Many have asked the queston and out of their own beliefs, a lot of us will go to heaven, we know (maybe) where the rest of us end up. when one eventually kicks the can, we had lived a life with a magnificent brain together with all the other vital functions of sustaining life,
when we go, is there in fact an afterlife? Does the brain in fact die and for the average of 65 years on this planet, is that it? I believe there is something more to it than this, maybe this earth is a preparation and test for the after life, if there is one. Sceptics seem to know that when the time comes, thats it. Then why do we hear stories of those fortunate ones (or unfortunate) that have nearly died on the operating table and had visions of a life more glorious (or so they interpret) and they seem to compare this with what we call a "heaven" when in actual fact, it could be the other world we are destined to go to.

Interesting thought, hope we can look at it from a not my God is better than your God view.
What do I think? not sure! but twice in my life I thought a dead loved one was near me, in fact knew.
Worth noting the Bible says it can not be so not even Jesus has come back yet.
We mostly think some form of after life exists just maybe mans brain is greater than we can believe.
Maybe it comforts us in that last dieing thought.
If a God known to us exists we are little more than toys in the biggest sand box you ever saw.
Alive only to worship and live as we are told or else?
death is death final and forever but I admire mans brain.

Hi Belly, you're right, although this has a somewhat religious tinge to it, my thoughts are not in that direction, more the interest of why we hear of so many people who have had near death experiences or someone going to a spot and digging up a box they buried in their so-called previous life. I figure there is some kind of connection here as I have to date, read some 200 reports of people iether remembering places they have never set foot in and gone to the place without being given directions. Some may think this a hoax, still, the brain is a fantastic tool and cannot imagine this machine we call a body, driven by the brain, just disintegrates to nothingness. Why do we talk to loved ones who've pass over? Why do some of insist on contacting the afterlife? We hear of people who can prove this afterlife, of which I must see to believe, I am also a sceptic but with an open mind, people try to contact lost loved ones as an escape or comfort. There are too many stories going around on this subject and I doubt without just cause.

As a continuation,those who can afford to go into cryogenic state, in other words, freeze until a remedy is found far ahead in the future, is beyond me. Once the body, brain and other major functions are dead, how can anyone expect to have all of the above revived and expect to continue living? I suppose it's "have money-will do" senario. I brought up this topic as this is maybe the possible one sure way of being able to ensure one sees the future hundreds of years ahead, but who is going to sustain your "capsule" until then?
Medicine is far more advanced than we are lead to believe, just like we think the US government is in fact hiding something, always covering up, they already know 10-20 years if not more than we are lead to believe for todays knowledge, they just cannot let too much out at one time, for fear of mass panic.

Yes, thats all there is folks. The message is, live the life you have to the fullest because there are no second chances.

Heaven is a comforting little fairy story for those unable to face the reality of death.

I have studied every philosopher from the pre-Socratics to Peter Singer, major writers such as C.S. Lewis, Tolstoy and Shakespeare, every religion and every variation of every religion from ancient Mesopotamia to many denominations of Christianity, genetics and physiology, and hundreds of "Afterlife" i.e. "near-death experiences" (NDEs). At the end of the day, it all boils down to two things: faith and hope. You cannot prove either scientifically using physics, biochemistry, diagnostic technology e.g. CT, MRI and PET scans, nor can the human sciences of psychology and psychiatry. Plato advises us in "Republic" to live a virtuous and just life. The Holy Bible gives us the 10 Commandments and The Beatitudes. Live your life by these maxims and the Afterlife will take care of itself.

It's madness, most of us strive to get better, do better, amass more than the other, out-do, rise above one another, dominate, belittle and derogatate others, all to get ahead to get a better life and obviously to amass as much as possible before dooms day, and for what?
One is able to leave it to their next of kin, you certainly cannot take it with you, unless of course there is a supermarket of some kind on the other side! If for instance you are aged and have millions, I'm talking filthy rich and you have no-one to leave it to, the government takes it after it lying in state for a couple of years, then some lazy @rse scoops it up and none's the wiser! I've heard of people requesting to be buried with some money in their coffins, to spend in their afterlife, now thats persistance and may I add, damn well tight fisted! I have never heard of it being left to a needy cause, except to their pets? it happens! what the heck is a pomeranian going to do with millions, then it goes to the dogs handler. We as humans have this whole life thing wrong.

"It's madness, most of us strive to get better, do better, amass more than the other, out-do, rise above one another, dominate, belittle and derogatate others, all to get ahead to get a better life and obviously to amass as much as possible before dooms day, and for what?"

Well in that case most of you are simply philosophically challenged :)
Why do you want more then what is enough, in order to be secure and
happy? Perhaps its just the old hunting instinct surfacing.

I certainly don't see the human brain as the amazing thing that you
do. Its simply our evolutionary niche. Every species needs to make
a living. We are relatively weak, slow to run, have poor eyesight and
hearing etc. Our niche is thinking a bit more then other species.
Mind you, there is a risk in that too. We are now smart enough to
invent interest new things, stupid enough to misuse them and wipe
ourselves out in the process. IMHO the stupid will prevail, sadly.

Heaven is here an now, thats the only certainty. If you want, I can
sell you some snake oil, promise you all sorts of things, as long as
you become a follower of what I claim. As the guru, I would of course
want your money and lots of easy sex perhaps :)

Yup, you continue on, via your dna. Your body/brain get chewed up
by the worms, we can show that. But your dna continues, if you
had children/grandchildren. No wonder when those grandmommy
hormones kick in, they will do anything for the grandkids and it
makes them feel great!

Yabby,
Yep, I'm one of those who regard the brain a wonderful creation, especially when there are many of us weakling humans, who are born with a brain defect, thats the part of "wonder" I talk of, not in a self righteous way.
Are we being kept in the dark as far as future inteligence is concerned? There are a lot more than just a handful of people going for this cryogenic thing and it makes one wonder whether certain persons have access to information known only to those in top secret positions, like those guys who keep covering up the space craft incident and the beings found inside the craft, surely those "beings" had some futuristic info to dig out from? Maybe they hold the answer to "where to from here" and the sly buggers from Nasa don't want any of us to know about it, until much later into the future. With this in mind, do you realise that the motor car was invented only a few years ago, then all of a sudden we are booking holidays in space, for crying out loud!

There is more than one way to approach the question of mortality -it need not be an exclusively religious issue:

The only thing that makes ‘us’ mortal is that ‘our’ consciousness support system/body eventually fails.If consciousness could migrate to a new body before the old one fails -or the body could be made self renewing -the sky’s the limit!

Farfetched it may currently sound , on a number of fronts there are trends/developments which taken to their inevitable conclusion will see ‘us’ able to alternate between bodies at will, and they need not only be flesh & blood version’s.

Would the consciousness inside still be human/us, if it resided in a non-human/mechanical shell? -I think the answer is yes - but would it really matter?

As for those of us who’ll miss the boat -all need not be lost - if it is deemed worthwhile ( & it may not be ) our 'unique' I’s & me’s could be conjured from some futuristic maths formula.

{ Then, there are those who think we are all just part of a giant SIMS game anyway -but that’s another story -another thread.}

I have never stopped searching for the answer to the question, in truth I doubt many have.
Once a Christian I even now ask what is behind the near death story's and note most who have them are no longer Christians after that?
And previous lives? spooky.
But I tell you why I think our brain is great.
Starting a long drive within minutes of my fathers death to inform my brothers I felt my dad ride that trip with me, comforting.
On walking in to my home for the first time after my mother died I felt her right there.
So the brain is a great thing and in my view live every day of your life its all we get.
But what if? just kidding!
One other thing of interest how many who had to wait by a dieing persons bed are stunned by the fact they did not die until the last one they waited for came?

Spanky

I confess, I generally hover between an atheist and an agnostic. I continue to maintain that "religion is the root of all evil",

However, I am reminded of the 10 commandments and believe from an altruistic point of view, we should all endeavour to abide by those rules (I'm a miserable failure!)

Some neuroscientists theorise that near death experiences are triggered by electrical currents to the temporal and parietal lobes of the brain, a result of oxygen starvation and CO2 overload, sometimes experienced by fighter pilots.

I guess the vision of the beautiful white light and tunnel is a comforting delusion - but who knows?

My mother was born profoundly deaf and blind with just sufficient hearing to be able to speak with a distinct impediment. Specialists claim her poor sight was a result of inheriting retinitis pigmatosis, however, no other family member has ever had the disease.

