Shockadelic,

If we can agree on this much, then we’re probably wasting each other’s time now:

<<So yes, genes and social experiences can cause all kinds of fuzzy outcomes.>>

This is what I have always maintained wherever beliefs, thoughts, and behaviours were concerned (most recently in a discussion with mhaze (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=19418#345212)), as this is what all the evidence suggests.

My only problem was that you originally portrayed transsexuals as merely delusional, and there is far too much evidence against such an assertion.

<<I note there are NO studies of "Androphilic female-to-male transsexuals". NONE!>>

There are plenty:

http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=female-to-male+transsexuality+causes

<<Why is that AJ, if people are *born* like this, and it's not socially motivated/constructed?>>

I have never claimed that sociological factors don’t play a role. Again, go back and read what I actually said.

It seems to me like you need to start reading what I say a little more carefully.

What does his dress sense have to do with anything?
Also this idea of 'inciting violence' - I'm calling BS.
It's silly people like you who mistake organised provocateurs deliberately intending to cause violence as legitimate protestors.

They do not want conservatives to hear their point of view.
These people deliberately attend these places to cause violence and try to silence the points of view they don't agree with.

This video is priceless.
It was great seeing Milo make her look stupid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7FtjtF4gM0
I'd like to know your exact reasons for thinking Milo was inciting violence here.

I'm not sure what you saw but let me tell you what I saw.

- A stupid know-it-all know-nothing Aussie girl who very foolishly thought she had what it takes to argue social and political issues with Milo Yiannopoulos.
That's like walking into a burning building and not even being aware of it - that's how stupid she was getting up on stage in the first place. Careful, ya might get burned.
Clearly she was inept, had little knowledge of that with which she was supposed to be defending, and Milo made light work of her feeble attempts to challenge him.
Remember she was the one who wanted to get in front of the camera to challenge him.
If she made a fool of herself then it was her own doing.

I think if someone says stupid things, they deserve to be called stupid.
Not only that, if you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes.

"So to put it simply, if someone says something that say for example is overtly, somewhat or very controversial, this can as per the above, "incite violence". How much simpler does that have to be in definition?"

I dunno, but I'm betting you could make it even simpler.
- That's if your argument holds up, so lets put it to the test.

Could you please give an example of something someone might say where you think violence is a justified and reasonable response?

AJ "There are plenty"

Not in the wiki link you provided, which discusses brain function of every other transgender type.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality

"1.4 Brain function
1.4.1 Androphilic male-to-female transsexuals
1.4.2 Gynephilic male-to-female transsexuals
1.4.3 Gynephilic female-to-male transsexuals"

There is no 1.4.4 Androphilic female-to-male transsexuals.

Androphilic female-to-male transsexuals are not mentioned *anywhere* on that page.

Why is that, AJ?

Your other link is about "female-to-male transsexuals" not "Androphilic female-to-male transsexuals", so please specify a study of Androphilic female-to-male transsexuals.
I presume you don't actually know of one.

A person born female, who wants to live and dress as a "gay man" would have little social incentive/motive to transition, as s/he would be accepted by most in the queer community, and even look "butch" in the straight community without raising an eyebrow.
And growing up attracted to men would not have had any stigma, as s/he was seen as a "girl".

It is not "deluded" to be strange or unusual.
It is "deluded" to think you are a *specific* thing (man/woman) when you are do not meet the very definition of that thing.

If I desperately want to be "Chinese" in my heart, I can wear the clothes, learn the language, even have surgery on my face, but I will never be "Chinese" if I wasn't *born* with those genetic characteristics that define "Chinese" people.
Nor did I have the immensely important formative life experience of growing up "Chinese".

And it would be ludicrous to demand everyone else accept my fraudulent/delusional self-identification.

Changing my clothes or mannerisms, or artificially modifying my body, does not make me authentically "Chinese".

It is Aussie culture based on Western values to be able to debate opposing views without violence and to defend the right of the other person to say their views even though we disagree. That is why we have the Westminster system of Government with an opposition posing difference of opinion.

This forum is not a one side debate and all opinion is valid argument, all subjects should be able to be debated respectfully and intelligently. When a person loses an argument they either agree to disagree, or a poor looser turns to violence or abuse to destroy his opposition.

Hi Josephus,

Yes, what I love about OLO is that nobody can punch you in the mouth for having a different opinion. They have to either argue, descend into ad hominems, or bugger off. Spot-on !

AC,

Thanks for that brilliant video clip, I'm passing it around.

Cheers,

Joe