Welllll.. there I was, sitting in Maccas.. Swanston st.. waiting for my 'arch foe' to arrive... finally, I recognized him from his turban, beard and scimitar at his side.. he advanced, mentioned 'Islam' so I pulled out the baseball bat and whack whack... down he went.. then I pulled out the Numchucks.. whack whack again... finished him off with a couple of well directed rib kicks......

Ok.. now the real story :)

As soon as I saw the debonaire and youthful 'Egyptian' looking bloke in the door, I figured it was he. No turban or beard, nor anything else except his smooth well groomed business look.
We shook hands and sat down. He shouted (the coke that is) and we proceeded to discuss various matters including our background, and our views on the Almighty, and the Lord Jesus, the Quran and religion in general.
We had about 45 minutes I'd guess, and it was time well spent. In all truth, a nicer fellow one could hardly meet. Now I think I'm safe in saying we are friends. I'll happily visit him in Sydney, and when I'm better set up in my living situation, he will be our welcome houseguest.
We didn't agree on a few things, but this is understandable, and in no way diminished the richness of the experience of this delightful personal encounter.

Good to hear Mr Boaz. I presume the experience was just as rewarding for Mr Human.

I had a similar experience years ago. After many strongly expressed disagreements with this particular fellow via letters to the editor of our local paper over a period of some years, and after the editor finally putting an end to it, I went to see him.

Not a nicer fellow could I have met. Much common ground was uncovered and we have remained friends now for ten years or more.

I'm delighted to hear it.

Would it be too much to hope that you might now begin to wind back your rabble-rousing rhetoric?

Dear Boazy,

Thank you it was a delightful surprise to mee too ( I was kind of expecting a 'Benny Henn' look not a respectable friendly grey hair man. Just be careful of the beard, you might be mistaken for a radical :-))
You have a wealth of knowledge on history, theology and culture in general and I can't recall a more stimulating 45 minutes coffee break in years.

"I think I'm safe in saying we are friends. I'll happily visit him in Sydney"
I have been waiting for 2 years to hear that Boazy and yes we are friends. It actually prompted me to suggest a OLO get together one day. Who knows!

All the best and look forward to knowing you more through your ideas and constructive criticism.

Peace my friend,

I'd like to add my best wishes to you both.

There may be hope for us all yet.

Cheers!

Nice to see the warmth evident in most posts, though the jibe of Pericles (or was it the "Sword of Damocles" ? :) didn't really need to be uttered.

My only desire for this meeting was that the love of Christ be seen and felt. The "Islam" of FH is not a type we ever need fear, but my 'fear' is not what he represents, it is the fear of what I learn from history, and it begins with Joseph the son of Jacob. He went from 'sold as a slave' to 'First minister of Pharaoh', but then.. due to some malevolence of Pharaoh's wife he ended up in Prison, then.. those chilling words "Then a Pharaoh who did not know Joseph arose" while poor old Joe is in the slammer.

It would be the same for a State run by Cardinal XYZ, or even some Bible Thumping Calvanist as it would for some Koran wielding Mullah,
or even some rampaging Marxist.

As I said to FH, I have no desire for a 'Christian' Theocracy, because I know it would never work as God intended.

The moment people with power, lose the sense of servanthood proclaimed and practiced by the Lord Jesus, is the day when it all goes horribly wrong.

At least in the case of the Christian situation, we can always goto our leaders and whack them with a verse from Scripture "He would be first among you, must become servant of all"

I leave this post with the words of the brother of our Lord, Jude (who humbly describes himself as brother of James)

For some interesting insights into the life of Jude, please read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jude,_brother_of_Jesus

24 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—
25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

I should tip toe out of here, but just want to say I think there are far more fellow Humans than those who concern me.
And the thread is a sign of hope.

Awww Belly..c'mon mate.. walk on the wild side a bit :)

Step out with the giants ...

I'll catch up with you on our personal debate thread.. "You can run...but you can't hide" :)

Belly. just picking up on a point you made.. (I'm in serious mode now)

You mentioned there are more like FH than those which concern you..
agreed...

The problem though, if there be one, is that the few who are NOT like FH, seem to have far more impact and influence than their numbers suggest they should.

Hence it is up to us all, the FH's and the BD's and the Belly's and Pericles's... all of us, to root out those who would destroy with violence the possibility of a friendly lunch across faith boundaries.

I'm hoping that our experience has shown that no matter how strong the words are in criticism of other beliefs, it does not mean or have to mean that there is any personal animosity involved toward the adherants of those beliefs.

I make a lot of static here, becuase I see in "Muslim Village" forum (Sydney) the kind of society we would have if such people ran the country. While FH is open to discuss and be criticized and to criticize, the people on that forum are not. God help us if they ever had real power.

