This year, around twenty thousand Indigenous people were enrolled in university courses. Around three thousand will graduate, bringing the total to about fifty eight thousand. Of those, more than a quarter will have completed post-graduate courses.

Some universities offer Indigenous-focussed courses, some only mainstream courses: the great majority of Indigenous students, perhaps contrary to popular belief, enrol and graduate in mainstream courses. But the two institutional pathways have had very different fortunes over the past twenty five years. While enrolments have tripled since 1994 (and doubled since 2007), the growth in student numbers at those universities with an Indigenous-course focus has barely doubled, those with a mainstream focus have risen far more quickly, by almost five times: Newcastle University’s Indigenous numbers have risen by a massive factor of seven since 1994, and Griffith University’s by nearly six-fold.

Indigenous-focussed courses have been offered for more than forty years now: in the early seventies, the assumption seemed to have been that Indigenous students couldn’t really handle the rigour of mainstream courses, but needed ‘adapted’ courses, usually shorter than degree-length. But very quickly, universities tended to approach the issue differently: given that few Indigenous students were completing Year 12 back then, and that the Indigenous student body was overwhelmingly mature-aged, yet were attracted to mainstream courses, some universities offered intensive preparation courses, usually of term- or semester-length, and comprehensive support services, so that students could slot into standard, mainstream courses and be supported - and support each other - throughout their studies.

The two approaches had drastically different dynamics: Indigenous-focussed courses needed specific, long-term course writers and tended to be separatist in orientation; mainstream courses (and support services) tended to be more inclusive, with Indigenous students mixing happily with non-Indigenous colleagues. Some courses - teaching and nursing, for example - were necessarily mainstream: attempts to set up shorter, Indigenous-focussed courses in these fields attracted few students, and usually foundered, sometimes without producing a single graduate. Yet

[TBC]

What job sector is the most commonly targetted course ? What relevance to life & economy in indigenous communities do these courses have ?

How many centuries have to pass before people with a smidgen of original inhabitants’ blood in their veins will cease to be 'indigenous’? Most of them are more white than black.

Joe couldn't, or wouldn't, tell me why the educational activities of a small group of people he has singled out are of importance. He also denied that he practises identify politics. Yeah, right.

Dear Joe,

It's so good to hear that Indigenous Students are doing so
well in mainstream courses. It is
important that this be encouraged so that they are able to
blend into society at large and to fit in. I can't comment
on the Indigenous-focused courses. I don't know what they
entail. Perhaps you could tell us more about them and how those
courses would practically help Indigenous students? There must
be a reason why students are not attracted to those courses.

Joe thanks, we need good news but it is striking how your thread has highlighted something very different
Some WASP could well do with education too
As in my view education is the best hope for mankind your thread is great news
Just a small,openly racist few words? maybe

[continued]

Yet the push by staff in Indigenous-focussed courses continued, at least until about 1998-2000: some initiatives were made to offer full-degree courses with an Indigenous focus, but non-Indigenous enrolments in these courses usually outnumbered Indigenous enrolments, and in some years, no Indigenous people enrolled in them at all - unless you count re-badging courses with new course codes and sliding students from one to another as ‘new students’. Incredibly, some Indigenous university staff still believe that ‘Blacks should do Black courses, Whites should do White courses.’ One suspects that, if Apartheid was ever explained to such staff, they would brighten up and say, “Hey, that’s a good idea !”

Most universities seemed to toy with Indigenous-focussed courses between 1990 and 2008, before phasing them out. Universities with an Indigenous course focus started phasing out their lower-level - Certificate and Associate Diploma - courses between 1994 and 1998, with (one suspects) an expectation that Indigenous student numbers would inevitably decline - as if the gesture to offer university study to Indigenous people had more or less had its day, and amid sighs of regret shared with a gullible senior management, that brave but fruitless initiative would now wither away: but happily, instead, Aboriginal Culture courses would now be taught to ALL students regardless.

But other forces were at work: Year 12 numbers rose rapidly after 1999-2000, and now are many times the earlier rates. A high proportion of those successful students have come on to tertiary study, the equivalent of more than half of the relevant age-group. Total enrolments have tripled since the bad old days earlier this century when the out-dated model was still dominant. The vast majority of Indigenous students - perhaps 95 % - are now enrolling in mainstream courses, and that won’t change any time soon.

Graduates have strong role model effects, so one major reason for the healthy upsurge in Indigenous university numbers is probably the impact of previous graduates. And that can only grow.

Joe

Ttbn, people honestly identify as Indigenous: very often, the only relations they've ever known are similarly Indigenous. No, they may not be 'full-blood' but especially in the South, people have forged an adapted identity, since the early days, which they call 'Aboriginal' or 'Indigenous'. Nobody thought of them as anything else. That's how it is. That may be changing since the War, with so much inter-marriage. Get used to it.

Joe

Dearest Foxy,

In the early days, say 1973 up to the turn of the century, many courses were 'adapted' and written especially for Indigenous people - encapsulated Indigenous people, one could say. But the great majority have always enrolled in standard, mainstream courses - teachers, nurses, lawyers, dentists, doctors, conservation managers, etc. After all, there is 'Teaching', not necessarily 'Indigenous Teaching'; and 'Nursing', not 'Indigenous Nursing'; 'Medicine' rather than 'Indigenous Medicine' which involves magic, ritual, spells, etc., which most Indigenous people wanting to be doctors would rather avoid.

In colonial empires, 'adapted education' was a big deal - racist, limited and encapsulating. In Africa, the great majority of Africans tried to have nothing to do with such racist initiatives. Missions also fought like hell against them, since they knew that they blocked people from genuine skills. The 'leaders' in Indigenous education here have yet to learn those dreadful lessons. And the great majority of Indigenous students are streets ahead of their 'leaders' in their political maturity, and want nothing to do with such 'adapted' courses.

Love,

Joe

It's so good to hear that Indigenous Students are doing so
well in mainstream courses
Foxy,
We've heard that for some decades now, where are all these well-doing employed now ?

Dear Joe,

Thank You for replying to my questions and for
clearing things up for me. It makes sense that
mainstream courses are pursued that students
find relevant and that they're interested in.

Individual,

The jobs that our Indigenous people have reached
vary greatly - and they go way back.
They have contributed so much to the nation.
Here are just a few from various
professions. You may recognise some of them:

Noel Pearson, Neville Bonner, Linda Burney, Kath Walker,
Pat O'Shane, Ernie Dingo, Samantha Harris, Tanya Orman,
David Unaipon, Cathy Freeman, Bronwyn Bancroft, Adam
Goodes, Lowitja O'Donoghue, Lionel Rose, Anita Heiss,
Mick Dodson, Evonne Goolagong Cawley, Lionel Rose,
Albert Namatjira, Emily Kame Kngwarreye, Archie Roach,
David Gulpilil, Eddie Mabo, Vincent Lingiari,Kevin Gilbert,
Jack Davis, Sally Morgan, and many others.

There's much more on the web.

Individual,

You asked about jobs and the Indigenous...

I forgot to add that the Australian Indigenous Doctor's
Association has reported that 204 medical doctors are now
registered to practice (up from 90 in 2004). And there are
currently 310 Indigenous students studying medicine (as of
October 28, 2014). Probably more today.

Hi Individual & Foxy,

I imagine that communities need people with all manner of skills - accountants, surveyors, agriculturalists and agronomists, foresters, soil scientists, hydraulic engineers, mineralogists, marine scientists, etc., etc. i.e. a multitude of people with mainstream skills. That's if communities are genuine in wanting to do something with the enormous resources at their disposal, rather than wanting to stay on welfare for life. IF.

But the vast majority of mainstream Indigenous graduates have grown up and studied in the cities, and they will most likely stay and work in the cities. That's where the Indigenous population shift is moving to.

Vale Bonita Mabo. :(

ttbn,
>How many centuries have to pass before people with a smidgen of
>original inhabitants’ blood in their veins will cease to be 'indigenous’?

That's really the wrong question, for they may never cease to be indigenous, but it will eventually cease to be an issue.

Dear Aidan,

I certainly hope that you're right about it ceasing to be
an issue. Although, take the case of "migrants" -
no matter how hard some of them may think of themselves
as "Aussies," if they have more complicated names and
surnames they'll still be judged as "foreigners." Even
the ones who were born here. My husband was asked in
a public hospital "Do you need an interpreter?" (he's
got a foreign surname). To which he replied in perfect
English - "Why, doesn't the doctor speak English?"

Good to hear that Indigenous students are doing so well with University studies. Belly said "As in my view education is the best hope" could not agree more. Education brings enlightenment, and through enlightenment we get rid of fear and superstition. Education takes away ignorance, and that is a very good thing.

Yes, modern indigenous societies need well trained professionals.
Indy "where are all these well-doing (Indigenous) employed now?" Jut as you are so pleased to hear that Indigenous students are doing so well, I am sure your are just as pleased that over 200 are now medical doctors. I'm sure that must put you over the Moon. Don't have to be Einstein to know what you are trying to fish out.

My wife and (step)daughter are talking about getting their DNA done as a Xmas present, saying it cost only $79 and totally painless, you send away for the kit. Wants to know if they have any Huna Muna, or Hindu La La blood, quaint terms for Orientals and Indians.

communities need people with all manner of skills
Loudmouth,
Exactly, all this higher education is fine for medical specialists etc. but for day to day running of a community ordinary workers are needed. As there is no hype for odinary work people don't aspire to it hence the work not getting done.
People like Foxy are so caught up in the belief that higher education is simply the pinnacle. It can be & is for a very few but the majority are simply hanging in at some pointless public service desk & nothing gets done at great expense.
I have spent 40 years alongside educated people & all I can say that the number of useful ones were outnumbered 100-1 by the inept.
I renmote communities the menial jobs pay less than unemployment benefit so it is not hard for a thinking person to work out the situation. That's when outside contractors get imported a massive cost to the taxpayers.
I'm all in favour of as much education as possible but it must be appliable in daily life & it must result in services that people are prepared to pay for not simply on the public service payroll
with no accountability. In Qld Campbell Newman tried to sort this out by sacking the wrong people.

Hi Individual,

Yes, you're mostly right, but 'communities' (writing entirely hypothetically, assuming they'll keep existing) need teachers, nurses, accountants, specialists, agriculturalists, geologists, etc., as well as mechanics, electricians, carpenters, etc., etc., to survive and thrive. But not likely to happen.

I was just thinking about one 'community' where we lived for some years: back then, in the seventies, it had a population of around 150, and a broad economic base: grapes, lucerne, sheep, grain, stone fruit and citrus orchards. Bit by bit that base was dismantled, the grapes and stone fruit and lucerne ripped out and replaced by almonds. 8,000 acres and they had to rip out the 300 acres of productive activity and replace them with almonds, employing two blokes instead of twenty.

So the population withered away, and almost everybody was on welfare, CDEP. Told to wind up the CDEP program in about 2007, everybody was 'paid out' for holiday pay, superannuation, back pay, sick leave pay, etc., and the debt (maybe a couple of million) set against the farm. The government department which had to cover the debt, DEEWR, stopped funding the water for the almonds (and maybe took out the pump too) and the almonds all died. By 2012, the population was down to a couple of families, (only one household with dogs the last time I saw the place, back in 2012) with maybe a half-dozen people. Yes, everybody could have chipped in to keep the pump going, but no.

In the last Census, there were supposed to be 38 people there. Maybe many people who had left, still were recorded as being there, but no. It makes you wonder about how reliable the ABS Census figures are for remote communities generally. Another community, up in the Flinders, seems to be totally abandoned, although there are probably a couple of families, old people, still there.

But

[TBC]

[continued]

.... contribution for the common good is not a strong point of Aboriginal 'communities'. Neither is reciprocity, except of course within families and clans, and (by definition in a corrupt, patronage-oriented, rent-seeking society) between cronies. So it's likely that the populations in remote 'communities' is crashing. Others would know far more about the northern 'communities', but I suspect that people have abandoned out-stations ('homelands') to move to the larger communities - and are moving from there to local towns, and from there to the cities. In Adelaide already, I think there are many people not just from our North-West but from NT 'communities' as well.

But those poor buggers are so far behind where they need to be to tap into the environment that they're moving to. They tend to be illiterate, with poor English, poor knowledge of this new world round them. So they can't know the value of education, let alone how to get into employment, even if they were inclined to. Getting their kids through school might take another couple of generations, another fifty or sixty years at least (if at all), so another generation before their kids (and grand-kids) move into higher education (if at all). So the horrible reality, thanks to long-term policies of shielding 'communities' from education and employment, is that, at the earliest, those populations may be more or less indigent, and continually behind the play, until 2100 or later.

