Well, unless you work for a tax payer funded organisation, or you have been living under a rock, you will be aware of just how tough many small retail businesses are doing it right now.

While I accept how tough it is for people to meet with their living expenses, that's not the fault of the employer and, with the advancement of automation in the workforce these days, I fear we have put more pressure on finding ways to cut staff numbers.

Of cause, once introduced there is no turning back from automation. As just a small example, take a walk through your local Coles/Woolies and you will note something missing in the meat department, staff.

You see these guys have switched over to what is know in the industry as 'Case Ready', which most meats are now in 'Map Packs' (tightly sealed vacume packs dowsed with CO2) and the majority of these are machine cut and packed, eliminating thousands of butchers and meat packers from their workforces, and this is just one small example.

So of cause the unions want you to receive a pay rise, because so long as they can pick a fight, they retain their jobs, often at the cost of others.

So the dog continues to chase its tail and few can see the big picture, other than allowing people to maintain their $45 per litre late' or $8 eggs. I just don't get the logic, by all means share in the profits, but don't add to the losses just for the sake of it.

If people want more money, find more work as there are literally hundreds of jobs that could be done, but they are mostly done by back packers, simply because our people won't lower themselves. Alternatively they can cut their spending habits, even buy raw foods and prepare meals from scratch as opposed to the highly priced prepared foods many buy today.

Well, one day we may have to do just that, take what you can get because the likes of small retail can't afford this latest hit.

It is about time some of these small business call it a day. We are grossly over catered for. Only the strongest can survive.
It will not effect unemployment as half of these businesses are being subsidized by govt; now.
The working day is supposed to be 8 hours not 16 butch. Your system would never work and never will.
The more the worker is devoid of money the more small business loose out. Time for rationalization.

Dear rehctub,

I used to get all of our family's meat from a butcher.
The quality of the meat was always excellent, and the
butcher was always able to advise me on what cuts to
buy for the meal that I was cooking. He never failed me.

When we moved house - there wasn't a butcher close by
so I began going to Woollies or Coles. And after a while
I did notice the lack of staff in their meat departments.
It was disappointing - that I could not longer ask for
what I wanted.

Anyway, to make a long story short. Last week - I was
having my grand daughter for a day - so I found a
butcher shop and bought some home-made beef and pork
(combined) sausages for her for lunch. She loves
sausages. Rehctub, what a revelation. They were glorious.
I bought enough sausages to give to my daughter in-law
to take home, and enough for us to eat that night as well.

The taste was out of this world compared to the commercial
stuff we get from the supermarkets. My grand-daughter
loved the meal that I had prepared. And who can blame her.
What a difference a fresh product made.

I'm going back to the butchers for my meat from now on.
It's well worth the longer trip. What a difference in taste.

Wage rises are a reliable indicator of price rises to follow-back to square one & back to out-pricing on international competitiveness. More inflation movig up on the horizon. Financial experts doing their thing again dragging us further away from exporting revenue.
China & India must be laughing their head off.

rehctub Quote "If people want more money, find more work"

To me that in most circumstances is a stupid statement, so you are saying to people go give up more of your time to be slaves to the system.

The problem is from the top down we have the highest paid world leader of OECD counties, a post office boss who was getting over $5 million dollars per year, now take lawyers fees, doctors fees, fees for child care just to name a few are all out of reach to the most of people.

Too me most people do not live they exist they get up in the morning go to work come home some have a few hours relaxing go to sleep then the whole process starts again, that is not living that is a slave to the bankers and others.

After that they die, what have they lived for in so many cases nothing.

Of course that does not apply to everyone but it applies to too many.

Not to be taken literally but someone said.
Live today like you are going to die tomorrow, Learn new thing like you are going to live forever.

Rechtub posts like this remind me why I live and die an ALP voter, to both say the poorest of us hurt the economy by getting a wage rise, and mostly from the same people tax cuts for the very well off are needed? not every one has been poor, very very poor,how would a single income home on less than $800 a week pay rent and live in say Sydney? are the very poor working class disposable humans? is it not true every cent they earn they spend as consumers?

Come to think of it, who or what is the actual cause that creates poor people in a first world Nation ? One would have thought with so many bureaucracies no-one would even have a chance to be poor ? So, how come we have poor people in this country with so much wealth to toil?

