying to aim for some impossible utopian fantasy but constantly falling short due to it being impossible, some people feel that it is better to aim for more realistic and achievable goals like reducing the amount of toxic compounds ingested alongside the drugs themselves. Some dealers cut with cornflour; some with drain cleaner.

I'd have thought not swallowing unidentified pills & or substances would be the safest way to go about this.
We need to stop interfering with natural remedies, the genepool will sort itself.

Yes Ttbn, the cost of pill-testing should not fall on the taxpayer.

It should probably be in the interest of venue-owners to provide this service, otherwise charities.

Foxy,

I don't mind "a female speaking on the subject" at all, and I gave your reference a quick look. But, and we have been here before, you are only presenting me with someone else you agree with. You don't agree with me, and I don't agree with you or your "female". There's a lot of emotion, undoubtedly brought on by someone's grief; but logic and common sense must prevail in the name of sanity. The majority cannot be made to pay for the foolish, minute minority.

You almost won me over Yuyutsu, I thought 'duty of care';
Establishments can't serve a person alcohol who has become intoxicated;
If drugs are done on their premises then maybe they should have a 'duty of care' to their patrons as well.
I thought why should the government and taxpayers pay for recreational pill testing?
[Their might be an argument that the government is better off just making the drugs instead and ensuring they're safe.
- You see the legalise and regulate argument keeps coming back]

But then I thought why should the venue operator be responsible for the duty of care of illegal drug users when they don't sell or serve their patrons these drugs (hopefully)
If they're not giving them the drugs there's no responsibility for 'duty of care' of the people using illegal drugs.
And what about the duty of care from police to go in and bust all these illegal drugs users instead?

And so I can't decide what the right path is for this issue;
Do I think pill testing should at least be available for illegal recreational drug use if it saves lives?

- All I can say is that I'm fairly sure no parent wants to go to their child's funeral -

In asking whether the government should pay for it, the first answer is probably not.
Why should taxpayers that don't use drugs pay for the associated costs of those that do.
I see no reason.

BUT.

Would the cost to the community OF pill testing be more than the cost to the community of NOT pill testing?

And yes, 'social cost' it sounds like socialism, and I definitely don't like it.
So, moral to the story - I'm still completely clueless on this issue.
- But it is a 'people die' issue, so not one to dismiss so easily.

Horrible as it is one day the mass murderers we know as terrorists could introduce poison to murder many
Drug use has killed many
Drug dealers are murderers
Any thing we can do to stop the deaths id worth the effort

Dear Critic,

Saving lives is not a duty but a noble virtuous act.

When government turns it into a duty or does it instead of us, it deprives us of the merit and ability to express the goodness of our heart, perhaps even the ability to repent and make good for our own historical shortcomings.

If you believe that saving the lives of young drug addicts is a worthwhile cause, then nobody should deprive you of the ability to help them yourself. You could be the venue's owner who doesn't want death on your premises; or just a good-hearted donor who gets a warm feeling when donating to a charity that helps to save their lives.

---

Dear Belly,

«Any thing we can do to stop the deaths id worth the effort»

In this case you would agree with me that the state should remove its protection from these monsters by decriminalising their murder. In other words, "they were a drug dealer" should be a valid defence on charges of murder/manslaughter.

For once I agree with Foxy.

While I agree that something has to be done to stop the scourge of illegal drugs, the fact that our youth are dying because of the variability in the strength of the drugs and toxic substances that they are cut with, there needs to be some form of harm mitigation.

I feel sorrow for us and the parents of some fool that kills himself taking drugs. For the money wasted on raising the fool.

But really the country is better off without him/or her. They would not be of benefit to us if they are stupid enough to take the drugs. Same as swimming in a river when crocs or sharks have been sighted. Their own stupidity!

Certainly not taxpayer funded pill testing and I even have reservations about Ambos treating drug overdoses at the, so called, music festivals or other places

there needs to be some form of harm mitigation.
Shadow Minister,
I believe anything we do to help is going against everything we stand for by relieving these morons of responsibility. Take drugs, you can die ! We can't do or say any more.
The swamp of stupidity needs draining so, why not let it be self-draining ?

Yuytsu yes agree in reality the thread has gone places I do not want to go
Party drugs are not killing addicts but normal kids we if they had been ours would make us proud
My lurch in this thread to dirty cops, comes from pure contempt for the understanding our courts and yes police help the trade at times
And get wealthy doing it
Lets stop the trade
Prison, confiscate ALL property and wealth
Legalize the less dangerous drugs
And stop devaluing lives by complaining about the costs involved

So, a couple of you are saying that personal responsibility should be replaced by Big Brother "harm mitigation. Come on fellas, you are not doing anyone any favours, and you are not only condoning drug use, you are also speeding up the loss of moral fibre among the young. Trying to replace crappy parents with crappy bureaucrats will only make things worse.