Meanwhile, 'southerners', with far higher levels of education and history of interaction with the mainstream population, will keep moving to the cities and, even those from rural towns, keep seizing opportunities in urban environments. Of course, many will try to stay on welfare and keep their kids from getting a decent education, and into employment.

So the majority of 'southerners' will eventually take up opportunities and find positive and productive roles in the mainstream. Some will keep flogging the grievance and separatist agenda since there will still be paid positions (I nearly wrote 'work'; oops) in the multitude of organisations. All of that up-the-wrong-creek stuff willstill be happening long after I'm gone.

Come to think of it, there is no big deal in people attending universities these days, given the useless degrees they are selling people who can barely read and write, following their equally useless time at state schools, with teachers like the idiot at Woodville High (Adelaide) who Facebooked that she was going to ensure that none of her pupils would ever vote Liberal because of her brainwashing. She even embarrassed her own commissars who, like all communists, like to white-ant society as quietly as possible. Her sort of trashy teachers were out in red shirts in front of parliament, bellowing their intention to go on strike this Thursday because they have been denied some demand or other that interests them more than the job they are supposed to be doing.

People like Joe are punting for university attendance for their favourite people only so that they can be further brainwashed into being an even bigger nuisance to society than they are now.

The first important fact in this is that attaining year 12 actually means nothing these days, except as proof that you attended school for 12 years. Unlike in my day when you did exams and were given a score on your year 10 certificate ( A,B,C,D,F) these days everyone gets a certificate whether they are literate or not.
As Joe says, many city aboriginal kids are now attending Uni and a good percentage are gaining a degree, but very few in the areas that are needed, and those who do become doctors , nurses, lawyers etc. never work remote.
I will never forget my first experience with a Sydney born and raised so called aboriginal doctor, from a well known family, who came to Darwin to gain experience. Not only was she a poor doctor, but she was frightened by traditional people and had absolutely no idea how to communicate with them, or any idea of their life styles. She had to constantly get help from the old nurses.
TBC

The reality in the north is different, and not just for indigenous kids. The standard of education is lower than in the cities, for all kids, because teachers try to cater to those who come to school unprepared and with poor communication skills and can’t allow the curriculum to be too advanced or a high percentage of their class will fail. This leaves the brighter kids doing work below national standards. I’m currently doing maths catch up with a grandchild and have really noticed the difference.
The other problem we have up here is the lack of motivation for aboriginal kids to get higher education because they are surrounded by countrymen inJobs paying $60,000 $70,000 per year without having any formal education qualifications at all. Or even experience in the area. I have a niece earning $70,000 as a project officer developing nursing manuals for health workers in the largest aboriginal health organisation in the Kimberley and she doesn’t have a single day of health training! And they wonder why indigenous health is not improving at the rate required.

Big Nana,

Your experiences are always are always interesting and much more valuable than those of the politically motivated twits on OLO.

Hi Joe,

I was raised in a small community (village) in the Orange/Wellington district of NSW, maybe two or three hundred in the district. A small locality, with two shops, post office, one room primary school, two churches, gotta have churches and a railway station, with a station master and assistant, even a tennis court, a pub not to far up the line, and a couple of dozen houses scatted about. People mostly worked on sheep properties or for the railways. Good little locality, it was a thriving close knit community you could say. Idyllic life for us kids.
One by one things went, farms got bigger with less hands, the railway cut back. The two old sisters who ran the PO all their life died, so the post office closed. The steam trains were replaced by diesel, passenger services stopped, station staff had long gone, eventually the timber station was demolished. It all went, shops, churches, school, even the tennis court, and sadly the people went as well. I suppose that is how thing evolve.

A community does not have to exist in isolation, we have a strong Maori community here in Brisbane, as we did in Sydney, based on my wife's hapu/iwi, but including others as well. Keeping in contact, socialising, supporting each other in times of need/crises, advice/giving etc. The family bond is extremely strong, when we moved in we were flooded with offers of help. The other day a nephew died in NZ, a niece needed to return home for the tangi, without question koha (gift) was given, wife chucked in $200, and niece was on the next plane back to NZ. All done the traditional way through Messenger and Facebook, with the traditional bank transfer required. (Joe, you know what I mean by nephews/nieces).

Friday, a nephew aged about 25, rang "Aunty" to seek approval, he and his partner have just had their first child, a boy, nephew needed Aunties approval to allow their family name to be hyphenated with the mothers family name on the birth certificate, not by law, but by tradition.

Ttbn,

I take offence as being called 'politically-motivated'. Never mind.

Yes, there is a hell of a long way to go, but the point I was trying to make was that, sooner or later, simply to keep their heads above water, everybody has to get a decent education, Indigenous people, migrants, refugees, right-handers - yes, given the corruption and croneyism and familism in Indigenous organisations, no-work, no-skill jobs seem to be abundant - but (as many people have been complaining for decades) surely that situation cannot continue forever ?

After all, what ghastly future do people have if all they can aspire to is either staying on welfare, or getting a no-work, no-skills job through a family member ? Surely people are entitled to aim a bit higher ? Yes, the vast Indigenous Industry is in the way and continually offers its ghastly attractions.

Yes, there are far too few Indigenous students in STEM courses, in agriculture and conservation management, even in business and commerce. There are far too few male students. Yes, some universities are performing dismally in attracting Indigenous students and their attrition rates are abominable.

As for quality, I've known many brilliant graduates, teachers, layers, vets, etc., most of whom are now in mainstream employment. On that subject, there seems to be a perverse notion in many Indigenous organisations that the poorer the graduate and the more useless their course (i.e. therefore cocking a snook at mainstream employment), the more reliable they are in 'working' in the Industry, and the more rapidly they rise in their particular organisation, including universities.

Cheers,

Joe

Hi Paul,

Yes indeed, 'community' can be positive and supportive, but Maori society is far more systematically work-oriented, given that traditional Maori society was based on agriculture, a long-term work ethic, consciously-vibrant communities. The foraging ethic is more short-term, geared to daily needs rather long-term planning, far more family- and clan-oriented rather than anything above that level. And that ethic has often been carried over into a completely different situation of plentiful welfare provided by State agencies. And royalties provided by mining companies and national parks. So far less obligation to seek work. So less urgency about getting kids to school. After all .....

It seems that the Labor Party has gone cool on the idea of a 'Voice' (as if people don't have a multitude of 'voices' now, and as if a separate 'voice' in parliament wouldn't turn into a third, unelected, house, with power to disrupt any proposed legislation and no responsibilities towards its workability). Perhaps Labor is twigging to the separatist agenda inherent in much 'Recognition' talk, and can imagine where it might all end up - perhaps in some ghastly neo-Apartheid scenario demanded by the captains of the Indigenous Industry, in order to maintain a large section of the population in lifelong welfare, funded by the taxpayer. Maybe I'm wrong but is that what hot-shots in the Industry really want for their 'own' people ?

Cheers,

Joe

“I take offence as being called 'politically-motivated'. Never mind.”

I don't mind at all, Joe. Please feel free to take offence whenever you feel the need.

University graduates, I read recently, are suffering most from unemployment because they do Mickey Mouse courses not needed in the workplace. If kids are hoping to to ‘keep their heads above water with a decent education’, they are not going to get the right education in Australia. Only this morning, I heard an Asian man saying that he had sent his kids back to his country of origin to get a decent education - something that is no longer available here. Some time ago there was a story about African parents in Australia sending their kids back to Africa because they weren't getting the discipline and training expected in Australian schools.

Only she'll-be-right-mate Ocker Australians are apathetic enough to ignore the political brainwashing and lack of proper education in our state schools and taxpayer-funded universities. They, like too many other Australians, seem to be totally unaware of the deep s--t this country is in on all fronts.

You might have known “brilliant teachers” in the past, but the ones getting overpaid for their small abilities these days are scratching to stay one day ahead of the kids they are supposed to be educating.

All young Australians, irrespective of race and background, are severely handicapped by what our idiot political class has wreaked upon us in their own pig-ignorance and lack of ability.

The Economist did an article on Australian universities.
It stated that "Australia's universities like its wine,
are decent, dependable, but seldom excellent."

The Conversation asked the experts to respond. Here
is the response:

http://theconversation.com/are-australian-universities-seldom-excellent-the-experts-respond-1535

Foxy,
It didn't mention that the Universities are profit/career orientated for the people in charge & therefore become attractive for overseas students who are literally guaranteed a degree for a certain amount of dollars.

Individual,

According to the Vice-Chancellor of Monash University,
"We have both students and academics from all over
the world." They wouldn't come here unless our
universities were of a high calibre. He also stated
that "For many positions that we advertise we have
stellar applicants from across the globe." Which
means that the universities reputations are going
forward in leaps and bounds in teachning, research,
and innovation.

Melbourne University is in the top 50 institutions of
learning globally.

That is why both international students and academics
are attracted to studying and working here.

Foxy,
Of course the vice chancelor would say that, on probably a million a year all up.

Dear Foxy,

Like me, you probably suspect that there is a way of attacking something or someone WITHOUT mentioning them, or without straight-out dog-whistling - for example, indirectly having a go at, say, Indigenous participation at universities, NOT by sinking the boot in directly, but by criticising some side-issue or peripheral aspect of, say, higher education generally, e.g. its quality and pointlessness.

Whether the quality of higher education is good or bad, is not really relevant to the issue of Indigenous participation. I don't want to accuse anyone of indirectly opposing Indigenous participation, I'm obviously not that sort of person, but one implication from attacking HE quality in this case is that, somehow, Indigenous participation has maybe contributed to some hypothetical decline in HE quality and maybe should be discouraged. After all, Blackfellas belong in the bush.

Indigenous people have been living in the cities since Day One, particularly since the War. Indigenous population movement is TO the cities, much as racists on both Left and Right would wish it otherwise, that if only all those Blackfellas would bugger off to the sticks and leave the cities to their rightful, civilised, occupants: us powerful and superior people. Not going to happen, folks.

To live properly in cities, people need employment, and for that, they need skills; and for those, they need either trade skills or professional skills. Indigenous people are getting professional skills through higher education. Yes, many get sucked into the welfare-oriented Indigenous Industry and its plethora of no-result organisations, but many try to escape its deadly embrace.

The concept of Indigenous 'community' is , on the whole, dead: it never really got off the ground. That leaves the individual - in the cities - and the family and clan - in the rural and remote areas - to choose their respective futures. Indigenous participation in higher education can only grow, and rapidly, as urban people stay and work in the cities in rapidly growing numbers.

Thank you, dear Foxy,

Love,

Joe

Joe,

You concentration - bordering on obsession - with a very small section of Australian society seems to have loosened your screws. Your latest post, concerning your ideas of indirect criticism of aboriginal affairs, is paranoid. Perhaps it is time for you to yield to someone like Big Nana, who comes across as someone actually living the experience.

They wouldn't come here unless our
universities were of a high calibre.
Foxy,
The parallel to this is our welfare system.
Of course for the really deserving the entry requirements are on the verge of impossible.

Hi Joe, could not agree more. Its outrageous but not new, that the extreme oppose universal education to the highest level for all, tell me why. It was not just directed at indigenous people, but at the working class as well, and women. Any group these bigoted mob seen as being unworthy had to be excluded from what was considered only a right for the elite of society.

I only have 2 direct granddaughters on my wife's side, all the rest are boys. One of the girls, 12 years old, was 'Dux' of her Year 6 class (school) last year. Asked her what she wanted to be, a nurse or a vet, because she loves animals. The other granddaughter also 12, does well above average at school. The boys are are about average, but the oldest moko just turning 21, has finished his boilermaker apprenticeship, tells me he wants to buy a home unit on the Sunshine Coast as an investment, he has savings, but we might have to help him out with the deposit. The only car he has had, is the Holden (2006) his Mum and Dad bought for him when he was 18, does all his own work on his car, its been a good car, does not pay for servicing and repairs, he looks after it and he's not bad when it comes to the work on it, so its a good saving for him.

Ttbn,

Your concentration - bordering on obsession - with a very small section of Australian society seems to have loosened your screws. Why are you obsessed with attacking Indigenous people seizing opportunities ? What's it matter to you, after all it's such a small population, why worry about it ?

So is that all you've got ?

