“Israeli army kills Palestinian nurse in Gaza border protest”, screams a Sydney Morning Herald headline. The nurse was the 119th killed assailing the Israeli border since the terrorist organisation, Hamas, sent gullible Palestinian men, women and children to do their dirty work for them against the sovereign state of Israel.

Razan Al-Najar, to my knowledge, is the only casualty of the assault against Israel, of the total 119 killed, to be named; and, of course, she is a nurse. Everybody loves a nurse. To cut to the chase, this is another piece of Hamas propaganda to tug at the emotions of Westerners, dutifully passed on by stooges in the West’s own Left media.

Of course, the 'report’ might not even be true. Nota bene the unconvincing TV performances of “gassed” and “dead” children. And, guess what? The people who reported this incident “requested anonymity”.

Even if this reported incident is the mere sympathy-seeking propaganda that we are so used to, any unnecessary, pointless death is regrettable; and all deaths at the Israeli border are definitely unnecessary and pointless.

All you have to do is read this story and see the photos to see where the problem comes from.

They are being taught from early ages violence is right.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6434312/gaza-nursery-children-jihadis-kill-jews/

WARPING THEIR MINDS Gaza nursery school kids made to dress as armed jihadis and pretend to kill Jews during sick graduation show

To the sounds of loud explosions and gunfire, the children - dressed in uniforms of the Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades - attack a building before placing a sign reading 'Israel has fallen'

kids under five dressed as heavily-armed Jihadis and storming an Israeli building.

The youngsters take to the stage in camouflage gear and gas masks carrying mock assault rifles and handguns.

The children at the Al-Hoda nursey simulate Islamic militants attacking a building on ‘Al-Quds Street’ and capturing a child dressed in the stereotypical garb of an Orthodox Jew and ‘killing’ a boy dressed as an Israeli soldier.

Smoke even goes off in the cardboard building on stage as they launch their attack in the bizarre end-of-term show.

To the sounds of loud explosions and gunfire, the children - dressed in uniforms of the Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades - attack the building, placing a sign reading “Israel has fallen” in Hebrew and Arabic on the back of the “soldier,” who was prone on the ground.

He is then ‘shot’ as they leave the stage with their ‘hostage’ thrown over the shoulder of one of the pre-school performers.

Then some of the children perform on stage, with an address by the late PLO leader Yasser Arafat playing on the speakers.

Last year the kids also staged a mock terror attack against Israeli forces as part of their end-of-term play.

The footage, which was posted on the kindergarten's YouTube channel, included Hebrew lyrics threatening Israelis with missiles and terror attacks and mocking Israeli soldier Oron Shaul, whose body has been held by Hamas since 2014.
- - -
This sentence says it all quote "Omar Fora, the head of the nursery association and a leader of the Islamic Jihad,"

Shooting of medical personal is a war crime under
the Geneva Convention. Medical workers should not be
a target.

The world is calling out for an investigation of the
Israeli military's behaviour after a Palestinian nurse -
21 year old Razan-al-Najar, a volunteer medic was shot
by Israeli forces as she was running (in her uniform)
with her arms over her head to help a casualty.

Thousands of people attemded the 21 year old's funeral
on Saturday. And the entire world has reacted - demanding
answers - on what basis did the soldiers shoot her in
the chest and kill her? What a sad situation this is.
Over 12,000 Palestinians wounded. The conditions in
Gaza are deplorable - unbelievable. And the world sits
back and watches.

Israel does need to calibrate its use of force and Hamas
needs to prevent incidents at the fence. Escalation will
only cost more lives.

The following link explains in more detail:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Gaza_border_protests

Foxy Quote "Hamas needs to prevent incidents at the fence."

That is not going to happen they deliberately do it they consider it a big success the more people that are killed or wounded because then they just sit back cry victim and let the media do the fighting for them.

Look at any protest and look for the high leaders they are not there they are safely somewhere else so they don't care.

Just like the generals in WW1 sitting in bunkers at home telling the canon fodder what to do, couple of machine guns over there just all get up and run towards them, most of you will get killed but we the generals will be heroes and military geniuses if you succeed.

Rubber bullets still exist no need for this Israel should be better than this both sides will tell you God is on their side?

Send the PC compliant section of the Oz Army to deal with the Palestinians. When the show ends up in the expected proverbial heap, send in our real troops to help the israelis.

Dear Philip S.,

It certainly is a complex situation.
I wish that none of us had to take sides.
And yet we do. We choose whose side we're on.

Yet -

Most of us think that Hamas is a terrorist organisation.
Most of us support a two-state solution.
We feel sympathy for the Palestinians and the conditions
the people live under. Most of us wish that this conflict
would end.

The following link explains - picking a side:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/picking-a-side-in-israel-palestine_b_5602701.html

Foxy,

While it is illegal to target medical personnel, the caveat is that they must be clearly defined as being so. Note that in spite of this, in conflicts many medical personnel are unintentional casualties.

This attempted storming of the Israeli border by Hamas using civilians as human shields needs to be investigated. No protest goes ahead in Gaza without the blessing of Hamas.

P.S. most of those killed are Hamas activists.

Not trying to be insensitive or callous in any way but I do want to ask this, is it proven absolutely that this poor woman was killed by Israeli fire or was it cross-fire ?
I'm asking this because it is recorded that the instigators use human shields to incite greater emotion/violence.

Dear Shadow Minister,

The young lady was wearing a medical uniform - she
was shot in the chest (hardly accidentally).
And an explanation is due.

Yes, just like the Israeli forces, so Hamas has a lot to
answer.

Read the link I gave earlier.

Taking sides in this issue helps no-one.

Nothing is proved, individual; it's a media report from very dubious sources. The incident might be true, or it might not. Remember, people from this area have a history of conning.

Dear individual,

Haaratz - the Israeli news agency - has reported it to be
true as have other Israeli sources. As has the LA Times,
The New York Times, and Reuters. Not dubious sources at
all.

Foxy Quote "I wish that none of us had to take sides.
And yet we do. We choose whose side we're on."

Just because a person writes comments that point out the bad points about a certain side in a conflict does not mean they take the side of the other party.

I have had very little respect for Israel for years after seeing video of there troops hitting Palestinian on the back with hammers to cripple them, as well as the numerous assassinations of people worldwide they have carried out.

Dear Philip S.,

So glad to read that you have a balanced view
point on this controversial problem.
I wish there were more people like you.

Hold a child who has been shot at this fence in your arms, watch it die there,then tell me needless deaths are OK, yes Hamas is a terrorist group, and yes truth is the first victim in the middle east,but some one even said that young lady was shot, in my view murdered, in the cross fire? what cross fire?who ever said those shot had guns? or fired them?murder, in the name of anti terrorism is never OK

Nobody was "murdered". Israel is defending itself from people whose philosophy is that Israel has no right to exist. Enough of the anti-Semitism and yabber about 'disproportionate force'.

Only when it is accepted that the evil rests in the underground hideouts of Gaza and not the streets of Jerusalem, will progress for all parties, particularly the Palestinians, be possible.

Only when Israel and the Palestinians will have
to meet face-to-face, listen to each other's
grievances and negotiate with honesty. Only then
and on the condition that both Israel and the
Palestinian state achieve safety and security will
this conflict be resolved. Neither side has a monopoly
on suffering, but only one party has the power to end
the occupation and to recognise that Israel and Palestine
are historically destined to share the same homeland.
At present Israel's vision is a concrete wall, with Jews on
one side and as many Arabs as possible on the other.

BTW: Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic and saying
so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium
and international sanction - out of all proportion
to any other party in the Middle East - is anti-Semitic,
and not saying so is dishonest.

Dear Belly,

You're absolutely right.

Shooting medical personnel wearing medical uniforms
is considered a war crime by the Geneva Convention.
And shooting a medical volunteer in the chest -
who ran with her arms raised above her head to help
a casualty clearly amounts to murder.

Hi there FOXY...

I hate to disillusion you, but the 'Geneva Convention' is rarely ever considered when the ordinance is flying about. It's a case of kill or be killed, during a contact. It's true that after the smoke and stink of battle subsides - You'll do a body count, ensure all weapons & booby traps are removed; search the deceased; and then those still alive, they're often given pain killer's, like ampules (needle attached) of morphine, until they die.

