What are the ramifications for the Catholic Church, and others, following the land mark decision of the Newcastle Magistrates Court to find a most senior cleric, the Catholic Archbishop of Adelaide Philip Wilson guilty of covering up child sexual abuse by a fellow priest. Although there is no evidence that Wilson was involved directly in pedophilia, he is looking at a possible two year jail term for his failure to inform authorities of the actions of the notorious pedophile priest James Fletcher. Wilson’s lack of action on the matter was most likely triggered by a misguided belief that he had to protect the so called good name of the church.
The implications of this decision is that it could see many of the Catholic hierarchy in Australia and elsewhere, this decision has made world wide news, heading to court to face similar charges. The Catholic Church fought a strenuous and expensive legal battle to defeat this persecution. They lost, and are now on notice that much of the Church leadership is under threat of new prosecutions for a different crime, the crime of failing to act and inform. Some of Wilson’s parishioners were angry at the decisions, believing he has been badly treated by the court. What do you think?

I am more interested in the ramifications for justice. Like everybody else, I don't have a clue whether Wilson sat on complaints about sexual crimes or not. I just do not understand how a court could find the man guilty when there is no evidence. He might have been told by of incidents by alleged victims. He said he doesn't remember (he has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's). Even if he did remember, but said he didn't, surely it is just one person's word against another's? It was all a long, long time ago.

Kiddy fiddling is vile. But this court case is a miscarriage of justice in my view.

Surprised that you think the Catholics have been 'persecuted' Paul :).

Paul,

"Surprised that you think the Catholics have been 'persecuted' Paul :)."

Slip of the finger or a repressed love of Catholicism or need of a Grammarly free subscription?

Catholic officials in the hierarchy have already been convicted of covering up pedophilia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_scandal_in_the_Roman_Catholic_Archdiocese_of_Philadelphia

david f,

I know. So what's your point? Were there also miscarriages of justice in those cases? I'm not interested enough to plough through them. I commented on this case only because Wilson was bisop in Adelaide, my city. He was tried in NSW because that state is the only one where there is a law that could pursue him, apparently. That's something I found out only last night, by the way; I have no particular interest in the Catholic church or paedophilia, just in this particular case. I don't know Wilson, but I have always found his public persona unlikeable. Justice and this particular court finding is my only care.

Is Mise,

It would be a bit of fun if Paul was a closet Catholic, wouldn't it?

Dear ttbn,

My point was that it wasn't such a landmark decision since the same decision had been made in another jurisdiction.

Yes, ttbn the poor souls are being persecuted, but look at the bright side, persecution for ones religion can only lead to a higher place in heaven. Issy persecution was the right word, how did guess, my repressed love of Catholicism, it knows no bounds. In fact its on a par with your love of guns. No its not, only kidding.

David, this outcome does add a new dimension to the ongoing saga of paedophilia crime, certainly in Australia. The decision means many within the church hierarchy, who may have felt they were safe from any possible prosecution for their cover up, are not open to legal action. Interesting. The Prosecution in the Wilson case are calling for a jail sentence.

Paul,

I'm glad that you added 'and others" in the OP; the ramifications are indeed widespread and the sooner all the transgressors are prosecuted the better.

I wonder if all the bbc staff who watched Jimmy Saville in action are trembling? I doubt it as leftist care little about kids but are more about hatred. That's why they ignore and make excuses for massive kiddy fiddling among the Indigeneous happening right now. More important to prosecute someone who might/should of done something 50 years ago.

Come on, Paul. Confess your Catholicism. It's good for the soul.

I tell you one thing that we would probably all agree on. The Catholic 'canon law' should have no more standing that Sharia law. Priests should be legally obliged to report to police any abuse of children in the same way as teachers, doctors etc are obliged to.

A little story: when my wife was teaching in a public school many years ago, she reported a case of sexual harassment against herself to the deputy head. He didn't believe her and nothing was done. And, the deputy head was a good friend of hers!

Archbishop Wilson is among a handful of Catholic clerics
in the world to be charged with this specific crime -
including French Cardinal Philippe Barbarin. The findings
in the Wilson case have come at an important time with
Cardinal George Pell to stand trial on multiple historic
sexual abuse charges later this year.

Pope Francis continues to oppose the need for mandatory
reporting of knowledge of child sexual abuse by clerics.

This verdict just may ensure that Catholic clerics will
no longer be out of the reach of the criminal justice
system.

The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to
Child Sexual Abuse recently recommended that failure to
report child sexual abuse become law in all Australian
states.

I can see 'the seal of the Confessional' being mulled over again.

