Hate, we all hate, right now we seem to be powered by hate
Even me, hate of faith race party politics, them, any one.
How can hare deliver outcomes,what are the outcomes hate has or can achieve
Is hate healthy? will it bring a better world
What can hate of others change, can the world ever stop using hate to fail to find better out comes?
harsh subject, even a risky one, my purpose in such a thread?
I want to question is there a middle way, a way we can resolve issues that bring us to hate

Belly,

Hate is a healthy state if the hate is directed against evil.

I hate paedophiles, don't you?

On a lighter note, I hate pork, but not when it's in sausages.

Her Majesty has two dorgi ( dachsund-corgi) Vulcan and Candy,and will allow her taxpayers to play with them for hate rage therapy. Dogs are well known to assist senile , degenerate , republican gutter scum and brushing their fleas is soothing ,Belly.

Well yes, buis hate the answer? what if we set out to stop the sexualisation of children?
Said no pedaphile would ever again be free once convicted?
Could we in say twenty years stop offenders? is hate the only answer
We hate difference, we hate those who are not like us.
Is that an answer or a symptom of something we need to adress?
Say people from the Island of never existed start migrating here.
Dreadful people! wear their clothes on back to front and have long hair combed over their faces.
We can not tell if they are smiling or snarling at us?
Could both sides get together, and work out why the differences?
Hate is a weapon used to divide and used to win one sides point of view

//On a lighter note, I hate pork//

You're a monster.

Toni,

Not entirely, I like it in sausages, especially the small ones that ALDI stocks.
I was also partial to sugar cured bacon in Ireland, but also there the bacon was 90% meat.

pork belly , anyone?

//Not entirely, I like it in sausages//

Yeah, so do I. But there are other nice bits of the pig apart from their snouts and arseholes.

//I was also partial to sugar cured bacon in Ireland, but also there the bacon was 90% meat.//

Well that sounds decidedly unnatural, I prefer my meat to be 100% meat. I presume the other 10% is some soy protein or similar crap. Sounds nasty. I think I'll stick to traditional salted, smoked, dead pig, the way nature intended.

Also, if you prefer your meat-like products to be mostly meat, I'd steer clear of the snags. I'm not sure what the legal minimum meat content in an Aussie pork sausage is (it's 42% in Britain, apparently) but I'd bet that it's somewhat less than 90%. And breadcrumbs are cheaper than dead pig, even the snouts and arseholes.

yes like pork belly, still the arival of those pipe bombs needs thought,
remember the lunatic who traveled across America to shoot up a shop, because other lunatics told him and everyone who would listen,, Clinton ran a child sex ring from there?
Now those pipe bombs, sure we all know, like a recent ratbag published story about a candidate in Wentworth,could be an insider thing, from the side under attack.
Such are the benefits of harnessing and using blind hate
Humanity we once believed, was better than that

IS don't eat pork unless that's a porkie.

Toni,

"I was also partial to sugar cured bacon in Ireland, but also there the bacon was 90% meat."
I should have added "and 10% fat".

Can't abide the local fatty bacon.

Venison is much, much nicer and I have 6 months supply in the freezer.

Hate, we all hate,
Belly,
I don't ! I strongly disagree with those devoid of sense but I honestly can not get myself to hate anyone.
I could easily be one in a firing squad but I still don't hate.
Hate is terrible. Hate is inhumane. Hate is most likely just another form of stupidity along the lines of greed.

"I could easily be one in a firing squad but I still don't hate."
A firing squad is like an abattoir where Abbott and pigs are processed without hate. Maybe that's progress.

nickname nick,
If you're referring to inhumane humans such as deadbeat drug abusers & rapists then you're on the dot.

It sound like you're asking yourself as much as your asking the rest of us Belly. And with that in mind I think this is a good question to measure ourselves up by.

Here's my take on it. From my observation, anger and hate are hard to restrain. In those states of mind acting justly instead of overzealous in our punishments or our reactions is a huge concern. Which is why the wisdom to take a day or a few hours to calm down before speaking in anger or acting in anger is such good advice. (In marriage and parenting especially, but for anything else as well). It's also why it's such a good idea to have legal guidelines regarding the judicial system. That way we have limits on punishments we prescribe.

As for resolving having hate in our actions or our views. Here's a few thoughts as well. Conquer evil by doing good. Don't return evil for evil. Let justice be in the hands of the authorities and instead for ourselves look at it from a perspective of trying to redeem another person, or to avoid them if redeeming them is not an option. If we act on things from those principles then through practice I think it will be easier to not hate.

Don't be angry about this, but most of these conclusions are my conclusions while considering bible lessons. There's several that I think apply in this topic of hate. I only mention this because if you wanted more detail on what I mean, you'll not be angry if I go into more detail. Or if I approach it from other considerations as well. However if you don't want more detail, then at least I can give you some thoughts on hate without directly referencing where those conclusions stemmed from. (Without sparking your own anger, due to your anger on religion).

Hope this helps and hope you're doing well.

-Heath

One other characteristic that might help remove hate from ya. Strive to be humble.

In the way that a person would consider others as their equals or their betters they might not step up to string them up in their arguments or fights. If someone holds others as their equal or their betters, then the casual consideration that they might be right can penetrate old arguments and personality clashes. Might help look at the issues instead of the people.

The other way to strive to be humble is to acknowledge your own mistakes, emberessments, failures, even the wrongs you've done that have harmed others. We've all done these from one time or another in our lives. Remembering them hopefully will help humble ourselves before coming to bat against eachother in our hate or our anger. With this approach it's a little easier to look at others with concern and to try to redeem them, instead of try to make an example out of them. At least this helps to try to treat others the way I'd like to be treated, without neglecting what needs to be done, or a correction and critism that I assume is needed. But when it gets out of hand and you can't be around someone without a history of anger boil over. Then give them space, and walk away. Even if they count that as a win in a debate, it's as much for your benifit as it is theirs to walk away from it all.

Not Now Soon thanks and I am well
You force me to confront a truth about me, my hate is beif,
I call for death sentence for some crimes, yet support life in prison rather than death always
And like to think my whole being wants a more caring world.
I however can not overlook the blind hate that is used as a weapon
The Scottsboro boys, the hate that made south Africa apartheid, the joy Nelson Mandela bought to that country and the world
Nazi hate, American Christian right hate
Hate is blind, it can never deliver outcomes that are not evil, afraid my question remains
Why so we, or some of us, blindly hate

"Why so we, or some of us, blindly hate"

Ignorance is a big part of it.

In this world where there is light there are also
shadows. We've all been born with the capacity for
aggression as well as compassion. Which tendencies
we embrace requires mindful choices - by individuals,
families, communities, and our culture in general.

The key to overcoming hate is education, at home,
in schools, and in the community.

Charity begins at OLO.

I don't hate & I don't get angry. I may get a little Miffed at times. Some one once told me that I was devoid of all emotion. I wouldn't say that exactly. It wouldn't be entirely correct, but close I suppose.

It's just that I like to stay in control at all times. This does bother some people & it annoys the buggery out of others, especially if they are purposely trying to press your buttons. I just love exposing their games, which of course, upsets them greatly.

My teacher was my first Wife & some Feminists Social Workers trying desperately to get something to use against me. My lack of emotion is a result of defeating them at their own game. I found it works well everywhere. It allows me to always keep a clear head when Chaos is all around. Apparently that's not allowed a Lawyer once told me.

If you Love or Hate too deeply then all reason goes out the window.

Sorry Belly, hate is a lefty thing. You only have to look at the lefties or the greenies at a protest to see the hate they exude. This is why protests are such a lefty thing.

I can't be bothered hating anyone, not even the greenies who are happy to destroy others dreams & work to achieve their mostly rabid ratbag objectives. Disgust, now you have it. I find greenies totally disgusting, but would still not cross the street to do them harm.

Not having been to war I do not know if I would hate an enemy of my country, but without that, hate is so debilitating, & is the destroyer of all reason, something to be avoided.

Hasbeen! you must live in a vacuum, Trump masters hate, in the very same way Hitler and his servants did.
Mixed with lies invented horror storeys he is hate.
Yes hate is a failure, it can never achieve outcomes that are any use.
Hasbeens use of the lefty junk comment, bought about by Trumps no longer United States of America,is all the evidence I need, the left is an invention of the far right.
To what end? can ever increasing division not hurt the whole country.
NNS in a comment above made me confront a truth,one that pleases me, I despise some but hate no one

People who murder unborn babies hate very much

Sorry Belly!

Your response to Trump says it all about lefties & hate.

runner,

No runner - it's people who have strong opinions on
things they know nothing about - and make vile judgements
that spreads hatred.

Hasbeen,

It's good to learn that you don't hate - especially
the ABC and others you don't agree with.
Maturity as they say - is realizing how many things
don't require your opinion.
Onja.

The Bible is not a good source if one is looking for a document that goes against hate. It postulates a vengeful erratic God who destroys almost all life on earth because he is bothered by the actions of some humans. He condemns his own son to an agonising death. Considering religious wars, Inquisition etc. It would seem to me one step toward eliminating hate would be to treat the Bible as we treat the Greek and other myths - a source of fable, pleasant and unpleasant, but not anything to live by. The record of the missionary religions, Christianity and Islam, do not qualify them as a force against hate. They both have the illusion that if everybody believed what they believed it would be a better world. I think it would be a better world if everyone could believe what they liked but could not do what they liked if it hurt others.

There is no point in hating paedophiles. We could try to find out what causes people to become a paedophile and eliminate the causes. If we cannot do that we can identify them and prevent them from doing the damage they do.

Kant had a recipe against hate. "People should never be seen as a means to an end; they are the end. Morality can be grounded in reason. It does not have to be connected with any form of supernatural mumbojumbo

Foxy it is like homosexuality, left attitudes & climate change believers.

I am not prepared to put enough effort into understanding the attitudes of any of the above.

If I am not prepared to put in enough effort to understand them, I certainly have no right to hate them

Hasbeen,

Fair enough.

People only understand from their level of
perception.

The only thing Hate is good for is tying yourself into knots. It has no effect on the person or thing you hate.

Hasbeen: You only have to look at the lefties or the greenies at a protest to see the hate they exude. This is why protests are such a lefty thing.

Exactly.

And what's a Right-Wing thing?

Stabbing a Prime Minister in the back then
blaming him for bleeding on the carpet and
not cleaning up the mess ( not helping win in Wentworth)?

Delusions of adequacy?

Bible? look at it this way why would God let so many other Gods exist?
Once the American Christian right became Trump supporters any claim to Godliness died
Like the continuing support for Trump, it proves my point you can sell an extremist any thing
Hate, blind hate, is Trump's main weapon

Dear Belly,

When you elect a bigot, the bigotry increases.

