It is not my intention to feed racists, or to join in calls to stop any race or faith from coming to the west but.
Germany and much of the EU welcomed refugees first we are told for reasons of humanity, and too we know growth is powered by increased numbers.
Some things took place because of this, it powered the extremes, it however has imported poverty, many of the refugees do don't find work and lack needed skills,it is my view soon, no later than a decade, walls will be put up that stop refugees coming to the EU just maybe that, in my view certain to come, will empower the EU and other countries to stop wars that are driving refugees from home.

all I can say is thankyou Tony Abbott. Without your guts we would be heading towards Europe much quicker.

A lot were economic refugees, right wing party's are getting a higher percentage of the votes it will happen well before ten years and it will not be walls they will be stopped in other ways not sure how but it will happen sooner than later.

The first thing they have to do is stop the Soros paid NGO ships that are being used to taxi them and encourages more to come as the risks have gone.

The thread is not about xenophobia, it is not about caring or not carrying on humanitarian grounds, it is however about the future of the EU, Brexit is because people fear too many refugees/migrants are being forced on countries.
Some EU country's are saying enough,more will.
Some are in deep financial holes, more will be,
Current middle east wars, fueled by Iran, Russia, America, may yet produce millions more displaced people.
West Africa is in parts a basket case, importing poverty is no answer.
IF the world had open doors, the one planet one people those in the UN seem to want, soon the west would be poorer than the countries refugees flee

The EU will close its doors, for all the above reasons.
I firmly think we can do some thing to stop needless suffering.
In my view we must, we can and should put a spine in the UN demand it be active, even if it takes a war, to stop wars.
The world as a community should fix aid, stop the theft and see it makes life better in the countries refugees flee from.
We can not sit back and wait for it to fix its self

Dear Belly,

At the end of World War II - Germany and Europe were
flooded with refugees. United Nations Relief Organisations
provided for their care. Countries in North America,
South America, Australia, New Zealand, undertook to give sanctuary
to most of these people, the remainder were absorbed in
Europe. We can only hope that the same will happen at the
end of this conflict.

Belly, you propose that the UN get its act together and stop war, even if it's necessary to go to war to do this. One hundred years ago we had 'a war to end all wars'. It didn't work then, and it won't work now.
In fact what we are seeing now, perpetual war in the Middle East and millions of refugees moving into Europe, is the continuing aftermath of WW1, the break-up of the Ottoman Empire, the battles in the Middle East, and the subsequent imposition by Europe of artificial new countries and regimes there. We can't turn back time, but maybe we should try to avoid repeating past strategies that didn't work and often made things worse. Going to war to end war doesn't work, it just tends to spawn more wars.

Foxy,

" We can only hope that the same will happen at the
end of this conflict."

I, for one, sincerely hope that it will not happen, at least for those refugees who hold to a political system disguised (not very well) as a religion and that was/is designed to conquer the world and force itself upon us all.

Hi BELLY...

You're right. Trying to feed, house and care for the massive influx of refugees, that've flooded many European countries, as they've done. Essentially from the African Continent, needs to be halted at the source.

That is to say, trying to prevent or limit civil insurrection or civil war actually starting in the first instance. To me with virtually no military knowledge of where precisely these skirmishes have their origins?

From what I've read, it usually starts with a significant criminal component attached to it, rather than a nationalistic element. I really don't know, but to provide a UN policing force in sufficiently numbers large enough too prevent these warring countries from fighting each other. And interdict these self-styled warlords out of existence, thus preventing them from plundering their already poor nations' - sounds to me to be a huge economic imperative, that will need to be financed by the European Union?

Furthermore many of these rebels and revolutionaries possess ulterior motives, quite different to what the world or us really know or understand - especially in the realm of trafficking; in weapons, narcotics, intelligence, and/or personnel willing to fight in order to feed their drug needs.

Even some with this unfathomable psychiatric need, to be allowed to kill with impunity. Sadly when you're born with an AK-47 in your hand, it's more important for you to maintain the weapon, then for them to learn to read and write.

Many of these young people 8-15 years, become killers without motive. Therefore they have this insatiable lust for killing. It's my humble belief, there 'may be' some of these Black Africans, we've already allowed into our country as refugees, may've had this sort of upbringing, and need to be watched closely?

Agree with you BELLY, this is an awful catastrophe in human terms, with no easy solution attached to it

Foxy it will not happen.
The left can not go on forever branding it racism, that path is blindness
The right can not go on forever using hate and open racism to try solving the problem
Even here in this country the PC crowd names a great Australian Dick Smith racist, for warning us this country cannot grow forever
Back to post ww2,20 million people had died, what is now the EU was partly destroyed,jobs for refugees/migrants existed, not now, not in the numbers they come now,importing poverty is not the answer
The EU WILL block refugees,they must,any plan for one world one people will not work if we bankrupt the west.
A middle path exists,help the third world grow, make aid free of corruption, make it work,or confront a right that one day will control the EU and find harsher ways to solve the issue

The Lowy Institute writes that there are reasons
why Australia should continue to engage with
Global Compacts on refugees... The perceived success
of "Operation Sovereign Borders" is unsustainable;
turnbacks may not be possible should the volume of boat
arrivals increase; there are limits to the capacity of
Papua New Guinea and Nauru to accommodate asylum seekers;
legal challenges to the policy are likely to continue;
and its financial costs are high ...

The following link explains further:

http://lowyinstitute.org/publications/global-compact-refugees-role-australia

While the subject is the EU, it could be this country, may well be in the near future.
If I had the power, everyone we hold in offshore detention, if found to be safe and a true refugee, not an economic one, would be living here now
Surely with 20 percent of yet another EU country voting far right we can see a trend?
A middle path just must be found.
By the way Sydney grew with 85.000 new comers last year.
Back to the EU, it is clear countries are increasingly voting right, on this issue.
Surely a two gallon bucket can not hold three gallons.
And if 100 people compete for 60 jobs lower wages and working conditions are the out come?
Are we afraid to confront the need for less war more aid but less migration/refugee flows?

Until the UN is rid of its gw fraudsters and Israel haters it will be remain useful for nothing.

What is not also acknowledged that there are two separate problems.
The African Problem:
The not usually recognised worry is that the population of Africa
will increase by multiple billions over the next 50 years or so.
The hope for the standard of living for Africans appears to be lost.
Corruption seems to be endemic and increased revenue just disappears
from view. Currently Libya is complaining about the million or so
would be immigrants to Europe in their country.
Libya is a mess anyway as it has multiple governments.

Europe is at risk of becoming like Africa if they do not take urgent
action to close their borders.
The Italians are promoting the Australian solution.

The second problem is the Arab problem:
Many Arabs are on the move because of war. Their towns and homes have
been destroyed by other Arabs or Persians.
Many just got up and walked. The mullas and Islamic hierarchy have
taken advantage of this to encourage this "invasion" of Europe.
They have realised that their long time desire to convert Europe to
Islam cannot be achieved by the sword but by immigration and the womb.
They have been quite open about this and encourage displaced people
to migrate to Europe.
Because of the policies of Islam, no integration, avoid making friends
with unbelievers and that lieing to kafirs is permissible they
establish separate colonies inside European cities.
The Islamic sharia law is not compatible with European law and custom.
They only obey the country's laws if they cannot avoid them.
Co-operation with the Islamic people is made difficult because they
have a high level of cousin marriage. This has affected their ability
to co-operate with other people and accept other than Islamic culture.

This is the cause of the upheaval now occurring in Europe.
They see it as way to achieve their destiny as demanded by Mohammad.

Yes Belly a wall is needed, but it would have to be an electronic wall.

Well aware Bazz about Africa, and indeed even the flow of refugees from there may double, China has its interests in mind in buying influence there but so too has just about everyone, from the height of the British Empire till now,
See no intent to fix the problem can you?
Again this is not about race faith pain hurting need to survive, it is a truth.
If great Britain became uninhabitable over night the EU and us could not,, without loss,, house them all, by the mid 2020,s that number could well be looking for a new home.
Simplistic racism will not fix this
Leftist charges of racism will not fix it.
Someone must set out a middle path, what a shame the UN is a total failure

BELLY not much point writing to you, if your intentions is not to respond.

Belly,

"Someone must set out a middle path...".

What is the middle path with Islam?

Belly is ignorant of the facts that cause war and conflict by this naïve statement. "Again this is not about race faith pain hurting need to survive, it is a truth."

It is different understandings of law and ideology that cause war i.e. one's faith. There is no such thing as race faith pain, it is a left wing creation to silence objectors. Religion, politics and law is not based on race.

I got it wrong, had hoped we could look at the numbers, not the race or faith.
Yes some difficulty exists because they do not look like us or even think like us.
We can if we wish claim every refugee/migrant is a terrorist.
Ignore that the richest country in the world, America, is a nation of migrants and refugees
NUMBERS how many can the EU take? is it wise to take so many, even if they, every one of them, are white Australians forced after someone pulled the plug and our country sank, to become migrants refugees?
Is it wise to import 4 workers for every job? is lowering the standard of living for every EU citizen a good idea? or are they too importing poverty? fact.. the EU is starting to close its doors,
A middle path? putting it crudely but arriving at the same out come the west could bribe refugees/migrants to stay at home with real increasing better used aid

Belly, have a look at what is causing conflict.

It is the desire of some to rule over others; and enslave them to an ideology. People who want to rule the World, one World Government.

Why do you think Turkey, Syria, Ukraine, Iraq have peoples uprisings or are at war? Similar developments are happening in Sweden, France, Germany and England. Why? Because the natives are feeling threatened by an ideology that conflicts with their values.

Those that want World peace, is on their terms [kill all opponents] and cannot accept political diversity and democratic Governments. Even in the Land Of the Free we have half the people not accept a democratically elected President. That identifies conflict, otherwise we must accept the right of all to be free to live their lives within a constitution that represents the rights of all people.

Belly,
Have another look at what Bazz and Joesephus have said. It is culture and ideology that causes conflict. One group wanting to force their system on others.

There is no middle ground with Islam, as Ise Mise pointed out. You are looking for causes that are not there. Over population can be fixed by government sponsored family planning, see Iran and Thialand.

Islam has made no secret of the fact that they wish to conquer the world.

I think being the nice, but thoroughly confused gentleman he is; BELLY looks upon the events in Europe purely through ideological eyes, rather than through the vision of a pragmatists.

History explains it all.
Mohammad commanded muslims to subject the world to the will of Allah.
Their initial objective was to conquer Rome, the declining power of
his times.
They successfully invaded Egypt, Nth Africa, Mesopotamia, India and finally Spain.
It is thought that they killed 8 million Hindus and India still has that problem.

They occupied Spain for 700 years and still claim that Andalusia is
Islamic Land illegally occupied by the Spanish.
Sharia law based on the Koran states that any land once occupied by
Muslims remains Islamic land forever.
You might not know that the Vatican is Islamic land under that rule.
It was occupied by an Islamic army from Sicily for a brief period.

It is still very true; He who ignores history is condemned to relive it.

Islam is what done it! yet before the second world war we never seemed to have much trouble with them, ok truth, Islam is a faith based on a primitive belief in a God that never existed, like Christianity,both have impacted badly on humanity, if, Both did not exist, this problem still would.
TELL ME how can the EU us, any western country not continue to be one that has multi cultures?
EU will, no doubt, stop refugees at the boarders,much like we do,are some saying the wars in Africa and the middle east are bought about by Islam, not other countries who should in my view have left those countries long ago?
are all the worlds problems Islam? really?

Belly,

If you do not see Islam as a problem for the World (and Australia) then you would come under my Muslim mate's dictum that the Australian Government (and others) is mad to allow Muslim migration.