What we need is a return to the days when parents were loving mentors, not 'friends’ to spoilt brats; when parents didn't try to live their own lives through the kids. And yes, let's bite the bullet and resist the ridicule, a return to a Christian upbringing

ttbn,
That raises a much bigger question:
WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?

Jesus responded by helping people in trouble. His response was diametrically opposed to the rightwing strategy of condemning people in the vain hope that doing so would deter others from doing the wrong thing.

And your claim that harm minimisation amounts to replacing personal responsibility (or even parents) is one of the sillier strawmen around. Augmenting something doesn't amount to replacing it.

WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?

certainly not support a cesspool of debauchery. Surely you are not that biblically ignorant.

WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?

So long as we operate through a limited human mind we have no way to tell whether life or death are preferable in a given situation, but one who walks with the Holy Spirit does not operate through dogmatic mental formulas. Jesus would respond separately in every case in ways that we could find totally surprising.

A problem with youngsters below 20yrs old is that their perception of risk is significantly less developed than adults which leads to many otherwise bright and valuable youngsters making stupid and sometimes fatal decisions.

While far from an advocate for a nanny state, sometimes a little help can save someones son or daughter that otherwise would be needlessly lost.

//And yes, let's bite the bullet and resist the ridicule, a return to a Christian upbringing//

Yeah, I'm not sure that will help. I'm pretty sure that Hillsong are all on the hard stuff, for a start. I mean, you'd have to be on pills to enjoy Christian rock, surely?

http://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/she-was-on-the-right-path-teen-pleads-guilty-to-sneaking-394-pills-into-festival-20190110-p50qkc.html
Nothing less than ten years in prison
And take every cent or property she owns from her
Brutal
Death is too

Jesus Christ was not a soft touch for wrong-doers. His message was forgiveness and redemption, as long people lived the right way - according to Christian teaching - and there are not too many people living that way now. The consequences of doing the wrong thing are as clear as man-made laws are: transgress, and there will be be penalties.

Too many people wrongly see Jesus Christ as some wet, socialist social worker.

runner correctly puts this misconception down to “biblical ignorance”. There is very much an 'or else' in the admonitions of Christianity. You don't have to follow the advice, but be prepared for the consequences if you don't.

A few other concerns I don't see in the conversation.

How much would pill testing services cost to run, and who would be doing them?

Assuming the service creates a zone of protection from police so that illegal drugs can be tested, then what kind of regulation is there to keep the tests honest? Either from one concerned person testing the pills telling everyone who comes to test it, "you can die from this," regardless of the results. Or alternatively, a drug dealer at the party could bribe the testing station to only give positive results that the drug is fine. If there's no regulation there's no reason to trust the testing source at a drug popping party.

Can the service be, not just informative on the contents of the pills, but also be tested by someone who knows the long term and short term effects of common drugs to add an element to discourage the people testing the pills from taking the drugs.

If these services are available, how long are they available before the results are looked at to see if this has helped in reducing illegal drug use. If it isn't working to reduce the use of illegal drugs there needs to be a point to kill the program.

Honestly, I don't see much good coming out of this kind of a program, but that's largely because it sounds like it's meant to inform instead of stop drug use. Basically giving it the OK if it passes a test. If it's put into place it should be there with a specific purpose that can be checked in a population survey to determin if drug use has gone down, up or stayed the same. If it's gone up, kill the program. Even put that restriction into the bill to leglislate it.

"What would Jesus do?"

He would heal people, teach people, and convict them of their sins so that they can turn from their sins. A constant message from Jesus was to repent and turn from your sins, and turn to God.

Also Jesus pointed out the hypocracy of the religous leaders at that time because of the harm they put the people under for their benifits. I would have to assume, if Jesus was at these parties he would speak out against the drug dealers calling them for what they are. Murders, and the scum that likes the young.

Those asking "what would Jesus do,"are you ok with more teaching based on what Jesus taught? Because I think that's a great idea. Not just for the drug scene mind you, but also including the drug scene.

//Either from one concerned person testing the pills telling everyone who comes to test it, "you can die from this," regardless of the results.//

No, because that could potentially be dishonest. Believe it or not, some unscrupulous 'drug' dealers will sell pills with no active ingredient at all. If you run the sample through your chromatograph and the chromatograph tells you that their pill is nothing more than glucose and blue food colouring, I would consider it extremely dishonest - not to mention irresponsible - to lie and tell them a small sugar pill will do them any more harm than a gummi bear. The nocebo effect is just as real as the placebo effect, and telling people that non-toxic compounds are toxic is a very silly and risky to do.