Working in tandem with some of our allies, they'll often head shot those individuals who were badly wounded with unsurvivable wounds and beyond any medical aid. You mention the Geneva Convention - To the average soldier in theatre, he'll just give you a very very odd look indeed, as he should. Geneva is a very long way from the heat and humidity of the jungles of South Vietnam!

To be very truthful with you, I took more notice of the Hague Convention; 'The Minimum Standard of Treatment of Person's in Custody', while a police officer, than anything remotely to do with the G.C! I'm very sorry FOXY, I say with respect, your knowledge of war is seen through rose coloured glasses I believe?

As I really do not have any knowlege of the Israeli show, I asked a religious person a couple of days ago what it is that causes the israelis to be in constant hot water.
I was informed that the Jews handed Jesus to the Romans & from then on their troubles began.
So, 2000 years later they're still in hot water. One would have thought that was sufficient time to come to a compromise.
Wouldn't it be easier to one's religious views private the no-one would be any wiser & the quarrels would cease. Running around with all the religious garments etc on full display is nothing short of deliberately challenging those who don't share that religion. So, they get what they ask for. There really should be a fine for promoting or displaying religion in public.

unarmed, and killed not murder? today it is Arabs, tomorrow it could be us humanity should value every life, are we being hardened to think this is OK? some of us are

Foxy,

Even if the nurse was wearing a vest, the question is Whether she was deliberately targeted:

Unanswered questions are:

1 Whether the bullet was aimed at someone else and either went through someone else or ricocheted (remember the woman killed in the Sydney siege)

2 Was the bullet fired by an Israeli or a Hamas activist (There were shots fired from the Palestinian side too)

3 Was the nurse trying to rescue a fallen comrade, or was she more actively involved in trying to breach the fence?

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/1002880989448822784

However, Considering that all protests in Gaza are either directly organised or vetted by Hamas, the main question is why is Hamas using civilians to assist Hamas activists in trying to breach the border between Gaza and Israel?

Dear O Sung Wu,

Israel signed up to the Geneva Convention.

However countries are sovereign states. They don't have to
follow any international treaty. Any governing bodies
(i.e. the UN) do not have any real power to enforce these
treaties. Participation is entirely voluntary by each country.

That said, there may be impacts if a country violates a treaty
in the form of economic sanctions, outright war, or cut off
of economic support. Similar to how a country doesn't
have to follow a treaty, other countries don't have to
trade, support, or respect the sovereignty of the violating
country if they don't want to.

126 signatories of the Geneva Convention have called on
Israelis and Palestinians to respect humanitarian law.
The signatories reaffirm the illegality of Israeli
settlements. However, Israel chooses not to recognise
this as it has no intention of stopping its expansionist
policies.

Dear Shadow Minister,

According to news sources:

1) The bullet did not ricochet. It was a straight shot into
her chest and killed her.

2) The bullet was fired by an Israeli sniper.

3) The nurse was a volunteer medic in full uniform who was
trying to help a casualty.

I agree with you that Israel needs to tone down its
excessive use of force and Hamas needs to tone down its
protesters. Continued escalation will only result in more
loss of lives.

All I can say to that FOXY, those erudite gentlemen situated in beautiful Geneva should attire themselves in a set of 'greens' before they establish these edicts for others to follow, in the heat of battle. Much like the UN, relatively useless.

o sung wu,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my impression that the Geneva Convention applies only to wars between uniformed troops, and not to terrorists, which these people currently atracking Israel are. I do know that in two world wars, anyone not in uniform, but engaging in hostile activities, when captured, stood to be summarily shot. Talking about the Geneva Convention these days, when there is no declared war, seems to be a load of crap to me.

Foxy where did that information you quote come from?

Did someone from Geneva go & check the facts?

Or was it from a Hamas press release. As the lady in question is in Hamas territory, I believe it would be from them.

Please tell me, when you started to believe anything a terrorist organisation uses for propaganda. Personally I think believing anything Hamas puts out in their propaganda is being about as naïve as anyone could ever become.

Hi there TTBN...

To be perfectly honest with you, when we were sent to Malaysia & then S.V. we were under an edict called 'Rules of Engagement', which I would imagine mirror that, of the Geneva Convention. Under the Geneva Convention, I'm not entirely sure who, or what it covers, and under what circumstance it's applied. I suspect being uniformed forces, sent from a sovereign Nation, we'd be under the rules of the Convention? Not some small specialised group of say SAS, sent specially as interdictor's to destroy a small terrorist cell.

Most know it's a strict set of rules on how we're to conduct military operations. The humanity aspect; taking of prisoners; outlawing all forms of physical torture; rules for interrogation of the enemy - Number, rank & name is all that's required to be given, upon being captured by either the enemy forces, or we capturing them?

And if one is captured inside enemy territory while wearing civilian attire, and being armed; you're considered to be in the act of spying. And a spy as such, after exhaustive interrogation, are generally shot, without receiving the benefit of any legal process.

Undercover operations & search and destroy missions, by various members of Special Forces; SAS, SBS, Green Beret's, etc, do tend to muddy the waters somewhat with respect to the G C etc. - wearing almost nothing but civilian attire in most cases. I don't know their 'Rules of Engagement' having never served with them, they're far too tough for me.

Dear Hasbeen,

The information came from newspaper sources -
the Israeli Jewish News,
Haartz, Reuters, LA Times, New York Times, Washington Post,
to quote just a few.

Dear O Sung Wu,

Here is a link that explains a few things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israel_settlements

I realised that it's very unpopular for some people to support
the Palestinians. It's much easier and safer to be pro-Israel
than to be pro-Arab. Arabs are continually associated with
terrorism and violence, being primitive and anti-Western. This
view is so ingrained. One has to coninuously explain and defend
why one is taking that particular position.

People seem to make no distinction between an occupied people
and those who occupy them. Israel talks about the right
of self-defence. How can an occupier claim self-defence but
deny the same right to those who are occupied and have the
right of self-defence with whatever means are available to them?

In any case - an important element in any peace process is
the international community and its mechanisms for restraining
conflict among its members. Trade, travel, and telecommunications
have made the nations of the world more interdependent than ever
before.

The human population is spread among a series of sovereign
independent states most of them with their own armed forces -
and so there is a built-in potential for warfare whenever
two nations have conflicting interests. Therefore some
reliable method is needed to limit conflict among
sovereign states.

There are two such elements for international peace-making
in place. The first is the UN which whether you agree with
their positions it does provide a forum for world opinion and a
mechanism for conflict resolution.

The second is a growing body of international law that
specifies the right and obligations that nations have
towards one another - particularly with respect to aggression.

A major difficulty with international peace-making is that
the UN and the rulings of its World Court are voluntary
(as explained earlier). The UN is most effective, in fact,
when the superpowers are able to agree on a course of action
and mobilize their blocs to support it.

cont'd ...

I made a typo with the link - here it is again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements

If they built a fence 20ks from my house in every direction to fence me and my neighbours in, it probably wouldn't restrict me too much because I don't usually venture too far from my local area.
But you can bet I would visit the 'border fence' and abuse the hell out of whoever saw fit to build it on the other side.
If they tried to steal more land, on my side of the fence including killing innocents and bulldozing homes, my friends and family;
You can BET that I most definitely would take up arms against my oppressors, including teaching the young ones to fight and oppose oppression, and to run Israeli's down in cars and slice their throats in the streets. I'd devote eternity to attacking and hindering these peoples plans to kill my people and steal my land, and any nation that supported them would become my enemy.

Thankfully, I'm fortunate to have not been unlucky enough to have been born in Gaza.

Foxy,

"1) The bullet did not ricochet. It was a straight shot into
her chest and killed her.

2) The bullet was fired by an Israeli sniper"

How do you know?

Belly,

Have you ever seen a rubber bullet?

Are there any records as to how many times the israelis started to thow rocks & mortars at the Palestinians so that the Palestinians were forced to attack the israelis ?

Dear foxy,

You write;

“I realised that it's very unpopular for some people to support
the Palestinians. It's much easier and safer to be pro-Israel
than to be pro-Arab.”

