Many have tried, while some have had an impact not one has jumped the hurdle of voters in numbers big enough to power a true third way.
DLP, Greens both born in Labors ranks.
PUP Democrats and a host of small large L Liberals born from Liberal ranks.
Nationals? they too by their nature policies and voters numbers seem more than unlikely to even gain the support needed.
Time will surely bring another force to the front.
At this time my bet is it will be a small l Liberal party.
One that with the right leadership, can occupy the middle ground, and do well.
Voters want a middle path, every Labor government elected post 1975 promised that path.
Promised maybe not delivered, the next great one may well set new paths for future ALP as a party, right now my bet is a middle of the road Liberal party will come in the next decade

Posted this because I think it will take place, maybe soon.
Labor almost split, well in truth did, at the birth of the DLP, Catholic right of that party.
DLP for a while held the power to keep Labor out of office, but never the power to rule in its own right.
It could not bring the center, you must bring the center to govern.
Greens, unlike the DLP right, took our refugees to the left, and too fails still as it always will, to bring the center.
Nationals, as folks my age will know, had much more power under its country party name, Black Jack John Mcquain even stood in the way, for a time, of Billy McMarn becoming PM .
Then and now Nationals never had any chance of bringing the center with them.
One Nation and the right splinters from Liberals, too can not grow, they picked the very right,an area only few voters want.
So who will be the third force?
A Labor left split will die before it hits the ground
Labor evolution is moving towards the center, it has from 1983 onwards, but may well be beaten by a small l Liberal party that may be fueled by the upcoming election loss next year.
When formed it would be hard to defeat,Australians in numbers will always look for middle of the road policies not the edges

Dear Belly,

There is every indication brought about by the
extremists in the Liberal Party, that the Party
may split. And the next government looks like
being a Labor government. This will give time for
the Liberals no matter which faction to try to
reform and win the subsequent election - which would
correspond with what you're predicting.

I believe that Malcolm Turnbull was trying to bring
about some balance in the Liberal Party but was
constantly blocked by the extremists - with the
trouble-maker - Mr Abbott in the lead.

However, observing the trend in voter's reactions
the Independent element in our Parliament is a growing
force that will eventually have to be considered. And
perhaps that's where the roots of a "Third Force" really
lie - once they get united, the right leadership, and
better organised. People are looking for better government
which today's parties are unable to provide.

cont'd ...

Dear Belly,

What is missing currently in politics is the capacity
to manage any undertaking with the best advice and
knowledge from a diverse range of talent of the best
and the brightest in this country - to reach viable,
practical, and economic solutions. The problem is that
decisions are made with political agendas in place,
and are not necessarily governed by talent - to solve the
problems of the day. That's why the Independents who don't
have ties to political party agendas - have a better opportunity
to solve problems - if they get elected to govern.

Foxy agree with everything you said in full, Labor will win the next election.
Maybe not by the landslide it looks to be now, but after a storm of fake news and near slander it will win clearly.
Both sides agree the voters usually get it right.
This weekend Wentworth will be telling, every weapon he can lay his hands on has been used by ScoMo, he as I predicted has bought support back to the government.
Should the swing against them be more than about 7 percent it will be the death knell of his government.
People do not want the extremes, if they did on the left the greens would be twice the current size.
One Nation would out poll the National party.
We live at a time shifting left or right will not be rewarded with government
Voters want stability

Dear Belly,

I'm going to risk it and predict that the Liberals
will not win in Wentworth. I have more faith in
the voters there and the PM's recent promises
especially the one about his being "open" to moving
the Australian embassy to Jerusalem will not go down
well. It's an obvious attempt at vote-getting without
actually saying they will do it - and I
think the voters will see through it. Also you're right,
the voters do want stability - however the Liberals
currently are not able to offer that. They're too
divided.

I believe Australia should have a Third Force. One that is not owned by Communist Unions & One that is not owned by Big Business & one that is definitely not Lefty/green.

If only the smaller Party's would band together. ON, KAP, Lambie, Xenophon & a few others. Keeping well away from the Far Right & those who join the new Party as Stooges of the other two, with aims of destroying any new Party from with-in, which has happened before.

Australia may then have a chance of digging it's self out of the hole the other two have dug for us.

Belly,
I hope there'll be such a third party because the two majors haven't shown any leadership or competence in years & that at huge expense to all of us who are yearning for a better future for this Nation.

I had hoped the Democrats would be a Third Force, and it was sad to see what they deteriorated into.

I had hoped the Greens would be a Third Force. But being to the left of Labor, it's unlikely they'l become one. Though if the Libs fail to reform themselves and Labor contest the ground the Libs currently hold, there's a chance the Greens could become the second force...