I am baffled but not surprised, this thread has turned in to a hate Islam one.
Lets not play mind games, I too do not like that faith.
Never did never will, know it once lead humanity in science and much more, too this very much ex born again Christian does not like the Catholic Church/Faith, indeed the American Christian right and our very own Hillsong pty ltd re enforces my view, no God ever existed.
Now the sins of every faith, as shown in the Royal Commision in to sexual assaults of children, HIGHLIGHTED decades long offending in the Catholic Church, by people leading that Church, are then *all Catholics phedopkils?* off course not! why then are all Muslims said to be? *have we all studied the First Testament?* is it not just as cruel as the Koran? in fact are they not much the same? I actually would rather assimilation, not multiculturalism, but, do not demand others give up their faith, it would be a better world if we all did, but while I may not be in Gods waiting room death is our path not a forever room in the house of any God that requires us to hate others we are quite sure he gave life to as well as us, well not me in that last bit it was evolution that bought us about and phantom Gods that showed us how to hate each other

Belly said;
know it once lead humanity in science and much more,

Actually that is an exaggeration. Before Islam Baghdad became a centre
of science, I think around ad100. The science advance that occurred
in Andalusia (Spain) was mainly driven by the Jews. The Jews were
dhimmini, ie 2nd class citizens who pay the Jizah tax to muslims.

I do not know who were the driving force in science in Baghdad but
there was a lot of scientific development, including the size of the
earth and that the earth rotated around the sun, but most of this came
from the Kazarks in Central Asia.

The muslims have claimed a lot of these developments for themselves.
You may not know that the official belief of Islam, as affirmed by
the university in Cairo, whose name I have forgotten, and is the
premier centre of Islamic study states that the earth is flat.
It cannot be a sphere as Allah has stated in the Koran that it is flat.
So there !
It must be hard for muslims to reconcile the real world against what
these very learned Immans state is true.

Whoops Belly,
Just went back and checked.
I have got the date wrong for science in Baghdad.
It was in the 9th century after the advent of Islam.
Whether the Jews had a part in it I do not know as most Jews were in
exile or dead at that time.
I know that it was the Kazarks that brough scientific knowledge to
the Middle East. It will give me something to research.

Found a bit more on Central Asia.
The Uzbeks it appears were the well stream of Central Asian science.
Kazarkstan also shared in that scientific development.

Like many, the Central Asian countries are to me like another planet.
Judging by what I have read I think Indian mathematics drove science
through the whole area. Google it Belly, it is an eyeopener.

"I am baffled but not surprised, this thread has turned in to a hate Islam one."

Whenever people use the word 'unbelieveable' etc. - in a sense of astonishment at some event, I usually always think of the counter-argument such as 'totally believeable'.

Many people are narrow-minded.

What did you think was going to happen Belly?
If I said at the beginning that there's a 90% chance this discussion would become a heated disagreement over Islam, would anyone really have been surprised?

Why are you baffled?
Are you baffled that others don't think the same as you do?
Please explain.

You obviously remain very ignorant Belly if you can't see the difference between Mohammed and Jesus Christ. You only need minnimum research ability as well as a desire for truth. The fact that you swallow evolution fantasy or at least use it as an excuse to deny the obvious also says alot.

Belly,
I have not seen any racism in these posts, nor is it a hate Islam thread. Certain facts about Islam have been posted, whether you accept them or not is up to you.

Nobody is playing word or mind games, I am not religious and I could not care less what others believe in. I do think those that come here must obey our laws and social standards. I believe muslims when they state that they will take over the world by breeding and I think every muslim here in Aus believes he/she is a pioneer for Islam and will do what they can to further the interests of Islam. Why else would they travel across the world to settle in a country with an alien culture to themselves. Only to further Islam interests, like missionaires did for christens years ago.

Funny that we do not have problems with any other religious groups, but then Islam is far more than just a religion, it is an ideology that effects every aspect of muslims lives.

I see nothing compatable between muslims and our society. The way to have a cohesive society is to import only those with similar values to us. Then there will be no conflict.

When Bazz did the Islamic people who then controlled much of the world leave Spain,on my return in this thread and just about every one I posted, I knew the left would be offended by me,and the very right? let us not kid ourselves.
In all things, no one side is likely to win every thing it wants,a middle considered path is the easiest out come to get.
It is not some throw away line, the EU WILL BLOCK REFUGEES and yes xenophobia, along with an unwillingness of SOME Muslims to try to live in harmony will be the driver
Never the less *population growth* will not be solved by moving the population around, here my views get a bit strict,, for no other reason than humans do not obey laws they do not like,,
restricting population growth must be forced if needed but not based on race class or faith a one law for all law.
aid must be measured on how well that growth is working, no progress no aid.

Just to throw in another thought, would Muslim control be any worse than what we have now.

It would get rid of womens lib, same sex marriage, academic activism, & the increasing lack of morals in our western society.

I'm damned if I know which if either is preferable.

Belly asked about the Muslims leaving Spain;
They were driven out in the final battles after some hundreds of years
of war against them by the Spaniards. The final campaigns were by
King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella and finalised in 1492.
There is a site I have seen somewhere that detailed that war, in motion.
I will see if I can find it and send you the link.

Belly,
I agree, it is most likely that EU will attempt to stop immigration from Africa at some point. Call it xenophobia if you wish but will be driven by the effect migrants are having on the European culture. Australia needs to watch the situation closely and take action before we reach the same situation. Whether the EU succeeds or not is another question. Australia is a multi-racial country, not multicultural. We expect all citizens to obey our laws and social standards that we set.

On population, I said before on this thread that you should examine family planning in Iran and Thailand. Both countries reduced the number of children each woman had from six down to less than two. It was done by the government sponsoring family planning and supplying the means. No harsh measures were taken. Since then Iran has decided to increase its population but I think Thailand still has its program running. So populations can be reduced if governments decide to do so

Hasbeen - What about the rest no music, no dancing, no pork, no dogs and that is the short list sorry forgot your wife at least you will be able to have a few will look like a letter box in a burqu.

This will be confronting, some truths always are
Remember I do not like this faith, Know I think multiculturalism has been forced on us
Maybe by powers we never even know exist.
And yes I think assimilation should be the target.
However if we change the word Islam, or Muslim, much of what I read here, looks very much like that Nazi, used against Jews,very near as false too.
IF humanity is to live as one, [some one seems to think we should] first step maybe a no faith, ever,should be able to impact in any way on the lives and beliefs of other faiths followers.
One day in the EU and the whole world, we may be able to see our problem is ever increasing population growth, and too, that half the world is outbreeding us, that half is too suffering the EU ,without change, future hunger and poverty, a symptom of over population

Belly, Communism has equally murdered millions of citizens and they deny existence of any deity. They wanted to have a One World Government and control the beliefs and practices of its citizens. The socialist Greens in Australia have been influenced by this ideology.

Josephus no way I want to live in the world you think we have now
another EU country controlled by the right, has said no to continuing taking refugees, and the EU has threatened them
The EU will be forced to see others leaving on that issue and in the end it will be EU policy to bar refugees.
a war may well be fought over the issue of those who are forcing the refugees to flee, include Saudi Arabia, Iran in that group, Russia, China,America should all stop the fighting and in the case of those outside Africa and the middle east leave those countries to sort out their own problems

Belly,

You said

"However if we change the word Islam, or Muslim, much of what I read here, looks very much like that Nazi, used against Jews,very near as false too".

Would you explain and give example of what has been stated on this thread that sounded Nazi like to you and what was false.

Interested to see what you think is Nazi like.

Belly said that a list of counries should stop fighting.
Well that would be nice, but in Islam the world is divided into two.
The world of peace, the 100% Islamic controlled countries, and
The world of war, all the rest with whom Islam will be at war forever.

In other words Islam considers that it is at war with all who are not muslims.
That it is as written the Koran and cannot be changed on pain of death.
The Koran they say is the word of Allah and it is forbidden for muslims
to adapt the wording in any way as that is blasphemy.

Hence Islam has never had a Reformation as the west has since
Martin Luther nailed his thesis to the doors of Worms Cathedral.

This reformation problem is at the heart of all the problems with Islam.
Like you Belly, I lived most of my life not understanding all this but
in some parts of the world this has been a problem for 1400 years.
Over the last 1000 years it has become a problem for India and the west.

It is no coincidence that the most backward countries are Muslim.
Some because of oil are rich in money but poor in humanity.

I sense we must be courteous to Belly as he is loosing his ability to think rationally. His desires for a better World are admiral, but in understanding reality he is lost. He blames the right without understanding the reason for closing borders and the Islamic conflict.

If Belly was placed in a mental institution against his will I wonder if he would fight against those placing his there? or is he just willing to submit to the will of his captors for peace?? Now do not create a conflict Belly! You do not wish to live in a situation of conflict, do you?

Josephus amI to ignore your low and insulting post?well yes, but not without saying in my view your intellectual abilities a few.
The thread even knowing I posted it baffles me
While a recent returnee,I too am a veteran of this forum, it always asked this question of me.
Are we representative of Australians, are our views mirrored by them?
I have at an overnight stay on a country construction site, breasted the bar with mis 20,s Lebanese Muslims, they are no follower of the faith.
I truly understand, some Muslims who are not terrorists, behave badly, adding to the hate and dislike here.
I can not ever escape the truth the EU, action are in part, only in part, because those Muslims exist,my detractor is a CHRISTIAN, and hates, followers of another God, can we not see if No God existed we would not need the hate,100 years from now Islam will not control the world, China may, well may, Russia too could,will you then hate them?

"...,will you then hate them?"

Maybe, if he lives so long!!

Some because of oil are rich in money but poor in humanity.
Bazz,
And, some were riding on the sheeps' back. So, it'll be interesting when the oil stops & if they'll be going the same way as sheep jockeys ?

see that a Syrian refugee has been charged with the murder of a 13 year old girl in Canada. The compassion of Trudeau. Certainly has shown his gratefulness for Canada's 'compassion'.

Belly said- "However if we change the word Islam, or Muslim, much of what I read here, looks very much like that Nazi, used against Jews,very near as false too."

Answer- Perhaps there should be a comparative discussion between Communism and Nazism given that so many "social libertarians" want to bring it up.

Belly, Who built the old Burma railway? Who built the Siberian railway in the last century? were they there willingly? Both prisoners were there to there to show dominance of another ideology.

Siberia 25,000,000 for re-education in the benefits of communism. No deity in Communism. Gulag Victims. An estimated 25 million people passed through the gulags in the later 1920s, 1930s and 1940s. When Stalin died in 1953 there were still 12 million prisoners in Soviet Labor camps. An estimated 12 to 20 million people died in gulags under Stalin's rule.

By the time the Burma railway was completed in October 1943, at least 2,815 Australians, over 11,000 other Allied prisoners, and perhaps 75,000 Romusha were dead.

All there people placed by their captors against their will, this is what a godless ideology does to others they want to control. The unelected EU masters and the UN Muslim masters want to control what citizens of countries under their administration. Hence Britex pulls out and America from funding UN terror cells. The religion causing the problems there is Islam who believe in dominating the world.

Either you give people freedom to live peacefully, or you control them. Demonstrate your position on how you would bring about PEACE. It appears you want to control people by overlording their freedoms.

Josephus,
Peace could be a step closer if education was run by decent bureaucrats put into place by decent politicians who in turn are voted in by decent voters, alas !
To get enough decent people the first step is a National Service. The second step is tax reform & the third step is Law reform.

Some comment,s are,well fair dinkum! you throw a bit in about a piece of vermin in Canada and his victim!
How many such crimes are committed in the world every day by not Muslims?
Josephus reaches deep down in his dark mind to throw Communism and Nazism center stage.
My last post asked are we representative of Australian thought, gee I hope not!
EU may only be leading well following actually, Australias foot steps, but much of the western world will follow.
Racism will get a run, but in truth we are seeing the first impacts of over population of this planet.
More, far more, refugees will be a product of this finding some place to go will be the hard part.
We all, constantly, see and hear, stupid people from within Islam who say just plain stupid things,like Coke makes Muslims impotent, next time you hear that type of stuff remember your posts here

Belly, you still have not posted the answer to true peace for everyone!

You talk about imposing peace which every Dictator has tried!

It does not work as it violates the will of the opposition.

You might want a World where every one is in agreement and no will is violated. A true understanding of love and respect of difference for each other is the only answer. It is my experience that the influence of the New Testament has had that effect on Western society.

To Belly through the chair- I have to respect your position against multiculturalism, socialism. You seem to have indicated that multiculturalism is unsustainable and without a mandate. Your position on refugees is different though.

With the refugee issue there are a few choices...
a. Let them into other countries- this can erode their capacity to help over time- this is advocated by the UN due to circumstances after WWII.
b. Solve the security problem- the UN method seems to be ineffective.
c. Let them die- not really desirable but given the erosion of support capacity seems inevitable.