Also, although there is no formal code of ethics for analytical technicians, we are trained in chemistry and like everybody with formal training in the sciences, it is drilled into us heavily from day one that YOU DON"T COOK THE BOOKS. Ever. Falsifying data is just wrong. And it doesn't help anybody.

//Or alternatively, a drug dealer at the party could bribe the testing station to only give positive results that the drug is fine. If there's no regulation there's no reason to trust the testing source at a drug popping party.//

Gosh, that's a bit cynical even by my standards. Have you considered the possibility that the technicians doing the testing might not be completely amoral psychopaths? That they might just be normal, decent, regular people who would consider it completely unconscionable to turn a blind eye to people swallowing Draino just because some dealer waves a few pineapples at them?

//but also be tested by someone who knows the long term and short term effects of common drugs//

So, all the stuff that everybody knows already because it is drilled into them relentlessly all throughout school, and on the off chance that they were home-schooled or something, can look up in no time at all on their handy telephonic devices?

http://adf.org.au/drug-facts/

Yeah, that shouldn't be too hard too arrange. As I said, everybody knows it already. And they still take drugs... after all, you can stick gruesome photos of what smoking does to you on cigarette packs, and people still buy them.

What's more important is having somebody with a decent working knowledge of the many and varied compounds that will inevitably accompany the drug, or as mentioned above, possibly entirely replace the drug. Sounds like a job for a chemist. It's no good just having some drug educator interpret the results if they focus entirely on the dangerous combination of ketamine and GHB but totally ignores the dimethylmethylmercury because it's not a drug, so it must be totally safe, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethylmercury

//Those asking "what would Jesus do,"are you ok with more teaching based on what Jesus taught? Because I think that's a great idea. Not just for the drug scene mind you, but also including the drug scene.//

Please, by all means feel free to share with us his teachings on the harmful and addictive drug that is alcohol, with particular reference to his first miracle at the wedding at Cana. I can't imagine what other drugs aside from alcohol Jesus would have had anything to say about; as far as I know it's the only drug mentioned in the Bible because it's the only one the authors were familiar with at the time.

"What would Jesus do?"

I think Jesus should have a word with his father to end corruption, poverty, illness & make humans sterile before 25 & after 35.

More youth die on our roads from stupid actions each year than from taking drugs. Are we testing the sensibility of youth before each time they drive a car?

Is the Government culpable for not testing each time a youth drives a car? The whole proposal is ridiculous and the Police should arrest those seeking to have their pills tested as it endangers their life; similarly the Police should arrest a person acting stupidly on our roads.

“How much would pill testing services cost to run, and who would be doing them”

As much as the rent-seekers could squeeze out of it. Big Government is costly.

The really silly thing about the pill testing nonsense is that, if anyone is detected by police in possession of illicit drugs, the drugs are confiscated, the person is arrested or reported, and charged. But, duh, at a music festival, it would be OK for the same offenders to rock up to a testing booth and say, “Hey, I'm in possession of illicit drugs. Don't take them off me. Don't Arrest me. Don't charge me for possession. Just test them and see it's safe for me to take them”.

How stupid are these people!

Try to be positive
First offense six months, no way around it
During that time softer prison education and trips to big prison as part of it
Take all cash and property from them
No way around it
Second offense all of the above but big prison two years
No on going costs no judges being bribed no or far less drug dealers
POLICE trapped with dirty cash five years loss of every cent including super
End the trade no fooling around

Toni quote: "No, because that could potentially be dishonest."

Glad you got the gist of my point. There's no way reason to believe there is reliable people testing the pills.

More youth die on our roads from stupid actions each year than from taking drugs.
Josephus,
My guess is that the majority of those were under the influence of drug & alcohol. There is no excuse for voluntarily & deliberately consuming drugs to get "high".

To Toni Lavis.

Regarding teaching from Jesus or from bibical teachings the same verses that apply to not getting drunk, and to be sober minded can be applied to any other mind altering drug. Since most drugs taken at a party are for the high feeling, not for pain, health or any other reason, the reason to not take the drugs at the party applies. The verses where Jesus says to obey the laws of the land and respect the authorities who rule over you can also be applied to not take illegal drugs, thereby ignoring the laws of the land. There's even a teaching that for believers who believe in God and in Jesus to have the Holy a spirit in them, therefore to not harm their bodies which now contain the Holy Spirit.