Dear Individual,

Millions of adults, and children live in poverty.
For these impoverished people, life may be
marked by illiteracy, ignorance,
insecurity,homelessness, disease, and early death,
the stunting of human lives and potential.

Who are the poor?

Female-headed homes. Poverty is becoming "feminized."
Families that live in poverty often only have a
female householder with no adult male present.
Women generally earn less than men and an increase in
unmarried or divorced mothers, who frequently lack
the job skills - may have to stay at home to look after
the children.

Children - under the age of eighteen also live in
poverty. - More than half of all poor children live in
female-headed households.

Minorities - include low incomes and high unemployment
rates. Subtle discrimination in hiring and promotion
practices affects many minority groups.

The poor actually form a highly diverse group. Many poor
people work full-time at unskilled jobs that will
never pay much - domestic cleaners, sweatshop labourers,
parking-lot attendants, and so on. Many live in areas of
chronic unemployment, such as depressed rural regions
or decaying urban neighbourhoods where industries are
in decline.

I won't go into further detail. You get the picture.
Many people complain about the poor. That they are in
poverty because they prefer to live on "handouts."
That is not true. These people don't know any poor
people.

But there are few complaints about the governments
"handouts" to the non-poor who receive benefits such
as hidden subsidies or tax deductions. This fact
generally escapes attention because these benefits take
the indirect form rather than the direct form of
cash payments.

Foxy, as you know I have been a butcher for 41 years now, and only did an alternative job for a few years.
For butchers to survive now we have to be either very good, or very bad (the cheap and nasty type) famous for pumping their meats with water and selling low grade 'cow meat' as yearling. My shop sells the best of everything and while its tough, it is working. slowly.

The fact of the matter is that the supermarkets have the middle meat tied up, and their sausages are usually made with soy bean powder as a substitute for some of the meat content. This is why the often swell when cooked, because the SB is soaking up the fat as it melts.

So Doog, yes, some do need to close the doors and accept that the industry is going through a major change.

As for the family on single income, the likes of rent assistance and family assistance usually softens the gap. Either way, the short fall is not the responsibility of the employer and I can assure you this will cost jobs. Always does, always will as the saying goes, don't bite the hand that feeds you.

//you will be aware of just how tough many small retail businesses are doing it right now.// According to Butch.

The average salary for a Small Business Owner / Operator is AU$66,946 per year. According to 'Payscale' Australia.

Until recently there were three cafe's within a short walk of my place. Outwardly there was little to distinguish one from the other two, appearance, location, etc. However, two offered good quality meals, with friendly staff, fast service and reasonable prices. The third offered poor quality fair, from an unfriendly owner and staff, and was over priced. One of the three went broke and closed down recently, no prize for guessing which one.

p/s The number of average customers per cafe would easily sustain three such businesses. Two do a roaring trade, lunchtime, weekends etc, the other bloke, was once was okay, but trade slipped badly over time.

Dear rehctub,

I wish you every possible success in your business.

From memory, you've always been fair to your staff.
You've even made training positions for young people
in the past. Apprenticeships are hard to come by for
most.

Your integrity and honesty speaks for itself. You
deserve to do well.

What type of world do we want? no think about it,rectub thinks the wage rise unfairly impacts on small business, our government while admitting some huge company's pay zero tax, that is less than one low income earner! should get tax cuts! now rectub my $85.000 a year days are behind me, my income went on house purchase and unexpected repairs,had I been working my extra may have re introduced beef to my table, once, to lift the economy, pork barreling took place, so people could spend,if our system needs to create not just wealth but poverty, we need a better system

How about attacking the show from this angle ?
Up to $49,999/year wage/welfare income tax excempt but still pay GST. That would in my book just about instantly pull many out of poverty & no-one else would be short changed because of it. The instant incease of small business turnover would stimulate the local economy.

From $50,000 onwards to 59,999 have 10 Cents flat tax & fom $60,000 to $99,999 have 25 Cents Flat Tax. Of these figures are merely a rough indicator but surely the amounts could be tweaked so no-one's paying more tax when earnig less than another. The may need to be a buffer zone with an amount that no-one can earn i.e. from, for argumet's sake $50,000 to $55,000 or whichever amount does not disatvantage the higher from the lower wage tax.
There could be an opportunity to raise the GST by 2-3 Dollars to fund an old age pension scheme. Superannuation should be voluntary & solely self funded, no wage earners should be contributing to public servant Super.