I'm sorry but no it isn't. Most of the people I know certainly recognise who the under dog is in this fight and being regular Australians tend to side with the Palestinians. The more vociferous old ratbags along with the genuinely perverse who inhabit the general section of the OLO forum are hardly indicative of the sentiment out there.

And both sides of Australian politics have for decades condemned Israel for its brutality. Right now we have a government who is so terrified they might get picked on by that orange buffoon that they have tossed aside any semblance of standing up for the underdog. Instead they paint the most powerful, nuclear armed rouge state in the ME and try and convince the world it is they who are the victim.

You also said this;

“Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic and saying
so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium
and international sanction - out of all proportion
to any other party in the Middle East - is anti-Semitic,
and not saying so is dishonest.”

It is not out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East at all. You name one country which has imprisoned close to 2 million people in the world's largest open aired prison, who have slaughtered thousands in their regular 'mowing the grass', who have occupied a land and moved tens of thousands of their own population into that land, have dispossessed 800,000 Palestinians who are seeking the right to return to their homes.

This has been going on for over 50 years and UN sanction after UN sanction which normally would have been imposed on a similar rouge state is blocked by the US when it is done to Israel. It is pure frustration that brings the UN back to try again and again and again, thus far with few results.

Foxy

Watch Bridgette Gabriel, the well spoken Lebanese woman, who came to America
after spending 7years in bomb shelters as a child, because of the cruelty of the Palestinians, who blew up her home.

https://youtu.be/SrYzPHyTZuYf

you'll recognise the truth in her words.

Actually, there is no such thing as 'Palestinians', but the bed wetters and Leftists keep ignoring the fact. These so-called Palestinians wandered in from somewhere in the Middle East. They have been stateless in living memory, and they look like being stateless forever. Someone decided to call them Palestinian for identification purposes, but they are just Arabs of some sort.

These people could have had a state long ago if they had simply accepted Israel's right to exist. The British, in particular, worked very hard for them. But, no. Like most ingrates who become used to being 'victims’ and pandered to by the ignorant and the anti-Semitic, they became useful stooges for Israel’s enemies. But, natural justice and Israel are keeping them in their place. Oops! They don't really have a place

Dear Steele,

"...Singling out Israel" read that quote again - you've totally
misunderstood what was being said.

Thanks.

As for the rest of my post - the media and government in
Australia supports Israel - not the Palestinians.

Dear Is Mise,

How do I know - Jewish newspaper and other reputable media
sources.

Foxy,

It is not difficult nor unpopular to be pro-Palestinian, it just needs a profound selective amnesia (to completely forget all the war crimes and aggression on the part of the palestinians) with a smidgeon of anti-semitism that you will find embedded in the left whinge parties along with other failed beliefs such as Marxism and identity politics.

That Gaza is sealed off from Israel so harshly is due to the decades of Hamas and the PLO using any relaxation of border control to send terrorists through the border to bomb, stab and kill Israeli civilians and using foreign aid to restock with guns and rockets.

Peaceful negotiations can take place once Hamas and Fatah agree to negotiate without wildly unrealistic pre conditions.

Australians who are pro-Palestinian really should take a hard look at themselves. These evil Muslims are sworn to wipe out a country just like Australia. When the Australian government and opposition bilaterally support Israel, and always have, because it makes sense to support countries with values the same as ours against Islam, you really have to call into question the mental states of the pro-Palestinian mob.

Foxy,

Then how does anyone know?

For it to have been a sniper's bullet someone would have had to have been behind the sniper to see where he/she aimed.

The bullet could have been a ricochet, how to tell without a forensic examination of the projectile?

There is a solution to the problem, let all the peace loving Muslim nations take the "Palestinians" as refugees.
Problem solved and they can all live happily together under Islamic rule.

Dear Foxy,

I believe I'm going to need you help with this one.

I did as you suggested and read the quote again and I think age must be catching up with me because for the life of me I can't see how I have “totally misunderstood what was being said”.

You might find this enlightening. Roy Morgan polled Australians on the Israel/Palestine question and the results showed markedly more support for the Palestinians over the Israelis. Over 60% oppose the illegal settlements, over 70% want Palestine recognised as an independent state and over half deem the BDS movement as reasonable.

Just to illustrate how toxically one sided this can get just have a look at CHERFUL's post about Brigitte Gabriel. He gets her name wrong but those niceties are tossed out the window when you are determined to condone murderers.

Brigitte Gabriel is a Lebanese Chrisitian who worked as a news anchor on the ultra-conservative Pat Robertson's Christian network. Her claim to be a journalist is rather fraught as her Wikipedia page shows no qualifications in that area. Her story of spending 7 years in a bomb shelter avoiding snipers just to get a drink is absolute rubbish and multiple checks of her story find deep inconsistencies. But she is being paid hansomely for being a mouth piece for the 'largest grassroots anti-muslim' organisation in the States.

CHERFUL claims her made up tribulations were “because of the cruelty of the Palestinians, who blew up her home”. Look how it reads, as though they had done this on purpose. Yet even in Gabriel's own account in 1975 a Palestinian militia bombed a military facility near Marjayoun, destroying her childhood home. She talks of being helped by Christian militia.

Cont...

Cont...

But what is utterly sickening is while CHERFUL is using it to condemn 'cruel Palestinians' there is no mention of the terrible slaughter of mainly Palestinian women and children who perished in the Sabra and Shatila Massacres later in the war. The refugee camps were surrounded by the Israeli army then the militia who were trained and supplied by Israel went in and slaughtered around 3000 people. There was little resistance as the PLO had withdrawn from the area under the supervision of the Multinational Force.

By CHERFUL's metric the incidental bombing a family home is allows the charge of cruelty then how much more should these massacres condemn Israel and the Christian militias?

Do you not see the disconnect?

Do you not see the disconnect?
SteelReedux,
The disconnect from logic there has been clear as daylight to the rest of the world for centuries, the only ones who can't see it are the people who don't want to see it..

Dear Steele,

I made an attempt to try to maintain a balance in this
complex conflict for a change - and I was hoping that
this would be understood. To try to see the situation
from both sides. How else will this conflict be resolved
if each side only see things from their side only? And does
not recognise the suffering of the other side. I now
realise that I was being naive. So I'll just shut up.

Dear Foxy,

You wrote;

“I made an attempt to try to maintain a balance in this
complex conflict for a change - and I was hoping that
this would be understood.”

But don't you see that so many of us end up taking the stance, as you are, of trying to be even to both sides despite what is happening on the ground.. I did it myself for so many years and I understand that it comes from a good place, but I was hoping to illustrate, unfortunately in perhaps an abrupt manner for which I apologise, that finding any equivalence between the two sides is doing a grave injustice to a group of brave but embattled people.

I now find those equivalences as downright unseemly.

Look at this quote from you;

“Israel does need to calibrate its use of force and Hamas
needs to prevent incidents at the fence. Escalation will
only cost more lives.”

To “calibrate its use of force” is a euphemism for ease up on the shooting of unarmed protestors.

The Gazan people have faced years and years of imprisonment and crippling blockades. They have had water treatment plants and power plants deliberately targeted to inflict want and misery on a million and a half people. They have ceased suicide bombings, have stopped virtually all of the rocket fire, have agreed to the PA taking a strong role in Gaza yet there is no sign of relief from their trauma. So they protest as they have every right to do given their mistreatment, largely peacefully in the beginning at the fence, yet they are met with lethal force with many killed and many hundreds wounded, some maimed for life.

Cont..

cont..

I hope you might take the time to read this piece in Mondoweiss and tell me what you think of the points being made.

“Those empathetic to Palestinians toil in unhappy corners of the internet, fending off trolls eager to dazzle with age-old vitriol.  But decorated professionals recite the same discourses throughout corporate media, the veneer of respectability making them even more grotesque. Anti-Arab racism underlies defense of Israel. The racism isn’t marginal, either; it’s the lingua franca of American punditry. Many of the people who defend Israel are consciously racist (clearly), but others dehumanize Arabs and Muslims by reproducing unexamined assumptions about Israel’s moral or civilizational superiority.”
http://mondoweiss.net/2018/06/defending-israel-actually/

It is really hard to resist those “decorated professionals”. A while ago I pulled myself up from constantly using quotes from predominate Jewish people about the injustices perpetrated on the Palestinians. What I was really doing was bowing to the notion that Palestinian voices have far less value than a dissenting Jewish one. They don't.

