To Yuyutsu.

You make a good point.
Perceptions are not reality per se but representations of reality.
And they can mislead us.
But without perceptions what are we left with?

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

You seem to have changed the subject.

This is expected when the going gets tough.

You write about me and my thoughts, about atheists, God and faith, criticism and conclusions. But what has gone missing, is YOU.

We cannot settle the question of God using intellectual arguments.
I tell you that there is nothing but God, hence you too are God - experience who you truly are and you have found God as well. However, the road is arduous and scary. I say that it is worthwhile despite all hardships, but then why would you believe me?

---

Dear Ashbo,

Perceptions always mislead us and distort reality because they are indirect, interposing some vehicle (senses/mind/words/memory) between us, the subject, and the objects of our perception.

Apart from distortions due to the physical limitations of our senses and mind, the biggest distortion is that perceptions produce an illusion as if we, the subject, are separated from the objects of perception, thus producing the game of diversity.

Without perception, once we become tired of playing diversity, we are left with the direct experience of reality itself. No longer a thought about reality, nor a sensation of reality, but reality itself.

Dear Yuyutsu.

My intent was not to change the subject. But I used an example in my life to convay a point of challenging our own conclusions. You and I both believe in God, but we do not believe in God the same way. No, it could even be reasoned we don't believe in the same God. So I say it again for clarification. Seek out your own conclusions and test them on what is reliable.

That is part of this discussion as a whole. Knowing what is real and what isn't. You've said that God can't be argued by intellectual arguments. That I fully agree with you. There are too many that settle their view by reason alone, but do not test that reason in the real world. So reason untested is not an authority on reality. Reason tested and shown true shows the merrit of that logic and those reasoning perspectives.

(Continued)

(Continued)

So here is my challenge for your intelectual point.

[I tell you that there is nothing but God, hence you too are God - experience who you truly are and you have found God as well.]

I am on a practical level all the things I described myself as earlier. Many of those things aren't who "I truely am" when you consider who I was 10 or 20 years ago. In years to come there can be more to add to that list that weren't there before and aren't who I truely am now. On a practical level we change, we all do. There is no truely you aspect in this that is connected to God. But there are unique aspects to us that usually are unchanging. Some good, some not as good. But they are not us being God either.

One other element I left out of that list were my failures. Both my sins, my weaknesses, and over all the things that did not pan out well. I see these elements in life as a witness against self focused philosophies. Including your own view that we are all God. The truth is we need God. Not that we are Him.

There is your challenge. It won't go away by ignoring it. But I'm sorry to push it on you like this. It is not an easy path to be challenged.

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

So long and to the extent that you consider yourself as a man, then of course you need God!

Man is sinful, man needs help, man needs undeserved divine grace, every bit of it.

How can man be God when man is sinful and God isn't?

However, YOU are not a man, that's only an illusion. Your human mind and body sin, granted, they cannot help it, but you are not that body or that mind - they are only temporarily yours, then they disappear the way they came. Even your character eventually disappears: your virtues and your vices, all will be washed away in time - but you remain, you always were, you always will be.

The only "selfishness" to be shunned, is when serving one's false and limited perception of self, such as one's body/mind, to the exclusion of other bodies/minds. There is nothing wrong however with "selfishness" when the self you serve is your real self which includes all "others" as well - God.

To Yuyutzu.
Your latest reply to me suggests we are, to some degree at least, in agreement. I tend towards the idea of what might be called Indirect Realism. Our perception of reality is filtered.
Do you accept the idea that, in certain circumstances, our intellect can be aware of the inherent distortion in the perception of a particular reality presented to us and can, in a sense, compensate?
May I ask you to expand on the term you used: "the game of diversity"?
I am not sure of what you are driving at there.
And do you hold that reality can in some way be contemplated without sensory perception?