The reason that it is impractical is as any genealogist will tell you
is that in a hundred years almost everyone will have some aboriginal
antecedents.
Note how many light skinned aboriginals are seen today.
A vast number of people are descended from Henry VIII.

How will electors be determined and who would be elected to the suggested body ?
DNA testing would have to be done but as the years go by the testing
would find high positive results, so high the test would be meaningless.

I wasn't aware that there was such a referendum proposed. The one on 'recognition' is dead in the water, thanks to the ludicrous 'from the heart' piffle, and the totally unrealistic demands of the aboriginal industry. And it's a dead cert that Australians would never tolerate more than one legislative body.

Bazz, the premise of this thread is a nonsense. Despite what the PM says, the Voice To Parliament is not intended to be a legislative body. Having said that, I'd like to see it being given the power to veto and cancel the government's use of the Race Powers in the constitution - I suppose that would technically make it legislative albeit in an extremely limited way.

I also think your timescale's a bit off. Disregarding the impact of immigration, it would take about a century just for Aboriginal Australians to become the majority. Factoring in immigration, it will probably take twice as long.

But the main reason your premise is nonsense is that the proposal is that it's designed to address the problems of the present. If it is not needed in the 22nd century, we can have another referendum to abolish it. Or maybe it could be done automatically, by including a sunset clause that can't be lengthened without another referendum. Either way, the problem you anticipate is really a non issue.

' How will electors be determined and who would be elected to the suggested body ?'

Let me see Bazz. Selection criteria

1. Blame white males for all your woes
2. Ignore some of the disgusting aspects of your own culture
3. Not acknowledge any of the benefits that British brought to this nation
4. Continue to cover up the billions of wasted money with little results thus far.
5. Fight for the abc to be funded to continue its dishonest and flawed narrative.

Careful there runner, the truth often gets hidden by a good story on this site. Either that or you get called a bigot, racist or homophobic just for voicing an opinion based on what has/is actually happening. This, unsustainable and reckless immigration policy, the funding of the likes of domestic violence where they treat the symptom yet ignore the cause, and government incompetence resulting in wasted billions will see this nation go down the gurgler.

I am getting very sick of aboriginals.

If someone had not come along, like us, they would still be leading a very mean hard life, with a life expectancy of about 35 years.

Time they shut their mouths, except to say thankyou occasionally.

Aiden, the timing I agree is difficult but no doubt the assimilation
rate is increasing. Remember it has already being going on for over two hundred years.
With the interracial changes that have taken place over the last 70
years or so and the disappearance of difference between aboriginals
and Europeans the assimilation rate must be increasing.

The gathering at Ularu last year wanted a legislative body together
with a Treaty. That would be permanent.
It would establish a privileged class of people that would eventually
be indistinguishable from everyone else.
Even today some aboriginals have light brown hair and blue eyes.

Aiden, just reread your post.
The aborigines will never become the "majority" in the sense you meant.
They will become the majority because they will be merged with us all.
It is like trying to sort out the Saxons among all us Anglo Saxons err
Celtic-Anglo Saxons !

Dear Bazz,

Don't know why you have a problem with this. The Kiwis did it over 150 years ago. Over there you can either be on the general roll or decide to be on the one that votes for a Maori representative in seven reserved electorates.

"In New Zealand politics, Māori electorates, colloquially also called Māori seats, are a special category of electorate that gives reserved positions to representatives of Māori in the New Zealand Parliament. Consequently, every area in New Zealand is covered by both a general and a Māori electorate; there are currently seven Māori electorates."

"Māori electorates operate much as do general electorates, but have as electors people who are Māori or of Māori descent, and who choose to place their names on a separate electoral roll rather than on the "general roll"."

Wikipedia

Seems to work pretty bloody well there so what's your issue?

Dear Hasbeen,

Mate you have spent far more of your life than I have living off the public teat but I don't hear too many words of thanks from you.

And what on earth is this?

“If someone had not come along, like us, they would still be leading a very mean hard life, with a life expectancy of about 35 years.”

In Victoria the full blood aboriginal population went from over 15,000 to just 80 within 40 odd years and you think you have the right to say they were better off? What a racist, sanctimonious, pompous, uncaring, shallow Australian you come across as. Go learn some history my friend.

Telling us what the Kiwis did Steely is surely advising us not to fall for the same trap. One quick glance at the NZ parliament today confirms that.

Incidentally I probably paid for your education buddy. What a waste of money that was.

The question of who's abo and who is not is easy. It won't be long and we won't have any abo's. No not the wannabees. They will hang on for as long as they have something to gain. I have said again and again the only TRUE abo's are the ones with an unbroken blood line. So as long as a pure blood abo has a kid with another pure blood, then that kid is an abo. End of story. All this other rubbish is contrived by those with agenda. If we are to be taken seriously by the rest of the world, we have to stop all the BS. If we want to grow up we must firstly stop treating minorities as special and throwing money at them at the drop of a hat. The next one is a little more difficult. The politicians have to stop stealing millions from us, hidden as back door payments added to the proceeds of large contracts and the like. I have always believed that anyone born in Australia is Australian, and that's it. You can have whatever background you have, but that's all it is, your background. We should NEVER accept an abo calling himself or have any attachment or feeling abo, if their is any non-abo blood in their background. How arrogant are these bloody wannabees, so keen are they to gain from calling themselves abo, that they are prepared to dis-regard and malign the many other non-abo ancestors which form part of their bloodline, family tree and history. As for the Kiwi example, pe-lease, just like our 'SORRY' BS, the Kiwi govt is reaping money out via these stupid nonsensical apologies. Steele R now your numbers are more realistic than those of the wannabees. I would consider your stats because over 40 years the true pure blood abo's died off and that's why the small number. Eventually (in theory) all the pure bloods will die off and that will be the end of the Australian Aborigine. What remains are Australians; with mixed blood.

Dear ALTRAV,

This is not normally my style however since you are so keen on three latter labels, and I always endevour to return a conversation in the same manner it was delivered, let us try on a fresh framing of your logic, just for arguments sake of course.