I had hoped the Bobcats would be a Third Force, but Fraser Anning convinced me otherwise.

I had hoped the X-Men would be a Third Force, but Nick Xenophon's campaigning in the SA election was so bad that his party disowned his name! Still the Centre Alliance seem our best hope so far.

As for the rest, JL's out, Family First have dissolved, and please don't ask me to explain why Pauline Hanson's unsuitable! The Cons and the DLP are too authoritarian, the Lib Dems too dogmatic, and the rest are either too narrowly focused or too unpopular to gain mass appeal.

Aiden, jayb, indy, it remains true maths rules politics.
Small parties remain small because they fail to bring the voters with them.
A coalition of such small party,s would, still fail to bring the center, thereby not win enough votes.
If they did we would already have a third force.
Even as a committed one party person, it is my view a third force would be good for this country.
What would be the point of me claiming my selection was perfect, or even always right?
But in defense of the two part system I will again draw fire, but it is my view good leadership, even the very best, can not please us all.
Howard before work choices, was good leadership, Hawke, Keating, for a while, and Kevin Rudd held the polls in their hands.
My belief is the third force today is most likely to be a Liberal center splinter.
Truth seems to me at least, the right has not got the support from voters it thinks it has
Interesting poll, yesterday some get it right few get it totally wrong, says Liberals will see Wentworth lost 45 to 55 two party preferred Phelps will it says win.
Stunning, if true such results tell of unhappiness from voters who are true conservatives

Belly: A coalition of such small party's would, still fail to bring the center.

A Coalition of Centrists is what I was alluding too. You have assumed that a Coalition of Small Part's would be all the extremists.

Actually, come to think about that. It would be a good Idea too, then there would be an extreme Left (Greens) & an Extreme Right. (Nazi's) That would keep them out of the Centrist 3rd. Party.

If only.

There are already plenty of 3rd parties to mop up the protest votes such as Katter's party, the greens, one nation, etc.

SM,

Yes there are - but they're growing in number - and
more are forming.

Indi: There are already plenty of 3rd parties to mop up the protest votes such as Katter's party, the greens, one nation, etc.

Well yes, but I've already said that. Katter, One Nation, Xenophon & Leyeshon, etc, should amalgamate to form a Centrist Party, ensuring Party's like the Lefty Greens & other extremist Right Wing Groups are excluded.

The Extremist can amalgamate & form their own Left or Right Extremist Party's.

Jayb in those very different partys you bring here great differences exist.
Too many in my view to ever let them live and work in one tent.
Labor will not produce a third way, it is moving toward the center voters but what other place could they occupy?
Democrats once had promise, Meg Lee was it? killed that party.
count the votes,see how people vote and why.
Small parties form, but have they truly got a future?
a center Liberal party would bring at least 20 percent with them.
And in short time many more.

There is no room between the left wing of the Libs and the right wing of the Labs to fit another so-called centrist party. No such thing will happen unless the Libs move to the right or the Labs move to the left to create such a space. But at the moment they are each respectively moving the other way.

A third force needs to find a large(ish) unrepresented group as a base and no such group currently exists. Whatismore it is unlikely to exist while economic and social times are stable or reasonably good.

But when 'interesting' times arrive, the political landscape will change - and I remain convinced the political picture will change as the economy unravels due to the devastation rising interest rates and declining Chinese demand will reek.

At that time a new force will have a chance. That force will be on the right of the Libs. My current guess is that we'll finally see a break-away group from the Liberal right combining with the Nats and the various right-of-centre minor parties to form a formidable alliance.

At that time Australia will become a true three party state where each election will require post-election coalition negotiations. And the instability of that will exacerbate the decline.

Australia 2050 will be way down the league tables of wealthy nations as compared to Australia 2000. Something to look forward to.

But hey, there's always an upside. Less boat-people will want to come here and emissions will be down because of lower activity and people not being able to afford to power their homes. So win-win due the failures of our current leadership class.

I am not that pessimistic, our country is not going down the drain.
Yes our big two need to move forward.
Both have quite a bit.
Any student of Australian politics will know Sir Robert Menzies, founder of today's Liberals, in fact invented and formed a center Liberal party, and won election soon after, record breaking number of times.
Look back at his policies, understand he, by his success drove the ALP to reform, it was unelectable until it did.
No wish to offend anyone, think about it yourselves, why on the right has one nation failed to hold its Queensland vote in the rest of the country?
Why have the Greens failed other than in the Senate, to grow?
Middle Australia, *clearly* wants the two who we say are the two party prefered.
Within both is room for many views and policies,Labor, following voters not leaving its base,will continue to evolve.
But give it some thought, a Liberal party retrieving some of the ground it left as it went further right, is favorite to become the third force by returning to its roots

Belly: Middle Australia, *clearly* wants the two who we say are the two party preferred.

