The People's Republic of Victoria is protecting its subjects from that awful Murdoch bigotry. Commissar Jacinta Allan has removed the “vile presence” of three railway station platform Sky News screens after being inundated with complaints about “televised bigotry. “Hundreds and hundreds” of complaints, according to this protector of poor Victorian plebs apparently unable to make up their own minds about what they see on television.

Try to comment on every thread about all I can say here is any harnessing of Sky news is ok by me enjoy see you in another thread

In the meantime, as they protect poor little Victorians from the dreaded Right, they are paralysed when it comes to African gangs. In the last couple of days, an idiot from near the top of the Victoria Police tree has come down gibbering about 'phases'. In their cowardly deals with African thugs, they have been through this 'phase' and that 'phase'; and soon, mind you, the will reach the 'arrest phase'. I kid you not; it's what this buffoon said.

After the arrest phase, we can look forward to the 'judicial phase', whereby the Africans will be tut tutted and, perhaps,given community service orders, which they know they can ignore. Then suspended sentence will be handed down - again and again. They will never see the inside of a jail because of 'cultural' issues, and on it will go.

Still, the situation will probably never get to the the 'arrest phase' before someone is killed and, even in Victoria, murder is still frowned on.

Dear Belly,

You, like my father, would have been of a generation who hated Hitler and all he stood with a passion so it must be disturbing to see people defending some young nitwit who wants to put a portrait of Hilter up in every classroom in Australia.

Glad to see Sky get pulled for the fawning interview they did with him.

Ttbn- At least they put the footage on the left wing media over the last few days. It's good to see some raw data in all the spin. But the footage was pretty disturbing- I was thinking about how a person could protect their families, community, culture against such an overwhelming threat in the current political climate. It will still take a long time (and a lot of heads) for the media to get their credibility back.

CM,

I don't have Sky, so I am unaware of any particular footage; I don't know what you are referring to. Nor do I have a clue what SteeleRedux is talking about -  “some young nitwit who wants to put a portrait of Hilter up in every classroom in Australia”? None of this was mentioned on my source. Nothing that was on Sky at any time came into it. It was only about political censorship of the media. There's a lot of assuming going on here, I believe.

Sorry ttbn- the footage I was referring to was of the Melbourne gang wars recently on TV. I think I was referring to the first few posts on the thread. Not sure of what SteeleRedux was talking about- I probably didn't get to that point. Australia used to have pictures of the Queen in the classroom- I guess there was some point of having a Hitler picture. Often I find comments like this are to stir up the Socs/ Jewish... could be false flag- but generally there are other ways of making a point.

well yes came back, try to be nice it is not a surprise you know nothing about the foul idiot Sky got in trouble over, it is a requirement that such commentators as yourself continue to have little idea what they are talking about, SteelRedux, got it in one CM no false flag here research the thing that Sky invited

When you have one side of a story you do not know if it is the truth, so here is a bit more info.

Quote
"Sky News has confirmed an interview with far-right extremist Blair Cottrell did not go to air in Victorian train stations — but Transport Minister Jacinta Allan says she received “different advice”.

Ms Allan today defended her decision to ban Sky News from Victorian train stations in a train wreck interview with Sky presenters Laura Jayes and David Speers, but was unable to give specific examples of offensive content that had been aired on train station platforms.

She argued “dozens of advertisers” had left Sky following the decision to air the Cottrell interview, when in fact only three — American Express, Huggies and Specsavers — had taken such action.

Ms Allan also admitted she was aware that no long-form interviews, such as the Blair Cottrell segment, were screened as part of the Sky News package aired at train stations."

So it is clear Jacinta Allan did it for other reasons as the claimed ones were blatant lies.

Far Right extremists, far Left extremists, it makes no difference to the fact that the Victorian government has censored the media. Politicians have no right to decide what we can see, hear or read. Most of us don't hold with extremes, but we should not be prevented from making up our minds, nor should we be 'protected' from nutty ideas.

//Far Right extremists, far Left extremists, it makes no difference to the fact that the Victorian government has censored the media.//

Because they removed some screens? I don't think that really counts as censorship. Censorship is when you interfere with content.

I must be getting old, because I can distinctly recall a time when train platforms didn't have TV screens on them and nobody seemed to mind. You went to train stations to catch trains, and you watched TV at home or down the pub. It was a simpler time, with fewer storms in teacups and mountains being made of molehills.

Come to think of it, my local station has never had a TV screen on it. Censorship or parsimony? I'm leaning toward the latter.

Also, doesn't everybody watch their phones these days anyway?

The Victorian Government does not know the difference between a boy and girl. How could they promote anything other than fake news.

It looks like this is the situation that those on the left are concerned about. Looks like a left beat up.

http://www.news.com.au/technology/online/social/farright-nationalist-blair-cottrell-copping-it-over-rape-tweet-to-sky-news-reporter/news-story/58d98064aa1d3dc242934f0ed49e2a05

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/aug/06/sky-news-interview-far-right-blair-cottrel

I think that the left are trying to stop Blair Cottrell from speaking in the media "about immigration". Given that the media is already left it's not that hard. Sad for the Australian people- If they're smart they will pressure Sky to reinstate the journalist. You can't expect the "Trotsky Left" to play fair. Good on them for their tactics- they appear to have been successful- but don't expect them to care about Australians- they are idealists that believe in smoothing out humanity and making them all the same- no families, no genders, no cultures, no countries- a John Lennon world... will be much more ethnocentric than Nazism.
Australia is probably better without Berkshire Hathaway's "American Express" anyway- I guess we now know which side of the "Globalization vs Localization" battle Warren Buffett is on. Armchair Critic previously directed me to information on Amazon's Jeff Bezos and his influence over US computer systems. Its concerning that so many of these extremely powerful business people seem to be on the side of the socialists/ globalists. Interesting that the Australian born Rupert Murdock owned Sky Media gave access to Blair Cottrell- maybe it's because Rupert Murdoch has a vested interest in the future of Australia where as others don't. I guess there had to be battle lines drawn at some stage- it will get harder before it gets easier.

Of course removing the screens is censorship, Toni; worse, it is infantalisation of the populus, telling people there are things that they should not see or hear - preventing them from making their own judgements. It’s not about a neo-Nazi, Hitler or Mao Zedong (the Left probably wouldn’t mind the latter): it is about freedom of speech and interference of that freedom by politicians and one section of the public barking like mad dogs when any views not theirs are presented.

//I think that the left are trying to stop Blair Cottrell from speaking in the media "about immigration".//

Really? We're supposed to be concerned about Neo-Nazis' right to free speech now? Nah, bugger that. I mean, I'm all in favour of free speech and all that, but come on, seriously? Nazis? I believe that Sir Winston Churchill put it best when he said:

'F%^k Nazis.'

Or something along those lines, at any rate.

Does anybody else remember the good old days when Nazis where a target of mockery rather fawning adulation? I miss those days.

//telling people there are things that they should not see or hear - preventing them from making their own judgements.//

Except nobody's actually done that, have they? Sky News will still be going to air, they're not telling people not to watch it, and people are still free to make their own judgements about watching it.

They'll just have to watch it on their own screen, like the rest of us plebs who don't have State governments generous enough to furnish their train stations with TVs in the first place. Poor deprived little commuters, how will they cope without their TV's to watch? Oh yeah... the same way the rest of us do and have been doing since they invented the railway. Personally, I take a book.