I am completely clueless how on earth a bloody wog like yourself thinks they can call themselves Australian. Unless you have some Aboriginal blood in you or you or your ancestors fought for this country or you are at least 5th generation then you will always remain just a visiting wog with an inflated opinion of himself. Oh you might want to call yourself an Australian just to access our free healthcare and education, and you might have a pretty little bit of paper saying you are a citizen, and you might even claim to have been born here, but you aren't Australian really are you, you are just a wog. In fact you have a pretty low opinion of this country and its people don't you. I am getting so bloody sick of arrogant wannabe wogs like yourself trying to claim they are true Australians. It is utter BS. You come over here and within a generation you are claiming free services, provided in a good measure by the minerals dug from Aboriginal lands, like it is your right.

So unless you can provide a bloodline from an ABORIGINAL or from someone who fought for this country or from a 5th generation Australian then you really need to stop holding you bloody hand out and living off the rest of us true Australians.

Bloody self entitled wogs. The whole bloody lot of you need to just shut your gobs until you have properly earned your spot.

There we go mate. I tried to encapsulate your logic the best I could. I hope you feel I did it justice. Do you have another one for me? Looking forward to it.

Hi Aidan,

" .... the Voice To Parliament is not intended to be a legislative body." No indeed, just a ginger group sitting on the side-lines, all 'voice' (with the ever-present threat to oppose some piece of legislation, thereby dooming it) and no responsibility. So perhaps your implication that the Australian electorate are all mugs may not come about.

Did ATSIC work ? No. Why was that ? Are there 'voices' current ? With five thousand Indigenous organisations; and a major consultative body with a very long name, therefore extremely important; with any Indigenous person free to call for the "Fxxking" of Australia and issuing an incitement to arson on a grand scale; with a plethora of Indigenous 'spokespeople' given free rein in the media; with Indigenous MPs in almost all parliaments, and many responsible for ministries - that's not a 'voice' ? Come off it, Aidan - any Indigenous person (and his/her dog) has a voice.

As for disruption to any parliamentary flow, imagine yet another Tasmania imposed - conveniently from the outside - on federal Parliament. Or alternative, another group of de facto cross-benchers, sniping to their hearts' content, utterly free of having to wear any consequences, always with sticks to shove up the government.

Yes, let's put all this to a popular vote, and bury it for decades, effectively forever, given that the indigenous entity seems to be unravelling as a unified political force.

Cheers,

Joe

What would a ALB do & who would comprise such a body?

In answer to the first part. Absolutely nothing, just a excitable talk fest. Much like all politicians are inclined to do.

The second part. That would be comprised of all the out of work Academic Aboriginals looking for a well paid job. After-all one has to do something with all that Socialistic crap knowledge that has been fed to them at Uni. Ay.

I could see them demanding all sorts of free goodies that they would syphoned off before it gets to the real people that require them. Eg, a new Mercedes every year because the old one run out of petrol in the bush & was left to rot. Lots more money for schemes that never eventuate & all the money just gets used up in Administration.

Yep. The more things change the more they stay the same.

Does anyone know what this aboriginal body would actually advocate for.? What policies it would object to?
I mean, what exactly is the objective here? Separate laws for aboriginal people? A separate state? Different welfare payments? Free housing and business grants?
I cannot see what needs to be legislated for these days. Aboriginal people have their own legal service, their own health service, a huge educational input, an aboriginal housing department, and thousands of representative organisations funded by government and totally run by aboriginal people.
Remote communities are all managed by elected councils, including the local store and any small enterprises they may have running.
All that really needs to be sorted out now is the land tenure issue. All aboriginal title land needs to be handed over to the local communities and taken out of the control of the land councils because corruption and fraud have destroyed any credibility these organisations might have once had.
After land is handed over to local councils we all get a big supply of popcorn and watch the ensuing blood bath as aboriginal families fight to the death over free land.

Big Nana: Does anyone know what this aboriginal body would actually advocate for.?

Yep, better pay & more Aboriginal staff at higher pay. Straight off the bat.

Big Nana: What policies it would object to?

Anything White.

Big Nana: I mean, what exactly is the objective here?

better pay & more Aboriginal staff at higher pay.

Big Nana: Separate laws for aboriginal people? A separate state? Different welfare payments? Free housing and business grants?

All of the above as long as Australia pays for it all. Of course if Aboriginals are given separate Laws that would open the gates for mahommedeans to have Sharia Law. Ay.

SteeleR, pretty much all you said was rubbish. I have never bludged off this country as much as it appears you have. I and my family, not only paid for you and your lazy lot, we actually helped build and develop this country/state for you and your lazy entitled lot. I have always had top private hospital cover, how about you? No? Medicare? AMS? I have never accepted ANY handouts like the dole and things only you and your lot know about. I don't need to go on I'm wasting my time with people like you. As for calling you abo's, you sanctimonious moron, I always abbreviate, so you calling me a wog is too late that's how Aussies talk. If YOU don't like it, too bad. Go and cry somewhere else you won't get any sympathy here. One reason wogs succeed is that we are proud people. Unlike you lot you don't give a sh!t because; I actually don't know why. You have a history and a background that goes back a long way. You did nothing by way of progress in all that time and you have the gall to criticise us for now offering you EVERYTHING. Your whole submission is moot and I am sure that the more aware readers will see through your attempt at point scoring. I am by any definition a wog, even though I was born here. When you say, 'go back to where you came from'. I AM. I don't care one way or another. Whereas it appears it bothers you. In my business life I have been described, in media articles as, 'an Australian born Italian designer'. I had nothing to do with this tag, it was all the work of the journo's. I read about it when it was printed just like everyone else. BTW I don't lay awake at night thinking about who I am. I know who I am. For starters I'm a lot more righteous person than you will ever be with your attitude and agenda. Make your own way, without hand outs. LIKE WE HAD TO.

//I know who I am. For starters I'm a lot more righteous person than you will ever be//

Anybody believe that load of cobblers? Everybody knows bloody dagos are liars, crooks, bludgers and useless drunken layabouts. And this slimy greaseball wants us to believe that he's the exception to the rule? Get ya hand off it, wogboy.

