Just a question and I wanted to see what people thought. With all the problems worldwide, which is largely due to racial and ethnic conflict and has roots on religious levels, is Australia due for a large scale of conflict? Seeing as though we are a very multicultural nation, which has those of Aussie, American, Arabic, European and Asian people, is it possible global issues will cause troubles on our own soil?

Congratulations on the first post of the forum since it has been open to everyone, not just beta testers.

I think we are already seeing influences of international conflicts on domestic events - take the current terrorism trials. So I'm not sure what you are asking. Is it whether we will have a civil war anytime in the foreseeable future? I don't think so.

BTW, we're doing a feature on what makes someone an Australian in a month or so, but I can't see why "American, Arabic, European and Asian people" who live here can't be "Aussie".

Umm, very broad but generally how Australia's 'Australianess' or sense of collective identity, is in a constant flux, I consider it doubtful.

The riots in Sydney were a basic wake-up call for all Australians and the more recent Lebanese/Israeli war demonstrations around the Australia appeared to show constraint to protect what our 'multicultural' Australians favour in our 'lucky country'.

We can 'judge' incidents contained within these occurences of 'cultural' support but the bigger picture is that 'free speech' is at work within abidence of this Country's laws. Let's not forget that many 'white' european/Australians have used to their advantage in past European related conflicts, eg Colonialist Wars, then more recently the anti Vietnam movement and now this.

Warm regards to all, Driver1961.

Epithemous YES.. we are already seeing this.

Cronulla was local, but in a sense connected on the Leb Muslim side to the world wide conflict between Islam and 'The West' but not in a major way as most of those young thugs were just that... thugs. Probably don't think much about other places.

Demonstrations.... ah..now thats a different thing. The Palestinians and various Muslim groups are being exploited by the Socialist Left, as can be seen by who the organizers of these rally's are.
The police were so worried about my safety and public order at the demo last week, they said this:

"I do not intend to become a punching back between you and a couple of thousand emotionally disturbed Palestinians who will try to rip you to pieces.. if its easier to arrest you, we will do it"

I was considering bringing an alternative message to their rally, and even playing their game by attempting to hijack it myself. Wisdom saw me through, and I just observed and had a few stimulating convo's with various organizers and promoters, some of whom have written for the Green Left Weekly.

At least now I have a better idea of what can and can't be done.

We are at war withoutselves on an important front...
the Racial and Religious Tolerance Act... is a Nazi document.

I am planning to demonstrate this by standing outside RMIT with a poster saying "Muslims are?" with a large question mark over a panel that must be opened in order to see 'what' they are.
Then, will be listed the following:

1/ Cursed by God

2/ Deluded

3/ Away from the truth.

4/ Perverse.

When any Muslim sees this, they might well consider they have been 'vilified'.. which would be great, so they then sue me, and THEN... I will just show that all I did was substitute "Muslim" for what the Quran says about 'Christians'. Hence, they are judging their own holy book.

Continued....

The "Point" of course, is to show just how hypocritical and misguided is such a law. Specially when it is misused, and is ensures nothing more than selective discrimination against Christians for speaking their mind.

I don't care in the slightest about being described in negative ways by other religions or lefties, because I value the freedom to speak MY mind and heart on important issues. Good for me, good for them.

Christians were charged with 'drinking blood of child sacrifices and eating babies' during Roman times,

I'm also considering another approach. Stand with a Cross on my T-Shirt, but with the more compassionate Biblical attitude that those outside Christ as like lost sheep, and the Good Shepherd is diligently searching for them.

And have a co-worker with a Crescent on his T-Shirt, with the Quranic description of Christians listed (like the previous post) as 'perverse.. etc'

Should make for interesting discussions with passers by. (Like last time I did something along these lines)

The main Battle fronts are:

1/ Multi Culturalism vs "Australian" Identity

2/ Morality and its foundation. National Ethics.

3/ Migration, Resettlement and 'Conditions of Entry'

On the migration, we need to emphasize WE HAVE a culture, and if anyone wishes to come here, they are expected to embrace it, and if they have religious prohibitions about the way we do things....DON'T COME.

Is there a war ? You betta believe it ! Failure to address these issues, will result in Tribalism and ethnic conflict of the worst kind.

Thank you Graham for the message. To make my term clear, is it possible people will split along ethnic lines? The reason this caused a concern for me is that it is known people will naturally rival themselves with others and side themselves with what they understand, this circumstance being racial similarities. We have suburbs within Sydney and Australia that have heavy ethnic populations and this can also be a reason for concern. As you said about the Arabic, Asian American etc who cannot be Aussie, this is not what I meant and apologize for the way I bought this over. They can be Aussie; it would be great for them to be Aussie and maintain their own unique characteristics, which makes this country so great.