The seal of the Confessional did not apply in many victim's cases.
Reporting took place outside the Confessional and was
hidden and covered up.

True, Foxy, but totally irrelevant to what I said,
"I can see 'the seal of the Confessional' being mulled over again."

It is very relevant - that excuse has and will continue
to be used over and over again. Standard church practice.

Foxy,

"The seal of the Confessional did not apply in many victim's cases.
Reporting took place outside the Confessional and was
hidden and covered up."

Which has nothing to do with my statement that
"I can see 'the seal of the Confessional' being mulled over again."

Reporting outside of Confession has absolutely nothing to do with what is told inside the Confessional because, as you truly say, "the seal of the Confessional did not apply in many victim's cases...".

Anyway, there is no way that the State can compel a Priest to repeat or report what he heard in Confession.

Paul seems to have an unwholesome interest in paedophilia and the Catholic Church.

Perhaps the police and others to whom this action was reported and ignored should also be prosecuted, such as the police, the politicians, the parents etc.

This is terrible.

An innocent man convicted and possibly jailed for conscientious non-action.

This brings us to the dark days of Stalin, where family members were set against each other: parents against children, children against parents, husband against wife and wife against husband, all sent to Siberian gulags for failing to inform the regime of the actions and thoughts of their beloved. Others were shot for failing to inform the Gestapo about Jews in hiding.

Suppose your mother tells you: "Son, I'm still sad about this miscarriage of what would have been your elder sister: I was 14 at the time and your father was 24, we kept it secret but been loving each other deeply ever since". According to this case and proposed legislation, the son must either to inform the regime and send his own father to jail, breaking his own, his mother's and his siblings' heart - or face jail himself.

Westerners are generally not aware about karma, but are still aware of the Golden Rule: That which you would hate done unto thyself - do not do unto others!

Would you like to be convicted and thrown in jail?
Then why would you do this to someone else?

Know that if your action causes somebody else to be incarcerated, you incur that karma that will cause you to be incarcerated yourself - if not in this lifetime then in a future one.

One should not provide the regime such information that is likely to put another in jail except:

1) If others are still at substantial risk from the perpetrator and you have no other way to protect them.

2) If you are a kshatriya by nature and the regime is legitimate and wholesome, then you should be doing your duty and accept the implications honourably, even if it means that you will be incarcerated yourself as a result.

Here, the perpetrator is DEAD and can no longer harm anyone. It all happened long ago, but the regime is ideologically all about revenge, never to forget, never forgive - well Christians, martyrdom times are upon us!

//Paul seems to have an unwholesome interest in paedophilia and the Catholic Church.//

Shadow, should I take offence at your innuendo. No I do not, I do take an interest in this matter. You sir, being an apologist for the actions of your church, your innuendo is understandable. One day I will tell you about my younger brother, 10 years my junior, who also attended a Catholic School. I believe the cases reported are a small minority, most choose to leave their experience in the past. I think many practising Catholics have an unwholesome interest in avoiding the subject of paedophilia and the Catholic Church.

Foxy, I mentioned Cardinal George Pell once, but my discussion didn't see the light of day, it was for understandable reasons. As usual your insight is correct, Frances and all the rest of the motley crew are going to one day have to bend, face reality, and stop resisting the inevitable.

Runner, in your typical fashion you try to protect the Catholic Church, by making it a left/right political debate, and using erroneously deflection. How many in your church have been prosecuted for pedophilia? Given the way you like to protect the religious on this matter I suspect none, if your heading the investigation.

ttbn, canon law should have no more standing that Sharia law. The only law I respect is the law of the land, not some religious guff!

David, I was aware of similar decisions in other countries, but it was landmark in as much as a legal precedent has now been set in Australia. I would think if there is an avenue for appeal then the Catholic Church will pursue it vigorously, they can not afford not to. If it was only the isolated case of Wilson, then the church could afford to throw him to the sharks, and write him off as a geriatric fool, but the widespread ramifications are too great for them to ignore.

Yuyutsu //An innocent man convicted and possibly jailed for conscientious non-action.// Rubbish.

«Yuyutsu //An innocent man convicted and possibly jailed for conscientious non-action.// Rubbish.»

No explanation?

But I probably understand your bias: this was a Catholic priest, a leader of the hated conservative class.

What if the news were: "A Greenpeace ship-captain failed to report to the police about an activist-sailor under him shooting and killing a Japanese whaler"? or "An activist fails to report friend who planted a bomb in a coal mine that threatened the great barrier-reef: the explosion that collapsed a mine-shaft and killed 3 miners was previously believed to be an operational accident"?