I don't think it's that at all. It's just that people, like yourself, belly, would vote for the Party's they have always voted for even if it meant total destruction of the Australian way of life.

Usually my father voted xxxx & my grandfather voted for the same xxxx therefore I will always vote for xxxx. Hence the "Gotcha & Ego Government" we are cursed with now-a-days. It's the swinging voter that decides who will govern the Country.

jayb so wrong mate! voted against the NSW ALP the year we lost office over the rats [scum bags] in our ranks.
Do the maths leave you views out of it ask why if I am wrong, your tip has zero chance.
Reality shouts at me a center Liberal party would win this coming election and many more.

OK, so we are not going to talk about it.
However Jayb it is true major parties are shedding votes.
But telling me, voters are sheep, not just voters but most of them, vote zombie like because they are uniformed?
Truth is that insults them and wrongly praises our selves, for knowing more they we say they do.
Small parties in this country remain small because voters do not want them, in numbers that would make them bigger
It will not change until a third force ,with a base of followers big enough to kick start it emerges.
Australian politics has true reasons for concern.
It has become focused on infighting, internal policie wars, not what voters want.
BUT tomorrow we will see a very real Liberal small l party may become a reality.
Should/when that happens, it is my view they will prosper.

Belly: But telling me, voters are sheep, not just voters but most of them, vote zombie like because they are uniformed?

I did not say that. I would say that most voters are informed but vote for one of the two major Party's anyway, because that's what they & their forefathers have done or they are Religious (anti-communist)or Socialists (working man) Some people are uninformed (never read the papers, watch debates & such. They are just not interested in Politics& vote fore their fathers Party's. They'd rather watch TV: Rev heads/Wrestling/Days of our Lives, etc.

Jayb please do not be offended by my opinions, they are in no way aimed at offending any one.
In truth, less than a week ago, I started questioning my return here
In an effort to stop my reactions to? insulting uniformed attacks on me, I made up my mind to TRY truth without being bothered by ranters[not you].
It remains and will forever, my view while some voters staunchly vote only for a single party, always.
Swinging thinking voters in the end win elections.
Too that the coming Labor victory, will be won again, by the swinging thinking voters.
A rejection of Liberal policy, rather than endorsement of Labors.
Nothing can convince me at this time, other than a true Liberal party, separate from the very right [who by their actions stopped Turnbull, now ScoMo from being a true leader] will emerge and will govern, maybe fueled by the coming loss
Reasons? continued

Here I get controversial, but remember like you may be wrong.
Tomorrow many things will influence Liberal voters who will not vote Liberal.
In truth, [see the polling] many of them want action on climate change.
Just as many, on every side, want the boats stopped forever
BUT too want an end to offshore detention.
Labor, my party, should get its head out of the sand and join ScoMo in getting as many as is possible sent now, to NZ and any third country.
While commiting, to no more boats.
A centrist Liberals would do both.
In fact right now ScoMo is working on a post by election solution, aimed at keeping his center in the party tent.
In my view, no claim to it being the only one,the Liberal right has over estimated its support in its own party's voters

Belly: Jayb please do not be offended by my opinions,

I wasn't offended. In fact we said very much the same thing.

Belly: Too that the coming Labor victory, will be won again, by the swinging thinking voters.

Well I don't think they will. Shorten is too much of a gamble. Worse than Turnbull ever could be. The Unions have their hand up his shirt & he's happy to have their hands there. That's very dangerous for Australia. For a start there'd be so many boats the Border Force would be overwhelmed. As far as sending the detainees to NZ. What have they ever done to you. That would be doubly bad for Australia in 20 years. Having rogue Muslim Countries on either side of Australia, not good.

Belly: Liberal right has over estimated its support in its own party's voters

I don't think so. They are deserting, yes. I suppose that explains why people Pauline's Vote is getting bigger with every election & now that Parliament says it's official, that it's not OK to be White, I dammed sure her vote will go up again.

Hmmm.... let's see. My 104th. GGGGrand Father was Pinudjem I. High Priest of Amun. (African.) I safe. Ay.

