Once again the media is promoting an anti male campaign following the horrific death of a young celebrity. Women in positions of media power are demanding the right of women to be free to walk where and when they like in safety.
And in a perfect world they would be. But we don’t live in a perfect world. We are humans, with all the inherent failings that have existed since the beginning of human life, and if we value our women we take steps to protect them wherever possible. We don’t leave our houses unlocked or our cars sitting with the keys in the ignition because we rightly know that you cannot control the behaviour of other people. Surely we value our women more than our possessions?
And for those who demand we teach our men to treat women better, have they considered the fact that more children are killed by their mothers than women are killed by random strangers? Does that mean we have to demand our women treat children better and leave children in violent situations because they should be safe with their family?
Humans will always behave in ways society doesn’t approve off. Denying that fact just leaves vulnerable people open to attack and tragedy. Not just women but children and men as well

Like the post and thought behind it,see a white ribbon pledge person and very active in anti domestic violence field men haters are dirtying the water, right now call out the Victorian Police for? warning women to be careful!PC is an enemy to common sense always,yes some men are filth, some women too, but purely anti male stuff gets a run after every murder, bet nine in ten of us would gladly turn in such filth not support them.

Dear Big Nana,

Violence, will continue affecting
all of us and our communities if we don't change the culture
that feeds it.

We need to call it out - no matter who's doing it - If we
don't call it out - who will?

When we're exposed to people whose behaviour we feel is wrong
(male or female) we should call it out.

When we're exposed to bad behaviour - such as sexism, rigid
gender roles, stereotypes about masculinity and femininity,
or people talking aggressively or disrespectfully about
either men or women - including within male/female friendly
groups - we should call it out. Not support or excuse it.

This needs to start in our homes, schools, and social groups.
Instead of finger-pointing at each other - we need to just
call it out and make sure that it is understood - that this
behaviour is NOT acceptable. Only then will we make some headway.

Of course, in the meantime - we also need to drive it home to
our family members to take responsibility for their own
behaviour - and to not deliberately put themselves in harm's
way. Not to take unnecessary risks.

Well said Big Nana. Unfortunately this problem has been greatly increased by the bleeding hearts, who have managed to reduce the punishment for wrongdoing by youth to a mild frown. If the law came down like a ton of bricks on youthful crime, we would reduce adult crime dramatically.

I am continually to hear reports that some rapist or murderer had previous convictions for similar offences. These people should never have walked the streets again.

I am also getting very tired of the girls club that is the Queensland government today, using taxpayer dollars to promote women's liberation propaganda with their advertisements of domestic violence as a male dominated activity. They want to be careful that some don't decide that as they are tared with that broad brush, they might as well commit the crime.

Foxy, trying to change behaviour in people can only do so much. Some impulses are inherent. Some men are naturally more aggressive. Some women are naturally less nurturing. Some people are born with more violent tendencies than other.
Saying that natural behaviours can be trained away is like saying homosexuality can be trained away, or gender confusion.
Even under the most favourable conditions, society will still produce people who are violent, sociopathic, addicted to substances that make them violent, etc.
Naturally we hope every family tries to raise their children to be caring and considerate but as I said, it will never be perfect.
Telling young girls they have the right to dress how they like and do what they want is always going to end in tears.

Dear Big Nana,

I agree that you can't change some people but that
doesn't mean that we shouldn't call out bad behaviour.
If we can even have a small effect and influence by
doing so - it will still be better than not doing so.
Bad things happen if we turn a blind eye. And calling it
out just may influence the culture. In any case it would
be a good start. And also as I stated in my previous post,
people have to learn to also take responsibility for their
own actions - whether its the way they dress or where they
go at night - and that includes young men. Parking your
sports car in a bad neighbourhood is asking for trouble.
As is getting drunk or taking drugs.

I jumped in on this thread,see my facebook feed is full of men hating women,right now even my party, Victoria, is getting in on the act, see, tell me? no true, how many men do not share my HATRED? OF THOSE MEN who rape and murder? who bash their wives? few in my view!I have watched a woman, brutally! bash and mentally harm two partners, do I hate all women,? the true answer is SOME HUMANS are not human,educate them all their lives, but telling the police not to warn of the danger? opportunistic junk from a few who need help!

Sad part is that the porn and violence that the regressive left argued was so harmless is now producing its natural fruit. They are still dumb enough to tell young girls its their right to walk city streets at night. The same regressives have allowed and encouraged much Islamic immigration. Look what is happening in Europe. Meanwhile the average dad is demonised.

Feminist orthodoxy says that men's violence against women is part of a bigger pattern of sexism in society. The basic idea is very logical; while people responsible for their own actions, we also need to ask about the family, community and society that produced that person.

However, it has a few problems;
- It is too simplistic. It takes a complex collection of trauma to create a killer. No one ever killed anyone because they watched one too many episodes of the Footy Show or saw a few mates make crude jokes. The men who are the problem aren't going to change because they see their favourite footy team run out with white ribbons printed on their jumpers.

- Feminists also have this associated idea that says that men are only influenced by other men, so women have no responsibilities. This idea is self serving crap. They can be very traditional when it suits them.

- They can be prepared to generalise about men, based upon the actions of a few, but would never tolerate people doing that to women.

- If every bit of sexism is a part of a continuum that includes rape and murder, they can start to lose perspective. They seem to have more hated for someone who comments about a rape victim's skirt than they do for the actual rapist.

Alright, let's talk about being practical. What are some basic steps to avoid the kind of death that occured to that young celebrity? What should be a means to stay safe? I agree with Big Nana that we can't correct the world we live in. That's a bigger issue then we can face on our own. But like locking our car doors, and removing the keys out of the ignition we can take steps to avoid certian situtions, or to discourage harm from being done.