If you want the verse references I can look them up for you. But the over all statements of drinking verses partying and getting drunk can be applied to taking drugs at a party instead of staying sober minded.

How stupid are these people!
ttbn,
In the extreme but in their defence we must acknlowlege that it is not natural stupidity, it's educated. This is achieved by educating common sense out of the mind & replacing it with blind faith in people who's only expertise is waffling jargon.
Hence the state of Nations since the education revolution.

//There's no way reason to believe there is reliable people testing the pills.//

If you say so, although if everybody is that crooked then there's no reason to assume that all the cops aren't on the take, in which case your law & order, zero tolerance model won't work either.

I guess sometimes you just have to have a little bit of faith in people.

Also, in my experience, analytical technicians tend not to come across as psychopaths. One common trait of psychopaths is that they are prone to boredom and have a need for stimulation. They are not the sort of people who are attracted to jobs that even most non-psychopaths would regard as dull, like being an analytical technician. It concerns me that you seem to see psychopaths everywhere, when we know statistically that simply isn't the case. I recommend you check out 'The Psychopath Test' by Jon Ronson if you get a chance; it's a fascinating book and it may help lay some of your fears to rest.

Individual,

Of course. People do and think what the mass media tells them to do and think. Mass media - mass hysteria.

“I really look with commiseration over the great body of my fellow citizens who, reading newspapers, live and die in the belief that they may have known something of what has been passing in the world in their time”. (Thomas Jefferson)

To Toni.

Perhaps you haven't seen or heard how crazy people can be when drugs are around. It doesn't have to be illegal either. Because of this I wouldn't be so quick to say that only psychopaths would be corrupted by being near drugs.

Police that deal with drugs are known with a stereotype of corruption more often then other fields like murder investigation, or theft.

Within the last few years, hospitals have confessed to a problem. Prescription drugs being stolen by staff. Not just an occupational issue by one hospital or an other, but a much more wide spread problem. Then there is the opioid crisis that is going on more recently.

But these things are in the news. Perhaps you've never seen it first hand or heard about it from someone you know? A coworker I knew had an accident once that then required surgery and pain medication. One of her friends said she would help her out while she was recovering. Instead what the friend did was take the bottle of pills and replace the pills with rocks. Causing a lot more pain during recovery.

(Continued)

(Continued)

There are plenty of examples of people losing their trustworthiness just by being around drugs. Both with legal and illegal drugs. For the legal drugs, both hospitals and police have added securities measures and restrictions on access to combat the problem. And at homes I've seen commercials for people to lock up their meds so their kids or grandkids don't start taking the same things, just as a precaution.

However, instead of tightening down restrictions on drugs. The idea is that at a music festival or any other large party to have pill testing stations, with the intention to make those places outside of the law, thus no control to cut the corrupting factor that drugs are in every day life.

In my opinion that removes the argument of "if" it will end horribly. And instead turns it into a question of "when," "where," and "how bad" the incidents are.

A second issue of cost makes this also worth pursuing. The only way for this pill stations to be effective is if they are run by a chemist, or at least a trained technician. Both who would be committed to their job and not ready to take money on the side. (By the way that's also not that uncommon for people to do either). This means it'll have to be a higher cost to have the stations, and won't be a sustainable cost for parties or events. (Unless it's paid by the people putting the event together instead of taxes, then it could be part of ticket costs or something).

Ttbn had it right to think the cost will be great. What I don't get though is who he's the only one who even replied to the question "how much will this cost." It's as if people don't care how to fund this project. That should be one of the first points to consider so that you know your really serious about it instead of being unreasonable.

//Perhaps you haven't seen or heard how crazy people can be when drugs are around.//

This is all getting pretty far-fetched, NNS. I can only speak for myself, of course, but if you gave me a job analysing pills I wouldn't immediately start swallowing every sample in sight just because I could. They're chemical compounds, mate, they don't exude some mystical energy field or exotic form of radiation which diminishes the impulse control of people who sit too near them. I think you might be thinking of red kryptonite, but it only works on Kryptonians.

Look, if people aren't into drugs, they're not going to start taking them just because the opportunity presents itself. Why, I bet you could walk around all day with a bag of smack in your pocket and not once be tempted to shoot up. And if you can do it.... what's stopping anybody else? A pineapple says it's not Jeebus.