Toni, good to see your true persona. Before you can lecture me or anyone else for that matter, show me what you've done to be taken seriously. I take it your either a wannabee or a w@nker, either way you don't obviously think things through. OK so let's begin I have designed vehicles, equipment and machinery that helped open the Northwest making it more accessible to expansion and mining startups. I have designed and built vehicles for both the domestic and mining industry. I have exported my works/cars overseas. Some examples are Japan, Malaysia, Singapore, even the Sultan of Brunei. I think you get it, I won't waste any more time on this topic. BTW Toni you are a nasty piece of work. You've got a problem, and I strongly recommend you have it seen to. Now I get it. The wogs and dago's that are known to people are on the record as working harder and more conscientiously than people like yourself. When was the last time you handled an axe to help clear trees down South so the Aussie land owner could begin farming. When was the last time you handled a shovel preparing for roads to be laid out. And all this in temperatures that you could cook eggs in. No smart arse you want to know the truth about the first wogs in Australia, just ask me not your scummy moronic mates, who were not even sperm when all this first happened. Oh and BTW I'll bet you don't even know where the term dago comes from? Well here's your lesson for today. Because the wogs could not speak English in the very early days of arrival, they were the brunt of many a joke. And that's ok, it's normal. But wogs are more intelligent than the equal number of skips, because it did not take them long to learn English. Some of the very first words they learned were simple words being used daily. Because their contract was to work from sunrise to sunset, when the sun went down, they would say 'day go boss'.

Altrav: I'll bet you don't even know where the term dago comes from?

I thought it came from Italian Pushbikes in North Queensland. They used to replace the tyres on their pushbikes with worn out sandshoes.

& Da go, wop!wop!wop! wop!

Jayb, good one. If your cracking funny that's ok, good one, but being a wog I've heard em' all before. Some aren't bad. If your trying to piss me off, you've failed. But anyway taking your question seriously, if your a mate of Toni L, and you side with him, then you're also a dick. If not and you are a lone wolf on this line, your ok, then in answer to your question about the term dago; I'm sorry Jayb, you get no points, because you must have been writing your post at the same time I was responding to Toni's. So if you want the correct answer to your question about dago's, just read my previous post responding to Toni.

Altrav: Jayb, good one. If your cracking funny that's ok, good one.

Hell mate I grew up in the Burdekin, Ayr when the big Italian influx happened in the 50's. I could hold a reasonable conversation in Italian buy the time I was 14, not perfect, but reasonable. Lost most of it now though it will come back some time whi'm least expecting it. Like when someone asks me a question & I didn't catch it, "Causa?"

All good Catholics. ;-) I learnt to play Bocce, drink a bowl of watered wine with those hard star shaped buns for lunch. Make Tomato Purea. Yes we made fun of them & they of us. That's why we all got on so well. We caught Boney Brim while the creeks flooded, ground them up & made Fish Cakes. Caught sparrows & ground them up too. Killed the pigs & made Salami & bottled the Vino. Drank Grappa. Generally had lots of fun growing up.

So there ya go mate. Not every one who says something is having a go at you personally. Struth! don't be like them feminists.

Jayb, you've left me a little choked. Your story is a wonderful and enlightening description of what it was like and you have captured it perfectly. It brought back memories I had long forgotten. Everything you said resonated well with me. Your one of the good guys. I think we did pretty well when you consider it wasn't long after the war and we understood so we could empathise with the Aussies. I remember thinking, thank God we were removed from the war early. It's generally not known that the Italian people did not want to go to war because they just didn't. The main reason was that Mussolini was an absolute moron and a bum buddy and a lap dog to pricks like Hitler and anyone who would talk to him. Anyway you've made my, and any other wogs on the forums, day. We had a lot of skippy mates and we would always take the piss, it was what we did, but it was like an act of endearment, not an act of attrition. Good for you Jayb.

Dear ALTRAV,

Oh cry me a river you snowflake. All I did was mimic how you framed your argument using sweeping generalisations and absolutes like;

“We should NEVER accept an abo calling himself or have any attachment or feeling abo, if their is any non-abo blood in their background. How arrogant are these bloody wannabees, so keen are they to gain from calling themselves abo, that they are prepared to dis-regard and malign the many other non-abo ancestors which form part of their bloodline, family tree and history.”

I thought you were just stirring the pot using the term abo so I didn't think you would mind me using wog on this occasion. How wrong I was. Well mate you really shouldn't be dishing it out if you can't take it.

You would have looked a lot better if you had copped it on the chin and returned in kind. Was it the fact that I directed it at you personally? Well let me have another crack at it, hopefully this passes muster.

These bloody wogs are all the same. My accountant says Italians always doing things with cash. They hate paying taxes to contribute to this country. Freeloaders the bloody lot of them. They have been responsible for importing huge crime families into this country and have large stakes in both drugs and prostitution. Who can forget Donald McKay a politician who got too close to exposing they and their activities so was murdered by Italins.

Now dust yourself off and hop back on the horse because there is a lt of fun to be had.

SteeleR, what the hell are you talking about. I've just finished writing that I have always abbreviated names. For example, wogs, dago's, skips,chinks and so on these are words your lot taught us and they were used as a term of endearment. Maybe your lot were using them for abuse and to offend. Anyway I have no idea who you or your accountant associate with but it may come as a surprise to you and your lot, but the cash economy has been around long before us wogs turned up. BTW what the hell do YOU use if not cash? As for the mafia, well there is nothing to say, even we want them dead, so get in line and wait your turn. Now lets get down to whats really crawled up your A&se. I was very clear about the abo's and their privileges. I'll say it again, if your not a pure blood then your NOT AN ABORIGINE. I don't care if you don't agree. I am also annoyed that all the other nationalities that came before you to create who you are today are being shunned by those who are plain and simple Australians, not aborigine, for purely selfish reasons. Before you mouth off about wogs, or anyone else for that matter, you still haven't answered my questions about what you've done to contribute to the building of this country and its infrastructure to the benefit of the Australian people and their ability to provide and prosper. I've described what I/we have done, now it's your turn and we're waiting. Don't bother replying with your slander and abusive attitude until you've answered my questions. Only then will you have earned the right to comment on what happens in this country. You troglodyte! We're waiting.

Dear ALTRAV,

Little better mate but I'm not sure reinforcing my points is in the spirit of competition but thank you anyway.

Okay time for me to riff, baseless stereotypes are good fun and I don't get the opportunity to indulge very often.

Of course wog is a term of endearment. When people were yelling out 'greasy wog' to you across the public school yard they it was an expression of fondness and mateship.

You claim; “The reason I come out fighting is because it WAS morons like you who gave me and other wogs a hard time when we were young.”

The fact that you seem to have been offended by it is all on you. Us true Aussies have always done it and if you were to ever become one you would understand. It is tough love. You see this is a tough country and we knew we wouldn't always be around to see you through so we gave you that name... opps, sorry, channeling a bit of JC there...anyway don't you see it was the hard time you got which toughened you up enough to make a go of it in this country. You should be thankful instead of resentful.