I'm sick of seeing a tragedy be used to further a political platform, expecially if that platform does nothing to address or fix the issue. So instead, don't let go of the hurt and sadness that this death invokes by just saying "men need to be better." That is it's own political stance that is not going to produce any results except an opurtunistic rise in support for a cause, while leaving the actual crime at bay.

Instead, of going down to politics, supporting on issue or standing against another, let's talk practical measures. What can be done to keep women safe? What can a woman do for herself? After all both sides of this conversation admit that there is responsibility in ourselves to put ourselves in a dangerous sitution. So what can be done to avoid that sitution?

Practical things like not going out alone at night, and strength in numbers.

Honestly, don't let this tragedy turn to political fuel. What are practical answers and practical solutions so this doesn't have to happen again. Or at least lessen it's chances.

We can and must look for answers, just talking about men or women bringing this on them selves is never right, just as slamming every man/women is not,yes a culture exists that highlights sex, both sexes use it, however surely rape and murder are separate?courts in my view rarely mirror community expectations in verdicts ,the victim, the fear horror should be the voice heard not long lines telling us what a bad life the offender has had

Dear Big Nana,

Thank You for raising this as a discussion.

There are so many good ideas and suggestions being
brought forward. Hopefully the voices of reason will
be heard. We must try to stop tragedies from
happening again.

Same old same old. Dumb female, stuffed full of 'rights', does the same dumb thing other dumb females stuffed full of 'rights' have been doing for years. Same thing happens. Yada yada for a few days to a week. All forgotten. Sometime later, another dumb female .......

Same dumb female?

Really - it's all her fault because she was raped and
murdered?

I guess you're right.

Nothing changes for some people.

I'm with Belly. In aggressive sexual behaviour we need to bash some sense into our judiciary. For too long we have allowed these people to be a law unto themselves. Time to tell them that their opinions don't have priority, the public's opinion does.

WE need not a three strikes law, but one strike & you are out permanently. At the first proven offence, even if minor, the sentence must be for the term of their lives.

No one, silly or not, deserves to be raped or killed because some deviant was given a second chance.

Dear Hassie,

And that's why you've got my respect and friendship.

It is an issue, justice that is, why all those years ago they chose to show us it was deaf dumb and blind and why today so many who sit in judgment seem determined to remind us it is so,the community expects much better

Even dumber - as well as being grossly irresponsible menaces - are those people who keep carping about what girls and women SHOULD be able to do without being raped when it is quite OBVIOUS that girls and women CANNOT do certain things without being at risk in this really dangerous society we now live in.

These are the sorts of idiots who say that suggesting that women should take more care with their personal safety are tantamount to victim blaming. Well, morons, if victims weren’t putting themselves in danger in the first place - by wandering around on their own at night for starters, possibly because they have heard you morons chuntering about 'rights’ -’ they would have zero chance of being raped by some lunatic stranger. So, yes: in that way they do have to accept some responsibility for what happens.

Convicted rapists should never be allowed back into society. There are no actions by magistrates and judges today that should be dignified with the term 'punishment’. I get that! Therefore we all have to take more care of ourselves. The 'system’ is no longer up to the job.

My post came after two recent murders and the rape of an 11 year old girl not all that far from here, all hurt, please understand it was also a judgment on true men hating feminists on facebook, see like most men I know some men are pure filth, I am active in all matters concerning female rights,but the very thought that I and all men, are in part responsible for these acts is insane.not one offender should ever walk free again.

Well, last night, vandals set out to defile the memorial to a 19 year old murder victim, maybe I should eat my words, such filth proves some at least need intervention and how we do that remains a question I have no answer for, shame on those filth who took part in this

Dear Belly,

I agree with you - We need much stronger laws in place
and harsher sentences on those who commit violent acts.

The message needs to be clear. No ifs or buts.
Violence is not going to be condoned!

Foxy yes very much agree, having re thought my view yes still upset with the thought all men are to blame, but, mothers some times love unconditionally, and in doing so fail sons, dads too, no child should not be educated at home to respect others why? do courts not mirror our expectations?

Dear Belly,

Of course not all men or women are to blame.
Finger-pointing is not going to solve the
problem.

As for mothers loving unconditionally?

I have never given my children unfettered freedom
or no responsibilities. They were always held accountable
for their actions. My husband and I were determined not to raise spoilt brats.
Thankfully our children turned out
to be decent human beings. And our grand-children seem to be
doing just fine as well.

unfortunately the more fatherless boys and girls that society encourages the more horrible crime we will see.

runner,

You'd be surprised. One of the biggest trouble makers
that I've ever known came from a very loving family
who gave the kid everything he wanted, private schools
and all. Unfortunately, that I think was part of his
problem. He grew up with no boundaries and thought
he could do what he wanted. Life taught him otherwise.

Always exceptions Foxy. Visit any prison in the western world and your denial of the obvious is clear for all to see.

runner,

Actually, according to our parish priest -
most of the in-mates at the former Pentridge
jail were ex- Christian Brothers boys.

No surprises there.

Hi Foxy as one who has been a screw and spent much time in prisons in wa and nsw I guarantee that your priest is wrong. I doubt Victoria is different to other states. Sounds to me its another one of your narratives confirmed by false facts.

runner,

No - I do not lie and neither does our
Parish Priest. At that time he was the prison chaplain
at the Melbourne Pentridge jail. His exact words were
that:

"The largest number of inmates at Pentridge were from
Christian Brothers' schools."

runner,

Regarding single parents?