Jaybe again I agree with SOME of what you say, believe me this thread is not about me pushing my known bias.
It is my true opinion of what is taking place and why.
Labor will win the election, Shorten will not win a prefered PM poll.
He had a brilliance I can no longer See, he may get it back as PM.
He will be much liked as PM.
UNIONS that would be the CFMEU, lets look at that, honestly so far left, they fund in part Greens and Labor, and keep Katter in parliament by funding him and seeing [until now] Labor preferences him.
Thugs and Mugs is my view of them BUT.
In a crude effort to kill them every right worker must have at work has been torn up in work choices and continues today, by conservatives our to using even known lies, get the CFMEU no way while waiting for nature to take its course will I buy the anti union stuff
continued

So yes two sides to that, my view that union harms the movement.
Today we may see Wentworth lost, if it is even close surely it tells us the war within the Liberals is real.
I truly honestly think here and in America the right, by its actions, re-powers the left, or in truth [please not that leftist stuff again] opposition.
Democrats took a dreadful team/party in to that election.
It defeated its self as much as Trump won.
Democrats will evolve, as they are even getting Republicans switching to them.
Labor split would only kill the party,well a left split would kill that new party, a right? no room exists in my view, but yes reforms will come for the existing ALP.
So we arrive at my view, true small l Liberals exist, are unhappy and if a new party based on that formed it would be very close to government in its first election and continue to both grow and take the place of its birth party

Hi Belly,

The only third party in Australia to obtain long term success, and eventually succeed to a position of government is The Australian Labor Party. Yes Belly your party was once the third force in Australian politics behind the oddly named Free Trade Party and Protectionist Party. They were basically two conservative parties that ruled at time when political power was confined in the hands of the elite minority of society, the well off, the landed gentry etc. Once progressive change took hold, and universal suffrage became the norm Labor took off. Australia was a radical leader in the non violent struggle that brought about the necessary polical and social changes that is the basis of Western democracy as we know it today.
The men who formulated the Constitution, were mostly members of the elite class and designed the voting system to heavily favour the big two, what we call the "two party preferred" outcome. They seen political stability as a must, and that could only be ensured if the vote was confined to a choice of two, and that is what we have today. This will work as long as the big two obtain more than 50% of the primary vote between them. Should their combine vote drop below 50% then chaos will reign. With the big two vote dropping from a historically high 95% in the early 1950's to around 60% today, chaos is on the improve.
The only niche party that has had long term success is the sudo conservative Country Party (Nationals), but they have been smart enough to make themselves needed by the big conservative, with their 5% vote which gets them a seat (several seats) at the table of government.
I didn't answer your question, but I will later, with a qualified yes.

Paul1405,
excuse my ignorance but does sudo mean ?

IMHO a third force is more likely to be more independents.

Far to many voters sick of the parties.

Problem all parties face is becoming irrelevant to real needs of voters, as more and more party activists run their parties, then take representative positions.

Real needs of voters often conflict with policy as decided by party activists working hard to remove conflicting issues.

Those closer to conflicting issues, see these contradictions as normal. Their goal is balancing worst results so more can feel at least partly satisfied.

This requires taking at times uncomfortable positions.

Party activists avoid uncomfortable positions.

Most voters start thinking politics from uncomfortable positions.

.

Fake or an imation indy ,again the small party,s bit.
Small party,s remain small because they have policies other do not want.
Any observation of say Italian politics post ww2 will highlight the very real truth about how chaotic small party,s make governing.
Paul my regards, knew but blinded to it by these days events.
YES both sides are wallowing in self interest, not voters, yes we want too much, and no party can deliver.
While both need reform, small l Liberal would be reform.
Wentworth, nothing we say here can change the result, but tonight for sure and certain, within the ranks of the Liberal party thoughts of a new way will not be rare
Anothe Howard or Hawke will come for both sides, and we will again see voters return to the big two
Smaller parties will never ever replace the two

Indy, a shorten version of the word pseudo as in "not genuine" conservatives, The nationals tend to change with the weather, becoming rampant socialists during floods, fires and famines. Reverting to arch conservatism during good times.
I seen on another thread where you wanted the dinosaur parties to outlaw the Greens. A bit to progressive for you are they?

Belly, the new parties that are doomed to failure are the personality based parties like the Palmer United Party, which is based on the "wise" thoughts of Big Clive, with his zero credibility. The other failures are the one issue parties like One Nation, big on the immigration issue, but totally lacking everywhere else. Ask the lovely Pauline something about tax, and she would look at you with the expression of a stunned mullet.