There seems to be a need to understand the underlying cause of the conflicts in each case rather than being reactionary. But sometimes you have to just react. Sometimes (perhaps often) the cause of the conflict is due to population pressures.

Everything has it's Pro's and Con's.
How many times must I say it?

When you promote migration from 3rd world countries, the first thing that happens, is that you take away the best and brightest that country had to offer itself.

You think the best and brightest are the last to leave?
They are the first to leave, and move on to greener pastures.

So the nation is left to itself with only the poor, the uneducated and the destitute, whilst falling prey to wealthy foreigners.

Immigration keeps these nations poor by taking their best and brightest away to foreign shores.

They are the first to leave, and move on to greener pastures
Armchair critic,
One would tend to believe this to be the case. But what about the many from those religious conflict riddled desert valleys now settled here ?
I'd hate to think what those left behind are like.

A C,
I agree with you.

By what right do we have to poach the best and brightest from third world countries? Simply because it is cheaper for our industry rather than train our own?

If our industry needs skilled workers, we should train them ourselves.

Belly, show the false postings and the Nazi like comments!

CM well you know it is my unchangeable view multiculturalism is forced on us,
By who knows? the UN? the big money that in truth controls the world? spooky stuff but,, even more so because it is truth.
However integration works.
Always has always will,look at us and America,note *we all came out of Africa*
Besides my view a form of self interest, with a heart, we call Capitalism is the only system that currently will work.
The only other would be Dictatorship.
So can we say the EU while yes having concerns about the faith, social malleability and education of refugees/migrants, has to confront the glass is near full, jobs homes even food can not forever be ignored, it faces today what the world much face tomorrow, population growth must be stalled, importing poverty is not the answer

CM well you know it is my unchangeable view multiculturalism is forced on us,
Belly,
Yes & which side of our political competing circuses was the main instigator of this in the mid 70's ?
Ok, enough of rubbing salt into the festering wound. Just think back to Babylon & how they ended up ? Three thousand years on & the place still looks like a quarry & the people ? Well, they haven't learnt anything since either.
The most worrying aspect is that we now have Australians plain immune to learning from past mistakes & they even try to out-do these mistakes.

Belly,

"CM well you know it is my unchangeable view multiculturalism is forced on us,
By who knows? the UN? the big money that in truth controls the world? spooky stuff but,, even more so because it is truth."

Multiculturism started in Australia in 1788 and it was started by the Poms.

Yes Is Mise, the poms only took the criminal element initially. Then the poor and destitute from Scotland and Ireland. During the gold rush period the Chinese and Afghanis. Then after the Wars the Europeans and developed the White Australian Policy.

The Lobor government during the time of Whitlam with Al Grassby opened the doors to every culture; and established multiculturalism. They were told they could come here and retain their culture; little did they understand how a political religious culture like Islam with its difference creates social conflict.

Well as expected we continue to show our dislike of Islam, that is who is being targeted here, and now we see it is a lefty plot to make us live in a multicultural world, not assimilate and live in a type of peace.
When it comes people will call it freedom, a well known and used warning about one world dictatorship,
Now would the first step not be by dividing us in to little groups hating each other.
And before that Dictatorship became our master would it not promise to fix every thing we feared?
If every migrant/refugee to the EU was not Muslim, they would still be less educated, less likely to find work, and still be stopped at the boarders, as we do in this country.
See Africa, the middle east, the sub continent, are all over populated, just growing food or even having drinking water, is under threat tomorrows refugee flows are, till stopped going to at least double the current numbers

"Well as expected we continue to show our dislike of Islam, that is who is being targeted here, and now we see it is a lefty plot to make us live in a multicultural world, not assimilate and live in a type of peace."

Where do you get the idea that multiculturalism has anything to do with assimilation?

Josephus,

Let us not forget the 20 different nationalities who were at the Eureka Stockade; Australians were in the minority.
http//www.ballaratheritage.com.au/eureka-a-multicultural-affair.html

Try this:

http://www.ballaratheritage.com.au/eureka-a-multicultural-affair.html

I always find the video evidence to rain on everyone's party.

Here's your EU.
Here's your Islam.
Here's your democracy.
Here's your progressive diversity agenda.

http://youtu.be/RqlD_r6T160

You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool all the people all the time;

With me, you've got buckley's chance of me ever falling for any of these stupid agendas.
You can all be well assured that hell will indeed freeze over before that ever happens.

Posted by Belly, Thursday, 13 September 2018 5:43:58 PM- "Well as expected we continue to show our dislike of Islam, that is who is being targeted here, and now we see it is a lefty plot to make us live in a multicultural world, not assimilate and live in a type of peace."

Answer- Well multiculturalism is a "Socially Progressive/ Liberalist" policy and the left are also know as the progressives/ liberals. But yes the Industrialists also benefit from multiculturalism because it increases the supply of workers and reduces wages- supply and demand. There are some economy of scale benefits but also some dis-economy of scale costs- the thing is for the poorer members of the community accommodation is the major expense. Also socialists did say that the biggest battle is between the employers and the employees and when all the peoples of the world come together a socialist utopia will result.

Frank Lowy sold Westfield for 32Bln and thinks we can afford to be generous to immigrants and refugees.
"Now that our borders are secure, I believe we can afford to be ambitious on immigration and generous towards refugees who come through the established processes," he said.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-13/frank-lowy-slams-australian-political-system-us-relationship/10244138
http://www.smh.com.au/business/letter-reveals-extent-of-family-battle-with-ato-20101128-18cds.html

Frank wasn't even born here, he got rich off our hard labours, and now tells us how we should spend our money.

when all the peoples of the world come together a socialist utopia will result.
Canem malum,
Yeah? The Unions won't like that.

Armchair critic what a truly uninformed comment, Frank came after ww2 we needed migrants desperately then, just to build our country in to this days great one it is,
In fact while my convict back ground is not to be hidden willing to bet half, at least, of posters here have such a back ground.
And too, as it is seen to be true, grand children from that migration flow have joined the anti Muslim circus.
Growth is powered by immigration, fact.
Some are using this thread, I charge you with that, to try to bring back the white Australia policy, no matter what the EU does, the world does, we will forever be a nation of many cultures and back grounds *we are one but we are many and from all the lands on earth we come*
EU and the world hopefully will never use pure racism to fix a problem about numbers and the inability of some to intergate

Some are using this thread, I charge you with that, to try to bring back the white Australia policy,
Belly,
I don't believe this to be the case at all. What I am convinced of is that many Australians are aching to bring back some normalcy, a dose of common sense & decency. People are past all this racial idiocy. Only the racists use race as a tool, decent people are more focussed on harmony & sustainability.
Normal, decent people DO support genuine refugees. It's the fake refugees, the silent invader, the one who callously exploit the insipid Left that are the ones the racists are trying to fill this country with & the decent folk are standing up against this.
Australia still has a tiny chance to prevent a Europe type scenario but the racists are a formidable force hell-bent on destroying us & for some idiotic reason themselves as well.
I would encourage single women to come here & out-marry that primitive outfit & leave the young men to get a dose of their own medicine in their countries.

Posted by Belly, Friday, 14 September 2018 6:30:12 AM- *we are one but we are many and from all the lands on earth we come*

Answer- Maybe "The Seekers" are traitors to the British Australian builders of Australia.

//Maybe "The Seekers" are traitors//

Nah, if writing crap songs was grounds for treason, Kanye West would surely have got the chair by now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0woboOZ9dmY

"What I am convinced of is that many Australians are aching to bring back some normalcy, a dose of common sense & decency. People are past all this racial idiocy. Only the racists use race as a tool, decent people are more focussed on harmony & sustainability"

Too right.
If your someone who sees the world through racist coloured spectacles, then you'll perceive that theres an element of racism in everything.
- Don't blame me for the way others see the world.

Any one? any one at all care to tell me how this country or even America can not forever be one made up of people from all over the world?
Saw the charge the writers of that song are or maybe traitors,laughable but tragic too.
Back then the focuse was on Asians, how they would be the ruin of us and our country.
Why not the Chinese, they make up more than three times the number of Muslims
Greeks in Victoria? EU can it ever not be the many country's and races it was before the economic partnership?

Am I imagining things - or do we currently have
a serious problem in this country - of leaders
who promote a permanent separate identity within
Australia for their adherents - an identity that
is very divisive in today's Australia.

Regaining community trust is essential. Part of the
solution must be disempowering those leaders
and encourage participation by all groups within
the wider community.

Perhaps before we look at our refugee "problem," we
need to try to fix our internal problems first?
Unfortunately, I feel that it will probably take
centuries for that mentality to be bred out. In
the meantime the country will remain divided as
long as the "colonials" deny the contribution of later
arrivals.

All new migrants will continue to be looked at with
suspicion and fear as history has demonstrated.
And refugees will not be seen as a global problem -
but as someone else's problem.

People forget that thanks to Western involvement in
recent wars - has created this refugee problem.
Therefore Western powers should take their share of
responsibility.

"Am I imagining things - or do we currently have
a serious problem in this country - of leaders
who promote a permanent separate identity within
Australia for their adherents - an identity that
is very divisive in today's Australia"

Are you referring to Islam; or the divisive nature of the lefts identity politics?
Or am I missing something?
I don't understand.

any one at all care to tell me how this country or even America can not forever be one made up of people from all over the world?
Belly,
Australia is already made up from people from everywhere. I don't think anyone has a problem with that.
Where people start to have problems is when crapheads from everywhere come here & are let in by australian crapheads.
You see, Australia's biggest problem are Australians who only have money on the brain.
In the pre PC era they were called traitors, now they're called bureaucrats.

To Armchair Critic- It seems to be only three or four posters that support immigration. They seem to have one foot in Australia and one elsewhere- perhaps due to marriage or family relationship some due to ideology. They don't seem to understand that just because they may not support mass immigration doesn't mean that they are against members of their own family that happen to come from other countries- despite what the socialist propaganda would have you believe.

Armchair, I have just finished watching that Youtube link you gave.
I think that is a classic case of the operation of the "Deep State".
I think it is shameful that British Justice could fall to such a low level.
Obviously that judge got his orders in that first hour.
Then the moving of Tommy to the Muslim controlled prison was intended
as either the hope he would be murdered, or would just give up.
The appeal judge must have twigged what had been going on but was
limited in what he could do.
Certainly he was scathing of the first kangaroo court.

I think Robertson has revealed in that video why they want him gone
as he mentioned that a document/video that names those that hushed up
the muslim rape and girl trafficking gangs is to be produced.

Possibly the "Deep State" already knows about it.
It would certainly explain a lot.
Conspirosy theory ?
Hmm, well sometimes there is a conspirosy especially where sex is involved.

AC,

You are missing a great deal.

It's obvious that you don't understand.

Canem Malum,

Perhaps those posters are talking about something
totally different. Like the divisiveness that is
being encouraged in our communities - and that this
should be solved first before we tackle any other
problem.

Just a thought.

As for where people have their feet?
Now that's a different topic altogether - as colonials
we're in no position to be critical of others - really.

The descendants of British people made the cities and the infrastructure. We do owe a debt to the aboriginal people but not to immigrants. But socialists don't believe in private property and immigrants don't believe in the debt to those that took them in when they were homeless.

Foxy, yes there is a uniform instruction from leaders to not integrate.
It is based on commands from the Koran and cannot be reinterpreted.
"do not take unbelievers as friends" is just one example.

Some do of course, but they are liable to admonishment.
There will come a time in Europe when history will repeat itself and
war will erupt again between Europeans and muslims.
When it happens there I think it will be hard to stop it occurring
here at a lower level, perhaps just armed skirmishes.

I have seen references, vague, that security organisations in Europe
believe it is inevitable.

Canem Malum,

Thank You for proving my point.

Your attitude is exactly the one that is the problem.

The British colonisation of this country has been
fully acknowledged. Our history books are full of
this information. Nobody is in denial of the history.
What is concerning is the promotion by some of a permanent
separate identity within this country instead of
encouraging participation by all groups within the
community. We are all Australians - not just those
of British ancestry. And that is something we all
need to acknowledge. "We're no longer - British - you
know," We're Australians! All of us!