What would help is for governments to increase
income support payments which have not gone up
in real time for years. That makes it very,
very, difficult for vulnerable people to use
the system. Insidious attacks on them don't help.

' Insidious attacks on them don't help' Which attacks are u referring to Foxy Personally I think most single parents are heroes doing a good job. Does not change the fact that children generally do much better with their biological father and mother.

runner,

What attacks am I talking about?

Go back and read your posts on fatherless children
and where in your estimation they end up.

Oh so it was facts you are complaining about Foxy. Oh well feel free to send your husband or boys to feminist men hating classes for re education. It did not seem to change Harvey's behaviour or other liberal artist who championed women's rights while raping them behind the scenes. Personally I am very happy with the ways my boys treat women.

Here's a piece of stupid advice to women from Premier Andrews:

““Go out with friends at night. Or don’t. Go about your day exactly as you intend, on your terms. Because women don’t need to change their behaviour. Men do.”

The problem is, men who rape women do not change. Therefore, women have to take extra care and ignore Andrews. But, silly women are thanking him for his inanity. What will happen when the next woman who takes his advise is raped and murdered? What will he say then? Just the same, I imagine.

The sort of animals who feel the need to rape are NOT going to change their behaviour. They are incapable of doing so. The are not just blokes making a mistake. They are very sick people. They are not just some drunk, who rapes someone he knows. They are predators who look to rape total strangers who don't know them and, if they think there is chance they will be identified, they have no qualms about killing their victims.

All this talk about punishment is phooey. Punishment is useless after the event. Punishment of one rapist (although they must be punished) will not deter another rapist. Women have to ignore people like Andrews and take total responsibility for their own safety. Parents have to pound the need to be careful into them. The 'right' to walk about, alone, after dark is not enforceable.

runner,

I don't understand your referring to my husband or my
children (you left out my grand-children) regarding their
"re-education?" Their education has been quite broad and vast.
But judging from from your posts - yours certainly could use much
improvement.

However, Thank You for your concerns. Perhaps you should
worry about yourself and members of your own family instead?
Worth a try at least.

'I don't understand your referring to my husband or my
children (you left out my grand-children) regarding their
"re-education?" Their education has been quite broad and vast.'

Oh I see so Daniel Andrews lecture does not apply to the men in your life just others! Typical 'progressives' attitude. Similar to Hilary as stated above.

runner,

I'm not familiar with what the Premier of Victoria said
however I'm not sure how that would relate to my husband
and children and all the suggestions you're making
regarding them? I think you're just stirring the pot.
That's not a productive way of arguing. It only encourages
more negative retorts.

However I did read some comments on the web that people
have made about the brutal rape and murder of that young
girl. This one I thought was fair enough:

"When young men are tragically killed in one punch attacks
an entire city has its nightlife shut down indefinitely.
When a young woman is brutally raped and murdered
women are told to "take responsibility for their own
safety."

Most women and young girls already do that. And certainly
the young raped and murdered girl
did according to the news reports.

So if only there was someone else police could also ask
to change their behaviour. Men, perhaps?

BTW: If me and my family you consider as being "Progressives,"
(Thank You). What does that make you and yours?

Foxy you seem insulted that I suggest the men in your life need further educating in the trearment of women. Obviously they don't but you seem to agree with the broad statements of feminist groups who are deceitful enough to push this barrow. Grandstanding by the likes of Daniel Andrews and others simply make matters worse. Of course young women are extremly stupid if they don't take proper actions to protect themselves. I live in an are with a lot of crime. I should be able to leave my house unlocked. The police would be the first to tell me how stupid I was if I did. Demanding my right to leave the house unlocked would encourage not deter the druggies in my area. How much more valuable is the life of a young girl than my house being broken into?

runner,

I don't agree with any vague and sweeping generalisations.
That's why I try to give exact quotes and references, links,
and sources.

Of course women take proper actions to protect themselves.
They've done it for years (including learning the art of
self-defence). And so did the young murder victim. She
carried her keys and a mobile phone with her.

However, how about men taking proper actions to ensure that
crimes like rape and murder don't happen, so women shouldn't
have to be so concerned about protecting themselves?

After all isn't a young girl's life worth that effort?

Progressives by halucination, progressive regressors by nature.

In an age where babies are murdered daily in women's wombs Foxy I don't whether murder outside the womb and rape will be stopping anytime soon. People who for decades argued against the need for fathers, that porn is harmless and we are evolving into more moral beings have added greatly to the problem. One wonders why no vigils have been held for the 2 and 3 year olds raped in Indigeneous communities over the last couple of months. Not even sure if your abc mentioned it.

Some comments confirm even underline we do need to change SOME humans behavior, any effort to blame the left, if you must brand every one you do not agree with left/progressive, seems to prove my point

ensure that crimes like rape and murder don't happen,
Foxy,
The leftist do-gooders would never allow action to be taken on this. They won't even come to the party with having a National Service to reintroduce discipline so how on Earth could anything be done to stop the crimes ?

If we keep brushing aside each other's concerns - and
continue to do nothing but finger-point -
then of course nothing will change. It will always be
other people who are the problem and isn't it convenient
to continue to shift the blame onto others?
However, if perhaps we change some of our own attitudes
and really listen to each other's concerns - we just might
make some headway.

Poor girl, that's pretty rough. In retrospect, it was very unwise, but maybe she thought her choices were limited.
Better question is; how do we achieve a safe homecoming at any hour of day or night, for girls and women?

What about free government funded cab vouchers, for women travelling home alone.
Let Andrews put his tax payer funded money, where his pontificating mouth is.

Death is a sad event under normal conditions, but a premature death by misadventure, seems doubly sad.
The special value of women to society, is their reproductive ability. A greater value than the male gender. Women are entitled to a greater consideration.