Boaz_David, I see you are very passionate on your beliefs and it is people such as yourself that make this country and democracy what it is. We have rights as Westerners in a government that allows us to speak our mind, yet many take no action. I do want to caution you though, that you may be taking Muslim spirituality and the Qur’an the wrong way. (I could be wrong and please correct me if I am). There is content in the Muslim texts that re very traditional and in some cases fundamental to our beliefs today, but the Bible as well, shares its own content that we can see as evil. You did make reference to this, but when we really think about today’s society, writings in Catholic texts are nowhere near as highlighted as Muslim texts. On your last point, do you honestly think that if we did have one culture, it would be beneficial? Although there is ethnic conflict, there are still advantages of having a culturally diverse population. Thank you as well for your message, I look forward to reading your response.

When migrants accept Citizenship, they swear to uphold Australian laws, to be Australian . Obviously many take the oaths intending to not be "Australian" but to carry on using this country as a convenience.
If that is 'cultural diversity' we do not need it.
The whole matter of migration and citizenship now needs investigation and perhaps a complete change of direction.
We now have alleged terrorists who ,if charged, face years in Australian prisons.They will be kept on Australian tax payers expense, their families will be kept ,educated,housed and fed at tax payers expense and their children possibly will grow up with a hatred of those same tax payers .
It would be preferable if those who mean us harm in the breaking of our laws, are not incarcerated but shipped with their entire family,back to the homelands that mentally they have never left.
And we can get on with our lives without that threatened marginalisation.

So how would you ensure that these countries they came from and "that mentally they have never left" take them back? Or should we just take them to the edge of our continental shelf, give them a dinghy and set them adrift to make their own transit arrangements?

grahamy, do you consider we should emulate the ostrich and ,putting our collective heads in the sand, ignore the risks of permitting insane fanatics go about their business?
Appease them in the hope they will not turn rabid on us?
Or do we rid this country of those who hate it and who will try to do us harm because we are different to them?
I would rather my descendants grow up in the freedoms and peace that was our country and that should still be their right.
As it was before multiculture.

Not all terrorists and extremists are those from different countries? People that come to our country accept the laws and if they are staying here than should abide by them. But I do not believe they should have to blend into our culture if that is what you are implying.
Our country is a good country and no-one can say we prefer conflict over peace. Australia is multi-cultural, which is good, but to say they have never mentally left home seems harsh. I know if I lived in another country, I could never, ever, forget where I come from, and what it holds to me.

Mikijo, I'm not an ostrich - neither genetically nor temperamentally - but I'm not into just venting emotions either.

Australian citizens are our problem, not the problem of a country in which they happen to have been born. Not all Australians are equally loyal or supportive of our culture and our values, but that doesn't mean there is an exit shute that we can put them down. Or that it is even desirable or possible to determine who goes and who stays.

It doesn't even mean that there is a set of agreed values we all must share and that these aren't contestable.

Your solution isn't just, isn't practical and isn't adequate.

BOAZ: You go boy! I often disagree with you, and I don't come from the same religious perspective as you (though I do share many of the same issues with Islam). However, I do believe that you have the right to say what you want, regardless of whether people take offence to that.

Maybe you should become a stand up comic. They're exempt aren't they? Even if they're not, what we need more of is people laughing at these clowns. Why is it that everyone considers them off limits when they are incredibly ripe and long overdue for a good pisstake? Any other group in society that took itself that seriously would have been fair game long ago. There's a good Australian cultural value for you: taking the piss out of anyone who takes himself too seriously.

The double standard regarding free speech and how that's applied gets my goat.

I think it's outrageous that the best the police can offer you is to advise you to be sensible and not get involved. Why shouldn't you in this country just because some neanderthal mob might lynch you? I wonder how well a pro-Israel rally would go down by comparison and whether spectators would violently disrupt such a thing and be allowed to get away with it.

Also, regarding the socialist left, I can't help but see them as completely morally bankrupt when (as I've seen) side by side they'll have placards denouncing Bush or the War in Iraq (which is fair enough) but then have banners idolising Lenin, Stalin and Mao (who make the worst of the west look like complete amateurs). Having lived in eastern Europe and knowing a lot about what happened there under communism, it just about made my blood boil seeing such things. However, like you, I probably would have been lynched if I'd given them a serve.

Addressing Epithemeos’ original question….

Yes Australia is in for a large-scale conflict. It will be deemed to be about cultural/racial/ethnic issues but it will really about resource stress.

We all live together in relative harmony while life is good. But with stressed resources, ie – the things that prop up our quality of life / standard of living; not least rising fuel prices, we are going to see civil strife manifest itself. Interminably rising fuel prices will cause the prices of just about everything else to rise along with rising inflation, interest rates and unemployment. You can bet your last red cent that civil strife will rapidly increase. … and that it will be blamed on c/r/e issues.