Regardless of the quality of Australian higher education , or global warming, or ocean pollution, or any other side-issue, Indigenous people will, like anybody else, seize opportunities. Perhaps half of the population from now on will choose higher education. Sorry, Ttbn.

Any other complaints ? You could go on about how spurious Indigenous identity is, I you like. Or that people must be doing only Mickey Mouse courses. Or that the numbers are highly inflated. Or what's it matter, anyway ?

Just trying to help :)

Joe

"Why are you obsessed with attacking Indigenous people seizing opportunities ?"

That's really pathetic, Joe. Is 'that all you've got".

I am not attacking indigenous people; if you want to use the word 'attack', I'm attacking you for your silly nonsense and identity politics. Indigenous people don't actually need you, Joe. Sorry. They are perfectly capable of doing it for themselves, if they wish to; and they obviously have. Stop trying to live other peoples' lives for them. You are the one making them look fragile and useless when they are not.

Individual,

The fact that our universities are highly regarded on the
global level speaks volumes. And both academics and students
can afford to go elsewhere - yet they still choose to come here.
That also speaks volumes. You should not speak about something
you know nothing about.

Dear Joe,

I love reading your posts and those of Big Nana.
I learn so much from them.
Thank You both!

Ttbn,

Love that definitional slide ! I wrote about your 'attacking Indigenous people seizing opportunities', not 'attacking Indigenous people' per se, as you claim. My point actually was precisely that Indigenous people are utilising higher education to become LESS reliant on outsiders like you and me, on the 'Left' or the Right, and thank god for that. They're living their own lives as they see fit. They don't need our advice on how to do that.

So, is that all you've got ? One 'hooray !' would have been sufficient. What, no hoorays at all ?

Cheers,

Joe

I am fascinated at the la la land you people live in.
Let's get a few things clear before we set off for this journey to la la land.
Firstly, the level of education in this country IS rubbish, dig a little further and the stats are there just below the surface.
The system doesn't want them too close to the surface as it will show them up for what they truly are, INEPT!
Secondly, if there is not consensus on a topic, it is not absolute in only one direction, so it is we have conflicting opinions about the level of education in this country.
Not to mention survey after survey have shown Aussies to be amongst the dumbest in the world.
Thirdly, stop referring to Aussies as 'indigenous'.
Either we are ALL indigenous, because we are born here, or we're not.
Which is it going to be?
I will not relent on hammering home this point to some very arrogant, petulant, childish, selfish people who insist on putting down ALL the other Aussies who don't happen to have an abo ancestor in their family history.
There are NO abo's in uni's, OK?
So stop trying to big-note yourselves, your just embarrassing yourselves and your people.
Me and the other 20 odd million Aussies think you're a joke by continually pushing this BS up-hill.
One thing I have learned about OLO, there is an unwillingness to see the truth and an even greater resistance to speak it.
We have one group who see the world through rose coloured glasses and believe 'the glass is always half full', and if you hold to that attitude and mind set, things will become nice and rosey.
They refuse to see the truth, or that the glass varies from full to empty, and that most of the time it is empty.
So it is that I cannot stand by and allow people to mislead others naively or for whatever reason, and so I have to speak up.
With the like minded, open minded, thinking people, I find myself Boyd with hope going forward.

//I (individual) have spent 40 years alongside educated people & all I can say that the number of useful ones were outnumbered 100-1 by the inept.//

I assume Indy the useful one were the "educated people", glad there were 99 other inept's like yourself to keep you company for 40 years.

You continually prattle on about educated people as being mostly useless, public servants of no value types, and it your type (I assume uneducated) that are the real savours of the world. Its more likely that because of your lack of education you are resentful and jealous of those who are educated.

Hi ALTRAV,

Please enlighten me, could you name a few, or even one of those Australians in the public eye, that you consider to be the like minded, open minded, thinking people, holding views and opinions similar to yourself. I am interested.

You should not speak about something
you know nothing about.
Foxy,
Really ? Why then are our political leaders so inept ? They've all been to Uni !
Why are so many Uni graduated bureaucrats so inept ?
I worked alongside with quite a number of those "educated" so to say I know nothing about isn't quite right. I've seen first hand the stuff-ups by these "educated" people.

For anyone interested - Australia's universities are
highly regarded around the world and have built their
reputation for academic excellence and research
ingenuity over decades.

Australia attracts the 3rd highest number of international
students after the United States and the UK who are drawn
here by the record of achievement of our universities built
up over a considerable amount of time.

Anyone interested in learning more about Australian
universities can visit:

http://www.universitiesaustralia.edu.au

As for our Indigenous people? I shall leave that to
Joe (Loudmouth) to reply.

I wrote that " .... there is a way of attacking something or someone WITHOUT mentioning them, or without straight-out dog-whistling - for example, indirectly having a go at, say, Indigenous participation at universities, NOT by sinking the boot in directly, but by criticising some side-issue or peripheral aspect of, say, higher education generally, e.g. its quality and pointlessness."

Thanks, Ttbn, Individual and Alt Rave - you amply demonstrate what I was trying to get across, your gutless way of attacking people for making an effort, without having the courage to say so directly. In your worlds, Blackfellas are supposed to stay down and never lift their heads and, preferably, to stay out in the sticks. No, many are doing what they damn-well like, and many of them are progressing through higher education - and using it to their best advantage. No, very few will be silly enough to go out to welfare-oriented 'communities' in order to get slagged and destroyed by the pissy, petty local power structures of the Industry - like other graduates, they will stay in urban areas where they are from and where the jobs are better rewarded. Suck it up.

Joe

while the subject of successful aboriginals has come up I think Warren Mundine is one outstanding success. Whoever had input into him did an outstanding job.

Joe

Still at it! What is it that you think I should say "outright"? What am I supposed to be hiding? What am I too "gutless" to say? Spell it out man!

Yes Joe, please clarify your un-intelligible rant.
I KNOW I don't beat around the bush, and you do too, because I hate and detest PC, so if I've got something to say, I don't sugar coat it, you'll get both barrels.
So I'm sorry if I wasn't insulting enough for you because it takes a very high level of insults to get through to some of you with your twisted and distorted views or beliefs.
Now which part did I not put across strongly enough?
Was it the part where I make the statement that there are no abo's in uni today, or is it that because those of us born in Australia are indigenous, that means everyone, not just someone who wants us to call him an abo.
Look up the meaning of the word abo, and you'll see that ALL Aussies born here, are abo's, got it now?
Foxy, again with the glass half full.
Take off the rose coloured glasses, it's not working.
The list of abo 'achievers' you so proudly offer; can you highlight which of them are NOT of mixed blood and therefore abo's?
Or conversely, which ones are of mixed blood and therefore NOT abo's?
This should not be a problem for someone as well researched as yourself, as it will go a long way to clarifying the question about abo's in uni.
It will also show that in most cases the intellectual capacity of these 'mixed bloods', is directly correlated to the incursion of the European factor and not as is attempted to convey, the natural ability of the pure blood abo.
The main reason you are wrong is, as has been pointed out, that the funding has been slowly depleted and therefore Aussie uni's have engaged in more mickey mouse courses like ;arts' degrees and less 'real' courses.
Not to mention the funding cuts to research, the worst ever.
Consequently our uni's have dropped severely in world rankings to what is better described as critical.
So stop sugar coating things in a frivolous attempt at trying to keep a sinking argument afloat.

Blackfellas are supposed to stay down and never lift their heads and, preferably, to stay out in the sticks.
Loudmouth,
Where did anyone say that ? Is asking people to pull their weight too much to ask ?

//It will also show that in most cases the intellectual capacity of these 'mixed bloods', is directly correlated to the incursion of the European factor and not as is attempted to convey, the natural ability of the pure blood abo.//

Wow, fantastic the Aryan race is not dead! Their benefits are still shining through despite the infusion of inferior blood.

"The Aryan race is a racial grouping that emerged in the period of the late 19th century and mid-20th century to describe people of Indo-European heritage."

As I asked you ALTRAV; "Please enlighten me, could you name a few, or even one of those Australians in the public eye, that you consider to be the like minded, open minded, thinking people, holding views and opinions similar to yourself. I am interested."

ALTRAV,

You have a big problem.

You choose to believe what isn't true and refuse
to accept what is true.
As for the list I gave of Indigenous people?
Do your own research and look them up for yourself.
You just may learn something.

Have you noticed that very few people want to engage
with you on this forum? Talking to you is as effective
as a fart in a blizzard.

Answer Paul's question!

Hi Foxy, I'll try and help the lad out, how about Jim Saleam? He fits the bill.

Individual,

The whole point of this discussion is - as Joe has
pointed out - they are pulling their own weight.

Dear Paul,

Good example.

OK, you hopeless, hapless rabble of blinded, gelded misfits, you fall on your own swords again and again, you want names, how about Ben Shapiro, Milo Yiannopoulos and ahh what the heck, Jordan Peterson.
I won't give you any more right now, because it appears you can't handle too much info at once.
Now what makes two of these guys, stand out for me is that I have issues with queers and Jews.
Only the Rothschilds and those of similar mindsets.
So Ben is a Jew, and Milo is a queer, as for Jordan, he's just plain himself, he makes up the third of a socially acceptable trifecta, and yet I love em'.
These and others out there are just wonderful to hear talk.
When they speak, there is no emotion, just facts and delivered very clearly and un-ambigiously.
You guys ought to try it some time, you will find it a revealing experience for a fresh beginning.
The un-adulterated, PC free, TRUTH!
As much as you people continually try to catch me out with your left leaning, narrow minded ideals, you will never succeed because as long as I quote reality and facts, and you keep pushing ideologies and fiction, you are living in a world of your own imagination and not in the real world, THIS world!
Foxy, I did bother to look up some of those names, only to find I was right again.
If you want to win points don't make stupid statements, you of all people should know better, or at least it is I who expect better of you.
Now I will once again ask that you do not read my posts, because I have noticed your narrative and mood have degenerated to a new low, and for that I appologise and accept full responsibility.
So may I kindly advise, for your sake, do not read my posts.
I will still follow you on OLO so fear not you and your comments will still be of interest to me.

Poor on comprehension are we ALTRAV. I asked for Australians and you give me a Yank, a Pom and a Canadian. Can you get a little closer to home, how about New Zealand... Winston Peters, and he's related to my wife as well, we can keep it all in the family. Now some unkindly call him Winnie-The-Pooh

While on your big three, can you give me an update on their greatest achievements for the betterment of society. Seem to me they talk a lot of piss and wind, but please enlighten me to the contrary.

Paul 1405, NO I purposely gave the three names, because as it has been said over and over to the point of ad-nauseam, Our academics are not the brightest in the world and in fact talk such crap, if only because they support the loony left and the loony uni environment and alleged students.
So don't expect me to furnish you with anyone with enough intellect and maturity that would even come close to the three I mentioned.
It is typical of the left to promote the mediocre in favour of the exceptional, because they themselves come in well under par, by holding to and promoting underwhelming agenda and flawed expectations.
You may think you have the upper hand with your questions but at present your all flat on your backs scratching your heads, unable or unwilling to give me some examples of which of the brainiacs you have listed, are full blood abo or not.
The question is very easy for people such as yourselves, so what is the problem.
I'll save you the embarrassment, I actually don't care so don't bother answering because I will ignore your vane attempt at trying to point score.
I will end this farcical line of self ingratiation by making a final and firm statement:
There are NO ABO's in uni today.
Catch the more informed and mature of you on another topic.

ALTRAV,

For your information here are just some Indigenous
Academics. You can look each of them up for yourself:

Les Bursil
Gail Garvey
Loretta Kelly
Lynette Riley
Gracelyn Smallwood

And the list goes on.

You really should stop talking about things that you
know nothing about.

Being somewhat proud and not wanting to make it appear I was backing away from a losing challenge, curiosity got the better of me and decided to look into the list of these 'super human abo's' Foxy listed.
Well it didn't take me long to see I was right again.
Boy, you guys like getting the b'jesus kicked out of you.
It did not take long to find I was vindicated, so I thought enough is enough.
I fell for it again.
You halfwits will go to ANY length to win a point.
Well you lost again.
The ones I traced as anything resembling academics, you know the people who go to uni and actually come away with something other than an 'arts' degree in crayon painting or some other boronic subject, yes boronic, did in fact have mixed blood or at least one European parent or ancestor.
Which proves my point.
I realised I was just facilitating you and your petty, petulant stance so I decided, enough.
The proof is below.
Read em'n weep!