For me it is all the same: the freedom of non-action is sacred. Same for a Muslim who refuses to stand for a judge. Nobody should ever be forced to cooperate with a regime against their will.

Does this case mean persons who suspect or know of a paedophile could face two years imprison if they fail to tell police? Does it only apply to Catholic priests?

Dear Paul,

I am so sorry for forgetting to address you in my above post.

SM,
Yes where do the prosecutions end?

In NSW, maybe other states as well, a person can be prosecuted if he is given information about a possible crime and does not report it. So where does that leave the police, politicians, parents and others with church connections? It seems everyone knew about it going on and nothing was done. The priests, Brothers, Nuns were 'untouchable'

What still gets me is that most parents knew about it from when they attended the same schools and yet sent their own kids, of both sexes, to the same schools. With such knowledge, why would they put their own kids in danger of sexual abuse? Us non-catholics knew because our RC mates told us when we met.

Surely now many parents must have major guilt feelings

Dear Josephus,

«Does this case mean persons who suspect or know of a paedophile could face two years imprison if they fail to tell police? Does it only apply to Catholic priests?»

So it seems, including even the victim, including even if since then the victim and perpetrator have made up and became best mates, even married each other - apparently it is illegal for victims to forgive. Apparently also, victims are required by law to suffer further and be incarcerated themselves due to the acquiring the karma for incarcerating their perpetrators. If they fail to report, then at least their sentence is limited to two years.

97% of Catholic priests are NOT paedophiles. I wonder what the percentage would be in other sections of society, or society as whole. At least the clergy is taught right from wrong, and 3% obviously break down. But, how about atheists who have no grounding whatsoever in morals.

ttbn,

That's a bit harsh saying that atheists have no grounding in morals, I have family members and friends who are atheists and they all received a good grounding in moral behaviour from their parents, some of whom were also atheists.

Currently, two locals who had an excellent Christian grounding in morals are on the run from the law.

ttbn, making a false claim //97% of Catholic priests are NOT paedophiles// even the conservative estimate by the CC is 7% of their priests are paedophiles. That figure of 3% is looking dodgy.

"Extraordinary figures released by the Sex Abuse Royal Commission on Monday show 7 percent of all Catholic priests were alleged perpetrators of child sex abuse, and the average age of victims was pre-teen."

Paul,

Are you are suffering from early dementia?

I guess that your vendetta against the Catholic church has damaged your memory that I am an Atheist and my point that you were ignoring all the others in authority that failed to act on reports of paedophiles.

Paul,

It is not a "false claim"; it is fact. However, if it suits you to believe otherwise, I won't argue with you.

Here's an interesting link that claims that the problem is worse among Protestants although the author points out that abuse of the opposite sex is greater among Protestant clergy and that Catholic abuse is more likely to be homosexual.
Homosexual paedophilia does seem to be more in evidence among accused Catholic clergy in Australia.
http://www.catholicconvert.com/wp-content/uploads/SexInProtestantChurches.pdf

There is an article entitled ‘Evidence, Memory and the Law’ in today's Quadrant Online that also puts forward the opinions I expressed in my first post. I'm sure there will be a rush to read it :). It is not paywalled.

Shadow, you fail to comprehend, my opening line "What are the ramifications for the Catholic Church, and others" AND OTHERS. What does AND OTHERS mean. According to you //you (Paul 1405) were ignoring all the others// Well I didn't, the fact is Wilson is the only one found guilty at this time, and he happens to be a senior Catholic cleric.

ttbn, Of course you wont argue with me, you have nothing to support your 3% nonsense. What motivated you to create the erroneous figure of 3%, when even the CC puts the figure at 7%, a figure accepted by the Sex Abuse Royal Commission. Without foundation are you trying to diminish the culpability of the Catholic Church in this matter, it looks that way.

Issy, there certainly is a problem in the Protestant Churches with paedophilia. As there is in many non-religious organizations and in some sections of the Australian community in general. All of that needs to be exposed, and the wrongs righted as far as possible. More importantly, I do not believe churches and other organization have done nearly enough to address the systemic problems within their organizations. They make promises, and dole out plenty of platitudes, but what have they really changed, very little.

No Paul. I will not argue with you because it is futile arguing with a bigoted Christian-hating Green.

Is Mise,

"have family members and friends who are atheists and they all received a good grounding in moral behaviour from their parents, some of whom were also atheists".

I'm sure you think that is the case, but my money says that there has to be a Christian influence somewhere in the background, because that is what the Western way of life is based on. It is not only family and friends who influence us.

"In all the copious debates about religion and society,
one of the key questions is never properly canvassed.

What would Australia feel like without an active
vaguely relevant Catholic Church?