The same resource issues are bound to see us come under threat from other nations as well, especially as we are perceived to have a small population in a large land and to be resource rich.

A strong defence capability is going to be very important. But most important is the necessity to get right onto a sustainable basis as soon as possible, by way of getting people off their dependence on oil and onto renewable energy sources… and declaring limits to population growth forthwith.

I think you're probably right to an extent, though I'm not sure if it will be that extreme. I think there'd probably be nationalisation of key industries, utilities and resources before there'd be a whole lot of infighting over them. Who knows though? The future is always hard to predict accurately.

I suspect some time in the next decade ratbag cultural groups will push their luck too much with the mainstream (especially if there's ever a terrorist attack in Australia by militant Muslims). In response, the mainstream will say enough is enough. I'm not sure that will mean much blood on the streets though unless there were something along the lines of 9/11. I could be wrong, but I don't think that's really the way here. If it ever looked like Cronulla x 100, the general populace would demand that the government sort both sides out in a fairly sensible way and there'd probably be laws widely supported by the general populace to nip any trouble makers in their proverbial buds.

Australia may certainly be viewed with covetous eyes by other nations but I think it's more likely that if it got towards that point, Australia would become a kind of colonial resource outpost for whomever our major ally/protector was (most likely America) and that we'd give them very "generous" trade deals.

Is Australia in for its own war?

Australia is a non- Muslim land. Islam is at war with you, and my land (America). Like it or not, Islam is at war with US, and we are not at war with islam. This has never been a war on terror. We can't wage a war on car bombs , planes as missiles. We are fighting the people that use terror, MUSLIMS.It's due time to drop the political correctness, that is getting us all no where. Australia and America both have some very bad house guests.

Jeff Davis

A very controversial message there. I think that you are placing a lot of blame, I mean there are people that are not Muslim that mean harm to both great countries and there are people that are not terrorist that mean harm to both countries. You cannot rush into putting blame or there is only more conflict

Then you should learn some Arabic, Dar al-Harb and Dar al-Islam. If you are Australian, you are Dar al-Harb. (House of war). All non Muslim lands are "the house of war" , until Muslims conquer them, and the land becomes Muslim land, and you become a Dhimmi, paying the Jizyah tax, and becoming a second class citizen.

Mohammed was a terrorist, this is why we have Muslim terrorists today. The Koran and the Hadiths teach terror, this is what Mohammed did after the Jews and Pagans denounced him. If we allow Islam into our lands, we are asking for death, and mayhem.

Jeff Davis

Some of the conditions under which the non-Muslims had willfully adopted citizenship of Daarul Islam, and which were proposed by Hazrat Umar (Radiyallahu anhu), are:

We will not sell liquor.

We will not display the Cross on our churches, or any other public place.

We will only ring our church bells softly, and only from within [and not outside] our churches.

We will not raise our voices during prayers.

We will not display the yoke at any public place.

We will not celebrate the festivals of Easter and Palm Sunday.

We will not call towards our religion.

(Al Mughni Vol. 10 pg. 606 as quoted in I’laa-us sunan pg. 520 vol. 12.)

When Abu Ubaida ib Jarraah (Radiyallahu anhu) conquered Shaam (Syria), he stipulated similar condition on the non-Muslim citizens as Hazrat Umar (Radiyallahu anhu) used to stipulate. The Christians thereafter requested to be allowed to celebrate one day of festivity within the year, in which they are allowed to display the Cross. Hazrat Abu Ubaida-tubnul Jarraah wrote to Hazrat Umar (Radiyallahu anhu), and received this reply:

“They may celebrate one day of festivity within every year. They may only display the Cross outside the city. As far as within the city, or the Muslim public, they may not display the Cross. This is only for this particular day. They may not display the cross on any other day. (Even outside the cities)” (I’laa-us sunan pg. 520 vol. 12)

Umar bin Abdul Aziz (rahimahullah) wrote to his governor such:

“Do not leave a cross exposed. Should you find one, demolish and efface it.” (I’laa-us sunan pg. 520 vol. 12; Idaratul Qur’aan)

These quotations bear ample testimony to the fact that religious symbols may not be publicly displayed in Daarul Islam.
It is only when Muslims firmly enforced such laws that Islam reigned superior on earth. Thus the object for which Daarul Islam was established had been achieved

We are breaking away from the original question, but I will write to answer about your point.