How does a newbie get established and become successful? Easy, mass appeal. Nah! a new party firstly needs money to kick off with, generous benefactors, and 500 interested bods signed up will get you up and running. Also a couple of high profile supporters will help. But it wont get you onto the government benches.
Government benches require mass appeal with well though out broad based policies. the stunned mullet approach to policy like the lovely Pauline wont cut it . A cohesive democratic party structure is a must. The grass roots membership have to be totally involved in policy and the internal decision making process, not the Big Clive one man band approach. The rest is easy and not worth worrying about

Paul it will upset some but the current third force is your Greens
No existing group can make it.
Tonight ScoMo gets hurt, he knows his right, while he is subservient to them, is harming the government.
No growth for the right, they however like Trumps America, try as they have for near two decades, to pick only right candidates for every seat.
ScoMo in the next two months, will show he understands some policies enforced by his right, are on the nose.
Watch a he closes offshore detention camps, hear the screams when it becomes clear he has, in his short time as leader, bought about 50 to 70 of them here.
Too he will try a change little but change to climate change, he has a plan to win the next election.
Screaming in his ear, from about eight thirty tonight, is the message his voters are willing to reject their party.
Funding?cash will flow if it takes a new Liberal party to remove mine from government.

Early indications are for a Kerryn Phelps win in Wentworth, with ALP and Green preferences she would be well over 50%, but things can turn. ScoMo may not be a happy, happy clapper in the morning.

Anyone with a true interest in small party,s should go to ABC online news site.
Read the actual results of every one of the candidates.
Do not ignore selective voting, had I lived in that electorate, it would have been my opinion Labor could never ever win it.
I as many may have, would have voted Phelps and Labor second.
Small party,s again proved they are not bringing other than a few dreamers with them.
An impact few will want to see is Morrison will, yes will, get as close as he can to resolving the offshore detention horror.
It has gone from being a weapon to a dead cat around his party's neck.
He too, at every opportunity, try to convince us he has the right under control.
Look for some ground giving on climate change, not true reform but the appearance of it
Dutton, the man who lost this seat, holds his own by about one percent, he must be looking for a job right now

Hi Belly,

It was understood from the beginning that only a strong independent could unseat the Liberals in Wentworth, I did point that out, it went as predicted. Others were approached but in the end it was Kerryn Phelps who got the job done. Don't be disappointed with the Labor/Green vote it was exactly what was wanted. Half her vote was from dissatisfied Liberals and non aligned, the rest from the Labor/Green camp, plus our preferences as required. The conservatives tried everything,throwing in "smokies" in the form of independents, trying to peel off votes from Kerryn. They called on the fringe dwellers of the lunatic right to throw in candidates to redirect votes back to them. It all failed, be happy son we have had a victory.

How ironic ScumMo now has to rely on the vote of that other lunatic, the fool from North Queensland, The Mad Katter, to keep him in power. This pathetic government has no mandate, no authority, they are clinging on to government like the rats on the side of a sinking ship. BRING ON A FEDERAL ELECTION, SOONER RATHER THAN LATER!

Malcolm Turnbull must be busy filling out tax forms to write off buying votes for Phelps.
Thank you voters of Wentworth for ensuring we go down the drain too.
Yes, the previous encumbend was of no benefit to the Nation but new one will be even less.
The LNP was in a mess thanks to Abbott but Morrison has half-drained the swamp already but the voters of Wentworth couldn't see that.
Morrison can still remain in office IF he drains Centrelink & the old age pension assets test so rural communities can have an economy resembling future.
Freeze Public Service salaries for the next three federal elections. Ease the fuel tax & vehicle registration. Only tax assets when they get sold or handed over, not while they're not in use to make money. If he does that he'll be PM for 12 years.

Of course that wouldn't be YOUR wish list to suit YOU would it Indy. Were you over the Moon to see the support for Kerryn Phelps?

“What we have done is tapped into a sentiment in the Australian people, to talk about the issues that are important to them, not the issues about survival for a particular political party,” the newly minted independent member for Wentworth said.

“This win tonight should signal a return of decency, integrity and humanity to the Australian government,” she promised to wild cheers.

“This win tonight should signal a return of decency, integrity and humanity to the Australian government,”
Paul1405,
Yeah, how many times have we all heard that before ? I'm not thinking of me as you're twisting the gist again, I'm thinkining of the nation which sadly, includes you too. You're one of the selfish ones on this forum, you're one of those who can't stand doing something & think for anyone who is not gay or otherwise opportunistic.
I'm for a National Service that actually would be positive for this Nation, being gay does not.

Indy,

Did you know that there are many gays in the military,
the Australian Defence Force and the police force.
Today people's beliefs are changing and no longer
automatically defer to traditional religious positions.
Fewer people live their lives in accordance with these
religious teachings. Of course that's why some
religious groups are struggling to adjust and feel
comfortable in their new - less influential place in
a changing world.

So what branch of the military are you in Indy? None most likely, happy to smugly sit back in the safety of your tree, and support state sanctioned violence in the form of militarism for others, calling it by the misnomer of national service,its neither national or service. It is a state granted licence to kill, the last time we had conscription in Australia young men were sent off to murder innocent men, women and children in Vietnam. Is that what you support?

conscription in Australia young men were sent off to murder innocent men, women and children in Vietnam
Paul1405,
I'll give you the chance to retract that.