The Buddhist belief is if you are a bad human in one life, you need to pay your dues in the next - hence the "deaf and blind" thing?

Apologies for banging on about my deceased mum, however, though unworldly, she was extremely psychic and accurate as well. Due to her accurate predictions, she was constantly pestered by people who wanted to know what the future held.

She was adamant that "a coin must never cross one's palm" and this gift must only be used for the good of others. She was not hindered by her physical disabilities and perhaps her enhanced intuition and wisdom compensated for that. She was considered an "old soul" by many of her contemporaries.

As a result, I am rather influenced by the concept of reincarnation.

On the other hand, I believe the brain is a magnanimous organ, sadly neglected by we humans where most of us have not used it to full capacity. The experiences of people gaining messages from the deceased may only be genetic. After all we inherit diseases or good health from our ancestors, why should we not inherit a memory of ancestors' experiences through a brain we have inherited from them?

Its my birthday today! Just thought I'd mention it on this thread, it seems applicable somehow?
Dickie, thanks for the comeback, good to hear from you again mate!
Maybe the belly's and the rogers and the alampoi's, teddles and yabbies, dickies and spanky's and the rest in the world, could all get together in the next life somewhere.
Seeing that dogs are my most favourable animals, maybe I'll come back as a dog, a really big ugly s.o.b. to scare the living daylights out of those who have been bad to me in my previous life! and I'm not a vindictive person. There are literally thousands of stories similar to the ones mentioned in this thread, our brain, although evolved to what it is today, is in its own right a small powerhouse, capable of feats as in the case of Yuri Geller, bending spoons? Then theres levitation, in days gone by we had people seen as sorcerers, today they were seen as alchemists and scientists, who would have been burned at the stake for witchcraft, for even mentioning "afterlife", the ever present and more prominant discussions on the presence of ghosts, now there's something that has been blown out of proportion! Every "old" house the media come across, is all of a sudden haunted. The presence of ghosts would surely be a true sign of afterlife, if there is one, but there again, there is always an answer from a sceptic to dowse the ever enquiring human mind.

"there is always an answer from a sceptic to dowse the ever enquiring human mind."

Spanky, in our society you are free to believe whatever you want,
but of course there is no shortage of snakeoil salesmen, looking for
yet another sucker. They are not exactly uncommon :)

Cryogenics is clearly great business. Nobody has been brought back
with the technology, but people pay huge amounts for the service.
If the cleaning lady trips over the freezer plug, too bad eh.

I see death as another way. When old farts become irrational
and unable to change, its time for a younger generation. You've
been lucky, experiencing 75-90 years, enjoy it, live it, accept
it. Then let others have a go too, only so many can fit on this
planet on one time. We do actually owe other species a moral
obligation for some space on planet earth, not just wall to wall
humans.

Well happy birthday Spanky.

We'll have a tinny or 2 in your honour.

1. Melbourne is a town which really makes you wonder if there is a hereafter

2. Maybe there's no hell. Maybe hell's just having to listen to Grandpa and Grandma breathe through their noses while they eat their sandwiches.

3. You know you're close to death when the candles cost more than the cake.

4. Old age is not so bad when you consider the alternative

5. For 3 days after death, the hair and fingernails continue to grow but the phone calls taper off

6. "I do benefits for all religions. I'd hate to blow the hereafter over a technicality." (Bob Hope)

Every day above the ground is a good one.

I believe we do have telepathic powers. I have often been thinking something good about a stranger, how they look nice or that I'm attracted to them and they will suddenly look at me and smile even though I havent smiled first. Everybody has had bad vibes about strangers too and I believe this is because we are picking up on the nasty thoughts or intentions in their minds by some sort of transference or telepathy.

There are instances where this mind connection happens over distance too especially with close friends or relatives.

It seems to be something random or hard to measure because it cant always be done on command as in tests and such but it definitely happens. The fact that something unexplained like this happens may indicate forces at work that we do not yet understand and may somehow be connected to afterlife transference by something that exists within the brain or it may simply be that the brain is more powerful than we realise.

As yet our children and their children are our only KNOWN hope of immortality here on earth.

Some people would think this day a lucky one, having a birthday on 07/07/007 and all, it was the same as in 07/07/1977, still no pot of gold! It is the right way of thinking, by moving on while others take your place, the cryogenic story I totally believe that they have not, as yet, brought anybody back from cryo-state and the possibility of the cleaning lady tripping over the cord put a lid on any designs I had about going into cryogenic state! I could just imagine.."we have found a cure for watsisname,...errr..why's the plug on the floor?"
I think I will opt for the worms bit.
(Thanks dickie!)

Belly, I can tell you that I have also felt those wierd, eerie kind of feelings, inexplicable as if something or someone is in your "space" or to close for comfort. Some would call it paranoia, I call it sixth sense, when your body tenses for no apparent reason as if its telling you there is something there. Yep, been there, done that, scared the living daylights out of me..next please!
Phenomina, the unsure, uncanny, the body is not often wrong, if some people learned to take more note of these natural feelings, a lot of lives could have been saved, just by trusting bodily instincts.

I went "astral flying" for years. Doesn't happen to me anymore unfortunately.

Same event every time. Flying through the air from the West, careful to negotiate the threatening power lines, but arriving at the same destination for years, at a multi storeyed office block in Melbourne. Peering through the window of the top floor into a totally empty office. Then had to negotiate my way back to the West, careful to avoid many dangerous power lines, though the soaring and flying was exhilarating! Then the body jolt would occur, which would wake me from my travels - damn!

Who, when visiting a brand new destination, has had the instant flash of remembering they'd been there before, knowing they never had? Is that a genetic memory from an ancestor who had already been there before passing on?

And who has relatives who are often born or have died, on the same birth or demise date as their close relatives? Coincidence or something too explicit for we humans to solve?

SPANKY happy birthday, yes we all have felt that and I have zero doubt we have some ESP another reason I admire our brain.
Dog? can I come back as a Minni Foxy? the one that owns me gets well looked after and more than her share of my bed.

Belly, thankyou!
I've heard of people wanting to come back in the most unusual forms,
even wierdo's who want to come back as a dollar bill, because they are "handled" so often! If we had the option of coming back as any thing, that would be a little over the edge, but I think we are restricted to the human form.

If we imagine the afterlife has some physical individual dimension I'm afraid we are mistaken. The afterlife is the reflection of the indwelling spirit of who we are. It is not linked to natural chemistry. If our character is the ultimate admired it is of the eternal and that standard of character will remain forever. God is the eternal character of perfection, those indwelt and expressing his character live in God and God in them.

That character does not come by natural birth or by self will but by receiving the perfect Character of God i.e. the Holy Spirit. God does not die, the natural chemical world changes and recycles. The chemistry that is the brain becomes dust - the spirit - the character, attitudes and actions that express the nature of God are eternal.

Philo,
Please excuse my enquiring mind but are you in a round-about-way saying that we are trapped in some sort of Lotto or bingo draw? to see who comes back, as what, as where and as when? Yes I know about the "we are created in his image thingy" but lets be realistic and also take into consideration the facts of other creatures on this planet that have shown some type of bond to the after or previous life. I have an open mind as far as religion is concerned, on my side I still think that we are being watched from outer space and it's those people (whoever they are) that are the deciders in the fate of this world. (Why did that sound obscure?) Anything is possible, right?

No intent to be rude just a few thoughts for our Christian friend.
What God? men have many indeed and what one is the one God?
Why are those that follow another wrong?
If they all exist this after life would be crowded, can it be those who followed the right one are better than the rest?
What happens to all those well meaning good living followers of the wrong God?
Would in this after life my parents have time for me? as well as reuniting with theirs? who would want to spend time with theirs?
Such a crowd!
IF God exists, any God the one hundred true Gods or one God why not let us all know?
Why not visit and tell us the reason we live?
Our brain is of great comfort to us all it even tells us bed time story's if we need them to sleep in cold dark nights.
If man is one why must they have a different God?
Why must some be saved and some not?

Sacrificial love is pure, as a mother for a child. That love is eternally pure and holy and reflects the very character of God. In any culture or religion it only has one value and reflects upon the nature of God. Not many gods, it is the same value for every man.

