"Interpol Secretary General Ronald Noble said today the U.S. and the rest of the democratic world is at a security crossroads in the wake of last month’s deadly al-Shabab attack at a shopping mall in Nairobi, Kenya – and suggested an answer could be in arming civilians.
In an exclusive interview with ABC News, Noble said there are really only two choices for protecting open societies from attacks like the one on Westgate mall where so-called “soft targets” are hit: either create secure perimeters around the locations or allow civilians to carry their own guns to protect themselves...."

Of course it's old news (2013) but the bloke might have a point.

Dear Is Mise,

Yes you're absolutely right.

We have three choices.

1) Convert them.

2) Deport them.

3) Get a gun and shoot them.

Problem solved!

Foxy, if you don't have a solution to offer, it is not really very constructive to sling off at those who are prepared to try to offer one. The 3 options you put down may be the ONLY choices available.

I'm surprised at you.

Dear Hassie,

I'm surprised at you taking my facetious
remarks so seriously.

cont'd ...

We have the chance, to turn the pages over
We can write what we want to write
We gotta make ends meet, before we get much older

We're all someone's daughter
We're all someone's son
How long can we look at each other
Down the barrel of a gun?

You're the voice, try and understand it
Make a noise and make it clear
Oh-wo-wo-wo, Oh-wo-wo-wo
We're not gonna sit in silence
We're not gonna live in fear
Oh-wo-wo-wo-wo, Oh-wo-wo-wo ...

The first choice is not to allow 'diversity' and political cynicism, opportunism and corruption, to inappropriately sway and dominate immigration policy.

As a child I remember Italian family friends being utterly confused and exasperated by Australian immigration officials who despite warnings form Italian police, were so casual and ignorant to import migrant groups from locales and families that were notorious with Italian authorities and Italian people for their longstanding Mafia connections, or for other noxious traditions. Italian friends said 'but there are plenty of good people, why take them?'

Italian authorities regularly complain that Australian authorities refuse to share intel. An immigration minister allowed a notorious and very dangerous Mafia head in against the pleading of Italian police.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/crime-fighter-lashes-vanstones-visa-20090308-8sfu.html

Labor had their Al Grassby, and other political connections with crime and internationally contentious figures under the Whitlam government,
http://www.crikey.com.au/2005/05/09/al-grassbys-double-dirty-life/
Australia is a stronghold for the nastiest of Italian Mafia, the Calabrian Mafia.

Over the years both sides of the federal Parliament and State and Territory politicians were adamant that there was no evidence whatsoever of emerging criminal gangs in Australia. Reports by brave journalists were pooh, poohed and where the journalist continued, both he and his family were subjected to pressure and abuse and his career and marriage wrecked.

The purpose of this example is to surface the real problem, which is the sacred cow of immigration, the politically convenient agreement of the major political parties that censors and buries any criticism of poor policy and mistakes. That and the pursuit of a 'Big Australia', along with the selfish over-exploitation of resources now and leaving nothing for generations to come.

"...allow civilians to carry their own guns to protect themselves..."

To make this effective, enough citizens would have to carry guns everywhere (church, shopping centre etc.) and be trained to use them.

Some problems:
1. it's mostly women with kids who go to shopping centres, so if we rule out kids, are we planning to arm and train women - mothers? OAPs?
2. Let's assume that 5 terrorists attack a shopping centre where there are 100 armed civilians, men and woman. That's 105 guns minimum. The terrorists open fire, the 100 armed shoppers return fire. Will the death rate be higher or lower than if the shoppers were unarmed?
3. What happens with all those guns at home, more kids' accidents, more suicides, more murders? What is the cost benefit: how many regular/routine accident / suicide lives are worth sacrificing to (maybe) saving a few lives in rarer/occasional terrorist attack?

The USA gives us a good model for what happens when guns are widespread in the civilian population. However I cannot think of an example there where armed civilians prevented or minimised a terrorist attack.

So what to do. Certainly better security (barriers, trained armed guards) at places known to be targeted. I was interested to see, on a trip to (a stable part of)the Philippines, men with machine guns guarding external ATMs, who greeted you politely 'good morning, ma'am'. when you took some money out. On the other hand, many buildings had a sign at the door: 'Please leave your gun at the door'.

The trouble with deciding to protect 'soft targets' is that they cease to be soft. So the dedicated terrorist moves to other unprotected 'soft targets'.

eg previously planes themslves were soft targets. So enhanced checking was done to make them 'unsoft'. So the terrorists moved to attacking the terminals themsleves. So security was expanded to including checking at the terminal entrances. So the terrorists moved to attacking those outside the terminals. Some US airports now expand checking to cover those trying to get within cooee of the airport precincts. An ever increasing security perimeter.