I'm really having a hard time seeing what all the big song and dance is about.

Toni,

"..Personally, I take a book."

Right with you on this.

All would be well, if only we had TV screens on every corner, in cafe's and bars, naturally in all schools and work places of course, and in peoples homes, goes without saying. Which only broadcasts the speeches of the savour of Australia 'Fearless Leader Corny Banana', with the occasional interlude of patriotic music, this is all required for the well being of our good citizens. Right ttbn.

We seem to be overlooking the fact sponsors upset with the neo nazi like Sky have withdrawn from that channel, they do so based on the view they may do not wish to offend customers, Sky, on free to air from 2/9 is far from balanced reporting, this thread again fills me with pride that I am from the left, that term includes any one to the left of the very right who are right of reality here and in America

Belly, are you saying the thoughts of 'Chairman Rupert' are not balanced? The procession of hard right talking heads on Sky who vie for the affection of their fearless leader do it out of love for Australia. Next thing you will be saying 'The Daily Telecrap' is a biased newspaper, or 'Beat Up' Bolt tells porkies!

Anyone invoking Nazism or Hitler these days is a joke. But it seems that the Left is so insecure that it doesn't want the jokers to have the freedom of speech EVERYBODY is entitled to have in a democracy. If you lefties don't think your doctrine can overcome a bit of silly, Nazi propaganda that most people ignore, you haven't got much going for you. And, this is why you need Big Brother and Nanny to protect you from the 'baddies'. Not much longer now, and you won't be able to wipe your own bums.

Paul1405 said- "The procession of hard right talking heads on Sky who vie for the affection of their fearless leader do it out of love for Australia."

I'm not sure Paul1405 meant the implications of the words used. Words are often used in shorthand form and become part of community vernacular. It's always interesting how certain people present "far right/ hard right/ extreme right" for those that are against immigration. It's a way of getting high immigration policies over the line. On average people choose 3 on a scale of 1-5 because they think it will maintain the status quo with minimal effort- but smart people will attempt to manipulate the test to get the result they want. If there is a choice between "extreme left/ left/ moderate/ right/ extreme right" most will "choose moderate". So if you present a view as "extreme right" to decrease their vote and "present your own as moderate" then you will win based on the limbic brain (animal brain). Education is the key "neo cortex" over "limbic"- logic over instinct. "Socialists are extreme left" but present their views as moderate. I remember the movie Outfoxed (criticizing Fox News and Murdoch) during the 2nd Iraq War- at the time they seemed to have a point- but not anymore when the socs/ globalists dominate the media. It's all relative. In this age media outlets looking out for local communities are rare- they need all the support our enlightened self interest can provide. I hope they reinstate the journalist to Sky.

CM,

'Moderate' means left these days. Look at the likes of Pyne, Birmingham, Freydenberg etc, calling themselves 'moderate' when they are clearly lefties, who wouldn't feel lost if they accidentally drifted in the Labor party room. And what about this Labor 'right wing' nonsense. How could any Laborite be anything but left, through and through.

And, for all the yabber about a 'procession of hard right talking heads', the leftist goons can name two only: Andrew Bolt and Cory Bernadi. Bolt is barely known since he left free to air TV and, since his court case, he is a nothing man, no longer standing for anything. He can be heard free on 2GB with the very pedestrian Steve Price, but they just talk over the top of each other, and when someone is daft enough to ring in, they talk to each other over the caller - rude bastards. Bernardi, loves the sound of his own voice, and will turn out to be an articulate version of Pauline Hanson with about as much power.

Most of these right wing demons have been invented by the Left to cover their own failures, incompetence and stupid policies like mass immigration, as you say.

To Ttbn- Thanks for your feedback.

I don't blame Cory Bernardi, Andrew Bolt- I may not have always agreed with them- but they are operating in a very difficult climate- and they are saying some good things- that others are afraid to say in public.

Antifa and their friends in politics, bureaucracy, media, universities, global business, on the web have a lot of influence. This seems to have been effected by political correctness in all these organisations.

Sadly the left have "played the game" better than other parts of the community. They have formed an army while everyone else has been fighting against each other for small advantage. When the current idealistic leaders of the socialist movement form the world socialist government and become its power elite I'm sure we will live in an idealistic world.

When organisations become larger it's more important to have systems to manage how power is transferred from the small to the large scale through the hierarchy- this is one of the main problems with both socialism and capitalism. Otherwise as Orwell said "it's a boot on the head of everyone forever".

The internet was seen as democraticization of communication but with Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, Paypal blocking services to proscribed groups and individuals- under threat from Antifa and their friends- democracy is threatened.

Socialism/ Communism was never a friend of democracy anyway- "Ideas are more dangerous than guns"- Stalin.

But "Socialists do their work in the name of democracy".

Thanks again ttbn

Paul you and I will never be the average poster here, but we do come from the average section of the community, Sky, like Fox is the servant of the very very right, both long ago, left truth in the waste paper basket,as an unwanted intrusion on what is basically a purpose built propaganda machine.
Those content to overuse the word left, as proof anyone concerned about a better world are to be considered the perfect product of news services bent on deception not informing us

The police turned up to the riots in Melbourne dressed like Darth Vader. The may as well have arrived in singlets and thongs. They did look so smart though and it must be fun dressing up

The whole issue is an exercise in hypocrisy. Blair Cotrell has been on Channel 7 and 9 I think plus been interviewed on ABCradio.
However, apparently only his appearance on Sky news is worthy of attention.

Big Nana is right. Cottrell has been around for a long time, and this whole thing is just wing-flapping by the Victorian neo-Communist government, which is incapable of sitting around for long without doing or saying something really stupid.

And yes, the pilot: Victoria Police is only good for dressing up and play-acting. Their only role is political and thought policing - none of that dangerous stuff like protecting society; they might get hurt.

Graham ASHTON is probably the worst police Commissioner in the history of that Force. I know Mr Ashton well enough, I ought to, we spent ten weeks together on a fairly taxing course back in 1983. Personally he's a happy going, reasonable sort of bloke. Professionally, since he joined VICPOL, though he seemed to flourish in several senior roles I, and many of my colleagues who were on the same course, would very much doubt he was ever Commissioner material. Graham was very much a follower, never the leader preferring instead, to just kick around a football on his down-time while on that course?

The safety of Victorians under Mr ASHTON'S stewardship, is at best problematic, at worst dire. I've no doubt whatsoever, there are members of VICPOL who're well up to the task of interdicting these hooligan Black African Gangs from getting even a greater toe-hold then they already have The problem has always been, one very weak, professionally impotent & misguided individual - the Premier, Mr Danial ANDREWS. Like Graham ASHTON, probably the worst Premier in the history of the State of Victoria.

I really feel so sorry for Victorian folk, more specifically Melbournian's, who're confronting these Black African Gangs. The only thing between them and oblivion, is Danial ANDREWS & the Police Commissioner, Graham ASHTON, both of whom are well out of their depth.

Yeah you would think that the biggest news story of the year would be a bunch of mulsims in an American state (new Mexico) training kids to do school shootings. Oh wait, a he is offended for being called a she. The abc is disgusting and an enemy of Australia just like the fake news outlets in the US who hate Trump. Shut down the news that does not fit the sick left narrative.