This greater consideration should include more concentrated security. But that increased security should be accompanied by a sense of responsibility, not as some take it, as an entitlement to be reckless.

Sad?horrific better says what the best of us are thinking, if we intend to make life safer for women and victims we can not ignore the revolving door nature of our justice system,such perpetrators should never ever walk free again,both sexes do, yes do, need to be told how to be safe,and at every level involving sexual assault the punishment should be mandatory, not in the hands of people who in the end over ride our expectations, mental health? is it mot insane to say a difference in sentencing should take place?

If we keep brushing aside each other's concerns - and continue to do nothing but finger-point -
Foxy,
Why then write these words ? What about helping at the next election to re-establish discipline & vote for a National Service & Tax reform ?
I have been pushing these issues here for years, let's start right now, right here & try to make it an election issue. I have written to several federal Ministers but only ever get computer generated replies. If more people do this then we will have a chance. This is beyond party politics, we all need to get together on this.

Diver Dan, her boyfriend walked her part of the way home, then they separated and he left her to walk the last 4km alone.
He had the option to walk her all the way. I really don’t understand any man allowing any female aquaintence, let alone a woman he cared for, walk home alone at that time of night.
Every night around the country, tens of thousands of women knock off late at night from their job. Nurses , paramedicas, policewomen, doctors, hospitality workers etc etc.
the safety conscious ones ensure they have safe reliable transport home.

Come on kiddies, talk some sense.

There are suburbs in Sydney where Muslim ethnic cleansing make it dangerous for a solo white man to walk the streets during the day, & definitely far too dangerous for one to walk them at night. If an adult man can't walk our streets, there is no chance they will be safe for a lady.

From what I hear there are parts of Brisbane that are similar. There are also parts of Brisbane where it is not on for an aboriginal to walk alone, with other nearby areas, where an islander would be foolish to venture, such are our ethnic problems.

Until we insert some backbone in our judiciary, & enact & enforce minimum sentencing laws, our streets will only get worse.

Perhaps the problem is lack of prison space putting pressure on judgements. If so, some old fashioned US style chain gangs might be what is needed. I have no doubt that the sight of a chain gang working on the road would be a great deterrent to many budding criminals.

How about public lynchings Hasbeen?yes some Muslims insult us by just sharing our country, but by far the biggest number add to it, what next?gas ovens?

Ah ha. Knew it would happen: now it's the boyfriend's fault. Why have the media, public-emoters and virtue-signalers not brought that one up before now!

individual,

What makes you think that I don't work at election time?

I have done for years. I am well-known in my community
and I also have quite a few prominent MPs as family friends.
So stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

Foxy,
How noble you are, it's almost unbearable. Hanging around an election booth for two days every three years is a joke not a service to the community. Why, because once voters get as far as the booth they already know who they're voting for. Handing them one of those environmetally unfriendly, glossy paper thingos is a total waste of time & resouces.
When will you be booking your flight to the US to go with Paul1405 to help those poor children ?
Now that would be something OLO'ers would respect both of you very much for.
I do my bit by not giving up to show up the illogic of the Leftists'. Their attempts to use poor illegal immigratnts' childrens plight to smoke screen their real agenda to ruin this Nation is a clear indication of their character.

individual,

Actually I don't hand out leaflets during election times.
I do much more than that inside the hall.

As for helping children? I've been doing that for years
I run the Storytime Sessions at our large regional
library network. I run the School Group tours.
I run the Book Clubs. I organise the Holiday Activities and
much much more. The kids love me as do the mums.
I also work part time as a volunteer at an aged care facility
in their dementia section. The residents love me there as well.

What do you do for anyone?

Do tell.

If you want to be of some use - how about you donate to
the "Need for Feed," organisation, which is helping feed
the animals of our farmers in drought areas that badly need
help. They also need volunteers. The organisation is run by
volunteers, so there's no admin. fees and the money goes directly
to where its needed the most. How about you put your money where
your mouth is. A cheque can be sent to:

Lions Club of Pakenham
PO Box 132
Pakenham Vic 3810.

Make yourself useful.

Ttbn, I’m not attacking men in general, just wondering why any man would let his girlfriend walk home alone in the dark.
Mind you, in these days of equality, I guess there is no need for gallantry. Women wanted equality, I guess walking yourself home is part of the deal.

Dear Big Nana,

Yes that's all well and good. However there's more to it
than that. The assumption that for women to remain safe
they must watch what they wear, what they say, and what
they do - seems a bit like passing the buck onto the
victims.

Women
already carry keys in their hands, calling
friends when walking alone at night, and so on. It should
not just be up to women to modify their behaviour - what is
needed is to look at men's toxic behaviour as well.

Toxic behaviour
does not just manifest itself one day out of nowhere. It's
cultivated and needs to be dismantled. Yes sure, we know that
not all men rape and murder women. Nobody is claiming that
they do. However men need to call it out - when sexist jokes
and disrespect for women - attitudes are being displayed.
The message needs to be put out there that this sort of
behaviour will not be tolerated. That sort of aggression is
not acceptable or condoned. And for this dismantling to occur
we need men to be part of the solution. Women can't do it
alone.

I agree that events like murder should get us thinking about how our society produces people (mainly men) twisted enough to kill. However, I believe that men and women contribute equally to the problem and everyone needs to present a united front against social pressure for men to be rough, tough and macho.

For a start, murdered women are front page news, as long as they are attractive and middle class. Men are murdered twice as often, but are less newsworthy. Missing white woman syndrome, as it is known, reinforces traditional views about gender.