BD, perhaps it would be easier for us all to work together to root out the extremists if you desist from your broadscale attacks on those who believe differently to yourself. Your consistant claims that because we do do not share the same foundation as yourself we are lost at sea or grounded in violence.

The Quran has violence in it but so does your book, you choose the see the violence in your own book as the acts of a god dealing with sinners or of sinners acting outside gods will, at a guess muslims see the violence in the Quran in the same ways. Because I base my morality and ethics on the best that I can find from human learning does not make them any less valid than the morality and ethics of someone basing them on the interpretation of a holy book. Someone who decides that sections which don't make sense were for the time or were alegorical rather than literal is really engaged in make it up as you go wether they admit it or not.

Accept that you disagree with our beliefs, that people of pretty much any belief system are capable of twisting it to wrong and that some others are capable of making a silk purse out of a sows ear.

If you want to address the issues of concern then step back a bit from the desire to use those things to promote your own beliefs and start talking about the actual issues. Start the odd thread discussing extremism in the christain church. Accepting that muslims and agnostics/athiests are capable of being decent human beings with a workable moral and ethical core even if you would prefer a different one for us.

R0bert

If you see my observation "Would it be too much to hope that you might now begin to wind back your rabble-rousing rhetoric?" was a jibe, Boaz, that is very sad.

I am genuinely pleased that you had such a constructive meeting with "a nicer fellow one could hardly meet", and my comment was also a genuine pious hope.

Interestingly, it occurred to me that a meeting between the two of us would - while undoubtedly friendly - have far less common ground to work with than that between you two religious folk.

Boaz and F-H,
Good to hear of your friendly encounter. As I have previously said, Islam under F_H's beliefs and attitudes poses no threat to our way of life. However we must all work together to rout out any person from any belief system who poses a threat of violence.

Robert,
Your quote, "The Quran has violence in it but so does your book, you choose the see the violence in your own book as the acts of a god dealing with sinners or of sinners acting outside gods will, at a guess muslims see the violence in the Quran in the same ways".

Not quite the same. The Bible is a history of evolving revelation over 4,000 years under many leaders. Most of it about nationalism. Jesus was one who encouraged personal faith and spoke strongly against and condemned violence addressing it as opposition to God [of Satan]. I suggest you read the New Testament.

Compare the violence advocated in the Qur'an is by a Leader 600 years later than Jesus and his life demonstrated such violence. Jesus said if my kingdom was of this world [nationalism] then would my followers fight. Jesus submitted to and endured violence against him, unlike Mohamet who advocated, confronted and engaged in it.

Supposedly Mohamet is the latest revelation. You judge! Who is more advanced in social reconciliation! True believers follow their leader to death. One is about territory the other about personal heart relationship. One is laying down his life the other taking others life.

Philo that is yet another approach to isolating the violence in the bible from the modern christain. There are a substantial body of christains who hold that the old testament is a record of the interaction of god with a people (there may be variations on the phrasing but that will do for my point). They don't see the times the israelites slaughtered the residents in places they were taking over as violent property realated actions of a more primitive people but as a people following the dictates of their god, the same god that the Jesus of of the new testament is reportedly one with.

I personally prefer the words and values attributed to Jesus than what I've read of Mohammed, my point is that christains who hold the old testament to be about their god are still for the most part able to live peacefull lives, not going about slaughtering those who offer unauthorised worship, rude kids etc. Just as a muslims do. If you don't understand the context have a read back through some of BD's posts regarding violence and the Quran.

For the record I've read the new testament numerous times.

R0bert

I don't get it. Islam is the religion of the sword, enforced by the sword, following the example of Mohammed. There is no separation of church and state, to prevent a bloody clash of religions. There is only the question, "Do you believe in Allah? and his prophet Mohammed?" If not, the sword.

Did I read the wrong Koran?

Robert,
Christians do not deny the history of the OT, but they must interpret it in the light of the NT. The OT if taken as final revelation and ignore the teachings of Jesus is not following Christ. They can hardly consider themselves Christian.

That is not to say we should consider the OT as irrelavent because we can learn many lessons of character, attitude and behaviour that form a persons relationship to God and His justice, forgivness and mercy.

We ought to recognise Jesus attitude toward the occupying Roman forces - no curses said. However note his attitude toward the Jewish zealots and religious forces attempting to overthrow Rome - not so accomodating. Anyone upholding violence as a hand of God, is not a follower of Christ.

Dear Rob
I quite agree that all of us, atheist, Christian (of all flavors) and Muslims (specially of FH's flavor) could work together quite well in that endeavour of exposing extremists.
My Christianity and FH's Islam could co-exist quite well... no drama there. Though once FH's brand got out of 'his' hands so to speak, and a 'Pharaoh who knew not BD' came along..things might change.