Now back to the topic...

There's ample evidence in historical records that
hate has very deep roots. We read about the etnic
cleansing of the Rohingya - a Muslim ethnic
minority in Myanmar who continue to be brutally
raped, tortured and killed by military militias
for no apparent reason other than hate. And this in
a primarily Buddhist culture ruled by a gentle woman -
Daw Aung San Suu Kyi who received the Nobel Prize
for Peace in 1991.

We know about the killing fields that have existed
within recent memory. Their existence reminds us all
of the veracity of hate.

I fear that our world can become so obsessed with the
problems of hatred and aggression, that it will allow
peace and love to be regarded as soft and weak. Yet
our survival depends on their dominance.

Stephen Vincent Benet's prophecy may just come true if we're
not careful:

"Oh where are you coming from soldier, gaunt soldier
With weapons beyond any reach of my mind
With weapons so deadly
The world must grow older
And die in its tracks if it does not turn kind."

How much does our world spend on the arms bill?
While ever more people suffer from illiteracy, ill
health and chronic hunger.

We need new ways of thinking to cope with the nuclear
age.

Yeats described it well:

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

David F.,

Thank You.

Peace is that quiet time whilst everyone stands around reloading.

Is Mise,

Shades of Thomas Jefferson? - however it's not a
brief glorious moment at all. It's hard to re-load
with missing limbs. The reality of war is brutal.

Foxy,

"Peace is that quiet time whilst everyone stands around reloading"

Who said that it was a glorious moment?

I know that war is brutal; been there, and more than once.

Foxy: We read about the ethnic cleansing of the Rohingya - a Muslim ethnic minority in Myanmar who continue to be brutally raped, tortured and killed by military militias for no apparent reason other than hate.

We have for many years read about the moslim Terrorist Groups in Myanmar. Either you are blind or you are purposely ignoring the fact that the Rohingya are an immigrant group who fled India in 1945 during the Partition?

The reason the Myanmar Government reacted was because one of these moslim Terrorist Groups burnt down a Buddhist Village massacred the Buddhist people & destroyed the Buddhist Temple. But we won't worry about that little fact, will we Foxy?

Since 1945 the Rohingya have been engaged in what Moslems do best. Terrorising the local Buddhist Population. 73 years. The Myanmar Government has finally got sick of putting up with the Rohingya hate towards Buddhists & have acted to rid the Country of this Islamic Scourge.

I really don’t have a problem with that. It’s not done with hate of the Rohingya, it done with love of their own people.

I just wish that Australia would follow Myanmar’s example & rid itself of moslems before it gets to the stage it did in Myanmar, with moslim Terrorist Groups attacking & killing Australians. That day is getting closer & closer. Also, not done with hate towards moslims but with a love of Australia.

Strangely , the Karen in Myanmar are church people getting the same treatment from the Buddhists . Peacefully and kindly the whole sorry lot including faithful atheists must leave Australia . I'm sorry but there's no other way to find a bit of peace and quiet.

Trump masters hate,
Belly,
You couldn't be more wrong even with help from others just as wrong !

Belly: Trump masters hate,

Yes, it's the Democrats that are dealing out the hate.

If one feels it's always the people on the other side who are at fault conflict will continue. Quite often one side mirrors the other. The left mirrors the right, and the right mirrors the left. There are humans on both sides of the barricades. We fear the 'beasts' on the other side of the wall.

Let's just for a moment look at the hate Trump is supposed to dish out according to those wh view responsibility & compassion as a fad.
How many times do we read of Trump's divisiveness ? He is not divisive, only those who lack real compassion & a sense of responsibility are the divisive ones because he does what needed to be done years ago. He's dealing with the hangers-on & they don't like it one bit. He's not devisive, he's managing the rott.

To Belly.

Two thoughts. One, what is the difference between despising something verses hating? I've found often people who play word games with similar words are mostly trying to avoid that they indeed do something they don't want to admit that they do. If you can clarify a good difference between despise and hate great, then let us know how you have one but not the other. If on the other hand you can't separate the two, then that might be better. You already feel strongly against hate, if you recognize when you have hate (or when you despise), then you can look at those areas within yourself to improve how you are.

The second thought is to challenge the idea that hate can not accomplish anything. I'm not for hating, but I can also recognize a few times in my life when my hating something became the motivation to do something about that issue. For me that example came from dealing with an insurance company that I grew to despise more and more. My anger was the motivation to fix the issues they presented me. So I called them every day on break for two and a half weeks till everything was resolved.

I'm not proud of my anger on that, or how I acted. And looking back it is a behavior I will try not to repeat. But the anger did accomplish what it was after. An unfortunate truth is that hate is a motivating emotion that can often get results. But it turns us into monsters usually, regardless of results. It's worth recognizing in ourselves when we have it, to make sure we don't continue in the hatred boiling within us.

To David. Your hatred towards Christianity and the bible are noted. Several times from conversations before this one. But as for the points I made for avoiding hatred, do you disagree with them? Or do you only disagree because those points came from studying the bible? Don't turn this conversation into another topic of your hatred towards Christianity. I think a real look at the topic of hatred can be worth while for any of us. Especially if it can expose the things we can work on for ourselves and those we interact with so hatred is not an issue that each of us does.

Dear NNS,

I see no necessity to continue to deal with the horrors of Christianity and Islam, the two main missionary religions. If you want to go on about why one superstition is somehow superior to the other superstition you will do so.

Neither the Bible nor the pagan myths are evil in themselves. We should recognise both as being products of their times and glean what we can from them.

I agree with you that hatred is or can be a motivating force. You wrote:

"Conquer evil by doing good." Evil remains and is not conquered by one doing good. However, by doing evil we become evil. We should do good if we want to be good.

You also wrote: "Let justice be in the hands of the authorities and instead for ourselves look at it from a perspective of trying to redeem another person, or to avoid them if redeeming them is not an option."

I think one should question the authorities and not assume they will provide justice. I think we should realize that sometimes there will be injustice whatever we do. I think it is arrogant to presume one can redeem another person. That assumes you decide another person is in need of redemption. Redemption is something one has to do for themselves. I think some of your ideas are wrong, but I will just have to accept you for what you are rather than assume I can redeem you. I don’t think either of us need redemption from the other. We just differ and will continue to differ.

Dear NNS,

You also wrote: “At least this helps to try to treat others the way I'd like to be treated, without neglecting what needs to be done, or a correction and critism that I assume is needed. But when it gets out of hand and you can't be around someone without a history of anger boil over. Then give them space, and walk away. Even if they count that as a win in a debate, it's as much for your benifit as it is theirs to walk away from it all.”

If I treated you the way I like to be treated you might not like it. You might not want to be treated that way. I think it is a better idea to find out how the other person wants to be treated rather than merely treat them the way you like to be treated. It may not be possible or good for you to treat the other person the way they would like to be treated.


Here again you decide what needs to be done. Why not find what the other person thinks needs to be done? Sometimes you will not agree. We have had discussions in the past and disagreed on what needs to be done.

I agree that sometimes it is best merely to walk away even if the other person counts it as a win.

I think you are securely encased in the arms of superstition. You apparently would like others to join you in your superstition. However, we are both human and will continue to differ.

I wanted to question mass hate, while yes our personal hate is probably little different.
NNS I too, often, even here, regrete my anger, despise? rare but not used lightly, no current politician here or in America, but some past ones, even in my team.
Hate, blind unthinking hate,like that person retained by the FBI this morning, see his van?
It warned, unfocused person inside, a danger existed.
Hate divides America, is it worth it? can a country so divided ever be good?
I am a dreamer, will forever believe we can and should live together, not use tools like hate to win office, but in the end destroy what we wanted to control Hate is never an answer

" I think it is a better idea to find out how the other person wants to be treated rather than merely treat them the way you like to be treated."
Isn't finding out what you need the way you would like to be treated?
Cafes and restaurants work that way with menus I hate chili.

Subject too hard, well hate is a failure on our part but never the less it exists often blindly

David

"I see no necessity to continue to deal with the horrors of Christianity and Islam,"

The difference is that the horrors perpetrated by Christians are contrary to the teachings of their founder, the horrors perpetrated by Muslims are in accord with the teachings of their founder

Dear Is Mise,

Christianity and Islam are defined by how Christians and Muslims behave - not by the intentions of their founders. From my reading of history both Christianity and Islam have behaved horribly. The founder of Christianity was Paul. Jesus lived and died a Jew - not a Christian. 80% of the Bible was written by non-Christians. Christians have rejected the religion of Jesus and formed a new religion which was not the religion of Jesus. Both religions are superstitious entities as are most religions.

Dear David, we are discussing "Hate" as a Subject, not Religious Institutions. I just thought I'd remind you of that, just incase you didn't get the message.

Things like this Miff me a little.

Jayb.,

Religion has been brought up as a subject in this
discussion and you are not under any obligation
to join in if it bothers you.

Hate is in my view a symptom of our inability to be one humanity.
Had this planet had no oceans we may have been one people.
But we still may have found reasons to hate.
Politics is now using hate to explain its inability to bring us together.
Yes religion has been bought to the thread it is my view right now Christianity, Islam, and the Jewish faith have elements within each that thrive on blind hate

To Belly.

In my opinion, the only way to fix issues that occure in the masses is to do better with them as individuals. When it comes to hate I think this is especially so. Take any issue of group hate, from racism, sexism, or hatred to a specific philosophy or politics. If you apply the points to keep you from hate in those elements then you help to keep it at bay to those who around you as well. (You're not that influential to stop them from everything but we are all Influential in some ways to those around us).

To go back to it, the suggestions to stop hatred is to:

1) take some time before reacting in anger. An hour or a day before saying or doing something in the heat of the moment.
2). Don't return evil for evil. But instead you can conquer evil by doing good. If nothing else it will break the chain reactions of getting back on the other guy. If you do this regularly it'll do much more too. Change the heart of a hateful person by being the example of unmoving love in spite of being wronged.

(Continued)

(Continued)

3). Let justice be in the hands of the authorities. Instead of trying to right the wrongs placed on us (and too often causing more wrongs to do so), let it be in the hands of those who hold the responsibility to look after the people.
4). If you can do #3 then strive to also look at people with compassion. Strive to redeem them, even from themselves if that's the case. By doing this you change no longer look for the things to hate someone by.
5). If you can't do #4 then walk away. Have nothing to do with them. Some of the hardest stories I know are from a parent having to let their kids go on their own, lose ties with them. Because they can't help them from a drug addiction. It's sad and hard, but do this to anyone; to a stranger and to your loved ones, you won't hate them.

6). Strive to be humble by considering everyone else as your equal or your better.
7). Strive to be humble by acknowledging your own errors.
_______________

Doing 6 and 7 will help you to treat others the way you want to be treated instead of being arrogant to others.