//The idea is that at a music festival or any other large party to have pill testing stations, with the intention to make those places outside of the law//

Outside the law? Yeah... no. These aren't foreign embassies we're talking about here, NNS. They'll still be covered by the laws of whatever jurisdiction they happen to be in; there'll still be police attending music festivals, close at hand if anything untoward should occur. What I suspect will happen, if pill testing gets the green light, is that there will be a limited and situation specific decriminalisation of possession - note possession, not trafficking, so if you rock up with a big bag of pills you'll still get nicked - in and around pill testing stations. Either as a formal act of Parliament or just at police discretion. And that's it. Because there is no need to chuck the baby out with the bathwater and abrogate the entire statute book just to make pill testing feasible.

//In my opinion that removes the argument of "if" it will end horribly.//

I have zero faith in your psychic abilities, NNS, for what I would hope are self-apparent reasons.

//The only way for this pill stations to be effective is if they are run by a chemist, or at least a trained technician. Both who would be committed to their job and not ready to take money on the side. (By the way that's also not that uncommon for people to do either). This means it'll have to be a higher cost to have the stations, and won't be a sustainable cost for parties or events.//

Okay, so let's say it's one of your outdoor music festivals, running all day and into the night. Let's say 09:00-23:00. That means you'll need your pill testing station manned by at least one person... but let's go ahead and make it two, then they can keep an eye on each other since you're so worried about them turning into mindless drug hoovers the minute they start working... so two people for the duration of the 14 hour festival. Probably break it up into two shifts, but however you do it you've got to fork out for 28 hours worth of pay. And we'll pay them $30 an hour, probably a little on the generous side for a technician, but what the hey, we can afford it. 28 X $30 = $840. Plus taxes and super, which would bump up the figure... let's call it a grand (I could be wrong).

I haven't been to a music festival in many moons. Last time I went to they Big Day out prices were about $100; google tells me they're up to about $165 these days. $1000 / $165 = 6.06 (to 2 d.p.). So about six tickets. That's how many you need to sell to pay your technicians. Six tickets out of the tens of thousands that you will sell.

Now, remind me what you were saying about it being uneconomical?

//What I don't get though is who he's the only one who even replied to the question "how much will this cost."//

Sorry, must have missed it. You're looking at about $25-$30 an hour for your technician; the big variable in costs is what sort of analytical instrumentation/technique they're using. A GC-MS would be the best tool for the job, but a shiny new one of those costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. On the other hand, if they're employing wet chemical methods then the cost could be very low indeed. The devil, as always, is in the detail... and at the moment, we've seen no details.

For crying out loud ! There are decent people in this Nation who through only the fault of Centrelink & other Govt Agencies are doing it tough yet drug abusers get all the publicity in trying to make us feel sorry for them. The funding & effort is wasted on the drug abusers, help the decent Folk.

http://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/keep-it-pg-a-political-wish-list-for-2019-20190111-p50qqq.html
Pill testing gets a mention in my link
But [the Devil Made Me Do It] reality with a sense of fun does too
Reality, small word but a must in a sane world
Kid [young girl] died yesterday, Music Festival Western Sydney
In all probability she was not a drug user full time
Not a nasty piece of work
Pill testing?
Get harsh on the filth/vermin who killed her
Even consider GOVERNMENT sell safe party drugs cheap and in low dosage, at the gate
But stop ignoring the murders taking place every weekend by filth and vermin we do not need

Music festivals should be stopped for a while to see if drug related deaths ease. Most of these festivals don't play music anyway, it's just indoctrinating noise to make young people take drugs.
The festival organisers should be required to have drug overdose insurance.

When you think about it is only one or two who die among thousands who attend. Who can tell me that the supply from which that death causing drug came, was only given to one or two who died. No! Pushers have supplied many with that batch of pills. Were those pills safe and only one unsafe? Not likely!

People react differently to different chemicals in the body. Some become sick others are fine so rather than just test pills you would need to find individuals reaction to the chemicals. The message is clear; don't take chemical substances that is not prescribed by a physician. Even then more people have unknown reactions to prescribed drugs than attend Music Festivals.

Good point Josephus. The same applies to alcohol. That effects different people indifferent ways, from the ones who 'can hold their liquor' to 'one-pot screamers'.

Wouldn't the point be to get people off drugs instead of making drugs "safe"?
Would "safe" drugs still be an offense when driving ?
It's just can of worms opened after can of worms. We need solutions to instil a better mentality. This can not be achieved with perpetual side-stepping of responsibilities & this is what all this is about. The sooner we can people to accept some responsibility the sooner they can rebuild their natural common sense & give unknown substances a big wide berth.

individual you would think so
While it may have changed Australian truck drivers once took a truck load of drugs, between them, every week
We did not socially isolate them, we did not try to stop them
The money to be made selling them the drugs was one reason
The extra long hours they drove [extra loads extra profits] the other

No Billy. Individual is right.