Dear o sung wu,

One of my relations served directly under Ashton while in the AFP and did not have a bad word to say about him unlike his views of one or two other senior members. Apparently he was more than competent and very operationally sound. To get the gig leading the Australian contingent in Bali after the bombings meant he was highly regarded, you don't send anyone you don't have absolute confidence in to perform that role.

He has an Order of Australia and the Australian Police Medal which isn't too shabby in anyone's language.

Yet you are assessing the bloke from a course in 1983 when he would have been just 23 years old still learning the craft in many respects. I'm sure he would have been keeping the head down with all the crusty types present.

This year there has been a significant decrease in offending rates across the state, many of which have continued the trend from the year before.

Gang violence is of course a concern but the media has blown it way out of proportion.

And contrary to what you might be reading over the border most Victorians thing we do alright, particularly in comparison the crime rates in your state.

Victoria has the lowest crime rate of any state in Australia and is second only to the ACT. Perhaps your state could do with an Ashton.

“New data from the Australian Bureau of Statistics shows Victoria has the second lowest rate of offending, trailing only the ACT. In Victoria, there were 75,860 offenders proceeded against by police in 2016-17, or 1392 per 100,000 persons.”
http://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/crime/statistics-paint-clearer-picture-of-crime-scene-in-victoria/news-story/db37465d0eb16e03760be826da8d8e18

SteeleRedux Quote "Victoria has the lowest crime rate of any state in Australia"

Of course Victoria police would not fudge the figure or would they.

Where do ABS get there data from in this case Victoria police.

When on numerous occasions Africans have rioted police were advised to do nothing, NO CRIME HERE.

Dear Philip S,

Around 50 youths mostly of African descent clash and end up breaking a window of a police car. Look at all the resultant media.

Compare it to this one in NSW which took over 26 police cars responding to bring under control with police subjected to scores of bottles and their cars damaged.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/police-pelted-with-bottles-as-300-youths-crash-lake-macquarie-house-party/news-story/41d92dd6f4dc58b9006a9cd80a167269

Or this one involving 75 youths at a carnival;

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/5192973/massive-brawl-breaks-out-at-south-coast-carnival-on-australia-day/

"As many as 12 police vehicles rushed to the scene of the punch-up, which witnesses said involved as many as 75 people, including teenagers and older people. One witness said the brawlers were throwing glass bottles and rocks at each other in the car park before continuing to fight inside the carnival grounds. Once inside the carnival, the brawlers allegedly bashed into the back of the portable toilets while small children were inside screaming and then fought their way through one of the amusement rides. Another witness said her 10-year-old child saw a man with blood all over him next to the front entry."

Just good Aussie fun?

G'day there STEELEREDUX...

There are elements of truth in what you say, as there are in mine. It was well known, Mr ASHTON was sent to Bali I/C of the forensic investigation of the Bali bombing, NOT for his forensic input, he didn't have any. But because he spoke Bahasa Indonesian. He'd been a, LO, I think the Feds call them, in Indonesia where he learnt the language. He was dispatched there for no other reason, than as a facilitator.

You're right, he was a recipient of an; OAM & the APM. If I was to tell you about some of the rorts associated with getting the nod for a APM, you'd not believe me! So I won't even bother trying. All I can say, over my long police service, there are many more worthy Officers far more meritorious than Mr ASHTON, who should've got infinitely higher recognition for their jobs, then Mr ASHTON. I will say, he apparently acquitted himself very well with a couple of senior jobs in VICPOL. However, leaders are born. You can learn leadership skills, but unless you have that unique benefit of being a natural leader, all the learning in the world won't help.

It's like the military STEELE, to be awarded a decoration ,you've gotta be lucky enough to have 'the deed' witnessed, by an Officer or a W Off attesting faithfully to what they saw you do.

The OAM... One of my closest and dearest mates (a Vietnam Veteran at FSB 'Coral & Balmoral') got an OAM, for services to Veterans (an Advocate). He contracted a particularly virulent Brain Tumour (believed caused by the insidious 'orange mist', used as a defoliant in Vietnam). The then Governor of Queensland heard about it, and instead of making him wait until Queens Birthday or whenever gongs are handed out - The Governor (also a Veteran in his own right) held a private investiture for David, his wife and grown children, awarding him his OAM. David died less than three weeks later. I've never got over it!

Dear o sung wu,

Of course we are bringing different perspectives to the debate but you described him as the worst ever.

So he tops even the utterly corrupt individuals who have held that position? Or the gung-ho macho unintelligent leaders who encouraged a type of so called 'hard' policing which saw the force kill over 34 members of the public in a decade? This was in the same period that only claimed 15 for the rest of Australia including just 7 in NSW as well as sparking tit for tat killings which saw too many young officers lose their lives.

There is no way this bloke comes anywhere near that even with the most jaundiced viewing of his performance.

I think any person would bring pluses and minuses to the chief's role, they are human after all. I was talking to a police officer after Ashton openly went on stress leave and they were keen to stand up for him. For them it showed that it was okay to acknowledge being impacted by mental fatigue or stress and to ask for time to deal with it.

In the end you did a course with a very young Ashton and formed an opinion of his leadership capabilities. After reading your post I rang my relative to get his perspective of the man and as I said he was unwaveringly positive about his capabilities and leadership. He may have made a derisive remark after I read him your post but it wasn't directed at Ashton.

I have another relative who is currently in the force. I will have a chat to him when I see him next to get his views but I'm not sure they will be much different.

Blair Cottrell on ABC Live! Are we now to ban the ABC??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD-mfrxnr8w

Jacinda Allen's veneer thin excuse to shut down media that does not fawn at Labor's feet makes her actions closer to those of a tinpot dictator than the idiot that Sky news and 4 other news channels interviewed incl the ABC. I wonder if her shopping includes jackboots and goose-stepping lessons?

SR,

I see that you have had to scour the past 2 years of incidents to find 2 examples of group violence by non-Sudanese youths compared the roughly double number of incidents this year in Melbourne alone by these gangs. As much as the left whinge are trying desperately to pretend that this problem doesn't exist, there is virtually no one in Melbourne that isn't aware of it.

SteeleRedux You are scraping the bottom of the barrel and could only come up with 2 examples in 2 years.

Please tell me how you can compare 2 examples in 2 years to almost a weekly event by the Sudanese and Africans in Victoria?

You have epic ally failed this one.

STEELEREDUX you said a relative of yours made a derisive remark about me, did he? I gather he's with the Feds as well? And he would know of me, how?

Dear o sung wu,

No it wasn't directed specifically at you otherwise I would have made that clear. It was a general comment about attitudes of older coppers especially toward younger people who end up succeeding in the job.

However he was certainly within his rights to have been more direct. You were attacking an officer he served under and who had gained his respect just on the strength of your long ago reminiscing about Ashton whom you met on a course when he was in his early 20s.

You took apart everything Ashton has achieved since then and gave an opinion on why they mean little.

To say he was put in charge of the Bali investigations because he was just a glorified translator not only disrespected him but also those who made the decision to send him as well as those who did a bloody good job under very difficult circumstances.

You have then intimated that every accolade he has gained was not done though effort, skill and leadership but because the system stinks.

Now my relative defended a bloke he has served with. Even if you think it was unwarranted at the very least it certainly shows Ashton has been able to secure the loyalty of those under his command. Not ever boss is able to do that.

But you took it to a whole different level when you called him the worst ever and you certainly deserve to be challenged on it.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Of course a problem exists but it is being used as a political football with little regard for how the incidents compare to others done by those outside the Sudanese community.

