Dear ttbn,

Not a good idea. That would be lowering the bar quite
a bit. They already speak more than on language -
so learning another as history has shown has not been
a problem in the past. Migrants and refugees have
always excelled at institutions of learning and lead the
way in this country. However assigning them to people
such as yourself - Nah. what would they possibly learn
from you? Seeing the world in very rigid and stereotypical
terms? conformity, intolerance, and insecurity?
Not a good idea.

cont'd ...

Dear ttbn,

I don't agree with your dismal picture of this country.
I prefer Peter Costello's version. He writes in his
memoirs:

"...because we are a young country our greatest glories
are still in front of us. We have been served well as a
country. Although we have had failures and although we
have not on every occasion lived up to the best practice,
the Australian achievement - political, economic, and in
lifestyle - is one of the great successes of the world.
And there is still plenty more ... in the years which lie
ahead... I acknowledge the debt to all those that went
before that made this country what it has become. A
reminder to those who will take us into our future: there
are still many glories to be won in every sphere of life ..."

Hear, hear.

cont'd ...

Dear ttbn,

You asked about the contribution of my parents to
Australia? The following link explains in fuller
detail the contributions to Australia made by
Lithuanians and the Lithuanian communities of which
my parents were such a vital and important part.
There is an entire chapter there on the contributions
made. I hope this will suffice for you:

eprints.utas.edu.au/4286/1/4286.pdf

Dear Joe,

Well, I did not expect you to agree, given that you already objected to it in your initial post, but in the least I was hoping that you may understand the essence of my suggestion and I think you didn't. Two and a half classes of citizenship already exist in Australia today, these are citizens, permanent residents and New-Zealanders: My idea is to further expand and diversify those classes, in both directions - lesser commitment and greater commitment. To some extent, this only reflects and acknowledges the existing, yet informal Australian reality.

I never suggested that classes of citizenship should be divided along ethnic/aboriginality lines. The very question, "...would you impose similar or different privileges and obligations..." indicates that you failed to understand my suggestion: I will not impose anything on anyone. Rather, those who so wish will voluntarily accept a more comprehensive package of privileges and obligations; while others may only accept a minimal package.

Every Australian-born should be able to be admitted to all rungs of citizenship, including the innermost, while immigrants would only be admitted to some middle-rung, then they will have to prove themselves if they want to join the inner rungs (which would for example entitle them to vote, to stand for elections and to receive welfare). Also, everyone may elect to move to an outer rung, but cannot subsequently be automatically re-admitted into inner rungs and would then need to prove themselves if they so wish.

Relating to the examples you provided, EVERYONE, including even in the minimal outermost rung of citizenship, must respect the rights of women of the inner rungs, may not spear anyone of the inner rungs (regardless whether any of them is indigenous or otherwise) or marry a minor of the inner rungs. The only place where such things may occur, is exclusively among those who explicitly elected to belong to the outermost rung, with the least amount of obligations and the least amount of privileges.

I do not expect you to agree, but I do hope that now you understand what I am suggesting.

Foxy,

Sorry that I didn't put my comments into a single post. I seem to have caused you problems with keeping up.

For your first response starting “Not a good idea” I have say that I have never before met anybody who cannot identify sarcasm. You are the first. Comes with extreme naivety and innocence, I suppose.

Then we have your announcement that: “Migrants and refugees have always excelled at institutions of learning and lead the way in this country.” Pardon? Seriously? All migrants? If you had some migrants you might have had some credibility, but you have made a very wild, unsubstantiated statement about people, most of whom you would not know. The most useful, beneficial immigrants to Australia were those who worked on schemes like Snowy Mountains hydro etc. They struggled to learn English. Good people most of them; 'excelling in institutions and leading the way' – no way!

Perhaps your parents were geniuses we should all know about, and you think that all migrants are like them?

As for your remark about 'assignees' not learning anything from me: well that's the whole idea isn't; I need these migrants to teach me stuff? :)

And, your “I don't agree with (my) dismal picture of this country.” Surely, even an old Lefty like you would agree that your disagreement does not necessarily invalidate my statement. It would not be over-confident of me to think that most Australians (other than your idealogical mates, of course) would agree with me 100%. And, Peter Costello? You are getting desperate when you start looking to a Right winger to cover your back!

Honestly, I don't care what your parents did or didn't do. I hope they were good parents and decent people. But, fobbing me off with references to Lithuanian 'communities' is pretty weak. The very word 'communities' highlights division and isolation. Never mind. I see this thread is right on the bottom, and will probably be gone tomorrow, saving you from coming up with the goods yet again.

Yuyutsu,,

I'm not defending Joe, who has turned out to be a great disappointment to me, but there are no 'classes' of citizens in Australia. Permanent residents are not citizens, nor are New Zealanders unless they have been naturalised.

My objection to citizens not born in Australia becoming politicians is, I believe, perfectly reasonable, and is accepted partly in the U.S. Where no foreign born citizen can ever be president.

However, I find your idea repugnant. You often have ideas that are very, very strange to me, but you are well overboard on this one.

I will say this: there should be no such category as 'permanent resident'. If you are not good enough to be a citizen, or do not wish to be a citizen, you should piss off.

New Zealanders should piss off anyway. The have a very insulting outlook on Australia and Australians.