Neville Bonner, 'abo mother of the Jagera people, and an ENGLISH father'.
Linda Burney 'is of wiradjuri and SCOTTISH descent".
Kath Walker, 'had German, Spanish, Philippine and Scottish ancestry'.
Pat O'Shane, 'Irish, Australian father and an abo mother'.
Ernie Dingo, ;On my fathers side, I am Scandinavian and English'.
Samantha Harris, 'mother abo?, father, German-English descent'.
Tanya Orman, 'Tanya's mother an abo, father a British immigrant'.

I could not be bothered to look up any more, so do yourselves a big favour and you look up the rest, at least it'll keep you off OLO for at least, hmmm, a month, by that time you might understand what most of your list actually means, ie;
That the success rate of your so called abo students are directly correlated to their European heritage.
The stats don't lie.
You same twats are always asking for proof, well?
Seeing as how you were NEVER going to respond to my question about uni attendees you call abo's, are in fact just plain old Aussies, like the rest of us.

ALTRAV, simply saying "Our academics are not the brightest in the world", does not make it so, its nothing more than your opinion. The fact is you are hard pressed to name anyone of substance who is in the public eye in Australia, who would substantially agree with your line of thinking. Not finding anyone of substance agreeing with your cuckoo notions, you have to retreat to a position where you claim everyone else is lacking in intelligent thinking, but not you. Well it might be you who is out of kilter, and not those you claim are "not the brightest". Have you ever thought of that, or are you just going to bag out the academics, and anyone else who doesn't agree with you?

No Paul, I don't have to waste my time bagging the LACADEMICS, because we already have read in these posts where the professors have come out bagging the uni's and their poor performance and ergo poor international standings.
If you and your mates don't like what is being said, too bad, go cry in the corner, until you learn to accept the 'real' world and not this contrived fantasy I keep having to wade through continually.
Oh and by the way, the new list Foxy put out in an inane attempt at regaining some degree of respectability, looks as flawed as the previous list.
I'll remind you all once more.
There are no abo's in uni's, only Aussies!

ALTRAV, //we already have read in these posts where the professors have come out bagging the uni's and their poor performance and ergo poor international standings.// That statement proves nothing without substantive evidence to support the assertion, where is that evidence? What I will concede is that in any large organisation, or field of endeavour, there will be a number of malcontents, who are dissatisfied for various reason, some have genuine gripes, some have a personal gripe, and some do it to have a general winge. If you would like to provide bonafide evidence to back up what you say, it would be most welcome.

//you know the people who go to uni and actually come away with something other than an 'arts' degree in crayon painting or some other boronic subject, yes boronic//

Boronic? As in boronic acid? That would be covered in chemistry, ALTRAV. Chemistry is science, not arts.

Ahh Paul, you guys make it so easy for me.
All I have to do, if you won't believe the words of Aussie professors, is google 'World rankings for Aussie uni's', and voila', all is revealed.
As you can see for yourself, one chart gives four ranking systems.
The first three are enough to make my point;
QS, THE and ARWU, the forth is relatively new in the business of ranking so I thought I'd just leave it to the 'old school'.
I'm not going to bother copying all the data, you can read it for yourself, if I thought you were actually interested.
So as you can see, clearly, we are not as bright as you and your lot want us to believe.
Australia is a Mickey Mouse country with no actual substance, just a lot of chips on shoulders and ego's to match the size of this land.
As much as Aussies would like to think themselves 'worldly', they have no idea as to what the word even means.
So you guys keep telling yourselves that you know what your talking about, and keep believing your version of events and I'll keep reporting the true and real way things really are, in the 'real' world.
It is precisely people like yourselves that I am on forums, to attempt to correct the mis-information being spread, and the vial PC disease.
I believe I have once again made my point and so will now move on to conquer my next quest, if I may.

Alt Rave,

There are Polynesian-Australians at universities; Italian-Australians at universities; Chilean-Australians at universities; Korean-Australians at universities; Anglo-Australians at universities, including Scots-Australians and Irish-Australians; Kenyan-Australians and Ghanaian-Australians and Iraqi-Australians and Nepalese-Australians and Lithuanian-Australians. All Australians.

Despite your opinion, there are even Jewish-Australians. Yes, we worm our way into everything.

And yes, there are some twenty thousand Indigenous-Australians at universities.

Ethnicity and nationality are not the same thing. In fact, everybody can, if they wish, see themselves as all manner of hyphenated-Australians. I'm sure that you're proud of your Italian background and wouldn't mind being called Italian-Australian ? I feel some allegiance to Scotland, Hungary, Wales, Ireland, England, the Jewish Diaspora (by adoption) and maybe the West Indies, simultaneously and on special days, and I'm still Australian. It's not either-or. Our ancestors all come from somewhere else (and so did theirs, and theirs) and there's no reason not to feel some sort of attachment and affection about those original homelands.

As it happens, people with some Indigenous background can feel some affection and allegiance like anyone else, and most likely to some particular country in Australia. Certainly, my kids feel something for the lower Lakes and the Murray River area generally, many relations are buried there, as well as the regions around Crystal Brook and Yankalilla here in SA. Whether that makes them 'more' Australian, I couldn't possibly comment.

Can you understand any of that ?

Joe

Toni, are you joining the ranks of the 'let's say the obvious', now.
In case your education ceased at kindergarten, I might remind you that in the big wide world of words, some words, even though have the same spelling, actually have different meanings.
There, now you're a little wiser than when you got up this morning.
Now back to topic.
Do you have any words of wisdom to add to the fact that there are NO abo's going to uni.
Or to the fact that our tertiary education system is a joke and all they are teaching is petulant little 'children' to believe they are actually intelligent enough to have a relevant opinion about ANYTHING and how to be a loony lefty.
Or the fact that courses were dumbed down to accommodate and encourage wannabe abo's to uni, for what reason? no-one knows or cares.
No?
Ahh well, onward and upward then.

Joe, I will respond with a perfect example, myself.
As you rightly assert, my background is Italian.
My bloodline is for as long and as far back as the records show, Italian.
I have been tagged by the media as 'An Australian born, Italian blah, blah ,blah and so on.
There is nothing untrue about that title or tag.
Joe, where I take offence is that the title or tag of aborigine is used here as declaration of ones bloodline.
The sad truth is it's use has nothing to do with pride of ancestry, but more to do with being trendy and cool, if you call yourself an abo, not to mention physical and financial benefits or gain that come with that title.
Joe, my beef is mainly to do with the fact that you cannot dismiss the genealogical definition of someones bloodline by simply saying you have an affinity to some place or people.
This is not based on reason but on whim and therefore is not an acceptable or even legal premise or justification.
Another very important point is, by singling out one race in your background, over the many other races that copulated to produce you, is selfish, low minded and is disrespectful to all the other nationalities that were just as much a part of your very being, yet you single out just one, and it is of your choosing, not even by some genetic formula.
You speak of relating to a particular place in your past, well everyone has the same feelings about a particular place they had been in their past.
It means nothing, it's just the past, everyone feels it, but we don't use it to justify our ancestry, it is non-sensickle to say the least.
No Joe, I will keep pushing the facts over fiction and suggest that the proof of my message is in and has well and truly been tested and confirmed.
The other views are those of people with selfish or self righteous agenda.

ALTRAV,

Top marks for perseverance as always, but there is no way these people will ever see sense, and there is nothing to be gained by arguing with them. In real life, they collect together and they are not used to someone disagreeing with them. They've been getting away with their crap for so long that they cannot possibly believe anyone would question them; therefore, it is us who are wrong, and when they are not kowtowed to as they have been all their smug lives, they can't do anything to combat us but call us names, and we are supposed to mizzle off with our tails between our legs. Bugger that!

Who bloody cares about them! There are millions of people out there who agree with us; they just don't bother with social media, sensible people that they are.

Joe, to get back to your original comments, I totally disagree with indigenous based courses. I have seen some absolute disasters emerging from places like Bachelor College in the NT, a totally indigenous educational facility that trained Health Workers and “ teachers”. Some of these teachers graduated without even being able to speak English, a fact that left Mal Brough speechless when he visited schools in Arnhem Land.
Far better to have bridging courses for all students who arent at the required level to commence a degree or diploma course. Many kids, black and white, fail to complete secondary school, for many reasons, but as adults have matured and wished to further their education.
I am also totally against all forms of separation for any culture at university’s and TAFE, whether they be indigenous, Muslim, Asian, Martian, whatever.
Education is supposed to provide enlightenment, not breed apartheid.

//I might remind you that in the big wide world of words, some words, even though have the same spelling, actually have different meanings.//

And obviously, some do not. Boronic only has one meaning in English; 'Of or pertaining to the boronic acids or their derivatives'.

Inventing entirely new and unrelated meanings that don't appear in any dictionary is not an effective way to communicate. I suggest you try and stick to speaking English; you're a poor enough communicator as it is without the use of meaningless gobbledegook.

ttbn, yeah, I know, but I'm my own victim.
I cannot stand untruths or anything that has a selfish and high and mighty or arrogant agenda.
The unfortunate part is that I can understand women trying to look at life with a warm and fuzzy feeling, because they are warm and fuzzy things and are loving and nurturing and motherly, but at some point they must be told that the world is not like that and told the truth.
What I do not understand is when guys openly carry on like girls, all compliant and sweet and nicey, nicey, OMG it is not the MO of a MAN.
Yeah they can crap on about me being insecure and afraid of my blah, blah, blah, not listening.
I am more offended when something seemingly male carries on like a female, now that's offensive, not only to me, but to all women in general.
Anyway ttbn, keep up the good word and keep your powder dry and your bayonet sharp, it's war out there and we have been called upon to protect and promote THE TRUTH!

Toni, you mean talk like you or your clown mates who make up words like ALTRAVE, thereby, 'inventing entirely new and unrelated meanings that don't appear in any dictionary is not an effective way to communicate'.
Is that what you mean?
And yet it appears you are much better versed at speaking gobbledegook
than I will ever be.
I write and speak, amongst other languages, english, better than most.
As you are the resident expert on gobbledegook, I'll leave that entirely with you as it is well within your purview.

//Toni, you mean talk like you or your clown mates who make up words like ALTRAVE//

Sorry, where does it say 'ALTRAVE' in either of my previous posts discussing boronic acid? The closest I can see is this bit from my first post:

//That would be covered in chemistry, ALTRAV.//

Notice the lack of 'E' in 'ALTRAV'?

I believe you are confusing me with somebody else, which would suggest problems with your reading as well as writing.

//I write and speak, amongst other languages, english, better than most.//

Nope.

Hi Big Nana,

Yes, I agree about mainstream study, and intensive preparation courses to assist people to get into them. Thirty-odd years ago, I was working at a university campus (Salisbury) where they ran a mainstream courses in conservation management. We took a group of Indigenous students through a semester-length preparation course with a lot of Biology, but it was far too little; and the students seemed to have normal idea of what conservation management was - I think some thought it meant shooting buffalo etc.

So we knocked up an intensive year-long Bridging Course to help students cope with the mainstream course better, with a social emphasis on Biology. That worked, and each year - three years later - we had graduates from the mainstream course, and probably did so every year up to 2000 and beyond.

But being an 'Indigenous course', there as pressure on us to hive it off as an 'Indigenous Conservation Management course', just the one year. We refused - it was nothing more than a preparation course, and certainly not some Indigenous alternative to the mainstream course.

That was then, when few Indigenous people, and certainly few men, and even fewer who wanted to be qualified conservation managers and rangers, had studied Biology and other sciences (and maths) at high school. It's a bit different now, and such courses wouldn't be necessary, at least down this way.

Batchelor seemed to have a shocking record, of huge numbers of students and very few graduates. A MARRIED couple of Ass. Dip. graduates from Batchelor came down to try out our week of pre-selection tests one year (I think 1992); they did one day of tests, clocked up $ 1200 in phone bills at the motel that we booked them into, pissed off without paying their bill, left dirty nappies all over the floor, etc. The motel people cut us off for good. Their English was pretty poor and numeracy non-existent. That was the end of that grand experiment.

[TBC]

The Australian Museum discusses the topic of who
are the "true" or "authentic" Indigenous Australians.

As we've seen in this discussion some have even expressed
the view that if Aborigines are not full-blood they have no
authority to speak, create, live or identify as
Indigenous people.

That is not true.

Considering Aboriginality in that way is highly
offensive to Indigenous Australians who identify as
such.