Most serial killers have over-bearing mothers and absent fathers. Many hate women as a proxy for their own mother. They aren't sexist simply because of the blokes at the pub. I acknowledge that the absent father let them down just as much, but their mothers are a major part of the problem. Maybe Runner is right on this and dads can be protective factors.

Most of men's violence is aimed at other men. You will often see two men punching on and several people who have stirred things up. These other people are women just as often as they are men. Some people can excuse violence away when it is convenient.

Some of men's violence, such as DV, is aimed at women. If Mr and Mrs Jones have a domestic and they are both violent, as is often the case, they should be judged to the same standard. However, society in general and feminists in particular socialise people to assume women are victims, while the men are the lowest of the low. Furthermore, when MRAs like myself raise the issue, people who think they are feminists attempt to shame us for not being real men.

1/2

Even we talk about men's violence against ourselves (suicide), we see the same thing. I accept that many men need to get better at expressing our feelings. However, there is this social construction called the empathy gap, which works against men who do talk about their problems. Women, including feminists, can be very dismissive of men who seek a bit of sympathy. It often seems as though there are female victims and male losers.

Foxy, you usually seem very reasonable. These criticisms aren't aimed at you in particular. However other women do just as much as men in reinforcing traditional gender roles that contributed, in part, to the awful events of last weekend.

2/2

There will be many more of these awful incidents in the future. More women will be raped and have their lives ruined; others will be raped and lose their lives. And, after each incident, the same codswallop will be expressed here, in the media, and by ineffectual politicians.

Whatever has happened in the past when a rapist has been convicted will happen again this time. It will not bring back the victim back; it will not deter other rapists. The complete misunderstanding of what rape is all about, the insistence on unenforceable 'rights’, and the refusal of some women to accept that it is not safe for them to do certain things because they are women, is ensuring rape and possible murder will always be waiting for the unwary, the stupid and the arrogant. It is extremely depressing.

ttbn, quite right.
I read the comments and see the same old same old.
Forget this notion of educating males.
That is a narrow and quite frankly, shallow view of the situation.
Rapists are flawed mentally and emotionally.
Who cares?
I care more about the fact that we cannot identify one when we look around us.
Rape is part of an animals make-up, it's in our DNA.
Over time homo-sapiens have suppressed that particular act to the point where it is non-existent these days.
However, as we can see it surfaces every now and then.
I am offended at the suggestion that I and every other man have to change our way of thinking because we are proven instruments of rape.
Personally, I have been curious how a man can still perform (sexually) when he is struggling with the other person.
Not being a rapist, I find it incredible.
It has been said this act is arousing to rapists.
You have to be sick if you can perform under these aggressive conditions.
So let's get one thing straight.
MEN, are not rapists.
Rapists are mostly men.
All men are not sick.
Rapists are sick.
Now let's turn to the women.
In my many years on this earth I have watched while the real marsh-mellows of this world have taken over.
One of the worst things they have done was to promote women as being equals and changing the way we all think and act.
In promoting equality and therefore greater freedoms for women, they forgot to write a manual on their terms of reference.
Over time I see women trying to outdo men, in every endeavour.
The one they really took on board was drinking, as is continually being broadcast on TV and newspapers and so on.
Where-as the men have always been the drunken out of control slobs, the women were more mature and composed and looked on in disgust, and rightly so.
Well I'm sorry folks, but the women of today have embraised that filthy and disgusting lifestyle of the men of yesteryear and here we are today.

ALTRAV,

Good to see that you are still around. The sanctimonious, ignorant dog dust coming from people who don't think that they have to take any responsibility for their own safety is beyond the pale. Next week the media will be tired of the subject, and it has pretty much run its course here. People have worked themselves into a lather to demonstrate their 'caring' but they won't even remember the poor girls strange name in a few days.

I'm not aware of anyone saying that women don't have to
take responsibility for their actions on this discussion.
That's a given. All that is being asked is that men also
help out as women can't do it on their own - otherwise
the culture won't change. It is so sad to see the same
predictable finger-pointing reactions coming from the same
quarters. How on earth will things change if we are not even
able to talk to each other without shifting the blame?

Been a long time Foxy but it is time in my view to remind you again, it is pointless trying to make sense from some posters words,and no one will forget this woman or the thousands who suffer daily,dog dust? note for that poster, *if you both undervalue your opponents view and over value your own you may just defeat your self*

Histrionic personality disorder is characterized by constant attention-seeking, emotional overreaction, and suggestibility. A person with this condition tends to over-dramatize situations, which may impair relationships and lead to depression

ttbn,

For once in your life - look in the mirror.
And get rid of the kisses.
Do you like what you see?

We certainly don't.

It's up to you to make the changes.

We can' do it for you!

Stop crapping all over this forum - and then pretending
you didn't do anything!

You're certainly old enough and should know better.

Dear Belly,

Thank You for your advice.

I realise that there are all sorts of people on
a public forum whose toxicity is usually best avoided.
The ones who try to be Nasties.

Still, I keep hoping that perhaps they are capable
of some change. That's why I still keep trying.

The men,don't have to do anything.
We don't have to change.
We are quite happy with who we are.
We don't need to 'have a discussion'.
We all know what the problem is.
All this started when parents started pumping their daughters full of unrealistic tripe, because they didn't want to alienate their precious little pansy.
Too many moronic parents today want to be 'friends' with their children.
WRONG!
You are a parent!
As such, no-where in the book of parenting does it say, just because you are gutless and lack the stones to do your job as the adult, and therefore the authority in the family; does not mean you take the easy way out and facilitate your children turning them into what we see out there today.
I am incensed by the notion that the men have to somehow change their very beings to accommodate some mis-giuded arrogant low moral, low minded females, because they say so.
As much as my detractors want to talk me down, they cannot justify the modern females lifestyles and attitudes.
It appears that when females started pushing for equality, they began from the most unsavoury end of the spectrum, because I have yet to see them act like women, soft spoken and gentle of nature and demeanor.
So stop denigrating men and start lecturing and punishing women for their careless and reckless lifestyles.
The men have that one sown up and it is their domain not the females as we are witnessing the net result of trying to be something they are clearly NOT designed to be.