While today we talk about its poor legacies like
sexual abuse. Consider the vacuum caused by the surrender
of a hopeful Church, together with its ritual life,
its routine generosity, its largesse of spirit, its roadmap
for a soul'd journey through life. Does any of this
still matter to us?

See how these Christians love each other, was the Romans'
awestruck observation of the earliest Church people. Maybe
our version should be about hope. See how these 21st century
Catholics' hope and how it revives them. And then how it
encourages them to act as though there is more to life than
meets the eye. This is the call that many can hardly bear to
hear. We can but live in hope that some of us do."
(Geraldine Doogue).

There is no doubt that the clerical profession has taken
a severe battering and the respect for the priesthood is,
understandably at an all-time low. The cover-ups, the
protection of abusive clergy, and the refusal to admit
egregious mistakes are unjustifiable. We have not yet even
begun to calculate the damage these crimes have done to
people's trust and to the reputation of the church.

Trust is going to have to be built up from the ground up.
From Bishops and Priests. Hopefully the Church will be
able to do precisely that.

ttbn,

"I'm sure you think that is the case, but my money says that there has to be a Christian influence somewhere in the background, because that is what the Western way of life is based on"

In some cases, the influence is Hindu, Buddhist and, dare I say it, Muslim.

The Christian Way means acting toward offending persons in a way they do not deserve. Forgiving one who injures you. Showing grace to an enemy. This principle does have its abusers, but it outweighs the principle of an eye for an eye; balanced on equal justice.

Josephus, is that the justification you give for the churches hierarchy covering up of paedophilia in the ranks. A bit of that "acting toward offending persons in a way they do not deserve". I'll agree, that's what they did. Now Wilson is hopefully going to jail for it.

ttbn, justify your figure of 3%, you can't because you simply invented it to help minimise the extent of the problem within the Catholic Church. You are not the only apologists out there, there are many such people.

//bigoted Christian-hating Green// wrong again ttbn, there are many many examples of good Christian folk in the community, whose selflessness knows no bounds, and I admire them for it. The Catholic Priest Fr.Chris Riley, along with the Uniting Church Minister Bill Crews just to name two. Fantastic human beings, how much better their presence on earth has made society, immeasurable. So pull your head in and directly answer my claim about you.

Paul,

I didn't make it up; it was written by someone who knew about such things. You don't 'justify' what you claim, so don't ask me to do something you can't do. I really don't care whether you believe me or not anyway, so ta ta.

// it was written by someone// written by who and where? Written by the apologists ttbn on the OLO Forum, that's the who and where. What a cop out.

Paul and ttbn,
I see that you have been having a debate about how many priests were involved in kiddy fiddling in the RC church.

I recall seing figure on this not so long ago, when I was looking for figures on child sex abuse and Incest. But cannot recall exactly where.

The figures for the number of priests in the RC church were relativeally low but the thing to remember is that they are estimates only.

I hope this link gives you both further insight into the issue.

https://aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi429

Banjo,

Thanks. There's no debating with Paul. He made his mind up about things long ago and that's that. I'm happy with 97% of priests NOT being paedophiles as, probably, is Paul with what he believes.

Overall, most kiddy fiddling is done within families. But nobody wants to say much about that. Much more convenient to use the foul crime to bash Christianity, particularly Catholicism, with. I'm not a Catholic, and really just a nominal Christian, but I have little time for people who jump on anything to hammer the religion of their own society with, but who gutlessly apologise for Islam.

Hi Banjo,

Pope Francis cited that only 2% of priests in the Catholic
Church have been found to be pedophiles.

The following link explains the 9 myths about priestly
pedophilia:

http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/common-misconceptions/9-myths-about-priestly-pedophilia.html

Geez your a sucker for 'media release' news Foxy.
- The type of stuff that says 'Move on, nothing to see here'.

I heard that George Pell trafficked 100 boys to compromise the Catholic church and install that ungodly scumbag Francis.

https://www.facebook.com/AlexanderEmerickJones/videos/10156556285333459/ Muslim Men in the West have rights to rape children as this is their culture.

Dear AC,

Wrong.

All I'm doing is merely responding to Banjo's question
about what percentage of Catholic priests are pedophiles.
And other broadening the discussing. If you don't like
my posts - don't read them. I usually don't read yours.

What you all should be paying attention to is the arrest of Tommy Robinson and what you can expect from political correctness and Islam going forward.
This country is headed towards total destruction with the left's support of Islam.
http://pjmedia.com/trending/anti-islamist-activist-tommy-robinson-jailed-in-england-for-reporting-on-muslim-rape-gang-trial/amp/

Dear AC,

You've got some cheek!