Cont...

Cont...

As to claiming you lot were here to 'build this country' what a lot of BS. You lot were here for purely 'selfish reasons', to make a pile of cash off us and then probably leave, just like you have indicated. One of the great problems the governments like Greece, Spain and Italy face is the aversion of its citizens to paying tax to contribute to their countries. My accountant's experience says you lot have bought that reluctance with you. It is the underhanded cash dealings that allow mafia families to flourish and kill our honest politicians. Why shouldn't we deem you more trouble than you are worth? Ungrateful for the opportunities Australia and Australians have given you, abusing our freedoms to call us morons and telling us our country is a shithole.

Wogs, really parasites of the worst kind. Hardly one of them a true Australian. There is a good case to be made that we deny them citizenship, all they are likely to do is rort the system without paying their fair share.

There we go mate, did I keep it general enough for you? What is your next delivery, a bouncer or a spinner? Opps, sorry, you might not understand the lingo, will it be a header or a kick?

Steelie: My accountant says Italians always doing things with cash.

Further to my reply to Altrav. Yes Church on Sunday morning was when business was done. Hiring, firing, getting paid, buying & selling & most other things were done then.

Most of the real fighting was done between the North Italians & Sicilians. No love lost there.

It's taking less and less time for a topic brought up in good faith by someone to be turned into a personal slanging match between ratbags.

Further to the above, Big Nana has summed up the situation sensibly and without resort to the abuse in 80% of the posts. I can envisage a time when nobody will bother putting up anything for discussion because of the childish nastiness of the idiots using OLO to get the dirty water off their chests. The main offenders are SteeleRedux and Toni Lavis, the chief stirrers and nasties who need to get a life or move over to Facebook or Twitter,which seem to cater for people like them.

SteeleR, we're all still waiting.

Dear ALTRAV,

What the hell is this?

“Don't bother replying with your slander and abusive attitude until you've answered my questions.”

I have been perfectly faithful in reproducing your own style back at you and if you feel this was abusive then you had better take a good hard look at yourself son.

By the way I hardly think there are any others waiting except for yourself.

What would you like? I can tell you of the number of businesses I have owned or the companies I have been a director of. Sure they gave others employment and at least one contributed to industry. My main business involved structural installations on hundreds of both residential and commercial buildings. So I could make the claim I have helped build the housing stock of Australia if I wanted to but that would be just idiotic. I was in it for the buck not with some falsely claimed interest in building this nation up as you are so dishonestly attempting to do. Health reasons saw me get out of nearly all of them.

The stuff I am most proud of is what I have managed to achieve outside of scrambling for profit. Done on my own time without the expectation of any remuneration or benefit. Something you probably wouldn't know much about.

And I don't get why you think I am picking on Italians. I could have just as easily constructed the same type of argument for any minority as you did. All I was doing was shining a light on how shallow and inane you were being. The very fact that you got your knickers in a knot speaks volumes.

Using words like abos because you were called a wog is immature and petulant. I have called you child like before and the description still holds.

Now we were having such fun before you sooked up so perhaps we can get back to that.

Hi Steele,

When I was working in factories in the sixties and seventies, looking for the revolutionary working class, the best workers - often the only workers below foreman-level - were the Greeks and Italians. Yugoslavs as well. They could always work me under the table, no trouble. Occasionally there might be another Anglo-Aust worker, but he was usually the union man, doing the company's bidding on things like weight limits. In other words, a total bludger and turd. The tradespeople were usually Aussies, though. Usually the foremen, supervisors and managers were Anglo-Aussies or Pommies, people who had successfully got away from hard work.

I look back on my Greek and Italian work-mates with great affection. I can't remember the names of other Aussies.

Joe

SteelR, I'm impressed. Can you give us the names of some of these companies you've owned and been a director of? We may have dealt with them so it would go a long way to putting you in a particular bracket in the greater scheme of things. It will certainly go a long way to understanding you a lot better or where your coming from on certain issues.

Dear ALTRAV,

Give away personal details on an open forum with more than its fair share of nutters isn't something any half way intelligent individual would do.

Perhaps you would like to share your details as you are one who is making the claim that you and your father have helped build this country with your contributions. I always took them with a grain of salt anyway but if you want to lay them out I'm not stopping you.

Dear Loudmouth,

I'm not sure where you think I might have said they were not hard working, I've employed quite a number of nationalities and there were good and bad, both workers and slackers, in all of them. Probably my most productive were Vietnamese but they too could be hit or miss. It all comes down to the individual.

Here is the difference, ALTRAV is making sweeping statements about minority groups and Australians in general. All I have done is created a narrative using his own posts as a template and he has kicked up. I don't have an issue with Italians or any other nationality, this is all to make a point which I think was done quite well. The rest is all down to him.

SteelR, finally we get to the bottom of your angst. So you obviously don't agree with my comments on how the abo's are given rights and privileges that the other Australians don't get. I will exclude myself from being an Australian and therefore not a beneficiary of this particular topic as I am simply an observer, apparently. This topic is about abo's and self governance, plain and simple. I am in the negative because I feel, even as an observer, that the abo's are getting far too much money and assistance but they are not doing their bit. So I am not surprised if the majority of Australians are fed up and are saying enough is enough. That's what I was saying from the start, as an observer of course, as I'm not an Aussie and therefore have no right to comment on such matters, obviously. (your words)

Dear ALTRAV,

Before commenting on any matter you need to get the
facts right and not fall for myths. The following
link explains:

http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/busting-myths-about-aboriginal-culture-in-australia

Myth 19 and Myth 20 - explain further.

Foxy, am I to believe you disagree with most or all of these points on your link? Why? They may not ALL be completely true because the list is presented as an overview and a generalisation, implying they are ALL of this elk. We both know this is simply not true. My submission is aimed at the ones abusing the system. I don't know WHO they are but I know they exist, and so I generalise to make the point. Remember Foxy it wasn't me who first spoke up against the wannabees, it was an aboriginal Elder. So before anyone starts unpacking their pitchforks and fire starters, you'd better round up the Elders first.
Foxy, I'm not the bad guy here. I will always speak up where I see an injustice being perpetrated. I have been an active submitter to 'The Ombudsman' if I believed there was injustice or a law or an officer which compromised people. So it is that I am not against any particular race or nationality only those who abuse the system. Whoever they are.