Why not cut to the chase and just expand the security perimeter to where it always should have been - the national borders.

_____________________________________

"We're all someone's daughter
We're all someone's son"

The trouble is that some of 'us' don't see daughters, they see future sex slaves and/or third wives. Some of 'us' would prefer that didn't eventuate.

Hey Cossomby,
I like arguing the Pro's and Con's.

More Problems:
"1. it's mostly women with kids who go to shopping centres, so if we rule out kids, are we planning to arm and train women - mothers? OAPs?"

What happens when you arm some mums but not others or some OAP's and not others?
More will also want to be armed "Why should she be able to protect her kids and I can't protect mine"; and more who object "Why are those types of people premitted to have firearms?"
It's a can of worms.

"2. Let's assume that 5 terrorists attack a shopping centre where there are 100 armed civilians, men and woman. That's 105 guns minimum. The terrorists open fire, the 100 armed shoppers return fire. Will the death rate be higher or lower than if the shoppers were unarmed?"

Well that's the point isn't it.
Armed terrorists are going to think twice before doing that if they know everyone else is armed.
But lets say they did; Don't you think those future said victims deserved a sporting chance to defend themselves?
That they should not just be fish in a barrel for some other angry nutcracker with a crazed ideology?
That they could have a chance to take out their executioners before they or others get killed?

If not, are we just saying 'society accepts these deaths' as the price we pay for what you outlined as preventing in item '3'.

Regards your summary, your answer has it's 'con's' too because that's essentially a 'police state'.
The left force immigration and civil unrest and the response is the justification to become a total surveillance and police state sold to as as 'being necessary to protect us'.

They created the problem that justified the response; because the response was what they really sought all along.

Dear Is Mise,

Still intent on importing the US gun culture into this country. Are we not American enough for you already?

Yuo quoted Noble as saying;

"there are really only two choices for protecting open societies from attacks like the one on Westgate mall where so-called “soft targets” are hit: either create secure perimeters around the locations or allow civilians to carry their own guns to protect themselves"

Well there is of course another choice and we have employed it to great effect in this country, it is called gun control.

You continue to pine for the Wild West, seriously mate it is time to move.

As much as I would really lament the day we all had to carry a F/A in order to protect ourselves, our families and close friends from some deadly ad hoc terrorist incident. It may well happen sooner than we think?

Perhaps as news of such events make their way into our daily media with more regularity, governments may have no other viable option but to take the extreme measures of permitting the carriage of a personal F/A for protection? Thank goodness I'll be dead before that happens!

Imagine if you will, most adult men and women, while leisurely walking about doing their shopping, banking or even just socialising, but just minding their business...? Well concealed beneath their nice suits, dresses or even casual jeans and shorts, those who wish to, are packing a loaded gun? What a hell of a world in which to live, and bring up kids? You're going out front door shopping with your wife, '...got the grocery list; the car keys; oh don't forget the .357 magnum, it's in your shoulder rig, dear...'!

AC: I take note of your comments.

Perhaps I should have added, in my supermarket hypothetical, that the civilians with guns will inevitably be less well trained than terrorists or professionals such as police. As a result, in such a shoot-out, collateral damage from civilians with guns is more likely to be other civilians, not the terrorists themselves. So rethinking my example: 5 armed terrorists, 100 armed but inexperienced civilians, plus 150 unarmed civilians, a large proportion kids. I predict that the armed civilians are far more likely to kill/wound both armed and unarmed civilians than they are to kill/wound the terrorists. Basically it's a question of numbers. In a crowd of 255 people, 105 people with guns (100 of them inexperienced, and so more likely to shoot wildly in panic that carefully target the terrorists, indeed are likely to mistake other civilians with guns for terrorists) will kill more than 5 people with guns.

Deaths from terrorist attacks in western countries are tiny compared with middle eastern and Africa. We already accept significantly much higher death rates in traffic accidents as a price to pay for the benefits of easy, personal road travel (recognising efforts to reduce the toll). Perhaps what is different is the unpredictability of terrorist attacks. Or is it really different? Every day when we get into a car we run the risk of dying unpredictably (some of that risks is due to 'accident', but some is due to deliberate actions by others - drug/alcohol, or suicide by car). Yet we still do it. By comparison the risk of death from a terrorist attack in Australia is miniscule, yet it sends us into a panic.

Dear o sung wu,

You wrote;

“It may well happen sooner than we think? “

National figure for robberies, murder, manslaughter and moter vehicle theft are all down significantly over the last 10 or so years. Why do you feel there is a rising rather than diminishing threat that would warrant our citizens being armed for their own protection?
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current%20series/facts/1-20/2014/1_recorded.html

Well, it does seem that the local media missed this or deliberately didn't report it, and that is my point;
or was it widely reported and we all missed it?

STEELEREDUX...