If I am unable to challenge you to examine the preconceptions even a good hearted person like yourself brings to this issue then it will be a great pity but will respect your decision.

Kind regards.

the shooting of unarmed protestors.

I have heard of people getting killed by stones being thrown & people surviving being shot.
So, if these 'unarmed' ceased throwing stones then wouldn't the other side cease firing also ?
Surely, they can't be that disturbed & provoke just for the sake of provoking , or are they ?

So let me ask, how many people here think it's ok to shoot your neighbours if they approach the fence the separates the two properties?

Hello, does nobody here not comprehend that your neighbours can do whatever the hell they want on THEIR side of the fence?

That it's only WHEN they come ONTO your property in hostility that you have any right to act against them.

Furthermore, Israel should build a buffer on its side of the fence and UN troops or observers at least should be stationed on Israel / Palestinian borders.
No chance of this thanks to Nikki Haley's vetos.

Here's some interesting statistics:
http://ifamericaknew.org

Armchair Critic,
Terribly sad figures indeed. Do you have any graphs that show which side instigates more conflicts on a daily basis that bring about the reprisals that result in this terrible toll ?

Neighbours cannot do “anything they like on their side of the fence”. In our society, their are by-laws and common law protecting us from neighbours. Israel’s neighbours are pelting them with missiles; they often fire rockets; they tunnel under the fence; they want Israelis to move or die. There are rules and regulations dealing with your right to peaceful enjoyment of your property. Given your thoughts, AC, I would not like to live next to you.

Dear individual,

You wrote to AC,

"Terribly sad figures indeed. Do you have any graphs that show which side instigates more conflicts on a daily basis that bring about the reprisals that result in this terrible toll ?"

Sure, let's start with the side which determinedly rips away any future of a Palestinian state by continuing a program of destroying Palestinian homes and encouraging their own citizens to illegally settle on the resultant cleared land.

What do you think of a father who endangers his family by forcing them to accompany into a militarily occupied area to appropriate land stripped from the removed inhabitants who are then moved into highly controlled ghettos? Is he at all responsible for putting them in harm's way?

Nothing was "ripped away from Palestinians" who could have had their own state 30 years if they had accepted Israel's simple desire to exist. But of course Leftists in the West also deny Israel's right to exist and blame them for everything, anti-Semitic blockheads that they are.

SteelReedux,
Was there ever any compansation paid by Israel to the Palestinians for the land ? Sort of what Australians do on a perpetual basis for the indigenous Australians.

Hey individual,
Do you have any graphs that show which side instigates more conflicts on a daily basis that bring about the reprisals that result in this terrible toll ?

No, but obviously provocation comes in many forms.

If you are insinuating that both sides are equal, then I must remind you that one side is living under occupation.

Hey ttbn,
Yes we do have by-laws, but of course I was actually talking about two seperate nations, not neighbours in the same country.
And yes there are rules and regulations for neighbours but only in the same country.

I'll meet you halfway though, and say that for people to be good neighbours they need to have mutual respect and ethics in how they treat each other.

Of course good neighbours shouldn't be
pelting each other with missiles; they shouldnt fire rockets at each other; or tunnel under fences; or want their neighbours to move or die.

But Israel did just decide to create its nation there in 1947, with no consideration of the existing people living there. And they went about it wrong to begin with, stealing land, poisoning wells and crops in an attempt to run these people off their land.

And you can't be that angry at Palestinians for being hostile and unfuriated or tunneling under the fence, it's not like you split the country in half across the middle and share equal waterfront access, Israel put the damn fence around these people, then it provocates by messing with them, burning crops, turning water off, and killing them indiscriminately; and then keeps on moving the damn fence to take more land.

Ultimately, the basis for creating Israel in 1948 is questionable in that the people calling themselves Jews are Zionist Khazars, and not descendants of the Tribes of Israel, and the Balfour declaration stated 'Nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine...'

Dear Steele,

Thank You for going to so much effort to explain
your position to me.

I have always wanted to visit Israel and the
Middle-East. However I guess by the time it will
be safe to do so - I shall be too old.

If you are insinuating that both sides are equal, then I must remind you that one side is living under occupation.
Armchair Critic,
I see, similar to Australia but without the perpetual mayhem.

Dear individual,

Please explain.

Foxy,
I just realised the typo, should be with the perpetual mayhem. There is no such mayhem here at this stage.

Foxy,

After criticising Cherful, SR has in response quoted a rabidly anti-Semitic who was effectively booted from the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign for his viciously racist commentary.

He essentially claims that the violence and war crimes incl rockets, kidnappings murder of children and indiscriminate stabbings of civilians perpetrated by Hamas are completely forgivable given their "oppressed" status.

While some of those that criticise Israel are not anti-Semitic, Many very clearly are.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Aren't Arabs Semites as well?

Arabs are more Semitic than pale-skinned Zionist Khazars, and the word 'anti-semitic' is hate speech.

Foxy,

Arabs are Semites, but as often happens with the English language the original and subsequent usage of a word combination is not the logical interpretation of the parts:

"The word antisemitism means prejudice against or hatred of Jews. The Holocaust, the state-sponsored persecution and murder of European Jews by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1933 and 1945, is history’s most extreme example of antisemitism.
In 1879, German journalist Wilhelm Marr originated the term antisemitism, denoting the hatred of Jews, and also hatred of various liberal, cosmopolitan, and international political trends of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries often associated with Jews."

So Israel and Jews get to do whatever they like 'without predjudice' or else everyone else is likened to Hilter?
Great way to silence anyone's criticism.

Israel says the whole land is theirs because God gave it to them; look it's right here:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/245869

They don't care about the Palestinians and never did, they are like living biological waste they haven't yet been able to completely remove yet.

That nurse didn't die for nothing.
She died in the service of her own people, risking her life to help ease others suffering.
She was very brave and paid the ultimate price, like many others.

Dear Shadow Minister,

What a complete and utter pile of tripe.

The gentleman's name is Steven Salaita. Please show one instance of him being a rabid anti-Semitic. Or even slightly.

By so unjustly slandering the man you demean yourself and you give truth to what he wrote in his article, in spades.

Further you very eloquently make the point I was putting to Foxy.

Why not not eat pigs together?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yy9Y9guPdI

Who's worse: Hitler or Soros?

//Who's worse: Hitler or Soros?//

Hitler.

Toni Lavis,
Whoever does what Hitler did is worse than Hitler because of refusing to learn from history.

Steven Salaita is anti-Semitic alright; he's out of a job because he advertised the fact on Twitter. You don't have to scratch a critic of Israel very deeply to reveal an anti-Semite. Jews have been persecuted since the year dot and, in the “enlightened” 22st. Century you don't have to turn over too many rocks to find anti-Semites. The Leftist anti-Semites claim that they want a fair go for Palestinians; but they don't care about Palestinians, they just hate Jews, in the same way they don't care about the poor in their hypocritical demands for economic equality, they just hate the rich

Soros worked for Hitler, says he had the time of his life..
Soros is a Jew displacing millions of non-Jews, causes death any mayhem in everyones country; destroys their countries.
Soros nullifies the holocaust (if it actually happened the way we're told it did) on his own.
Israel treats Palestinians worse than Hitler treated Jews.
Look up 'Facilities at Auchwitz'
The word 'anti-Semetic' is hate speech because it's reserved solely for the purpose of denigrating non-Jews, like saying the 'N' word is reserved only for use white people, and to deny their free speech.
Is it hate for Israel for no reason;
Or criticism of Israel for good reason;
And how would you know?

Please stop using the word Anti-Semitic.
It's hate speech, please refer to Australian law regarding discrimination; 18c and 18d.
That's the law of the land, not made up words used to silence and denigrate people unsorportive of the policies of a foreign nation.

//Soros nullifies the holocaust (if it actually happened the way we're told it did) on his own.//

O.... kay.