Dear ALTRAV,

Glad to hear that you're not against any particular
race or group of people. However we need to be
mindful of the many terms which may give a
different impression. For example referring to Australian
Indigenous people as "Abos" or to African Americans as
"ni**ers" or Italians as "Dagos" or migrants as "wogs"
and so on. These outmoded words are no longer acceptable
to most people.

Foxy: These outmoded words are no longer acceptable to most people.

No only to the Politically Correct, Lefties who want to stuff everything by pretending to be offended by anything. They spend their time thinking up new things to be offended by. Even some words that we had to use because the word they replaced was offensive are now offensive because some PCDH thinks "Someone MIGHT be offended." Grrrr....

Ah yes, well even blind Freddy would be happy to see that !
That old saying is now no PC !

Foxy "Wog" is not necessarily disrespectful.

Unfortunately when I went cruising I packed most of my favourite things into 2 ports. Fortunately only one would fit in the space I allocated, so was left with my folks. The other sailed over 40,000 nautical miles, survived 4 cyclones, & some pretty rough crossings in the next 6 years, before I opened it again.

All that damp had turned those treasured possessions into a solid block of paper mache. In that block was one of my favourite books, "Horrie the Wog Dog", by Roland Perry. You probably know it.

It is the story of Ozzie outfit sent to Greece after the desert campaign, on a fools errand gesture. With stuff all heavy equipment & no air support they could do nothing but stage a fighting withdrawal from north to south of Greece.

Horrie was an Egyptian terrier, hence the "WOG" they took with them. His ability to hear the stuka dive bombers long before human ears, & thus give more time for the troops to take cover saved many lives.

I gained the impression that those Ozzies considered the Greeks to be wogs, but this was not meant in any derogatory way. In fact a real affection for the Greeks comes through in the book.

I have seen some trying to rename the book Horrie the War Dog. This totally disgusting politically correct garbage is what we have to wipe out, not use of words like wog.

Foxy, it is wonderful to hear from like minded people. I applaud and congratulate commentors like, Jayb,Bazz and Hasbeen, just to name three. I have preached for years about the removal and destruction of Political Correctness. It is a disease which if left unchecked will eventually be the cause of our downfall. Foxy, millions of people of my age grew up with these words. They are a double edged sword. If you liked the person it was one of the most endearing terms you could bestow upon an old friend, or a new one. Sure as new migrant it was difficult. The war was too fresh in everyones mind. We understood and the more mature of us just took it on the chin. The problem was in some cases the Skips saw this submission as a sign of weakness and fear, which only helped to fuel the Aussies rants and verbal attacks. Until they decided to get physical. I am sorry to say the altercations I witnessed never ended well for the local boys, and of course this left them angry and embarrassed for having been beaten in their own back yard, so to speak. The anger and emotion in SteeleR's comments are exactly what we experienced because we came out on top. My own father, may he rest in piece, experienced the vitriol at the hands of a couple of work colleagues. Whilst working on preparing and laying new roads in the North of our state in temperatures you could cook an egg on your shovel. Every night the skips would crack open the beer and get pissed.As was the norm they would start picking on my father and the other wogs. The next morning the foreman told my father he was going to knock his lights out and he kept on pushing dad to fight him. Dad kept on refusing, till the foreman took a swing at him. It didn't connect so dad instead of fighting back he flicked him around and held him in some kind of a hold and proceeded to calmly talk him down.

I guess it all depends on what each of us have
experienced. Our language reflects our view
of the world. And it needs to be looked at in
context and how it is used.

Foxy, quite right. Remember the double edged sword. I can call someone a wog bastard as a friend or use the exact same words to offend. My use of abbreviated names is normal for me like saying pollies or govt. Which you will find I have done throughout my posts. If I want to abuse someone it will usually be as a response to their abuse at me. I believe that is a reasonable expectation. If I do not respond in this way it may be seen as a sign of defeat, and so I risk losing cred. If you lose cred on a forum you may as well pack up and go home. Anything you say after that is moot. You may as well not have written anything. I cannot say it enough; Political Correctness is WRONG. I will never subscribe to it and I urge everyone to take stock and start leaning this way. To do otherwise is to lie or mis-represent the truth for the sake of not hurting someones feelings? WTF has feelings got to do with anything? It certainly has NO place in a discussion or debate.

I love how threads meander away from their original topic, you learn so much.

Anyway, BTT: given that Indigenous people have a multitude of voices, in public life [e.g. 'Fxxk Australia ! Burn the fxxking place to the ground !'] and in politics [i.e. with Indigenous members in almost all Parliaments and ministers too], with five thousand Indigenous organisations in every nook and cranny of the country, with journals and newspapers, with major representative organisations like the Indigenous First Peoples' Revolutionary Representative People's Primary Organ of Deliberation or whatever, and the Prime Minister's own Advisory Council, one would think that the noise from all those 'voices' would be pretty deafening.

And that nobody in Australia is such a mug that they can't see that some 'independent' body scrutinising all proposed legislation will not act with sort of de facto veto powers. Ah yes, you're right, there's Foxy, so good-natured, trusting, but she's only one person, a beautiful person but only one nevertheless. There's still another twenty four million or so.

Meanwhile, FAS-affected children keep getting born, women keep getting beat up, children abused and/or neglected, people dying forty and fifty years too young. Given Indigenous self-determination has been around for some time, what remedy do Indigenous 'leaders' have for all of these grievous problems ? Which of those particular problems might be resolved in as little as, say, fifty years, by the setting-up of such a body as the one proposed by Noel Pearson, that can't be resolved even now if people got down to it ?

Of course, with so many voices already, the problem isn't being heard, but who to listen to: if five thousand organisations etc., etc., can't speak in a coherent, vaguely unified, way, what hope is there with some glorified national vehicle which every man/woman and his/her dog would want to clamber onto ?

Why not say 'bugger all that', and get down to resolve the real, burning, issues ?

Joe

Dear Joe,

So what is the answer then? How do we solve all these
massive and complicated problems. We're told time and
time again that all the resources that have been allocated
in the past never reach the places where they are needed.
We can't just ignore things can we?