Foxy,
i understand all that. But, can you explain how, with an increasing number of gays, this nation can sustain an economic population unless of course the dying hetereosexual australian component is eplaced by mported ? Is that what you'd like to see ?

Unfortunately the site has the grumpy old men of the right who even pillory LIBERALS for expressing the view they have been let down.
Another option exists, if true Liberals, by moving on policy,s the right will not support give birth to the small l Liberal party
They, the right, may leave to form another small, going no place, party.
One thing is true, indys rant on why his mob lost, is both totally wrong and enjoyable.

P1405: tapped into a sentiment in the Australian people, to talk about the issues that are important to them, not the issues about survival for a particular political party,”

Strange, you have condemned Pauline for exactly the same thing but I suppose it depends on a Greenie outlook. Ay.

P1405: a return of decency, integrity and humanity to the Australian government,”

In a haughty, Gay, Green manner though. Ay.

Foxy: Did you know that there are many gays in the military, the Australian Defence Force.

Yes, you are right. In the 60's most Gays were in the Officer Corp. Soldiers got kicked out quick smart if the bothered anyone.

Foxy: Fewer people live their lives in accordance with these religious teachings.

I disagree with you there Foxy. Just because a person is not Religious does not mean they don't live their lives in a decent, respectful manner. After all, our laws are based on Old Religious beliefs which are just common decency anyway, regardless as to what religion they belong too, or not. Except for some extreme ME religions.

P1405: national service, its neither national or service. It is a state granted license to kill, the last time we had conscription in Australia young men were sent off to murder innocent men, women and children in Vietnam.

Yes they had a ballot & not everyone was a National Service man. If a National Serviceman told his CO that he didn't want to go. He didn't. You didn't know that did you. & No, We weren't sent over to kill women & children we were actually sent to stop that. We didn't & when the North took over they had a great purge of the Civilian Population & killed almost as many as died by their hands during the War. As they did in the North after Dien Ben Phu. Almost 3 million Civilians massacred there I believe in 1954/60. Can you explain that please.

Belly: the small l Liberal party

By small l Liberal Party, do you mean a left Wing Liberal Party?

Please explain?

Belly,
For once, it's not about Right or Left, it's about right or wrong !

Indy, the official number of civilians killed during the Vietnam War stands at 2 million from North and South. If you want to be one of histories revisionists and claim Australia was there for some noble uplifting cause then go right ahead. I believe we were there as a flunky of the United States, who used Vietnam to fight a phoney proxy war against Communism in the interest of Capitalism.

If you are looking for some sort of apology from me you're not going to get it.

Jayb.,

When I stated that fewer people live their lives in
accordance with religious teachings - of course I
did not mean that those who didn't -
did not live decent lives.
Actually the opposite meaning was inferred - because
people's beliefs are changing and no longer
automatically defer to traditional religions or
religious positions. You don't need religion to be a
decent human being. There are many so called religious
people who as we know are anything but decent.

Anyway, what I was talking about was the fact that -

Australians are starting to adjust and change their
laws to try and
accommodate that variety of voices that exist today and
often what that means is religion is being taken more and
more out of the laws because they no longer represent the
majority.

A recent nationwide Fairfax Ispos poll found 74% of
Australians oppose laws allowing religious schools to
discriminate against students or teachers on the grounds of
sexuality, gender identity or relationship status.

Will our government listen to the electorate. Only time
will tell.

Jayb a student of politics would not need to ask however here it is
Right now there exists an internal war in the Liberal party.
From its inception it has had both the foundations Liberalism, not left in any way and a right faction.
And the right, growing, as they [the right] moved the party to the right, small l Liberals still exist, within the party.
It has been said, by that faction, see John Hewson ABC this morning.
It is his, and my opinion the voters rejected a party that moved away from them.
You mention one nation, cut the nonsense! Pauline's party has had more refugees than it has members, her chance of ever being other than a very small and lost bump in the road are zero.
So small l Liberals are not invaders, in fact they once had control of the party and will again.
They will be no push over once that takes place

Paul1405,
How many of those two million civilians were killed by australians & how many of those who came to Australia do you think want to go back ?

Belly, do you think that those on the Right of Politics are all extremists.

Or, do you think that those on the Right of Politics are mostly well meaning people who views & ideals are not aligned with the Lefts Socialists ideals.

I would call myself a Centrist, but you might call me a Rightist, because my ideals are not aligned towards Socialism.