You accuse me of being a sucker for "media release" news
and then you quote from "PJMedia."

And expect to be taken seriously?

Gotta laugh!

BREAKING: RIOTS IN LONDON AFTER TOMMY ROBINSON ARREST - JOURNALIST SENTENCED TO 13 MONTHS IN PRISON SAME DAY AS ARREST - FREE PRESS IS DEAD IN UK AS MEDIA BLACKOUT ATTEMPTS TO BURY STORY Of CHILD RAPE BY MUSLIM MEN.

Well, he'd been warned, looks like the slammer this time.

Hi Foxy,
Sorry, I didn't mean for you to take that to heart, but I suppose it was kind of insensitive.
- You do often (but not always) post those kinds of links though -
The ones that just give key points of what they want you to think
'Move along; Nothing to see here'.
- And not the 'other' depraved, ugly, entangled web of lies, corruption and deceit of the same story that lies beneath.

I didn't actually read the entire article of the link I posted, and I've never even been to that website before.
I actually saw videos of the story earlier today on Infowars and posted the link 'based on the headline relating to Muslim rape gangs being in the link' and because it was in line with what I already knew.
They closed Whitehall and there are articles on Fox about it now I think but they were trying to keep the story out of the news.
Warning to everyone, this is what we can expect when Muslims reach 20%.

Dear AC,

Thank You for apologising.

I'm sorry as well. Please accept my apology.

I've had a difficult day today - health wise.
Anyway, no excuse. I should not have lashed
out like that. I guess it proves - I'm only
human after all. I'll try to be calmer in future
and not have such a knee jerk reaction.

I hope we're good now.

PS: I do read your posts.

Hi Foxy,
You're welcome, and no need to apologise.
I know I post things different to others; that I'm sometimes blunt and also that whatever I post I have to accept any criticism that goes along with it.
I also think that probably the kind of news that you read is the kind that warns you against the kind of news I read.
And if you don't read my posts, I would've valued and respect your honesty anyway.
Maybe my writing style or content isn't to your taste.
- And you're certainly entitled your own opinion.
I know how the media twists everything around, and would portray my news as fake news and that you might sometime be suspicious of the sites I sometimes link to, so it's ok.

I'm sorry to hear about your health, and I hope you get some rest or whatever is needed and are feeling better soon.

The Media is not allowed to mention Tommy Robinson's name; but hundreds gather to chant. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tommy-robinson-protest-downing-street-whitehall-free-latest-arrest-police-a8371616.html Because Mohamed took kafir girls as sex slaves it is culturally acceptable for Muslim men to do the same. The West is trying to accommodate Islamic followers and the Left of politics is welcoming them and their values.

Hey Josephus,
Apperently the judge ordered the media not to talk about the Muslim rape case, and also media has been playing down or ignoring the arrest and protests relating to Tommy Robinson.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/05/26/right-wing-activist-tommy-robinson-reportedly-jailed-after-filming-outside-child-grooming-trial.html

So really there's 2 issues;
The crime he was reporting on,
And government attempts to cover it up by silencing him.

Here's the Infowars report, it gives more details of the case Tommy Robinson was reporting on.
It's worth watching the first 10 mins.

http://youtu.be/wVaosvTeuw0

Here's another report from Stefan Molyneux.

http://youtu.be/4CX8UKrdQI8

To eveyone else, in regards to the Catholic Church there's a recent interview with Knights of Malta member Leo Zagami here. Skip to 14.30

http://youtu.be/cbkWxl67h8w

https://metro.co.uk/2017/04/13/29-people-in-court-over-170-charges-of-sexual-exploitation-of-18-children-6571793/

yep Josephus the left certainly show how much they really care about paedophille by their silence. Imagine it was the Catholic church who committed these sickening acts at the same rate. Cases from 50 years are brought up time and time again while they are silent about the crrent abuse.

runner and Josephus, as two of the forums "religious" you act as apologists for the Catholic Church on the issue of paedophilia within its Australian ranks. Preferring to deflect to a peripheral political discussion about the machinations of what is happening in the UK.
Given your consistent minimising attitude on the subject in relation to Australian religious institutions, I would not be surprised if your own churches were not hot beads of such behavior. I have asked previously what numbers of paedophiles are on the loose in your churches, and what steps if any, have the leadership taken to curtail their behaviour. My inquires have always been met with silence from you pair as to any local knowledge on this subject. Fell free to answer now, as if you would.

Dear Paul,

«runner and Josephus, as two of the forums "religious" you act as apologists for the Catholic Church on the issue of paedophilia within its Australian ranks.»