David,

Christians are followers of Christ and Muslims are followers of Muhammad; neither Christ nor Muhammad could have been followers of themselves.
Read a bit more history.

Dear Is Mise,

I have read quite a bit of history. Christ was not a Christian. He was the leader of a Jewish sect and was a Jew. If Christians were really followers of Christ they would follow his religion and be Jews also. Paul founded a new religion in the name of Christ who was not a Christian. Mohammed did indeed found a new religion. Jesus did not. How can one be a follower of Christ and not follow his religion?

Australia is not the Australian continent? Jesus was not very Jewish, he did a lot of things on Sabbaths and defined the Pharisees in un-Jewish terms.

Let justice be in the hands of the authorities.
not_now.soon,
Isn't the futility of this the cause of so many problems ?
The authorities are a massive handicap with their inept meddling in affairs they have no clue of !

NNS: take some time before reacting in anger. An hour or a day before saying or doing something in the heat of the moment.

Yep that’s a good idea. I just don’t react & I let them rant on. Pisses them off.

NNS: Don't return evil for evil. But instead you can conquer evil by doing good. If nothing else it will break the chain reactions of getting back on the other guy.

Don’t argue back. Just smile. Really pisses them off.

NNS: If you do this regularly it'll do much more too. Change the heart of a hateful person by being the example of unmoving love in spite of being wronged.

No, it won’t. Some people are just born angry or nasty. Every Street has one. There’s nothing you can do & if you do do something they take offense at it anyway. I just smile & say a great cheery hello xxx how things today. In fact the whole street makes a point of saying a cheery hello to him. 😉. Pisses him off no end.

Foxy: Religion has been brought up as a subject in this discussion and you are not under any obligation
to join in if it bothers you.

Yes, it has been & you introduced it first. Now let’s get back to the Basic issue of hate without bringing Religion into it. It’s a Red Herring.

Jayb,

A small correction. I did not introduce religion to
this discussion. What I was discussing on page 6 -
which you seem to have misunderstood - was the
verocity of hate, conflict, and war. Unfortunately
I made the mistake of choosing Muslims as an example
which seemed to get your ire up - and ended in attempts
by you to come up with insults. I should have given a
different example - but my intention was to focus on
the harm that hate can do. So I suppose I did make my
point with your reaction.

David F., brought up religion on page 8.

Dear Foxy,

I responded to Not_Now.Soon. He addressed me when he wrote: "But as for the points I made for avoiding hatred, do you disagree with them?"

I agreed with some of the points he made and disagreed with others. However, he was the one who first mentioned religion in accusing me of hate for the Bible and Christianity.

Dear David F.,

My apologies, of course you're right.

Foxy: I should have given a different example - but my intention was to focus on the harm that hate can do. So I suppose I did make my point with your reaction.

I don't think there in any hatred in what the Myanmar Government is doing. There is a problem with the type of Refugees that have entered their Country & settled illegally then started abusing their status by murdering the local people because they weren't moslims.

The Government took a stand, not out of hatred, but out of safety & the protection of their own people.

They did what anyone would & should do when there is a problem. Find the source & & fix it. They did & I commend them for that. Now , if only Australia could recognize that we will have a similar problem in 20 years time as has happened in Myanmar & now in Europe Australia could fix the problem by stopping any more moslims from entering our Country & sending those who don't play by Australia's Rules home now.

Nothing to do with hate, just recognizing a problem before it starts & dealing with it now, rather than later, in a calm positive manner. that's all.

David,

" Both religions are superstitious entities as are most religions."

Which ones are not?

So Paul was the founder of Christianity?

What about the eleven Apostles who were left after Judas topped himself?

Funny thing about history, I always understood that Paul was a persecutor of Christians until his experience on the road to Damascus.
http://www.osv.com/OSVNewsweekly/Story/TabId/2672/ArtMID/13567/ArticleID/16755/From-persecutor-to-Christian-The-conversion-of-St-Paul.aspx

Apparently, your version of history has Paul persecuting Christians before he founded them.

Dear Is Mise,

There was a Jewish sect which followed Jesus. They were persecuted by Paul. However, it was Paul who got gentiles to become Christians. The original followers of Christ were Jews. Paul extended Christianity to non-Jews who did not have to follow the Jewish laws such as the dietary laws and circumcision. You see in the stores hams for Easter. Jesus never ate ham. He was a Jew who followed the Jewish law. Paul created a new religion whose communicants did not follow the Jewish law. They did not follow the religion of Jesus. Christians do not follow Jesus since they reject his religion. The Jewish followers of Jesus that Paul persecuted were wiped out in the failed Jewish revolt against the Romans. The people around now who call themselves Christians have the religion started by Paul. It is not the same religion as the religion of the Jewish followers of Jesus that Paul persecuted.

To Foxy, Jayb, and David.

I am the one who brought up religion in my first post on page 3. When I brought it up it was not a focus, it was to alert people that my views stemmed from studying the bible. If Belly or anyone else wanted more information on where I was coming from, I could go into that direction. I wanted to give that much of a warning so people would be prepared and not angry if the conversation went in that direction. After that on page 5 (I assume because I said I studied the bible) David when into the topic of the bible specifically dismissing it from anything about the topic of hatred. Belly also commented in that direction (I assume because of David's comment) on page 6. Page 8 I decided to head it straight on and told David to focus on the topic of hatred regardless of his opinions on Christianity and the bible. Specifically I challenged him to look at the points I made on page three regarding fending off hatred. David did address several of the points I made (while making another quip on Christianity and Islam). To which I haven't yet defended.

Ok now that everything's been summed up. Let's move on.

To David F.

•Conquer evil by doing good.

You said that good does not conquer evil. I disagree. Try it you'll see what I mean. When a person wrongs you, if you repay them later with still something good (or with silence), then they will either be ashamed of what they did or otherwise change their attitude and behavior to you. Or if their purpose is to get a rise out of you, seeing nothing happened they will move on to try it with someone else. On the other hand if you try to repay them with a similar action (for getting even or a sense of justice) then the evil that was passed to you is passed back to them. Too often making a cycle of intensifying behaviors and harsher words between the two people. In essence if you don't conquer evil done to you by doing good (or by walking away) then what you do is breed more evil into the situation.

More then just a reaction between two people if you show kindness to someone it takes the edge off of some of their bad day if they were having a bad day. It might conquer an evil they were going to do later on because their mood calmed and aren't going to take their frustrations earlier in the day, and be the motivation to take it out on someone else later.

These are my observations, not just my philosophy. I've seen it work out this way, and it goes back to the idea of doing things to redeem each other. Another way to look at it is that the world is broken too often. Be the salt of the world that makes it last, and keeps it from crumbling. Be the light of the world and shine on it with several things that count as the light. But kindness, compassion, and goodness among them.

(Continued)

(Continued)

•Let justice be in the hands of the authorities.

You're point is that authorities don't always provide justice. But here is where it goes. If someone wrongs you, if it's not bad enough to call the cops on them, then don't seek out justice in the matter on your own. If it was still bad enough, address it to them directly, first privately just between the two of you, then if that doesn't help address it to them with a few witnesses, who can then gauge who was in the right and who was in the wrong. If it has to go above that point, but still not a call the police issue, then yes leave it up to the authorities. Take it to the leaders in your community, whether it's a judge in a court or the HR department at a job, or the elders of the church. Give it to those who's responsibility is to look after the community.

If it is bad enough to call the cops and justice isn't served, then you have two options. Let it go, or pressure the authorities on the need for justice on this matter. But it's in their hands from there.

(Continued)

(Continued)

•don't look at it from a perspective of getting even and serving justice on who wronged you. Instead look at it from a perspective of redeeming them.

David your counter point is that it's arrogant to try to redeem another, and instead to not do it. However throughout our lives being redeemed is what we all need. Consider a child. Their parents love him, but if he lies, hits other kids, or takes toys away from them it's up to the parent to correct their son. In that way from even an early age we are redeemed from a bad behavior to be taught in ways to make up good, responsible adults by the time we leave the parent's nest.

Later on in life most people screw something up. Teens wreck a car, anger flares, or inexperience on something makes you try to "fix" something that really ends up breaking it or harming it. In those instances there are several ways to redeem a person from their failures. And by redeem I mean that they are no longer counted against that person, nor does the person keep on doing the same thing. Whether it's facing a consequence, forgiving them, or trying to teach them a better way to be, the effort to make each of us better is a consistent part of our lives. If we focus on that aspect to redeem each other instead of getting back at them, then we solve a huge chunk of the issues relating to hate. However if you realize you can't do this, then let them go, and walk away from them. Have nothing to do with them.

(Continued)

(Continued)

•Treat others the way you want to be treated.

Your counter thought is to treat people the way they want to be treated instead. Two thoughts. One Nicknamednick already brought up. Knowing how they want to be treated and acting accordingly is actually part of treating them the way you want to be treated, because we all want that from others as well.

Second thought is that it's not practical to just keep asking people if it's ok to do this or do that. Honestly if I needed anyone's permission to give them my kindness, too often they would say no because no one likes to admit they need help or ask for help. Instead, if you are kind to them because you know you would want kindness, then too often they will appreciate it. So in reaction to your view to treat others the way they want to be treated, Here's my view. You don't need another's permission to be kind to them. Nor do you need to interview them to know how to be kind to them. Just treat them how you want to be treated. If you are honest to yourself on how you'd like to be treated in that situation then it'll be a rare time when it isn't received well.

It is my honest opinion Trump farms hate, that he uses it to gain and keep support.
Too that in using it he divides America
Can some one tell me the positive out comes of hate, any hate any positives.
Yet again this morning, 4 dead multiple injures in a Jewish place of worship.
Hate
OK some of us are concerned at Israels actions on its boarders,killing unarmed protesters, is hate, with them or against them, going to have a good out come?
How can hate, any hate, unite the world.
Just maybe we lost our way, [all humanity] and need to think about ways to achieve better out comes

JayB
The Karen Christians in Myanmar kill Buddhists. What will you do about gay abusing gun-owning leftie bank-executive anti-muslim church
movie-pirates?

Davidf,
The apostle John was still going around the year 90 and wrote Revelation inspired by Jesus. Paul had retired about 30 years previously.

Df: The Jewish followers of Jesus that Paul persecuted were wiped out in the failed Jewish revolt against the Romans.

No, that didn’t happen until after the Nicene Council when the Pauline Bishops went on a Crusade & killed all the Bishops of the Churches started by the Disciples. Around 350 AD.

Df: The people around now who call themselves Christians have the religion started by Paul. It is not the same religion as the religion of the Jewish followers of Jesus that Paul persecuted.