Canem Malum,

As for the debt that we owe to those that took us in?

That has been paid in full - by blood, sweat, and tears,
in providing labour during times of acute labour shortages,
especially in outlying areas and rebuilding Australia's capital
structures that were to serve the nation for many decades to
come.

Plus many newcomers established building companies, new
factories, retail shops, service and repair centres and
small businesses (and large - Myers) and in all kinds of
trades. And also in the fields of the Arts (ballet),
Music, writers, artists, theatre, culture, education and
training and professions, and academia, as well as the
military forces.

There's more - but this will do for now.

Foxy some times we must just ignore it and let some comments pass, this thread one I started,, has become not just an anti Muslim one for some but an anti migration one too
IF ever we stopped migration, the world stopped migration,productivity and growth would stall
Bring about a very real recession.
The Dali Lamar, today goggle news, has told refugees to fix their own home country's,, warned Europe belongs to the Europeans.
Well for other reasons that may/will in my view happen, but we should fund that building a better life.
Worth noting this lefty thing? not really any one who cares for others is left of some posters
This much I think Trump-ism will flounder, he will fall, and those finding a demi God in him one day soon will claim they always knew he was a clown

Belly said - "IF ever we stopped migration, the world stopped migration,productivity and growth would stall. Bring about a very real recession. The Dali Lamar, today goggle news, has told refugees to fix their own home country's,, warned Europe belongs to the Europeans."

Answer- I agree that productivity and growth will stall- but this is necessary. We cannot compete with those that have higher economies of scale- but we would not want to live in countries that have this high density of population. This is a conundrum. But there are things we can do- we can move to "balance our trade" as has been done numerous times in history- we can become more self sufficient- we can control our own direction as a nation.

I have trust in the strength of the British Australian stock and those that we have chosen to share Australia with that we can survive any recession and rebuild our strength with vision and effort and create our own future. We can engage or not with the world in the way we choose.

The UN talks about peoples and cultures having "the right to self determination" some believe that this is wrong- they may have their own reasons.

Don't let them put their reasons onto you... you have a choice to protect your family and your culture or to lay down and let those that know better walk over your body.

As Belly has kindly provided "The Dalai Lama" appears to agree with me- after all he has been working to get back his home for all of his life. It has been concerning to me that I seemed to have a different view to the Dalai Lama- sometimes there are great struggles with great minds (not mine)- I put it down to the vicissitudes of the world- but it seems he has come to my view- hopefully this means there will be less pain in the world.

http://www.newsweek.com/dalai-lama-says-europe-europeans-refugees-should-go-home-and-rebuild-1120065

Dear Belly,

You're right. I know you're right.
I shouldn't let things get up my nose.
As you know
my parents arrived here as refugees in 1949
(Displaced persons). They had to work their
contracts off for two years. I was born here.
And yet some grub dares to tell me that we're
not Australians because we're not of British
Ancestry. Well - excuse me- I'm not a proctologist
but I recognise an A-hole when I see one. And I feel
obligated to respond. My mother passed away in January
of this year. Dad died of a major coronary in the 1970s
at the age of 52. He worked at a rubber-factory in
Sydney - despite being a qualified academic. So he paid
his dues well and truly. He had a hard life. But he
was independent, and never asked for anything from anybody.

And, then there's this baloney of having one foot
in another country? Hell - what other country?
Anyway, I'd better stop before I blow a fuse.

I guess to Socialists and Immigrants are going to say that the Dalai Lama is racist.

Foxy said "As you know my parents arrived here as refugees in 1949 (Displaced persons). They had to work their contracts off for two years. I was born here. And yet some grub dares to tell me that we're
not Australians because we're not of British Ancestry. Well - excuse me- I'm not a proctologist but I recognise an A-hole when I see one. And I feel obligated to respond. My mother passed away in January of this year. Dad died of a major coronary in the 1970s at the age of 52. He worked at a rubber-factory in Sydney - despite being a qualified academic. So he paid his dues well and truly. He had a hard life. But he was independent, and never asked for anything from anybody."

Answer- So it appears that Foxy believes that she has a right to be called Australian because of the suffering that her family went through and because of the investment that they have put into Australia over one generation. Good start. Now imagine the feelings of those who have many generations invested. For who many of their family members have s*itted blood going back unimaginable numbers of generations. Either way those that want to sell off Australia are disloyal. Maybe you do understand Foxy perhaps someday you will learn to be loyal. Perhaps not.

Canem Malum,

"Answer- So it appears that Foxy believes that she has a right to be called Australian because of the suffering that her family went through and because of the investment that they have put into Australia over one generation. Good start. Now imagine the feelings of those who have many generations invested. For who many of their family members have s*itted blood going back unimaginable numbers of generations. Either way those that want to sell off Australia are disloyal. Maybe you do understand Foxy perhaps someday you will learn to be loyal. Perhaps not"

One must have a conceptual problem if one imagines that there are unimaginable numbers of generations between now and 1788.

I would have no doubt of Foxy's loyalty at all, 99% of the immediate post-war migrants went on to integrate and become Australians and, often, more Australian than the Australians.

I started my working life with migrants and some of them are still my friends after over 60 years, sadly quite a few are no longer with us but where ever they came from they were Australians.

Is Mise,

Thank You for your kind words.

I wasn't aware that one's loyalty to this country and
being regarded as an Australian - was
based on how many generations of British Ancestry
one went back. I thought it was what was in one's
heart that mattered. My parents used to tell stories
about all the Lithuanians who used
to consider themselves as loyal "patriots," yet who sold
their country out to the Soviet Regime.
I wonder how many generations they back to?

BTW: -

In the book, "Lithuanian Studies in Australia," by Dr
A. P. Taskunas - we're told that "The first Lithuanians
known to come to Australia arrived in 1833..."

We're also told that - " In Lithuania...the country's
first university - the University of Vilnius - was founded
in 1579. One of its later professors, biologist Georg
Forster, had, a major link with Australia: in fact he had
accompanied Captain James Cook on his second voyage
(1772 - 1775) and was subsequently one of the first European
authors to publish papers on Australia."

Fancy that.

Why is no-one drawing attention to how to deal with the REAL problem with immigration ? The bad migrants ?

Either way those that want to sell off Australia are disloyal.

Because Indy, we need to deal with the bad locals
first - we don't want to create more problems.

// It seems to be only three or four posters that support immigration.//

And even fewer opposed.

//They seem to have one foot in Australia and one elsewhere- perhaps due to marriage or family relationship some due to ideology.//

OK, so I'm in favour of immigration. Perhaps you'd like to apply your psychic powers/poor attempt at cold reading to my specific case:

* Where is my foot which isn't in Australia?
* Is it there due to a) marriage; b) family relationship or c) ideology? If c), which particular ideology?

//They don't seem to understand that just because they may not support mass immigration//

I don't support mass immigration. You comprehend that there is a quantitative difference between 'immigration' and 'mass immigration', right?

//The descendants of British people made the cities and the infrastructure//

Bollocks.

But hey, if you want to be that parochial and narrow-minded, surely you'd have no objections to the descendants of the Irish coming along and taking back the bits of the cities and infrastructure they made, stone by stone... after all, if the British made most of the built environment it's not like there'll be any significant damaged caused by the Irish diaspora reclaiming the apparently token effort they put into making Australia great.

Or the Italians doing likewise. Or the Greeks. Or the Germans. Actually, I'm starting to question the wisdom of this idea... it's going to lead to widespread demolition.

Maybe we should just be thankful for all the hard work that a variety of nationalities have contributed to, and not go giving ourselves airs and graces because we come from British stock. After all, it's not like all the English would have contributed equally. Some of them would have been from Norfolk, for a start...

//I agree that productivity and growth will stall- but this is necessary.//

Typical hippy argument.

Foxy I have some news, some will say it is good I rather think it is bad, we have always had xenophobia in this country
Always had a right of reality team too.
Last night channel surfing I found *the great Australian riot* SBS? not sure now.
It was at a time, just post ww1, that we called England home, and the right, returned service men, took to Russian migrants.
The only good thing about that is looking back, we are better than that today.
PUT MONEY ON IT some of the loudest voices here came from recent [last 100 years] migration

Foxy,
As our resident OLO link expert can you please shine some light on which countries export the greatest %age of stroppy migrants ?

Thanks Belly for starting this thread. I hope that you have achieved the result you were hoping for. If the number of posts is any measure I would call it a runaway success.

CM still not sure we reached and conclusions but the EU problem will not go away and world wide refugees will continue to grow in numbers
Just maybe we will, after the dust settles, we may be able to look at the impacts increasingly arid country's, over population, and education, war is having on this

Indy,

I'm not sure about being a "link expert," however
the following may help towards your question.
As you can see from the comments on the link -
the answer to your question depends on quite a
few factors - take your pick which one appeals to
you the most:

http://www.quora.com/Which-country-is-the-worst-in-the-world-and-the-trouble-maker-in-the-recent-20-years-The-USA-France-China-Russia

Indy,

My apologies - the above link doesn't work
because - I left out the UK.
Here it is again. Hopefully it will work this
time:

http://www.quora.com/Which-country-is-the-worst-in-the-world-and-the-trouble-maker-in-the-recent-20-years-The-USA-UK-France-China-Russia

In the end both sides need to move towards each other to find common ground and the ability to live together, even then refugees will not en-mass be able to enter the EU, in say a twenty year time span
AID is the only antidote well used targeted and fraud free, linked to population growth

Foxy,
Interesting link but not an answer to my question. I'd hazard to guess the most troublesome migrants are from NE Africa.
This is not as straight forward an assessment as it sounds because I'm taking into account several factors but again I'm generalising so individual examples of good/bad is not an issue.
There is indoctrinated fanaticism by making false use of a faith, there is a mob mentality, there is lack of compassion, there is opportunism, there appears to be a lack of tolerating multi culturalism, there appears to be a total lack of committment of helping to better the lives of those lft behind & appreciate the host nations.
I have not seen these traits in any other nationalities of migrants because I think all other migrants come here for a better life, not drag the failures of their homelands & re-establish them here.

Tonio Lavis,
You said. And fewer opposed.

Was it not that YAM woman that did not believe the polls that showed a majority opposed muslim migration and ran her own poll. Only to find the numbers opposing muslim migration was far higher than the original poll.

I seem to recall something about that.

//You said. And fewer opposed.//

Yeah, I know.

//Was it not that YAM woman that did not believe the polls that showed a majority opposed muslim migration and ran her own poll. Only to find the numbers opposing muslim migration was far higher than the original poll.//

I have no idea, and I also have no idea why you think it's relevant. The post I responded to didn't refer to 'muslim migration', and I know I wasn't talking about it either. I don't know why you felt it necessary to stick in the word 'muslim' off your own bat.

Lots of different people migrate to Australia. Only some of them are Muslims. Scotsmen, for example, are typically not Muslim. But they make wonderful immigrants, because wherever they go they take their own culture with them and resist assimilation. The result: massed pipes and drums, if you know where to look. And the spectacle of live massed pipes and drums sends shivers down my spine. Of course, they're not the only migrant culture which has made a positive contribution to our great nation.

So in general principles, I support immigration. I also think we can could do with less immigration, because the numbers are too high, and better managed immigration which supports a wider policy of decentralisation so that our population isn't mostly crammed into our capital cities.

But I don't think that cutting immigration numbers from 'too many' to 'zero' overnight is a good idea; it needs to be done more gradually to avoid to much a sudden shock to the system. And I don't think reducing the numbers all the way to zero is a good idea. Seems to me that not letting anybody in (or out, presumably, because that would lead to population decline) is a bit of a North Korean thing to do... I'd prefer Australia not go down that road.

Toni Lavis said "But I don't think that cutting immigration numbers from 'too many' to 'zero' overnight is a good idea; it needs to be done more gradually to avoid to much a sudden shock to the system. And I don't think reducing the numbers all the way to zero is a good idea."

Answer- Yes there are too many opportunists that would be negatively impacted by demolishing the immigration system. Such as the universities, the immigration bureaus, the taxi industry, the IT industry.

Zero can be read a few different ways-
1. Zero net growth
2. Zero net immigration
3. Zero immigration

But the immigration problem needs to be viewed not in isolation but in comparison to other factors.