Firstly to say that I am not as familiar as these sacred writings with someone such as yourself. But I do know that there are some very fundamentalist ideas in their writings, which are very prone to misinterpretation.
We as well have very traditional and what many may call evil writings in Catholic texts, with events and doings that are horrific. You seem very educated in this area, so you would also know that there are writings in these Islamic texts that teach of peace and harmony and is very narrow minded to accuse a religion of being evil when our Western religion has its own deficiencies.

True , the catholic texts were violent, as was the church itself with the Inquisition ect. But that was yesterday. I would like to see the world's reaction should the church set up Auto de fa now.
Yet Islam still is as violent as ever, still preaches the same terrible dogma, still brainwashes it's youth into turning the streets and markets into 'rivers of blood'
And still people defend it's right to do so.
How about a good old fashioned barbie?

Dear Epi
I can answer your question about the 'fundamentals' of Islam very easily, from a transcipt of an ABC interview with Sheikh Fehmi of the Preston mosque.

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT
Geraldine Doog

The ..... Holy Qu'ran (is) considered by Muslims to be the literal word of God and not open to interpretation ?

Sheikh Fehmi Iman
Islam is the clear clean page which doesn't change. It didn't change in the past, is not changing now, it will not change in the future.
END TRANSCRIPT

Epi, you only task now is to determine what Islam teaches. Have a look at Sura 23:6 which states that a man can have wive(s) and also captive slave girls for sex. (Those your right hand possesses)
Much more could be said. Have a look at Sharia law and "Apostacy".

Shorbe.. thanx mate :)

The task of establishing Australian Identity is not an overnight thing, nor can it be implemented in a rough and harsh way.
The key is 'Nationality First/ Ethnicity second.' we must promote this idea at every level of society. After 2 generations, any sense of ethnicity should have dissappeared, being replaced by 'Australian'.

We need to set the major reference points in place now..Immigration,Education and Media. It should be done as far as possible in a concensus manner. Those opposing this, will without question be marginalized, by themselves, not by us.

Dear Jeff Davis.... "amen"... right on.

We are in this together.

I've never felt so close to living under Sharia Law as I do now...

But Shorbe.. stand up comic ? :) nah.. I did consider standing outside RMIT in my TaeKwanDo outfit.. (street theatre to get attention and for protection so I don't die the 'death of a thousand kicks to the guts' :)

My strategy would comply with the RRT. but would most likely have an impact they are seeking to avoid. "TRUTH".....

The worst enemy of Islam is truth... about its founder.. (torture, murder, sexual exploitation, genocide, ethnic cleansing etc)

Remember.. it is not illegal to have a genuine good faith POLITICAL or..Artistic purpose. In my case, it would be the Political purpose raising awareness seeking a change in the law.

Which of course, demonstrates the stupidity of the law. It is possible to criticize Mohamed, Islam, Muslims and Christ, Christianity and Christians as long as it is artistic or political and in good faith.

What I find ludicrous is that Humor..comedy is something which 'holds up to public ridicule' yet it is not prevented by the act. Yet Pastors who inform based on real world experience are declared 'villains' by the same Law .....

I am now working up a case to have the Quran banned, and some Bookshops as the 'respondents'.... with a goal of ridding us of this stuuuupid law. But have to fit that in between earning a living :)
So please don't ask me in 2 days time how I'm going with it....
Cheers and solidarity with u all.

Epi, I think that some of the posters so far on here are answering
your question!

In fact if we look around the world, a pattern emerges. You'll
find that in say the Middle East, lots of Jews and Arabs get on
fine. That same principle applies in most places. There
seems to be a small % of the population who are religious nuts,
Jewish, Xtian or Muslim. They are extremists and they are 90%
of the problem in all these squabbles. They are obsessed with
religion and that only their's is the correct one. Yet they
are as bad as one another, no matter which faith.

In my experience, secular kinds of people soon blend in and get
on with one another, they are rational kind of people in general.
Once you throw relgious fundamentalism in there, no matter which
faith, squabbles will be inevitable, all very sad really.

The intolerance of religious extremists of all faiths is the
real problem. Thats why I have become intolerant of the intolerant.

Mickijo you make some good points and highlight some things (below), many are not be aware of:

"We now have alleged terrorists who, if charged, face years in Australian prisons. They will be kept on Australian tax payer’s expense, their families will be kept, educated, housed and fed at tax payer’s expense and their children possibly will grow up with a hatred of those same tax payers.”

The only amendments I would make are "Their children ABSOLUTELY will be INDOCTRINATED with hatred of those same tax payers"

It's the best example of cuckolding I’ve seen in a long time.

BOAZ_David if there is anyway I can help in the States please let me know.

Jeff Davis

I really doubt that Australia will erupt in violence. However, if people continue their spread of hatred for each other simply because they hold different religious beliefs or ideologies, then I do wonder if Australia will see more skirmishes like Cronulla.