Dear foxy,

You are the only reason I am ever forced to read ttbn's posts and you really need to stop because even that is injurious to my sanity.

We all know how he hounded Belly away in his earlier guise. Toxic all round.

Ignore him and he becomes just a less likable version of runner. Yes that is indeed possible.

Dear Steele,

I don't think it was this guy who hounded Belly off.
I'm rather suspicious of some one else who's recently
returned as a new member under a different guise and
I wanted to warn Belly to be careful. Because there's
definitely a stench of the ocean around him.
But I could be wrong of-course.

Anyway, thanks for the warning. I shall tread carefully
from now on. Dogs are dogs - and sooner or later they
bite - and you recognise them for what they are.

ttbn, don't let the detractors drag you down and away from the light.
ie; Don't let them drag you off topic.
It is their way of attempting to point score.
I remind one and all to stay on topic.
To not do so only weakens your position as it shows a lack of factual fodder, so instead the MO is to deflect and try to win a side point off topic.
The way to approach these detractors is to respond with a question demanding they,
A; stick to topic, and
B; forcing them to respond, and in doing so, they have get back on topic.
I have to say how disappointed I am when I see someone actively coaxing someone to respond off topic.
'Look in the mirror'?
Off topic, therefore moot.
Keep quoting facts and not opinions, and you will win the day every time.

Dear Foxy,

Speaking of unsavories...

Dear ALTRAV,

Damn mate you really are a classic case of a deeply misogynistic, likely psychopathic, but kind of endearingly simple individual.

The top 5 traits of a psychopath are; lack of guilt/remorse, lack of empathy, lack of deep emotional attachments, narcissism and superficial charm.

Charm? Well four out of five aren't bad.

So let's explore how your mind would have possibly worked when if it had been you who saw her walking alone at night. Part of you would have been stirred at the thought of the possibility of a “soft spoken and gentle of nature and demeanor” women needing your protection. But then other thoughts would have crept in. Wasn't she exhibiting a “careless and reckless lifestyles” by being out and about after midnight without a male accompanying her? This wasn't her “domain”. She was likely a “mis-giuded (sic) arrogant low moral, low minded female”. One who would “started pushing for equality”. One who would refuse to “stop denigrating men”.

So ALTRAV how would you have decided to “punish” her?

Mate this is not a good look.

Dear Steele,

You have stuck to the topic

cont'd ...

Dear Steele,

It is very unsavory indeed. The bar on this forum
has definitely been lowered in the discussions.

I am seriously thinking twice about continuing
on here. The toxicity currently is palpable.
And responses are mind-boggling. I've been on this
forum for decades - and its never been this bad.
It only takes a few rotten apples to spoil it for
everyone else.

ALTRAV,

Left wing dropkicks don't faze me at all. They are the majority on OLO, and they all think the same way, so there's no need to wade through all their garbage. The more they rubbish me and other conservatives, the happier I am - we've got them rattled. They hate anyone who doesn't think the way they do, and I'm ok with that. I suppose 'indifference’ is the strongest emotion they rouse in me.

Foxy, Steele stuck to topic. You did not, therefore, moot.

Now Steele, good question.

How would I have decided to 'punish' her?

Well. If you had asked me this question before she took matters into her own hands.....................?

Too late for my opinion, but I think the answer is obvious and self prophesying.

I have already explained this very topic.

It does not need any further clarification.

Dear Foxy,

Yes it can get like that at times.

I suppose a place where people can anonymously air their thoughts without any real censure is bound to attract malcontents, especially after feeling emboldened post Abbott.

I do find it the mindset revealing and I'm not sure how many places give such a glimpse into this type of thinking. I spend a bit of time on Reddit and many of the comments here would have been down voted to oblivion thus unseen by most.

It might be better having the toxicity out in the light though. I think having Pauline Hansen in the senate affords us a similar glimpse of what this subset are thinking and that is a good thing.

I will admit to having a far shorter fuse than I use to on the forum. I have lost any patience in bringing people around if they lash out early in a thread. I tend to just serve it right back at them. So yes I am part of the problem. Let's hope things can return to a more even keel in the future.

Dear ALTRAV,

Yes pretty clear to me.

Filth.

Foxy, I do understand.
Please humour me and have look at QUORA.
I really think you would enjoy it, now I'm not taking the piss.
Just have look.
The reason I am suggesting this forum is because they have a 'Be Nice, Be Respectful' mantra or policy.
I find it frustrating for obvious reasons but I KNOW you would enjoy it immensely.
I am not jerking you around, promise.
Have a look.
To show I am serious, could you please let me know what you think.

Steele, what do you mean, 'filth'.

I don't get it, I can't relate that word to my answer.

Please not trying to tell any one how to suck eggs, read as usual, all posts, and thanks for the warning, but at the time I left I had begun a project, *NOT TO CONTINUE* VERBAL bullying it return to offenders, we most of us, know the totally unfair,hurt that was done to this forum, by what was an unneeded post, nothing to do with me,still a front row forward, but relax no longer a hot head,we can never ever change some,but we should know changing the behavior of some humans has to be a do it your self project

Dearest Fopxy,

Please stay on OLO, you brighten up every day with your fundamental kindness and ability to see the good in, well, most people. We don't always agree but your gentle and civil approach is always encouraging.