On balance- those that stand to be in risk of "immigration shock" "should burn" for their betrayal of the Australian people. Those that do harm need to feel pain- Pavlov's Dog.

//Zero can be read a few different ways//

F^%k me, who decided it was a good idea to let post-modernists teach maths? Sorry, Yappy Chihuahua. Zero = 0, the same way that A = A.

//Those that do harm need to feel pain- Pavlov's Dog.//

No, that's what Pavlov's experiments involved. The following summation is from a radio comedy program, and complete bollocks. But it's still a damn sight more more accurate than your 'creative' interpretation of reality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDwHh6Kn8gs

Report from Greece. They just do not know what they can do.

Greece: "Humanitarian Aid" Organization's People-Smuggling.

Emergency Response Centre International (ERCI) describes itself as a "Greek nonprofit organization that provides emergency response and humanitarian aid in times of crisis...." It has reportedly abetted the illegal entry into Greece of 70,000 immigrants since 2015, providing the "nonprofit" with half a billion euros per year.

ECRI evidently received 2,000 euros from each illegal immigrant it helped to enter Greece. In addition, its members created a business for "integrating refugees" into Greek society, granting it 5,000 euros per immigrant per year from various government programs (in education, housing and nutrition).

With the government of Greece seemingly at a loss as to how to handle its refugee crisis and safeguard the security of its citizens, it is particularly dismaying to discover that the major NGO whose mandate is to provide humanitarian aid to immigrants is instead profiting from smuggling them.

On August 28, thirty members of the Greek NGO Emergency Response Centre International (ERCI) were arrested for their involvement in a people-smuggling network that has been operating on the island of Lesbos since 2015. According to a statement released by Greek police, as a result of the investigation that led to the arrests, "The activities of an organised criminal network that systematically facilitated the illegal entry of foreigners were fully exposed."

Among the activities uncovered were forgery, espionage and the illegal monitoring of both the Greek coastguard and the EU border agency, Frontex, for the purpose of gleaning confidential information about Turkish refugee flows. The investigation also led to the discovery of an additional six Greeks and 24 foreign nationals implicated in the case.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/12960/greece-people-smuggling

Con't

Con't Few stats on the criminals

In spite of its stated mission and non-profit profile, however, ECRI -- according to Greek authorities, has earned considerable sums of money from its serving as a conduit for illegal activities. ECRI evidently received 2,000 euros from each illegal immigrant it helped to enter Greece. In addition, its members created a business for "integrating refugees" into Greek society, granting it 5,000 euros per immigrant per year from various government programs (in education, housing and nutrition). ERCI has reportedly abetted the illegal entry into Greece of 70,000 immigrants since 2015, providing the "non-profit" with half a billion euros per year.

This revelation, however, does not begin to cover the extent of the illegal activities surrounding the entry of migrants into Greece. In 2017, for instance, Greek authorities arrested 1,399 people-smugglers, some under the cover of "humanitarian" operations; and during the first four months of 2018, authorities arrested 25,594 illegal immigrants.

More worrisome than the literally steep price paid to people-smugglers by the immigrants themselves -- or that doled out by the Greek government in the form of integration subsidies -- is the toll the situation is taking on Greek society as a whole.

According to Greek police statistics, there were 75,707 robberies and burglaries reported in 2017. Of these cases only 15,048 were solved, and 4,207 were committed by aliens. In addition, the police estimate that more than 40% of serious crimes were committed by illegal immigrants. (Legal and illegal immigrants in Greece make up 10-15% of the total population.)

In 2016, Greek prisons reportedly contained 4,246 Greeks and 5,221 foreigners convicted of serious crimes: 336 for homicide; 101 for attempted homicide; 77 for rape; and 635 for robbery. In addition, thousands of cases are still pending trial.

To Toni Lavis through the chair-

You'll get this but it'll be fun...

This is a sequence 66,86,X,96
What is X?

And I don't think that my views are necessarily all postmodernist but I've come across Martin Heidegger before ... very interesting.

I have tried to keep racism and faith separate in my view the EU and world will reject refugees
No easy task, while I do see this happening ,in part at least for that reason, but after the basic reason, population growth is out of control, faith and race plays a roll
Not hard task for me to claim that, we teach evolution, but let every faith, all in love of phantom God, play too much of a roll in our life/government/culture
Different civilizations have some times, as much trouble living with one another as faith and race
We are seeing that in France a country the proves guests often, because of unchangeable differences,only live in the same poverty they fled home to get away from there is an answer treat faith ,every one of them as a not compulsory thing, do it no favors, pay it no special respect

Belly, you are under the belief that evolution denies faith. Evolution itself is mostly faith based, as it is not observable to most people and is merely accepted by teaching [indoctrination] alone. However development of species in their environment it taught in the Biblical account. I perceive you believe [have faith] evolution is the nail in the coffin of faith based creation because you have been taught it is such.

A denial of faith in a Creator has given us USSR Communism, Mao's China and North Korea, each of who put to death millions merely for belief in a loving Creator God. So your proposal to eradicate race and religion is not going to solve the human problem.

Forgiveness, reconciliation, self sacrifice, caring for ones enemy as one would care for themselves is part of the answer - and all these principles are taught by Christ and applies to all nations. Some religions teach to kill who you imagine is your enemy, even if he does not wish to kill you [example Israel / Jews]. That is stated in the Koran! hence the problem the EU faces.

Phillip S,
Thanks for that info, Let us hope that the AFP has good contacts with Greek police and are fully informed. It surely will pay us to keep a close eye on NGOs here and on the activities of Refugee support mobs in Aus.

Josephus you are one of the worst type of faith follower you believe but seem to also believe your God must have made Islam so you could have some thing to hate.
tell me why did God make or allow other Gods/faiths
What benefit do we get in praying for his/her help after a tragic event not asking why he/she let it happen, that Ark did it get its animals from then unknown country's like ours by air mail.
Why did you God require your followers to mark their doors so he would not murder their children too?

Are the orchestrated refugees part of creation or part of evolution ?

individual my view is we all came out of Africa evolution,, and learned to hate each other because of the changed bought about by the very different places we ended up
Speech color Gods cultur

Dear Belly,

There is currently - more of an inward-looking mentality
among certain Australians. Primarily among voters
who are white, male, working class, and older.
Especially those from regional and rural areas.

We're told by political commentators that these are people
who happen to be the ones feeling the most vulnerable in the
way "the economic fruit has fallen in a globalised market."

In the Scanlon Foundation's
Mapping Social Cohesion Report - it
consistently found more negative attitudes towards
immigration and multi-culturalism among older Australians
and from those outside of capital cities.

Apparently - according to the report -
"There's a lot of fear about
the future and this fear drives some kind of
self protection and a feeling that it "used to be
better" and wanting political leaders to recognise
them and their situation and do something about it."

It was found - that commentators in the US and Europe have
been bandying about a word to describe this political
phenomena: Nativism.

"It's not a matter of racism (you'll often hear people
say you can't be racist against Islam because it's not
a race). This form of discrimination isn't along
biologically racist or ethnic lines, it's more about
intangible concepts such as "culture" and "values."
A sense of "looking after your own backyard" first
and prioritising those who are "already here."

"While the situation in Australia is not identical
to those in the UK, Europe, or the US - the common
thread between them is a matter of economics,
inequality and a slide in the standard of living."

We're told that - it would be easy to dismiss these
people as racists or backwater hicks. But doing that
would be to ignore the underlying problems that pervade
Australia and other Western Democracies that are
currently contending with right-wing personalities
(and the media), tapping into the resentment of foreigners for
their own political gains or agendas.

It's not going to go away anytime soon. Not while there's
political gain to be had and media barons to be supported.

This information was obtained from the following source:

http://www.news.com.au/national/politics/the-politics-of-fear-and-antiimmigration-sentiment/news-story/71544b8defbc80d36e82e47835f62e09

Foxy,

"It's not going to go away anytime soon. Not while there's
political gain to be had and media barons to be supported"

and people who believe in the Koran as the word of Allah.

Foxy,
..tapping into the resentment of foreigners for their own political gains or agendas.

Rather elaborate beating around the bush looking for loopholes kind of post.

Weren't there many Europeans including some Latvians I believe who tapped into such fear to get to Australia ?

The 'tapping' you're inferring is nothing more than a callous leftist exploitative term to stir ideological emotions for ideological indoctrination. Those white, older rural working class men are not, repeat not so insipid as to think in those terms. That mentality is in much better company among the pseudo-academic confused sex outfits.
Had you ever had to work for your living in the hot/cold wet outdoors like these simpledoms as you'd like to call them were you not bound by your own PC, you would have a better understanding of what it means to prevent losing everything you toiled for just because some ideologists don't have the sense to comprehend what's in the making. The ideologist are in fact pouring petrol onto the fire !

Indy,

The Baltic people were invited by Arthur Calwell into
this country to help solve an acute labour shortage
in Australia, especially in outlying areas.
These facts are acknowledged in
the history books - and the contributions that they
made. BTW - I'm not Latvian.

I know who I am. What you are saying about me is incorrect.
And,
My information is based on the link that I gave.
If you have different
facts - you're quite entitled to provide them and
disprove what's being said.

Indy,

It may interest you to know that my family network
encompasses five generations of Australians from
English, Scottish, Irish, Swedish, German, Lithuanian, and
Belo-Russian ancestry. And, quite a few of them were stud-farmers
in Quirindi and Kempsey NSW for generations. Others lived and
worked up North. None of us got off the boat yesterday.
Many were born in this country. Not counting our children
and grandchildren. And, we are ALL Australians!

Foxy, What one brain washed socialist believes, in an endeavour to discredit those concerned about those Muslims males filled with fear for their lives fleeing Muslim infighting. They actually believe in murdering each other upholding the Koran, that is what informed Westerners believe. We believe that because they practise Koranic law.

They live in ghettos and do not integrate into society as most other immigrants do. If you do not have an honest fear for your children's future under Islam you are ignorant of the system. Go live under Islamic laws in a country these men are fleeing to know the consequences. My closest friend lived in Saudi Arabia for six years, my nephew works in Afghanistan and has seen it all. Know the people who actually hate the West, and want to make it Islamic.

Dear Josephus,

I totally agree that we should all be fearful of
fundamentalists and extremists.

As far as immigration to
Australia is concerned? We do have
strict requirements that all immigrants have to meet.
Depending under what circumstances they are applying to
be accepted here.

'I totally agree that we should all be fearful of
fundamentalists and extremists.'

especially gw alarmist, feminist/Marxist and Islamic extremist. They are by far the most dangerous.

Banjo - Some of the ngo's are certainly something to be concerned about especially those financed by Soros.

Last few posts need addressing, first I too am forever opposed to radical Islam, *demand that faith be bought in to this century*
I too am opposed to any radical, left or right.
The are no definite,s ever
No one side is all right or all wrong, if we want to progress it will not be people like Josephus we should follow, he is a radical, my way or no way radical.
Humanity must look for a middle path one most on every side can live with.
My constant reminder I have or believe in no God, is not to taunt, but in my view point out the first and best step for humanity becoming one

Belly,

"Humanity must look for a middle path one most on every side can live with."

Islam will never be within your "most" can live with.

The followers of Muhammad are bent on world conquest and will never live at peace with the rest of humanity until that conquest is complete.

Belly, name calling is easy, calling me a "radical", no wonder your world is falling apart because you cannot accept people of faith. Atheism which you prefer, is just as radical as demonstrated by the old USSR, China and North Korea etc, who have murdered tens of millions.

I am happy to be a radical if it means protecting my family and the sane future of this country.

Belly said- "I too am opposed to any radical, left or right. The are no definite,s ever No one side is all right or all wrong, if we want to progress it will not be people like Josephus we should follow, he is a radical, my way or no way radical. Humanity must look for a middle path one most on every side can live with. My constant reminder I have or believe in no God, is not to taunt, but in my view point out the first and best step for humanity becoming one"

Answer-

When the middle path has been relabeled as extreme- we must become extreme.

When the law is unjust- heros must become outlaws. Zorro.

Conservative Social policy has been labeled as extreme. Progressive Social policy has taken Australia to the precipice- now the only choice is war or oblivion.