During our chat, FH alluded to his leaning towards Sufism, and this is one reason why his form of Islam is so benign. Sufism rejected the rigid 'law' approach of the more aggressive Islam and sought after the 'Love of God' aspect (unless I misunderstand them).

You really seem hung up on the OT and "God's violence". You've read the NT many times you say.. but you cannot see in Christ, the revelation of the Father as He really is. It just seems you are placing yourself above God. (no offense there) You are asserting "God SHOULD have revealed Himself 'this' way..to my liking" and you cannot see any Divine justice in patiently waiting for a people to turn from sin, prior to judging them in a terminal manner.

Here is a fascinating study for you.

Q "Why did God say "kill them all-, male female child, infant" ?

To gain an answer, ask any Jew 'Who was Haman' ? They have a special day to remember him. (Feast of Purim)
Look 'closely' at these things.
1 Sam 15:1-3 "Kill them all" (note the reasons)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=15&version=31

Then, look at verse 9

Now.. goto Esther 3:1
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=19&chapter=3&verse=1&version=31&context=verse
Haman was...a ?

Clearly he was a descendant of..... (guess who)

What....did he seek to accomplish and why ?

Are you seeing now why God said "kill them all"?

(read Gen 12:1-3 for background to Gods action. "Those who curse you, I will curse")

I look forward to your enlightened reply :)

G'Day Boazy,

I agree with your comments above, I think humanity moved on from theocracies whichever shape or form they may come. Religion in essence is a framework of values and therefore should remain a personal matter.

Philo,

Although we talked about history, religion and philosophy is our short meeting (Boazy and I), we never really debated anything as the purpose was just to meet as a friend and confirm that I am just another guy who happened to hold a different belief.

Hawaiian Lawyer,

There is one Quran but few meaning interpretations in English. Suggest a pickthall or a Yussuf Ali then you can judge for yourself.
There is also a good book that explains it by Sohaib Sultan on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Koran-Dummies-Sohaib-Sultan/dp/0764555812
And no, I don't have a sword and not planning on buying one. I much prefer a keyboard and an intellectual discussion :-)

Wisdom of the day I would like to share with fellow posters:

"the illiterate of the 21st century is he who fails to learn, un-learn and re-learn"

Peace,

BD I rarely tip toe but manners are the best asset we have, in fact this has been a week of roaring and it was needed every time.
The thread highlights my often quoted thought the answer to terrorism is much more likely to come from within the Muslim community.
Fellow Human has the answer in one post, no Christian, but the wisdom can not be denied, we must learn new ways forever to live as one, while respecting our right to be different.

DB and FH,

Glad to hear that all went well and that it was an interesting experience - and no dead bodies at the end of the meeting.

DB, at least you still have hair.

FH, be kind to old folks....

Kactuz

It's been said that we have more things to unite us than those things that divide us, or at least that's been my attitude to life.

Nice to see a hint of harmony on these pages, if even for a fleeting moment.

I take it that neither side saw wings, horns or haloes growing on the other?

Fellow Human,

Either that means you are not a follower of Mohammed, or you are, but depart from his ideas and practice (convert or die). Isn't the aim of Islam to convert the world to Shariah law? And isn't the only way to do that to use the sword, if not now, then when the majority of the world is Islamic (has majority political power)?

There are many humans doing different things. This doesn't mean "human" means "humane" or "democratic." The use of "fellow human" is misleading, if it is intended to give the idea that it means 24-7 nice guy, whatever the political majority.

Say 90% of the world is Islamic, project the fate of the l0%. Could they live under non-Shariah law or not (in your view)?

BD and FH, this is great news. It's surprising how moved I was when I read this, given that I've never met either of you. As someone else said (was it Belly?) this is cause for hope. If you two can connect anything's possible.

I really do hope you remain friends and help others understand how little is ultimately achieved by closed minds.

A toast to you.

BD, I've not got any interest in doing a bible study on your terms. Your arguments sidestep the basic reality that you persistantly attack Islam because of the violence in the quran (their core documents) while sidestepping or claiming justification for the violence in the bible. No doubt many muslims could find justification for the violence in the Quran as well. History has shown that some christains are quite capable of using the bible to justify violence against others.

What it really boils down to is how people choose to live, not what others read into their religious texts.

You are correct when pointing out that a 'Pharaoh who knew not BD' might arise. On the other hand the risk in Australia is much more likely to be a 'Pharaoh who knew not FH'. Those who want to portray all of those who consider others a risk because they do hold differing beliefs and they don't happen to know the individuals. I've not noticed any muslims in the likely line up to be the next PM.

R0bert

BD, I forgot to address a point from your post that always fascinates me.