Maybe take a day or two off if you really feel you have to, but please, come back ASAP !

Much love,

Joe

Joe,

As I have just said elsewhere, I worry about you. Has that woman done a dummy-spit again that you are begging her to stay. I haven't been looking at her know-all, nagging posts for some time, and don't care what she does. She certainly has you fooled - that, or you've been over-doing the cranky water. Of course, I'm only guessing that “Fopxy” us the person I think you are addressing. I say good riddance no matter what you call her.

Good Afternoon Everyone,

I've thoroughly enjoyed my morning at the Beauty Salon.
Had my hair-cut into a gorgeous pixie cut. Then went out
shopping for a new pair of full-length boots. And now here
I am.

I apologise if I gave you guys the wrong impression. I
have no intention of leaving the forum. A few "difficult"
people are not going to drive me away. I'm used to dealing
with all sorts of "difficult" people in my line of work.
It's all par for the course. However, I will take Belly's
advice - which is excellent BTW. - I shall try to change
my own attitude as well. Best as I can.

ALTRAV, - to you - Thanks for the suggestion. But I do like
it here too much. And no-one's perfect (not even me) (smile).

Dear Joe - You always know the right things to say during
difficult times. Thank You.

ttbn - Sorry to disappoint. But this "riddence" ain't leaving
just yet. No dummy-spits though - just keeping up the
annoyance for you. Now go take whatever medication you need
old chap.

Now back to the topic (sorry Big Nana).

Here goes...

As I wrote earlier - when young men are tragically killed
in one punch attacks an entire city has its nightlife shut
down. When a young woman is brutally raped and murdered women
are told to "take responsibility for their own safety."
Which most women do anyway. The whole point of this discussion
was to ask men to be part of solving the problem. It seemed
relatively simple at the time - but goodness me what reactions
followed. And as I pointed out earlier - how on earth are we
going to solve the problem if we aren't even able to talk to
each other?

Dear Steele,

Have I told you recently that you're terrific?

Hi Ttbn,

I try to believe in the good in people, 9including Fopxy. Mcock my flat fingfers if you like but I'm always impressed that Foxpy is polite, civil and considerate even when she disagrees with someone. The point surely about disagreeing with someone is that you must let them have their say, as much as you yourself expect to have from them, and to treat their comments as worthy of serious consideration and total demolition.

Criticism is not necessarily hate speech - I do think that Fpoyx went a little bit overboard equating the two (with respect, Fxopy) but after all, if criticism of something is valid from one person's point of view, then all polite and civil criticism and disagreement of anything from any other point of view is too.

Cheers,

Joe

PS. I fall in love with most women I have anything to do with, even those on-line, so yes, i have fallen under XfxoFpy's spell, but who could blame me ?

Loudmouth, I have to say it.
Personal attacks or praise are off topic.
If one says 'kudos' or 'good for you' or 'I agree', they are 'on topic' their praise or condemnation always has a connection to topic.
If I agree with someone I give them praise but I also like to add reasons why, so it does not appear that I am sucking up to them, for no good reason.
You see, even this comment is on topic, as it involves the 'changing of human behaviour'.

Foxy, that's OK.
I only thought that as some of US on OLO can be a little more forceful than is generally appreciated or warranted by some more sensitive commentors, I genuinely thought that QUORA was abetter fit for you.
I was not sending signals, just that it can get a little heated here some times, and I know that QUORA, much to my frustration, won't stand for it and censure the most ridiculous comments, to the point of dis-belief.
Are you aware of QUORA?
Have you heard of it before?
I'm just curious what others think about it.
I suppose it could be said that this comment constitutes the changing of human behaviour, or at least an attempt to.

Hi ALTRAV,

Thank You for explaining.

I have used quotes from QUORA in the past on this forum.

However, I have so many friends here - people that have
become like family to me. I love them all and because
I've been here for so long I can't imagine going any
where else really. Also - don't get me wrong - I don't
expect all of us to agree with each other - goodness me,
that would be simply an echo chamber - and totally boring.
My only objection is the nasty personal assumptions that
some make - and the personal attacks that go with them.
That lowers the bar for everyone. No one likes or supprots
an illogical and abusive debater - and as I've learnt myself,
I have to try not to react - if the right buttons are pushed.

My views are not set in concrete - and I have learned so much
from people that I initially have not agreed with - people
like - Shadow Minister for example, Banjo, runner,
individual, and even ttbn.
They've all made me take another look and try to
see things from their perspectives.

Anyway, Thanks again for taking the time to bother to explain
things to me. I do appreciate it very much.

Dear ALTRAV,

Why filth?

Well for a couple of reasons.

Firstly you talk about her “matters into her own hands”. It wasn't her hands around her throat but those of her killer while she was brutally raped and strangled to death.

It was not her fault, IT WAS HIS.

Secondly you do not dispute you felt she needed punishing. This was what the rapist thought. He was not content with brutally raping her but decided to take her life as well. He obviously though she was little more than a maggot and that it was of little consequence that she was killed, made to pay for her sins.

To a certain degree these are your thoughts as well aren't they. From what you have related to us on this forum it isn't a far stretch to imagine you being a danger to this woman if you were there on the night. Now granted you may have played it up a little for the audience, you certainly are immature enough to do such a thing, but your misogyny drips from nearly every post.

So far I've read only a few actions that can be used to deter this kind of crime. One of them I don't think got very much attention though. Why not pay for a taxi service for women out at night.

If you want, do what's done in my home. Here there is a problem with drunk driving, so to fight off that ongoing accident, there's a shuttle service for students put on by students to take people home who've had a few drinks. It's volunteerily done and I'm sure there's a wait time to be picked up, but it's better then nothing.