It is one-dimensional and does not take into
account significant social and historical factors
which impacted on the Indigenous people of Australia
including assimilation policies which aimed to breed
them out of existence and destroy their connections
to culture.

How on earth can you quantify or calculate how
Aboriginal someone is, or for that matter -
Australian Chinese, or New Zealanders.

If they are not full-bloods - what part of them is
Aboriginal? It just doesn't work like that.
Their Aboriginality makes up their whole being.
It courses through their veins, all throughout their
bodies. It's wired in their psyche.

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples do not
define their Aboriginality by skin colour or percentage
of blood. Their identities are complex and diverse
across Australia and encompass many aspects and contexts
that ultimately make up who they are.

This may include connections to place, country, language
groups, family relationships, cultural beliefs, value
systems and Indigenous ways of knowing and being.

Indigenous Australians developed a working definition which
was adopted by the Australian Government to define an
Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander person as:

1) A person who has Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander
descent: who also -

2) Identifies as an Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander
person and -

3) Is accepted as such by the Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait
Islander community in which they live (or come from).

[continued]

Batchelor now has either no students or single-figure students, and no graduates each year. That's where Indigenous-focussed courses seem to end up. Yet the 'leaders' would probably still advocate for them. Thankfully, the people are going around their 'leaders'.

Around 1999 or 2000, another university tried another stunt - enrolling huge numbers from all over Australia in a one-year preparation course, EXTERNALLY, which is guaranteed not to work. They were probably pulling in three or four million dollars from Canberra for this lurk, before they were belted around the ears for it. Their annual numbers have shrivelled up since then, and my bet is that the students that they do have enrolled are mostly mainstream-course students. No names. But apart from Notre Dame, UWA and Murdoch, WA has a very poor record in terms of Indigenous university participation.

Love,

Joe

Not unexpectedly, Joe has not answered my questions on what it is he thought I should say outright, or what I am hiding, or what I am too gutless to say; which of course proves my comments on his inability to deal with criticism of his emotional views without resorting to demonising critics, which does nothing to back up his argument at all. I really can't be bothered with people who accuse others of doing something, but then chicken out when they are asked to explain what they mean.

One of the marine TAFE course lecturers told me several years ago that they weren't allowed to fail indigenous course participants.
Instead they were simply deemed competent on the day of their test.

The same thing has been said about foreign students at universities. I don't know whether or not it is true, but given the Left crazies running the show these days, it's quite possible. Just imagine foreign students going back home without a degree. The big bucks that the universities rely on would soon dry up. As for the students still wanting connections to the Stone Age, the Left is not really interested in them getting jobs and leading normal lives. That would affect one of their pet dividing society projects, and threaten handouts to the 'industry' and its hangers-on. If people with traces of aboriginality started living like everyone else, there would be thousands of Left-wing bludgers left out in the cold.

Ttbn,

You're proving my suspicions - what have international students got to do with Indigenous students ? That's what I was getting at - that you obliquely attack Indigenous students' presence and performance at universities by attacking the quality of education for international students (a non sequitur ?) and by attacking higher education generally.

And that's gutless.

Joe

Joe, before you run off too far to the left, ttbn has a point.
It may be a little veiled, but has anyone given thought to the fact that if we are going to admit to failures of 'certain' students to come up to scratch, might just be as simple as a lack of proficiency of 'english'.
It seems possible that if you don't have a full grasp of a language, any language, it cannot be possible to understand, in detail, whaat is being taught, and so they struggle.
It may also have something to do with why it is that foreign workers are not always reckognised for their qualifications in Australia.
The standing joke given as the reason, is that their education does not come up to Australian standards, therefore neither does their degree, and therefore their qualification to the same job in Australia.
Gee we must have the smartest people in the world here.
Well I tell you what if OLO is any guide, I'd say we're in trouble.
Just the fact that the uni's are so left, is enough to ring alarm bells.
It appears we are being run by children, according to a news article last night.
We see these kids running around making a lot of noise, but making no real sense just repeating what some lefty loony teachers would have groomed them to say.
People these are children, remember the tried and true saying?
'They should be seen NOT heard'!
That's how desperate and way off the margins the left are these days.
Unstable and irrelevant, are two words that come quickly to mind.
And just to punctuate this point, the FACT that there are NO ABO's at uni these days, just adds to the whole derailment of the loony lefties and their fanciful ideals and beliefs.

ALTRAV and ttbn,

You really don't get it do you, that, that does not conform to your ideal social norms, which are mostly of the 19th Century protestant concept of material usefulness are seen as worthless. You see nothing in alternative abstract non material principles, those things which you cannot quantify in dollar terms. Where is your respect for those that are "not you", people that are different, and embrace their own alternatives values, like their values you also see such people as worthless.

Foxy makes a good point; //This may include connections to place, country, language, groups, family relationships, cultural beliefs, value systems and Indigenous ways of knowing and being.

Far too abstract for you guys, there are no dollars in it, so that puts the kibosh on that hairy fairy nonsense as far as you are concerned.

ALTRAV, I have done a bit of internet checking on universities, and Australian institutions compare more than favourably with those found in similar countries. I exclude both Britain and the United States, as the former has the English speaking worlds longest tradition of excellence in tertiary education, as demonstrated by the high regard both Oxford and Cambridge universities are held in. The US has a shorter tradition of excellence, but money and numbers has push some of their better known institutions like Harvard and Yale to positions of the highest prominence. The Australian universities, ANL, Melbourne and Sydney are all high in the world rankings. Your assertion that Australian institutions are of the 'Mickey Mouse' type is unfounded and untrue. I put that one in the same basket as your disgruntled professors claim.

Paul, if there is one thing you lefties are good at, is denial.
Even though I don't normally bother with proving my sources, I gave you proof and yet you stubbornly continue to push your version of the truth.
I posted actual excerpts of just one one the uni world ratings on OLO, you must have been visiting la la land on that day, and if you pulled your head out of your la la long enough to have read it, you would be reminded of the saying, 'read em an weep'.
Stop this lefty nonsense, it is really annoying, put your pathetic collective pride back in the box and just deal with truth's for a change.
A true and whole, mature, reasonable person, admits when they are wrong, so it appears the loony left are otherwise, and if so because of this you cannot/must not be taken seriously.
Just the fact that you have the inability to reason, in your make-up means you cannot be reasoned with.
That being the case, you pretty much have sealed your own fate by just 'being'

Hmmmmmmmmm, this message is a little too harsh.
I'll add LOL at the end.

You've lost your marbles Joe. Don't have a clue.

Just to throw a spanner in the works, how much of the Govt funding for indigenous University attendance is syphoned off into bureaucrat Super funds ?

ALTRAV, I don't always read your posts, particularly those appearing to be nothing more than long winded dribble. Was your startling "proof", re Australian Micky Mouse status for universities contained in a long winded dribble post, or in one of your regular blowing my own trumpet posts? Please enlighten, and I will read it.
As I said, I have done my own research on the world standing of Australian universities, and to my satisfaction there are at an acceptable level. Saying that, its not proof, as you claim you have, it is my opinion.

Paul, so you had the presence of mind to read my comment on page 11, but you chose to refer to the 'Mickey Mouse' statement and not the reference to the 'world rankings of Australian uni's'.
This actually says more about you than me, so if you don't mind or if you really do want to know the TRUTH, which I know you don't because it will vindicate me once again, please go back and read it, and weep, before you say another word.
Having read/seen the rankings, I find them typically at a standard of a Mickey Mouse level.
If you don't agree, it simply means you are the type of person who settles for mediocre as opposed to a higher standard, which would explain a lot about the left and how it see's the world and the level of education they perceive as being 'world class'.
Well you may be right, in YOUR WORLD!
Now will you guys admit you're flawed and get with the 'real' program and step into the 'REAL WORLD' where I and many other like minded, well informed, mature people on OLO live.

ALTRAV //As you can see for yourself, one chart gives four ranking systems. The first three are enough to make my point yuda, yuda yuda// I went to page 11, there must be some malfunction with my computer, for I see no such charts, nor do I see a link to any charts. Maybe they only exist in your distorted minds eye. Then again I might not be getting the same Google results as you. Oh dear things are tough. As I said I have done my own research and I have come to a different conclusion to you. Short of us both discovering that Australian universities hold all top one hundred ranking positions with all, we are probably not going to agree on the relative merit of Australia's tertiary institutions. Rankings are rather subjective at best, but of some merit. PO the Yankee and Pommie joints an Australia look rather good.

Paul, your really not trying are you?
The word imbecile comes to mind as I won't accept that you could not find my reference to Uni rankings.
I don't know how to link so that's why I mention the name of the site.
But if I must say it then I will.
Your fanciful idea that Aussie uni's are ranked in the top 100 internationally is a good thing, only confirms my comments, that your expectations are mediocre at best.
Having 5 or 6 uni's out of 37 in the top 100 is absolutely abysmal and shows us how our uni's have dumbed down or fallen so far down the in their world rankings, they are an irrelevance.
When you consider the 37th. is around 800th in the world, well no need to say anything, I think the rankings speak for themselves.
And you pretend you don't know Aussies are amongst the dumbest in the world.
You must still live under a rock if you haven't been following the scathing condemnations about the numeracy and literacy standards being the lowest in the developed world, right here in Australia.
Is it as someone has suggested, to facilitate the wannabe abo's or something?
Anyway Paul, I've proven my point, so it is irrelevant to me and the rest of OLO if you believe me or not.

Individual,

With respect, your comments about federal funds being siphoned off into university bureaucrats' Super funds is neither here nor there, in relation to Indigenous university participation. If it happens, it happens across the board of federal funding for universities, not just in relation to Indigenous participation.

You touched earlier on an important issue though, the disconnect between 'communities' and Indigenous university participation. To be at all effective, 'communities' need a strong economic base, but very few seem to be interested in build up their economic bases, so there may not be any scope for professionals involved in such activity: 'community' members seem to be preoccupied with money, no-work welfare, housing and health, rather than anything leading to economic activity.

And you probably know the anyIndigenous 'blow-ins' get short shrift from the pissy-local power structures, and those who do want to go to 'communities' are harassed and disillusioned, perhaps beaten up, and leave, never to return.

After all, the great majority of Indigenous graduates are urban-born, urban-raised, urban-based. Overwhelmingly, their first (and effectively only) language is English. If they go out to 'communities', they very likely do not have relations, family and clan members, there. Thy most likely won't even be considered to be Aboriginal by the locals. So why on earth should they bother ?

I had faith in the 'community' idea for maybe thirty years, but suspect that, except in very unusual cases, it has nothing going for it. Not only is it a dead notion, but it perhaps never got off the ground. Family and clan are the drivers of Indigenous destinies, not 'community'. And unless they get their act together, education, employment and economic activity are not on their agendas. No-work welfare is, almost solely. And dialysis machines.

When my late wife realised that about her own birth-community, she was devastated: to an extent, genuine community development was the be-all and end-all of what she was trying to do all her life. I'm sure that very many Indigenous people have had the same experience.

Cheers,

Joe

Alt Rave,

There are tens of thousands of universities across the world. For any university to come in the top 100 is an amazing achievement - within the top 1 % across the world ? What's not to like ?

Any other irrelevant whinge ?

Joe

Ah! ALTRAV,

I (ALTRAV) don't know how to link, the word imbecile comes to mind. I'll send my 5 year old grandson around to show you how to do it.

If you were to present me with a list of your top 10 TV programs, starting with Daffy Duck at number 1 and finishing with the Flintstones at position 10, that in itself is not proof that they are in fact the 10 best TV programs ever made. The uni thing is much the same.

You think of yourself as intelligent, yet cannot understand the difference between your subjective opinion and factual proof. As I said, I discount the standing of the British and the US top institutions for what I consider valid reasons. You make a statement like 5 or 6 uni's (Australia) out of 37 in the top 100, how does that compare to say Canada on a population basis, I would say quite favourably. A bland list does not account for variable factors. The US undoubly has the highest number of top quality institutions, but given the population size, age and wealth of the country that is to be expected. Don't forget the US also has hundred of very ify institutions as well.

Much of your opinion of the poor standing of Australian universities may have more to do with your belief they have a left wing bias, something you detest, and are therefore prejudge against them, rather than fact. Could that be true?