Joe, the outstanding example of failure in self determination is the lack of progress in health issues despite the existence of government funded aboriginal health services for more than 30 years.
Billions of dollars have been spent training health workers, building clinics, providing health services right around the country, both city and bush.
This service is so full of rorts, nepotism, poorly trained or unqualified workers it's actually dangerous at times.
Nurses in remote clinics will tell you in private of the medical disasters caused by inept decisions made by underqualified health workers. But not publically. Nothing is said publically.
Whilst I lived in the NT I wrote twice to the Minister for Health complaining of non professional behaviour and dangerous practises within the huge aboriginal health service in Darwin but each time I was pushed over to the board of management of the service and they just waffled on, making excuses, as these organisations do.
The most telling clue in the expertise of these clinics is the fact that the middle class indigenous people don't use them, they go to private gps when they or their children are sick.

Loudmouth, I'm not sure where to begin. I think the first thing is take the pollies and their mates out of the equation as all they are doing is skimming money out the back door for them and their mates. Secondly do not let them self manage. They have proven to be as dishonest as the pollies. I maintain they have more than enough hand outs and assistance. The situation is that bad that the rest of the population is being compromised. The fault does not lie with the non-indigenous Australians. We have done more than we should. I'm sick and tired of minorities whinging and whining till they get their way. I know, let's create a minority group for, who cares, and maybe we'll get handouts and all kinds of assistance. I'd like to know why everyone thinks they are in need of all this assistance. They have two arms, two legs just like everyone else, so they can stand in line just like everyone else. The do-gooders and the like need to get their heads out of their ar$e and see the true world not this fantasy they have created in their own mind. We're way past the 'enough is enough' stage. The thinking, mature Australians with common sense and the ability to reason, want this con job to stop. I'll say it again, they are Australians, just like the other 24 million and do not deserve any special privileges over the rest of Australians.

Foxy, you ask, 'we can't just ignore things, can we? OK take a deep breath and say, 'yes we can'. Only by letting them fend for themselves will we see their true determination. Right now this farcical we have witnessed, all in the name of, assistance, is nothing more than another way for the pollies and their mates to rip off millions that were never intended for the abo's in the first place, so don't kid yourselves. If you believed the govt tripe then you are part of the problem. No the answer is to pull the baby off the teet. I think at the age of ten or more they are well over the age of suckling off mother Australia.

I caught a bit of an interview with Noel Pearson a few days ago where I'm sure he asserted remote communities exist because aborigines were forced out of towns. Can anybody link me to that interview (with?).

If he's right then why can't we entice aborigines from dysfunctional communities back into towns where they can properly join the 21st century?

Lucerface: If he's right then why can't we entice aborigines from dysfunctional communities back into towns where they can properly join the 21st century?

Bad idea. When I was a kid in the 50's my Uncle had a Property in Ayr & there was a small Aboriginal family group living on his property. My uncle considered it their property. Only family knew of them. Sometime we would catch a glimpse of them way in the distance. Living as naked nature intended.

One day my uncle came across a young boy with a broken leg on the road in Peggys Bog. He took him to the Ayr District Hospital to get him treated. The Aboriginal Services, such as they were in those days, turned up & demanded to know where he came from. My Uncle refused & refused to let them on his property. When the kid was fixed my uncle took him aback to the road & left him. He came back in 15 minutes & the lad was gone but there were some crabs left.

I don't know what ever happened to them. they probably died out. It was clear though, they didn't want anything to do with civilization. & the same with some of these remote communities. Do you remember the last of the tribe around Alice Springs. The found an old couple in the desert & brought them into the Alice. They escaped & went back bush.

Regarding the Aboriginal Organizations All run by educated Aboriginal Academics who are living in luxury of the Government Grants. if they actually do something, other than whinge, they might lose their funding. That's why nothing gets done. When the money goes missing the Organization is closed down & another one started, only the same people are running the new one. they just swap Committee Positions.

Do you know who I'm talking about around Townsville Big Nana?

Dear Foxy,

"We can't just ignore things can we?" God no, these are our fellow-Australians, our own people, so how can we tolerate far shorter, sicker, more empty lives for some of us and not others ? Of course, pathways have to be developed to overcome these problems, but first and foremost, it's up to Indigenous people on-site themselves - surely that's what self-determination means ? Sure, with plenty of advice, etc., but they have to be the doers, the makers, of their own destinies. Anything else is paternalism, surely ?

Mind you, that improper thought has flitted across my mind ......

Hi Big Nana,

Yeah, the Indigenous middle-class. Conversely, I've cousins-in-law who've thought the opposite, that because they were Aboriginal, they had to go to the Aboriginal Medical Service even when it re-located across town. Maybe that's the effect of separate services: that people have sort of taken it for granted that they shouldn't go to public GPs, they have to go to 'their own'. And so racism is perpetuated in the people themselves. 'Their own', indeed. No, separate services should be gradually scrapped and that 'battle' for equal services - if there is even such a battle required, which I don't believe - should be fought, not avoided.

JayB,

Why Townsville ? Could be anywhere, mate, absolutely anywhere ;)

Joe

JayB I’m afraid all my experience is in the NT and Kimberley but I’m sure the same practises occur all over the country.
Quite frankly, if the aboriginal health services can’t show that their efforts are improving aboriginal health then they should be defunded.
As it is all their mistakes end up in the hospital anyway.

Thanks, Big Nana, I'll always take your advice on these sorts of issues :)

Love,

Joe

Dear ALTRAV,

Sorry mate but that is a crock.

Normally when I hear people say they don't want a bar of political correctness they are really saying is they want to be impolite at best and downright offensive and racist at worst and not be called out on it. But god forbid you do the same to them because they get all sooky, just as you did.

Mate all I was doing was 'calling it as I see it' and 'speaking my mind' and not 'bowing down to the PC crowd' and you got your knickers in one hell of a knot. Why do you think that was?

It really seems you can dish it out but not take it and that is a sign of a coward.

What do you think would happen if you met an Adam Goodes or a Buddy Franklin or a Johnathon Thurston down a lonely street and called them 'abo' to their face?

SteeleR, I expect they would say Hi wog, in reply and we would just keep walking. Only someone with malintent would think in harmful terms. Stop fabricating these accusations. As for PC, I have always advocated the destruction of PC and anyone promoting it. And yes it does mean I can say whatever I want without concern about who I offend. If you want to offend me you will have to get in line. If what I say offends you, you have to ask yourself, why? I write with logic, reason and common sense. So why would anyone be offended. Pick fault based on my arguments not your opinions. If my comments are factually incorrect, please correct me, I will appreciate it and thank you for it. But just babble on in some childish rant with no direction or purpose and you will be considered an angry little man. Remember the saying, 'say nothing and be thought a fool, rather than speak and have it confirmed'.