Yes, Paul was kicked out of the Disciples Church in Jerusalem in about 45 AD. by the disciples. He then left Jerusalem & started his own mission.

What’s this got to do with the Hate subject.

Belly: It is my honest opinion Trump farms hate, that he uses it to gain and keep support.

I don’t think he does in the way you think. The hate from the Democrats was there well before he was elected. It got worse after he was elected. Democrats = Labor. In America they take everything to extremes. Especially the Democrats. Sour grapes & Hate on the part of the Democrats.

Nnk: The Karen Christians in Myanmar kill Buddhists.

Yes, there have been a few clashes because the Buddhists (different Tribal Group) have been encroaching on Karen Traditional areas. Nothing to do with Religion or Hate. It’s purely in defence of Tribal Territory.

Nnk: What will you do about gay abusing gun-owning leftie bank-executive anti-muslim church.

You got me there. I haven’t a clue what you are on about.

JayB
Are you saying Paul had a hit-squad in Rome for jihad against the infidel followers of Peter ?
The Papal Basilica of St. Paul , is one of Rome's four ancient, papal, major basilicas. Pope John Paul explained that Paul wore a suicide vest in a martyr attack on Peter whose bones were then available for church-building.

"1948 the KNU demanded an independent Karen-Mon state which would surround Rangoon.. On Christmas Eve a locally raised ethnic Burman Sitwundan group threw handgrenades into a church in Palaw, killing eighty Christian Karen. The following weeks hundreds of Karen were murdered by Sitwundan and Socialist groups for which KNDO troops starting retaliating. The Kayin People's Party (KPP) was created in early 2010, predominantly set up by Christian Karen from Yangon and Irrawaddy river delta regions ".

Keep Christians out of your local community.

Jayb,

I am not going to argue with you about the Rohingya
crisis. As I explained earlier - what was happening
there was driven by the verocity of hate. You see
things from the government's point of view. I see
things from a historical point of view. If You want to
learn more - you can read the following links
which may help:

http://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/rohingya-crisis

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41222210

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41566561

David,

You said,

"Both religions are superstitious entities as are most religions."

Which ones, in your opinion, are not are not?

Dear NNS.

You wrote: David your counter point is that it's arrogant to try to redeem another, and instead to not do it. However throughout our lives being redeemed is what we all need. Consider a child. Their parents love him, but if he lies, hits other kids, or takes toys away from them it's up to the parent to correct their son. In that way from even an early age we are redeemed from a bad behavior to be taught in ways to make up good, responsible adults by the time we leave the parent's nest.”

You missed my counterpoint. My counterpoint is you are arrogant to decide that somebody else needs redemption, and you know what they should do. You are not a parent, and other people are not children. Who are you to try to redeem me? Who am I to try to redeem you? That is a type of Christian arrogance to feel other people need redemption, and you have the recipe.

Simply put. Who the hell are you to decide somebody else needs redemption and you are qualified to prescribe? Live and let live is a much better attitude. Christian redemption often means accepting their mumbojumbo. How about really being humble instead of just talking about it? How about not acting like a parent? How about not treating other people like children who need your ‘wisdom’?

The claim Trump is not a hater but the Democrats are, again highlights hate is a well used weapon.
Not always linked to truth.
As religion has shown up here let us not over look the hate used in most of them too.
From the murderous Crusades to today's terrorist, hate has been on display always, read the old testament.
Hate can be a brick wall we do not see over standing between us and a far better world

Belly
Collect photos of all the Windsors , open a bottle, play happy music and sing 'all you need is love'.

Dear Belly,

I was raised to believe that people everywhere are
well intentioned. That people were kind, generous, and
good.

As I grew - I found out that there was an apparent need
for some to hate another and to act out that hate by
humiliating and trying to destroy. I learned that some of
this behaviour came from a fear of what was different
to them and their "in-group." That they looked upon the
differences as a threat. Also some people can't function
without regularly bringing down others - it makes them
feel better. Perhaps this is a cultural thing.

The issue of hate is a complex one. As David F, pointed
out we can't change other people - but perhaps we should
look at changing ourselves. I guess what's important
after all is not what others do - its how we react to it.
I was bullied at school - but luckily I had a very wise
mum who taught me how to cope. That's why today - for me
life is very satisfying.

So Foxy are you going to be at the Demonstration against the moslims opinion of Gay people, or what?

To Belly. I hope I'm wrong but based on your latest comments, I'm thinking Individual had it right calling this conversation just trying to stir things up.

To David. Everyone needs redeeming. You might not like that but it's the truth. Some people just are actually appreciative when they are helped. Usually it's only those who realize they need it, that are appreciative. Something to think about.

Jayb,

I need more information on what you're talking
about.

Dear NNS,

You wrote, "Everyone needs redeeming. You might not like that but it's the truth. Some people just are actually appreciative when they are helped. Usually it's only those who realize they need it, that are appreciative. Something to think about."

You want people to appreciate your arrogance in thinking you can redeem others? One meaning of redeeming is "able to save people from sin, error, or evil."

You are going to save others from sin, error and evil? If you think that, you are not the least bit humble.

Some Christians are humble, do not sit in judgment on other people and do not decide for others whether they need redemption. There are verses in the New Testament addressing that point.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Not only do some Christians avoid making judgments, but they are aware that one cannot neatly divide the world into good and bad people. Such a Christian was Solzhenitsyn who wrote:

“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

Look to yourself and your own arrogance before you decide that you are going to redeem others.

Not-Now-Soon please explain, we agree on much, in fact I believe in Karma.
But why would I start a thread to stirr things up.
Why too would I not say what I think in any thread.
Can we talk about hate without highlighting what we see as cases of it in use.
Not a Christian, but fully understand a lot, not near every thing, written in any holly book, are wise and rules to live by.
However committed followers rarely do live by them.
So yes show me how hate ever delivered an out come we thought was good.
BUT NEVER blind us to the very real invention and use of hate by some, to win support.
Will we ever see a group push for an end to all hate, push for another way to resolve issues?
IF we do, someone like you may say they only bought the subject up to? stir things up!
extraordinary stuff not-now-soon

Hi Foxy, Is mise said in another Post that a Mass Protest by Radicals was going to happen soon. The Do Gooders/Lefties/Greenies/Maxist & Commos are going to demonstrate against the moslim stance on Gays. Apparently they are currently looking for a venue.

Is Mise: <the only problem is finding somewhere safe; somewhere where the Moslems can't see them. I heard that TV rights are being discussed but a stumbling block is that the organizers want all faces blurred out, naturally, the TV mob are objecting to this as full coverage would ensure retaliation and a rise in ratings.>

Further information coming maybe. So is this considered Hate by the Do-gooder/Lefty/Greenie/Marxist & Commo against the moslems & their stance against Gays or Hate by the Moslems against the Gays per se?

David.

Mathew 18:15

“If another believer sins against you, go privately and point out the offense. If the other person listens and confesses it, you have won that person back."

The text goes further about resolving an issue of sin in another, but this first part sets the tone. You go talk to them for their benefit, to win them back. Redeem them. If your offended by the term redeem (you offend so easily), then consider it having each other's backs. If your offended even by that then grow a backbone. As of now you've basically said to not try to help another because it's 1) offensive to do so, 2) arrogant to try, and 3) unwelcome because they didn't give you permission to offer your kindness or help. Seriously? I hope if I ever am in need of anything I find someone who gives a damn. Unfortunately it sounds like that won't be you.

Yes you need redeeming. I need redeeming, everyone needs a bit of help in this crazy world, either because of their own doing or because their situation fell on them without their influencing it. This isn't dividing people up to who is good and who is evil. It doesn't even have to be on the scale of good and evil, but just looking after your brother and looking after your sister. While hoping they are doing the same for you.

Belly.

The tone towards both Trump and Christianity seemed like it was turning into just a conversation to complain about those two things instead of addressing hatred. Essentially it sounded like it's own version of hate to a group (or several) that is disagreed with. The cover is that the group hated are the ones doing the hating. I've seen this logic before. I don't agree with it usually. Thank you for clarifying that you weren't trying to stir anything up. Sometimes people use that kind of logic not because they believe it but because they want entertainment from the arguing that follows it. Again thank you for clarifying that was not your intent.

Dear NNS,

I will try to resist the urge to communicate further to you. I think we are so far about that even with the best of intentions we cannot help each other.

When someone said "it's a fine day" to Napoleon he replied"thank you".
NNS "redeem" usually refers to a sinner returning to the Lord. Would that be yourself - just checking.

Jayb,

I can't really comment about something that may or may
not take place by some unknown entity against another
unknown entity for an unclear reason.

Well I thought it was clear. A lot of the people who support Gays also Support moslims. Moslims Hate Gays. Will the people who support Gays & moslims demonstrate against Moslims who hate Gays. It's a bit of a dilemma for them isn't it?

Is Mise said that they are in negotiations about the Demonstration with the Media who want to show faces. Apparently they don't. Also they are looking for a venue to hold the Demonstration.

If & when they do hold the Demonstration, would you go? & which side would you be supporting? Which side would you support even if you didn't go? Or, would you sit this one out because you support peoples Right to be Gay & the moslims Right to support their Religious view on the Subject & hate Gays?

To Nick.

Redeeming someone from their sins and returning to God is one of the main points of redemption. I agree. However with a little study, I've found a few others. One is to redeem a slave, or to redeem a widow from a family member who died. If taken on that understanding, then God saving and redeeming Israel from slavery in Egypt is part of the concept of redeeming us. As is Jesus coming to rescue is from our sins and ourselves.

In this context my intent on focusing on redeeming another was to support that motivation instead of trying to right a wrong by getting even kind of outlook. If we have the type of focus to redeem and help, then hate won't be as strong an issue.

To David,

You probably did not intent this but your last post describes the notion I meant by letting the person go. Even to the point of having nothing to do with them. With so much talk on redeeming, this was ignored. In my opinion it's an important thing to consider and sometimes do. For me there are three reasons to do this, but for you, you can hopefully see the benefit of two of those reasons.

1) the help you offer is not wanted or isn't helping.
2) the help you think is right really isn't
3) letting go can be a trust thing too. Placing it in God's hands because there's nothing more you can do.

If you let someone go because they don't accept your help it might seem like giving up on them. Or if you let them go because they accept the safety and support you offer but use that to avoid the consequences of their actions. (Like not looking for a job or continuing in a drug addiction, sometimes your help just protects people from the consequences that would turn them around). Then it might seem like your abounding them. But if your help isn't wanted or isn't helping, forcing that help or continuing on with it has historically been a cause of more harm.

Conversely, often we want to help another but don't understand the situation. If after trying to help and failing, letting them go their own way might be better because you were in the wrong in their need or your solution.