No, I was not thinking about crime per se, rather that of terrorism. And thankfully it may well be some time away yet? I was also thinking about a particularly interesting Doco, concerning Israel and the many attempts of Palestinians detonating IED's about the place and the many people I saw armed especially armed women dressed in ordinary attire. I'd not wish to live in a society where the overt carriage of a F/A was an accepted and necessary practice.

As it was for my Mother and her girl-friend during holidays from their Sydney School, in Malaya. On her father's Rubber Plantation. It appeared everybody and their dog carried a weapon in those days, due entirely to the threat from the Chinese Communists Terrorist during the Malayan Emergency of the 1940's to 1960's. From what I was told by my mother, they both thought it to be a great lark !

Issy, I know you suffer from the Dodge City syndrome, which if you recall was a friendly peace loving town of the old west, where everybody carried a gun, it also had a very large cemetery, called Boot Hill.
Just imagine for a minute, you are sitting in the food court of you local Westfield Shopping Center on a busy Saturday afternoon. along with about 400 other people, men, women and children,happens in hundreds of shopping centers all over Australia every week. All crowded in together enjoying the Macca's etc. Most of the adults are carrying a concealed gun, loaded ready for action. Suddenly a shot is fired, someone yells "terrorists"! What do you think is likely to happen?

p/s The gun was fired by little Johnny, who's mum, Mrs Howard had carelessly allowed Johnny to get it from her handbag while she was away getting the KFC!

Please tell me what you think would happen.

A funny one, an Indian bloke was telling me yesterday, he was abused at Central Station by a yobbo for being a Muslim Arab bastard! Strangly he's not Muslim, Arab or a bastard! But for some people it does not matter, they are all the same. That bloke should vote One Nation.

Nothing, Paul, KFC and Maccas are different places.

Paul1405,

Whatever it is you are putting in those handmade rollies, you are going to have to lay off it.

The answer is the old bloke and the Nazi sitting together in the corner would pull out their guns and shoot the Indian bloke who looks like a Muslim Arab bastard! Paul would be safe because he would not dare venture into such a dangerous place.

And that's just for starters! the rest would be on the special report on the 6 o'clock news!

Well arming the population is the wrong solution.
We need pre-emptive action.
It is fortunate that we have plenty of examples to show us the problem.
We must study what has happened in Europe.
We also must realise that what is happening there is just a resurgence
of the defeat of the Islamists in Eastern Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries.
The end of the 1914-18 war cleared the Islamists out of Eastern Europe
and they do not want them back again.

The defeat of the Islamists in their last intrusion into Europe was
in the lifetime of my parents and many Australians died in defeating
them and their German allies.
So while I often say this is a 1400 year old war it is also a war
of modern times. Think about it, their defeat was after the invention
of radio and aircraft.

They are at it again but with different tactics, immigration !

Foxy, we MUST protect ourselves. Banning Islamic immigration is the
only sensible solution. Just be thankful that we are surrounded by ocean.
As far as those that are here, they must be made aware that sharia
will never be implemented and allowed and that mosques will have
restrictions imposed and ultimately closed.

It is the political program of Islam that is unacceptable.
If ever Islam reformed itself then maybe we could reconsider.
However such a move by moslems is punishable by death according to the Koran.

Frankly I think what has happened in history and what is happening in
Europe gives no hope for reform and leaves no alternative to banning.

Dear Bazz,

Muslims have lived in this country for over 100 years.
They practiced their religion and they had their
mosques. They contributed to our society and our economy.
There were no problems until the invasion of Iraq
and to this day we are paying for it. And of course as
long as the West continues to be involved in that region
we will continue to have problems.

I wrote in another discussion about the difficulty of
combating extremism in an environment like Iraq for example,
where people have suffered decades of crippling sanctions,
two invasions, and a lack of global investment to replace
the huge loss of infrastructure caused by sustained bombing
by foreign governments. Any analysis that does not
address these kind of issues, along with issues of
marginalisation, is far from complete.

Foxy, I replied to your comments in another thread that also fit here.
Your attitude is out of date.
The current migration campaign has changed everything.
As I explained elsewhere our recent interventions in the ME are
a continuation of the crusades, It is now time to extract the
remaining Christians from the ME and seal it off.
People will go on about oil but they will beg us to buy it.

Can there be any doubt that a change of tactic is required ?

You said; Muslims have lived in this country for over 100 years.
They practiced their religion and they had their
mosques.

True but things have changed, except for the Broken Hill murder
attacks they did behave themselves.
We now have moslem crime squads in our states.
We now have arrogant immans in mosques.
No Islam is incompatible, no use to try and excuse that.