Paul, NO is pretty much the answer to all your propositions.
Where-as you would disagree that uni's are lefty loonys, I in fact believe that all teaching institutions in Aus are lefty lefty loonys, otherwise there would be discord in the chain of educational transmission between the institutions, and we couldn't have that now could we, because people might actually have to think for themselves.
As for my in-ability to 'link', I did not waste my time in front of a computer screen, as everyone does today.
I have a life, and spend little time on the computer so I find no reason in getting too familiar with it.
I admit my short comings and faults, are you man enough to do the same? or is that not part of the left's mantra.
If you feel that having uni's that rank where we rank is something to be proud of, that's your choice, but don't try to make excuses for them.
Those who have been empowered with the job of ranking uni's have been doing so for some time, and you know very well that they use tried and proven formula, so your arguments are at best moot.
The rankings are embarrassing and you know it, we don't have anything to be proud of in education and you know that too, in fact you can keep on trying to convince me, and everyone else, that this place is so wonderful, in every way, but you know deep inside that's not true.
Anyway, I can only hope I'm getting through, even if ever so slightly

ALTRAV,

What is your level of formal education?
Have you matriculated from high school?
Have you ever studied at a university and
did you complete your studies and get a degree?
Which university, and what degree?

Just trying to put things into perspective.

Thanks.

Foxy, NO, NO and NO.
My credentials are out in the big wide world, and I mean WORLD!
I did my time in academia and learnt enough to realise I had few peers so I went out into the big bad world and the rest is history.
If it's credentials or academic recognition you seek, I can only offer you the fact that many years ago I was given the opportunity to become a Member of the Design Institute of Australia, (not by my seeking any recognition) which I am still a member today.
Of course I see it as an honour, to be a part of this great institution.
My works/creations are my testament to my abilities, my being sought to join the institute was my passing of a far bigger test or exam than any teaching institution could ever aspire to.
As my name/work/reputation spread, locally, then nationally, then internationally, I began to realise I'd made it.
In doing so I have a wealth of history and knowledge about the world and people, and so it is that I choose to not entertain fools, I don;t have to.
I feel sorry for the ignorant and I am sympathetic towards them, they cannot help being of a lesser intellect.
But I will not tolerate arrogance.
The arrogant have not accepted their ignorance, and due to an over active and unjustified pride bubble, they will insist on promoting falsehoods and misinformation based solely on their personal views which are more often emotionally driven, based simply on personal opinions but lacking completely in common sense and reason.
If you are so presumptuous as to hold an academic above someone who has the runs on the board and has actually done things which have been requested by society and not just because they are doing it only for money and have a piece of worthless paper, then shame on you.
If so,you are not of the stuff I felt you were, and I usually am not too bad at assessing people, but, I hope I am wrong.

ALTRAV,

I appreciate your taking the time to answer my
questions. You have now put things into your true
perspective for me.

//I (ALTRAV) in fact believe that all teaching institutions in Aus are lefty lefty loonys,// You have proved what I have always suspected, that the June Dally Watkins School of Deportment is in fact, simply a front for the insidious teaching of the Communist ideology!

ALTRAV we are indeed privileged, and humbled, to have such an immense intellect as yours present on this little forum.

Foxy, does the name Foghorn Leghorn ring a bell?

Dear Paul,

It does now.

Doo-Dahh! Doo-Dahh!
Ohh, Doo-Dahh Day!

And here we now have proof of what I speak.
Looks as though I need not have bothered to respond, only to ensure that the rest of OLO get a good insight into a typical display of the level of the loony lefts, education, I'll bet there is even a degree or a diploma amongst these brainiacs and this is the result, so here it is for all to see once and for all.
I'm not going to engage in such low brow, yokel diatribe excreted by the loony left.
It's all yours, you can tell each other how your education and that piece of paper has made you all so smart and all those new ideas and things you have done for the betterment of someone other than yourselves.
Then you tell us all what YOU have done to not deserve the tags of 'arrogant morons', I will expect an answer, enjoy.

Hi Foxy,

How's your day been, I've invented a cure for the common cold, and received the Noble Prize for Medicine, but all in all its been a rather ordinary Sunday for me.

Nah, up in Maroochydore, celebrated the oldest moko's (grandson) 21st Friday night, great time had by all. Big family picnic yesterday, and house party last night. Today, took all the kids for a fun day at a local water park, they enjoyed that one. Too much, looking forward to getting back to Brisbane tomorrow for some P&Q. Gee, these Maori's have to stop being so "normal"!

Dear Paul,

I find it disturbing that some people can
be so negative about institutions of higher
learning. Yet at the same time these people
assume that those
with degrees/diplomas think that they are
somehow better than people without degrees
and diplomas. This doesn't make sense.
A person's intelligence is not determined by
whether or not you have a tertiary qualification.

And - more importantly a person's intelligence
(or lack thereof) doesn't define their worth.

Also a qualification such as a degree or a diploma
is not the only thing someone gets out of an
institution of higher learning. They gain
knowledge. They may meet amazing people. They
mature emotionally. They pick up skills,
including research, essay writing, lateral thinking,
debating, learning to question, finding solutions,
learning from different opinions, discussion groups,
lectures, tutorials, broadening one's outlooks,
whole new worlds open up. All these skills are
worth something, and they help people along in
their careers. It is not easy to get into these
places, and once in, it's even more difficult
to pass the exams and stay. People have to work
hard to do so.

To demean entire institutions of higher learning,
and other people's achievements while professing
to blow their own horns, - smacks of a deep insecurity
and inferiority indicated by their expressed view -
that only their opinions count. That only their
opinions are the "truth" - these - are the hallmarks of
the very ignorant. Nothing more needs to be said.
They do it themselves with each word that they
post. These people are usually referred to as
"blowhards," for the simply reason that -
that's what they do best.

Whoa, Foxy, steady on ole' girl.
I see I finally found the button.
I must admit it it's usually another button for which I seek but there ya' go.
Now that you've had your little rant and given us all the benefit of YOUR education and all that YOU'VE learned, let us qualify your comments by calling them YOUR OPINIONS!
There are so many errors in your last post that I can't begin to try and fit in, in one sitting, but suffice to say that what you contend is hearsay, or fiction (opinion) and what I say is factual, as I lived through it, so try as you may, you will not get passed YOUR inadequacies and inferiority because you cannot accept when someone tells of their life and in doing so engenders these feelings within YOU!
So just so you understand, I don't need to 'big note' myself, because I have 'made it', so do yourselves a favour and stop reading and dreaming about how wonderful you all are and realise that there actually are a broad spectrum of people and views out there.
Unlike you lot, I associate with multi millionaires, but unlike you lot, I don't give it a second thought.
I go with what I have, it does not define me, I do not envy or hate anyone who has done well through HIS own skills or effort, because, obviously I am in that category and why would I demean or criticise myself?
No you guys have got to grow up and accept what life has dished up for you, work with what you have, make it work and enjoy it.
Of course I would like to be wealthier, heck who wouldn't? but as long as I get to keep what I earned everything is fine, until someone tries to steal it from me, that includes the govt.
So Foxy don't hate me because of what I have done, because all I have done, all my life is for good, not just for myself, and because of this, andsome luck, good things happen to you.

ALTRAV,

Still blowing hard I see.

Thanks, Foxy, spot-on.

I suspect that Alt Rave went to uni for a year and bombed out. But he'd know better about that than you or me :)

Love,

Joe

Dear Joe,

I doubt if he finished high school.

But that's neither here nor there.

We can only judge him by his behaviour
on this forum. And that leaves a lot to be
desired.

Those lacking the sense to provide sensible replies invariably resort to ridicule.

The problem is that people with the most
ridiculous ideas are always the people who are
most certain of them. They actually don't need to be
ridiculed. They do that all by themselves without
any help from anyone else.

Foxy, WTF is wrong with you?
Do you actually believe what you write?
Do you not stand back and actually edit what you say?
Why do you continue to push your 'know better than everyone else' agenda.
I realise you mean well, and I like that, but do not reject comments that you choose to refute, with no actual substance or just based on emotion rather than reason.
You do yourself and your cause no good by simply making these egregious statements and outbursts.
I am offended by your slurs and put downs, not so much about me, but about my life and achievements which were hard won because of the regressive people and bureaucracy in this country of 'mentally challenged', regressives of which, we now see a very small example of what I speak in you and your lot.
I have the proof of what I say, and that this country is a waste of space.
When was the last time you or your mates did something to help the people of a third world country to get a 'leg up'? and I don't mean something missionary, but something tangible or three dimensional with real and actual beneficial outcomes?
So don't you dare put me down unless you can match or better my life and my life's work.
You typically left wing, regressive, ingrate!

ALTRAV,

Keep on behaving badly and
nothing will change for you.

Foxy, so why should I listen to anything you say anymore when you have demonstrated an increasing amount of entropy on OLO since you first began.
My behaviour is not in question, I know where my problems came from and why.
My behaviour is in direct response to the problems, so unless you are prepared to listen to the problems and their cause, you cannot comment or give an opinion.
I don't understand how or why you can reject my life stories with such casual, indifference and yet respond with such negativity, all without an ounce of material facts about me other than what I have described, which is all true.
I can't help it if I'm better off than most, or that I have a few more cars than most, and so on, etc, etc.
If it makes you feel any better, and I mean it, I'll tell you that there are thousands of men out there many times wealthier and with more cars and flashy houses who also live on the coast.
So come back to earth and calm down, I certainly won't bite, well not in a bad way, Hah. Ahem, where was I, yes, well anyway, I'm one of the good guys, I'm sorry if my life has stirred up some people, but if they were out to piss me off then, good, if not I was merely trying to explain a little more about myself and what I have done, which was intended to engender some respect from those who sought to demean me for no valid reason.
I hope this clarifies my position.

ALTRAV,

None of us really care about how many cars you have
or how rich you are. This is a discussion forum.
If you want to be taken seriously you need to
behave with civility towards others. To date you
haven't done that. You make assumptions about
people you don't know. And judge yourself
to be "superior." I come from a very prominent
family, and am married to a well known professional.
I also am well known in my field. Both my husband
and I have lived and worked overseas as well as in
this country. But none of that really matters in
this place. It's how we treat people, how we post,
blowing one's horn is not what people care about here.
There are many on this forum - whose backgrounds
would leave yours for dead. But this is not a
competition. Stop behaving badly - and you just may
gain some cred. Nobody needs to demean you - you do
that job yourself. A bit of civility goes a long way.

ALTRAV, your posts indicate you are some pompous fella, who is consumed by your own self impotence. How many dollars you have in the bank, or RR's, sorry Bentley's, you drive is of no consequence, the measure is what you say, and how you say it. In your case, your diatribes of opinion are believed by you to be fact, and woe betide anyone with the audacity to disagree, you paint them as some kind of moronic idiots. Of course on an anonymous forum this may not be the truth, could all be a gee up, and your real persona is that of a very nice bloke. But if it is the truth, and it is your bag, so be it. I'm not out to piss you off, but probably do.

As a side, and something you would not be capable of seeing, Foxy, is a middle of the road moderate, her posts are ten times the worth of the self indulgent nonsense you post, and believe everyone should accept as "gospel".

I'm not having a go at anybody with this post. Just thought that I should try to make that clear.

Opinion is one thing, everybody is entitled to one, but (this may be hard to grasp for some people) so is everybody else. A different opinion may seem offensive to someone who holds a very strong opinion on some topic. Opinion and offence go together in a robust, active world of discussion.

I'm worried that both Left and Right forget that: that they airily assume that, because their opinion is so obviously right (except to deniers), that only evil bastards could possibly disagree, and that therefore they are deliberately trying to cause offence. So their opinions should go through to the keeper, as it were, without the batsman even swinging at the ball. 'Other' opinion is illegitimate, only ours is legitimate - not only that but an expression of my undiscovered genius. So opinion and offence are inimicable, antithetical, they can't possibly go together. My opinion is good, yours is not because it causes offence which is bad.

If anything, I'm having a go (an easy shot) at young school-kids and their half-baked stance on climate change, among many other complicated issues. I suppose one should ask a teenager while they know everything, but I would be very worried about their opinions about, say, brain surgery: easy-peasy, shave the skull, cut around here, saw there, stick the top somewhere while you fiddle with the insides, fix the problem, put the top back on. No worries: who needs school ? Undiscovered geniuses !

Of course people should be free to express their opinion but they should EXPECT disagreement and alternative explanations in return, which in turn require them to think a bit further. Nobody should get a free ride. I've found OLO invaluable for that. One can churn over what someone else says and refine one's own arguments. Evidence, of course, helps. But surely we're all searching for the truth, whatever it may be, however 'offensive' it may be.