In my book of financial ignorance this would solve a lot of Welfare rorting & tax cheating but most of all it would provide one of the most important factors in society, it would bring back incentive.

Those who make themselves unemployable by grotesque appearance i.e. tatooing & body-pircing should sign a waiver for Welfare & that tatooist & the body piercer must countersign that waiver before going ahead with their work.

Drug abusers also (drug dependents excempt), extreme sports participants also need insurance.
Only if we create a user pays system can we create a more workable & fair society.

Public Service salaries frozen for three terms of Government & introduce a non-military National Service for anyone aged 18 & unemployed.

Business/Salary tax should be more than it is after all, they're making the big Dollars.
Outsourcing vital communications jobs to other countries should be illegal for security reasons alone. You hear Telstra, that means keeping our passwords in this country.

Stop mad mass immigration and the wage problem will go away; so will much of the welfare burden.

Immigrants pay more in taxes than the social services they
seldom use. And their incomes support our economy and our
standard of living - according to the Department of
Treasury and Home Affairs.

Foxy Quote "Immigrants pay more in taxes than the social services they
seldom use." I believe that should be "Some immigrants" exactly what percentage I don't know plus if there is a figure put out by the Government I will bet it is inflated to perpetuate the lie for more immigrants.

Quote "Their incomes support our economy and our standard of living"
That one is pure BS people from Asia and non Western countries usually send a lot of there income home to support family back home.

Just do a search on how much money is sent from Australia to other countries by people also that does not include the secret ways of sending money overseas.

I never understood individual and he will never understand me, national service? well of work of service to the nation, not in the armed forces,give every unemployed person a job, that serves the community,no welfare, for a fair wage, with training for full time work included, no work no pay,but please let the poorer of us consume, make the minimum wage a living wage.

Doog,

you said It will not effect unemployment as half of these businesses are being subsidized by govt; now.

Please tell me which small businesses are subsidized by the government? I have a small business and get zero help from the government. I see large manufacturing companies get grants (Holdens etc) but NOTHING for small business.

Please enlighten us all

Belly,
Long time no argue. I went off too for a few years but things are just too rotten to ignore hence both our returns.
By a Non-Military national Service I mean work based activities for those who can not or don't want to find work. In order to stop a fourth generation of welfare families it would be an advantage to use the welfare payments for work experience. Young(ish) people could be paid the minimum wage which should in my opinion be income tax excempt, but not for sitting on the steps of Centrelink offices but to actually be engaged in essential service related activities. These could range from cleaning parks, graffiti, waterways, the sides of roads etc etc. Why, even the canetoads could do with some bounty hunting.
People could help out in hospitals, on the railways, be engaged by local Councils in fact anywhere there is a chance for young people to absorb a sense of responsibility, respect & general decency. None of these are found on Centrelink steps.
Those who have aptitude could be syphoned off into background services & even absorbed by the armed services. Anything to get them experiencing responsible daily life. Like the rest of us the unemployed too need dignity & those who really are allergic to work & responsibility can be put on such basic welfare that even to them work looks enticing. The whole mess came from easy welfare for the lazy & harsh Centrelink treatment for the unfortunate. The show needs to an injection of sense not perpetual unworkable expensive schemes by our academic experts. Young people don't need work experience-they need to experience work !
We're not only talking about young people's future, we're also talking about a better society for a stronger Nation.

I was referring to businesses that are working their business and getting dole as well, as their business does not earn enough to get off the dole.

There is 13.3% of our population currently living below the poverty line, including "the working poor".

It seems that's not high enough for some businesses but ironically it's their own customers they are underpaying - and then they complain about economic downturns.

Perhaps we should return to Serfdom to make them happy.

doog SOME business employ only welfare people, and pay very very low wages,warning said workers they will dob them in if they complain,that is far from the only fraud, carers who never see the one they are paid to care for are another,we can surely, find another way

One way to address the dole bludger is to make the dole so uninviting that they would beg for a job.

You do this by firstly removing cash payments, as these are too easily wasted on the likes of gog, cigs and gambling.

As it stands, serial dole bludgers are literally paid to stay in bed, because let's face it, $250 a week is not bad for simply attending the odd job centre appointment, yet some can't even manage that and then complain about getting cut off. Of cause there are the genuine cases, but there are also the blatant bludgers so something has to be done.