Foxxy, you are correct, we have had Muslims in this country for over 100 years without problems.
What you have neglected to say is that they were in such tiny numbers they were unable to impact upon our culture in any way.
Two of my husbands aboriginal aunts in the Kimberley married Malay Muslim pearl divers and they were both great men who fitted in well with the multicultural society in the north. They also kept their religious practises very quiet, almost unseen and agreed to their children being raised Catholic.
It's only in recent years we have had any amount of Muslim women and to me that has been the change because now we are expected to change some of our habits to fit in with the women and asked to try and integrate women we can't communicate with because they are enclosed in a sack.
No longer are Muslim men marrying Christian women and raising tolerant children. And now we have Muslim men wanting to change our society in order to protect their daughters from being westernised.
Totally different ballgame.

Dear Bazz,

I find your attitude towards Muslims as being
irrational and inflexible towards an entire
category of people. Your attitude is rooted in
generalisations and so ignores the differences
among individuals. Muslims do not all share the
same traits - contrary to what you believe.

In any case I have no further wish to discuss
this topic with you. That would be counter-productive.

I have no intention of
tarring all Muslims with the same brush and
blaming them all for the behaviour of fundamentalist
extremism.

Hi Foxy,

I find what Bazz is saying frighteningly similar to what another fellow in Europe was saying about another race of people in his country. A small minority that had lived peacefully for hundreds of years, all this in our parents and grandparents lifetime and after the invention of radio and aircraft.
More Australians have died (suicide) because of the actions of pedophile Catholic clergy that at the hands of Muslims. Has anyone seriously calling for a ban on Catholicism? No!

Big Nanna 2% of the population, the ideal number to target

"More Australians have died (suicide) because of the actions of pedophile Catholic clergy that at the hands of Muslims. Has anyone seriously calling for a ban on Catholicism? No!"

Is that a Green statistic, Paul?
As in did you just make it up?

Perhaps you could give a reference?

Paul Said;
A small minority that had lived peacefully for hundreds of years,

Can the same be said about the moslems in Europe ?
Aside from what has been happening in France, they invaded Hungary,
Rumania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece, Austria, Croatia etc in modern times.
Do you call that living peacefully ?
Since the 7th century thay have had the intention expressed by Mohammad
to occupy and conquer Rome.
Rome in that context meant the Roman Empire & Europe and they
regularly restate that as their aim.
It is no secret, they are very pleased to announce it as their aim.

Foxy,

" Muslims do not all share the
same traits -"

Very true and I agree whole heartedly with that statement.

Many Muslims have black hair but those with red hair do not share the same trait, likewise noses, pigmentation, height, stoutness and baldness, just to name a few.

They do, however, by definition, share a belief in the same set of instructions from Allah; as recorded by Muhammad (PBWH).
These instructions are non-negotiable and those who seek to alter them or their meaning could face death, as some do at the moment.

Dear Is Mise,

This might help:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-james-clark/why-don't-moderate-muslims_b_8722518.html

Foxy,

Tat dosen't help at all, what has it got to do with traits?

Bazz, can the same be said about Serbian Christians, do you recall the Srebrenica genocide in 1995 when more than 8,000 innocent Muslim Bosniaks were massacred by element of the Christian Serbian army.

"Since the 7th century thay have had the intention expressed by Mohammad to occupy and conquer Rome". Is Mise would like a reference on that. And what about the Christians and their Crusades, tit for tat there is bad on both sides. How many innocent people now are being killed in Syria by allied bombing.
How many Turks were killed when ANZAC's and others invaded Turkey in 1915? I believe it was about 85,000. What do you say to that?
We could go on all day and night with this sort of stuff.
The reality is the vast majority of people is this world including Muslims are no threat to you and I what so ever. So to blindly target one group as a whole for special attention is wrong. It was wrong when Hitler did it to the Jews, and it is still wrong today.

Dear Is Mise,

The link shows that not all Muslims think alike.
That there are individual differences in their
interpretations of their faith. That many actually
do not support ISIS or believe in violent actions.

Dear Paul,

I forgot to say - "Welcome back."

It's good to have you posting again.

You were missed.

See:

https://theconversation.com/worried-about-shark-attacks-or-terrorism-heres-how-to-think-about-the-real-risk-of-rare-events-74690?

Foxy,

But, I'll say it again, what has the link got to do with traits?

I did agree with you about Muslim traits but you have ignored that.

Some Muslims also share the trait of snoring loudly whilst asleep, and others do not.
However, as snoring is a trait that the rest of humanity share then it is not appropriate to the discussion.

Paul,

You haven't given any reference to back up your utterly stupid statement

"More Australians have died (suicide) because of the actions of pedophile Catholic clergy that at the hands of Muslims. Has anyone seriously calling for a ban on Catholicism?"

Chickening out as usual?