Promoting drugs in the way that pill stations would promote them only encourages their use and sale. If the goal isn't to get rid of the drugs, then the program is deeply flawed and shouldn't be supported.

This isn't about isolating people, but to not encourage more drugs. Drug overdoses are already an issue that likely is part of the cause of the deaths at music festivals. How much worse will it be when more people think their pill is "safe" and they take several.

Go back to your previous stance to get after the drug dealers, pushers, and suppliers. That was something to support. Encouraging more illegal drug use? Tose that with the safe pills stations.

//Promoting drugs in the way that pill stations would promote them only encourages their use and sale.//

Pill testing stations don't promote drugs, you drongo. They perform chemical analyses, not PR.

//If the goal isn't to get rid of the drugs//

Yeah, did you read what I said before about 'impossible utopian fantasies'. We've been trying to get rid of the drugs for the better part of the last century, nothing has worked. The war on drugs has been a miserable failure whose biggest success has been in lining the pockets of drug lords. A bit of an own goal, really.

//Drug overdoses are already an issue that likely is part of the cause of the deaths at music festivals.//

Yes, that's because people don't know the purity of the drugs they're taking. They don't come in nice little boxes with the dose of active ingredient per pill printed on the side. That's something pill testing can help with.

//How much worse will it be when more people think their pill is "safe" and they take several.//

Jesus, you can't really be that thick...

Tell me, NNS, when you have a particularly bad headache do you take a whole punch of paracetamol all at once, because they're 'safe'? Of course not; you take the recommended dosage because taking a whole bunch of 'safe' paracetamol tablets is, in fact, extremely unsafe.

Sola dosis facit venenum, NNS. I suspect most recreational drug users are bright enough to figure that one out.

Taking a drug for a headache is different because you only want enough to relieve the headache. Taking a drug for getting high? Yeah that isn't near the same reason, and popping a few more is just as likely as a drunk not knowing when to quit drinking.

As for the last few replies Toni, the only one that I thought were worth while was about the costs. I didn't have much to add to it, so I didn't reply. It's something I'm trying out for a few posters. (Yourself included). Only reply if they say something worthwhile. Otherwise let the conversation go a different direction or just end if no one else is commited to the discussion.

//Taking a drug for getting high? Yeah that isn't near the same reason, and popping a few more is just as likely as a drunk not knowing when to quit drinking.//

MDMA and alcohol aren't the same thing, mate. The only real similarities are their vector (ingestion) and that people take them for their intoxicating properties. They're different categories of drug, they're metabolised differently, they have different effects on the brain, and they aren't taken in the same way. You come unstuck when you try to compare apples and oranges too closely.

//As for the last few replies Toni, the only one that I thought were worth while was about the costs. I didn't have much to add to it, so I didn't reply. It's something I'm trying out for a few posters. (Yourself included). Only reply if they say something worthwhile.//

Oh for God's sake, get over yourself, princess. If I only bothered to respond to 'worthwhile' posts we'd never be able to have our little chats, and where would the fun in it that be?

I do find it quite amusing though, the way you've gone on at length in the past about placing the most faith in people's first-hand experiences. And yet when faced with comments on the first-hand experience of somebody who a) has experience as analytical technician, b) has a better working knowledge of the Australian legal system than you, c) has experience of experimenting with various drugs in his youth - but you disagree with those comments - well, then you dismiss them out of hand because they're unworthy.

But I guess you're just a bit upset because I questioned your psychic abilities. Would you like a hanky?

TONY, the only way you can get the emphasis of your point across is by insulting other posters. Cut the insults and make your point clear and your ideas might be better accepted. We are here to discuss a problem and maybe expose a solution. By insulting others you intend to make them feel small, because in your mind you have the dominant answer. That is verbal bullying!

Josephus,

Do you actually read the gibberish put out by Toni Lavis? I don't.

Thank you Josephes. However I wouldn't put too much concern over what Toni says. If it changes where he says something of value, or tries to be clear instead of trying to get under people's skin, then great. Otherwise, just learn from my mistake, and don't pay him any concern.

To Toni. If you want to give your experiences popping pills, then go ahead. But unless it's insightful in some way, I'd recommend against it. Admitting that you take pills recreationally has only harmed your case, on just about any subject matter. Insightful in this case would be in clearing up why taking pills wouldn't have the same behavior with other drugs where taking too much is common.

People don't overdose for health benefits, or to be responsible with an illegal substance, they do it because they want the high, the low, or any other effect to last longer or be stronger. It doesn't take a psychic to know this.