SR

"The trustees of the University of Illinois voted on Thursday to block the appointment of Steven Salaita, a Palestinian-American professor who had been offered a tenured position last year, following a campaign by pro-Israel students, faculty members and donors who contended that his Twitter comments on the bombardment of Gaza this summer were anti-Semitic.

“Hate speech is never acceptable for those applying for a tenured position; incitement to violence is never acceptable,” Josh Cooper, a college senior who collected 1,300 signatures on a petition against the appointment, told the trustees before the vote. The student, a former intern for the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, added that “there must be a relationship between free speech and civility.”

"Salaita celebrated the kidnapping of three young Israelis by wishing all of their kin similarly disappeared."

Etc

To quote Foxy:

"Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic and saying
so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium
and international sanction - out of all proportion
to any other party in the Middle East - is anti-Semitic,
and not saying so is dishonest."

Which should give you pause to reflect on your own views.

Sacrificing Gaza: The Great March Of Zionist Hypocricy

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/49574.htm

Dear Shadow Minister,

Haaretz commented that in the months since Hamas's
stunning electoral victory in Palestine, the militant
organisation was acting more responsibly than the
Israeli government. Its representatives speak of a new
era, of a transition from terror to politics, of continued
opposition to occupation via other means, and of aspirations
to a long-term "hudna" (cease-fire). And its asking for
concessions from Israel.

Israel's official policy has been to isolate Hamas and force
its collapse , in the vain hope that the Palestinians will
vote next time for more Israeli-friendly candidates. Hamas
is struggling with a bankrupt economy, and violence in Gaza,
high unemployment, Western isolation, and little aid.

Israel and the USA are engaged in disturbingly narrow-thinking
however. Israel is not prepared to make any concessions.
Therein lies the problem. It's determined to wipe out Hamas.
The failure of Hamas will not bring peace to the
Middle-East any closer and will only inflame extremists on
both sides. Which is what's happening.

If Israel continues to act unilaterally then the conflict
will continue. The current path seems to ensure nothing less.

Australia is providing $48 million in aid the Palestinian Authority while their terrorists are attacking Israel.

How much is the US providing for Israel - while
the conditions in Gaza are deplorable?

Dear Shadow Minister,

Utterly reprehensible my friend.

You failed to find any evidence of Steven Salaita being the least bit anti-Semitic so you used a quote from a college student, a former intern from American Israel Public Affairs Committee? Oh come on.

Do you have that little self respect?

And how about showing me where “Salaita celebrated the kidnapping of three young Israelis by wishing all of their kin similarly disappeared."

You can not produce one single direct instance of him being rabidly anti-semitic or even just a little bit but you still attempted to manufacture something to back up your slur.

Are you really that lacking in any ability to say you were wrong, that you are part of the trolling community deliberately perpetuating blatant falsehoods to label any person who criticises Israel as anti-Semitic.

Disgusting.

Care to try again?

Dear Foxy,

Above is exactly the type of poster who is one of the “trolls eager to dazzle with age-old vitriol”.

“By their fruits you will know them.”

"Killing Gaza" By Max Blumenthal and Dan Cohen
http://youtu.be/cjy2ldR5Kv4

the conditions in Gaza are deplorable?
Foxy,
Who perpetually instigates these deplorable conditions ?
And, no reaction/comment from you about ttbn's 48 million claim ?
Too inconvenient a truth perhaps ?

I have no personal experience of conditions in Gaza, but I do know that propaganda put out by Hamas is fake. Whatever goes on there is down to the worship of Islam, unreasoning hatred of everything not Islam and hatred for Israel. Nothing will change until these primitive, ignorant people face up to the fact that there problems are their own fault, not Israel's, and not the 'infidels'.

Foxy,

Pablo Escobar ran many charities, and initially, he was extremely popular in his area in spite of killing people by the dozens.

Similarly, Hamas with huge wallets were doling out cash to all and sundry, building schools and hospitals and as a result, won the local election handily. In the months following, they began a purge of all Fatah members from any form of government, at first simply sidelining them, then expelling them and eventually accusing them of spying for Israel and holding public executions. So quoting a superficial commentary from a decade ago when the subsequent evidence is so contrary is puzzling.

Hamas is recognised as a terrorist organisation and has as it's main aim to kill Jews.

SR,

You really are pathetic. SS is strongly racist, and along with the majority of his published works being anti-Israel, his tweets were so racistly anti-semitic that a US university (not known for pro-Israeli sentiments) found him too odious to have on staff and rescinded his offer of employment.

Perhaps you should review whom you quote so that you don't appear so racist. That you have openly eschewed any balance or objectivity doesn't look good either.

"... too odious to have on staff and rescinded his offer of employment".

But, of course, AcidReflux thrives on odium, and he will continue to deny the facts.

Hey ttbn,
I have no personal experience of what goes on in Gaza either.

But for me, I don't see this ongoing situation primarily as a matter of religion.
- I see it as a matter of basic humanity.

I see it that way because I think that these people you call 'terrorists'; well I truly wonder if I wouldn't act exactly the same way they do, if I were forced to live the way they do.
Religion or No Religion
- And there it is -

I've got no love of or sympathy for Islam, you know that I'd prefer that none came here.

Well, AC, it is about religion and, unlike you, that religion, Islam, is not interested in humanity; if it was, things in Gaza and the Middle East in general would be much different.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Alex Dafner, who used to run the Yiddish show on SBS
radio and is a "non Zionist" supporter of Israel
states, "People often talk about anti-Semitism and I
think its largely the result of that notion of total
support for Israel, right or wrong. It's hard to defend
policies which in the long term will be disastrous such
as the continuing support for the (security) wall."

Ami Eden, former national editor of the US Jewish
newspaper, "Forward" also challenged the establishment
Jewish organisations in the New York Times. "It is time
Jews recognise that the old strategies no longer work,"
he wrote.

"Jewish organisations and advocates fail to grasp that they
are no longer viewed as the voice of the disenfranchised.
Rather, they are seen as the global Goliath, close to the
seats of power and capable of of influencing policies and
damaging reputations. As such, their efforts to raise the
alarm increasingly appear a bullying."

A major part of the ongoing problem is that many have a
vested interest in prolonging the conflict. Israel opposes
a resolution to the conflict because it opposes the presence
of another people on land it has claimed exclusively for Jews.

The real challenge is to persuade our political leaders and
news media to listen to voices that challenge their
prejudices and preconceptions. The establishment of an
independent Palestinian state is inevitable, but it will not
happen easily, nor without the involvement of many caring
people.

The establishment of an independent Palestinian state is inevitable,
Foxy,
Do you really believe the Plaestinians will calm down then ?

Dear individual,

It's world opinion that will affect changes.

Dear Shadow Minister,

You have not provided a single tweet or quote from the man that shows him is the slightest bit anti-Semitic yet you keep on with your gutter slur.

You most certainly would have been searching high and low but all you can find is some second hand assessment from a shill for Israel and a quote from a university board cowered into submission by a concerted slamming by the Israel lobby. This is the same university which had to fork over nearly $900,000 to the man because of their cowardice.

Come on, park the contemptible mendacity for one brief moment and show me at least one attributable thing that allows you to call this man rabidly anti-Semitic.

But you won't because you can't. You should be furnishing and apology but instead you will defend the indefensible because your toxic ideology doesn't allow you any other option.

Or you could prove me wrong.

It's world opinion that will affect changes.
Foxy,
Well, it hasn't thus far ! What else do you suggest could be done to bring about a change in their unfathomable mentality ?

Lets bring all the Jews to Western countries and send all the Arabs in Western and European countries,
over to Israel and the middle East.

That will solve a lot of problems for everyone. And the muslims can fight their religious wars over in Arab countries,
instead of Western countries who really dont want anything to do with the blimey muslim religion.

Foxy,

Since before the creation of Israel, there have been conspiracy theories about the Jewish control of global industry and politics and in Germany were used to justify the Holocaust and to some extent have been used by the left more recently to justify the attacks on Israel.

The only people that are refusing to negotiate peace are Fatah and Hamas without somewhat extreme preconditions being met. Israel is the only party that is happy to negotiate without any preconditions.

The security wall and the iron dome are very expensive projects that were put in place to prevent Palestinian aggression against Israeli civilians. In doing this they have been extremely successful.