When the Australians,among others, landed in Turkey it was against an already declared enemy, it was not an invasion as that term is usually understood in that context. The Normandy Invasion of WWII ilustrates this.

"The Ottoman Empire joined the Central Powers to form the Triple Alliance with the signing of the August 1914 Turco-German Alliance. Turkey formally entered World War I on 28 October 1914 with the bombing of Russian Black Sea ports".
http://www.thenagain.info/WebChron/EastEurope/TurkeyCentral.html

Paul, like Foxy you missed the point.
I have never said all those other massacres were right, in fact I never
even mentioned them, so why bring them up ?
That is just an old age diversion technique.

I was talking about the current threat from Islam and its relationship
to history. The reference to Rome is in the Hadith I think.
If it is not such a threat why are governments all round the world
spending so much money on security ?

It is amazing how much effort is being made to deny the threat.

More:
A surprising number of people complain that I and others do not take
into account that only some moslems are likely to be terrorists.
Unfortunately that is now redundant thinking.
All we can do is look at the source group and if there is no way to
detect the subgroup that is a risk, then there is only one solution.
Act on the lowest level group definable.

Here endith the lecture on logic.

Dear Is Mise,

Prejudice is an irrational, inflexible attitude
toward an entire category of people.
The word literally means "prejudged."
The key feature of prejudice is that it is
always rooted in generalisations and so ignores the
differences among individuals. Thus someone who is
prejudiced against Muslims will tend to have a
negative attitude toward Muslims in the belief that
all Muslims share the same supposed traits and
beliefs.

Foxy,

".... in the belief that
all Muslims share the same supposed traits and
beliefs."

Are you having comprehension problems?

I pointed out to you that I don't believe that all Moslems share the same traits, most of the women that I have met, unveiled, have been quite beautiful, and I can well understand why their husbands require them to be veiled in public, but not all Muslim women are fortunate enough to share the beauty trait, and I can understand why their husbands prefer not to advertize to the world that they lost out in the arranged marriage gamble.

Dear Is Mise,

So what exactly is your point?

My point, dear Foxy, is that you should look up the meanings of 'trait'.

Why?

Hi Foxy,

There are a number of possible scenarios. with what Issy has to say;

1. Ugly women should wear veils to save embarrassment to hubbies who missed out badly in the lucky dip. Issy will determine the degree of ugliness, by using his tried and tested 'Unglometer' Less than 5 its a veil, less than 2 its a veil and a brown paper bag on the head, can't be too careful.

2. Good sorts, as determined by Issy's 'Uglometer', those scoring 8 and above will also have to wear a veil, for any good sort scoring a 10 plus, its definitely a veil and a brown paper bag. remembering those hubbies from above who lucked out, well we don't want them seeing what they missed out on, now do we.
It a tough job Issy, are you up to the task?

Wait, there's more, but I cant be bothered!

Paul, they probably never saw them unveiled before the marriage ?

Paul,

You haven't given any reference to back up your utterly stupid statement

"More Australians have died (suicide) because of the actions of pedophile Catholic clergy that at the hands of Muslims. Has anyone seriously calling for a ban on Catholicism?"

Chickening out as usual?

Here's some other topic the local media missed:

EUROPEAN Union boss Jean-Claude Juncker issued a jaw-dropping threat to the United States, saying he could campaign to break up the country in revenge for Donald Trump’s supportive comments about Brexit.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/785813/European-Union-EU-boss-threatens-break-up-US-retaliation-Trump-Brexit-support

Tell me do any of you actually believe democracy exists on the planet at all?
When world leaders and elite say stuff like this?
They want open societies, total surveillance, cashless societies and world government and that's all there is to it.

Y'all better wake up.

Dear Paul,

Elizabeth Strout, American author, once pointed
out:

"Traits don't change, states of mind do!"

That's what needs working on for changes to occur.

Issy, I can't spoon feed you all the time. Lets get things in order. You give me the name of the mobster who paid for the gunnies sign in Townsville, as i did ask for it, and then I shall obey your command.

Paul,

You made the assertion so back it up or slink off like a typical Green that's been exposed as lying.

I told you before I don't have the faintest idea who paid for the sign in Townsville and as you brought up the subject of who paid for it, then you tell us.

Here's something else the local media will miss reporting.

"911 call released after Oklahoma man fatally shoots three teen intruders"

http://fox59.com/2017/03/29/911-call-released-after-oklahoma-man-fatally-shoots-three-teen-intruders/

Well worth a look, just for the procedure alone.