Why wasn't this home invasion a few weeks ago used to stir up a frenzy against 'anglos'?

http://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/three-injured-eight-on-the-run-after-violent-home-invasion-in-melbourne-s-north-west-20180719-p4zsat.html

Or this;

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2017/11/05/00/24/punches-thrown-as-wild-brawl-breaks-out-in-melbourne-s-cbd?ocid=social-9News

Or this;

http://www.kiis1011.com.au/newsroom/young-mother-horrifically-bashed-during-wild-brawl-at-a-bachelor-and-spinsters-ball

Or this;

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-26/afl-western-district-investigating-mass-brawl-country-match/9698818

Or does a bit of a punch on at the footy or at a piss up not really count as violent behaviour anymore? Is that because it was done by our mob letting their hair down as opposed to their mob who are an existential threat to us all?

//Jacinda Allen's veneer thin excuse to shut down media//

They're still being broadcast, Shadow. When your missus takes charge of the remote and changes the channel from 'Robot Wars' because "we're not watching that crap", that doesn't shut down 'Robot Wars'. Thank god. Where would we be without 'Robot Wars'?

Similarly, when the government takes charge of the remote (which seems fair enough if it's their telly) and changes the channel from Sky News because "we're not watching that crap", it doesn't shut down Sky News. Sky News is still being broadcast; you're just not receiving it any more. After all, you can only watch one channel at a time. Does that mean that all the others are being censored when you're not watching them?

Seems like some people are getting worked up about nothing. If they're really that worried about missing Sky News, can't they just record it and watch it when they get home? That's what I do if I'm going to be out when there's a show I really want to watch programmed.

SR,

The home invasion you quote does not mention any description of the home invaders so you don't even know whether they are Anglo. As for the other brawls, they are all bad behaviour, but for every one you can quote, I can find many more incl ones in which police are targeted and one in which someone was stabbed to death.

The point is that why is 0.1% of the population responsible for nearly 50% of violent crime. This is low hanging fruit for law enforcement, and pretending it doesn't exist won't make it better.

Tony,

When Big Brother (or sister) in government takes the remote and decides what you can watch that is the very definition of political censorship. That Jackboot Allen used the flimsy excuse that Sky interviewed a thug that never showed on the trains, and failed to ban the ABC for the same crime shows that she is simply lying through her teeth. If NSW banned the ABC for the same reason we would hear the screeching from space.

The left used to be the proponents of free speech and press freedom, now they are as intolerant of criticism as the National Socialists used to be.

Hi Steele,

We have had terrible violence in Sydney, at the hands of the Liberal Party! Yes indeed, Shadow should I fear for my life? After all it was your man the Leading NSW Liberal Rami Abdallah, (a rather suspect sounding name if you ask me), who has been charged with assault after a Liberal Party meeting turned violent in Arncliff, a burb I suspect of being a hot bed of racial intolerance, I wouldn't go to Arncliff to buy a Kaaba, if you get my drift, you can never be to careful with rampaging Liberals on the loose! In the dark they all look black to me.

Paul,

I am far more worried about the marauding packs of greens such as Jeremy Buckingham sexually assaulting women and Leading NSW Green Karel Solomon molesting children.

//Tony//

No, try again. Christ mate, it's only four letters.

Apparently you are a bear of very little brain and long words bother you. Wouldn't have thought that four whole letters, helpfully spelt for people at the bottom of all my posts, could cause people so much difficulty. Apparently I was wrong. I blame the schools and too much time spent watching telly instead of reading books.

Toni,

Perhaps people are misspelling you name just to get up your nose? Pretty juvenile, but it seems to be working as far as getting up your nose goes. You should have signed up as Antonio, but I guess some people could mess that up too. Recreate yourself as 'Jim': that'll muck 'em up. People constantly misspell my first name, too, in real life, and it pisses me off. That's why I, like most other posters, use a moniker that I have no real attachment to.

Hi there STREELEREDUX...

I repeat, in the opinion of many in VICPOL that I know, Mr ASHTON is the worst Commissioner in their memories. Another VICPOL heavy a Mr Kelvin GLEAR (sic) was quoted in part; and using my own language - 'modern Officers are too scared of making a mistake to do their jobs properly', and; 'Officers have lost sight of what their job is', and again; 'a failure of leadership'.

A TV or Radio Show titled Miranda DEVINE (I've never heard of her) She was quoted as saying Graham ASHTON was 'completely hopeless'. Given his background in the AFP, NOT community policing. I spoke to an ex NSWPOL/Narcotics Invest. in Customs/ and former Commander (rtd.) from the Feds. Why Graham ASHTON was selected for the Bali Bombing, he confirmed (i) his ability to speak the lingo (II) and as a former L.O. he was familiar with the Indonesian policing hierarchy. Not for his investigative of forensic abilities.

You can believe this or not, frankly I couldn't care less...Most 'State' police forces in this country, have very little regard for the AFP. They're (the AFP) are known by many uncomplimentary epithets. Chief among them; 'the plastics' among other less complimentary names.

STEELEREDUX, when as a detective sergeant, I worked on a number of joint task forces with the Feds. For the most part, they're good people (individually). One particularly large drug importation job I was I/C of a squad of NSWPOL detectives, coupled with a squad of Fed. Investigators. Their Agent I/C was a nice sort of young bloke in his late thirties. In general conservation it emerged - he himself, had never actually made an arrest !? I was gobsmacked, in fact I didn't initially believe him?

Later enquiries revealed this is not that unusual. The Feds are split in two. One deals with Federal crime. The other's are the police for the ACT (Canberra). Apparently they undertake the normal community role in the Territory and yes their arrest records would be like anywhere else in Oz, proportionate to the population I would imagine.

o sung wu,

SR is beyond reasoning, and your experience is wasted on him. While most people learn more as they mature, SR seems to get sillier with each post. Perhaps a traumatic experience froze his development.

yep crime statistics are down. I mean when you could leave your car and house unlocked it was much more dangerous. Who really pays these corrupt researchers to invent statistics (sorry lies) to deny crime rates in ghettos created largely by failed immigration policies. Only a brainwashed leftie convincing themselves of their sick failed narratives could believe such c=ap. Same people who deny the reasons for the murder rate in London now surpassing New York. Nothing to do with muslim population is it guys?

G'day there TTBN...

Yeah you're right I reckon, though I'm not trying to vilify Graham ASHTON at all. It's just a Commissioner is your top man and everything he does can affect big time what the troops do. There's not a man or women in the job who can claim they 'DON'T fear/respect the Commissioners power. Police Commissioners exercise enormous power over their troops. The police force is very much a para-military organisation, and it's run along similar lines. If the rank 'n file have no respect for the man, well the job can deteriorate markedly. Thanks mate!

//Recreate yourself as 'Jim': that'll muck 'em up.//

You'd hope so, but I suspect it would only be a matter of time before I got called 'Gym' or something along those lines.

But I guess I could go for something that's a bit more idiot-proof, I dunno, 'qqqq' or something. I'm sure even bright sparks like SM would have their work cut out for them messing that up.

.... But as it turns out this website does not appear to let you change your username. I wish I could say I'm surprised to come across such a glaring design flaw, but I'm used to OLO's little quirks now. In some way, they're charmingly quaint. Mostly just annoying though.