I have been called a Baby killer only a couple of Posts back. That was by someone who has no idea what he was talking about. Yes I have read the Pamphlet called "Australian Atrocities in Vietnam." produced in 1966 Originally it was in a hard cover book in the Red & Black Bookshop in Elizabeth Street in Brisbane. One of the photos shows a White phosphorus grenade going off & three children under the Phosphorus streaks. Actually I'm in the original photo. I told the photographer to take the Photo. The Original doesn't have any children in it. In fact there were no people in the VC Village in the Bush. at that time. I have the original. The second Photo shows a brusk Sgt. screwing the arm of a screaming child. What it doesn't show is the child's other arm. The child was getting an Immunization Needle, hence the screaming. I was standing on the left just out of the photo when it was taken in Ong Hourn on the banks of the Song Dong Nai. The Village our Company looked after. I would consider myself a baby saver, knowing what I know from personal experience. Brainwashed Ar53#0l3.

Indy if its one its one too many. //how many of those who came to Australia do you think want to go back?//

And what relevance does that silly question have. Do you justify the killing of some, by letting others into your country. The Vietnamese who migrated to Australia were mostly enemy collaborators. People who had worked for the Yanks, or were traitors to the Vietnamese people through service to the illegitimate puppet government of South Vietnam. But if you have a revised history then believe it by all means.

Jayb you will find this hard to believe but I am a cenerist with a slight slant towards helping those who can not help themselves.
Not however those who will not help themselves.
Read, research Australian,s longest serving Prime Minister Sir Robert Menzies.
He formed today's Liberal party, by today's standards he looked a bit up himself, Churchill like he in fact was a statesman.
Here true Liberals will collect verbal rocks to throw at me.
Labor these days is much much closer to his Liberal party than the Liberals are.
This thread is not pro left, not about anti Liberal.
I want to highlight both sides are lost in intertnal contemplation.
Uninterested in voters, or even the basic platforms they exist for,
That room exists for a third force.
That I think that third force will be small l LIBERAL.
why? continued

Now, this morning and yesterday Liberals including past leaders came out and supported my view.
The party's right is leaving sections of its voters far behind.
[I see that pile of verbal rocks is getting higher] Liberal voters, in part want climate change action, want to close offshore detention centers but want the boats to never return
They some, never watch Sky/Fox, would choke before listening to our stable of unstable shock jocks.
Some Liberal voters are in fact Liberal in their out look.
You will see ScoMo TRY to appear to hear them, actions he has already taken, and will continue to, in relation to offshore detention will stun most.
He like Turnbull, must bend however to the owner of those news/propaganda channels and his own lost in space right, and never become the leader both could have been
The cat fight in a sugar bag fight for control of the government will continue

And what relevance does that silly question have. Do you justify the killing of some, by letting others into your country.
Paul1405,
Your replies reek of ignorance. Why do the people who came here establish the same way of life here as they had back in their old counntry ? How many more innocent would have perished had outside forces not intervened ? What makes you think the south Vietnamese would not have been wiped off the map if others had not jumped in ? Isn't the Israel Palestine saga sufficient evidence for you that some people simply can not live with each other & their conflicts inevitably involve outsiders to try & settle the situation ? What your arguments portray is that no matter how many humans are killed just so your ideology gets a go ?
The original inhabitants of Australia were constantly engaged in tribal warfare which, since the arrival of outsiders has literally stopped. Only people with your mentality keep tearing at the scab rather than let the wound heal. I think this is one of the most disgusting traits of anyone who claims to be a fellow human.

Indy, nice try at justification, but a total failure.

Why do the people who came here establish the same way of life here as they had back in their old counntry ?
Its the life they know, what they were brought up with etc etc, and as new generations are born they adapt to the local life style more and more.
BTW "counntry"; you in glass house should not throw stones.

How many more innocent would have perished had outside forces not intervened?
How many did the French kill, how many did the Americans and their lackeys kill, how many of each other did the Vietnamese kill. Millions.
Of course if the imperialists/colonialists had allowed self determination for the Vietnamese after WWII as promised, then maybe no one would have been killed.

What makes you think the south Vietnamese would not have been wiped off the map if others had not jumped in?

See above, No South Vietnamese would have died, there would have been no puppet US state of South Vietnam. Just the country of Vietnam, most certainly under the leadership of the nationalist/communists Ho Chi Minh.

Isn't the Israel Palestine saga sufficient evidence for you that some people simply can not live with each other & their conflicts inevitably involve outsiders to try & settle the situation?

The Arabs, and a remnant Jewish population lived harmoniously together for hundreds of years in Palestine (present day Israel) until the British thought it a good way of getting rid of pesky European Jews by handing Palestine over to them at the expense of the Arab population. It was bound to cause trouble.