That love gives unconditionally to cause growth, joy and fulfilment to the person to whom it is given. That quality of love is eternal and will not be superseeded or replaced by any other type of love. This is agapae love. It is the love that will assist an outcast - see Mother Teresa. It has many expressions but it is in the image of the divine. It is the heart of a rescuer toward a drowning criminal. We may naturally feel he deserves death, but we believe he deserves a chance to change his life.

Ok, so now after learning that we are to praise the one God, the one only we deem fit to adapt to our own individual life styles, Where do we go from here? Astral travel, now there's a way forward,(dickie mentioned it) if in fact we do indeed go to another place, I would think it would be through astral travelling, afterall, we would no-longer have a body to travel in, only possibly our own thoughts still lingering from life form? Maybe we go to another plain, or to where good people go, the bad ones just get eaten by worms! Now we arrive at the point of "heaven and hell" I am trying to keep off the religious line here and it seems it all points to what is rammed down our throats from young and always ends up directed towards religion. Can't blame it really, this is how we are taught to think, when all else fails, no explanation? then turn to God? Come on, lets not burden the old guy with too much.
My feeling is that, if we don't do well or good in this life, we relive it until we get it right, only then do we move on to the next level (sounds like a game of tomb raider!) We only then reap the benefits of the hard work done in our previous lives.

"Sacrificial love is pure, as a mother for a child. That love is eternally pure and holy and reflects the very character of God."

Ah Philo, motherly love comes down to good old evolution theory.
Lots of oxytocin involved there. Mothers of various species
fuss over their offspring. Those who don't, snap!, the kid
is soon eaten or dies in some other ways. She won't be passing
on her dna :(

What we know about altruism, ala Mother Theresa, is that it
makes people feel good. People like feeling good, so its in
their self interest to be altruistic.

Sadly, all I've read about Mother Theresa, was that she was
less concerned about suffering. But then the Catholic faith
IIRC, seems to claim that suffering is noble or something like
that. Sorry.... I want less suffering, not more.

Such cynicism - such a clinical approach, Yabby.

Mmm.....oxytocin aye? That's also found in the male species. Other male species raise their young, such as the emu. Pity help the mum if she tries to interfere with the chicks! Then you have the male seahorse who falls pregnant.

Many other male species either share the rearing of their young, or take over completely.

In yesterday's paper, there was a photograph of a cat and a rottweiler pup, where the pup claimed the cat as its mother. Now that's real cute. Oops sorry, Yabby - that picture triggered my dose of oxytocin!

I suspect that at times, in the human male, there may be an overload of testosterone which overrides the domestic hormone, oxytocin.

I've a friend who constantly warns of the "cripples collecting for charity - yeah right - that'd be for themselves!" says my buddy. So what's my buddy's motives in his cynicism hmmm? Meanness?

We once had a mentally challenged man in my community - representing a charitable religious organisation, who would visit all the pubs on Friday nights, rattling his money box.

Though, the entire town knew that he would cycle to the brothels, after collecting each Friday night, they continued to donate. "Half for the poor and half for Herbert", chorused all the pub-goers. So did that make them feel good? You bet!

I believe altruism is essential for the human species who are supposedly credited with a "higher" intellect. It's often seen in other species and we fail to recognise it. Without true altruism , despite the "feel good" aspect, it would be every man and beast for himself -"dog eat dog." (Apologies to the canine family!)

I guess, therefore, that many of us are under the influence of a religion. It's called "Karma." Certainly I am. "What goes 'round comes 'round!"

Endeavouring to adhere to that dogma, leaves one unconcerned about what might happen to us in the afterlife or the nasty threats from organised religions.

Anyway, billions have gone to the afterlife before us. Now that's a comforting thought!

"Many other male species either share the rearing of their young, or take over completely."

Well yup, nature does not care what strategy is used to raise the
offspring, as long as it gets results. David Attenborough showed
some great examples of this, in his "Life of Birds". What
it came down to, was that whichever gender made the larger investment
in raising the offspring, was also the fussy one, when it came
to sex. If an inpregnation is all that is invested, no need to be
too fussy lol.

The male equivelant of oxytocin is vasopressin. Some interesting
studies were done at the University of Maryland, to understand
pairbonding (marriage) a little better. The prairie vole happens
to be a loyal little critter, when it comes to life partners.
Unlike the kansas vole, who bangs anything that moves...

They did all sorts of experiments, with tempting little female
prairie voles, but he stayed loyal, unlike the kansas vole.

In the final analysis, it all came down to vasopressin receptors
in parts of the limbic system, which the prairie vole had, the
kansas vole didn't.

So dickie, if you want to know who is genuine and who is telling
stories at the pub, to achieve a quick impregnation, it perhaps
all comes down to vasopressin receptors!

Listen, I could'nt give a rats @ss who's recepting who and who bangs what with his or her oxytoxy thingy, as long as I get to know where the hell I end up after the long jump!

"as long as I get to know where the hell I end up after the long jump!"

Ah thats easy, so I don't know why you wonder. The worms will
chew you up and spit you out. You'll get recycled, like everything
else.

It would appear Yabby lives with imagined superior intelligence and with experience outside of the human reality, and believes such knowledge is above being mere mortals. 'I can explain how you behave; "The male equivelant of oxytocin is vasopressin."

The physical reality is expressed in the natural chemistry, however love is more than brain chemistry. Ask any loved person. In reality it is the spiritual reality that blesses and enhances others lives.

That Yabby prefers to live without such symplistic behaviours is Yabby's choice and the cynicism demonstrates the attitudes Yabby holds toward others who love with a pure heart. That Yabby understands biochemistry does not place Yabby beyond being human like the rest of us mortals.

Unless we love with purity of motive we have fallen short of the glory of God. We have fallen short of who we were created to be and have fallen short in our relationships with each other. Much of what is called love is not more than hidden deception and personal agenda. Which the opposite is demonstrated in my example of rescuing a vile criminal from drowning.

What will survive us as eternal is the values of the divine. There is no reincarnation of the same person or group of DNA chemistry.

"however love is more than brain chemistry."

Oh yeah? In that case my dog must be quite spiritual
lol, as she clearly loves her puppies.

At the end of the day, the mind is what the brain does!

Philo, you and others are free to follow the magical,
mystical and mythical, to amuse yourselves. I'll stick to
the factual thank you.

Hormones, ligands, peptides, they all affect human behaviour,
we can show that. You might not be aware of it, but brains
are busy little chemical factories.

We also have learned alot about how various parts of the
brain affect behaviour. People who had bits of their
brains destroyed in warfare etc and who survived to tell the
tale, yet changed personality in a big way, are a great
source of information.

But you clearly don't want these facts to interfere with
your good story.

Your heart pumps blood Philo, nothing more. We have proven
that too

Yabby,
except in one case I read about, one old guy requested to be buried with a crate of whiskey, his favourite kind of course, to take with him to his place of imagination, as this is all it is, a place of imagination, what the world has made us believe in and conjour up.
My place of imagination and a place where I would like to be, is a place where animals and humans live together with nature and if this isn't sappy enough, there is no fighting, racism, crime and to top it all off, no death or destruction, just peace, something this world has been alienated from.

Spanky

There's an old Buddhist saying for the afterlife:

If you believe in hell, you will see hell. If you believe in heaven, you will see only heaven.

So one should imagine the afterlife as "Nirvana." A place of wisdom and compassion.

Of course, my Nirvana would need to include my beloved and devoted animal friends as well.

Oops .....there goes my oxytocin again - or is it vasopressin!?

Hi Dickie,
My Nirvana will have no oxytocin nor vasopressin, as if the old saying goes, that the "afterlife is what we believe", then I believe these two words will be written out of my Nirvana! I am not a sceptic as far as the afterlife is concerned, there are too many instances where people have indeed had contact with those who have passed over,(or so they say) one has to only turn on the tv and tune in to the likes of John Edwards (I don't know whether you guys get this channel over there?)
Is it all fictitious stuff or is there some truth to his show? There are others who have jumped on his band wagon and started other shows, basically also claiming they some contact with the after life and acting as communicator for the living from the other side.

Yabby,
Prove to me that the chemistry of the brain by itself controlls any and all attitudes and behaviours independent of - and predetermines all attitudes and behaviours. You are stating the mind is not a free agent of its chemistry, but the chemistry that occurrs in the brain therefore controlls the mind and we are locked into its predetermined chemistry.