Dear o sung wu,

You said;

“I repeat, in the opinion of many in VICPOL that I know, Mr ASHTON is the worst Commissioner in their memories.”

Well no, this is the first time you have claimed it. Until now your only assessment of him was when the two of you attended a training course when he was in his early 20s. I compared that to the assessment of someone who served directly under him when he was in the AFP in a senior role.

Now forgive me if I take the assessment of your Vicpol contacts with a grain of salt. There has always been deep resentment within some of the members whenever an 'outsider' is appointed chief commissioner. Simon Overland also came from the AFP and faced serious undermining from within.

You insinuated that Ashton only got the Bali job because of his fluency of the language. Well that fluency came through application and determination to be as thorough and professional in his role as LO as he could. I pretty sure that task would have thrown most people but he made sure it was part of his skill set. While I think it would have been a factor there is no way he would have got the Bali role if he didn't tick a lot of the other boxes as well.

Cont

Cont

Yes I had heard the term 'plastics' but from my understanding their professionalism was a hallmark in comparison to the average state copper. It was also related to me that the AFP ranked the various state police depending on how much they could liaise without jeopardising an operation due to information being leaked to the targets. NSW was not at the top of that list.

Glare who you quote has been laying into the Victoria police under every commissioner since he bailed from the job. In 2015 he slammed them for going two up and being instructed not to wear their uniforms home due to heightened terrorism concerns. In his overblown style he said the police 'moving back to the dark ages' whatever that meant. Last year he was banging on about magistrates being too lenient and that a night court to handle the backlog was a waste of time.

This bloke is a professional whinger. Now I know that it is almost a given that retired police officers carry on about how terrible things are being run now as opposed to when they were in the job but can you understand that most of us take it for what it is, an attack of the curmudgeons, not to be taken too seriously.

SR has now at reached an hysterical stage in his bizarre, unnatural defence of a person whom o sung wu worked with and clearly knows better than SR himself does, unless of course Ashton is the relative in the force mentioned by SR. See, osw, this what you can get when you try to have a conversation with with a leftist fanatic who believes he is right and everybody else is wrong. Who gives a stuff about Ashton, anyway! And, has SR finally flipped so far out of control that he thinks he is Ashton's or Victoria Police's guardian angel? Or, do police forces have mascots? He could be a mascot.

No matter what SR’s problem is, his ravings have nothing to do with the African Gang problem virtually condoned by the Victorian government. Ashton is just a yes-man public servant, which seems to be the sort the government wants. Christine Nixon also lied about the African Gangs and their disproportionate contribution to crime and mayhem in Melbourne. What a state Victoria is - ultra left politicians, and a police force patterned on the one from The Pirates of Penzance.

Hi there TTBN...

You're right when you say the reputation of Commissioners are established by the quality and effectiveness of their leadership and the ability of clearing crime. For some inexplicable reason VICPOL seemed quite reluctant to appoint Commissioners from within, certainly in recent times.
Christian NIXON (her Dad was an exceptional copper) Simon OVERLAND (another Fed) and of course Graham ASHTON.

To be fair TTBN, it's tough for a Commissioner to take a course of action against a group of individuals, if the government are resistant to that action (the Black African Gangs). It's also very true, to deal with street offences you need a street copper. Not some suited Fed running about with a vest on, saying 'Feds'. I'm buggered if I know, I'd hate to be living anywhere near these Gangs. Who would you turn to if you were accosted by them?

Hi again; my uninformed STEELEREDUX...

A few facts about your beloved Feds. Many of their recruits join, only after they've failed to gain entry into their respective State Force's from whence they've come. None of them train at an Academy. They have a College, with a collegiate atmosphere where there are no uniforms, and bugger all discipline.

Picture if you will; a nice sunny outdoor scene, with a group of people sitting and standing on a patch of well mown lawn, with a bundle of books and texts grasped against their chest, laughing and smiling as they discuss some of the the finer points of their previous lecture? Men and women alike, happily enjoying the sunshine and each others company. A scene from Cambridge University? Melbourne Uni perhaps? Not sure - that's OK.

It's a former, 60 years old, two story, previous public servant's' hostel in Canberra. Which the Feds have taken over and turned into their College.

STEELEREDUX, I will no longer continue to criticise the Fed Police. I merely wanted you to know what Graham ASHTON'S former policing antecedents were, from the Feds. As far as I know, they've done some superb work with interdicting Drug importation in collaboration with the Customs; sorry I mean 'Border Force' personnel.

My understanding is; Border Force locate the drugs in a Container, or at Parcel Post, wherever. The Feds are brought in, they carefully replace the Drug shipment, with a fake substance. And lay await, until the Container or Parcel is claimed. The Feds have become especially adroit at this practice. The Feds, follow it, and arrest everyone knowingly concerned. Sometime they'll seek assistance from the State Force for additional armed back-up. In this area, they do good work, as in major Fraud matters against the government. Street coppers, they are not!

o sung wu,

"..(her Dad was an exceptional copper)".

He certainly was, Ross Nixon and I once collaborated on an arrest...mine!!

He was game too and lucky, on one occasion they had a house staked out, in the blue Mountains somewhere, and when the crime returned and were within the cordon, he stepped out onto the verandah and called on them to surrender, the reply was a bullet that hit the verandah post near his head. It is a mark of his and the others' professionalism that the crime were taken without being shot.

G'day there IS MISE...

What an amazing story! To be honest I didn't know Mr NIXON at all well, in fact I'd doubt if he even knew my name. We'd pass in the corridor of the old CIB building and perhaps he'd nod, but usually he was in possession of sheets of paper or something, he'd have his head down reading it, so that would be that. Nevertheless Ross NIXON enjoyed a very fine rep. among the troops both as a copper and a decent sort of boss as well.

IS MISE I never ever worked directly for him, but he had guts no doubt about it. Standing up to a gunman without brandishing you own F/A takes guts that's for sure. Like the old story, never take a knife to a gun fight? Thanks for that Mate.

Does Roger Rogerson have any friends on here. Just asking.

PAUL1405...

What in the hell would you know about ROGERSON? Your pathetic Left wing, sickly 'Green' slurs are so typical of you. I'll tell you one thing about the man - he had real guts, he never ran from a stink. Something he wasn't, despite all his criminality, was a lousy yellow coward! A term you're well acquainted with PAUL1405!

Yes, o sung wu. He probably wasn't a nice man, but he didn't hurt anyone who didn't deserve it. I would prefer a few more Rogerson's protecting the public than the milk sops we have now. I can't think of the quote exactly, but it has to do with us being able to sleep safely in our beds because 'rough men' go quietly about their business.

Some people are very touchy. Never mention what don't suit their mantra.

"He probably wasn't a nice man, but he didn't hurt anyone who didn't deserve it" What an understatement.

Hi there TTBN & PAUL1405

Well PAUL1405...

It was he and his colleagues who kept your 'yellow' arse safe, as well as protecting your mates - Those festering Green slugs who ooze and seep their disease ridden messages, before they again return to the dark vestiges of the sewers and drains of a our large Cities. No doubt PAUL1405 you're in good company. How in hells name did an individual with an IQ of a Turnip; Sarah HANSON-YOUNG ever manage to enter parliament? The answer can be found when we juxtapose Ms HANSON-YOUNG & PAUL1405. A vacuous, dull-witted individual...and well what do you reckon you are, a courageous fair-minded individual...? Or something altogether different. "They call him mellow yellow" (musically refrain).