This is what Britain is facing with a Labor Government.

http://www.facebook.com/100006000647636/videos/858316897711657/?t=207

//The followers of Muhammad are bent on world conquest and will never live at peace with the rest of humanity until that conquest is complete.//

Everybody wants to rule the world, Is Mise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGCdLKXNF3w

//When the middle path has been relabeled as extreme- we must become extreme.

When the law is unjust- heros must become outlaws. Zorro.

Conservative Social policy has been labeled as extreme. Progressive Social policy has taken Australia to the precipice- now the only choice is war//

Why don't all you cranky old Tories band together in a militia and march off to war then? Should be a highly amusing spectacle for the rest of us... I imagine it will be like a live action version of the South Park episode 'Grey Dawn'.

Dear Toni Lavis,

For some in this discussion - it seems that they want
the "good old days" returned.

Here's just a reminder of those days:

A Pom fresh off the plane at Sydney airport is trying to
negotiate Australian customs. Finally when its his turn to
get his passport stamped - the customs officer starts
to rattle off the usual questions -

CO: How long do you intend to stay?
POM: 1 week.
CO: What's the nature of this trip?
POM: Business.
CO: Do you have any past criminal offences?
POM: I didn't think we still needed to!

Toni,

Not my sort of music but I do like the car.

Tony Lavis seeds of change exist I have great hope for us all, I find it in this morning SMH the Tony Abbott story, his own party it now seems may have voted only 55 percent in support of him,it has been said this will be the last time he is selected to run for them, that he may even have already lost his seat.
Climate change same sex weddings only two of the things his voters do not like about him, his electorate voted in the 70,s for it.
Mid terms, the list is long just maybe the very right have breathed new life in to progressives, *think about that! how ever did progress become a dirty word?*

Belly,
progress became a dirty word after the Leftists hijacked the term & began using it to describe their failures.

Dear Belly,

Franklin D. Roosevelt described a "Progressive," as
a person who uses their legs and hands at the command
of their head. Whereas a "Conservative," as someone
with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never
learned how to walk forward. ;-)

Phillip S,
Not just from your report from Greece, but there is also reports from other places alleging that NGO staff are involved in 'kiddy fiddling' in refugee camps.

Foxy,
There's another example of Progressive vs Conservative.
Quite a number of years ago a conservative treasurer in Australia put several billion Dollars into a futures fund then, along came a progressive one & presto, the money was gone !

To Toni Lavis through the chair- How did you go with the sequence? Did you find the value of X?

Indy,

The money was gone because the conservative in order
to get money - cut everything in sight and made a huge
mess. The Progressive had to fix things and make them
better - hence the money had to be spent. And you're
blaming the progressive for fixing things?

Again how did progress and progressives become a dirty word?
Too how in Australia, a country known to take down fools, did Trump Americas worst ever leader get a fan club?
What will that fan club think/say when the fall of Trump, as it must, drives him from the white house maybe even in to prison?

//How did you go with the sequence? Did you find the value of X?//

It's L6, because there's no 'upside down 7' button on my keyboard.

For the Trump haters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qHoOYkDmQQ

The haters prefer the rise of Sharia, to live on welfare and drain taxpayers to house illegal immigrants. The progressives just believe in change for change sake, this once great free Christian values Nation in their mind is outdated they prefer Shariah and it enforcement; because it is different.

The Progressive had to fix things and make them
better - hence the money had to be spent.
Foxy,
Is that so ? Why then did they get voted out for doing such a great job ? Even hard Labor Belly will tell you that Govts are voted out not in.
That conservative mess you're referring to is now sorely missed by those who relied on their pension & Super.

Josephus,
That's reality, that's not what the Leftists want to see ?

Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 18 September 2018 7:46:36 AM-
"It's L6, because there's no 'upside down 7' button on my keyboard."

Answer- Well Done! Knew you could get it. :)

Indy,

One lot makes a mess, by not taking care of the problems.
The other lot tries to fix the mess - by spending. Then
they get accused of wasting money and get thrown out.
We'll now have to wait and see which lot will convince
the voters that they're fixing our problems. They'll be
the ones who'll get voted in. Why do you think Morrison
is promising so much currently. But will he keep his promises
is another question. And so the cycle of politics goes on.

Not brain surgery. We have a long history of this.

Josephus much like the followers of Hanson you and Trump supporters see the answer to your biases in him.
In fact they both use you to gather what is to them the only truly important thing money.
Midterms are coming get ready to explain why America was wrong to reject him, too watch Hanson's vote out side Queensland sink out of sight

But will he keep his promises
is another question.
Foxy,
Will the opposition give him a fair go to achieve his promises ?

Trump *making America Hate again* a conspiracy within a conspiracy the man is about to have a slow down after the mid terms

Indy,

I'm sure that Labor will support all good policies.
To not support - they'd do so at their own peril.

To not support - they'd do so at their own peril.
Foxy,
Off the mark again as per your standard. It's at OUR peril, not theirs. They still get paid excessively with our tax dollars for what in return ?
These people in authority need to wake up & acquire some integrity. The average voter neds to follow suit !

indy let me say this, the upcoming election of a Labor government will not see the DEVIL win,you are old mate a victim, over night a truth most know was put in the spotlight a very little ex Australian, and an equally small current Australian, both media barons,have been caught using influence to remove Turnbull.
The conspiracy is they convince people like you electing a caring government is wrong
That is not unusual, informed people know, the very rich want to influence even own government.
False slanted news, far from Trumps fake news, this time true is a tool used to get support from voters to prop up their wanted out comes in elections, Labor has always been the party of reform, and will govern well

I watched SBS news last night and noted they only give half news stories; according to them Trump imposed more tariffs on Chinese goods, they did not report that it excluded high technical equipment. So they promote bias against trump, while American workers are again getting employment and developing their own industries.

Australia has sold most of its manufacturing to China for cheap labour, and closed down our industries. I know because the company I worked for dismissed 21 workers and imported from China to survive against other companies importing from China.

the upcoming election of a Labor government will not see the DEVIL win,you are old mate a victim,
Belly,
I am old enough to have experienced Labor Governments & policies several times & everytime they were at the helm thwheels went way more wobbly than when the Conservatives were in. That in no way implies that I'm in agreement with the LNP policies as they are presently on the contrary, they're as bad as Labor's. My only hope is that Morrison can pull through despite all the sabotage flung at him. He needs to really address Welfare/Centrelink & asset testing asap or silly, nilly willy Billy will have his job.

The Coalition at present has so many internal problems
that for Mr Morrison to be able to achieve anything
at all is going to be extremely difficult to say the
least. Unless the State Branches of the Party can possibly
find new and fresher candidates to stand -
the old "die-hards"
are going to continue ruining the Party. It's time for many
of these "die-hards" to retire - and give the Party a better
sense of direction with which voters could identify.

Foxy,
I couldn't agree more that's why Morrison needs OUR support.

After Labor wins the election, Bill Shortens polling will improve dramatically, because of policy's he introduces.
The roof will not fall, unless it is on the henny penny's of the right

Indy,

What Morrison needs is to prove himself first
before he gets OUR support. He's got to show
US that he's worthy of support - and is not
doing the same-old-same-old strategies. Then
nothing will change.

Ahh Belly, you are talking of conspiracy by newspaper proprietors,
but that report itself is a conspiracy.
Turnbull was turfed because his own members didn't want him. Simple !

It is like the report about Abbott's nomination.
The papers even printed that he only lust got 50% before the result
was known. Turned out it was 70%.

Foxy, I do not think you can be sure that Labour will adopt good policies.
So far he is proposing 50% energy emission reductions.
That will absolutely require Liddell to close, and one or two others as well.
No way that that can be considered good policy.
He will have to cut the greens loose to avoid that.

Foxy,
So you don't believe in "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your Country".

Indy,

I've always liked that quote (among many others)
from the American President John F. Kennedy.

And it is exactly the point that I was trying to
make. Our politicians should be concerned about
what THEY can do for our country. After all they
are OUR representatives. And they should DO more
than just rhetoric. They need to have actions
backed by good policies - not just slogans backed
by nothing more than words.

Bazz,

Both Parties need to come up with good policies
in order to get the voters on side. Voters are
no longer satisfied with just empty words.
Interesting times ahead.

Foxy how true, America has fallen a long way recently and some doubt exists they will get back on track trust youth trust the mid terms

Foxy,
Politician deserve flak because most of them have not got the mentality for what it means to care for others & work in with people who do care but are shackled by policies.
Voters too are only out for themselves many even worse than the pollies.
The average voter expects far too much & when they don't get their grubby little hands on what they expect then they turn against the politicians for not delivering.
Ask the average voter what they think about a National service for 18-21 year olds ? I bet even here on OLO most would be against it. Why ? Because they'd have to do something for their own future but they expect others to provide.
How about asking able-bodied refugees to help their country to get back on its feet with help from the host countries ? Do you really think even just one hand would be raised in favour of it ?
No ! Why not ? Because going back would mean giving up on their real agenda.

Indy,

I shall repeat what I've posted previously so many
times on this forum. It's taken from Peter Costello's
Memoirs:

"...politics for all its rough edges , is a civilised
and civilising calling. Despite all the obloquy shovelled
on the head of politicians , they are men and women who
work the machinery of liberal democratic way of life. They
reflect public opinion - and at their best lead public opinion
and transmute it into laws that shape our society and our
country... we do have unresolved problems that we need to fix.
I have no doubt that we will find solutions that suit us -...
provided that we do not succumb to the siren calls of
demagogues,charlatans, and ideologues."

Foxy,
that's all very nice, what did he have to say about the orchestrated refugee situation ?

individual one of lifes truths, in fact a few are unpleasant but true.
No political party that ever existed or will, cannot please every one.
Second and worth your attention, some times what we think they should do is nothing more than our view, shared by few
PROPAGANDA is a tool from every party and it is powered by self interest and that school yard wish to tell teacher [voters] one side of the storey.
Right now truth is becoming a rare bird, in every western country.
As Government struggle to get things done a game is in play, blame some one else, use every tool hate lie xenophobia, to take voters eyes away from truth/them
See it works!

Belly,
Precisely, that's why I wrote this in my earlier post.

The average voter expects far too much & when they don't get their grubby little hands on what they expect then they turn against the politicians for not delivering.

Well Belly you were right about a conspiracy about the removal of the
PM Turnbull.
That story was a conspiracy by the ABC to blame Murdock and the
West Aust newspaper boss. It came unstuck in a big way.

The ABC is so left wing that any event has to be conspiracy if it is
not one of theirs.

Any way Turbull resigned when he won by such a small margin.
So he dismissed himself.

Bazz,
At least the Coalition knows when to ged rid of a dud, only three more to go. Is the ALP following suit ?

Bazz crap! that story is true every word, know that WA man tried to keep Turnbull as PM Stokes is his name.
He gave much of the information about the whole event to one of this country's best political reporters.
ABC is not left even that tragic rag the Australian has reported the true story and it is the flagship of the very demented dwarf named as leader of the pack.
Worth noting, opinion based on ignoring the truth are self destroying

You confuse me Belly.
Now you are saying Stokes wanted to keep Turnbull !
Make up your mind.
The story was a beatup by the ABC.
They are well practised at it, but this one was not researched properly.

Bazz,

The following may be of interest:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018/09/18/liberal-leadership-spill-rupert-murdoch-kerry-stokes-influence/10262552

73,s Bazz look let me tell you I can find plenty to be alarmed about in my party the next government.
TRUTH however is the only measure I value
Head shaking stuff that you seem to think your words are true.
Read a bit, learn that the right of reality are fueled on lies
For example, unlikely to be seen from Conservative posts, one of my party's faults
You can not cross the floor and vote with the other side in my mob.
That fact stopped honest men and women demanding a particularly filthy vermin known as Eddy O bead being exposed near ten years before he was, take the challenge read about just how false you words are

Foxy, a whole lot of people running around clucking about Malcolm has
to go and others saying how marvelous he is and should stay.
Where the rubber hits the road, the members of the parliamentary party
have to live or die by what they say, so what outsiders say do or
threaten makes no difference they vote for their own survival.

None of them would sacrifice themselves for Rupert or anyone else.
Take no notice of the ABC, they are a player in the game.
I read that link, and it just confirms it.
Ultimately Malcolm lost the support of his fellow members and the most
honorable thing he did was to take the hint and resign.