Issy, something that escapes you is the overriding principle that you do not have the right to use lethal force, such as guns, to simply protect property. If someone is making off with your chickens, you do not have the right to shoot them dead. Although I believe you think you have such a right. The classic case here in NSW is of farmer and gunnie folk hero Ian Turnbull, who cold bloodily shot dead environmental officer Glen Turner, believing he was protecting his property from unwarranted intrusion. Turnbull got 35 years jail for his crime.
What you do have is the right to self protection, if your life is under threat, you have the right to reasonably protect yourself. If that means using a gun, well so be it, but expect thorough questioning from police after the event to establish the facts.
As to what happens in Broken Arrow Oklahoma, given the amount of interference from the US gun lobby, who knows what is acceptable there, possibly cold bloody shooting is totally acceptable, which I an sure will warm the cockles of your heart.

What's the matter, Paul, out of your depth, embarrassed that you can't substantiate your wild claim that "More Australians have died (suicide) because of the actions of pedophile Catholic clergy that at the hands of Muslims."

You surely must have something to back up such a wild assertion, or is it just another use of the favourite Green tactic of throwing mud in the hope that it will stick?

And that is where you are completely wrong Paul.

We need a return to the complete right to "use lethal force, such as guns, to simply protect property. If someone is making off with your chickens, you do not have the right to shoot them". This is one of the problems with todays society, generated by ratbags like Greens.

We too often let minor criminal acts go unpunished, & there are too many slaps on the wrist. This has trained a generation of thugs to believe they can get away with anything, thus escalating their thuggery.

We are going to have to shoot a few, or at least severely "correct" these people to get back the safety of our streets, & our homes. We are getting far too many no go Muslim areas in Sydney, & Islander areas in Brisbane that I know of, because of this softly softly approach that has trained these thugs to ignore the law, & & have no desire for peaceful coexistence.

I will give you if you like, a recent experience of this, proving it is not safe for a solo man, let alone a solo woman, to walk home from a group of Sydney railway stations today.

Weak magistrates have generated this problem, following Green ideology, & it is going to get worse, if we don't start coming down really hard on these thugs.

Paul,

"Issy, something that escapes you is the overriding principle that you do not have the right to use lethal force, such as guns, to simply protect property."

When did I ever say that one did, or is this another example of Green's mudslinging?

" If someone is making off with your chickens, you do not have the right to shoot them dead. Although I believe you think you have such a right."

Keep slinging!!

"The classic case here in NSW is of farmer and gunnie folk hero Ian Turnbull,"

Care to reference that wild allegation?
Who, other than some dimwit Green thinks that he is considered a folk hero?

The man in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, defended himself against armed criminals and was well within his rights to fear for his life, just as he would be were he in NSW.

Anyone who breaks into a house intends to kill the occupant(s), simple as that.

That is just Paul1405 doing the dirty work of NSW Greens Sh**bridge, the boy who swings from the coat-tails of the notorious 'Aunty'(Paul1405's familiar nick for her) Lee Rhiannon, who has NO policies and NO practical contribution to make to society and get a free ride as a Greens senator for her storms in tea cups.

NSW Greens Sh**bridge, like Rhiannon, picks up anything and everything that might have some prospect for political stirring. Like Rhiannon, 'Boy' Sh**bridge has NO ideas and nothing practical to benefit the public and occupies himself with being a public nuisance and getting headlines.

'Gun Control' is the creature of billionaire George Soros, the international currency dealer who interferes in democracies by sponsoring far leftist disruption and demonstrations. That is weird and inexplicable to many, but perhaps some finance expert might venture possibles as to why he might do that.

Anyhow, 'gun control' is aimed exclusively at confiscating lawfully acquired and used firearms and by reputable, licensed citizens. 'Gun control' is a furphy and a blind. It is 'doublespeak', confusing and reversing the meaning of words. Marxists are notorious for that. 'Gun control' has nothing to do with reducing crimes or even dealing with the drug gangs and dealers that are responsible for almost all weapons crimes, including with firearms.

In Australia the Greens have resolutely opposed and rolled logs in the way of police trying to contain drugs and the gangs who make millions from drug manufacture and trafficking. In Queensland, Greens and Labor are fixed upon dismantling the successful VLAD* laws. Figure that one out if you like, while remembering that they both serve their political interests.

*VLAD laws,Vicious Lawless Association Disestablishment Act 2013 is an act of the Parliament of Queensland, enacted to "severely punish members of criminal organisations that commit serious offenses". [Wikipedia]

PAUL! PAUL!

Where are you?

It does seem that less ethnically diverse nations are less prone
to modern day terrorist attacks.

Nations, like Japan, and mainland China.

There is protection in being mostly surrounded by your own ethnic group.

These societies also do not have their ethnicity divided up by fundamentalist
religions, who eventually through intermarriage within the religious sect, split a
harmonious United ethnic group into two tribes.

One example of this is Tibet, where the Chinese monks have Caused division.