//I write with logic, reason and common sense.//

XD

//So why would anyone be offended.//

Because of the racism, amongst other things. But in this case it's the racism.

//If my comments are factually incorrect, please correct me, I will appreciate it and thank you for it.//

I find that difficult to believe, since you've never done so previously. When people correct your 'facts' you get stroppy and dig your heels in, because you haven't really worked out the difference between facts, opinions and beliefs.

//But just babble on in some childish rant with no direction or purpose and you will be considered an angry little man.//

Indeed.

Alt Rav,

"Remember the saying, 'say nothing and be thought a fool, rather than speak and have it confirmed'."

Indeed.

ToniL,So when I make a comment it's offensive and when you respond with abuse and vitriol it's not. The difference is I am making a general or broad statement not aimed at any one individual. You, on the other hand are attacking an individual not making a broad or general statement. Loudmouth, I said it first, this isn't 1st year primary school. I'm not sure where you stand. I'd rather you clarified your position as I can't tell if your being sarcastic or not. I don't get out much you see so I am not familiar with a lot of this new age speak.

Dear ALTRAV,

You wrote;

“I expect they would say Hi wog, in reply and we would just keep walking. Only someone with malintent would think in harmful terms.”

What a crock and you know it. You would end up flat on your arse crying that you were just exercising your right to offend and pleading not to be slapped again. By your take on things Muhummed Ali should have copped it on the chin when Bert Newtown called him a boy and just let it slide? If you were in Bert's position I'm sure you would have repeated it just so Ali was sure of what you said.

But you see here is the crux mate. You say “So why would anyone be offended.” but you got very hissy when I put this back on you? Why? Just like you do can't the claim 'I was just telling it like it is with wogs' absolve me of the charge of being abusive or offensive? Can't I just say there was no malintent in my words?

SteeleR, Having followed your posts and comments there-in it has now become obvious that you may have anger management issues. That being the case I cannot in all conscience interact with you any more. I don't seem to be getting anywhere so I think it best if we just get on with our lives. I'll keep on being bigoted,racist, homophobic, sexist, anti-political correctness, prejudiced and all the other socially un-acceptable characteristics of a modern man.(AKA a neuter). And you can look for another commentor to pick a fight with. This way we each achieve what we want, and don't annoy the other commentors by following you off topic all the time.

Loudmouth: Why Townsville ? Could be anywhere, mate, absolutely anywhere ;)

Yes you are right & I have alluded as such. What has happened in Townsville is what I know about, indeed all of Townsville knows about those two ladies (sic) anyway.

Big Nana: the aboriginal health services

In Townsville it works quite well. It's the other agencies that don't. I had a friend who was their Doctor. One of Australia's foremost Forensic Doctors. EX Remission Doctor from Blighty who was sent to Burma before WW2, was brought to Australia (Mackay) where he set up shop & worked for 10 years before someone found out that he wasn't qualified in Australia. He did, & went on to write the Doctors Examinations in Queensland. A very strange person, sometimes he would turn up for work with his trousers on inside out or a sandshoe on one foot & a thong on the other. But Over all Dr. Michael was a good Doctor. He did the Chamberlin Forensic Pathology.

Steelie: if you met an Adam Goodes or a Buddy Franklin or a Johnathon Thurston down a lonely street and called them 'abo' to their face?

Well Goodes would go off, Franklin I don't know, but Thurston would be OK provided it was not in a sarcastic vein. There-in lies the difference though. Ay. The same would go for Wog, Eytie, Pom, Spick Ranga, Blondie, Boof, etc.

Dear ALTRAV,

Do you know what projection is my friend because you are a classic case.

Anger issues?

What do you call this?

“You are a typically ignorant, arrogant, troglodyte with nothing to say or contribute of any kind. You quote the poofter vote as if it is something to be proud of. You moron, have you looked outside your own backyard lately to what these fu(&wits are doing to society?”

You had promised to disengage with me before yet jumped back in with some other angry rant.

Now you want to “keep on being bigoted,racist, homophobic, sexist, anti-political correctness, prejudiced and all the other socially un-acceptable characteristics of a modern man.” without me challenging you on it. Well good luck with that. However seeing you have failed to challenge a single argument I have put to you I think silence on your behalf would be one of the only smart moves you have made on this forum.

Here is a hint though, on a topic on Aboriginals like this you might just want to give some constructive input rather than just airing your racism. We might just start to listen for a change.

SteeleR, I tell you what, I won't respond as I promised. What I will ask you to do is go back and look at the other commentors and see that I am not alone in my views on this topic. Are you going to berate them too?

The locals in many parts of Papua refer to all whites as dim dims.

Perhaps they have met Steely.

Hasbeen, perhaps, perhaps.

Dear ALTRAV,

There are some here are that toxic I do not even read their posts. They may well have been as bad as you though experience says they were possibly worse. I really wouldn't know or care.

I've chosen to ignore them just as you are about to do to me and that is all to the good. That is the beauty of online interactions.

I will admit to reading runner's posts though. They are so lightweight and bitchy that they are a guilty pleasure.

Yeh. Anyway, BTT: a referendum on a separate chamber of parliament, a voice without any veto powers.

Currently, in almost all State (and of course Federal) parliaments, there are Indigenous members, sometimes ministers. In WA, the treasurer is Indigenous, as is his uncle (also a minister) in the Federal parliament. Last I heard, they all had voices. Of course, one obligation of an MP is that you have to keep up with any proposed legislation. Presumably they all can do that. So ....... ?

Of course, proposed legislation may be extremely abstruse, requiring specialist knowledge. So obviously, any separate overseeing body would need experts, especially lawyers, perhaps many hundreds. While I'm sure that most lawyers are already busy, and would be most reluctant to give up their current duties in order to help out such an overseeing body with their specialist expertise, there may be some who can dedicate themselves to perusing any such proposed legislation.

So clearly, any such separate body would, regardless of its lack of veto power, require adequate staffing, bureaucrats, lawyers, experts, support staff, etc, as well as adequate consultation with 'communities' and the five thousand Indigenous organisations, all out there but without a voice. Thank goodness such a body won't have any veto power, since that would increase their already onerous duties.