Living wage. Just what is a 'living wage', and more importantly, how can anyone expect to work an unskilled 9 to 5 job and buy a house. Well actually, many could afford a house, just not 'the house' and there in lies a huge part of the problem. Of cause having useless governments resettling hundreds of thousands of immigrants into the likes of Sydney is a huge part of the problem. One can buy houses for under $100K in rural towns the likes of Miles. If these immigrants were relocated to regional towns, these towns would flourish with the additional welfare dollars, which in its self would create jobs.

Many of these towns accommodate a lot of 457 jobs, FIFO in fact, so these could be replaced immediately by the immigrants.

Foxy, thanks for your kind words. I can assure you I mean no harm to anyone, but despise those who think it's their given right to bludge off the tax payer.

So it's better to punish ten thousand people trapped by circumstance than to let one person get an easy ride?

Starving people into looking for jobs that aren't there doesn't seem like a fair notion.

Neither does a deliberate political and economic strategy that demands a constant unemployment rate of around 4% just to keep a cap on wages and inflation and claims that zero unemployment would be a very bad outcome.

rache, forcing anyone to use tax payer funds is not depriving them of anything. The money never was, and never should be made available for the likes of cigs, grog or gambling, full stop.

BTW, there is such a card in operation as we speak and is widely used in the Logan area ATM. This same card is about to be introduced in the Caboolture region, which is where I am located and although I know it will hurt my business, it is for the betterment of society and there to help ensure that the tax payers funds are being spent more wisely. Let's face it, had this been the case where these funds were not wasted, then there would be no need to take these measures, but they have not.

Of cause the rat bags spoilt it for the rest, but if the rest are doing the right thing then what's the problem.

rache, 'Pig Iron' Bob Menzies, founder of the Liberal Party believed an unemployment level of 10% was "desirable", as it would keep a lid on "worker demands". He also believed women in the workforce was an "untapped source of cheap labour". 'Pig Iron' also liked Hitlers Germany, and said so.

So it's better to punish ten thousand people trapped by circumstance than to let one person get an easy ride?
rache,
Tens of thousands are getting an easy ride, not just a few if you care to observe. Why not offer your idea of a solution ? Statements simply stating staus quo aren't productive, ideas to solutions can be. Let me put a question to you; What would you do with people who deliberately make themselves unemployable ? I know what I would do, food cards only that specifically exclude cigarettes & alcohol. Why is it that some people have the right to demand we support them but as soon as we asked for just a little responsibility from them we're that bad ones ? I have stated countless times that those who believe the voluntarily, deliberately useless should be supported, feel free to provide their TFT to the ATO for deductions, just don't expect decent people to contribute to the rorting & exploitation & the further decline of our society. Undersatnd this; between the greedy & the idealists this Nation is being brought to its knees & it is only the committment of decent & responsible citizens that the show still functions. There are good in both our political parties but they're outnumbered by the self-serving, public service bureaucrats..

Most people want more money - as often as possible; they don't care about the consequences to others. They never think of the effect; but there is an effect, and the effect is: fewer jobs, fewer hours for those with jobs (there are more casual jobs these days because employers are doing everything they can to survive), and the closure of small businesses, the main employer of Australians.

If you want higher wages, demand the cessation of mass immigration, globalisation and big government.

Well aware my work for the dole thought brings others out to damn it,lets us think about that, will we still use the current system in say fifty years? is all progress in this area unfair? from a back ground more likely than most to be a welfare receiver I would jump at any job, task, not having needed it other than as a youth, my wish is that we can be brave, think it out and ensure not just work for the dole but paid at a fair rate,and WORK not the turn up and stand around uninterested some do now,a future leader will introduce great things in this area,and will get dumped on by the few who refuse to think about real change, even if it is for the better

I need our statistic lady Foxy to dig up some of the figures on how many % of Welfare recipients are deemed simply avoiding employment & if known, why are they getting Welfare ?

Many of us had to do work we didn't like but we did because we needed to pay for things to get us through the day. During the Whitlam disaster a group of us lost their jobs in Cairns & we drove as far as Canberra before some of us could find a job. None went on the dole. Then, only a few months after I found my job I went for a drive to Huskisson on the NSW coast when I picked up a young bloke hitchhiking. I asked him what he did for work & he replied "I'm on the dole, who wants to work anyway?" I stopped the car & told him to get out. That was in 1975 & I would not at all be surprised if his grandchildren were on unemployment welfare today.
I know another bloke who has been on unemployment benefit for 38 years, another for over 20 years & others still with family, all on the Dole. Another person had Newstart refused because, according to the Centrelink officer "you have a house". that this 'house' is merely in the early stages of building did not affect the centrelink officer's consideration.