Lastly (though you won't agree with this) letting a person go can be a part of trusting them to God. Let them face the world on their own and keep them in your prayers. It's not in your hands any more, and really it never fully is.

....

That said David, I would be grateful if you stopped trying to reply to my comments. From the very beginning it has been with a harsh and spiteful attitude you've addressed me with, and even when the topic wasn't about Christianity and my comments stayed on topic you've found an issue to drag my faith out and try to drag it through the mud. If that stops, for however long it does, I would be glad about that.

Once this bright eyed then youth thought the world would be fine.
That we humans, having won ww 2 had it it hand
A far different America, again, was rebuilding Europe as it did post ww1.
Colombo plan was in place,Marshall plan too
Young Americans spreading out over the world in hands on aid.
Today,s youth would do well to revisit those day by spending a couple of weeks goggling them.
We have traveled far mostly down, hate existed, always,see Nazi Germany, but follow the thought humans should be perfect, right back to America, the thought we should engineer humans was born there.
HATE? it blinds us consumes us we see it as an answer, even a reason to murder,those we hate the most, the others.
yes I will highlight till I die that hate blind deliberate hate is a tool for? look around you, try to consider the needless deaths of those starving all over the world,wars famine , some think it is just natural selection, some see it as just hate at work.

One sure way of perpetuating trouble is to keep tearing at the scab. One sure way of making decency perpetual would be to enlighten young people that the privileges of life are not based on selfishness, greed, drugs & indiscipline, jealousy & envy.
How can we expect young people to be decent when all they have for role models is the majority of adults among us ?
Get mature & decent teachers, weed out the corrupt officers in bureaucracy i.e. do a Trump here in this Nation. Of course the Left will fight tooth & nail but at least give it a go.

Hi Belly, I haven't been following your thread that closely. Just on HATE.

Hate is such a strong and emotive term, so negative when applied to others that I feel it serves no worth while purpose as an emotion within the human sprite. As a young bloke I held a high degree of anger towards those I perceived as doing wrong, which manifested as hate towards some people, both at a personal level, some family members, and some unknown personally to me within the broader community, politicians, bosses etc.

I have come to realise you can hate what people do, but not to hate the individual. My wife is a perfect example of a non-hater, she has replaced the negative hate emotion, if she ever had it, with positive feelings of love, compassion and concern for others. In that way she is a better person within herself, and lives a more fruitful life.

Belly
Are you saying that US social engineering is an ideal? It was largely to stop communism as in bombing Vietnam more than US did in Europe WWII.

At school cadets we were trained in bayonet practice , and told to imagine Indonesian boys were our target. It was a church school.

That's okay NNN, after all they are not Christians, thinking of bayoneting Christians, would be considered an impure thought at my Catholic school, along with dreams of that cute little blondie from the sixth grade, naked, while jerken' the gherkin. Definitely worth three 'Hail Marys' and a 'Glory Be to the Father' at this weeks Confessional! The blondie, not the bayoneting.

Dear NNS,

You keep on. You see me as harsh and spiteful. You don't look at yourself. You repeat the nonsense of your faith as though I have dragged it in the mud. Intolerance, war, persecution and opposition to compassion for pregnant women and homosexuals are the hallmarks of your narrow faith. It has put itself in the mud of ignorance and hate.

Jayb,

If and when they do hold that demonstration - I shall let
you know whether I will go and which side (if any) I
will support.

we know david f your god denying faith encourages the butchering of babies. That is compassion in your eyes. And of course it was your godless faith that Stalin practiced. Champion of compassion. You show wisdom does not always come with age.

runner,

Didn't Christ tell you "Do Not Judge?"

It's time that you as a self-proclaimed
Christian took that command more seriously.

NNS
' One is to redeem a slave, or to redeem a widow from a family member who died.'
That is to restore a person to a lawful right. The suspicion lingers that you may be the Lord gathering the derelict souls to yourself. Does your gift of salvation begin at OLO?

Dear runner,

Good to hear from you.

Stalin’s godless faith of Marxism shares much with the godly faith of Christianity. Both faiths are nonsense. I am concerned with the suffering both faiths have caused. I wrote “Why So Many Corpses: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=12693 which concerned itself with the suffering and death that Marxism has caused.

Like Christianity which sees the Garden of Eden in man’s past, Marxism sees an idyllic past in primitive communism in an economy of scarcity. Like Christianity which sees the current world as characterised by a struggle between the Sacred and Profane, Marxism sees the current world as characterised by class struggle. Like Christianity which sees a glorious future in the return of Jesus and the millennium, Marxism sees a glorious future in advanced communism in an economy of plenty.

I am not a man of faith. I think both Marxism and Christianity are harmful nonsense and hope humankind will replace faith by reason and compassion.

Christianity is not hate free read the old testament.
Read the rubbish yesterdays murderer of those Jews had written on his van, inferring God supported his hate.
Hate is used by almost every murderer as a reason to kill
in the end after the event that reason looks feeble
Hate exists in every thing we are involved in.
that first testament has it and it is extreme, just as well most followers reject that part of that book

Dear Belly,

God condemning his beloved son to torture and death in the New Testament isn't great either. The New Testament makes Jesus out to be such a good guy that his mother doesn't even have sex with his father to produce him. That makes sex out to be something dirty that the mothers of good guys don't do. It denigrates women, and fear and burning of witches follows. The Bible has a lot of bad stuff in it.

Jesus claiming that only through him can on enter the Kingdom of Heaven has led to the persecution, suffering and death of people who do not accept Christian mumbojumbo.

One can find both good and bad in the Bible. There is a lot about love and hate in both parts. It can be picked apart to find the good parts, but as a whole the Bible promotes neither reason nor compassion. It promotes superstitious belief and ignorance. God forbids Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and then condemns them for doing so. That is totally unreasonable. Before eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil how were they supposed to know they were doing wrong by eating it. That is the lesson of God found in the Bible. Obey without question. Don't think. Don't ask questions. The Bible is a work stultifying to the active human mind.

1)" God forbids Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit ..2) how were they supposed to know they were doing wrong ."
go to 1).
or 3) ask questions.

'God condemning his beloved son to torture and death in the New Testament isn't great either. '

if you or I were not so wicked David f it would be not necessary. The fact that you condone the murder of the unborn just shows how corrupt your nature is let alone what is hidden.

Dear runner,

Maybe you are wicked. I hope not. It seems to me you are a good guy working with the law enforcement community to keep the cons under control.

I try not to be a bad guy. I think a woman has a right to have an abortion. You apparently would put the rights of a fetus first. I don't condemn you for your views, but you condemn me for mine. In civil society we shouldn't condemn people for having different views. We try to live together. One of the problems with some religions is that they condemn people for having different views. You want to believe in the Christian nonsense. That is your right. However, I am free not to conform to your beliefs and not to have any religion.

Islam is the official religion in 27 countries in Asia and sub-Saharan Africa as well North Africa and the Middle East.
Thirteen countries – including nine in Europe – are officially Christian, two (Bhutan and Cambodia) have Buddhism as their state religion, and one (Israel) is officially a Jewish state. No country has Hinduism as its state religion.

I am happy to live in a country which has no official religion. I wish Australia would get rid of chaplains in the public schools and stop funding religious schools. I would not close religious schools but don't think government should fund them.

Meanwhile we will live together. I don't think you're a bad guy because you believe in nonsense. In a free country that is your right.

Hiding behind God any God and targeting others is a symptom of failure.
Hate is a symptom of human failure
If only both sides could sit down and try to resolve issues.
Just think, if the UN was really about united nations, no one had the power to stall any effort to resolve issues
that they could sit until answers to problems rather than war was the out come

Your post David f sums up the difference in our world views. You say 'U try not to be bad guy' and I believe you. You are probably an outstansing citizen for all I know. You though, obviously think that through 'rational' thought you can discern good and evil. In some cultures like Maori and some of our own Indigeneous culture cannibalism was considered ok or moral. You replace what we consider past immoral behaviour whether by religous people or non religous people with 'rationale'. You do however have to be totally blind not to see the perfect moral character of Jesus Christ. All others fail miserably especially the godless socialist. Sad to say but man in his arrogance and rational has absolutely no hope of matching the morality, wisdom or power of Jesus Christ. You are living a very vain dream and rejecting eternal life as you will certainly die in your sins unless you turn to the Only One who can forgive them.

//Everyone needs redeeming.//

No they don't. People need things like oxygen, water, food, shelter... stuff like that. Nobody has ever died of a redemption deficiency. Not once, in all of human history.

Although in the torture chambers of the Inquistion, on the pyres and gallows of witch-hunters, during various pogroms and crusades, there have been plenty deaths whose cause can be directly attributed to 'over-zealous redemption'.

And yes, I know you guys have mostly stopped doing that sort of thing these days, but I did read a particularly horrific article the other day in which a victim of gay 'conversion therapy' spoke about the abuse she suffered, including having electric shocks applied to her genitalia, for the heinous sin of being attracted to other women. So apparently you guys aren't completely done with cruel & unusual punishment when it comes to redeeming people.

God save us from Christian redemption.

//if you or I were not so wicked//

Nah, you can't possibly be wicked, runner. For does not Jesus teach us that it is only he that is without sin that may throw stones, which you spend most of your time doing. Therefore, you must be without sin. QED.

Dear runner,

I am not blind. The story of Jesus was written in the New Testament years after his death. I have no reason to believe it is accurate. However in the account of his life in that document it shows him being both foolish and intolerant.

Mark 11:12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.

I think both you and I would have better sense than to curse a tree for not bearing fruit out of season.

In another part of the New Testament it quotes Jesus:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The above shows great intolerance. It doesn’t matter how good a life you have lived. It doesn’t matter how decent you are. You only come to the father through his doorkeeper, Jesus.

I think both you and I are more tolerant than Jesus.

A man who could be both stupid and intolerant is not perfect, and the New Testament shows him as stupid and intolerant.

Admittedly it is sometimes difficult to tell the difference between good and evil. People in the southern United States fought a great war in the belief that slavery was good because it was accepted in the Bible. The Bible was a justification for accepting what most think of as evil. I can be wrong in choosing between good and evil, but I trust my reason more than your superstition.

continued

'Although in the torture chambers of the Inquistion, on the pyres and gallows of witch-hunters, during various pogroms and crusades, there have been plenty deaths whose cause can be directly attributed to 'over-zealous redemption'. '

yeah kinda like abortion today Toni. At least you acknowledge we have a moral conscience however warped it might be to justify such barbarity.

Continued

Rejecting eternal life? Let’s not kid ourselves. You will die. I will die. Whether we want to or not or whether we believe we will live on, death is our ultimate end. In time neither of us will exist. That is the fate of all organisms except certain microorganisms which will split producing two organisms. People are afraid of death so they choose to believe nonsense for which there is no evidence. There is no evidence for life after death.