Shadow Minister,

Now you're quoting the usual Israeli line.

It's wearing thin for most people.

cont'd ...

Shadow Minister,

Zionism is being challenged around the world like
never before. It's time Jews recognise that the
old strategies no longer work. It is still far
too politically and morally convenient for Zionist
groups to continue to portray Israel as "disenfranchised"
rather than as a global power. And it is unfortunate
that people seem to make no distinction between an
occupied people and those who occupy them. Israel
talks about the right of self-defence. How can an
occupier claim self-defence but deny the same right
to those who are occupied and have the right to
self-defence with whatever means are available to them?

Still I suppose it is much easier for some to be
pro- Israel than to be pro-Arab. One has to continuously
explain and defend why one is taking that particular
position. It's an uphill battle for some people to unlearn
years of Zionist propaganda.

Dear Foxy,

Shadow Minister, who is not Jewish it seems, is not just toeing the Israeli line but is showing a deep embrace of ultra-Zionistic stances.

It can be sometimes rather hard to comprehend the conviction with which he labels people critical of Israel as rabidly anti-Semitic especially since it is coming from a gentile with seemingly no skin in the game.

It is rather confronting to see such ordinary Australians being so captured by such blatant propaganda often driven by university students tasked and paid for by the Israeli government.

To SM it is perfectly fine to label someone rabidly anti-Semitic not because of the words out of that person's mouth but rather because he has been told to do so, not directly of course but rather implicitly, by the pro-Israeli lobby.

The sheer mindlessness of it is breath taking.

You seem to enjoy researching Foxy. I'm wondering if you can find anything from Steven Salaita that you would consider anti-Semitic? I certainly haven't but would like to see if I am being blind to the obvious.

SM,

The lunatic Left, with its nasty anti-Semitism is never going to be convinced; they are not worth bothering with. Their theories about Jews are the mad rantings of losers. Adolf Hitler would have loved them; the Muslims do love them. They are nothing but useful idiots, frustrated weirdos, and the dag ends of society

ttbn,

If ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest
person on the planet.

Dear Steele,

I found quite a few links on Steven Salaita that may
be of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita_controversy

And -

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/downfall-phyllis-wise-shows-high-cost-doing-israel-lobbys-bidding

I guess this confirms what was being stated earlier. It all
depends on which "side" you're on. It confirms just how
powerful the Zionist lobby is - especially in the US.

Dear Foxy,

Thank you. I had seen the Wikipedia article. Was there any of his quotes that were listed within which you would deem as radically anti-Semitic? If they were the extent of evidence against him then the charge can not be sustained.

And thank you for the second link. It was interesting to read of a similar attack on Professor Massad of Columbia University.

"After the months of inquisition to which Massad was subjected, the Dirks committee concluded that the allegations were unsubstantiated and there was no evidence of anti-Semitism."

I suspect if a similar inquiry was held into Steven Salaita then the findings would be the same.

Dear Steele,

I think that most findings would go by Steven Salaita's
record - which is not one of anti-Semitism. It is one
of presenting a different perspective to the one given
by the Zionist lobby. And as we know anyone who dares
to criticise Israel is branded as being anti-Semitic.

Dear Foxy,

Thank you.

Ten years ago Shadow Minister was prepared to take a far more pragmatic approach.

“Due to the atrocities on both sides, I would say neither Israel nor the Palestinians deserve our support until they can play together in their tiny sand patch.” 2007

To have him now such an attack dog for Israel really does make you wonder about his journey. It would seem to have mirrored that of the Coalition where even our foreign minister gets to call those of us who believe in the BDS movement as anti-Semitic and where Australia sides with the US in the UN to block resolutions seeking to halt the shooting of unarmed people on the Gaza border.

In some ways the propaganda efforts by Israel are indeed impressive. To have turned a sizable section of one of Australia's major political parties against the Palestinians is no mean feat. I suppose Shadow Minister has just dutifully fallen into line.

Dear Steele,

Politics is such a strong motivator - especially when you're
out to garner votes. Disunity is the kiss of death.

And as we know anyone who dares to criticise Israel is branded as being anti-Semitic.
Foxy,
Correct & it's exactly the same with the Left, anyone who dares to criticise Labor is branded as being anti-Democracy.

individual,

That's not true - and you know it.

Watch "Q and A" tomorrow night at 9.30pm on
channel 2. I believe that Bill Shorten will
be the guest. You can see for yourself how
he performs. And make your judgements then.
BTW - The Labor Party does not influence
the mainstream media like the Zionist lobby
tries to do.

Foxy,
Thanks for making me laugh. BS & the ABC goes hand in hand so if you beleive that the notoriously academic biased Q&A is going to portray a fair & factual picture then you'd better start believing in Father Christmas too.

Dear individual,

Get your facts first - then you can distort them
any way you please. I suspect you're a Pauline
Hanson supporter. No policies - just protest
and slurs.

SR and Foxy,

You have rose coloured blinkers wrt Steven Salaita. After his anti-Semitic tweets were exposed, he couldn't get tenure at US universities (who are not known for being pro Israel) and had to move to Beirut.

Secondly, since my optimism in 2007 my view of the Palestinians has deteriorated as Hamas cancelled elections exiled and executed political opponents, and initiated all war against Israeli civilians using their civilians as shields and as cannon fodder and diverted the majority of aid to rearm and rebuild their war machine.

Given that Hamas has yet to recognise Israel's right to exist even within the 1967 borders, the chances of negotiated peace is far slimmer than it has ever been.

Foxy,
No need to 'lose it' over inconvenient truths. Yes, now I support ON because ALP/LNP have kinda ruined most of my plans for my life with their thoughtless & discriminative policies over the years. In the race as to which of the two is the worse, Labor is a clear winner but the Coalition has worked its way up to an extremely close runner-up.
You say to get my facts first. well I did & you're spitting the dummy.
To you it is a game of one-up-manship in ALP vs LNP. To me it's a very serious showing of the shortcomings of those whom we're forced to keep in the lap of luxury & power over us.
It is exactly the same in the Palestine/Israel conflict which shouldn't be conflict at all but a handful of power-crazed midieval dimwits getting their kicks of causing mayhem in the countries they're supposed to 'lead' !
Say something factual & Bing. you're a racist or anti semitic etc which is in fact what they are.

Shadow Minster,

41 Department Heads, Chairs, and Directors published an
open letter calling on Acting Chancellor Barbara Wilson
and President Timothy Killeen to call on the re-instalment of Salaita at the
September 2015 Board Meeting. As a result of this controversy
the University was censured by the American Association of
University Professors and finally awarded Salaita in access of
$800,000 in a settlement. The Chancellor Phyllis Wise was forced
to resign and in August 2015 the University Administration
released emails that Wise had hidden regarding the firing of
Salaita - which showed her dealing with Zionist lobbyists and
donors.

You need to be more selective in your choices of whom you
are going to support without question.
Otherwise your credibility is at risk.

Dear Shadow Minister,

I will admit deriving a little enjoyment seeing you skewer yourself on this one but now I am getting a more than a little embarrassed for you.

Okay, for the umpteenth time. Which of Steven Salaita's tweets do you deem rabidly anti-Semitic?

Dear individual,

It's best that you leave your comments for topics
that you know something about. Do yourself that
favour.

SR,

You should be embarrassed for yourself. Foxy, your credibility is also shot.

https://mikereport.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/uw-to-welcome-professor-charged-with-anti-semitism/

Following the kidnapping of three Jewish teens, Naftali Frankel, Gilad Shaar and Eyal Yifrach last summer, Salaita called for similar acts to be committed against all Jews residing in the West Bank saying “You may be too refined to say it but I’m not, I wish all the **cking West Bank settlers would go missing“. The kidnapped teens were later found to have been brutally murdered and disposed of in a shallow grave.

“Their oppressors, the Jews, not only have managed to cast themselves as victim in the Israel-Palestine conflict, they have justified that self-image through an assiduous emphasis on the specialness, which grants them access to special privileges.”

“Israel independence equals sustenance of the European logic made famous by Hitler”

That is why no university in the US or the EU will touch him.