I suggest you talk to persons undergoing psychotherapy to control habbits or brain conditions. Our thoughts and attitudes create the conditions of change that occurrs in the brain. Ask persons suffering depression to laugh at anything [an act of will of the mind] and you will find the production of proteins that stimulate health and create change to negative thoughts and brain chemistry.

If your theory is correct people cannot change attitudes and behaviour by will because they are locked into predetermined chemical patterns. I ask is the mind more powerful than the chemistry of healthy humans or are we merely controlled by set brain chemistry?

Yabby you yourself speak outside as an observer of the chemistry of your brain. You prefer to submit to predermined and set brain chemistry I prefer to controll my will. I ask in your case; "Who is the I".

In your theory - people cannot change attitudes and behaviours because we are the products of predetermined chemistry. Therefore theives are free of blame, rapists are free to perform their vile deeds, peadophiles to molest children - they are controlled by mere evolved chemistry they cannot change.

Nonsense!

"Hormones, ligands, peptides, they all affect human behaviour,
we can show that."

Thats what I wrote Philo, not the "control" which you speculated.

There is in fact much competition within the brain, between
various centres. The rational and aware parts, are only a
small section of all that. The massive chemistry which
is happening, affects just about every decision you make,
if you are aware of it or not.

Next part is when in fact there are sections of the brain,
which are not functioning properly, or have been damaged,
as in wars, accidents, various defects etc. Epileptics
do not choose to have a seizure for instance, its just
part of their brain function. They cannot choose not
to have a seizure either.

A book worth reading, written by a well known neuroscientist,
to explain a bit about the brain to you is called
"Phantoms in the Brain". It discusses various medical
cases known to science. I got mine from Amazon.

You are the product of your mind and your brain does what
your mind is. Some of what you do, is voluntary, some not.
Virtually all your thoughts are affected by your brain
chemistry and influence your decision making, even if you
are unware of it.

Dickie just can't help being maternal for instance :)

Philo, Yabby,
There is this thing going around and has been going around for quite some time now, it's giving up ones organs when one leaves this life.
The heart, lungs, kidneys etc are all being given up for possible use for those who are suffering with cancer. How do we know that we have no use of them in the afterlife?
The comment of leaving this world, leaving your body and travel in spirit form, do these "parts" not travel with one?
The chemistry you speak of and are both quite adamant that we take on those chemicals of our forefathers, is very strange to me, one is concieved and the product of two consenting adults, we carry fourth the genes of the two who did the deed, we nor scientists are able to deduce what brains the product has and in today's world of "get it where you can" and "take it when offered on a plate" anything can happen and by my reckoning (with tongue-in-cheek), no-one can tell whether the child will be a maestro, rocket scientist or street bum, beggar. The act of the rich going in search of children to adopt, go first to the gene pool to ensure that what they are getting, will have some brains...WHAT UTTER RUBBISH, WHAT A BUNCH OF CLANDESTINES! These guys must get a life, stop doing what doctors tell them to do and adopt a child that plainly needs a home,(bunch of @rsehooles). Now that I have vented, The whole point is that we are here from evolution, spawned from apes who got it on with some other neanderthal homoerectus, we stood up from all fours and carried on from there, we lost the flat head and hang nails, invented the wilkinson sword, had a shave and became what we call today...man. (and that all in a nutshell) We are born, then we die.

Hey Spanky

Have you heard about Tatti Valo a 23 year old from South Russia?

10 years ago, during a maths class, Tatti surprised her classmates by spontaneously speaking other languages.

Linguists have identified 120 different arcane languages that Tatti now speaks, including 16th century Chinese, Mongolian, Persian and English.

Now, Spanky, we could say she is a reincarnate, however, I doubt any reincarnate would have been sufficiently well-educated to speak 120 different languages - or anyone else for that matter. Perhaps she's many reincarnates?

Perhaps it all a fake. If not, it sure does give one food for thought.

"How do we know that we have no use of them in the afterlife?"

Quite simple Spanky, we see what happens to them, when people
die and become corpses. When that Tsunami killed so many,
corpses everywhere, the evidence was pretty clear :(

Its one big mess, rotting meat, bacteria take over, no difference
to any other species dying really.

A bloke I knew, killed himself in the outback, strung himself
from a tree. When they found him a week later, the blowflies
had moved in, he had become just another carcass with millions
of maggots chewing him up.

So your afterlife speculation is nothing more then that, based
on the evidence. What we do know however, is that it makes people
feel better, to think there is an afterlife and feeling better is
after all what people like to do. However reality does not
go away, when we close our eyes and wish it would.

The value of who we are in attitudes, behaviours and actions is who we are as the Person. "I am" is the person, the chemistry is merely the venue of our personal mortal existence. We take none of the organic chemistry into our spirit of who we are. The spirit of a person has no chemistry, though disfunctional chemistry may restrict a persons potential or activities. For functions we cannot change as humans, because we are mortal humans we are not responsible for these.

We are not accountable for our body chemistry other than to nourish it and keep it free of avoidable toxins, but we ["I"] are accountable for our attitudes, behaviours and motives. It is for these we are held responsible in the afterlife. Unless we change our bad attitudes and behaviours we do face a bleak future.

"We take none of the organic chemistry into our spirit of who we are."

There are no ghosts in your brain Philo. Your organic chemistry
makes up whom you are. Without it, there is no Philo. But you
are free to imagine ghosts of course, as many do. As I say
"whatever gets you through the night" :) If it keeps you
happy and occupied, so be it. There are plenty of wierd
beliefs, you are not the first lol.

Dickie Hi,
Yep, heard of the story and many others like it, a little indian girl led her grand parents to a box which was buried by by her grandfather when he was just 12 years old! (figure that one out, it sounds quite scary) Ok Philo, you made your point, what with the maggots and other flesh-eating vermin that devour our remains, thanks for that, luckily I had just finished eating steak & kidney with mashed potatoes and peas. Lets come to grips with this chemical story..., it takes chemicals to make a body, it takes chemicals to react against the chemicals that made us, to devour what the original chemicals made, which was us. Now during the time of living with the chemicals which made us, we are prone to other chemicals, which react adversely to the original chemicals, which we call germs and depending on what germ we contracted, during our life time, the damn thing turns around and starts eating us away, this germ we call cancer and in most cases, we don't get away from this germ. Quo vidi? You love 'em, you hate'em, not our choice, we just have to live with them. Maybe we all end up in the other life as a ...you guessed it, a soaring chemical composite in spirit form, gee...can't wait!

I prefer to see people not as a body of chemistry, but of attitudes, actions, behaviours, of wisdom or lack and emotions - it is to these I as a person respond or react. It is to these they remain as an eternal part of history.

The total chemical cells of the body was replaced ever seven years and was merely borrowed and nourished from beast, fish and birds plus a host of other former living organic cell forms. The history of the person however resides in more than their turn over of chemistry, it resides in their attitudes, actions, and wisdom etc all these are the real values of the person. These though performed within the computer chemistry of the body are not merely the programme of the chemistry. There is a free agent operating within the chemistry, and it is that free agent that is outside the chemistry. Even as Yabby is able to evaluate his brain chemistry he as a free agent is also able to change his attitudes - however Yabby does not believe to be independent of his chemistry and is not more than his chemistry. I thought I was conversing with the person called Yabby but it now appears I am merely talking [writing] to a human body.

"There is a free agent operating within the chemistry, and it is that free agent that is outside the chemistry"

Philo, at the end of the day, you are a product of your dna and
your environment. Dna is all about organic chemistry, like it
or not. So your limits depend on your biochemistry.

How much of so called "free will" is really so free, is a complex
but interesting question, which has yet to be fully answered.
Some claim its very much an illusion, but thats a looong debate
lol. Susan Greenfield did some interesting experiments on the
subject. Subjects were asked to push a button at their own
free will. Brain scans were performed while they pushed the
button and those showed that the brain had started to act long
before the person had thought that they were deciding anything.
IMHO we have limited will, its far less free then we thought.
Look around you, people feel compelled to act in certain ways.

Lets take Dickie. Could she really choose to become a mass
axe murderer? Easy to say, harder to do.

So which chemical forces you to throw around your use of the word "lol", Yabby?

My brain chemistry can't work out what you mean. I suspect others don't know either.

Is it short for "laugh out loud?"

I know that if and when I come back, I am neither coming back as a scientist nor a biologist,(lol-lots of laughs, or lol- laugh out loud)
To decipher most of today's abreviations is enough to drive one mad.
So, I think I will "t.o.n." and "t.a.b." and hope the "p.k.t" will not contain "h.o.g". So..."s.i.g.t.u.i." and hopefully see you in the next life, cheers!