What do the christian right think they'll achieve by continually condemning ALL muslims?

Why do others claim that because other people hold different ideologies they are 'morally bankrupt'?

Fact is people want to live their lives, feed their families and much prefer to get along with each other - if this wasn't true we would've died out a long time ago.

However, at least the hate-mongers serve a single if limited purpose; constant vigilance is required to protect our freedoms.

To sit in judgement of others is arrogant and pointless - if we look for faults we will always find them.

If people wish to criticise others, then why not start with yourselves - if you find you are perfect then, maybe, you can rant all you like, however, I must point out that casting aspersions is hardly an example of perfect behaviour.

Go out meet new and different people - get to know your neighbours - even if they do wear strange clothes, or speak with an accent different to yours - you will be pleasantly surprised to find that they human beings too.

Very good Scout.

“Fact is people want to live their lives, feed their families and much prefer to get along with each other”

And people generally will get along with each other for as long as life is good and everyone is perceived to have more or less the same level of access to the essentials and the good things in life.

But as things tighten up, spurred most significantly by rising fuel prices, all sorts of inequalities and perceived inequalities are going to open up. This is when strife is bound to manifest itself, and under the guise of cultural / religious / ethnic / racial differences.

It’s a resource-driven, quality-of-life, equality, sustainability issue first and foremost. And only a cultural / religious / ethnic / racial issue at a much lower level.

“…constant vigilance is required to protect our freedoms.”

Yes, and two of the most important things that we can do to protect our freedoms are to get us onto a sustainable basis as quickly as possible, and demand accountable government that facilitates equality instead of effectively promoting inequality.

Scout a very good message, one that reinforces the point I am trying to make. Even though there are some very horrific things in some Muslim texts, and still are, doesn’t mean they necessarily follow them. These extremists and fundamentalists are those that feel they should follow these writings, but going back to my earlier point that although the Christians do not follow some of the worse content in the Bible, doesn’t mean it isn’t still there. Humans naturally do not want to change, because of cultural tradition, which keeps content in the Bible and the Qur’an.
Please do not mistake me for defending all those that wish to cause conflict, and death, but to condemn a whole race is outrageous and I honestly don’t think we need to make everyone into an Australian identity. I would go so far as to say migrants living here are appreciative and love this country, but to ask they change their traditions and habit is not right. As I have said before “I know if I lived in another country, I could never, ever, forget where I come from, and what it holds to me.

Thanks, Epithemeos. I lived for a while in the USA - and discovered just how much I loved Australia. As a result, I learned just how hard it must be for people to leave the countries of their birth and I agree people should not be forced to become something they are not. Some of the most passionate Aussies I know were not born here, yet their dress and customs are not exactly Hoges and meat pies.

Ludwig, I understand your point regarding sustainability, however the best and most urgent thing we can do is wean ourselves off oil - thus eliminating our need to be involved in and dependent on the Middle East. Another step is to recycle - we are too dependent on disposable items; we can manufacture goods with longevity and not to do so is a disgrace. An investigation into sustainable population based on renewable energy would also be a good start.

However, I return to my point about hate-mongering - the best we can do is ignore the bigots and accept rather than tolerate those who are different. 'Tolerance' seems to have a use-by date attached to it - as in 'I will tolerate so and so for a while', whereas acceptance is simply that - more about live and let live. I know it gets hard sometimes, I am sick to death at being judged as morally questionable by some on OLO who believe they know better than anyone else. I will try harder to accept them, but it doesn't mean I have to obey them.

;-)

One of the main fears about the forthcoming resource crisis or the manifestation of our unsustainable lifestyles will be the proliferation of hate and divisions of all sorts.

The urgency to get onto a genuine sustainable basis is not just about matching resource demand and supply, it is also very much about minimising the proliferation of the hate factor, which threatens to tear our society apart, just as surely as restricting or cutting access to basic resources.

We could very easily find ourselves in a state of implosion or perhaps virtual civil war. All sorts of divisions could open up, not just those to do with religion. We could see city against country, citizen against bureaucrat, state against state, region against region, haves against have-nots and so on.

I think that addressing hate-mongering as it has manifest itself under the name of Islam or whatever is like dealing only with recycling and thinking we are addressing all of sustainability. It’s basically addressing a symptom of a much larger disease.

As we become less able to support ourselves and our families, tolerance is going to go out the window. We haven’t got a hope in hell of reducing hate-mongering until we address the fundamentals of our quality of life...by making sure that the transition off of the cheap super energy package that is oil is as quick, smooth and fair as possible

Ludwig

On this thread, I think we are in agreement.