His position became intolerable when his NEG collapsed and it would
not have mattered what Rupert said he was finished anyway.

Bazz in you case knowing what a great person you have been in the service of our hobby it hurts.
Not that you have a different opinion.
But that your opinion is not based on any real evidence even in the end truth.
Murdock, a man like his father that gets deeply involved in politics, find a falsehood/lie/ untrue statement in my words here.
His dad had politicians, very very prominent ones, stand at his desk in his Adelaide office hat in hand and call him Sir
Rupert installed the Whitlam Government,be sure about it he did, he then uninstalled them, *with the help of a drunk Governor General* and some Ministers in that government*
Continued

That uninstall process saw Murdocks news paper staff go on strike! because they did not agree with his extremely slanted reporting.
Murdock put New Labor in power in England, as his scandal sheet the Sun screamed in the morning after headlines *it was us that done it* Tony Blair owned both his rise and his fall, to, well getting a little too close to Rupert's child bride, but mostly because your SAINT Rupert wanted him gone.
Politics on either side should not be bought and paid for by any one.
Now Rupert flew directly to Canberra a week later his party, bought and paid for, tried to put Dutton on the throne, the one with Rupert,s strings on.the ease that Murdock managed the phone tapping scandal in England screams of influence surely?
This story we differ over is quite true, no ABC invention, and it should frighten you as much as it frightens me, it is rumored if Shorten was to be replaced your knight in shining armor may very well make a startling change in his current position on his private monoply board game we know as politics

Polling showed Turnbull had steered his party to a
respectable position - 49% to Labor's 51. Turnbull
had also consistently been the preferred PM over
Shorten. Internally party hacks like Abbott and Dutton
promoted that the Libs had "alienated their base" by
elevating a "moderate" like Turnbull. Then of course
the chipping continued by the likes of Ray Hadley,
Alan Jones, Andrew Bolt, NewsCorps and Sky News Peta
Credlin, and papers like the Daily Telegraph, Herald
Sun, The Australian - under the directives of Rupert
Murdoch - they all played an influential part.
Turnbull acknowledged this in his farewell speech
as did Alan Jones on Q&A. (he'd even admitted to
privately contacting - MPs to influence them).

As Turnbull stated it was "madness!"

To get this thread back on track the Eiffel Tower, perhaps now best
called Eiffel Castle has upset many locals because of the walls and
concrete blocks surrounding the iconic tower.

Just heard that Poland is now considering a referendum to leave the
European Union. This is the result of threats by the EU commission to
impose penalties on Poland for refusing the demanded number of immigrants.

The French politician Marine le Pen is to be forced to a take a
psychiatric examination because she posted three videos of ISIS
beheading prisoners, one being the journalist James Foley.
She has stated that she will not participate in this Soviet Russian
technique of dealing with dissident citizens.
The purpose of the examination is to ascertain if she is mentally ill
and able to withstand trial.
Stalin is alive and well !

Vive la France Fraternity etc etc

I wonder how many Members of our Parliament
would pass a psychiatric evaluation - beginning
with party hacks like - Abbott, Dutton, Kevin
Andrews, and their ilk? It might be worth trying
and quite revealing!

Bazz then you will also have seen, try the Arab news paper this date, al JAZ,, know I can not spell the rest.
An offshore detention center is proposed much like Australia's, only it would float
Now both sides will jump on me over this so let me be honest.
Yes in part the EU is rejecting refugees because [truth matters] Muslims do not always integrate well.
But in any case the EU will not/can not forever take the huge numbers, even if they had all been Christians.
The world, in the next two decades, will be very much harder to get in to for refugees, if a war comes, always likely, refugees will increase massively but still not be able to enter most country's.

Correction; It was only one beheading, since removed on family request.
One was the burning alive in a cage of a Jordanian pilot and the third
was a prisoner being run over by a tank.
These types of bizarre executions are a specialty of Isis.

Another National Rally lawmaker, lawyer Gilbert Collard, has also been
charged for tweeting pictures of IS atrocities.

Foxy, trying to soften it all up are we ?
That really did you no service.

Bazz,

Not at all. Just stating some observations.
As you are.

cont'd ...

But why are you concentrating only on what
is undoubtedly the behaviour of terrorist
groups?

Why are you giving them a platform - and spreading
more fear ? Fundamentalists and extremists do
unspeakable things - do we need to have them
discussed on public forums over and over again ?
To what end?

I certainly does not do you any credit.

Because many do not want to know and prefer to ignore it all.
They do not understand that there is a war in progress and if too many
want to just hope it goes away, well it won't, and we will find our
own country being like Europe, slowly submitting to Islam and Sharia Law.

I don't think that with such a small
percentage of our population belonging
to that group - this is or will be a
problem.

Australia is not the UK (nor it's clone)
and you need to stop comparing us to other
countries. We have done things differently
here and will continue to do so.

We are a diverse, varied and generally peaceful
nation that has by and large successfully
differentiated itself from other nations and part
of that success is because of multiculturalism.

Bazz may well not be fond of me, we differ on so much but in truth he is a bright man, far brighter than some things he posts here.
We will NEVER EVER have sharia law in this country Islam/Muslims are never EVER going to be in numbers big enough to controls us.
Their children,, like the children of every wave of migration, will in time assimilate.
In fact many already have,even rejecting the faith of their parents.
A war will be fought, much bigger much more intense, against radial Islam.
Islam will not win that war, changes may even come in that faith.
While the very lost, very right of reality throws chum in the waters, racial hate fear of difference, other bigger things get under our guard, consider who truly is hiding what from us behind the racist curtains?

Looks like some Muslims are pushing for more.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6191963/Muslims-push-two-Australian-public-holidays-Eid-want-day-taken-seriously.html

Muslims in Australia are asking for two public holidays for their two annual Eid celebrations.

A petition has been submitted to the Parliament of Australia asking for Eid Ul-Fitr and Eid Al Adha to be publicly recognized.

The petition says the Muslim community would like more time to celebrate. Thus far it has 2,468 signatures and is expected to be presented on October 15.

'The community feels they need more time to celebrate and want it recognized within the wider community,' the petition says.

The public holiday would fall on the Mondays following Eid Ul-Fitr and Eid Al Adha.

They also want the celebrations be recognized by the wider Australian community - not just people who follow Islam.

The Eid-al-Fitr is one of only two major festivals in the Islamic faith and sees Muslims give money to the poor and needy as an obligatory act of charity.

Dear Phillip,

Not going to happen.

We are a Secular State - and nobody is going to open that
Pandora's box. Where would it end?

Nope. They can ask all they want - not going to happen!

Foxy,

I don't think that with such a small
percentage of our population belonging
to that group - this is or will be a
problem"

Been to Lakemba or Bankstown (NSW) lately?

Is Mise,

I live in Melbourne.

And I work alongside people of various cultures
and religions -
in the aged-care facility where I volunteer
weekly. No problems whatsoever.

cont'd ...

I should also add that our neighbourhood is
made up of a wide mix of different cultures.
And we all get along just fine. In fact, more
than fine. My husband was hospitalised recently
and all the neighbours offered help and got
involved. It was quite lovely to have such genuine,
caring people nearby and as neighbours.

Belly,

"Their children,, like the children of every wave of migration, will in time assimilate.
In fact many already have,even rejecting the faith of their parents."

Just as they do in India, been a thousand years or so and today there are more Muslim women getting around in head to toe black coverings than there were two years ago and there were then more than my visit three years before.
They are being told to be seen to be Muslim.

Now there's assimilation in action.

My first ancestors in Australia were Scots and many of their descendants, including myself, still wear their distinctive dress, listen to the same music and have the same politico/historical viewpoint; most of them still follow the same religion (not incl moi) and marry into the same tribal group, Celts tend to marry Celts., as I did also.

The extreme right exists, it feeds on lies and fears, it names words like progress/progressives far left
It is often powered by totally wrong words such as Trump use, it is in fact conned by its own leadership.
If any left behaved that way it would be laughed at.
Read SMH story about the right in this mornings press, it is very much worth the read.
A middle path is the only path worth treading, if that story and the one Abbott gets unmasked in by his own members, also in that paper this morning is true the ultra right may be marching in circles going no place

//Muslims in Australia are asking for two public holidays for their two annual Eid celebrations.//

I do hope they get them.... I don't care about their religious significance any more than I care about the religious significance of Easter. It's all bollocks.

But I do like a public holiday. And why shouldn't we have more of them? I hardly think that two extra public holidays a year is going to cripple our productivity.

Toni,

I go the other way, abolish all religious based holidays, as well as religious exemptions for working certain days.

Well Foxy and Belly what you both say is a very common attitude.
It also was said in Europe that it would never happen.
"There is only 2% muslims, it will never happen !"

"We do not need to invade Europe, in 50 tears it will be Islamic
by the power of our women's wombs" Gaddafi & the Imman of Morocco.

However just like in the UK it will be a creeping invasion.
Sharia courts are recognised by the real courts.
In the UK you cannot criticise Islam without a risk of being
investigated by police. There are people who have been sentenced to
a period in gaol for "Islamaphobia". We do not have such an offence
here yet but what I write here would definitely be an offense in the UK.

Canada is another country that has started down the same track and
has recently introduced legislation that protects Islam from criticism.

I suggest that you start looking at what is happening in Europe.
You suggest that the next generation will be different.
Again another misconception, it is the 2nd generation that is more
radicle, take the Bil Al gang for instance.
True many do not become radicle, but they will support demands for
sharia compliant laws, multiple wives, sharia divorce laws etc.

It is no secret it is all out there to be seen

Bazz you are about my age, probably lead a different life, mine was often with migrants.
But I remember Greek and Italian kids, just children, shouting they would take over this country.
I remember the words we called them.
How people, good people, thought they would take us over too, or just hated them because they happened to be different.
America took many of its refugees and migrants long before the war, long enough before for their children to fight in that war, for America.
Remember that America? send me your poor and down trodden? what has changed?
Well Islam, you fear it, even I do not like its separatism within our country.
BUT it will never take over this country, we can hope *as seems to be the wish of some invisible to us yet power* that demands we become one world one people,but it will not happen.
But that effort to be like us will come from the children and grand child of today's migrants, for sure and certain most are not to be feared

Dear Bazz,

Perhaps the following link might appease
your fears:

http://www.humanrights.gov.au/news/speeches/success-australia-s-multiculturalism

It explains why Australia is different from Europe regarding
multiculturalism - especially in the realm of policy.
In many countries immigration occurred without planning.
But that was not the case in Australia. A well-ordered
immigration program has ensured public acceptance of
cultural diversity - it has under-pinned the cultural
generosity of Australian society. There are very important
differences between what Europeans have called multiculturalism
and what we in Australia have called multiculturalism.
Especially in the realm of policy.

//I go the other way, abolish all religious based holidays//

Bah, humbug.

Let us hopes some ghosts visit you in your sleep to show you the error of your ways.

No one should get a holiday because of religion.
Believers, if it is really serious day to them, could take the day off, without pay, if they are so inclined.
Non-believers have no entitlement to a religious holiday, if they are unbelievers, then they take the paid day off under false pretences.

I never met a Commo unionist who would forgo penalty rates for working on a religious baseed public holiday..

//Believers, if it is really serious day to them, could take the day off, without pay, if they are so inclined.
Non-believers have no entitlement to a religious holiday, if they are unbelievers, then they take the paid day off under false pretences.//

Yeah, but Tories still get a paid holiday on Labour Day. And republicans get a paid holiday for Her Majesty's birthday.

I kind of get the impression that you're just against public holidays in general. Although I can't imagine why. Some people are just miserable buggers, I guess.

Toni,

"I kind of get the impression that you're just against public holidays in general. Although I can't imagine why. Some people are just miserable buggers, I guess."

I'm not against public holidays, just religious based ones; there is no justification in a secular society to have religious holidays.

Is Mise can not but agree in this, if we every one of us, care to look we will see a faith, one of the three, born in just a small area of the middle east, is the reason some want an end to migration.
Those faiths are, [strange but true] from this small area and? closely related to each other, the children of Abraham are today's Muslims, Christian and Jews are the other two.
Refusing to believe God visited only that small area of what we are told is his creation, re-enforces my view faith, not race, is holding humanity back,
If the concerns Islam is taking our country over why are those people who are concerned about it watching Chinese migrates who are in much bigger numbers and buying our country?