Paul1405,
> 'Pig Iron' Bob Menzies, founder of the Liberal Party believed an unemployment level of 10% was "desirable", as it would keep a lid on "worker demands"

Are you sure about that? 'Twas before my time, but I was under the impression that the unemployment level was very low in the Menzies era.

Unemployment was low during the Menzies era, Aidan. It is bullshite to suggest otherwise; but, that's you lefty mates for you. If they can't find something genuine to disparage conservatives, they will invent something.

Ok, let's take this as a hypo scenario.

A rental in cheaper area, say my area, Caboolture.

A modest four bed room house for say $400/wk.

Put six in that house all on the dole, that's a combined income of around $1250 per week, take away the rent, power say $430 and that leaves quite a nice chunk for other things. This is why many have the likes of play stations and Foxtel, because they have both the time and the money, and let's face it, if you don't go to bed until the early hours of the morning, then surface around 9ish, this makes it harder to find a job and therefore protects your way of life. After all, I doubt job seeking has any real time restraints.

Now of cause some will say that's being a bigot, well, pull your heads out of the sand and take a look around is all I can say as people like these are the highest per hour earners we have.

The reality is we are running out of funding and unless we take serious action, and fast, we will be left with no alternative other than to slash more funding from the likes of hospitals and aged care to name just two. While i'm the first to admit that welfare quarantining will hurt some innocent people,but it shouldn't be for long, because genuine unemployed 'job seekers' will find work. Ok, it may not be the dream job, but it will be a job. It's the old saying, it's the fight in the dog that counts, not the dog in the fight.

There are so many incentives for employers now to hire unemployed that there are very few excuses for not finding work, other than poor motivation or unwillingness to put ones self out to find work.

Tens of thousands getting a free ride?
Is that a statistical fact or just an opinion, like the supposed hordes of young single mothers on benefits when it turns out most are deserted wives with recalcitrant fathers not meeting their obligations?

As for those cards, when do we extend them to aged pensions?
I see pensioners outside the clubs on pension days waiting to play the pokies and lined up at the Newsagents for their weekly gambling binge. It's our money too isn't it, or is it intended to stick it only to specific groups in receipt of welfare?

It also turns out that in those areas where such cards have been trialled, there is an increase in break-and-enter crimes and violent assaults but it must be worth it politically and to satisfy a certain part of the electorate, despite the human cost.

The fact that the taxpayer pays the card provider a $10,000 fee to distribute and administer each card is neither here nor there. That's almost as much as Newstart for an entire year so it will take a while for any real benefits to appear.

It's also easy to get around the card restrictions. I can hand somebody with a card my $50 grocery shopping list outside Woolies and pay them $40 cash for them at the checkout.

As for moving people to settle in rural areas to solve problems, they tried something like that decades ago when they thought Sydney was filling up.
They urged people to buy and settle in areas like Campbelltown on the assurance that industry and business would follow them there.
They didn't - and the towns became a dumping ground for welfare recipients with a reputation that is hard to shake off.

This is an example of the uniquely Australian trait called "The Tall Poppy Syndrome" but it really works in both directions. The simple truth is that some hate to see others getting something they can't get themselves, regardless of circumstances and will generalise to the extent they include everybody in a particular target group.

rache,
I know where you're coming from but where I am heading is to change this dreadful system.
If we just keep saying things are no good yet simply just accept as they are then where we are is as far as we get, hence the desperate need to change.
95% of people will go for whatever they can get, no matter how it impacts on others. It's the 5% who are constantly doing battle to prevent the 95% from exploiting every loophole. The change I'm on about is about closing loopholes & making opportunities available that enable people to not only receive but also give. Moreso, people need to become way more responsible & that is not achievable with the present system.
Work on putting forward ideas not keep on telling how it is. I'd like to see people work on changing the how it is.

There it is again - 95% vs 5%.
Where does that come from?
When people make guesses it's usually 80% vs 20%.