As for the godless whether or not one believes in a god there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of a god.

"Nobody has ever died of a redemption deficiency".
Suicide believers ( peace be upon them, amen) aren't redeeming the target customers who are booked into hell. Sending them off with a bang will redeem the true bomber but only if he dies . Jail time is not martyrdom and is a waste of explosive and damages hearing. But it's OK if it stops the alcohol even a small extent , the pilgrim may be one small step above hell , one great leap for a kind man.

Of course , Zeus and Jupiter zapped them with thunderbolts. Bunjil in Victoria also used a thunderbolt , a "dyte" star , which is the same as Indonesian dyuta , Sanskrit dyuti , dios , Zeus.

Whoa! Nick. That must be 8l00dy good stuff. Care to share it around, Maaaate

"The name "Warrandyte" Melbourne could be translated as "that which is thrown". The Wurundji dreamtime : Bunjil, the great eagle, creator of the world, had once gazed down upon his people from the Star Altair and seen their wrongdoing.. with a mighty crash of thunder, he hurled down a star to destroy them. Where the star struck was created the gorge we see today. Bunjil's people called it Warrandyte, the place where Bunjil had hurled down the Star to punish his people." dyte : star.
Source: Warrandyte Diary

Alluvial gold, discovered in the gullies in July 1851, was almost depleted by the end of that year.Probably the nuggets had been seen as remains of the star.

To Belly.

The conversation has gone to some lengths to point out people who hate, their actions, or to defend some of those people (like Trump) against the accusations.

But here is a question for you. What do you think can be done about it? I've given my thoughts on what we can all do, and it's been debated without really offering an alternate solution. Do you have thoughts on an alternate solution?

Would it be some kind of government social program endorsed and paid by tax payers? Or would it be something regularly presented on TV networks to remind people to not hate? Or something bigger. Something that has actual authority in the international community that isn't prone to corruption. (You mentioned the UN before).

Think about it if you will. And if it's possible consider both whether it's a practical solution and if it has something to prevent worse conditions if a minipulative leader takes the reigns.

To Nick.

You've made a fair point. I'm not God, nor Jesus. They are the ones who redeem and save. However I think we should do our part. To redeem people to God, and to redeem people from their suffering. After all at the end of 3 of the gospels (Mathew, Mark, and Luke), there is a last command from Jesus to the disciples to go and spread the good news of the Kingdom of Heaven throughout the world. That great commission sounds like for us to do our part in redeeming the world so that people can know to come to God.

In Mathew 25:31-46, Jesus tells of what will happen when He returns. He'll gather the nation's and divide the people into 2 groups. Those who fed the hungry and thirsty, showed hospitality to the stranger, gave clothing to the naked, and visited those sick and in prison. The other group were those who did none of these things. The lesson in this is that Jesus welcomed those who did these things into the Kingdom of Heaven, and those that didn't see after the needs of those around them were cast off into the darkness. With this in mind it sounds like we should try to redeem the world from the suffering and hardships that occurs in people's lives. Help them and offer what we can when we have the opportunity.

With this in mind, I'm not the one who saves and redeems others. That's God. However we should all do our part to help redeem the world. Whenever, wherever we have the opportunity . The list of needs of the world is larger then this one. Elsewhere there are also verses to say comfort those who morn, be generous to those in poverty, even to give when asked without concern for ourselves, as well as to look after the widow, the orphan, and the oppressed. So with any opportunity to help the world we should take it. Even when someone does wrong, try to correct them for their own benifit, to redeem them even in that situation.

Hate is an emotion as is love, hunger, thirst and desire. We satisfy love by being close to our love object. We satisfy hunger, thirst and desire by eating, drinking and attaining what we desire, but hate is different. There is no easy way to satisfy it. It is within us, and the object of our hate may not be the cause of our hate. Our hate may be the result of our condition in this world. It may be the expression of our inadequacy, our poverty, our loneliness or many other causes we can do little or nothing about. We seek scapegoats on whom to blame our problems. The scapegoats may have nothing to do with our problems, but we can hate the scapegoat. A classic way for rulers to deal with a restless population is to direct their attention to a scapegoat. Muslims, Jews and any people with race, religion, politics and nationality different from us will do as a scapegoat. We can be manipulated to forget our problems by hating a scapegoat. We may not even need to be directed to a scapegoat. Our society may already have selected scapegoats for us. Our religion may do it for us. We may hate those of a different religion or none. We may think our religion is so obviously true that those who don’t accept our religion are evil and denying the truth. Religion can be a great source for hate.

How do we deal with the hate directed at a scapegoat? We can realize the reasons for our dissatisfaction with the world. We can learn to separate our problems into those we can do something about and those we can do nothing about. We can learn to accept those problems we can do nothing about and simply live with them. We can accept ourselves and our place in the world. We can join with other people and deal with problems we can do something about.

Examine yourself. If you hate a scapegoat dismiss that hate and deal with what is really bothering you.

Tuesday, 30 October 2018 1:28:28 AM
You have no need for sleep?

//'Although in the torture chambers of the Inquistion, on the pyres and gallows of witch-hunters, during various pogroms and crusades, there have been plenty deaths whose cause can be directly attributed to 'over-zealous redemption'.//

//At least you acknowledge we have a moral conscience//

Jesus, runner, do you really think that burning little old ladies and torturing Jews to death is indicative of a moral conscience? Or are you just seeking attention by trying to shock people?

NNN What is sleep? some criticism of my views in posting this thread, withdrawn but still stalling me.
Has made my last few posts bland.
Highlighting hate, reasons and who hates, how we can stop it, was always going to be part of my thoughts here.
So here go,s Islam, it has haters, even dating back to the Crusades!
Some of us hate that faith, and all its people, blindly.
If it was your task, you, to stop the hate in our country how would you do it?
First dig a hole in the back yard make it deep and bury any thought of POLITICAL CORRECTNESS being involved, we are seeking a resolution not more pain.
I would ask that western clothing be warn at all times, no Burka, ever in this country.
And re-enforce laws about hate crimes in relation to both sides belief.
Perhaps talk openly about what would happen to westerners in the country they came from if we dressed to disturb.
Is hate ever changing any thing for the better.
Is it worth while for both sides to give ground rather than hate?

There is an avenue for hate when believers identify themselves with the god and the god with the nation. The heads of Russia , Britain and Vatican have holy politics with that extra power from above( Iran Israel Tibet Thailand Cambodia etc). Suicide bombers are holy judges. Hitler had Nazi Christmas. The UN flag has olive branches from Biblical flood and the dove as does US eagle with godly $ notes In god we trust.

Belly wrote:

"I would ask that western clothing be warn at all times, no Burka, ever in this country."

Some nuns wear garments different from that of other women. Some Hassidic Jews wear garments appropriate in Poland several centuries ago with large cylindrical hats. Would your ban on non-western clothing apply to them?

NNS Wrote:

"However I think we should do our part. To redeem people to God, and to redeem people from their suffering. After all at the end of 3 of the gospels (Mathew, Mark, and Luke), there is a last command from Jesus to the disciples to go and spread the good news of the Kingdom of Heaven throughout the world. That great commission sounds like for us to do our part in redeeming the world so that people can know to come to God."

The above is the kneejerk suggestion of the Fundamentalist. Send out the missionaries! Get everybody to believe in the same superstition they believe. For many people the good news of Christianity was very bad news such as the millions of native people who were enslaved and murdered, the Jews who were massacred and the Christians of a different brand of Christianity who were also slaughtered. . Bringing the Bible to the land often meant native people having the Bible and Christians having the land. There was a time when almost all Europe was Christian and those wise enough to question kept quiet or got sent to the torture chambers of the Inquisition or burnt at the stake. That time was the Dark Ages. Do we want those times back?

Democratic countries have separation of state and religion to a greater or lesser degree. Toni Lavis and nicknamenick have pointed out the toxic consequences of the union of state and religion..

We generally follow the words of Thomas Jefferson: “But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

Let us be as wise as Jefferson

'Hate is an emotion as is love, hunger, thirst and desire'

actually according to the bible David f love and hate are actions not simply emotions. That is why the tantrum throwing left show they are very good at hate, good at virtue signalling and often poor at love.

praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.
Southern Baptist Convention > On The Liberation Of Iraq
www.sbc.net › Resolutions › Resolutions Search
WHEREAS, The Iraqi people have suffered for decades under the ... was a warranted action based upon historic principles of just war; now, therefore, be it ... 2003, affirm President George W. Bush, the United States Congress, and our armed

Dear runner,

The Bible is not reliable on many subjects. It is not a scientific textbook, a reliable history book or a guide for morality. It is not a guide for morality because it accepts slavery and capital punishment for violation of the sabbath. Society has moved on since biblical times, and we no longer accept slavery nor capital punishment for violating the sabbath. The Bible is not a good guide for the nature of hate or love. The Bible tells us:

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.

I have just been for a walk in the park with my wife. We saw the flowering bougainvillea, a duck, ibises and other plants and animals. I love the world and the life that is part of it. I am glad to still feel the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life. The above quotation from Bible is sickening. One can find other parts of the Bible that are sickening. There is a lot of harmful nonsense inn the Bible. It is a guide neither for hate or love. Bible bashers will explain the words above to mean something else than what it says. However, I will continue to love the world as much as I can.

David f again we throw sand in the eyes to hide reality
Those nuns are not offensive to most of us.
Maybe the victims of that Church but other than walking in an Islamic street, can I see any one being offended.
No was we should know, God, every one of them, is a fantasy.
We learn about evolution at school.
We often learn about hate, in places of worship, Islam is not near the only faith, to have some very questionable people serving it.
PC that ugly beast, used by minority to silence the rest,is no answer it is the problem.
Hate should be secondary to Waring sides finding peace

Dear Belly,

Laws are meant to be observed by everyone. If you insist that everyone wear western clothing you can't restrict it to mean only Muslims must wear western clothing. In our society we can't make laws that apply only to a particular group. Such a law would not be upheld in our courts.

For religious freedom and keep the state out of religion , French Law dictates religious dress: -" As of 11 April 2011, it is illegal to wear a face-covering veil or other masks in French public spaces. The law imposes a fine of up to €150, and/or participation in citizenship education, for those who violate the law."

This is Putin's democracy : he chooses, people don't . Weird in France, though.

David f please excuse me but it is my opinion your words are pure politically correct.
I offered a chance to other than hate.
And if in any way we tried to place separation in place we would rightly be called racist
I stand firmly behind my view
IF our task was finding another way for the American south, white v black,both sides would need to give ground PC if used to stop negotiations for better is as I see it, not worth considering.