Joe

Loudmouth: any such separate body would, regardless of its lack of veto power, require adequate staffing, bureaucrats, lawyers, experts, support staff, etc, as well as adequate consultation with 'communities' and the five thousand Indigenous organisations, all out there

There goes all the money. & The People it's all supposed to help. nyet! Naadda! The more things change the more they stay the same.

Hi Jayb,

" ..... all out there but without a voice."

Sorry, I was being unpardonably facetious. I wonder if there is a single legislative proposal which may NOT have any implications for some aspect of Indigenous rights, society, culture or powers.

It was pointed out recently that no federal government has had control of both houses of parliament for more than twenty years. Currently, the federal government has a hell of a job getting anything through the Senate at all, with a gaggle of cross-benchers horse-trading and obstructing. And that's only two chambers. Hell, they may have trouble in the next few weeks, or at the next election, whichever comes first, with only one.

So, while Shorten and Labor may play to the peanut gallery, if they are elected and pulled on a successful referendum for a third chamber (one, of course, without a veto), they would have to deal with two houses over which they would have no control (one with a veto over any business, the other - of course - without a veto of any sort).

Yes, Labour and Shorten may be utterly opportunist, but they may need to be careful what they bring into being. A third chamber will undoubtedly be an unruly child.

Joe

Still, no one has an answer to my proposition that the schemes are
fundamentally flawed because they make no definition as to who is an
aborigine and how to handle the declining percentage who are aborigines.
If they have to be full bloods then the organisation may have a very
long lifetime but the numbers will decline to very small numbers.
The numbers could be as low as less than 100. Such numbers would tend
to inbreeding and disaster.

However you look at "What is an Aborigine" it will have to be defined
or it will not be possible to count the votes.
If you cannot answer this question the discussion is pointless.

So I ask Who is an Aborigine ?

//So I ask Who is an Aborigine ?//

An Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander is a person of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander descent who identifies as an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander and is accepted as such by the community in which he (she) lives.

Hi Bazz,

Perhaps fifty thousand 'full-bloods' across the Centre and North.

If Indigenous 'southerners' had to provide some sort of Family Tree, or genealogy, which could be checked, you might be surprised how many there are in the 'south' too. Certainly, there would be very many, too pale according to your colour card, who would honestly and sincerely see themselves (and their mother, brothers, sisters, cousins, uncles, aunties, grandparents) as Indigenous, and nothing else. And so would neighbouring Whites.

A couple of generations ago, they wouldn't have known any relations except other Indigenous ones like themselves - and they wouldn't have been regarded as White by Whitefellas. So how could they be anything else by Indigenous ? That may be changing quickly, from one generation to the next, with very high urban rates of inter-marriage these days, but I suspect that many of the children of those marriages would not be fazed one way or the other: they would simply acknowledge that they 'have Indigenous ancestry', and not much more than that. Times are a-changin'.

Joe

Tony;
Doesn't that leave it wide open for abuse !
A real tick the box solution.
How would you resolve a dispute where one says "He is not an aborigine !"
and he says "I am !".

Would a person 50% aborigine be an aborigine ?
What percentage would you pick ?
When you have to apply legal decisions think what arguments could
arise in court. An argument could be that a law is not valid because
Jackie Brown never was an aborigine.
It is like the dual citizenship argument.

It just will never work.

//When you have to apply legal decisions think what arguments could
arise in court.//

That was the legal definition which applies in court, Bazz. It's the definition accepted by all Commonwealth agencies. Has been for some time now.

No doubt you think you have a better definition... but I'm not sure anyone cares.

Hello Joe, I suspect you understand the problem I have put up to be
an Aunt Sally.
You can't have a, well I feel aborigine, as a measure for voting on
legislation. It has to be one or the other for the sake of the law.
Otherwise everyone will be able to challenge the law.

Constitutions are long term documents, and are there for hundreds of years.

Yes Tony and has been disputed by many and is wide open to abuse.
Backhanders etc.
On all those Centrelink etc etc forms how many ticks have been checked ?

Racial laws are very very dodgey laws.

Hi Bazz,

On the one hand, people can call themselves whatever the hell they like. On the other hand (1), as Toni points out, there is a very loose definition involving self-definition, but also community acceptance (very often corrupted by organisations seeking numbers for funding). A Family Tree would sort much of that out.

And on the other hand (2), as you allude to, who would be eligible to vote in supposedly an all-Indigenous plebiscite or referendum or whatever ? Again, having to submit a Family Tree before being registered would sort much of that out: it would be necessary for an applicant to prove to the satisfaction of genealogical staff before he/she was added to a Register.

And on the other hand (3), if someone was seeking financial or other benefits on the basis of being Indigenous, then again, a Family Tree would identify who were the BS-artists and who was genuine. But in all of these cases, rigorous checks of genealogies would have to be done by (somehow) disinterested/unbiased staff.

All of this would be a pretty difficult and fraught process, but most Indigenous groups would be able to put together Family Trees, and weed out the phonies. My late wife, for example, could have traced her Indigenous ancestry through half a dozen families back to ancestors born around 1850 without any trouble. She was always quite happy and proud to do that, and to work out who she was related to - it would have been nearly impossible for a phony to get past her. And she knew plenty of those bastards, Whitefellas taking Indigenous positions and sometimes working their way high up career pathways, especially in government organisations. And quite a few are still there.

Joe

Thanks for the comment Joe.
Even where most of the tree seems solid there are sometimes surprises
as I found when researching my family tree. Some relatives that
everyone thought were cousins turned out not to be due to a 60 year
shacking up together. They married in 1912 only a few years before
the wife died.

Remember we are talking here about whether legislation is changeable.
Without DNA testing it would generate a lawyer's picnic.

Joe,
Whoops Changeable should be challengeable.

Loudmouth, Bazz, I am heartened to hear you speak of ancestry and family trees. Loudmouth, I love your wife she sounds like one smart person seeing through the 'bastards' and wannabee 'white fellas'. To hear the views of you and your wife goes a long way for the original inhabitants of this country becoming accepted as an honest and true blue Aussie. Albeit with some indigenous blood somewhere in the past. It is this kind of honesty, courage and humbling that will see the indigenous people begin to be accepted and not vilified. It would be the first true and very difficult step to self regulation.