Once upon a fairy tale time, Australians did get on together, played together , worshipped or not together. In fact had a pretty peaceful time without too much worrying about anything in particular.
Then came Multiculture and the fine fairy tale ended "not happily ever after".
Because we had drugs, gangs,drive by shooting,Cronulla, thugs gang raping etc. All the horrors of ethnic wars enacted on our once peaceful streets.Demonstrations.
Still there is plenty of ethnic restaurants, that must mean something. Doesn't it?

Dear Jeff

the best thing you could do re helping, would be to write and mobilize a few others also to write to our Premier.. letting him know that you are incredulous about this vile RACIAL and RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE ACT 2001. The only effect it has is to INFLAME ill feeling rather than subdue it. Refer posts above for details.

This is the act.. take note of section 8 and 9 specially.
http://tinyurl.com/p2khb

Here is the premiers email steve.bracks@parliament.vic.gov.au

If you have any issue you wish me to write about to your congress, let me know mate.

LUDWIG... very perceptive.. about resources etc.. and I can assure you from personal experience.. the greater the emphasis on cultural DIFFerence, the greater will be the suspicion etc. Scout might get along well with her Muslim neighbours.. as we all would most likely. But the problem is NOT with the one on one neighbourly relationships, it is with the COMMUNITY groups, leaders councils etc... Scouts Muslim neighbour is not going to whinge to Scout about some aspect of our law or foreign policy but they WILL more than likely voice their feeling via their community associations.. examples
-Change our assessment of Hezbollah from Terrorist, to 'Political'.
-Blame Israel completely for the outbreak of War.
...wake up Scout. Be friendly....but don't be naive.

To those of a prayerful inclination.. remember me 2night, I'm going to the Wheelers Hill hotel on a 'freelance journalist' assignment to dig out some info if possible on the 150 person riot there last week.
Wisdom, Love and discernment from above are my greatest needs.

cheers all.

Boaz, I just came home from work and will start emailing some bloggers, and website owners and try to get a paltalk room to do a "show" that airs on the internet, maybe with a guest or 2. I'll see what I can mixup. Best of wishes.

Jeff

BD

Wake up - don't presume to judge.

Boaz David,

You wrote:

"WE HAVE a culture, and if anyone wishes to come here, they are expected to embrace it, and if they have religious prohibitions about the way we do things....DON'T COME."

I just wondered: drinking (usually beer) is part and parcel of Australian culture. Would you be banning those whose religion does not allow them to consume alcohol?

YUYUTSU

good point.

I don't consider 'drunkenness' part of our culture. Having a social drink with friends at a bar-b-q is fine.

Its a bit difficult to summarize a whole culture in each post. But to discover "Australian" culture, you need to research it a bit.
Where there are attitudes and behaviors which don't fit into 'do for others as you would have them do for you' then I see no need or point in embracing them.

The key points of Culture are as follows:

-Language
-Dress (yes, this is important.. nothing too 'stand out' as from other cultures, in my view. I've 'lived' this, so I speak from experience).
-Greetings. (Shake hands...not rub noses)
-Rites of passage. (Birth, marraige death)

BIRTH. No female genital mutilation.

MARRAIGE. No "forced" arranged marraiges

DEATH. We have laws concerning entombment and burial.. they must follow them.

EMERGENCY SERVICES. Should base their approach to ALL members of the community on Australian law and culture. Not any other.

EDUCATION. No such thing as 'ethnic' schools. (Ethnic schools are a racist idea) Religious schools ok, as long as Australian culture and history are correctly taught.

I think you have an unbalanced understanding of our culture :)
Bear in mind, our culture has been under attack for decades... it also has weaknesses.. which we as a nation should address. One of those weaknesses is the idea that manhood and booze are closely related. Lets work to remove that idea.
"And do not be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit" says the Bible... not a bad part of our Christian heritage to emphasize.

Maybe watched too many Hoges tourism adverts ?

YuYu

sorry I missed that point about 'religion forbidding them to consume alchohol'.....

I would never support making people consume alchohol in the name of culture. The point about 'drinking' is in fact socializing. This can be done without alchohol...and in my personal view should be.

An important point though, is that people must consider if there is anything they cannot do here which is a normal requirement in education or work (such as the wearing of beards and safety helmets) which they cannot agree to. Sikhs etc.. I would say 'If you don't want to comply with safety helmets...DON'T come :) This was a MAJOR issue in Canada. I don't think our industrial law should be changed in a discriminatory manner for the sake of a miniscule minority.
The same applies to Islamic prayer and friday prayers. If they don't wish to fit our system.. again...don't come. Or if already here and don't like it... leave...goto Indonesia or Malaysia.. etc.

I'd love to see us seek to raise awareness of NOT needing chemical stimulants for healthy happy social interaction. Bring on the Milo and hot choccy :) I still do love a cuppa tea and coffee but am not aware of any special mood impact on myself.

cheers

Dear Jeff.. well done mate :) appreciated.