It's good to have this Forum where we can debate and discuss. I agree with Philo, but can also see where others are coming from. It is unfortunate that the period of the English Enlightenment, with its subsequent developments of Rationalism, Materialism and Positivism, has made us choose either Science or Religion as mutually exclusive ideologies and dogmas. God is the Great Scientist and Mathematician - all things can eventually be reduced to Mathematics. I know what I mean by this Reductionism, but am hoping that it will contribute to another line of thinking in this debate. Faith and Hope are not mutually exclusive from Science. An article in TIME magazine revealed scientific research which strongly supports the notion that our brains are "hardwired" to believe in "a Supreme Being". This certainly goes beyond the bounds of Darwinian Evolution. I have drafted for my own purposes an essay which "proves" that the statistical probability of Evolution by Natural Selection is so infinitismal that Darwin was wrong. So is Richard Dawkins and Stephen Jay Gould, who have antipathy and antagonism towards each other, even though both are Evolutionists. Disagree, but be kind to each other. The freewill to be kind to each separates us from the beasts.

Hi teddles,
Ever heard of "free speach"? The beast of which you speak, is born within us, it takes nothing to arouse one's inner beast, commonly seen throughout these threads, one only has to skim through them to pick-up sarcasm, wit, dryness, belittlement, slyness and all the other little quirks we are born with. Now and again some half-wit will endeavour to rub one of us up the wrong way and one is guaranteed to get an answer in return they will not like, this we call "tough".
When we depart this world, we hopefully do not take this luggage with us, it's depressing and downright ornery and doubt one will be appreciated if one arrives in "paradise" with an attitude.
So, it's good to "vent" once in a while.

Spanky. Spanky. Spanky. Having been a research assistant to a psychologist since 1992, having taught communications for 10 years (amongst other things), having studied at both TAFE and post-graduate level at university, having been a business executive and a management consultant, having been a lay Christian minister since 1974, and with an IQ of 150 (yes, I am well aware of all the problems associated with the validity, use, and abuse of IQ tests) which places me in approximately the top 2% of the Anglo-Celtic population of First World Countries in terms of general cognitive ability, I have learned to separate how people communicate "through" their "perception filters" and how to use various techniques, including applied semiotics, to get to the substantive content of what it is they are trying to express. I am well aware of the various communication styles posters to this Forum have used, but I don't care. I want to know what they think and how they feel on this issue. The true philosopher and religious practitioner know that this mortal life is a journey, with those obtaining wisdom taking "rest-stops" along the way to consolidate and evaluate what they have learnt, then scaffolding forward from a new foundation. The antitheist and skeptic often ridicule, despise, and attempt to humiliate those with any interest in the supranatural/metaphysical, the "real" atheist chooses, for various reasons, to not want to believe in the supranatural, and the agnostic believes something bigger than ourselves exists, but isn't sure what he/she/it is. Ideology and dogma have no tolerance for different points of view. At least we're all still communicating.

Teddles,teddles, teddles,
G'day mate! Glad to see people do have some things in common, although I am not an assistant, but a full blown clinical psychologist and also teach at Uni. Although not really ever indulged too much into religion, I get by and sometimes, due to my position in life, I not only have to listen to others, but read into every thing that is said to me, even via this thread.
Yes, I have already read you and have deduced quite a lot from your comment. ('nuff said on this matter)
Getting back to the point of reincarnation, previously hovered on in this thread, I think it not a bad omen to consider the prospects of coming back and now and again having a flash of memory as if been in a particular place before. It can however cause mental trauma and eventually, breakdown, if looked into more than need be. The cases I have spoken about in this thread, are in fact cases that I myself have dealt with and there are some real eye openers.
Ever seen someone who continuously scratches behind their ears? I was expecting the person to lift a leg against my leather sofa!

WOW...I'm in hallowed company :) Highly educated folks who have done a lot of study

I studied at Bible college for 3 yrs, included anthropology and inductive study methods.. then went to Borneo as a missionary where I spent 8 yrs or so.. that... was the experience and education of and for a lifetime.

ANECDOTE. When I first arrived, I was sent to a remote village in the highlands for orientation. I didn't have a clue what was going on, and in my innocence and enthusiasm to learn the local lingo, I went to see a teacher who spoke good english. On the way to his house, I noticed a trail of blood... when I arrived there were people milling around. I asked where is 'Tony' and he was pointed out. I went and introduced myself, and asked how to say 'How are you' in his language.
He was gracious and helpful. I later found out the trail of blood was from his wife who had been miscarrying, and who's life hung in the balance. She was medivaced out and survived. I also met some 'Punan' jungle nomads at that time. Quite an experience.

TOPIC. Firstly, Spanky, its wonderful for you to open up this topic, and also your own heart on the matter.
Clearly, we all have this ache in our souls for "what's it all about"? As Solomon said once:

He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

It is better to heed a wise man's rebuke
than to listen to the song of fools.

and

"even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!"


So, there are many voices on this subject, lets try to filter out the fools from the wise.

MESSAGE TO ALL.... Puh-LEASE.. have a read of Ecclesiastes. You will find all your thoughts echo'd there..and a final conclusion.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=25&chapter=1&version=31

My own thought? Heb 12:2
"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith"

Boaz,good to have you back!
Thats what it's all about folks...Faith.
No matter where one gets his or her beliefs, faith in ones self, faith in whatever you are about to endeavour, faith is part of ones own personal achievement, faith lends strength to attain goals you a only dreamed of achieving.
Believe in yourself, strive for the better, this is where we as humans actually make contact with our inner beings, as if talking to yourself, previously looked upon as a sign of insanity.
Would you imagine taking this "faith" with you, when departing? will it be useful on the other side?

The self congratulation society is clearly doing well on this
thread! Speculation about the future, clearly makes people
feel good, so typical of humans, they follow their feelings.

Now clearly not everyone can be right, given the many gods,
many holy books and many other theories being bandied around.
Yet all seem convinced that they are right, evryone else
is wrong.

So how do we judge it? By who is claimed to be smart?

Given that old Osama seems to have outwitted the entire
US army, navy and airforce, all loaded with Xtian true
believers, perhaps his religious beliefs are in fact the
real ones ?

Given the many virgins promised in his heaven, could it
be that many females will land up being houris in their
next life?

Just a thought :)

Hi Yabby,
Self congratulations do not appear by themselves, they are some way or another invoked, like so many of those involved with this thread, comments are put forward and left to the readers own device.
How they decipher the words, how to adopt an understanding is a persons own perogative.
We are blessed with a brain that is able to interpret sarcasm, from something that was possibly meant to be recieved in all innocence, yet taken in the wrong context and before you know it, all hell breaks loose.
Things taken in the wrong context derives from our very own upbringing, the way we look, speak and how we express what we say with facial gestures, all from the gene pool.
Even now, after many years, I find I am iether scowling or squinting or certain mannerisms, exactly the same way my father did and this has only been quite recently and was pointed out to me by my wife.
Some of us don't want to inherit bad habits that a parent had, but one cannot avoid this, it's in your making, it's what makes ones personality. If you are a bad @rse, drunken slob, who sits on his laurels all day to let the wife do all the work and running around, you can bet your life that one or maybe two generations down the line, some family member did exactly the same.
Now get off your @rse and stop reading this nonsense!!

Team... did anyone read Ecclesiastes ? Specially you Spanks... it addresses the kind of questions raised by the very thread itself.

Its truly worth a read.

It's not our faith we take to the 'other side'.. we only 'have' another side due to the events our faith is based on.

No virgins though :) sorrrrry.. Christian heaven was not designed or invented by males preoccupied with sex and promising things to war weary soldiers to make them more willing to die for their prophet.