SR, Foxy do you echo his sentiments?

foxy,
is there even the slightest chance you could actually realise your own hypocrisy ? You're one of the unforgiving, don't do as I do, do as I say club. To do good for all means to accept that selectively meaning well is exactly what doesn't bring about the result that would benefit us all.
You appear to very fond of academic arguments but you disregard the experiences of those who copped nonsense from those whom you look up to.
Academics are among the most ignorant mebers of our society yet they force their insipid logic onto those who actually keep them, the taxpayers. If I am wrong please correct me on this next question to you. How many academics are not on the public funded payroll i.e. how many are proving their worth by being able to sell their use totruly benefit others ?
Menial task workers prove themselves to be needed on a daily basis, are academics ?

Shadow Minister,

I stopped reading your post after I saw that the
link you gave was from the pro-Israeli, pro-Jewish -
"Mike Report." Whose entire focus is waving the
Pro-Israeli banner.

I do not believe in labelling critics as anti-Semites.
I believe in focusing on justice for both Israelis
and Palestinians, and not just on military might.
The Jewish state can only ignore majority world opinion
for so long.

Foxy,

Considering the number of left whinge political mouthpieces to which you refer, your refusal to read one from the other side is rank hypocrisy.

I am not a fan of this particular site, but the webpage contains screen captures of Steven Salaita's racist tweets which you and SR were trying to claim did not exist.

If you don't like the term anti-semitic, would you prefer the simpler term of racist?

Shadow Minister,

Unlike you I use a wide variety of sources.
It's an occupational habit.
Israel and Zionists and their supporters need to
learn that they will never reach higher ground if
they continue to push others down.

Dear Shadow Minister,

You keep bring up things that other people say are anti-Semitic.

Can you please focus and tell us directly which quote of his do YOU think is anti-semitic. Just the most egregious in your opinion will do.

Also the headline of your link reads “UW TO WELCOME PROFESSOR CHARGED WITH ANTI-SEMITISM”. Can you please tell us when and by which authority Stephen was charged with anti-semiticism?

Foxy,

I link to many different websites, of all persuasions, I do notice that having shredded your argument that Steven Salaita was not racist, you have avoided the topic.

SR, having hit rock bottom is now digging.

Having challenged me to provide proof, I found the mikereport website with screen dumps of a few of his bigoted tweets, which shredded your argument. There are plenty of racist tweets several of which I have mentioned previously.

"Zionists: transforming anti-semitism from something horrible to something honourable since 1948." is a clear admission of his racism.

As for the use of the word "Charged" I would guess that the author was implying that the grounds for SS's dismissal from the University was his racist tweets.

SR do you believe that anti-semitism is honourable?

Shadow Minister,

You have not proven anything of the kind and you're sounding
somewhat desperate. You don't even realise - how does
one conduct a critical debate on the Israeli-Palestinian
conflict without stirring the wrath of students, lecturers,
academic organisations and even donors on both sides of
the divide. How on earth in this complex situation are
we truly going to get a fair assessment. All one can do is
take sides - and having lived and worked in the US - I know
which is the easier side to take if you want to keep your job.
If you dare to critique - you get tarnished and regarded as
a traitor. The message is clear - anyone who dares to
criticise Israel loses their job receives threats and abuse -
you're either with us or against us.

It's best to leave well enough alone - as Steven Salaita
learned the hard way.

So cut the BS. Best to let this one go. It's not a win-win
situation.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Finally. See that wasn't all that difficult was it. So this is the quote you find most clearly paints the man as a rabid anti-Semitic;

"Zionists: transforming anti-semitism from something horrible to something honourable since 1948."

But you didn't reproduce it fully did you. Here is the actual quote;

“Zionists: transforming "antisemitism" from something horrible into something honorable since 1948.”

Note the quotation marks around antisemitism.

They are like the quotation marks around words in these tweets of his around the same period. They do not delegitimise the word but rather its illegitimate use.

"Israel has even bombed a few cemeteries. You know, just to make sure the "terrorists" are really dead.”

“Next time a Zionist asks you to "dialogue," remind him that you heard everything he had to say when #Israel was murdering children in #Gaza.”

Salaita is trying to highlight the illegitimate appropriation of the word anti-semitic by Zionists. That does not make him a rabid anti-semitic at all.

This was a tweet from him in the same month.

“I refuse to conceptualize #Israel/#Palestine as Jewish-Arab acrimony. I am in solidarity with many Jews and in disagreement with many Arabs. “

Hardly a rabid anything. This was Salaita's explanation of his original tweet;

“I’m not anti-Semitic. Twitter conversations happen in a specific moment of time, and they only stand for a minor part of an overall narrative. Conceptualizing criticism of the behavior of a nation-state as anti-Semitism is not only a stupid thing to do but it alters, at least passively, the meaning of anti-Semitism and it ends up devaluing the actual instances of hate crimes against Jews that still happen around the world. In fact, many of my tweets over the summer were making the distinction between anti-Semitism and the ability to criticize Israel.”

Now I suspect your response to this will be utterly dismissive since you have shown yourself to be incapable of any kind of nuance on this issue but I thought I would give it a try.

Foxy,

SS's many anti-Israeli publications were well known when he was offered the tenure, it was his racist social media posts that got him fired, and pretty much banned from every campus in the US and the EU, and the university said so.

I have a colleague who lectures at a university in the US and only a year ago he told me that the pendulum at the universities there has swung far towards the Palestinians, so the claim that SS was fired because of anti-zionist feelings alone is laughable.

SR,

I am amazed that you claim read SS's mind. Most sane humans would not find your mealy-mouthed interpretation even slightly plausible.

Shadow Minister,

I have several colleagues in the top universities in the
US - all in very high administrative positions who
totally contradict your claims.

Dear Shadow Minister,

No I don't claim to read his mind rather I returned the punctuation you had deliberately left out in order to bolster your slander.

This was a duplicitous act and you got caught.

The question is why? This wasn't a passive act from you; just falling in lockstep with your clique, but rather something someone would do if they had thoroughly bought into a Zionist mindset that they felt no compunction about distorting facts.

Foxy,

Clearly, we are speaking to different people. However, there are several universities whose policies are clearly anti-Israel that won't touch SS with a barge pole. Perhaps you could name a US university that favours Israel over the Palestinians?

SR,

Your interpretation of the fourth quote I provided is as phoney and duplicitous as it gets, and if anything the "" makes it worse.

Your standard debating tactics of simply avoiding the points you've lost by nitpicking an irrelevant point.

If you claim SS is not anti-Semitic, then why, based on his social media postings, is he persona non grata at just about every major university in the world? Why if SS's speciality is indigenous studies is the vast predominance of his work anti-Israel?

Why do most people think SS is anti-Semitic? Because he frequently targets Jews.

Dear Shadow Minister,

You wrote;

“Your interpretation of the fourth quote I provided is as phoney and duplicitous as it gets, and if anything the "" makes it worse.”

Rubbish. The only reason you removed them in the first place was to make him look bad.

The reason why US universities are shy of employing him is because of the terrible backlash from people who think like you do, that any slight against Israel is anti-Semitic when it plainly isn't.

Your warped sense of political correctness is utterly toxic and racist to boot.

SR,

I am all too aware of the heavy hand of the Israel defence forces, but I am also aware of the cost to Israeli civilians every time the pressure is relaxed. I don't see Israel sending children to stab people.

Your unashamed attempt to whitewash someone that is unambiguously anti-Semitic and racist is because you are also clearly anti-Semitic and racist to boot.

Your hatred of a people and your negligent and deliberate blindness to the vicious and persistent threat that Hamas presents to the people that Israel has a duty to protect exposes a poison in your spirit.

Dear Shadow Minister,

I don't think that it's a case of speaking to different
people. I should have clarified things a bit better.
As the Brookings Institute surveys convey - sympathy
for Palestinians should not imply hostility to Israel
now should sympathy for Israel require disregard for
the fate of Palestinians.

A solution to their conflict achieving two states for
two peoples is the outcome most preferred by Americans.
And the sentiments on university campuses reflects in
the majority this view or tries to.

Regardless of party and administrations of both parties
have sought to help both Israel and the Palestinians achieve
their goals in a two-state solution.