G'day there TTBN...

Funny enough, Roger was a very charming man to most with whom he met. True he didn't suffer fools. Also true, though I knew him, he only knew me by sight, but always acknowledged me. It was said he owned the old CIB building, personally I take that with a grain of salt. There were many legendary detectives in the CIB at the time. I'd only just been promoted to Detective Sergeant, so I was now required to attend 'morning prayers' at the start of the shift. so I wasn't (yet) welcomed into the 'in crowd' as it were.

Personally I think it was the shooting of Warren LANFRANCHIE, by ROGERSON that was the start of the rot setting in. Not so much the shooting itself, but allegations of a 'throw down' that allegedly came from Roger, that caused the Internal and Coronial furore. Nevertheless he beat it and again Roger fell back into favour.

I might add I'd had a fair bit to do with LANFRANCHIE, a real maggot. Trafficker in drugs, 'pretend' standover man, but had a very attractive girl friend Julie HUCKSTEP former prostitute and druggie herself, and later murdered. LANFRANCHIE had his filthy fingers into many things not only drugs but prostitution, and many other crimes that always ended in people being hurt. Let me tell you, NOBODY will miss Warren LANFRANCHIE.

What a pathetic indictment of the NSW Police Force, that Federal Police could not share sensitive intelligence information with their NSW colleges as it was prone to be "telegraphed" to organized crime. Shameful!
Then that was seen by some as part of the job.

..." They call him mellow yellow " (refrain) - What in hell would you know about the Feds and NSWPOL? Only something you've parroted from STEELEREDUX? Why don't you seek succour from your putrefying Green mates, where you should feel right at home? After all a political party formed by someone with the odd proclivities of Dr Robert BROWN, would certainly lend itself to a full anthropological investigation on deviant behaviour? Correct me if I'm wrong hasn't one of your number sought to have the Statutes changed to permit bestiality?

Now now, don't get upset PAUL1405, that's an activity I know you'd never entertain. Besides, you could get hurt, and as we all know, you have a distinct aversion to anything that might cause you pain, discomfit, or fear eh PAUL1405!

Might I offer you some advise? Keep your mouth shut, until you know what you're talking about; otherwise you're merely confirming what a pitiful little idiot, and immense failure as man, you really are.

Dear o sung wu,

My SO certainly tells all and sundry how insufferable I can get when I'm not firing on all cylinders. I understand you are not having the best time of it at the moment which happens to the best of us so I'm going to be measured (for me at least) in response.

I contend you have proven my point, that coppers don't like outsiders in charge, particularly those they deemed not to have done the hard yards.

The AFP recruitment does give preference to those with tertiary qualifications in “Criminology, Criminal Justice, Law, National Security, Forensic Science, Intelligence and Counter Terrorism, International Security, Information Technology (communications, software, and network specialist)”

Also that their applicants show they “have a high level understanding of verbal, numerical and abstract relationships”.

It is true that they are rarely faced with hard edged community policing which doesn't mean they are not facing down some very hardened crims. However they do have a different function such as targeting multistate players and white collar crime. They certainly aren't employed breaking up fights between Sudanese youths, and if Ashton had come straight from the AFP to the Vicpol top job you might have had a case. Yet he first had several senior roles within their ranks in which you conceded he flourished.

All branches of law enforcement by their very nature think they are the best. While you might be derisive of the AFP they can be just as myopic. For instance they see briefs of evidence coming from their state counterparts and whinge about how poorly written they are. Expecting exacting standards of paperwork from those spending far more time on the streets is just as bad as your griping.

Ultimately I suspect there is a lot of care taken by very experienced people in choosing a chief commissioner. I'm not sure they get it wrong that much nowadays.

Anyway I hope you are coming good.

Cheers.

To O Sung Wu- Some believe- The map is the terrain... ;)

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

I respect both your tone and your support of Graham ASHTON. It's true what you say I did laud Mr ASHTON'S senior managerial roles in some of VICPOL'S more important Commands. He has abilities in the area of crime Interdiction, as a MANAGER, not as a detective. They're worlds apart Steele

The policing industry is like any other industry or trade. It's a skilled occupation. Like most trades, one enters as an apprentice, and you do your four years apprenticeship, and off you go with a career until you're aged retired. To my knowledge, all State Forces follow the same procedure, save the Feds.

Apparently they allow lateral entry. Meaning if you possess some qualification or a particular skill they want, you're in. No apprenticeship, no learning of the basic ropes - straight in. They're known as the 'College Cops. I don't suggest their work is easy . Or they're reluctant to take-on the 'hard heads', they will and they do.

Steele; it's not the Feds that are of issue here, it's Graham ASHTON and whether Mr ASHTON has ever served 'ANY' apprenticeship at all, regarding 'street policing'; 'on the road'; or community policing; whatever moniker you want to call it. Clearly he hasn't. So how can a Commissioner of Police, begin to appreciate the difficulties and problems street coppers have to daily contend with?

Simon OVERLAND, another Fed, had done his share of Street policing in Canberra, before he was appointed VICPOL Commissioner. Has Graham ASHTON? As a copper with over 32 years in the job, I can tell you, Graham ASHTON is well out of his depth, and will prove a disaster for VICPOL if he's not replaced.

In conclusion please take this in the spirit in which it's meant; I understand Mr ASHTON had several bouts of depression or other emotional difficulties, requiring him to take time off. Clearly the job got on top of him. Police Commissioners need to be hard. The job is hard. I can only hope Mr Ashton is well on the road to a full recovery.

I'm sorry CANUM MULUM...

I'm not with you apropos 'the map is the terrain'? I'd be most appreciative if you could unravel for me what it means, and if a reaction is required? Many thanks.

To O Sung Wu- The map is not the terrain- it's very different to use a map than to walk the terrain- often used in the forces to indicate that what works in theory may not in practice. The allusion was to humorously point to your experience in the police force walking the terrain over others presumably uninitiated who lack empirical experience. Sorry for my obscure reference- I remember you being from the military yourself I thought you may have heard of it. No reply necessary.

Hi there CANUM MALUM...

To be honest I've not heard the term before. I was in the military in the sixties, and sure they employed many different euphemisms to describe things, but to be honest I've not heard of that one before. Thanks my friend, I've learnt something different today.

Dear o sung wu,

You wrote;

“He has abilities in the area of crime Interdiction, as a MANAGER, not as a detective.”

Oh I agree but surely isn't that the job description of the chief commissioner, primarily to be a skilled manager? Don't you think all the dealing with the politics of the top job would drive a skilled, plain speaking detective up the wall?

Ashton's work as a LO would have heightened diplomacy skills and the ability to navigate through politically fraught waters.

Further one of his big pushes when he took the job was on addressing mental health for members and he ordered a review. It was prompted by the fact that 19 serving and former officers had taken their own lives since 2000 compared to 5 killed in the line of duty.

In 2016 his 'Victoria Police mental health review' was released.
http://www.police.vic.gov.au/retrievemedia.asp?Media_ID=117544

It found that;

“A key challenge identified was delayed helpseeking or avoidance when experiencing mental health issues. Contributing factors of these being: A widespread and entrenched stigma regarding the reporting of mental health issues within Victoria Police, leading to reluctance to seek help”

It firmly stated;

“There is a need for fundamental change in Victoria Police leadership culture, with core organisation-wide weaknesses in ‘peoplefocused’ leadership capability. • People-focused leadership capability is a mental health protective factor that operates through building supportive, cohesive and engaging team-based processes and practices; which can improve levels of employee wellbeing and reduce mental health risk.”