BOAZ: Just a couple of random points on what you've written.

Yes, it's strange how stand up comics are exempt yet people who are trying to be serious and discuss real issues aren't. I think it actually says a lot about the (im)maturity of our society and just how far we have to go regarding censorship from and against any side.

Personally, I don't have a problem with schools that are set up to discriminate against particular groups, so long as I don't have to fund them. If people want to set up ethnic schools, religious schools, single sexed schools or whatever, that's fine by me, and it should be nobody's business but their own (although, of course, others should be able to freely criticise or ridicule them).

I think the underlying problem in all of this for me is that government presumes to prescribe morality and lifestyle for individuals, when people (as individuals or as voluntary members of groups) should be the ones to decide that for themselves. That's why, as someone who is highly critical of (if not outright disdainful of) organised religion, particularly Christianity, I support you on this. It's nobody's right to step in and censor anybody else, even if that person holds beliefs that are wrong, violent, etc. Actions may be one thing, but words are another.

Scout: All your talk about being tolerant or being against bigotry and so on is a bit rich considering your comments on another thread about "lowest common denominator" regarding those who don't watch ABC. More of the hypocrisy of the left: Muslims are off limits, but bogans are fair game. Maybe you should check out some Jim Goad.

Having said that, I agree with you entirely about cutting our dependence upon oil, moving towards sustainability, etc., although I suspect we would go about it in different ways.

Shorbe

I think it’s a bit rich when you:

A) deliberately misrepresent something I say

and

B) use that piece of misinformation to malign me on another thread.

For the record I stated in regard to the privatisation of the ABC:

“Loss of the ABC would mean loss of innovation, information and alternatives to the pap served up by for-profit TV. All of this info and entertainment which would be lost if the ABC became another ratings obsessed, lowest common denominator, boringly mainstream, commercial channel.”

I never even mentioned you in relation to ‘lowest common denominator’, now settle down and read thoroughly in future.

For those who can be a*sed the full exchange is available at:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4605

I believe we need a combination of government and private enterprise and Shorbe doesn’t.

I apologise for moving off-topic, however I believe that it is small misunderstandings that lead to great big wars and perhaps by edifying Shorbe I have prevented an escalation of events.

;-D

Scout: I didn't say you did mention me with regard to the lowest common denominator (you were certainly point scoring and using invective, though not directly at me, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't have a problem with the hypocrisy of you complaining about it when you started it!), but it doesn't mean you're not full of it and that I shouldn't bring it to the attention of others in other threads. I'm not misrepresenting you as an elitist bigot or a hypocrite, since you fit the definitions perfectly. In this thread, you're talking about everyone being all tolerant of others, and yet elsewhere you talk of the lowest common denominator (and don't try to argue semantics: you can't claim such a commercial channel is lowest common denominator without claiming those who watch it are also) and claim that your personal tastes in entertainment are somehow for the common good, whilst not recognising the absurdity of trying to claim the subjective as the objective.

I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me, and I could quite possibly be wrong on the whole matter. What I have a problem with is that you're trying to play the good guy and claim you know what's good for people and that you care about them whilst simultaneously looking down your nose at their "pap" and them for being "boringly mainstream" or of "the lowest common denominator". If you want to be elitist or bigoted, that's fine -- there are some people here at OLO whose opinions I really dislike, but at least they're consistent, and at least they're up front about it. I don't have a problem with that in a way -- I'm inclined to a little misanthropy myself (though I also don't claim to be for humanity). It's the denial and the hypocrisy on your part, and then you trying to lecture (me) on morality that get to me. If your starting position is one of intolerance, how can you then claim to be for tolerance?

I read the first thought to raise this discussion for the topic "Is Australia in for its own war?" and thought this should get a few different voices and opinions...
I scrolled and scrolled, drank 2 cups of coffee and finally came to the end and found the topic lost. My personal belief to the original question is while we as human beings from too many cultures and with too many jealousies, resentments, ill conceived righteousness and with the basic flaws of wo/man kind. War will come. It already has. The new age of war is sly, sneaking up on us and ever so slowly making a mark on us one by one to learn to hate as a whole, distrust as a whole and never think of sharing a very small world with an ever increasing population of nearly 7 billion. Do I want to fight for this war? I am irish stock and my family escaped from being imprisoned as IRA terroists and my beliefs are no. Strange that all of our Gods and Men and women who we have respect for in our history didnt create hate..Children dont want to fight want peace and want to end the sadness of the world, we were those children once.

Shorbe

All I am doing is putting forth my OPINION - whether it is right or wrong is entirely moot. You are reading far more into it than was ever intended - you have chosen to take it personally. Now I am not interested in pursuing this line of argument with you. So, please desist.