The evidence of ethnic divisions can be seen in all the conflicts we see on the news
every night. The time when it really erupts into violence s in the times of
economic hard times. It was the Great Depression that was the catalyst, that set Germany on a path, that led to the persecution of the Jews and the election of Hitler and
World War 2. In that order.

It's not taught that way in our schools is it? Hitler is always blamed totally.

How much proof do people need, how many times do they have to see this happen,
before they will acknowledge or accept, that multiculturalism will always contain this threat if it is not understood or if there is a denial of this reality

Of course the territorial wars in the Middle East and the fundamentalist religious
Tribalism of certain ethnic groups, are already triggering the terrortorial attacks(so called terrorist attacks,) in our multiethnic society.

Is mise

You say that a human egg contains all the genetic material from the mother
and father to become a human being. The seed of a big oak tree, also contains all the biological genetic information it needs to become a huge tree, but at the Seed stage it is certainly not a fully grown oak tree.

A chicken egg on your plate may be fertilised too, and contain all the genetic coding
to become a fully functioning chicken, but at the fertilised egg stage sitting on your plate it is not a chicken.

Many cellular divisions need to take place before it developes into a chicken.
A fertilised human egg, must also divide and multiple over several months to become
anything remotely like a human being.

In times of Famine, extreme stress or illness of the mother, nature will also spontaneously abort the foetus because if it survives, it may not be healthy.
Nature which is law on this planet, holds no sentiment for human life and
before mankind’s invention of antibiotics and penicillin a huge percentage of humans
never made it past their 2nd birthday, let alone 20years. Just walk around any cemetery dating back to the early 19hundreds.

Mankind thinks his life is special but step out into the wilderness with no protection. Nature will snuff out the life of any human without protection, very quickly.
It’s only with the man made protections from nature around us that we survive.

Cherful,

You seem to have stuck this into the wrong thread, but

"A chicken egg on your plate may be fertilised too, and contain all the genetic coding
to become a fully functioning chicken, but at the fertilised egg stage sitting on your plate it is not a chicken.

Many cellular divisions need to take place before it developes into a chicken...."

If it's on my plate then it's been cooked so there ain't gunna be any further development!

is Mise, we certainly have a few eggs on this thread, how do I respond to them all.

There are those who advocate out of control gun laws. you may not be one, maybe you can state your position, just for my edification if it is not as I say. According to the likes of Hassy if the 9 year old neighbors kid is making off with Hassy's chickens, Hassy shoots him dead, win win situation, no more egg shortage at the Hassy house, and the rest of the neighborhood kids have learn a valuable lesson, don't mess with Hassy!

Issy, I don't need to provide evidence of the multitude of suicides caused by pedophilia Catholic cleargy.

"Two leaked reports written by Ballarat Detective Kevin Carson said the church seems to have known about high rates of suicides over the last 50 years but has remained silent.

The reports listed at least 40 boys and young men who took their own lives following abuse by convicted paedophiles Brother Robert Charles Best and Father Gerald Ridsdale." The Courier 13th April 2012.

"Anyone who breaks into a house intends to kill the occupant(s), simple as that." Please provide evidence of that diabolical rubbish! Like all Greens and the rest of the responsible members of the community I have no tolerance for criminal acts, I believe we have an adequate, and appropriate, criminal justice system to deal with crime.

cont

cont

Beach or LeoJ or whatever you are calling yourself these days on the forum, to save confusion I'll just refer to you as 'The Hansonite'.

These tedious, boring, monotonous, dull, uninteresting, unexciting, unvarying, mind-numbing, mindless, soul-destroying, humdrum, dreary, ho-hum, mundane, wearisome, wearying, tiresome, soporific, dry, as dry as dust, lifeless, colourless, uninspiring, flat, plodding, slow, banal, vapid, insipid, bland, lacklustre, prosaic, run-of-the-mill, pedestrian, jejune, leaden, I cant find a single word to describe these, anti Greens, anti Labor, anti progressive posts of yours. Iv'e got nothing to say other than don't be mealy mouthed, if you want to call David Shoebridge, David Shitbridge, do it, he is not going to sue you, don't be a pussy footer by using Sh**bridge. I wont think any less of you, you are at rock bottom now, cant go any lower.

Paul,

<There are those who advocate out of control gun laws. you may not be one, maybe you can state your position, just for my edification if it is not as I say>

I'm all in favour of gun control laws, but sane laws, not stupid ones; sane ones can be arrived at by consultation and evidence-based research.

Example: I recently bought a revolver chambered in .357 Magnum calibre, I would have preferred one in .44-40 Winchester (which is a considerably lower powered cartridge).
However, because I wish to use the pistol for open target shooting I am restricted to the more powerful round; had I wanted to use the pistol in the Western Action discipline I could have bought it in .44-40, but it could only be used in that discipline or for associated practice.