Nowhere in the old testament is there any hint of parallel about sexual joys in the next life as a reason for fighting hard. Nothing..nada..zippo... zero.

cheers

Thank you Spanky, Yabby and Boaz for your continuing contributions to this thread. I doubt Spanky really "knows" me from their experience as a Clinical Psychologist, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect what they do, what they know, and the value of their experience. And thank you Boaz for encouraging me to reread Ecclesiastes. One of the difficulties of evaluating religious experiences, is that people with some mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia, have auditory and visual hallucinations of Jesus,Satan, Angels, Evil Demons etc., as well as delusions that they are Jesus, or some Biblical Prophet. I have known a dozen or so schizophrenics -- mostly the paranoid kind -- during my life, and this has been a common feature of their psychosis. I have also done a lot of legal research of criminal cases involving mental illness, including schizophrenia, and the consequences of schizophrenic psychosis is often quite disturbing when studied within the context of the violent murders committed by them. That this occurs raises questions about the mind/brain connection, freewill, the nature of the soul, God's Master Plan and how we fit into it, the efficacy of Christ's Redeeming and Atoning Sacrifice, Faith, etc. There are a lot people offering a lot of different answers. There is also a lot of ignorance e.g. Tom Cruise, as a leading Scientologist, claims that he has studied the historical development of Psychiatry, and believes that it originated with NAZI doctors in the Concentration Camps. As Spanky knows, this is not true. The two recent cases - one in the USA and the other in Oz - involving Scientologist parents taking their adult children off their antipsychosis meds which then led to their children committing murders of family members, has had Scientologists stating that they did not advise the parents to take their kids off their meds. However, it is Scientologist dogma that mental illness as defined by the medical profession does not exist, and Psychiatry is evil. On the other hand, Scientologists aren't Christians, and L. Ron Hubbard's teachings are a bit peculiar.

I know I have asked this before, but it still lacks a decent answer. Boaz wrote:

>>No virgins though :) sorrrrry.. Christian heaven was not designed or invented by males preoccupied with sex and promising things to war weary soldiers to make them more willing to die for their prophet.<<

That's a fine introduction to what heaven is not.

But what would be a fair description of the Christian heaven? Do any of the ancient texts provide a clue? Is there any consistency in the way in which heaven is described by the various religious authorities, or is it pretty much "make it up as you go", depending on the circumstances in which you find yourself?

For example, when I was small, the generally accepted (i.e., as communicated to us kids by adults) view of heaven was of angels playing harps on white fluffy clouds, and a general feeling that it was a nice place to be. Hell, on the other hand, was a nasty, dirty place where you burned for eternity, and was definitely to be avoided.

Sometime along the way, the vision was allowed to fade, along with Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy (there was no Easter Bunny down our way, for some strange reason; possibly because we couldn't afford chocolate easter Eggs), but oddly was never properly replaced with an "adult" version.

So, you guys who know about these things, enlighten me please.

What exactly will I miss out on? And is it really as dire in the other place as you would like me to believe? Are the fires of Hell still burning, or will it be more like Geelong on a wet Sunday?

Hi Pericles,
I have one word for you...stigmata,
If one believes heaven is full of angels playing harps sitting on white fluffy clouds, then so be it. When we go and this is what we believe, then let it be so.
I for one, would be looking forward to the big jump if heaven is like this, on the other hand, if hell is described as brimstone and fire for all eternity, I would not choose to go there, unless I was some kind of pyromanical masochist!
This is what life has taught us from young, God is good, Satan is bad.
All things to do with good is God and all things to do with bad is Satan. (sorry for the two being in the same sentence) see...stigmata!
We as humans have ourselves to blame for the pictures we create in our minds for when the curtain comes down.
Maybe we all go to that apparent identical Earth orbiting in the exact path as ours on the other side of the Sun, who knows? They say the other Earth is a mirror image to ours. It is also said that the Earth we live on, is in fact hell and we are here due to our wrong doings in our previous lives. Speculation due to the unknown, this is what we are faced with, until somebody comes up with some hard evidence as to whether an afterlife truly exists...keep believing there are angels with harps on fluffy white clouds and enjoy the life you are living in.

You're going to have to explain that one Spanky.

>>All things to do with good is God and all things to do with bad is Satan. (sorry for the two being in the same sentence) see...stigmata!<<

There are seven definitions in my OED for stigma (pl. stigmata) and none makes sense in the context of your post.

1. A mark made on the skin by burning with a hot iron

2. A mark of disgrace or infamy ("Infamy, infamy! They've all got it infamy": Kenneth Williams)

3. Marks resembling the wounds on the crucified body of Christ

4. A morbid spot, dot or point on the skin

5. Each of the respiratory openings or breathing-pores in insects or other invertebrates

6. That part of a pistil in flowering plants which receives the pollen in impregnation

7. A point whose movement in a certain plane is determined by that of another point in the same plane (Ellis's Stigmatic Geometry)

Help me out here, it's been a confusing enough day without this mystery nagging at me.

PERICLES.. I just went to Wiki and cut/pasted the section below.
So many references, you may check them yourself.

In Orthodox Christianity
The teachings of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox communions regarding the Kingdom of Heaven, or Kingdom of God, is basically taken from scripture, and thus many elements of this belief are held in common with other scriptural faiths and denominations. Some specific descriptions of this Kingdom as given in the canon of scripture include—(this list is by no means comprehensive):

Peaceful Conditions on a New Earth—

Is. 2:2–4, 9:7, 11:6–9, 27:13, 32:17–18, 33:20–21, 60:17–18, Ez. 34:25–28, 37:26, Zech 9:10, Matt. 5:3–5, Rev. 21


Eternal Rule by a Messiah–King

—Ps. 72, Jer 31:33–34, Zech 2:10–11, 8:3, 14:9, Matt 16:27, Rev 21:3–4
an heir of David,

Is. 9:6–7, 11:1–5

Bodily perfection—No hunger, thirst, death, or sickness; a pure language, etc.

– Is. 1:25, 4:4, 33:24, 35:5–6, 49:10, 65:20–24, Jer. 31:12–13, Ez. 34:29, 36:29–30, Micah 4:6–7, Zeph. 3:9–19, Matt 13:43

Ruined cities inhabited by people and flocks of sheep

—Is. 32:14, 61:4–5, Ez. 36:10,33–38, Amos 9:1

SPANKY.. did you (have you ever) read Ecclesiastes? please make an effort, I think if you've never, it will prove most enlightening.

"Nowhere in the old testament is there any hint of parallel about sexual joys in the next life as a reason for fighting hard. Nothing..nada..zippo... zero."

No sex is heaven? What a boring place! You mean its about
sitting down with all those old fart bishops and popes,
whilst the angels play their violins?

Dave Allen was right. Perhaps hell is the place to be,
full of interesting characters, gambling joints, hookers,
comedians, etc. I can't think of anything worse then
spending eternity with those old farts from Rome.

No wonder the muslims are winning the race, their heaven deal
sounds far better and more interesting

Even DB would be so boring, with his constant bible references.

Give me hell please :)

Yabby

The Muslims have got it all wrong. The after-life is strictly for spiritual enlightenment.

Therefore, when one enters ones Nirvana, they must be free from earthly possessions.

That includes the crown jewels!

"The after-life is strictly for spiritual enlightenment."

Dickie, I thought about your post and you have
convinced me.

There is no denying the pleasures of great food, great wine,
great sex, great experiences, etc. So heaven is clearly
here and now! Best we enjoy evry day.

The very thought of giving up all those things, yet having
to navel gaze FOREVER, with a bunch of boring old farts,
can only be described as my version of hell.

So my view that heaven is here and now and that heaven will
continue when the worms save me from such suffering forever,
is clearly the correct one!

I'll let BD and the popes bore you to death, but hey, its forever,
so best you suffer forever whilst I escape all that stuff :)

Oh no! Here we go again...Pericles, Pericles, Pericles..,
Sorry, didn't think you would run for your dictionary.., in response to your question errr...all of the above! My apologiese, it WAS written in the wrong context, but you know what I mean.

Yabby, your comments on the muslim nation will inadvertantly have some repercussions, so be ready!
As far as the pope is concerned, he knows where he's going and probably looking forward to it! (or trying to make himself believe he knows where he's going)

Boaz, I will indeed read Ecclesiastes, although I fear that it may go off track and veer off the question "is this it and where to now" not all of us think of the other option of going to heaven.
There are many questions unanswered and cannot be found in the good book, I suppose this depends on how one interprets its passages.

Hi Dickie,
Earthly possessions,crown jewels? Yep, they and a lot of other nations like the Egyptians, like to take earthly possessions with them for the afterlife. They seem to be quite adamant that there is indeed an afterlife.

>>it WAS written in the wrong context, but you know what I mean<<

Well actually, Spanky, I don't.

Which is why I asked the question.

What were you trying to say? It might help if you explained it without using the word "stigmata".