The Enlightenment continues, and will forever.

Joe

Foxy, I have tried to engage with you and your lot.
I have opened up, when I didn't have to.
I have explained myself a million times.
It is now patently obvious to me and the rest of the OLO contributors that there are those who harbour ill-will towards others, no matter how saintly they project themselves.
I made no attempt, none, to 'big note' myself, only to be as open and honest as I have always been.
Conversely, by your own hand, you have demonstrated a deep resentment for people, possibly due to your life in the public arena and excessive exposure to people and their shortcomings.
Or there are some other closer to home, unresolved issues.
Whatever your 'hang-ups' they are yours, and we respect that.
What I take umbrage to is your pushing your unrealistic and misleading views on life and the 'real' world.
You may want things to be better, so would we all, but unfortunately they are what they are, not what you say or think they are.
If you find my life's work and that I actually helped better peoples lives, or that I became a little better off than most, offensive and 'in your face', I'm sorry, I did not do that you did.
Excuse me for opening up and letting people understand what I'm about, as it seems those like you need to be appeased, because you refuse to see things in any other light than your own.
Well here's a FACT that you conveniently want to dismiss.
I'm not saintly like these people who go to church on Sunday then kill people on Monday.
If I say something, you can't dismiss it, because you have had no contact with what I say, I did.
There are people out there who are better, kinder, richer, poorer, funnier, sadder, angrier, etc; than you or I.
All you had to do was read me and move on, but no, you have again and again exposed yourself, demonstrating you're not really that compassionate angelical woman I thought you were, who just laughed things off.

ALTRAV,

You can spit on a rose but it's still a rose.

Foxy, you poor deluded little petal.
At a girl, keep on fighting as you slowly die.
You may like roses with spittle on them, whilst I don't.
That's OK it just explains the difference between us.
Onward and upward.

ALTRAV,

Glad to see that you are finally getting the message.
Onward and upward ... That's an excellent sign.
Because those of us who are lifting the world upward
and onward are those who encourage more
than insult and criticize.

Keep on striving onward and upward.

Hi Joe,

//I'm worried that both Left and Right forget that: that they airily assume that, because their opinion is so obviously right (except to deniers), that only evil bastards could possibly disagree, and that therefore they are deliberately trying to cause offence.//

I consider my opinion to be just that, opinion. At times what I present is unashamedly biased opinion, after all this is an opinion forum. Presenting facts is entirely different, facts cannot be disputed or altered, facts are undeniable. To present opinion, and then claim it to be fact, is nothing short of ridiculous, and that is a fact.

Paul, did you check/proof read your last paragraph?
"To present opinion, and then claim it to be fact, is nothing short of ridiculous, and that is a fact".
WTF?
Really?
WOW, well I'm glad you cleared that up for us all, otherwise we might have gone on thinking you actually might have got it right every now and then.
Well now we know.
I wonder if there is anyone else who can see it?
Anyone?

ALTRAV, poor on comprehension as usual.

Opinion; a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

Fact; a thing that is known or proved to be true.

When I said "I consider my opinion to be just that, opinion" I was thinking of you as one who presents opinion and believes it to be fact. You continually do that, offer opinion and then in the next instance claim it to be fact. What you have said about academics and universities in Australia is your opinion, nothing more, you have no evidence that what you claimed is fact.

The quip on the end "... and that is a fact." is a witticism that went over your head. It can't be a fact now can it.

Paul, I don't claim to be whatever it is that you and your mates are.
If someone gives an opinion, it must be based on something resembling the truth or facts, otherwise he or she is an imbecile.
Now do you know the definition of imbecile?
Well look it up.
What kind of stupid logic do you believe in?
So you can just throw in a random few, irrelevant words, with no connection to the topic in question, and just say 'it's my opinion', and I'm supposed to do what, with that?
If it's not factual, it's irrelevant.
Who cares about anyone's opinion if it has no relevance to the topic.
Oh My God! You're taking the piss, right?
Oh I get it this is another witticism, right?
Well I'm sorry I did not do WIT 101 at school so I don't get anything that is not actual english and clear and structured sentences.
If you want to talk 'wit' I suggest finding someone who understands wit, maybe there is a group of people better known as twits.
Now I understand why I cannot communicate with you lot.
I don't talk in riddles or any other method of communication other than the traditional, tried and tested methods.
Anyway good luck with speaking in tongues or whatever language you all communicate in.

ALTRAV

//Now do you know the definition of imbecile?
Well look it up.//

You either presume I do not know the definition of imbecile, in that case you are wrong, I do without looking it up. Or you are so presumptuous that you believe I do know the definition of imbecile, and by your command I must look it up. Which I would not do simply on your instruction. I can see how wrong you are, now who is the imbecile?

ALTRAV, Lets answer the rest of your questions.

//What kind of stupid logic do you believe in?//

I do not believe in any kind of stupid logic. I hope that is a satisfactory answer.

//I'm supposed to do what, with that?// Nothing, have I asked you to do something with "that", I do not believe I have ever asked you to do anything with, "that".

//You're taking the piss, right?// Wrong.

//this is another witticism, right? Wrong.

You are not getting much right are you. Well we are out of questions. Like any more answers, just ask the questions

No Paul, enough.
Debating with certain people is like riding a 'merry-go-round'.
I've had enough fun for one topic, and the rhetoric is causing nausea, like the merry-go-round.
This is where I get off and wait for another topic to 'ride'.

ALTRAV, eat ginger, and keep away from merry-go-rounds. That is my opinion.

I've had enough fun for one topic, this is where I get off and wait for another topic to 'ride'. Alternatively you could pull the wings off flies, same result.

Hi Paul,

Yes, it's facts that matter. As the revered ancient Roman law experts put it: 'Asseritur gratis, negatur gratis'. Which I think means: he who asserts without evidence, can be ignored or denied without any need for evidence. Literally: 'what is asserted freely can be denied freely'.

Of course, anyone can express any opinion, no matter how imbecilic, but evidence strengthens an opinion and makes it worth paying attention to.

For example, whether some people like it or not, some six or seven hundred thousand people in Australia, almost all with some Indigenous ancestry, honestly regard themselves - and are regarded by others - as Indigenous. Most likely, they simply don't know of any specific ancestors EXCEPT Indigenous ones. Certainly, my late wife didn't. But she knew a multitude of Indigenous relations, passing through. They are Indigenous Australians. They are of Indigenous ancestry AND they are Australians.

Of those 600-700,000 Indigenous people, there are around 400-450,000 adults. Of those, there are around 58,000 university graduates. About one in every seven or eight adults. These facts can be readily confirmed from government web-sites.

Some people may have an un-supported opinion that, if an Indigenous person has non-Indigenous ancestry, they are thereby not Indigenous. A few decades ago, it worked the other way around, and everybody knew it. As far as I am concerned, if an Italian-Australian had some NON-Italian ancestry but if he called himself or herself 'Italian-Australian', that's fine with me. He or she has that choice, which would be doubly affirmed if he or he isn't know any relations except his Italian-Australian ones.

Sometimes, facts and opinion blur into each other. But the more reliance on evidence, the stronger the opinion can be.

Joe

Dear Joe and Paul,

Of course facts do matter. The Australian Museum
in Sydney, the oldest museum in Australia, with
an international reputation and involved in Indigenous
studies research tells us that Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander peoples do not define their Aboriginality
by skin colour or percentage of blood.

Their identities are complex and diverse across Australia
and encompass many aspects and contexts that ultimately make up
who they are.

This may include connections to place/country. language groups,
value systems and Indigenous ways of knowing and being.

Indigenous Australians have developed a working definition which
was then adopted by the Australian Government to define an
Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander person as;

1)A person who has Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander
descent; who also

2) Identifies as an Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander
person; and

3) Is accepted as such by the Aboriginal and/or
Torres Strait Islander community in which they live
(or come from).

Joe, Thank You for sharing your vast knowledge acquired
through your own research over these many years. Through
your many publications, through the work that you and
your late wife have done at the University of
Adelaide, and elsewhere, through your own Indigenous
family. Your knowledge and experience is undeniable
and has to be acknowledged and respected. You know what
you are talking about.

Loudmouth, people can call themselves what they want, at a social level.
They cannot assume a title they clearly are not.
I see where the govt. none-the-less has weighed in on this fiasco and because the govt is a 'YES' machine, it will cede to any minorities so as not to be seen as discriminatory.
And the fact they don't care, as it does not affect them, other than to garner more votes and followers, so yes, why would they not adopt a particular stance which can only help THEM in the long run.
The hypocrites pushing the abo agenda, refuse to see the truth and facts behind their misconception.
In the 'real' world they would probably be referred to as 'Anglo-aborigine'.
But no, that won't make them 'special'.
I have never denied someone the right to call themselves, say, Australian born Italian, because that is not only the truth, it is fact.
Totally discarding the govt's nonsensical acceptance of what being an abo or indigenous means, the truth or fact is that they are Australians, with absolutely no distinguishing factors.
They can relate to a tree stump or a river or a mountain or a million other locations on a map, I don't care, that has nothing to do with their country of birth in a legal format.
I will not cede to this air-headed view that because one of my ancestors, out of twenty, was an abo, I decide, by my choosing, not some genetic disposition, but MY choice, to 'relate' with some distant abo past.
Pathetic.
And as I have said before, disgraceful, because you chose ONE of your ancestors over the MANY who were all part of your physical being here today.
Those who have chosen that path should be ashamed of themselves and shunned in the strongest possible terms, and not seen as some kind of shining example of abo's today.
Quite the opposite.
What I write is based on logic and fact, what the abo's contend is based on fiction and is in fact, arguably one of the strongest examples of 'confirmation bias',ever.

Alt Rave,

The only relations - or overwhelmingly so - that you know: if they are, say, Patagonian, and all Patagonians think of you as Patagonian - AND all non-Patagonians think of you as Patagonian too - then you likely to very honestly think of yourself as Patagonian. Your brothers and sisters are Patagonian. Your mother is Patagonian, your uncles and aunts, and maybe a surviving grandparent. The people you hear about, yarns about your ancestors. Most of your life-long friends. Patagonians. Patagonian Australians.

And at the same time, although you may be aware that somewhere along the line, there were non-Patagonians involved in your creation, or your parent's creation, or a grand-parent's creation, before they buggered off, you've never known them, or even what they might have been like, or looked like. No idea. Only about your Patagonian relations.

Your ideas about the world are coloured by those Patagonian experiences and view-points. You hear or see other view-points being expressed on TV but that's a non-Patagonian medium. Not too many Patagonians on TV. You go to school and hardly ever come across a Patagonian teacher, although you've heard if them, of course, auntie so-and-so, for example. And cousin such-and-such graduated as a doctor and is working at a major hospital in Brisbane, good on him.

But your world is much more skewed to Patagonians and their view-points, every day. Of course, as an Australian, you take it for granted that you can be both Patagonian AND Australian - for you, that's precisely what 'Australian' means. In fact, non-Patagonians seem to be that much less Australian than you are.

I'm sure you can understand all that, Altrav ? Just substitute the ethnicity of your choice for 'Patagonian' and see how it works.

Joe

Dear Joe,

Beautifully reasoned.

Well said.

Dearest Foxy,

Your kind words make it all worth-while :)

Do you have positive feelings for Lithuanians or Russians, or both ? As well as other ancestries and ancestral homelands ? Im sure you do. My step-grandfather (my grandma ran off with him in 1932) helped to raise me for about a year when I was seven; he was Hungarian Jewish, Sephardi, not very observant, so I've felt affections for Hungarians and Jewish people for nearly seventy years now. And of course, they would be Australians as well. Hyphenated-Australians, like pretty much all of us.

I think my wife's father was Italian, although she never met him or knew what he looked like, so of course I feel some sympathy, admiration and affection for Italian-Australians too. It's not an either-or world :)

Love always,

Joe

//In the 'real' world they would probably be referred to as 'Anglo-aborigine'.//

This would be the 'real' world that only exists inside your head, I presume.

//What I write is based on logic and fact//

That's not how it works, ALTRAV. An argument is logical and factual if it's logical and factual, not because you declare it to be logical and factual.

You can't just type 2 + 2 = 5, followed by:

What I write is based on arithmetic.

Well, not without people giggling at your posts anyway.