The original inhabitants of Australia were constantly engaged in tribal warfare. Only if you say so.

Don't Look at this Page: People who had worked for the Yanks, or were traitors to the Vietnamese people through service to the illegitimate puppet government of South Vietnam. But if you have a revised history then believe it by all means.

<Rubbish. They are free to leave. Rich parasites aren`t interested in an egalitarian society>

Gotcha P1405. Love your Communist Propaganda Website. It shows me exactly where you are coming from. It's a pity you don't give out your email address. You would have found "My think Tank Ideas" very interesting.

Jayb your thought not mine, my intention was always to highlight a view that a third force while we have not seen it is going to come.
Labor left split can not bring enough voters to float.
Labor is near the center now, so a right split to would sink.
The very right, that part in the Liberal party not the very extreme smaller than small parties, have enemies within that party.
So what are right policies? as little action on climate change as is possible.
ScoMo tells us future retirees must not rely on pensions
Coal v renewables the right wants coal
offshore detention
What in my view are small l Liberals views? Meet the Paris acord
Plan for more renewables
Stop the boats forever but end offshore detention.
Wealthfare, not mentioned till now, it is my view both Labor and that small l Liberal party I think will emerge, must and will reform the whole area.
Middle Australia wants nothing less
Surely if nothing else we can all agree it is middle Australia that says who will rule this country

Belly: Labor left split cannot bring enough voters to float.

That would be true. Most of Australia, well, over 30, would not vote for a Communistic Labor.
Belly: Labor is near the centre now, so a right split to would sink.

Near Centre but slightly Left of Centre at this stage. Except the Leader, Definitely Hard Left.

Belly: The very right, that part in the Liberal party not the very extreme smaller than small parties, have enemies within that party.

Of course, they do. So does Labor. That’s fairly Par for the Course, don’t you think. The Left & Centrists in the Liberal are frightened of the vocal Politically Correct People & they shouldn’t be because most people in Australia are fed up with the ridiculousness extremes of PC.

.
Belly: So what are right policies? as little action on climate change as is possible. Coal v renewables the right wants coal

Some but not all. Like myself. I realize that Climate Change is happening & Renewable energy is coming. But like me these peope, on the Right, realize that it can’t & won’t happen overnight. It will take another 30 years before Coal can be let go in the Energy Market. By then someone will have found a way to utilize Coal differently.

Belly: ScoMo tells us future retirees must not rely on pensions.

Well I can’t see that ever happening. Many people still will not have a big enough Pool to live on in Superannuation no matter how much they put into the Funds. Especially if they are allowed to withdraw & squander their Super.

Cont.

Cont.
Belly: offshore detention.

I agree Off shore detention should never have happened. Labor should be totally ashamed of itself for that move. The people on boats should have been shipped straight back to Indonesia. As soon as they set foot on Australian Soil.

The ones in Detention now have been paid to go elsewhere & they won’t go. It’s no longer Australia’s problem.

Let the UNCHR step in & do the job they get paid for, after all it was their job in the first place to provide them with a Refugee Camp. The reason they didn't is because, according the rules of the UNCHR Convention, they are no longer Refugees.

Jayb just as this thread is not about my personal bias exibiting yours, in part simply not true, will not change the truth.
Wentworth, look at my posts here, then ask is this mornings news, mounting evidence ScoMo is acting on offshore detention, coming true?
Post Wentworth, wait for it, the Liberal party if no one else, is feeding the chooks, the small l Liberals in its ranks and voters.
You will see much more of this.
Maybe even a Liberal come back, before the election is held.
You however will wait forever, without results, to see you leftist ALP or its leader come about.
Subject for another thread,* but Labor has its own internal wars* Shorten leads my faction, that faction leads the party, not always wisely, see Rudd knifing, its name is center unity, its path right.
Entertaining to read the thought that Marxists are hiding in my party, but in the end as unlikely as finding John Howard at a greens rally.

I will only post in this thread again if others do.
But in the weeks and months ahead it is my view this government will regain some, if not a lot, of support.
Not my favorite option, but in my view reality.
See Wentworth, was not the reason voters said enough.
Sure Turnbulls sacking was a factor.
My emerging small l was not a new thing.
It has been fighting for recognition in that party for decades
ScoMo still right of that party's center, is about to try dragging his party back to the voters
It will take place, government in this country lives in the middle, not left not right center.
Race/Faith hate in the end powers the rights success but not forever,like the ALP are communist goon show comments tell me here and world wide what out come worth achieving those two hates can bring, ever
We live at a time some forget the truly important things politics should deliver, and focus on the things it never can,lets watch and see
enjoyed the thread comments everyone, worth reading my thanks