When he in turn found himself mentally an physically fatigued he took the time to repair and again “encouraged all members struggling with mental health to get support early”.

"I have been heartened to see this increasingly occurring across the force," he said in a statement in November. In this regard it is important that I therefore walk the talk, and now take the necessary time to deal with my fatigue issues."
http://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/top-cop-graham-ashton-returns-from-sick-leave-20180108-h0euro.html

I hope his leadership on this will save police lives and if they do I hope you will be gracious enough to recognise it.

Hi o sung wu,

Corruption in the NSW police force of which you claim to have been a "good" copper within was well known as being systemic long before Steele mentioned it on this thread, it simply jogged my memory.
A bent copper like Rogerson did more harm than any possible good he may have inadvertently bestowed on the people he was employed to serve. Your praise of the man simply disrespects the honest officers who do right by the community they serve. I am glad you have known so many "fine" officers in your time.

As for Vietnam, I am proud I didn't participate in a grubby war where baby killers were the norm rather than the exception. If my failure to participate in such atrocities makes me a coward, as you claim, then I am so pleased.

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

You argue a compelling case for Graham ASHTON, I've got to give you that. I wasn't aware he took a leadership role on mental illness within the job that you say he did? Well it's about time someone did so. I've always contended you wear your body armour 'back the front' to stop the knives of your bosses from penetrating your unprotected back.

It's like why so many members purchase for themselves, those small recorders. When being admonished by your boss for something that's not of your doing, you can record the maggot's 'stitch up'. I tell you this as an outsider Steele. Most police stress doesn't come from the criminal element or the dangers inherent with the job, but it's generated and distributed by the bosses. Unlike the military, were leadership is developed and encouraged. Where most older cops, many before my time and some from my era as well, are promoted beyond their leadership skill set. So they rely on heavy handed, bully boy tactics to achieve their aims.

Police are quite different to any other employment group (perhaps save the military) they're para-military. You're sworn in, so they've got you. They do not have to accept your resignation. And in most internal investigations, there's no such thing as natural justice. They can compel you to answer questions and give evidence. Unlike in normal criminal jurisprudence.

Back to your Feds - do you know, so toxic is their leadership, that two of their members in Melbourne, actually committed suicide last year, both in the same spot, in the same locker room, and shot with their own guns! Given the size of their force (Feds) they've had more suicides 'per sworn member' than any other Force in the country! They appear to by one very very sick puppy is the Feds?

The entire industry is in a mess, and only the fittest survive. Busted marriages, coppers going rogue, massive sick leave, fist fights among members; suicides...? If Graham ASHTON can save (police) lives - he'll have my vote.

It matters little how you cut it. You are a coward. Such a despicable figure that you are, you're not fit to bathe in the urine stream of the average police officer. Of course your courageous stand on Vietnam was another of your resounding milestones indicating yet again what a disgustingly rancid creep you are, with this consciences objector malarky you go on with. Principals were never part of your vocabulary, just as long as you were alright, that's what mattered.

You epitomises the view; 'A coward can never be moral'.

Baby killers eh, where did you get that from, some left wing rag from the back blocks of the US somewhere.

A question - you're doing a sweep through a small village in Vietnam, seeking out insurgents. When suddenly a young boy or girl aged 7 or 8 emerges from one of the huts and comes towards you. You point your weapon toward them, warning them not to come any closer. They continue to do so. What would you do, Mr Consciences Objector?

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

I've just this minute received notification of a new initiative by the Feds called 'Blue Hope', a book, or a Site or something, to help police and their families deal with mental illness, job related or otherwise. Seems your Mr ASHTON'S influence, is spreading far and wide by the look of things. It can only be good I reckon.

Dear o sung wu,

It can only be good.

From what you said Ashton and his review were right in focusing on leadership and their attitudes to the mental health of their charges as well as of themselves.

Forgive me for pointing out that you yourself displayed some of the attitudes that needed changing when you claimed;

“I understand Mr ASHTON had several bouts of depression or other emotional difficulties, requiring him to take time off. Clearly the job got on top of him. Police Commissioners need to be hard. The job is hard.”

To intimate that taking mental stress leave means someone is not up to the job as you did, surely must be deemed part of the problem.

However I think you are smart enough to realise there is some old school thinking that needs shifting to keep the black dog from claiming more police lives.

If Ashton succeeds in shifting some of this thinking then he will indeed have done well.

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

During my career and in my generation in the job, to show any sort of emotion over 'anything', save for displays of anger over some heinous crimes and their perpetrators, it's considered a sign of weakness. And as a sergeant, if you overtly display that weakness, your subordinates will climb all over you. From my information and post my retirement, not much has changed. It's essentially a 'cultural' thing.

By the way Steele, did you manage to speak with your relative over the inordinately high number of suicides among the Feds in their Melbourne HQ? Please don't take that enquiry as me being critical of the Feds. 'We all bleed when we're cut'.

And (again) you're right, the old school thinking on mental illness has to change, otherwise a police career will become so toxic they'll never be able to recruit people in sufficient numbers. As an example - When my dear first wife committed suicide, virtually none of my colleagues said much at all, other than to clumsily mutter something like "gee that's tough". A couple of them were more, I dunno, more religious with their comments I suppose, framing their condolences about her being in the care of God or something? I appreciated their remarks, notwithstanding how brief or clumsy those remarks may've been.

Older coppers generally have a 'line' whenever we need to inform a NOK of the death of a relative, in an accident or worse. Which usually works OK. In fact when I was doing my penance in the Academy as an Instructor, the recruits were taught procedures on death notification. But individually, they're not as adroit as they should've been. And I'm the same unfortunately.

If as you say, one of Graham ASHTON'S primary objectives is to do something positive about the mental illness of many of his police members, then I'll apologise unreservedly.

In my time, we had a Commissioner & a couple of Deputy Commissioners. One 'Admin' the other 'Operations'. There should've been another Deputy Commissioner, I/C Personnel. Perhaps then, the troops would've got the attention they deserve?

Dear o sung wu,

No apology required at all. You were presented with other information and adjusted your thinking as a result. Perfectly acceptable I would have thought.

I would however like to raise another matter with you.

A little while ago you, perhaps with some justification, questioned me on the way I responded to Hasbeen.

I respectfully submit that Hasbeen's provocations then were orders of magnitude worse that those of Paul1405 toward yourself in this thread.

I also contend that your response to Paul1405 was was far more cutting than anything I have ever directed toward Hasbeen.

I therefore feel comfortable in asking that you reflect on your recent exchange with Paul1405, and to echo a similar call that you did of me; “C'mon o sung wu, you can do much better than that.”

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

I'll respond tomorrow if you don't mind, I'm a bit crook tonight I'm afraid. Concerning PAUL1405 I don't believe I've found anyone on 'the Forum' that I loath more so, than him - at many levels. However I need to rein-in some of my rhetoric, otherwise I feel sure Graham YOUNG will remove my eligibility to participate on his Site and that would be an immense disappointment for me to have that permission withdrawn. Speak with you tomorrow sometime Steele.