I'm trying to think about where all this leads.

http://www.news.com.au/technology/science/human-body/colour-change-drug-tests-could-save-aussie-lives/news-story/c3a8a465066e527fc6ff03d439d051c1

http://www.harmreductionaustralia.org.au/

Everything these days is capitalist or evidence based.
And so once an organisation like harmreductionaustralia exists, like any business it needs successes and growth to remain viable.

http://www.harmreductionaustralia.org.au/what-is-harm-reduction/

"The International Harm Reduction Association (IHRA) defines harm reduction as the ‘policies, programmes and practices that aim to reduce the harms associated with the use of psychoactive drugs in people unable or unwilling to stop. The defining features are the focus on the prevention of harm, rather than on the prevention of drug use itself, and the focus on people who continue to use drugs.’

Harm reduction has been a principle of Australian governments’ approach to drug use for several decades, beginning in the 1980s when the first needle syringe program was first introduced."

So it's an international organisation seeking results.
How would they measure results?

To my mind they want an increase on the 2.1% of the 1.7bn illicit drugs budget spent or harm reduction.

- But I look at the prior news article, it says the kits cost $25, so what is the government planning to do? spend $25 everytime someone wants to use illegal drugs?

"Cities like Vienna, Madrid and Zurich allow people to anonymously drop off their drugs for safe and accurate testing"

- This is obviously what they want -

This to me only pushes straight into the hands of governments selling and regulating the drugs.

If you spend $25 for testing every tablet, it would cost less to just produce safe drugs themselves than pay such a cost to test them all.

What else are you going to do?
Make the drug dealers pay a 'pill testing tax'?

On another slide (in the showcase area on the homepage) they say every $1 spend on needle programs saves $27 in health costs and lost productivity;

I wonder how they calculate that?

[Cont]

Where does it lead?

Lets say they identify 'bad drugs'?
Obviously then they would make more effort to identify the seller;
- above that of someone selling 'safe' drugs -

(I suppose that would promote cleaner drugs)

But if they keep detecting bad drugs then what?
Then the government decides it should sell it instead?

They could even flood these events with bad drugs themselves to make the legislation pass, though it does sound a little conspiratorial I'll admit.

And in all this, where's the personal responsibility factor?
The 'If you play stupid games' you win stupid prizes' clause?

It seems to me that this is a program that ultimately want the costs associated with some peoples stupid choices shared by everyone.

They try to justify it by saying if you don't pay for this program it only costs you more in the long run.

It feels like a stitch up...

- But once again, it is young peoples lives -
(And no I'm not buying into the narrative but I am aware of the issues)

Can anyone provide answers or valid reasons that justify the consumption of mind altering drugs including unknown substances ?
Is it boredom ? If so, then what is the boredom due, simplemidedness or is it just a lack of self-discipline, a cop-out ?
I can't help thinking that an intelligent human being would not take such drugs let alone unknown substances. Is making such drugs legal really the only way to sort out the gene pool ?

Toni, the war on drugs is working as hundreds of millions of illegal drug doses are being taken of the streets every year.

The toxicologist that examined the drugs the young dead 19 year old took at the music festival, said, that particular pill would have been considered safe. It was her reaction in the heat and lack of water that contributed to her death. If the pill is tested and deemed safe and a person dies from the drug, then the person testing the drug could be considered culpable for the death. This is the case with legal drugs, if a Doctor prescribes a drug that kills a patient he is then liable for the death.

Individual,

I would say that there is no 'justification’ for drug or alcohol use. The problem is that people cannot cope with the vagaries of life, and they seek to either dull their senses or try to make themselves happier by altering their minds. “Intelligent” human beings don't need artificial stimulants or depressants. Unrealistic expectations, social engineering, mass hysteria, bad or disinterested parenting all lead to people feeling miserable and useless. The pressures on young people, particularly, are horrendous: political correctness; homosexuality; gender confusion; Marxist induced self-hatred and constant slurs against their white, Western culture, are all designed to break the spirit and exert control. And, of course, the people manipulating the young are the same people who want hard drugs legalised, and the illegals drugs tested so that they can increase their control. Most young people, who haven't had an 'old fashioned’ upbringing are totally unequipped to deal with the pressures; they are easily exploited.

//Admitting that you take pills recreationally has only harmed your case, on just about any subject matter.//

I don't TAKE pills recreationally, NNS. And I didn't say that I do. I have taken pills in the past, many years ago, when I was young and foolish.

You're a real nasty piece of work, aren't you? Forget about trying to rebut any of my arguments, just go straight for the outright slander.

