I am too, leoj.

<<I am happy for all to have their own thinking ... As long as no-one is being hurt or harm being done.>>

The problem is that there is always harm being done to some extent. It’s not just Jihadists, Islamists, or the ACL. Even the most casual Church-goer lends their passive support to the above.

I could list a lot of damaging effects that religion has in Australia, but we wouldn’t even be able to agree that much of it was damaging to begin with, so there’s little point in going there unless we both feel like being locked into a lengthy debate that would never end. And besides, I’ve had that debate ad nauseam.

Yes, yes, the charity organisations. I know. I’ve been there many times, too. I will say, though, that the banner which religion provides charitable people to organise under is a bonus aspect of it. But it’s arguably a small bonus, given the lost revenue in tax and the social harm that religions cause.

<<I also know you to have rejected Catholicism and you have your reasons for that. Fair enough.>>

It was actually a Protestant denomination: Lutheran. I don’t think there’s any such thing as a former-Catholic that doesn’t still consider themselves to be a Catholic. But, anyway…

<<What is most often lost in the easy, ritualist, mud-slinging against 'theists' and 'religion' is that everyone believes.>>

I don’t think anyone denies that we all ‘believe’. Not all beliefs are equal, however.

<<The difference where runner and others are concerned is that their understanding and the way they seek personal transcendence are 'billboarded', made largely obvious by their declared preference for a set of beliefs.>>

Yes (although I don’t know what YOU mean by “personal transcendence”), but you’re glossing over the fact that some belief systems and worldviews are more rational and justifiable than others. They’re not all equal. Some clearly align with reality better than others, and some approach reality in a more rational way than others.

I, personally, have always advocated for a scientific-sceptic approach to everything.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Skepticism#Scientific_and_methodological_skepticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Scientific_skepticism

Leoj,

Full marks. Personal faith and belief can - and perhaps should, these days - be separated form the organised 'Church'. The church hierarchy is infested with amateur politicians, jockeying for relevance - hence the Islamic-like interference in politics and mouthing off about every subject there is.

The fall- off of attendances at churches does not mean people have lost their faith, beliefs and values; it means that people have had enough of ministers, priests chuntering away about sectarian issues from the pulpit, instead of attending to the spiritual needs of their flocks.

Protestant preachers, mainly, have become almost like the imams in mosques, yabbering away about things that they know nothing about, and stirring up Left wing lunatics.

I wouldn't say "full marks", ttbn. leoj failed to acknowledge that not all beliefs are equal.

Or perhaps you could enlighten us all as to why that's not relevant or important?

No?

Didn't think so.

Hi Joe,
I was given an Easter egg this morning, 'Red Tulip', was a good brand of chocolates once, the thing tasted a bit salty to me, not made from A grade chocolate, paying for the nice wrapping, and the Halal certification, does helal involve the addition of too much salt to the mix? Seem like it.

ttbn, I never said I knew the Pope, he probably knows me from reading my posts on the forum. I said I once met the Patriarch of Jerusalem, I did say he was a nice bloke, and that was only based on the fact he didn't hit me over the head with his staff at the time, although he probably wished he did. As for Kim Jong-un of North Korea I said; I don't think he is a nice bloke, and I think even less of him, since he wrote back and said "Who is this crazy wombat!"

Leoj, then are you a non practicing member of a disorganized religion? Hansonism could be described as a disorganized religion.

AJ, thank god for that. When I was in the third grade at Catholic school, good Sister Mary, an old Irish nun, every bit her years of 85, a sister of the order of mercy, not that she showed much mercy, particularly to petulant 9 year old boys named Paul. Sister Mary told us, on more than one occasion "The only thing worse than atheists and pagans, are Protestants!" She was particularly down on those Irish Protestants, seems they were an extra bad bunch who were beyond salvation. Sister was always having us pray for the souls of the atheists, pagans and the Holy Father in Rome, she never did say ehat his problem was, but not for the followers of Martin Luther, particularly the Irish ones. It all seemed right and proper to me at the time.

Hi Paul,

Interesting way to think: "Leoj, then are you a non practicing member of a disorganized religion? Hansonism could be described as a disorganized religion."

Just to get in front of your logic: I drive a four-wheeled vehicle. A Rolls-Royce is a four-wheeled vehicle. Would you accuse me of betraying my class roots and driving a Rolls-Royce ? Actually my old Calais VN is indeed a four-wheeled vehicle. But a Rolls-Royce, it's not.

And many people would suggest that, since everybody has some version of religious belief, even if they don't think so, and to have unarticulated thoughts means you're a bit disorganised, therefore many of us inadvertently adhere to a 'disorganised religion'. But not all of us are Hansonites :)

Just nit-picking :)

Joe

A fascinating insight into Catholic thought there, Paul1405.

I had never really had anything much at all to do with Catholicism. All I knew is that they were worshipping God the wrong way. Their salvation-through-deeds (as opposed to the Protestant salvation-through-gullibility) was particularly heretical to me. And I was quick to blame their incorrect way of believing in God on the child sex abuse when it really started to come to light in the mid-90s. Even to this day, the fact that they refer to a service as “mass” irritates me.

It’s not physics, damn it!

Did you ever identify as a Catholic? The reason I ask is because, while the theological differences between the two factions of Christianity no longer interests me, to this day I am still fascinated by the insistence of former Catholics to retain the ‘Catholic’ label. Mafia bosses will happily order concrete boots for a former employee of theirs before breakfast and be in mass by 9:00. Heck, I know a guy who is gay and a staunch atheist, but he’ll be Catholic to the day he dies, dagnabbit!

It's bizarre!