And you might also leave out the exclamation mark, which usually indicates that the particular word or phrase is important.

Yabby,
For all we know, the afterlife may contain a miriad of all our imaginations, it may be a place made up of all our wishes, in which case, may contain bad ones also.
I for one could not imagine the other side being angels playing in a rock band on fluffy white clouds looking down on strip joints, bars and the like, with toe tapping simple folk like pericles looking on, it just doesn't gel somehow, but then again who are we to judge?

Pericles, the point I was trying to make, seeing that you have nothing better to persue in life, was the fact of us humans making a bigger deal out of something, like when something has a "stigma" attached to it, it means it has become that way, without us even trying, like this thing you have about the mis-use of the word "stigma", if you have a better word to use in the right context, then please correct me, if not, get yourself a better dictionary, like an oxford and lets get back to being adults and back to the topic of this thread. Stigma, stigmata, stigmatism, stigmatoid, stigitup your @..., makes no difference to me.

SPANKY....

trust me please.. Ecclesiasties is 'something else' :) I mean.. really.

I think it should be required reading for every human being.

Yabby.. it is only a carnal mind which cannot conceive of a heaven without sex.
To be slightly vulgar.. the most beautiful moments I have in life are AFTER my 'energies' have been spent, and it is far from my mind.

If 'eat drink and be merry' is where you think its at.. oh..wait.. you are not the first :) gee..WHo said that before..... hmmmm
hang on...I'll find it..

aah...here it is :) Ecclesiastes 2:24.....

"A man can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work."

But of course, you have to read the whole book to see where Solomon is coming from there :)

Tease tease.....

Dickie,Yabby,
The point of other nations, like the muslims, may have a similer belief as the Egyptians, we all know the Egyptians have been persuing possible afterlife for thousands of years and there may be something there, for them to continue with this for so long, even till today.
We continue to hear stories of (dare I say it) ghosts, that try to contact us "from the other side" is there something in this perhaps?

I am a firm believer that we don't just die and go away, there are way too many unknowns on this topic.
Another side to this is the point of well known people, met with unfortunate accidents at the time where they have reached a stage where they can no longer escape the public eye. Are they swept off to some island in the middle of nowhere?, making the public believe they have met with their demise? Elvis, John Denver, and the rest, all at the height of their careers. How many people have disappeared without a trace and for what reason, where did they go? The list of disappearing people runs in the tens of millions, no explanations, just missing, is there a higher power watching us and when it suits them, are we just whisked off, never to be seen again? Strange.

Spanky, you started this thread so I suppose you can take it in any direction that takes your fancy.

But words are supposed to carry some meaning.

You answered my question "what would be a fair description of the Christian heaven?" with the answer "I have one word for you...stigmata".

I was intrigued, so I looked in my dictionary (the OED is in fact the Oxford English Dictionary; the complete one) and in the context you used it, clearly 'stigmata' makes no sense.

So I asked you to clarify, that's all.

There's no need to get your knickers in a twist. How am I supposed to guess what you meant?

Boaz, all except one of your "examples" are from the old testament, and presumably therefore pre-date Christianity. Your sole NT example says "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their father", which as descriptions of heavenly bliss go, is a fraction short on detail.

So unfortunately my question still stands.

If "heaven" is some kind of mental gymnastics in the here-and-now, that's fine. Just say so and we can move on.

"If "heaven" is some kind of mental gymnastics in the here-and-now, that's fine. Just say so and we can move on."

Sounds to me like its the ultimate in good marketing! Flog
em a dream, flog em hope that they won't really die, flog em
fear if they don't toe the line. You'll never have to ever
deliver anything other then satisfy peoples emotional needs,
people will pour in the doors and deliver you money, power,
prestige, with some religions and cults even sex.

As my old uncle wisely said, "for every sucker that dies,
another ten are born"

Beautifully put, Yabby.

G'day Pericles,
Heaven is percieved as a place of happiness, peace and a feeling of enlightenment together love and living in absolute harmony.
If the good book reflects this, there must have been a reason for it to have been written, but without trying to involve religion here, the fact remains that the good book is in fact saying (in so many words) if one is bad, one burns in hell and the good go to heaven.
What happens if this is the other way around? We all have one heck of a surprise coming. The word I am looking for, describes what the bible has become to us humans. Its like a preacher, he enters the room and what do you get?.. dead silence or all of ones good points come to the fore. One goes to church, we (or we used to) put on a suit and this is why I used the word "stigma" Church, Religion,Pastor,
Reverend, R.H. whoever whatsisname, they make there presence, we experience a... (stigma?)

Yabby and Pericles.

There is not a chapter in the Bible called 'Heaven'.

But the OT has much about the 'nature' of it. (Lion lay down with the lamb...etc)

Rev 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.
7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Sobering thoughts.

Hey Boaz

I prefer the Buddhist belief of Karma and reincarnation. Buddhists do not threaten their fellow humans with an eternity of a "fiery lake of burning sulfur."

Even Christian churches now rarely allude to the Christian God's threat of fire and brimstone. This is a result of parishes losing their attendee numbers, and of evolved human enlightenment where past parishioners' now realise that Christianity is flawed - even fraudulent!

Do not forget Boaz that the Christians promoted the slaughters and destruction of Rome, North Africa, Palestine, Syria, Jerusalem, Constantinople. Then you have a history of Christians murdering Christians and the incineration of heretics.

Paul, I believe, wrote the oldest surviving Christian texts though he had never seen the earthly Jesus.

Then in more recent times we've witnessed the slaughter of the Irish - Protestants against Catholics. What about the "charming" Hitler, a Christian?

And again, the unevolved, fundamentalist Muslim is "hell-bent" on blowing up the infidels in the name of Allah and his scriptures with the promise of a few hundred virgins in the after-life. They remain in the middle ages, duped by the radical clerics with a few insidious politics thrown in for good measure. Even worse, they continue to kill each other!

Bibles promote wars and destruction.

The most illogical part is that bibles were written by mere earthlings, hell-bent on duping and controlling the uneducated masses. But now we're on to them, hey?

In fact, may I say it? I'd even prefer Yabby's hypothesis of the worms cleaning up the environment and having a tea party over some poor critter's broken and abused bodily remnants!

Though, the mystery remains, can worms eat the spirit, if there is one?

Interesting, Boaz.

Are we in "literally true" territory here, or are we in the land of metaphor?

You have a habit of picking and choosing, you see, and it is never immediately apparent which one is in play at any one point in time.

Except for the Qur'an, of course, which you insist is not only literally true, but whose instructions are strictly adhered to by every Muslim.

So which is it this time?

Who is "speaking" here, by the way? I'm not familiar with the context of Revelations. But from the manner in which the topic is addressed, it would appear to be some form of prophecy - or did he literally see "a new heaven and a new earth".

If so, the part about the burning in the fiery pit must also be taken literally, I guess.

I hate to say it, but don't you find it all a little far-fetched?

Isn't it far more likely that the book was written in the same style, and with the same intent, as the ubiquitous TV Evangelist, simply in order to exert control over more... suggestible minds?

The whole thing is a puzzle. From the geography - why there, and not in a more educated part of the world to ensure a better continuity of written evidence? - to the chronology - why then, and not at a time when communications had improved sufficiently to ensure the word was efficiently promulgated?

As I have said before, there are vastly more questions than answers. In fact each answer simply illuminates how little we actually know, and opens the way for another round of questions.

But I guess at least it may be safely said that no-one actually has a clue what heaven or hell are all about. Even the people who use them as carrot-and-stick to get people's attention.

Speaking of tea parties reminds me of a conversation I had some years ago with a nun. She had dedicated an entire life-time to her religious order, doing good.

Finally, as an old woman and saving for many years from a small stipend and gifts from her family, she took herself off to see the world, living frugally and staying mainly in youth hostels and not disclosing she was a "religious."

At a tea party in her honour, and after perusing many photographs of her travels I asked:

"Sister, what did you think of all the magnificent churches in Italy?"

"Ooh", she said in her Irish accent. "I wouldn't go into those churches. They were all built on poor people's money!"

Interesting topic!
The only afterlife we can be sure of is that eventually, we will all be recycled and be part of other life forms. Our atoms will never leave the Universe; forever they will be recycled and perhaps become stardust.