Me too am acting as an apologist for the Catholic Church, though not on the issue of paedophilia, rather on the issue of non-disclosure and non-cooperation with the stupid secular regime.

To be clear, I believe that religious institutions should weed out paedophiles in their ranks and protect their young members, but they should do so from within, including by methods that are presently illegal.

My previous reply to you was also, so far, met with silence.

Yuyutsu, lets look at the reality. In NSW we have very good laws that compel doctors to report to police their suspicions of child abuse. Time and again charges have been laid following these reports. Before such laws were in place at best reports were infrequent, if at all. Today the police spend a lot of time at the Children's Hospital interviewing and then laying charges against abousers, doctors are very good at identifying child abuse, despite the erroneous stories of the perpetrators and their partners. Do you agree with this law.

There is a place in society for civil disobedience, but its not to be confused with protecting criminals from prosecution. There are laws about hindering police investigations, or being an accessory before or after the fact, laws on perjury etc, all necessary laws in my view.

Dear Paul,

Have you read my first post from Thursday, 24 May 2018 11:42:18 PM?

If you did, then it should be evident that I would never agree with such terrible laws.

Look at the impossible predicament of the doctor: if he doesn't report what he knows, then he will be imprisoned for up to 2 years, but if he does report, then he will be imprisoned for perhaps 10-15 years.

If I were in place of that doctor and happened to hear about a case of child abuse, my best option would be to rush to the airport and take the first plane out of Australia, never to return - damned either way, who would ever want to be a doctor, a psychologist or a counsellor?

Further, what about paedophiles who are remorseful and want to straighten up their ways? Knowing that professional helpers are obliged to dob them in, they would never seek help. Conscientious victims too, or such victims who understand the law of karma, will also avoid help if they know that the professional helper is obliged to report the perpetrator even against their own wishes. Also what about such cases of adult-underage sexual contact where no abuse actually took place, where the "abuser" and "victim" were and remain in harmony and the condition of paedophilia is only technical? Should doctors be forced to ruin both lives (and their own too, due to the incurred karma)?

I do agree however with such laws that ALLOW professional helpers to break their patient/client confidentiality by reporting paedophiles to the police IF THEY WISH, provided that they believe that the paedophile is still dangerous to some extent (but excluding such historical cases where the paedophile has since been reformed and/or is incapacitated so s/he can no longer do any future harm).

Actively protecting criminals from prosecution or hindering a police investigation is a different story, not to mention being an accessory to a crime and perjury, but the unique freedom to remain silent and do nothing must be absolutely sacred.

Paul, All persons working with children, the aged and disabled in our Church attend Safe Places instruction each 2 years and need a Police Check. Though they are asking all adults to have a police clearance because of the presence of children. This includes working with single adults.

Interesting read this thread, it is my view we all must understand not just one Church or even Churches only, had pedophiles in them,filth that they are we should take the victims side every time, our justice system seems to ignore that

Dear Josephus,

«All persons working with children, the aged and disabled in our Church attend Safe Places instruction each 2 years and need a Police Check.»

This is not something to be proud of - is there such a crisis of faith in your church that they no longer fear God and instead resort to the authority and methods of the secular regime?

//filth that they are we should take the victims side every time//

Couldn't agree more, Belly. Apologists for rock spiders are as bad as the rock spiders themselves.

Yuyutsu, the Catholic Church relied on God to deal with paedophiles within the ranks, but it seems he was asleep on the job and the bastards ran riot. When the perverted were "discovered" by the hierarchy of the organization, the stock response was to cover it up. blame the victims, go into damage control, disgusting behaviour.

At the first instance you bemoaned the fact Archbishop Wilson was convicted of a crime, based on the above. I applauded the decision, as it indicated that the hierarchy are also seen by the law as responsible to some degree for the actions of the perverted within. Good!

Now you are contesting the validity of society requiring those who have access to children professionally, through their work, or by volunteering with some organization, being scrutinize as to their past behaviour through the 'Working with Children Check'.

You say in responding to Josephus, //This is not something to be proud of - is there such a crisis of faith in your church that they no longer fear God and instead resort to the authority and methods of the secular regime?//

What would you have them do, nothing? I forgot, rely on the sleeping god. Free access for the perverted would again be the outcome. We had that, and look at the result.

Josephus, I am glad to hear your church has through both legal requirements, and voluntary action, put in place procedures that help protect the vulnerable from human predators.