Dear Belly,

Our part of Melbourne has been allowed to develop
high-rise apartment buildings that are really
horrible - tiny, boxes, one on top of the other.
Inside there's barely room to swing a cat.
It's Chinese money - and most of them end up being
put up "for lease." It spoils the entire neighbourhood's
appearance. Yet the Council allows it - these blocks
are income earners (rates) for the Council. Building
standards have been dropped to accommodate these
foreign investments. And their money does not stay in
our country.

Foxy money controls not the best interests of people, it is interesting Melbourne once seemed, despite the rivalry with my city Sydney, to be more livable than a badly neglected Sydney,we too have seen that massive money buy a whole suburb and it will, while slowing down continue.
In the end my view remains we will live well together as the past migrations prove.
It would be interesting to know the back ground of posters ,just how many generations of us have been here and what country's we came from

Foxy,

Melbourne's "Vertical Slums" started back in the 1960s, I remember visiting migrant friends who were living in one and I was appalled at the smallness of the rooms and the general low quality, and it wasn't Chinese money back then.

//there is no justification in a secular society to have religious holidays.//

Of course there is. People really, really like Christmas. Even the non-Christian ones.

Also, banning Christmas? You know who else did that? Bloody Cromwell. Oh, and Her Imperial Majesty Jadis, Queen of Narnia. But she's fictional. Look, I realize that playing the Cromwell card is basically the same thing as playing the Nazi card... but I feel it's justified. Banning Christmas is a dick move, which is why it's always wrong'uns like Cromwell and the White Witch that want to do it.

Thirdly, do you have any idea how much economic havoc would be wreaked on the retail sector? I mean, just for that reason alone it's a spectacularly bad idea.

And finally, why the hell shouldn't a secular society be allowed to 'culturally appropriate' Christmas off the Christians? They culturally appropriated it off cultures that came before them... Christmas isn't so much a religious celebration as an astronomical one observing the December solstice. And astronomy is secular. QED, now pass the turkey.

Tony not joking, save the holidays, Christmas after all came to us other than via Christ,
We can increase them even, and make extra jobs by doing it.
We will need to do some thing about increasing numbers and decreasing jobs, so why not?

Good things only happen if you take action.

Usually those that say "everything will be ok- because it's always been ok" are doing so for there own interest.

Only you are going to protect your own interest- there is always going to be people that find cracks in the system to exploit- we need to go to war against such people- lock them up- and make sure that they will fear their traitorous intentions. Take the business owners that try to undermine the Australian workers and lock them up and take their assets and those of their families so they lose their position in society. Why do people attack society?- successful children, money, power- that's what society needs to take away in order to protect itself from traitors. Only then will the greedy be loyal.

The proportion of foreign ownership of our land represents the proportion to which Australian wealth has been decimated under immigration. Business does not have a mandate over Australia- the Australian people do.

If you don't act you will die.

CM not much to disagree with in that.
But she will be right mate rules.
Would go on to talk about apathy but just can not be bothered.
No doubt you know, in any group social or work based, only some fully engage, leaving the few to get it done
self interest may well be the reason governments do not, truly go to war with drugs

Probably had its run this thread but as it develops we will talk about it again.
Nothing ever stays the same Sydney this morning is in the news its state leader and others, for some time, [Bob Carr warned us] is over crowded.
85.000 new arrivals came there just last year from over seas.
Now it is being pushed new arrivals rather than add to the over crowding, be settled in rural Australia
Sydney is my city, but the best thing about a visit is leaving it, it is well on the way to becoming a slum city it seems to have lost its heart
That should highlight why the EU will shut its doors and in my mind is reason shifting the population around is not the answer birth control is however,,for all races

Belly,

Birth control is part of the answer but it will only come about when there is a good financial/support scheme in place for people as they age.

In many countries the only way to provide for old age is to have plenty of children.

Belly said "But she will be right mate rules."

Answer- Thanks for the feedback Belly. Ironic that this comment is from an era where we did have more self sufficiency as a nation. Some of the comments from this era should perhaps make a come back.

Is Mise true, but do not hold your breath waiting for things to change.
Some times I feel we are walking a track some one has set out for humanity and if we knew we would rebel
Answers to over population hunger and bitter wars based on differences in faith surely a group named United Nations could fix.
Just maybe they are too busy marking out that trail for us, so when dictatorship comes some will call it peace.
CM though the chair,what a great idea how long has it been sense you heard *fair go mate*

Dear Belly,

For things to change - and "she'll be right, mate,"
to happen we need enormous changes. I don't really
see that happening any time soon. Here we have a
Prime Minister who has campaigned in the past to
give the banks a tax cut, cut billions from schools,
cut millions from local hospitals, cut penalty rates
and the pension, advocated raising the pension age to
70 and voted against the Banking Royal Commission 26
times.

Therefore do we have a desirable PM? A Pentecostal PM
who fingered coal in Parliament, opposed gay marriage,
demeaned those on welfare as the "taxed nots," called for
Australia's withdrawal from the Refugee Convention,
incited a riot on Manus Island which resulted in the
death of Reza Barati, falsely claimed Save the Children
staff coached asylum seekers to self-harm on Nauru,
papered over the bullying allegations inside his own
party ... and the list goes on.

Then on the other side of the coin - it takes a special
kind of cringe worthy mediocrity to be less popular than
the Coalition mob and a uniquely limp brand of leadership to
be less desirable then them.

Hopefully, things will start to change prior to the elections.
But I wouldn't hold my breadth. Neither major party is looking
too great at the moment.

Foxy my bias may be showing, if so it has completely taken over my mind.
But I can not see how failing the aged, selling our education system to profiteers, cuts to health, a host of issues while donating near half a billion dollars to a private company to look after the barrier reef,can see this government returned.
I have faith, if elected Bill Shorten, after much new legislation is passed, will be at least for a while both a good and popular PM.
I fear ,as it was last time, Labor will enter government just before a global financial crisis, that, again, will see voters blame us
she will be right was always wrong, it was an excuse to do nothing

Dear Belly,

I have no doubt that the Liberal Party will lose
the next election. However, I'm not too fond
of Bill Shorten. I admit I am biased as far as he's
concerned. We shall have to wait and see what really
drives that man and what policies he has to offer.

Foxy once you would get hero worship from me at the mention of his name, to be quite honest until he got the leadership, Mark Latham would have too.
Latham lost me weeks in to his leadership, he was the invention of my party desperate to find a good and great man, they found the opposite, I woke up to him long before.
Simon Crean, loved his dad, put him in Latham's bucket, Bill, this is the time my party demands I retreat,put that filthy foul rug they call solidarity [truly only a tool to force us not to have opinions]
Over my head and stay silent.
Bill is not the man I knew, his party is brilliant, the team I think is going to some times carry us to great heights
Foxy in time a leader as great as Bill once was will come, Bill leads a great team, we will be well served

Dear Belly,

Thank You for being so fair and honest.

We need a strong government who cares about this
country and all of its people - I think that
today most Australians are going to be looking very
carefully at what's being promised. I'm not wanting
to judge anyone too harshly at this stage - the
next months will hopefully show us the choices that
we have.

Foxy you may well be the ideal voter for my party or any one, to hear.
My wants and wishes include for a man who like Whitlam, the very top, Hawk and yes Rudd, are true statesmen, maybe that leader will be a woman, right now she would nearly need to be as good as two of those greats, just to rise to the top in a country not yet ready to be honest about sexual biases.
we can not forever tread water in the mud like thing our parliament is, we must find true states people to bring us back to being a country that cares for every one.

Dear Belly,

I'm still optimistic that there are good men and
women who work the machinery of our democratic
way of life. Who reflect public opinion and
at their best lead public opinion - and transmute
it into laws that shape our society and our country.
I was listening to Dr Kerryn Phelps the other
evening on TV - and wish her all the best in the
upcoming by-election for Wentworth.

I wish that Labor had a good well known candidate for
my electorate of Menzies here in Victoria. We have
Kevin Andrews - it's a safe Liberal seat. How I wish
that this man got kicked out well and truly. He's been
in this seat for over 26 years. Unfortunately,
the candidates that Labor puts up to run against him -
are unknowns - and therefore guarantee success for
Andrews every time. It's a shame.

If Bill gets in at the next election it will mean more illegal entrants by boat or any other way, more welfare, more taxes upon the workers to pay for his promises. More sell off of Australian industry and land to overseas buyers, following in the footsteps of the great Whitlam team [not!].

There was only ever one great Labor PM and that was Ben Chifley. All the others ever cared for were the unemployed and unemployable. Watch what happens to illegal entrants after 2019.

Josephus,

There were more illegal entrants under the Liberal
governments - arriving by plane (and still are)
and overstaying their visas.

Get real.

cont'd ...

Also we've got a man as PM who in the past
campaigned to give banks a $17 billion tax cut,
who cut funding from schools, and millions from
local hospitals, who cut penalty rates and the
pension, advocated raising the pension age to 70
and voted against the Banks Royal Commission 26
times.

A man who's papered over bullying allegations
inside his own party - and much more.

And you're criticising Labor?

Josephus let me tell you a few truths, while I am both PROGRESSIVE and Liberal in the American meaning of that word I and my party are not leftist.
Other than left of this far from Liberal government.
It is true Rudd/Gillard let good intentions kill good policy, and we know it.
The boats came as a result, and we know that.
We introduced offshore detention, in our last year in office.
We would never dare let them return, and you should know that.
WE DID offer a better way,the Malaysian solution,Conservatives rejected it.
It would have stopped the boats, stopped refugee flows thought out Asia,
Conservatives said it was too cruel, so they turned the detention centers in to concentration camps.
A Labor government should pursue it again, and let NZ take the detainees.

Dear Belly,

It was the current PM who called for Australia's
withdrawal from the Refugee Convention, who incited a
riot on Manus Island which resulted in the death of
Reza Banati, he falsely claimed Save the Children staff
coached asylum seekers to self-harm on Nauru, and so on.

We can hope that now as PM his attitudes will improve.

Foxy in every difficult issue no one side ever gets every thing it wants.
EVER
So what would be a good result if both parties stopped using the issue as clubs and sat down to fix it?
It is my view voters play a role, they want the boats stopped, not all voters but enough to win or not win elections
So after, not before, a new answer is put in place find homes for every one in offshore detention NZ seems willing.
get the Malaysian solution back, if not in that country one nearby.
underline *every new arrival will be sent there* as close to the day after as possible*
try to get every nearby nation to join in, serving their interests as well as ours, increase selected migrant intake.
Take the politics out of it with some thing both sides can agree with

Dear Belly,

Your suggestions are truly worthwhile and very valid.
All we desperately need is the right kind of leadership
for that to happen. Fingers-crossed that in these
troubled times that won't take too long.
My dream for this country is for the major parties to
be able to work together on issues of importance for
the good of our society and nation.

until both sides can give ground in the interests of the country good government will not happen Foxy.

Dear Belly,

I'm more optimistic.
Especially if more women get into Parliament
and they get rid of the old "die-hards."

Honestly as the extreme right gets more rabid it can be a reason better governments are the result, I too think things will improve.
UN laughing at Trump is a sign he has not fooled every one

The UN have big problems - interesting to see in a few years when it has the same problems as the EU.

CM yes in fact it has never even got close to what it promised in part because countries can boycott majority rulings
But is it behind a bigger thing? is the UN pushing for one world government.
As we watch, if I am still around, in ten years time the EU will look a very different thing, if it still exists, at that time.
Prediction.
In an effort to sideline the extreme right centrist governments within the EU will adopt some of the rights wishes re refugees and migration.

Dear Belly,

The problem with the UN is that compliance with the
resolutions of the UN and its rulings is voluntary,
and no country is willing to surrender its sovereignty
to an international body. The UN is most effective
when the superpowers are able to agree on a course
of action and mobilize their blocs to support it.

Even so, the organisation provides an influential
forum for world opinion, and while it does not always
prevent things like wars, it surely helps make them less
likely.

True Foxy but it disappoints as often if not more than it pleases, yesterday as some laughed at Trump I felt was one of its better days