If you have something to offer on the possibility of Australia erupting in conflict, please go ahead. I have made the point I wanted to make on this topic - now it is over to you.

Australia is a bit more than'grog',otherwise why should so many fight to come here. This is a put down by those who try to make out they are our superiors because they are forbidden to drink alcohol and quite frankly watching their frenzied demonstrations at times, one can see the wisdom in that taboo. It is obvious that some do not have the intelligence or what ever it takes to handle alcohol.
Many young Australians go just as brainless when affected, but if they survive they usually grow out of it. It seems to be used as a rite of passage now unfortunately as all they emphasise is their immaturity.
There is far more to being Australian , look to the volunteers, look to the fire brigades and all those who give their help to society without payment.
If you find a worthier country to call home,do not let us hold you back. We will get along without you very well.

alpha: I think that's a bit simplistic. The god of the Old Testament is/was a violent, hate-filled god. Likewise with that of the Koran. Most religions have that in them, whether they're monotheistic or polytheistic. Whether this is because men were created in God's image, or God was created in man's image, it doesn't matter.

Plenty of people respected from history were also full of hate.

Likewise, children do hate. Children do discriminate and bully and do all sorts of other nasty things. They're not as innocent as made out.

If hate doesn't come from a divine source, nor does it come with human genetics (and the desire to survive and beat enemies/opponents), then where does it come from?

Personally, I don't think there's anything new about the human condition, including hate and conflict. They've always been around and probably always will.

Scout: So, if someone put forth a racist opinion, you wouldn't call him or her on it, or at least think less of him or her if he or she went on to preach tolerance elsewhere? You've been caught with your hand in the cookie jar and now you're having a whinge.

Dear David Boaz,

I am glad that you do not wish to kick me out of Australia, because in my own citizenship-ceremony the mayor offered me a drink (and I refused... kinda part of my private religion).

Obviously some cultures have bad habits that we do not want here (such as honking the car horn to tell people inside that you are waiting for them): I am not talking about that, only about habits that are not harmful, just different.

I need further clarifications:

1. When you wrote, "and if they have religious prohibitions about the way we do things...", is the condition that those be religious prohibitions a substantial one, as opposed to other personal convictions and habits that makes one unwilling to do things in the same way as Aussies do?

2. Should an Australian who no longer wishes to embrace the Australian culture also find a different place to live?

3. Which authority is to decide which parts of the Australian culture are substantial and indispensable and which parts (such as drinking alcohol) can be avoided?

4. Why? what's actually wrong with people doing things in different ways?

---

BTW, safety helmets are not a normal requirement in education or work: you simply don't need to ride a bike (unless you are a postman). I was about to buy a bicycle just before this law was enacted in 1990 (because I cared about the environment and my fitness), but when this law appeared I gave up that idea and continue using my car to this day, sitting and polluting the air, because I consider it immoral and degrading to interfere with personal choice and tell other people what to wear or not to wear (and I have no beard or turban). Instead, the government could simply say: "if you fall off your bike and have no helmet, Medicare will not pay your hospital fees", then I could choose to take a special private insurance against falling off a bike without a helmet. This is actually a case where cultural/religious differences expose the pre-existing unfairness of certain laws.

Unfortunately, my writing seems to be confusing as I did blame our human flaws that create insecurities, jealousies and the need to be in control. I disagree with the children theory you offered as it is based on fact that you have manipulation and control over a childs mental and intellectual growth. You are able to raise a child in peace and it has been proven time and time again. You can raise a child in racism and to change the childs thoughts and beliefs when they mature is very difficult. Considering how much power we have in raising our future generations it is simplistic to believe that they are born with these negative beliefs that the adults that they see constantly in their life have in abundance.

Yuyutsu: You won't ride a bike because you don't want someone telling you to wear a helmet, but what about seatbelts for cars?

alphafemale: Maybe humans are born nice and taught to be nasty. Maybe they're born nasty and taught to be nice. That's very much a philosophical question, and it's pretty hard to sort out nature from nurture entirely as there examples of both good and bad, and children will certainly do things without adult prompting. It's natural, to some extent, to divide into "us" and "them". Any social organism does it as it's kind of an extension of self-promotion for survival.

Shorbe,

Mandatory wearing of seat-belts is indeed a gross violation of human-rights.

Fortunately for me, I happened to be already wearing seat-belts since they were first introduced - long before it became a law.

In my own personal opinion, especially living in a great country such as this one, how we could contemplate, making people from other cultures assimilate into our own. I mean, our ancestors tried it already, with the Aboriginal Australians and it is indeed something with its own ramifications as well as almost an embarrassing part of a nations history.