"It just seems you are placing yourself above God. (no offense there) You are asserting "God SHOULD have revealed Himself 'this' way..to my liking"

A point where you and are far, far, far more often in agreement than disagreement. I'm not sure how many idea's of god are in the human space - not just the main religions but every individuals interpretation of their faith. Even within the framework of a bible based monothiestic belief centered on the christian trinity and the person of Jesus Christ there is a massive number of viewpoints about the character and revelation of god.

But lets be kind here, assume that there were only 1 billion differing ideas's about god which have been held to date and that about 1 million of them were broadly interpretations of the christain god of the bible. A massive understatement I expect. Those idea's include athiesim and agnosticism.

You reject to some degree or other 999,999,999,999 of those ideas. You have used your intellect, world view, experience etc to decide that from what you have seen the evidence best fits one view. You are I suspect open to the possibility that you may have some of that detail wrong so will consider the possibility that one of 1000 or so other interpretations of how god has been revealed may be correct and place yourself above 999,999,999,000 of those ideas about god.

I also take the view that one understanding is the best that I can find but I may be wrong in some detail so I can accept the possibility that some other views may be correct.

My placing myself above your god to decide how he or she should have been revealed is no different to what you do to the gods at the heart of beliefs that you don't hold or to the god at the center of many other monothiestic, bible believing christain's understanding of the nature of god.

R0bert

To those who have shared kind words about our meeting.. including those who normally have rather 'harsh' words for Islam, the point I really want to make here, (besides thanking you all for sharing) is that the driving force in my own life is the love of Christ.
Yes...I know.. 'but those diatribes..those rants...those hysterical foamings at the mouth'..... no..very few of those are directed at anyone on this forum, they are directed at ideas... foundations...motives.

I can honestly say (FH don't blush now :) that my feeling for FH is one of genuine affection and kindness. I would find it difficult to maintain such a view if he was espousing the same kind of doctrines driving those who are currently blowing themselves up at the Red mosque and around Pakistan. But that's the point.. he is not like that. I feel so sorry for those in Pakistan, Iraq, and Afghanistan who are hurling themselves into eternity in a flash of explosive, all on the strength of what they have been fed by 'dark forces' who see in them a convenient tool of advancing an evil agenda.

FH and I differ in our understanding of what the connection is between the foundations of Islam and their behavior, I think he would say they 'misunderstand and misinterpret' whereas I feel there are some grounds for connecting the actions with the ideas. We can agree to differ on that. I attribute that difference of understanding to FH's sufi connections/background more than an objective interpretation of Islam. (you can bop me later for that one mate :)

Rob, you are still hung up on 'violence' in too general a way. If you took the trouble to sus out those verses, it would indeed be helpful. I hope others will do so.

There is a difference between 'reporting' violence as history, reporting violence as 'one of' acts of Judgement, and "advocating" it for all time, based on supposed eternal principles. Don't you see that Rob ?

I have also met up with fellow-human. He is the charming young fellow that Boaz described. But he and I have never quarreled on OLO, we formed an alliance of two tolerant people. Perhaps I shall have to meet with David Boaz as well. I have always thought of him as a bigot, apparently I was totally wrong. Perhaps all three of us will have to meet together, but I warn you both I cannot be converted, if I get funny and get a religious bug before I die it will be back to Judaism. I happen to regard it as the least silly of them all. My father brought me up to be tolerant particularly of other peoples views.

All the best to you both. Inshalla, God speed, shalom.

LOGIC...that would be a delightful experience..and maybe the beginnings of an OLO get2gether :)

Anytime.. I'm in Melbourne, and I'll look up FH in Sydney.. where are you ?

Don't confuse 'passionate' for bigotry :)

OOps...I neglected the best bit of your post Logic :)

Let me reply with one word PAUL.... here is his pre-conversion condition.

Galatians 1

13For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

Phillipians: 3:5

4though I myself have reasons for such confidence.(In Judaism)
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

But then....Oh.the glorious 'then'.. in the next verse he says:

7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things.

There is only one word which can describe this HALELUJAH.

So, while I respect your position and determination... I would never close the book on "Will Logic become as I am..in Christ" because as Paul discovered.....sometimes it does not depend on 'us' :)

David

You can get me on pcohen@controlsmart.com.au

But regarding religion, don't raise your hopes. I regard religions as
attempts to understand the meaning of life. Moses, Jesus, Mahomet, Suddarhta were all adding their understanding, to something which we will never know, unless something is revealed after death.

But a Deity if one exists has not given us sufficient evidence of its existence, only documents by observers, written generally after the event, and even these conflict. I can only assume that we are meant to come to conclusions by our collective reasoning, how else can we explain the lack of measurable facts. A creator would have known that we were bound to establish scientific method, either the creator does not exists or does not intend us to know the whole truth.

That is why I prefer faiths like Judaism and Buddhism which allow for those of other faiths or even atheists to receive the benefits of the Deity.