Since you've got the knives out, I don't see any point in continuing this discussion further. I'll just take comfort in the fact that pill testing is looking increasingly likely in NSW, largely because they take advice from people with actual real-life experience at the coal face, rather than clueless Yanks who have zero experience with any the issues relating to pill testing and are therefore forced to get creative and make it all up as they go along (and it really, really shows) - and who are completely insulated from domestic policy decisions Australia, so consequences be dammed and who cares who many kids have to sacrificed to their ideology.

//The toxicologist that examined the drugs the young dead 19 year old took at the music festival, said, that particular pill would have been considered safe. It was her reaction in the heat and lack of water that contributed to her death.//

Can we get a link to this toxicologist's report?

In the meantime, the Coroner has yet to hand down his report. Until all the data is in, I will reserve judgement on specific cases.

If pill testing is implemented the downfall of society will be complete. At least as it is presently, the gene pool question is addressed.

“One of the biggest misconceptions around pill-testing is that it will portray taking drugs as safe,” Dr Bright told news.com.au.

“Harm reduction workers always say there is no safe level of drug consumption.

“We know there’s concern that pill-testing sites will endorse drug use,” said Dr Bright. “Young people know using drugs is risky. We have research that demonstrates this. We also have research that shows young people are trying to find out what’s in their pills.
“When you walk into a festival and you see there’s a pill-testing service with information about different kinds of drugs on the market, it makes the risk real — it turns the perception of risk into real risk.”

Studies have found Australians are among the world’s leading consumers of ecstasy, with a 2016 AIHW report finding that 2.1 million — or 10.9 per cent — of Australians aged 14 and over have used the drug at least once.
Ms Berejiklian argued pill-testing doesn’t help when it comes to overdosing on pure MDMA, and that it gives young people a “false sense of security” if their capsule or tablet is found to be free of other substances.

At Canberra’s Groovin’ The Moo festival last April, for example, where pill-testing was first trialled in Australia, harm reduction workers identified several pills and capsules with potent levels of MDMA.

[cont]

David Caldicott, an emergency doctor who led the Canberra trial, said users were never assured it’s okay to take illicit substances.
“When a person first enters the pill testing area, they are met by a ’harm reduction worker’. This person explains the pill testing process and advises the patron that there is no safe level of drug consumption,” Mr Caldicott told the ABC.
“You will not be told at any stage that your drug is safe.”
Dr Bright said a truly successful approach to pill-testing requires a collaborative effort from everybody involved — the festival organisers, the state government, police, event co-ordinators and harm reduction services.
“To have pill-testing out on its own is not the best idea — it needs to be linked to paramedical services,” he said.
Achieving this could most effectively minimise the risk of tragedies like that of Ms Ross-King.
Dr Bright also set up a covert pill-testing station at a Victorian music festival in 2017. He said most people disposed of their drugs after tests determined they were potentially harmful.
“We also identified some other drugs like 2CE and 2CP,” he said. “And people responded saying they were really grateful to have that information, saying they’d only take half.
“Success isn’t solely in discarding the drugs. It’s also having people understand what they might be in for.”

“When a person first enters the pill testing area, they are met by a ’harm reduction worker’. This person explains the pill testing process and advises the patron that there is no safe level of drug consumption,”

This sounds as if pill testing is already available. Or, the doctor hasn't heard of the 'tense' rules in grammar. Does he mean that's what 'would' happen if there was pill testing. In that case, he can't predict what anyone would actually do.

Which brings up the question, how can we even know if drug users would use the service? Would people stupid enough to use drugs have the desire or the wit to take the chance that their 'high' would be taken from them - if it would be taken from them?

No medical aid for drug overdose..
Test positive for illicit substances & there goes your job & unemployment benefit.
Problem will solve itself in no time. No taxpayer funding required, give to genuine needy instead.
And, if we vote in a third party in the upcoming election to keep the Govt in check to properly manage the economy even the needy will dwindle in numbers. All good all round. Anyone have a problem with no problems ?

Amid continuing hysterical calls by the chattering class for pill testing, an expert this morning advised ABC News Radio that drug testing takes several days, and the pissy 'testing' the condoners of drug use want is not accurate.

//drug testing takes several days//

Using what technique?

Stop wasting our Tax Dollars on those stupid enough to ingest such substances.
Focus on the economy & a healthier mentality.

Individual,

Perhaps they think they are investing wisely. There has been a suggestion that governments want people to be stoned to keep them happy. Happy people don't notice what the politicians are up to.

ttbn,
I have long wondered how much longer it'll be before corrupt/incompetent australian politicians receive the treatment that gets dished out in some countries. However, I think the real sinister ones are the bureaucrats in the background. They need to be exposed so they can be held accountable. We need to go back to case numbers & case officers.