I am not surprised that some Catholic clergy have attempted to avoid the Working With Children Check, by appealing to the exemption clauses within the act. In one instance, not that long ago, a parish priest of long standing at a church attached to a primary school, chose to retire on health grounds rather than be subjected to a check. Possibly it was a coincidence, I can't say, the man has never been convicted of anything as far as I am aware

Once I was a full on devoted born again, now it is my view no God ever existed,and seems pedophiles in Churches shared that view, if not how could they ever ever do that?punishment,well not one should walk free, but, if we are not careful and we must be, some will murder the victim to try protecting them selves from future arrest,

Dear Belly,

I agree with your observation.

Religious believers recognise that the worst possible punishment is alienation from God. God doesn't need to do anything because by performing sinful acts, people alienate themselves from God. This is true for everyone whether they are aware of it or otherwise, but if one is unaware of it, then how come they hold an office in church?

As for punishment, nobody can walk free while burdened by the heavy weight of sin.

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Dear Paul,

I am not familiar with Wilson's case: if, as opposed to just saying nothing to the state-authorities, he actively covered up the case or blamed the victim, then this is indeed a disgusting behaviour. As a bishop, he should have comforted and supported the victims, then solve the issue - internally.

In the first instance, he should have instructed the offending priest(s) to wear at all times a special robe with a clear warning sign, front and back: "I am a sinner who is dangerous to children". This would probably be the end of that, otherwise further actions can be taken which I won't go into now.

Yes, neither churches nor others should cooperate with the state and rely on its mechanisms: this is not to say that they cannot solve the problem of child-abuse in other ways.

I wonder why the Catholic Church in Australia seems to have a majority of homosexual paedophiles in its errant clergy when according to the world news the majority in other countries are heterosexual?

Look while I feel about 30 I am 72 years old, my birth saw the Churches very much in control, it would have been unthinkable to not believe in God back then, COE was my birth Church but Catholics ruled,School home and politics,followed the faith till my mid 30,s but looking back wasted those years, faith, not race, has divided our world,some more than others and every faith is stronger in poorer country's,pedophiles infest any group they can be near children,did they ever believe in their God?

Dear Belly,

Religious institutions are intended to guide our spirit, not to control the world. Fortunately they no longer do the latter, not in Australia.

It would be rare and unlikely for a paedophile to plan in advance: "I see that there are kids in this organisation, so let me join them, pretend to share their beliefs, then study intensively for some years so I can be admitted as a staff-member, thereby perhaps gain access to children".

More commonly, a perpetrator is initially sincere and unaware of their dangerous inclinations, then faces temptation and slips, first only in thought and s/he hates it and even comes to hate her/himself for it, but then as the spiritual crisis deepens they gradually slip further and deeper.

A church may find it nearly impossible to detect a deliberate pre-meditated perpetrator early, but it should be equipped to handle, support and help out those within its ranks who face a genuine spiritual crisis, hopefully while their sins are still in thought only.

In her beautiful series "The Starbridge", Susan Howatch describes episodes of clerical sin and redemption through proper spiritual counselling within the Anglican Church, showing how a church can and should revise, renew and revitalise itself through the holy spirit. The stories are fictional, but realistic.

The books are:

Glittering Images
Glamorous Powers
Ultimate Prizes
Scandalous Risks
Mystical Paths
Absolute Truths

- warmly recommended.

Issy, your question is a simple one to answer, the word is OPPORTUNITY. Nuns, all women, tended to "look after" the girls. Just beat them senseless and nothing sexual, that all happened when they got back to the convent. However the boys were a different story, they were in the "care" of the Priests and Brothers, all men, and those guys were attracted mostly to pubescent boys aged about 12. Some behavioural experts believe these predictors do not distinguish or identify pubescent boys any differently than they would a female at around the same age. These men also felt in control of the situation with a young child, something they would not necessarily feel with an older person, male or female. These paedophiles could be described as bisexual, rather than homosexual or heterosexual.

One measure the Catholic Church can take to elevate the problem of paedophiles in the ranks, and stick to their "chastity" rule, is they could make it official church policy to pay for professional providers, male or female, of sexual favours for their clergy. They don't have to call it sex, they don't even have to call it prostitution, they could call it a fringe benefit of the job if they want. I would have no problem with that.

Yuyutsu, you are probably sincere in your beliefs, but to say //he should have instructed the offending priest(s) to wear at all times a special robe with a clear warning sign, front and back: "I am a sinner who is dangerous to children".// That nonsense is simply mitigating the crime, it does nothing for anyone. The perpetrators need to be punished severally, the victims need to be helped compassionately, and the system needs to change.

Belly, the problem of paedophilia in the Catholic third world is immense. I go on about Australia, and rightly so, but what goes on in poor Catholic countries makes Australia's problems seem rather small. In those places very little has been done by the Church, or the secular authorities to control church pedophiles. The problems there go on infinitum.