This silliness is also illustrated by the .38 S&W Special cartridge which is not restricted and the less powerful .38 Winchester which is; the .38 Special has a diametre of .357 inch whereas the .38 Win. is .401 inch.
The difference is .044 inch, or in other words 44 thousandths of an inch.
I've used the inch unit because that is the official State Government approved measurement regarding these cartridges.

more anon, just called to diner.

(replete)

<Issy, I don't need to provide evidence of the multitude of suicides caused by pedophilia Catholic cleargy.>

You do, as you have made the ridiculous allegation that there have been more suicides, related to abuse by catholic clergy than deaths of Australians by Muslims.
You made the allegation so you back it up.

<"Anyone who breaks into a house intends to kill the occupant(s), simple as that." Please provide evidence of that diabolical rubbish>

How is the householder (whoever) to know the intentions of the illegal intruder?

"I say, old chap, do you intend us harm?"

"BANG"

Householder falls dead.

Why should the householder have to run the risk that the illegal intruder has only benign intentions and does not intend murder and rape?

If an illegal intruder has good intentions and is killed, then bad luck; if he intended evil and is killed then the intended victim has the luck; which is as it should be.
The intruder knowingly broke the law and took the risks, the householder should not have to second-guess the intentions of the criminal.

< I have no tolerance for criminal acts, I believe we have an adequate, and appropriate, criminal justice system to deal with crime>
Commendable, Paul, but when a criminal intruder is in one's home and death may be seconds away, dialling "000" is not an option.
A murder takes seconds and the police are minutes away.

Hi Issy,

"I'm all in favour of gun control laws, but sane laws, not stupid ones; sane ones can be arrived at by consultation and evidence-based research."

I have no problem with that.

I do believe it is in the best interest of society to work to remove as many guns as possible out of the environment.

I oppose hunting as a blood sport, I do think it is not all that humane, but that is a moral issue with me, but you can probably argue differently . Target shooting, I really do not have a problem with it, other than the fact I want to remove as many guns as possible from society.

Gun crime, I want the full weight of the law used against those who would use guns to commit crime. That is reasonable position, I think you would agree with that.

Paul,

"Gun crime, I want the full weight of the law used against those who would use guns to commit crime. That is reasonable position, I think you would agree with that."

I do agree and I wonder why the Greens and Labor oppose separate sentencing for the use of a gun in a crime.
Every time that the SF&F bring the matter up it is opposed by those parties.

Here's another that the local media missed, or didn't want to see:

"AUSTIN, Ark. (KATV) - Austin police are crediting a concealed carry holder for helping save a man who was being stabbed by his brother.
Monday night police were dispatched to a stabbing at 10 Marie Lane, where they found 47-year-old Darren Terry with three lacerations. He was taken to the hospital for treatment.
Darren's brother, 30-year-old Chris Terry, was taken into custody for first-degree domestic battery in the case and is being held at the Lonoke County jail on a $10,000 bond.
Upon further investigation, authorities learned a Good Samaritan, identified as Lt. Brandon Teel, witnessed the incident and reported the crime to police.
When he realized the severity of the fight, police say Teel took out his concealed weapon, for which he has a valid permit, and held the suspect until Austin officers were able to take him into custody.
Teel, 35, of Ward, is an active-duty United States Air Force Reserves 189th Airlift Wing and is stationed at the Little Rock Air Force base.
The Austin police chief says Teel's actions saved a life.
"Lt. Teel is a perfect example of a responsible concealed carry permit holder," said Chief Bill Duerson. "He acted heroically in the face of extreme danger and avoided a tragedy."
http://katv.com/news/local/concealed-carrier-stops-stabbing-suspect-until-police-arrive

They missed this too.

"A Moncks Corner resident defended his family Tuesday by fatally shooting a masked man who broke into his home carrying rope and a pistol with a laser sight, authorities said the next day.

The homicide of 30-year-old Elijah Akeem White Jr. of North Charleston was deemed justifiable, and the homeowner is not expected to face charges.

Investigators said a woman who acted as an accomplice in the home invasion by White was arrested. Juanita Marie English, 28, of Logwood Drive in Ladson, faces charges of first-degree burglary and criminal conspiracy.....White kicked in the door. But 27-year-old Justin Washington, the homeowner on the other side, also was armed and shot White four times, Berkeley County Coroner Bill Salisbury said.

Authorities responded about 8:15 p.m. and found White's body outside a home at 203 Post Oak Court. Paramedics declared him dead at the scene.

"In Berkeley County," Salisbury said, "if you kick someone's door in and you get shot, as long as I’m coroner, that will be justifiable homicide.""

http://www.postandcourier.com/news/police-moncks-corner-homeowner-s-fatal-shooting-of-burglar-necessary/article_b473d1fa-0982-11e7-ad18-4b2ae63a2b78.html