Dear Joe,

I'm proud of my ancestry.
It, like I suspect many people's, is from
a rich and wide mix. Enriched even further
through our families marriages. However
it has never occurred to me to question my
identity. I was born in this country and
consider myself an Australian. My Russian/
Lithuanian ancestry is the icing on the cake

cont'd ...

Dear Joe,

I've just realised that you asked about whether I
had any positive feelings towards Lithuanians,
Russians or any other ancestral homelands?

Of course I do. My ancestry has given me a culture
that I've inherited and it's something that I
maintain through my values, traditions, language,
song, dance, music, literature, even food,
and of course - contacts.

BTW: I should add - that I've also encountered
some amazing people in my journey through life.
They have helped shape me into the person I have
become and still hope to be. I enjoy inter-acting
with people who
open my mind. Such as yourself. :-)

Dearest Foxy,

Some icing !

Yes, we keep the (mostly) positive aspects of our heritages, whether they be Irish, or Maori, or Mexican, or Italian - or Indigenous (usually at a much finer-grained level based on region and country). And those affections can only enrich Australia as a whole.

Love,

Joe

Spot on Joe, few indigenous people are 100% anything, jut like the rest of us. My own wife identifies as indigenous Maori, but will happily say she has other mixed blood. By language, culture and tradition she identifies herself that way, and that is what she and others see her as. DNA testing would show us all as being of various mixes, but that is not important, it is what we and others identify us as that counts. Thanks for that clarity, hopefully ALTRAV will understand what you said and appreciate what determines a person to be Aboriginal.

You know what?
I just realised the only person conforming to OLO is Nicknamenick.
He writes absolute rubbish/gibberish, but at least he knows it.
When you people stop patting each other on the back for NO reason what-so-ever, you may want to consider that your responses to my comments are either mockery or deflections and do not provide any tangible justifications for your stance.
Joe,I understand your comments within your last post, but you are using emotion based reasoning not actual genetic or physical examples.
I will not relent in my continual push for the real aborigine as opposed to a perceived one, or self ingratiating ones, as on OLO.
I will not cede to the views expressed by a few with emotional attachments to the topic.
I am always objective in my opinions, where-as those of you who wrongly believe in this flawed view hold a subjective stance, so then because my view has no external or emotional influences, it stands to reason I am right.
As usual, no-one bothered to actually read my comments, because you would actually agree with them, such as what you all are guilty of is 'confirmation bias', but because that ruins your case I guess it was more convenient to pretend it was not in the text.
People if your going to argue with or use misnomers as the basis of your reasoning, I'm sorry, that definitely won't fly.
If your a little rusty on the word, google it, and the others too.
If anyone wishes to respond,please do so with an objective attitude, or your response will be moot.
I rest my case your honour!

Nothing like meaning what you say.

//I've (ALTRAV) had enough fun for one topic, and the rhetoric is causing nausea, like the merry-go-round.
This is where I get off and wait for another topic to 'ride'.//

Hasn't stop positing on this tread since. Says things for the sake of saying them.

What our Indigenous people need in life
is to be inspired to think that anything is possible.
They need inspiration to not always stick to "what is"
but to look beyond that to "what can be."

The young need reminding that the only real limitations
to accomplishing whatever it is they want to accomplish
or to be whatever they want to be - is themselves and
their way of seeing things.

They don't need negatives or to be told how unimportant
they and their achievements are. What they need is
inspiration and role models, and to believe that
anything is possible. That the only people who can put
them down is themselves. It is so much better to reach
for the stars than continue to stay down -
simply because some blowhard tells them they don't
deserve it or that they don't matter.

cont'd ...

I remember only too well when I was growing up -
how at school I was told that I would not
succeed academically. At that time I had some
problems with some subjects due to my lack in the
English language. We spoke Russian and Lithuanian
at home. Anyway, within a very short time - I
mastered English with no problems and majored in
it at University. I ended up with several degrees.
Thanks to some very determined teachers and my
family - who instilled in me the belief that I
could do anything if I set my mind to it.

That's the kind of support and belief in themselves
that all young people need. And the naysayers
will simply become hot air - that comes and goes.
They won't matter at all in the big scheme of things.

Dearest Foxy,

Thanks for those inspiring stories. Yes, many Indigenous people go on to post-graduate study - currently, the transfer rate is about 44 %. So those 58,000 Indigenous university graduates may well have some ninety thousand awards (bachelor, masters, Ph.D) behind them. Some have more than one or two: a couple of graduates I know, brother and sister, have three degrees, three graduate diplomas and three Masters' between them. So maybe the total is closer to a hundred thousand.

The federal Education Department data massively under-states these figures. I've always suspected that they under-counted Indigenous numbers, perhaps by as much as thirty or even forty per cent. The discrepancy between combined annual figures over five years from the Education Department, and the growth in Census numbers over the same five years, is closer to forty per cent. Partly this may because Indigenous students may not tick the box 'Indigenous' or 'Aboriginal' etc., and partly it may be due to keying-in errors.

So, if the Education Department figures were adjusted accordingly, the numbers of indigenous people commencing award-level study (not those in bridging or preparation courses) would top ten thousand this year (the 20-year-old age-group would number around 14,000 across Australia, north and south, city, rural and remote), with a total of more than 24,000 Indigenous students enrolled, overwhelmingly in mainstream degree-level and PG courses.

Currently, about 46-48 % of all commencers eventually graduate, mostly in the minimum time. So in the next four years, fifteen to twenty thousand more Indigenous students will graduate: we'll see in the next Census, out in 2022. God, that must get up the noses of people like Altrav and Ttbn, I'm glad to say :). Tens of thousands of Blackfellas who won't stay down.

Love,

Joe

Paul, I don't run from a fight, so if someone is putting me down after I have left the room, I WILL come back and shirt front them, because I do not subscribe to gutless wonders who find courage behind a locked gate.
Now to you Foxy, your incessant drivel is not helpful.
You speak as if for the whole abo community.
You are discriminating against the the rest of the population who are not abo's with your soap box rhetoric.
Your can bluster on as much as you like with your self serving misguidance about 'you can do anything you want, don't listen to anyone saying otherwise'.
Rubbish!
Just because you saying it, makes you feel justified and accomplished, as if, 'my work here is done', is absolutely not the case, and any psych will tell you, and it is again, misleading and counter productive.
If a person is capable of something they will achieve it without your patronising, self serving, 'bad', advise.
I can't believe how you cannot see that your mindset is a discriminatory and 'self righteous' one.
You arrogantly patronise people in the belief they 'need your advice'.
According to who?
Please take it back a notch, I might be offensive and crass and all the things I am accused of, but you and some others are becoming a real strain in trying to tolerate all this self ingratiation and back patting.
It's annoying and shows a very immature side of you all that is definitely unbecoming a person of maturity and assuredness.
And I know you guys will do anything to stop me from being right.

Jesus, Loudmouth, do you read your comments.
It seems you will, typically, say anything to make your point and present it as fact, where-as I do present facts, with follow up reasoning.
Are you seriously going to present a litany of flawed facts and lies about abo uni attendee's in direct contradiction of the education dept's or for that matter even the govt's data on abo, uni numbers.
You have become so desperate that now you have proven my charge that you guys suffer from (as I've said before), 'CONFIRMATION BIAS'!
You have just made my case for me.
AGAIN!

Altrav,

I'm well aware of confirmation bias :)

Not sure what you are going on about. You can check out annual figures on the ed. dept's web-site: https://www.education.gov.au/higher-education-statistics

and the Census data on: http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3310114.nsf/Home/Census?OpenDocument&ref=topBar

Yes, I know, what you will find won't confirm your bias, so I expect that you'll ignore it. Or explain it all away - that no Indigenous person is really Indigenous, that they're all doing useless courses, and anyway university education is so unnecessary. Etc., etc., etc.

I try to take my data where I can find it, and adjust for inevitable inaccuracies if possible, in order to get some sort of ball-park figures. Since data on university participation is upgraded each year, and usually about one year behind (the latest figures are for 2017, so the latest attrition calculations would be for 2016, for example), it's always a moving feast.

Still, there the figures are. I realise that they don't confirm what you already believe, but there you go. One problem, Altrav, is that there aren't any figures that DO confirm your biases - unless, of course , you can present them ?

Ah, I see, you don't have to, because nobody is Indigenous ? Certainly not anybody at university ? And anyway, what a waste of time to go to uni. And anyway, we can't compare with overseas universities (apart from a couple coming in the top 1 % on world rankings: 1 % ? Pah !)

Classic confirmation bias !

Any other whinge ? Sometimes I read bits of your posts, but so far I haven't learnt anything, except how great thou art, what a genius, a paragon, someone who succeeds in spite of all the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

Paul, speaking of which, whatever happened to that wonderful NZ series ? My sister taped it all, so next time I go over, I'll have a feast.

Joe

ALTRAV,

It may come as a surprise to you but a person's identity
be it Aboriginal, or Torres Strait Islander,
or Lithuanian, or Italian, or Patagonian, is
something that is personal to them. They don't need our
approval or confirmation to identify as such.

Also, no matter what either of us argue - the Australian
Government has confirmed that a person of Aboriginal or
Torres Strait Islander descent who identifies as
Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander and is accepted as
such by the community in which they live is considered
to be Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander.

You may not agree with that or like it - but it does not
matter or count in any way at all. It is after all just
your opinion to which of course you are entitled. It is
your right to think whatever you like. And it is our right
to ignore it.

As for putting you down? Frankly - you do a very good job
of that yourself.

Dear Joe,

For me this discussion has now run its course.
I look forward to our next discussion.
In the meantime, hopefully things will continue on
onwards and upwards -
for our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
people.

I've just read in the Christmas 2018 edition of the
Australian Women's Weekly (page 70 onwards) an
article on the Central Australian Aboriginal Women's
Choir. An amazing story. They have travelled to Europe
and America, performed to standing ovations at the
Sydney Opera House and is the subject of the award
winning documentary film, "The Song Keepers."
They have also perhaps evoked more tears, both of
joy and grief, than any other vocal ensemble in the
world. It was well worth a read.

//You are discriminating against the the rest of the population who are not abo's//

Nope.

//where-as I do present facts//

Nope.

//with follow up reasoning.//

Yes, but it is invariably deeply flawed reasoning. And when people point out the flaws in that reasoning, you have a tendency to throw tantrums.

Hi Joe, I watched 'Kitchen Kura' on Maori TV good series, this one is from around Northland. My wife is a graduate of Northland College, it gets a mention in the show. Her hometown near where she was raised is Kaikohe.

http://www.maoritelevision.com/shows/kitchen-kura/S01E001/kitchen-kura-series-1-episode-1

Joe, just of interest. The NZ government has been negotiating with the various Iwi to finalise a settlement agreement over the Crowns breaches of the Treaty of Waitangi, which is not in dispute. Ngapuhi is the last, and by far the biggest Iwi to agree, or not agree, with a mandate to enter into talks. My wife's hapu, Naghi Hine (the largest hapu) is divided on the issue, and a 'no' vote (voting is taking place now, wife has voted) is most likely, to pass the 'yes' requires 75%. The amount involved is around $300 million to Ngapuhi as compensation, to be administered by a trust, Been very interesting with forums held in both NZ, and Australia, to explain to the people what is involved.

Toni, your comments are of a standard of a child in kindergarten.
Your lack of communication skills is not warranted on this forum.
The standard is a little more demanding than the mono-syllable language, or whatever language you are attempting to converse or communicate in.
If you can't speak english, I suggest you find someone a little older than yourself, say around six or seven, to write for you.
You know even Nicknamenick is looking pretty good along side you and your sad un-intelligible efforts.
Come back when you actually have something to offer other than your usual inane, useless, waste of time and space.

Altrav,

That's your best shot ? i.e. nothing ?

Oh No, Loudmouth, I don't need my 'best shot'.
It seems there are those who do it for me.
They are forever buying new shoes and getting their feet attended to for bullet wounds.

ALTRAV,

Take it easy.

Christmas and family get-togethers are just around
the corner. We should all be thinking and saying
happy thoughts at this time of the year. Christmas
is supposed to bring us together - isn't it?
We've all had our says - now lets just chill out,
smile, and move on.

How do you say - "Merry Christmas in Italian?

ALTRAV and Everyone,

Merry Christmas
buon Natale
linksmy Kaledu
Meri Kirihimete
Frohliche Weihnachten
joyeux Noel
Feliz Navidad
Nollaic Shona
Krismis Stori:

And a Healthy and Happy New Year 2019!

Same here, Oh and for the PC brigade; Happy Holidays.