You asked me however - to name one university who was pro Israel -
the closest things I can come up with - is Arizona State
University who asked an academic to sign a contract not to
criticise Israel at a university event. Not sure if that
qualifies.

Universities as explained prefer not to take sides.
Hence the objections of so many academics, chairs and
universities who objected to the treatment of S. Salaita.
where an institution of learning buckled under the influence
of Zionist influences and Jewish donors.

Not Kosher!

Foxy,

It is possible to have sympathy for the Palestinians and disdain for their rulers, and sympathy for Israelis and anger at the Israeli government.

However, it is my experience is that many use sympathy for the suffering of the people in Gaza as a thin veneer for an intergenerational hatred of Jews as has been aptly demonstrated on this thread.

By comparison, I have spent some time in Sub Saharan Africa and have seen multitudes in the same grinding poverty that they have endured for generations and the aid agencies that spend $bns to alleviate this. The fault is not with the people themselves or the donor countries but lies entirely with the corrupt despots that steal just about everything for themselves and their cronies.

The job of the Israeli government is to protect their people which they do well if a little too enthusiastically. In contrast, the Hamas leadership have obliterated any opposition, enriched themselves and squandered the aid money on arming themselves in a fight that they can never win.

With regard to Hatem Bazian who was not a lecturer at Arizona Uni, but the guest speaker, at an event on the University. I would guess that the contract had more to do with Hatem Bazian's crossing the line from Anti Israel to Anti Semitic that drew a strong reprimand from the Berkley Uni chancellor.

Note SS and HB received the same treatment as if they had, for example, used the N-word in a derogatory fashion. At centres of learning political activism is generally encouraged, racism is not.

It's not Kosher or Halal.

Shadow Minister,

Here is a link that explains the Arizona State University's
position:

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/nora-barrows-friedman/arizona-university-forces-speakers-sign-pledge-they-dont-boycott-israel

It is unfortunate - that you still persist in associating
Palestine with terrorism and those who support their cause
as being anti-Semitic. Your view appears to be so ingrained.
It proves that it certainly is an uphill battle for some
Australians to unlearn years of Zionist propaganda.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Fourth quote? No it was the first quote that you flagged as the one that you felt most directly labeled Steven Salaita  as rabidly anti-semitic. If you have changed your mind and think there is a more egrigious one please post it and I will be happy to discuss it.

You claim;

“However, it is my experience is that many use sympathy for the suffering of the people in Gaza as a thin veneer for an intergenerational hatred of Jews as has been aptly demonstrated on this thread.”

What utter bull. You and your ilk continue to devalue the word anti-Semitic by attaching it to those who would criticise Israel, which was the point Steven Salaita was making. It is dangerous, amoral and toxic.

You should be ashamed.

Foxy,

After criticizing me for linking to a pro-Israeli site that had collected SS's anti-Semitic quotes, you then link to an opinion piece in a blog that is a Palestinian political mouthpiece.

I am also stunned that you cannot see the clear link between the Palestinians and terrorism. The PLO committed a vast variety of atrocities before and after the Oslo peace deal, and Hamas has continued with the bombing of school buses, the kidnapping and murder of children and the use of their own women and children to stab Israeli citizens.

For the illiterate, attacking Israel is not Anti-Semitic, but attacking Jews is. Not all that attack Israel are anti-semitic, but many are. My views are based on decades of evidence, yours apparently not.

SR,

Firstly, I don't accept your extremely tenuous and weaselly attempt to whitewash SS's racist tweet. Secondly, I never flagged that tweet "as the one that you felt most directly labelled Steven Salaita as rabidly anti-semitic" as I deliberately didn't want to play your childish game.

If you need further quotes to work on, there are several in my link in which SS's directly attacks the "Jews". And trying to defend this racist bigot is dangerous, amoral and toxic and you should be ashamed that you so clearly share his values.

Shadow Minister,

In an age of political unilateralism - an arrogant
concept deliberately designed to subjugate one people
to another - we must move past using dehumanisation
and delegitimisation as weapons to be wielded against
the Palestinians.

I support the state of Israel and believe in its existence.
But there must be a way for Israel to exist securely
while allowing justice for the Palestinian people.
A sustainable future for Israel and the Palestinians is
should be our central concern.

Many people are often accused of being anti-Israel and
hostile towards the Jewish people. Nothing could be further
from the truth. Most people support the rights of Israelis
to live in peace and security, but not at the expense of
the Palestinians.

Why do we constantly hear about Israel's need for "security",
as though that justifies walls, checkpoints, barriers,
expansionism and killing of medical personnel, women, and
children? Why is the world told to believe that the Palestinians
should only accept peace on Israel's terms?

I've come to the sad conclusion that many in the West simply
don't like Arabs or Palestinians very much and therefore
believe that Israel has the right to treat them as they wish.

In all of this, the news media plays a crucial role since
they are the conduit for the debate.

It is time for a radical re-thinking of the conflict.

See you on another discussion.

This one for me has run its course and I don't want to
keep repeating things. Besides I can see that nothing
productive is being achieved here and I've wasted enough
time as it is on this topic.

Foxy,

If there was no violent aggression from the Palestinians, there would be no restrictions placed on them and no retaliation. No blockade, no checkpoints, no walls, and a chance for a final peace.

Shadow Minister,

You just as easily could argue that if Israel behaved
differently - there would not be the conflict that there
is.

No wonder there's no resolution possible until one or both
are willing to meet each other half way.

Dear Shadow Minister,

“If there was no violent aggression from the Palestinians, there would be no restrictions placed on them and no retaliation. No blockade, no checkpoints, no walls, and a chance for a final peace.”

Why this is such an utter lie is the fact that Israel is allowing hundreds of thousands of illegal settlers to build illegal settlements on militarily occupied Palestinian land.

It was only through violent resistance that the Gazans now have a territory no longer festooned with settlements and checkpoints but they have paid heavily for their defiance.

So it really comes down to whether you believe that those on the West Bank have the right to resist, violently if needed, to secure their homeland just as the Zionist did when securing theirs from Britain.

If you don't then why can't you be labeled a racist?

Actually Foxy and SR,

The last great peace initiative was the Oslo peace accord where Israel gave the Palestinians some degree of autonomy in the west bank and Gaza for a pledge to reduce the terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens.

The result initially was little to no change in terrorist attacks, but these soon started to escalate to the point where Israel needed to clamp down.

SR,

With any rights to commit violence, comes the responsibility to accept the consequences.

Actually, Shadow Minister,

The 1993 Oslo Accords, proved that the Palestinians were
in fact serious about peace. They had, by agreeing to a
two-state solution, given up almost 80 per cent of
"historical Palestine," and despite years of ongoing
settlement expansion , checkpoints, and military incursions,
many leading Palestinians still called for cooperation with
Israel. The mainstream Israeli position was that the occupation
would soon cease and a Palestinian state would be formed.

The government, however, had no intention of dismantling
settlements, and instead accelerated construction.

Israel intended to maintain settlements throughout the West
Bank and Gaza making a contiguous Palestinian state impossible.
Ultimately Arafat refused the offers on the table because
they were too vague and didn't appreciate the requirements of
the Palestinian people. Barak hoped the Palestinians would
accept Israel's rules, then dared to suggest that Arafat
was incapable of accepting the existence of the Jewish state.

The power imbalance of the negotiations - the Palestinians
had already agreed to give up much of their historical homeland
almost guaranteed a disappointing outcome.

Actually Foxy,

Historical Palestine also included Transjordan, and after 1949, the West Bank and Gaza were owned by Jordan and Egypt respectively.

The Arab rejection of the original partition plan of 1947 and the subsequent failure of the planned genocide is what led to the borders of 1949, and the subsequently attempted genocides in 1967 and 1973 led to the present day borders. Notably, the Sinai was returned to Egypt after a peace treaty in which Israel traded land for peace. The Oslo accord was done in a similar vein trading land for peace, and not intended to be the endpoint. However, the Palestinians did not honour their promises and the terror attacks did not decrease but increased.

Shadow Minister,

That is simply not true.

We are so far apart with our views on this that
I think any further discussion would be pointless.

Have a nice day.

Foxy,

I am stating facts. Which facts do you think are not true?