Dear Paul,

Saying "nonsense" without explanation is not an answer.

If an offending priest is a sincere Christian who just had a slip, then he will obey the order to wear this robe and then everyone will know and the children will be protected - otherwise he would have to leave the church, so again he would have no access to children.

The desire to protect children is Christian, but the desire to punish is not. All offenders will be punished anyway, that's the law of nature which will take its course regardless, but you should not want it done by your own hands lest you join this chain of violence yourself and be punished for it in turn. Besides, imprisonment, cruel and senseless in itself, also punishes the tax-payer: what wrong have you and I done that we need to pay for other people's crimes?

Have compassion for victims and protect them, that's enough.

Yuyutsu. I gave you an explanation why it's nonsense, mitigating the crime, it does nothing for anyone. The perpetrators need to be punished severally, the victims need to be helped compassionately, and the system needs to change. Wearing some silly robe does not achieve any of what I have said is need. Where is the severe punishment, how are the victims helped, where is the systemic change to the system.

Would you apply the same to bank robbers and others? Or is this some special treatment for the religious.

Religion is not above the law in a secular society. The law provides punishments for paedophiles. It's called prison. The boys in there will exact some justice. Oh, and paedophile priests should be defrocked, expelled, and prohibited from contact with children. Anyone in the cult aiding, abetting, or covering up, should be charged with the same crimes. These criminals deserve the worst punishments - strutting around holier than thou claiming to be gods rep on earth while raping the most innocent among us, denying it, blaming and threatening victims, shaming them, promising punishment if they ever breathe a word. Evil.

Dear Paul,

According to the law of karma, no one can escape punishment, religious or otherwise. Nevertheless, no intelligent person would want to be the one through which this law works thus be chained by it themselves - unless they are a kshatriya (by nature, not merely by birth, which is where India deteriorated with its notorious caste system).

Policemen and judges are normally kshatriyas (since others would not make good policemen or be able to last long in that roll). Kshatriyas should perform their duty regardless of the severe consequences, for if you cause another to suffer, say by incarceration, then you too will suffer similarly - if not in this lifetime then in a future one, yet for a kshatriya, duty is above personal convenience. Also, kshatriyas would go by their nature and do what they do regardless of any warnings, including what me or you write over these pages.

What is so wrong, being the topic of this discussion, is the demand for people who are not kshatriyas to behave like kshatriyas and perform such duties that are against their nature and ethics.

Religious people have weaknesses like everyone else: a type of lust in the case of paedophiles and greed in the case of bank robbers. Besides the priority of preventing the suffering of victims, religion also aspires to heal the weaknesses of potential perpetrators and healthy religions have the tools to do so. Revenge has no place in religion.

Among the faithful, there's a better chance for softer measures to work and if they can, then they should be tried first. Wearing a robe that tells everyone "I'm a sinner who finds it hard to control my sexual urges towards children" or "I'm a sinner who finds it hard to control my greed and not take by force what is not mine", should usually be sufficient to warn in advance parents, children or banks, thus prevent suffering. The genuinely faithful will willingly wear that robe - those who wouldn't, aren't genuine so they should be kicked out of their churches, then face the kshatriyas outside.

Dear HereNow,

Speaking of evil, while not belittling the evils you listed against innocent children, the ones who forcibly impose their social/secular laws over others and seek to punish them for failing to follow these laws, also answer this very description.

No need for police, courts and jails, we have the law of karma, where no one can escape punishment. Yeah, stick some silly robe on them and wait for the kshatriyas mob to rock up and fix everything. I don't think that is going to happen any time soon.

How did the fable of God take over this thread? fact is child molesters are pure filth, and come from every walk of life, I spoke about the Christian connection ONLY to highlight my disappointment that so many, who told us they served a God proved to me at least they never did

Dear Belly,

Child molesters are filthy, but are not pure filth - they do what they do because they have impurities.

The wise would fight the filth and the mechanisms of attracting it, rather than the individuals who attracted filth and became filthy.

There are 50 shades of sinners and among them, yes, are those who pretend to serve God and never meant to, but also there are those who started with the intention to serve God, but slipped and succumbed to temptation: they could desperately want to become clean again, but do not know how or lack the strength. These should be helped.

The idea of ordering them to wear robes with appropriate warnings, goes a long way to help both their victims and themselves. The threat of jail on the other hand, only drives them underground and prevents them from seeking help. Ideally, potential offenders should start wearing such robes before they even did any harm to a child, while they still sin in thought only.