//I would ask that western clothing be warn at all times//

That should be fine... I don't know if you've looked at a map of the world lately, but much of the 'East' is actually to the west of east coast Australia. Unfortunately NZ is to the east of Eden, and I do like what they do with possums. On the upside, America is also an Eastern country, and it'd be great if we stopped imitating their fashions.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-maps/world-map-with-latitude-and-longitude.html

As hard as this may be to accept for many but there are most likely millions if not hundreds of millions more decent people among the Muslims than the Christians.
The only reason Islamisation is going ahead in leaps & bounds is because of the stupidity of educated Christians.

PC that ugly beast,
Belly,
Yep, it's the lovechild of the academic & all other Left.

West Africa isn't east of Mecca but Australia's Muslims look west. Western clothing is more northern . President Sarkozy has said that the defining duty of French citizenship is to engage with one’s fellow citizens, which is to say, to engage face to face in the public sphere without burqa. Women need to get things off their chests and bare their souls , parliament they say , something close to Brigitte Macron's theatrical heart.

Constantly find reason to grin at the ageing key board warriors use of the phantom left.
I from the left of this government and proud of it, inserted the thought PC is anti free speech and in the end rubbish
Then cop the left junk as a reply.
Humor is good for us, keep it up.
Look again my view, a concession to our culture, *ending the wearing of burka and Arab dress* is? well not sure what.
How many do not think the burka is men controlling women?
Do some share my view SOME wear it to express a separation?
Even to insult?
Fair enough then drag out the verbal cross and nail me to it
Will fight till the death to never except every Muslim is a concern, but never be mad enough to claim none are
both sides must contribute to any thing that try,s to stop blind hate

Do you think that dress has no social meaning? Green shaved tongue-ring women in boots, blue shirt white pants with broad hat, wigged judge, clergy , footie fan in team colour? If you wore burqa I'd think it could work keeping flies off, same as your pants.

Blind hate is akin to to blind loyalty !

phantom Left ?
Belly,
There's no phantom-it's real & the evidence of the damage is there for all to see.

indy show them to me, are they the reds under the bed or simply a weapon used to cover up a rage filled right that wants to destroy the place

Hate, a truly dreadful thing, but in post after post some used it, not trying to understand we should find ways to kill it not give it air

understand we should find ways to kill it not give it air..
( rips burqa off customer , stamps on it throws gas on it , fires automatic self-defense hand-gun and burns the suspect clothing for Uncle Sam)

Haters come in all shapes and sizes, it takes an inability to think to hate so very much.
Why are contributors not putting ways to stop hate forward?

Belly
Please.
Wear a burqa to the supermarket singing God save the Queen and wave the rainbow gaily.

//Why are contributors not putting ways to stop hate forward?//

Sorry, my bad. Here's how you stop hate:

Kill everyone and let God sort it out. Right, next problem?

Sorry, Belly, I'm afraid hate is part of the human condition. And it always will be. A world without hate does seem like some pleasant hippy fantasy, until you realise that if you can't hate anything you will find yourself confined to a future where you can't help but be OK with reality TV or Morris dancing or clowns or any number of things that no sane should ever be OK with. And then it suddenly dawns on you that there are far more dreadful things than a world without hate.

Belly: or simply a weapon used to cover up a rage filled right that wants to destroy the place.

You are showing us your pet Hate belly. Right Wing People.

You have assumed that people who support the Right are all Nazi inclined. You, have stereotyped most of the Right. Very few Right supporting people are Nazi type people & they are disliked by Right Supporting people as well. I would say an 80%/20% split with only about 5% are Ultra-Right.

Unfortunately now-a-days with an 80%/20% split, it's the are hard core that are the 80%, with at least 20% of them, being Ultra-Left Radicals. Now," That's a Bad, Bad Thing." As the song goes. The 20% of the 80% Radicles are supported by the Reasonable Left. Does that tell you something?

It's a bit like the moslims. Only about 20% are Radicals but the other 80% willingly support them.

Right supporting people hard core that are the 80%, with at least 20% of them, being Ultra-Left Radicals. The 20% of the 80% Radicles are supported by the Reasonable Left. It's a bit like the moslims.
The reasonable left are with ultra-left right. Reasonable moslims are left with the ultra-radical reasonable moslims. Right moslims are reasonable not left with radical unreasonable right on the left.

Belly,
Those Reds you appear to dismiss so lightly are in our daily lives by way of the federal, state & household budgets in the red..
These are the outcomes of those Reds/Labor. I'd have thought as a deeply concerned union rep you'd do anything to make things better for the working class instead of taking it all so lightly.

Fact check: Increased deficit by LNP.
Mr Eslake said " 'parameter variations' (for which you can't validly hold the Coalition responsible) and policy decisions (which you can),".

Ms Masters said Senator Wong's analysis was legitimate but the main issue was how much of the deficit change was policy-related and how much was due to the economic cycle.

nicknamenick,
Which Govt produced the first & nucleus deficit since Costello ?

As far as I know there are no clinical case studies involving a lesion limited to the red nucleus.. A contralateral motor deficit would also result from a lesion of the rubrospinal neurons, whose axons innervate the contralateral spinal cord gray. Thus it is difficult to know just what particular motor deficit(s) are associated with damage to the ruber versus damage to the cerebellothalamic fibers.

To Belly.

An observation to consider. And tell me if you've seen it too.

In the heat of an argument, a fight remains unresolved but instead also brings in several other unresolved issues that were previously not said. In the heat of anger one person says, "oh yeah well, _________" and proceed to nitpick or fight over an unrelated issue in order to bring the other person down a notch.

As much as anger and hate are bad, and cloud our being resonable, the truth often comes out when a person is angry and blurts out something else they hate in the course of the fight.

With this in mind one aspect to resolve hate might actually be to listen to those who are doing the hate. Do't listen to defend yourself, or to fight back. But just listen to see what the root causes and reasons are in their anger.

A second approach to resolving anger and hate is to expose the people who are hating to those who they hate. With restrictions on the people to not be able to do any harm, the hope is that by being around a kind homosexual, Muslim, person of different race, or the other sex, (or anything else); that that exposure to a kind person will reduce the urge to hate.

It won't solve the underlying issues. Disagreement with homosexuality and an oversexed society; fear of Islamic fanatics and women's rights issues; a history between two races where rights and privileges are artificially handed over to one, or active and bitter fighting have occurred between the two; or honestly any other reason that has sparked hatred might sill be there, but exposure to a kind person of the group that is hated will do a lot of good to remove the hatred and cause people to look for other solution to the issues outside of the extremist solutions.

(Continued)

(Continued)

Last thought is on removing the burka and enforcing a dress code for Muslims. The potential good in it might be to change Muslim separation from western society and if so help reduce some of the hatred among them. The down side I think is that this action is likely to intensify hatred for forcing them to go against their religious and cultural practices. In order to force this will take a heavy hand and be part of a movement to strip their culture away from them. Much like many countries being colonized stripped the culture from the indigenous people there to have to conform to them.

That kind of act if done has to be done for the right reasons, and understand those reasons. It won't reduce hate, but will intensify it among the people it affects. What it can do though is remove a harmful culture from your environment by stripping it's cultural cues in our clothing. Reducing the population that stays in that population. This kind of action I think is good when trying to remove gang related influences or gang fights, by restricting in schools and work places clothing that shows an allegiance to a certain gang. Some schools in the US have actually banned wearing certain colors, because of the association with gangs. A decision that I think is worth while to strip the gang culture away and to protect the staff and students from gang fights.

Removing Islamic clothing I think will only intensify the hatred towards the west though. If you promote it be sure you know what you're getting into. Trying to remove Islamic oppression of women, or be a statement to remove Islam as a whole. It won't reduce hate. At lest not for the first generation that it affects. Possible you might help their kids, but that's because of an active push to remove that cultural element out from them. I'd advise a good amount of caution and thought before going this direction.

To David f.

Since you like to consider yourself as an educated person, I have some homework for you to look up. Reasurch current missionaries, and current missions. See if any of them (or the majority of them) are as you describe them. If they are not. Then understand my stance when you refer to missionaries. I consider it a compliment, one that I've done nothing to deserve. Mission trips are often the source of good will to others, active volunteering to help the community they are going to, or to help a specific hardship, which is the reason the church supported a missionary group to go there.

For me I've done none of these things, so if I am called a missionary, I will take it as a compliment, but won't believe I deserve it. To be a missionary in my opinion first requires you to pack everything up and move to a different land, or even a different place in your country.

If you see missionary movements as a horrible blight on the world, then do your homework to change my outlook on them. Not historical spin on missionaries, but current missionary causes and results.

As far as I've seen, missionaries are a good element to the world we live in.

indy, in another thread I told how I constantly question my own views.
A once punter I am willing to put my house on it you in my view never have never will.
It was put to you this government has doubled the deficit from what it was when they first took over.
Simple truth
Yes Rudd, took over just before the GFC no one saw coming.
Yes he gave us nine hundred bucks each, to spend and in doing it saved us from the pain other country's had.
Yep, some dead people got that gift, some living in Greece or such did too
Unfortunately some public servants not Rudd let us down.
You and your ilk individual are my greatest fear,
I can not live forever my fear is people like you, not owners of well balanced thought or understanding may one day elect a leader like Trump.

You and your ilk individual are my greatest fear,
Belly,
I know because you fear our exposure of the Left's incompetence & lack of grasp of reality will eventually open the gullible voters eyes. Mark my words, your ilk's corruption will be its undoing. Corruption & deceit will become unsustainable. Greed will take a lot longer.

Left's incompetence & lack of grasp of reality.
You can hate that which is only equalled by Trump's gifts to united US and LNP gifts to competent reality. You can if you love hating.

Dear NNS,

We differ so much. You addressed me in a post. You wrote: "If you see missionary movements as a horrible blight on the world, then do your homework to change my outlook on them. Not historical spin on missionaries, but current missionary causes and results."

Although I don't agree with your outlook, I accept that I will not change it. I don't think you are going to change my outlook. We can recognize that we both are human beings and try to live and let live. We can think differently even though we have the same facts. My homework is not to change your outlook. I don't have to get excited when you write something that I find objectionable. All I have to do is accept that you have different opinions. As long as you don't use violence and I have no reason to think you are violent I can leave you alone.

I think the basic idea behind being a missionary is wrong. If people believe differently from what you believe accept it. Leave them alone.

I try not to be a missionary for my ideas although I am not always consistent. I express them. We can discuss them, but other people don't have to accept them. To live together and have a good society, I think we have to learn to live with people who have different ideas from us and not be a missionary for our ideas.

I don't want to be a missionary.