As an atheist (at least until someone can prove to me that there is a god at which point I will become a believer) I believe that people have no soul that is separate from the physical body.
When the brain dies, that’s it.
Hell and heaven exist only in people’s minds. It is probably pacifying for some to believe that there is another life after this one, but there is no evidence of it at all.
I am happy with being recycled in the same way all my shedded dead (yet very well moisturised) skin and hair cells and nails have been recycled since I was born.

In fact, our whole body is being gradually replaced every so many years. The cells that make up your body right now didn’t even exist about ten or so years ago- your body has slowly replaced itself. Are the dead cells which you lost suffering in any way because they haven’t gone to heaven? No… they just became stardust or dust mite food. The same will happen with all of our cells when we die; we won’t suffer or even realise it when all our cells will die at the same time instead of gradually, including our brain cells. There is no ‘soul’ that has a life without our physical brain.
Anyway, the best way to guarantee an afterlife for much of your body is to donate your organs.

Spanky, it would be fascinating to find out the truth about déjà vu etc.

About the point on freezing bodies, I can only say that healthy babies have been born from frozen embryos so it might indeed be possible to ‘resurrect’ someone this way.

Continued

About near death experiences, these experiences can be artificially induced by stimulating certain regions in the brain. Perhaps certain hormones or chemicals are produced by the brain that will stimulate these brain cells when we die, or it’s a lack of oxygen or something. I’m sure there is a good scientific explanation for it.

Spanky said: “I've heard of people requesting to be buried with some money in their coffins, to spend in their afterlife.” Oh that’s hilarious- well the Egyptians did the same, didn’t they, taking all their possessions into their tombs. Shame that their brain got ripped out before mummification; it would have come in handy in a next life.

I wonder if burried money goes to heaven… perhaps dirty money will go to hell, whereas laundered money gets into heaven, right?

I really hope that there is no heaven- it seems like a very boring place to be, with nothing to do for eternity and sit around forever with people like Abbott and Pyne.

BOAZ, (or Philo, or anyone with knowledge of the Bible) excuse my ignorance but is Hell being mentioned somewhere in the Bible or was it made up by people after the Bible was written?

Celivia,
The fact is hell is not mentioned once in the Old Testament as Catholics believe. In the OT the Hebrew sheol is used exclusively to refer to the grave. Where the Hebrew word sheol is translated into English hell it means the grave - the place of the dead. It has no reference to an afterlife. The Hebrews had no belief in an afterlife unlike the Egyptians.

Jesus used the term Gehanna a place in the valey of Hinnon which was an ever burning waste disposal area outside Jerusalem. Jesus use of the idea of casting into gehanna has more to do with discarding evil character, behaviour and attitudes characterised as garbage - waste. The Kingdom of righteousness will prevail, and evil characters will be destroyed.

In Matthew 11: 23 Jesus uses the Greek word hades when addressing the mission of the Church that the current evil forces of hades would not prevail. Hades was a Greek view of the afterlife.

Until westerner atheists can see people as not merely their body of natural chemistry, but recognise people are essentially their attitudes, character, behaviours, wisdom understanding etc they will not understand spiritual reality. The kingdom of heaven and hell operate in these dimensions, not in some field of organic chemistry. Our body is merely the venue of the activity of one's mortal life. What is esentially the person has played a continuing part in the living history of humanity.

Philo, the dna that created me, is pure organic chemistry,
no ghosts or spirits in sight anywhere. Just like all other
beings, of all other species.

Frankly, once I fall off the proverbial perch, I really
could not give a rats arse as to what happens to my
remains, as I won't be around to know.

I am far more concerned with suffering of humans and
other species, in this world, fully concious. When warped
religious dogma surfaces, like Catholic dogma that suffering
is noble, then I have a problem.

If Catholics want to suffer, well good luck to them.
They should have no right however, to inflict that dogma
onto the rest of us. Thats exactly what they are doing,
in wanting to deny people the right to euthanasia.

Let them suffer all they want, but please don't enforce
such nonsense on the rest of us.

You know what?
From reading threads like Yabby's, how do we know that when we "kick the can", that we can no longer feel pain? It's not been proven, for all we know, those that get cremated spend there time in the other life, still burning!
The same goes with burial, are we suffocating for all eternity on the other side?

Yabby,
Your personal world view is a total contradiction. You say you are about stopping pain - your answer - euthanise. Then say there is no life after death - euthanise. It that your answer to life? You said, "When warped religious dogma surfaces, like Catholic dogma that suffering is noble, then I have a problem." Your thesis is that suffering Pain is the dogma of the Catholics. Get real! Pain is part of being alive; you either live and manage with good spirit, or face your answer - death. I'd rather live with my pain than die. It reminds me of my mortality so I am able to sympathise with those that suffer - that's noble.

We all suffer pain it is a living mechanism that lets us know we have injury or damage to our bodies. We cannot escape pain. It is better to endure it, find a cure to subdue it than your alternative - euthanise. You are espousing the cult of death as the answer to anything that suffers pain. I might point out - Catholics manage hospitals and palitave care because they care about people that suffer pain. Your answer does not offer care and pain management - "Kill them so they no longer exist". Strange!

You said, "no ghosts or spirits in sight anywhere". I say your spirit has no material or dna substance so stop looking for ghosts as though they have form. I say show me the substance of your love that is transferred that others feel. That is your spirit - but I forgot "you have no spirit" - then you do not obviously demonstrate a compassionate spirit to Catholics. By this quote; "Let them suffer all they want, but please don't enforce such nonsense on the rest of us". I thought they too were human. Small minded! You cannot see pain as part of living and want to euthanise anyone who suffers pain so that they are no longer. Noble people are able to live with pain and not whine and complain about Catholic dogma and want to commit suicide.

Philo, you are free to hang on until your last breath and so you
should be, but many others are not so silly and choose differently.
Why whould religious nuts have the right to deny them that
choice?

There are good reasons as to why a whole lot of Aussies are
off to Mexico, to buy their stash of Nembutal and smuggle it
back into this country. They want as least as many options as
even their dogs have.

Sure the Catholic Church runs hospitals, but so do many
large corporations. Its a very profitable business these
days, if you ever checked what they charge per day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_of_the_flesh

Suffering for your sins is indeed condsidered noble.
Umm, not me lol. I'll let others walk around with
little whips, beating themselves.

Yup we all suffer at some point, so being compassionate
means giving others the choice to minimise it, not forcing
them to endure it. That should be their choice.

I feel the love that my dogs have for me. They must
be full of "spirit" too :)

"Noble people are able to live with pain"

Ah, so there you go Philo, you seem to agree with the
Catholics!

Let people decide for themselves how noble they want to
be, not force your wierd dogma on the rest of us.

Philo, thank you for explaining. My mother was raised a Catholic and although she later became non-religious, she nevertheless finds it hard to let go of the idea of Hell; perhaps it will help her to know that hell wasn’t even mentioned in the Bible (OT)in the way she thinks of hell.

What many theists don’t understand is that atheists can experience spirituality without having faith in a god. Feeling awed by the beauty of nature is possible, and miracles of nature do not disappear without faith.

I do not see people merely as their body and recognise that people are their character and behaviour (it could be called 'spirit')- I merely believe that a god has nothing to do with it and that our 'spirit' will end when our body dies.
My spirituality and that of other atheists is not based on faith.

Everything theists say about heaven, hell and about gods is just faith; none of it is backed up by evidence.
If people tell me they have seen flying saucers above the Sydney Harbour Bridge, I wouldn’t mind believing it if only they show me convincing evidence. I'd like those people who’ve claimed to have seen these saucers to undergo a psychiatric evaluation, pass some kind of sanity test as well.

I think many theists would agree that it would be rather silly to accept, without evidence, what anyone claims to be true.

I am not ‘against’ believing in gods, I haven’t even consciously chosen to not believe in a god; I just don’t and I never have.
Theists really should be able to understand why atheists do not believe in a god or heaven or hell because they, themselves do not believe in the gods of others and of other civilisations’ concepts of what afterlife involves.

Euthanasia is a sensitive topic- and where there is effective pain relief or chance of healing, euthanasia should not be used as an option. But I find it quite cruel to deny sufferers of a painful terminal illness a quicker and kinder way out of life if they want that.

I agree totally, If a person is suffering some incurable desease and enduring pain far beyond the assistance of medication, let them at least go to the afterlife with some dignity. Euthenasia is and will be the way to go. A close relative should be given the legal right to say: "it's time.. let him/her go".
There is no use in sustaining life, if there is no life left to sustain.