Whenever they have a big purge on bogus Centrelink applications, the results are invariably much less than people and the media expect.

I certainly agree there are problems with the current system but blaming and demonising the victim is never a solution.

Nor are punitive measures, politically attractive as they seem.
Work for the Dole was popular but a $648 million flop in all respects.
It was more a vote-buying exercise than a solution to unemployment.
Likewise, dumping the CES in favor of profit-driven private companies and the ineffective Centrelink model was probably a bad move.

To fix things, they could start by making sure companies pay their fair taxes and proper wages because if anynone is getting a "free ride", it's many of them.

Aidan and ttbn, I never said unemployment was high during the Menzies era, in fact it was low. The 1950's-60's was a boom period for the Australian worker, with sustained full employment proving wage growth, not seen previously. Menzies on more than one occasion referred to the desirability of a "pool of unemployed" his oft quoted figure at the time was 10%. In the context of those years, remembering unemployment approached 30% during the depression of the 1930's, 10% was not an unreasonable figure. The notion that Australia should strive for full employment only developed post war. As a conventional economic measure a 'pool of unemployed' was seen as desirable, and even accepted by the likes of the Labor Party as a natural economic condition. Although Menzies was a long serving post war PM, his political philosophy was very much prewar. The Australian post war economic boom, was not down to Menzies, but in spite of Menzies.

ttbn, interesting, when Menzies formed the Liberal Party he believed it would be an Australian model of the British Conservative Party, he named it The Liberal Party as he believed rightly, there was not enough class division in Australia and the name Conservative Party would not resonate with voters, He got that right, but no one told Corny Banana in 2017.

Menzies conservatism, when Australia changed over from pounds, shillings and pence, to dollars and cents in 1966, Menzies suggested that rather than call the new currency "Dollars" we should call them "Royals", that got a good laugh at the time.

Where does that come from?
rache,
That is a figure I pulled up by watching my surrounds over many years. If you disagee with them why not do your own observations by talking to everday people in everyday places in everyday jobs. You'll be surprised how the selfishness of people shows up like an infrared photo on a crime scene.
I have observed more selfishness in so-called ordinary people than in those who are generally associated with greed such as business people & manufacturing. I know it doesn't sound good because it isn't good, it's a fact that is swept & accumulates under the carpet & being out of sight equals being out of mind. Talk to any ordinary person in the street & the majority will give it away that they're no better & perhaps even more selfish than those whom they complain about.

That's why we need leaders who are committed to uphold & control us because we're incapable of controlling ourselves. We're not going to find them in the academic/lawyer circles, that much is now proven beyond reasonable doubt.

It is my understanding that the card is to be given to ALL welfare recipients, including disability and pensions. In fact, I know a guy who is on a disability pension, very deserving due to a workplace accident, and circumstances, and he is doing up an old bus. He is doing as much as he can because once the card comes out he will be very restricted to the amount of cash he can withdraw. It is intended to be his home.

As for pensioners, if they have any additional income then they can draw on that for the likes of tobacco grog and gambling. If they rely solely on the pension, then that's life I guess.

As for the 5 to 10% doing the right thing, I guess if you look at most committees, the numbers are similar as it's usually 50 to 10 % who do the work, with the others either enjoying the benefits, or finding ways to extract more than their fair share. It's life unfortunately.

rehctub,
This why Centrelink needs to be shaken up to no end. They need to look at individual cases not throw all into one basket.
I just wish Turnbull & Shorten & their underlings had enough integrity to care about the people they preside over & actually say to themselves "gee, we're not doing a good job are we, let's get into it".
I have a friend who used his big boat to make a living but now he can only sell it for peanuts if he does eventually get a buyer.. Centrelink deems the boat an asset whilst to him it is a huge liability. Centrelink, or rather the Government has to sort such nonsense out. Pensioners who want to have a reasonable retirement such as having a boat & a car, are considered as having too much in assets to get the pension. I'm not talking about luxury items, I'm talking about boats & cars which the people have built themselves over the years leading up to retirement.

During these times they paid Tax on every bit of material they bought & now the Government says they have too much. Yet, those who p....d everything up against the wall even get rent assistance on top of their pension. Something doesn't add up.
If you can make something in your spare time with your money & you're using it then it should not be deemed an asset until it gets sold & only if you make a profit.