NNS yes much of what you say is true,in fact I refuse to think humanity must do any thing as it always has
So if two sides sit down to get better out comes it is not racist to put wearing of western cloths on the table.
Pure blind hate is generated [some times as is the wish] by the burka on our streets
Too dressed in Arabic cloths by men seems to shout separatism.
And YES knowing WE DARE NOT dress in a way to offend in the country they originally came from strengthens my view.
Hate is never the right out come if it takes both sides retreating just a little then ok with me

To David f.

These are your words, are they not?

"Although I don't agree with your outlook, I accept that I will not change it. I don't think you are going to change my outlook. We can recognize that we both are human beings and try to live and let live."

If these are your words and your views then live by them. So far on any and every topic I have been part of, you have been so far from "live and let live," that you are the antithesis of your so called view. If you don't live by it, then you don't really believe it.

Now to address the lie. Do you hate missionaries because they share their faith? Is that a cause worthy to stand up against instead of live and let live?

Or is it because missionaries are a danger to the world? An active group of hate and oppression as you've repeatedly accused them to be. If that is the case, then by all means, don't live and let live. Instead for the sake of the world share a modern story of missionaries on gunboats. Coming to conquer, or otherwise be a people to fear. If it is a worthy danger then I agree, let us know about it. However I suspect when you say missionaries, what you mean is colonist. Those people regardless of faith have sought out to move in great numbers, and claim a piece of land for themselves or for the country they came from. They came with gunboats and are both how you live in Australia today with the association to European society and western culture. And colonists are a source of history of warring against natives to conquer their land and their people.

(Continued)

(Continued)

Or do you hate missionaries because you disagree with the message itself? This seems to be the truth of the matter, because in our discussions you've either tried to counter and silence any and every position I can stand on. Or on a more personal level you attempt to ridicule and call names. Try and silence by berating them. Looking back one consistent thing is that you have continually tried to silence Christian views and specifically silence me.

I do not know what I have done to you besides having a different outlook. But that is apparently enough to to not live and let live.

Here in regards to hate, I will testify. Instead of life and let live (which is an alright philosophy) I believe to reach out and help one another. Be part of each other's lives and share your own life with them. In that way you can treat others the way you want to be treated; and both you and the other person can hold each other accountable. Or put another way. As Iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another. By being exposed to other groups and being kind to them you reduce the hatred that group would have towards you, and the same is true to the other group's influence for you to not hate them.

(Continued)

(Continued)

Live and let live is good only as a partial philosophy. So to not try force another to your position. On a larger scale of behavior, a better position to incorporate is to "live together." Look after one another, help one another, even to care enough to correct each other if they do something to harm themselves or harm others. To do nothing when there is something to affect them or another, shows you really don't care. "Live and let live" is only good as a partial philosophy to not over dominate another person (one that you haven't lived by in OLO), but it should not be applied as a means to silence each other, because you don't want to live with them. Trying to silence is how you've treated me, and I assume many other Christians that hold strong to their beliefs.

Live by the words you said earlier, or if you can't, acknowledge that you can't and stop trying rationalize yourself as still keeping that position; as well as stop trying to force others to live and let live to a degree that you yourself will not abide by. Live and let live should not be a cop out when your views are challenged. If it is to be lived by then do it! Don't wait for me to do it for you, do it on your own. I will live as I see is right, and unless someone comes by to correct how it's wrong (when and if it is wrong) I will continue to live by those standards. As someone who has been wrong several times in life, I am grateful that there have been people to point out an error I was unaware of. So that I can grow to be a better person and mature into a better man. Ifuntil their words have merit then hopefully I can consider them. Even if they don't have merit, then at least they tried to help me by caring enough to say something.

To Belly.

I'm sorry, but I must not have been clear. I didn't mean that to fix hatred two sides come together to talk it out and compromise. If there is real hatred then sitting down and talking it out is already likely too far to reach. No what I meant is that when someone is angry with you, consider each word they say. They will say more that are our faults and our failures at that time then they will most other times. And if the complaints they make are justified, then to resolve the hatred is on us more then them. If the issues can't be resolved, then at least you can know where they are really coming from. And in time a solution might present itself to help the issue, or when things are cooled down you can explain yourself and help them see that there isn't a reason to stay angry.

Once hatred is confronted, and the issues that caused the hatred are at least partially addressed, then sitting at a table and talking it out hopefully will work.

(Continued)

(Continued)

For the left, the issue as I understand it is being conned and swindled. Being deceitful and having a bait and switch approach when coming to politics and causes to support. And to be over dominating. Basically saying that our views are right and you must listen to us, and your thoughts are thoughtless and uneducated. If the left listens to these complaints then perhaps there might be a place to resolve the issues.

For the right, the issues I understand it are about being focused on money, and with that the implication of only supporting the very rich and the greedy. With that in mind the right is given the accusation of being hard, hateful, and greedy. And unfortunately, this part feeds the reasoning that the left's views are better, one last part of the complaint against the right is to be essentially evil.

For the Muslim refugees, the main issues as I understand them come with the danger of terrorism; the worry of turning a western nation into a pit of crime, murder and rape; the unwillingness to accept their new home as it is, or to be part of it; and the differences of culture and how they treat women or other populations outside of themselves.

For the western societies refugees move to, I doubt I understand the issues completely. But from the little I have, here are my thoughts. They have run from their own homes, abandoned their countries and left to try for a better place to live. From this I'm sure they think they've given up too much already, and don't want to give up their culture and religion as well. It's also an unfortunate issue that the homes they run to, they often reject wholeheartedly and don't want to live as the country they move to lives. Which only adds to the issue mentioned before of the unwillingness to accept the homes they move to.

(Continued)

(Continued)

These are 4 groups that show hatred in their politics and in the smaller groups of extremists. Left leaning environmental terrorists, and a general unrest of protests (some turn violent), right leaning hate groups, Muslim hate groups and terrorists, and a country to open it's arms to you but have select groups hate you before even knowing you. All 4 of the groups have hatred and in turn have those in them turn to violence and extremists.

In my opinion the best answer to hatred is to confront where we've done wrong, repent (sorrow for what was done and seek to make it right), and turn from our sins (turn to not do the wrongs anymore). The second thing we can do, is to stop hatred within ourselves. To forgive those who wrong us when they apologize and try to right the wrong. Or if they don't do that and the wrong was bad enough. Let them go, and have little or nothing to do with them.

Hope that makes more sence.

nns your views are wide and deep some times hard to find agreement.
I think, maybe wrong , what you saw as hate of missionary is merely holding them to account
See they with the full on thought they and only they knew what was good for people brought a foreign culture, often with stick in hand, to destroy others culture.
I suspect many, right throughout history, never believed in the God that paid their wages
How else could the centurys old molestation of children take place.
I it irrational, in a thread about hate, to hate or dislike, some one who refuses to support a faith, any faith, in a world that increasingly questions the truth behind that faith.

Dear NNS,

You can't seem to let go. You seem compelled to carry on, to express your view and to point out my flaws. It apparently fulfills a need for you. You are now arguing with a person who is not arguing back.

It is not my business to convince you of anything. I said what I felt about your views. I see no point in continual argy-bargy.

To Belly.

I'm sorry if what I've said is hard to agree with or to act on. Several of the thoughts stem from observations and beliefs; as well as from my faith being challenged. Many times I realized that several of the challenges made against Christianity have no merit. The ones that do have merit though, I try to take into account, and realize the common faults and try not to fall into them. Those same type of lessons of being challenged and considering those challenges, are lessons I'm applying in my last responses to you, regarding the conversation of solving hatred. From your part of this discussion I think this is a serious issue to you, so I wanted to share any suggestions I had to offer. It's an important issue to me as well.

Regarding the missionaries.

The issues I have is that David's description of missionary is wrong, and that by David's description of missionary, he fits it more then I do. So when he says to live and let live, and he does nothing to act on his own words, then everything he says regarding missionaries is hypocritical and a double standard. Hypocrisy is a pet peeve of mine. It only fuels hatred from both the person who holds the double standard, as well as fuels anger to those who see see it's hypocrisy.

//by David's description of missionary, he fits it more then I do.//

Sure, you keep telling yourself that, buddy.

NNS May I again tell you I too was a Christian, for all the same reasons you tell me you are.
I truly honestly thought that was the only way to a better world.
I was wrong, long before the world found out about institutional rape of kids.
I saw a man of God send his mother in law on stage on crutches.
She walked of without them, had never ever needed them.
He went onto be a TV Evangelist, but long before kept a kid with a broken are for three days from medical help, praying for God to heal him.
He preached God forgives, but fell and his by then massive Church did not forgive him.
Ask Buddha who Jesus is,ask the God of any faith why the others exist
no I do not hate, but yes I am waiting for humanity to understand no one is coming to fix it we must do it our selves see you in another thread

To Belly. You don't have to be Christian to consider the points I made regarding hatred. From earlier in the conversation for methods to remove hatred from ourselves; to later in the conversation regarding that sometimes people's anger and hatred are there due to a valid reason, and addressing the cause (and if possible resolving it by not doing it anymore) are good attributes to removing hatred.

I even gave examples of hatred playing out stemmed from something they hated in another group. The groups identified were left and right ideologies, as well as migrant refugees and the people who want borders closed, or at least more closed. All 4 of the group's had a reason for dome of them to grow extreem in their ideology and comity some kind of act of hatred.

You don't have to be Christian to consider the points made, nor do you have to be Christian to see the merit behind them. That said, if I have a point to consider that has roots from a Christian understanding, I think there's good reason to mention that as the source. More and more people think faith and religion are obsolete. I disagree. You f there are merit to the points I made, then let God recieve the credit for that insight. If the points don't have merit, so be it, but at least in this conversation I think they do.

See you in a different conversation.

*correction to the last post*

"You f" was meant to say "if."

Not sure how the typo got in there.

yes read that and in fact yes the Christian message is a base we can all live by in fact do, yes let this thread rest enough hate exists in just about every one to keep us interested if not ashamed

A woman is pleading for advice . “A new neighbour has moved in last month … She seems to have a major issue with the way my garden looks (just paid me a visit at 7am on Sunday to inform me that she hasn’t slept properly since she had a party last night and her guests were apparently ‘aghast’),” the woman explained.

The woman explained her neighbour had bought the house just weeks before after paying “normal market value”. “Surely she made the decision with full awareness of what my garden looks like? ” she said. She explained the garden was full of fruit, vegies and sunflowers and that her three and five-year-old kids and two dogs loved it.

One comment said the woman should install a scarecrow in her garden that has been made to resemble the neighbour “as much as possible”.

Like that! sad truth is it happens every day
Humanity has no default position for intelligence

True story, neighbor borrowed this blokes lawn mower,, for 34 months
Used his fuel
No charge
Mower owner got sick
Borrower mowed his lawn, bill? $60!
Neighbors, who needs them.