If you all want to do something simular specifically for women at night, or for those who don't drive (possibly for the good conscience of being responsible and not driving drunk) then maybe it's time to sort out your own shuttle service put on by volunteers. Put an effort to the project and push for people to take part in it. Maybe talk to a university campus to start the effort.

Are there any other practical solutions besides a demand for more people to talk about the matter? So far I know of only a few brought up. Women staying safe, traveling in groups, not going home alone, parents teaching their kids to be safe, and taxi services paid by rich politicians.

Seriously, if this matter actually matters what are some practical solutions. Go on a limb and be creatively outrageous if nothing else. It might help motivate other options that are more reasonable.

Enough bickering and politicking, this is a real issue to sort out.

While it is my view offenders should never be released remember that may see them always kill just to stop evidence being given against them, yes we do need cultural changes, and no not defending men here, but some women too need to reconsider a fact, rights are no insurance against becoming a victim,our near neighbor has a women's bus, and we call it a third world country? no man may ride on it, maybe an answer can be found there?taxi rides home funded by who? drinkers maybe.even then not ever woman would use that service

Steeley, in your haste to be the good guy, you, like many others absolutely refuse to apportion any of the blame on this female.
What possible reason can you give to justify what this stupid woman did by deciding to walk 4km alone in the dark of night, and to add more negativity to her attitude or arrogance, through a park none-the-less.
Now before you run off at the mouth stop and think.
Why?
Why would she do all these stupid things?
Was she that arrogant that she thought she was invincible or untouchable?
Was she so naive that she believed she could go against the advise of nearly every person on earth?
Some people have even dared to blame her boyfriend for not escorting her to her door.
Did you ever stop to think that because of the maggots today, and their 'I'm equal to any man' crap, she might have told him, had he suggested to see her home, as some have done, that she does not need any guy to look out for her because she knew what she was doing.
So as harsh as you may find my comments, if she had been raised with a more chivalrous upbringing and less of a self righteous one, she just might still be alive today.
This is precisely the kind of scenario that makes angry.
The sheer stupidity and arrogance of so many people who think that just by standing there and saying, men should stop raping women, expecting that theses rapists are going to suddenly stop, is just mind boggling.
If we don't man up and accept where the blame lies in these situations, it will just keep on happening.
Instead of challenging me for highlighting the facts, how about convincing women that they are beholding to men at times, and if someone wants to open a door or ogle them or whatever, gets up these maggots, that makes them snap at guys for being respectful, well, too bad.
Had she gone a different route maybe nothing would have happened, but we'll never know now will we?

ALTRAV you walk a brave path, telling a truth as you have can bring the PC roof down on you, my mind has not yet caught up with my body,s age, bit fearless but not stupid,even in my youth such a walk was some thing I did only with great care, yes! the murderer is was and always will be vermin, but our brains are there to be used

Its a strange world we live in. We have mufti's who say women not completely covered are pieces of meat and then the regressives demanding their right to view porn (only white conservatives are devious). Regressives were warned decades ago about the affects of porn but like pig headed academics, they stuck their head in the sand mainly because they did not want to stop indulging themselves. Now we have sbs as a Government funded porn station. The reality is that most don't want answers to making places safer because it would cost them a bit more than making stupid insulting statements about men. Yeah men are the problem , the emasculated men who suck up to sick feminsist ideology. Ironic that the meetoo movement was largely started as a result of leftist champions of the 'cultural' arts and films.

Belly, runner, good to see some people still have a back bone and not afraid of some words, like the left.
Belly, I must admit, I am a little dazed at the total silence from the lefty soft cocks in response to my post.
You and most of us with a voice and balls have the courage to say it like it is, the truth.
It might upset a few.
It might even anger a few.
As my partners in crime, 'Ben Shapiro and Milo Yiannopoulos would say, 'TOO BAD'.
If what I said is untrue then correct me.
If what I say offends you, Too bad.
This is a perfect example where PC is a danger in changing human behaviour.
I am heartened by the fact I did not get any negative comments challenging my post.
It gives me hope that the people are beginning to understand the difference between comments meant to insult and ones which convey an insulting message.
It appears by this post as an example that we just may be finally winning the anti PC war.

I know it's a bit late in coming back to this topic, but I thought I would add this comment to this post as I believe it is relevant to it rather than start a new one.
I may yet do just that.
But for now; I read today, (10/07/18) in the West Australian, a brilliant piece by Andrew Bolt, page 10 in the Opinion Column.
Essentially he is bagging women for bagging men.
Explaining, men have had enough, I know I have, and he goes on to give a very hard and to the point run down on females and their relentless and totally mis-giuded cause in their anti-male campaign.
I love it.
He comes out hard and fast and puts these moronic maggots fair and squarely back decades, and in doing so destroyed the last semblance of credibility they had left.
Good on ya Bolt.

ALTRAV your left lives in the back of a very old VW Combi and holds its meetings in an old phone box,yes it is fashionable to claim they are the reason for any thing that is wrong, if I started highlighting the madness of the extreme right I instantly would be branded lefty and worse, in this modern world a Social Democrat is a seeker of fairness, honesty, and a better world, being left of Trump is the default position for humanity

Belly, granted, maybe I am misusing the lefty tag.
I'm starting to wonder what it really means any more.
The system has changed the terms of reference of such things since they have become fashionable pieces of conversation or subject matter.
I know what I feel like saying, but I don't think I know what they are anymore. ie; what is a lefty these days?
My take on them is probably not the current description any more.
Can you give me a current description of a lefty, and maybe I can be more precise in my future discussions about them.
Thank you.