Indi my view on pensions are very different as in my opinion the pension one receives should be based on the contributions one make during their working life, a 'reward for effort' rather than being punished for your efforts as it is now.

rehctub,
I totally agree. There was a 7.5% pension Tax that disappeared from view a couple or three decades ago. The Tax didn't go down though. That's why I have raved on about Flat Tax & negative gearing. One we need the other we need to get rid of. You quite rightly said reward for effort. Not reward for opportunism & connivery.
When you consider how much Tax we pay from income to spending & buying, the average blue collar worker has paid his fair share to be rewarded with the old age pension.
Superannuation should be separate altogether for those who want it & they can put the money towards it.
Apart from affording workers a decent existence in retirement, an old age pension is also a catalyst for local economies. Reduce the pensio & the local economy drops.
What a lot of small business operators forget when they say the old age pension should be self-funded is, that blue collar wage earners don't have the luxury of commercial welfare i.e. writing off as much as they can so as to pay as little tax as possible.

Indi, if we were given a guarantee that your pension was a reflection on your tax contribution, I would suggest more would happily pay more tax, but how can you trust any government.

Tomorrows pensioners are today's people putting views about some thing they will not truly understand till it is them they talk of, I am confronted every time by the view, in a country that wants to give business tax cuts, that lets multi nationals pay no tax, yes one worker pays more than them, we see those who want to tell us welfare is the problem.that over looks Government ministers with huge expense bills spending our cash, but wants those without a job to carry this card, give them a job, problem solved

rehctub & Belly,
It'd be interesting to see how much the waste of taxpayer money is in comparison to what the old age pension costs.
The below $100,000/annum blue collar brigade pays more tax than anyone could poke a stick at.
Then there's tax on everything so, if the Government can see it fit to pay some un-needed irrelevant experts, consultants, bureaucrats hundreds of thousands a year then there is simply no argument that the old age pension should pose any problem to the coffers.
My view is that a Flat Tax could be introduced first for wage & salary earners followed by a gradual downgrading of negative gearing so business can adapt.
The salaries of Government Ministers & so-called top-bureaucrats should be settled via referendum at Govt. election.
After all, aren't they the "Public Servants" ?

Belly, perhaps you can do some math on corporate tax.

First calculate the taxes generated by these companies, taking into account GST, income tax by employees, company tax paid by consultants and alike, land tax on occupied land, tax on tolls if applicable, im sure ive missed some, then deduct what you deem as 'tax owing', remembering to allow for tax right offs and government incentives, then see where we are at.

My bet is they contribute 10 to 1 in what they generate to what you think the should be paying. If so, best to leave sleeping dogs lie I would suspect, but by all means do the math so we can at least put this issue to bed.

rechtub,
So, what's your opinion on a flat tax ? I'm of course thinking in the long term, not just the present financial year.

Indi, I have thought a financial transaction tax should at least be costed.

Our current tax systems are both inefficient and inadequate to provide our revenue needs for the future. We simply can not keep spending what we are while our tax revenues are dwindling.

rehctub,
yeah, sound idea & do away with income tax altogether as an incentive. Looking at the income tax deduction at each pay is demoralising enough when we know up front that that's merely the very first tax we pay. I don't believe people would necessarily put too much money away & out of circulation but it would give many a sense of finacial security having more funds in the Bank & accept that whenever they spend to buy they pay tax. That's how Government should work, alas.

Indi, if such a tax were implemented, I alone would be some $18K per year better of just in PAYG tax. If this can't stimulate the economy what can, because there wold be billions each year in extra dollars floating around, collecting a very small tax each and every time a transaction is made. It would be money making money, as opposed to the 'one off' PAYG tax that we have now.

It has been suggested that every other tax would be gone, along with all write off and write downs I would assume, and there would be no escaping the tax, even from the multi nations as every financial transaction would attract a tax. Traders and the like would obviously have a much lower FTT. Nobody is game to try it though. Go figure!

rechtub,
the transaction Tax is the way to go, that's the beauty of the didgital age, no escape from contributing for the good of all. yet, ironically, the very organisations that pushed the internet onto us are in fact the ones fighting against this one exceptionally fair use of it.
If only we could fing a way of taxing greed & stupidity, the coffers would be overflowing within days of implementation. We could always promise those having to pay the most that their contributions remain anonymous.

Yes but you only pay the most if you earn the most, what's unfair about that. Our money would do the rest.