Hi o sung wu,

I am sorry you are a sick man, I hope your recovery is a speedy one. I have never personally attacked you, other than to call you a warmonger, which I retracted as being untrue through lack of evidence. I believe like many police in your day, you were a "good" copper, meaning, you carried out your duties honestly, but accepted others dishonesty as part and parcel of the job, something that then, or today has no validity. If there are any other comments of mine that you take as a personal affront against you, I also retract them as well.
I have no time for criminality within the police force, such coppers should be expunged from the service without mercy.

On militarism, I am a pacifists, interpenetrate as you will, call me what you like, your feelings of loth towards me are not reciprocated, it all has no effect on me what so ever. I stand by my beliefs and opinions.

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

I'm sorry for my delay in responding to your latest contribution Steele.

I think I may've said before, there's a strong cultural connection between HASBEEN and myself. He's a former Navy Aviator; and I'm ex Military. Secondly our politics are almost identical, conservative. Another feature of HASBEEN'S commentary on 'The Forum', he's direct, which generally means, he makes no attempt to obfuscate his arguments for better or worse.

I guess all of us can become marginally energetic and/or excited, when discussing opposing views, especially on a medium like 'The Forum'. Consequently many of us become significantly more measured with our language, than others. You mentioned something to the effect that, my response's to PAUL1405 were more 'cutting' than yours was towards HASBEEN?

Firstly Steele, I didn't in anyway attempt to 'cut' PAUL1405 as you've implied. Rather, I simply (quietly) sought to appraise him of some of his own personal failings, apropos his character, after he made some scurrilous allegations against 'REAL MEN' who died in the service of our country, in far off, South East Asia - Vietnam!

No man should be exposed to that sort of condemnation particularly when they're dead, and unable to defend/answer for themselves!

This 'Baby Killer' crap! From an alleged 'Consciences Objector'.

Steele do you agree or disagree with that comment ?

Any arguement you and HASBEEN may've had, about any given topic, would've utterly paled into insignificance, compared with some of the assertions and language employed by PAUL1405. And you're right Steele, '...I can do better then that...'! I now realise, I was far too 'LENIENT' with him over those utterly disgusting remarks, about Veterans and Police who've lost their lives during the course of their duty. But I had to account for the fact, that this is a surveilled & monitored Site, and one must be measured in what one infers and says on such a Site.

What I need to do, is find the words and/or a Thesaurus to do a really proper job on this bloke. Just put that down to my lack of a good education.

Its easy to sanitize history, and air brush the truth, is it not? Blame others, negate any collective responsibility for the murderous actions of some.

"A question - you're doing a sweep through a small village in Vietnam, seeking out insurgents. When suddenly a young boy or girl aged 7 or 8 emerges from one of the huts and comes towards you. You point your weapon toward them, warning them not to come any closer. They continue to do so. What would you do, Mr Consciences Objector?"

The answer is obvious, you shoot them DEAD! My question is simple, what were you doing there in the first place?

My Lai Massacre; was the Vietnam War mass murder of unarmed Vietnamese civilians by U.S. troops in South Vietnam on 16 March 1968. Between 347 and 504 unarmed people were massacred by the U.S. Army. Victims included men, women, children, and infants. Some of the women were gang-raped and their bodies mutilated. Lieutenant William Calley Jr., a platoon leader, was the only person convicted. Found guilty of killing 22 villagers, he was originally given a life sentence, but served only three and a half years under house arrest.

During the Vietnam War there was a strong movement in the United States called 'Vietnam Veterans Against the War'. The VVAW at it height numbered around 25,000 members. VVAW was considered to be among the most influential anti-war organizations of the American Vietnam War.
What do you make of this organization and its members?

You know PAUL1405; being a real slug, you 'flop' from one position to another, like someone has trodden on you, oozing this stinking thick slime in your final death throes. In one Post you almost apologise for some of the assertions you've made; the next your gutless nature emerges and says oh no! And once again, your morality has this overpowering stench like a fetid discharge from a sewage works, devoid of any maintenance?

As I said earlier - 'A coward can never be moral'

Your history of the war is good. Most of my friends who were there, including myself, the last thing they wish to remember is the specifics of that war. Neither the heat or humidity, the noise and suddenness of a coming monsoons; or the risk of a contact, when advancing quietly through long grass, or standing your 2 hour piquet, at a MG pit. All of which are usually the last thing Veterans wish to talk of.

The greatest critics of war are always the biggest COWARDS!

You're a 'metastasising' maggot of a thing. No, No, I withdraw that observation entirely. A tumour that metastasises means it grows, it increases and spreads in size towards other life supporting organs. Symbolic of something you'd never get caught in doing, 'advancing' against anything! Least of all an enemy; hiding as you've continued doing, behind this absurd notion of being a C.O.? 'Cowardly Oik' is about all.

Lets slot the real reason squarely where it belongs. You were afraid of what would happen, if you were 'called up'. Afraid of the RTB; afraid of Canungra; afraid of being sent to South Vietnam; afraid of not coming back home.

Every single one of us shared in that fear, certainly to a greater or lessor degree of RTB & Canungra at least. Vietnam was a mystery to most of us in the ARA. And even a bigger mystery to the 'Nasho's', following on behind us. We all (especially the Nasho's) did our duty to the best of our ability.

Hi o sung wu,

As I have previously said I hold no animosity towards you, as a combatant in a despicable war. You, Calley, others like you, the people of My Lai, are all part of the millions of victims of war.

//Most of my friends who were there, including myself, the last thing they wish to remember is the specifics of that war.// Of course, the reality is too horrifying, too painful, that is understandable. How do you react, you sanitize the whole affair, some mask it in glory, others talk of the valour and sacrifice of comrades etc. All hide from the truth.

Remembering you were the one that first broached this subject in a response to a post of mine directed at Is Mise on the 'Dingo' thread. You took the opportunity to unload abuse then at me personally, and have continued it on ever since, knowing my pacifists and political views are not to your liking. It would be easy for me to launch some dumb personal attack on you, question your sexuality, attack your moral fibre, and liken you to some cretinous creature. All so easy, I have not done that as I do not believe you deserve such treatment. I say things that for you are disagreeable, however I will not shy away from such comments, but I am sorry they cause you pain. You post it, I'll respond.

If it's all so easy for you to attack me - well bring it on, your cowardly slug!

Hi o sung wu,

You seem not to comprehend, as I said it would be easy to attack you with similar personal barbs like the ones you are using towards me, anyone can throw insults like "cowardly slug" and the rest of what you have engaged in. I do not intend to do so in your "bring it on" fashion.

You asked me a question, I answered it, I ask you a question, you reply with an unrelated insulting diatribe. This discussion is obviously causing you too much distress, being the sick man that you are. It is only through compassion for a torched soul that I will leave you to your own misery within, as I consider the things we speak of are far to upsetting for you.

Of course you will PAUL1405 - you run whenever challenged - and in doing so, trying to convince others of your compassionate deed by leaving the discussion, ostensibly for the sake of a decrepit, and unwell old man. Well my craven little dipstick, that might deceive others, but in reality you're the laughing stock of all those who know you! Quick at handing out the invective, but expeditious enough to crawl away to safety, whenever it's returned. Like a dog with an itchy arse. And you're the cause of that distressing 'itch' to the unfortunate canine. The residual bowel matter, left remaining on the outside of the anal region. Also known as, 'residual PAUL1405' matter.

No response.