Sometimes a police stand-off with a knife-man goes on for a long time, such as today's 40 minute wait until the police fired.
"Shooting too few tranquiliser darts would result in partial effects only, while too many can kill the target. According to James Butts, former Chief of Police of Santa Monica, "Tranquilizing agents don't affect everyone uniformly. Therefore you cannot predict whether or not you have a sufficient dose to tranquilize the individual. Second, any tranquillizer will take time to enter the bloodstream and sedate the individual. If someone is advancing on you with a deadly weapon or a threatening object, there's no way a tranquillizer would take effect in the two to three seconds it would take someone to seriously injure you."
--
The risk of too much is the same risk as a bullet in the chest. If he has a knife the man can't shoot back and the dart will have some effect in slowing him . The benefit is the greater chance of darts not killing him as bullets do.

So?

nicknamenick,

Maybe 1 mark out of 10. But only because you didn't suggest a Phaser (Star Trek) set on stun.

"So?"
A bullet breaks things like bone, brains and false teeth. A dart does not break things. A guy on drugs with a knife does not really need to die. Death is so....final.
The Phaser has a magnet but obviously won't grab a knife will it?

If someone on drugs (guy or doll) attacks me with a knife then they are going to die or be seriously injured. Let's forget all the BS other methods of resolve, a bullet, for those who are privileged to have that resource, is the best and safest answer.

In the example the standoff was for 40 minutes. No one was damaged at all apart from a slug of hot lead ripping into the guy's panels and chassis costing how much in surgery and spray paint? So a dart is good for everyone and the guy slowly sinks to his knees begging forgiveness.

Dear Nick,

«A guy on drugs with a knife does not really need to die»
«and the guy slowly sinks to his knees begging forgiveness»

Whence this assumption that the guy is in the wrong and the police is in the right?

What if the guy's only "crime" is refusing to fill the census?
What if the guy is wielding the knife in defence of his son, if the policemen are at his doorstep in order to grab his son to Vietnam?

If the guy was indeed habitually on drugs thus dangerous to the community, then he should be shot to kill - which is much more merciful than throwing him in jail. Death is not final, but an opportunity to start afresh.

Totally agree. If he comes out of a pub with the smell of death on him, a hit squad should mow him down. (Not doing census is treason and computer fraud , shoot in knee caps only.) Absolutely death is a new start and he can be planted under the pub beer garden to make the grass plants ready for smoking.

Anyone heard of a Tazer?

It works without killing, which is why police use them.

Nick, I was a top marksman. On a range, or hunting I rarely wasted a round, or even an arrow, when I used a bow occasionally. Actually in clear shallow reef water the bow was the best fishing implement I've used.

However, if an armed assailant was coming at me with a weapon, I wouldn't be mucking around with fancy trick shots at moving knees. Hell I wouldn't even try to be Tom Mix & shoot the weapon out of his hand.

The only course of action is to stop the attacker, & that means shooting for the largest target that will do that. That's the upper body, & only the upper body.

Hi there NICKNAMENICK...

Thank you for introducing such a riviting topic on a new range or non-lethal weapons - a 'Phaser'. Are these devices available to the general public, if so where may I purchase one and at what cost please. Or are they only available for law-enforcement and the military ?

In your opening remarks you mentioned the deployment of darts as another option to a bullet. Would one fire or throw this 'dart', or what other method would be needed to deploy the thing ? I should think the dart should contain a phial of anaesthetic which would put the offender to sleep, a far better option to killing them don't you think? Of course the dose would need to be carefully measured otherwise you'd have offenders asleep all over the place, and that would not be good for public relations.

Thank you NICKNAMENICK.

OSW...we have "offenders asleep all over the place" at a location called Caaarnbra (Capital Hill), very untidy and about as useful as hip pockets on a singlet each and every one of them.

The US military have been developing a 'Phaser' type weapon for several years, see: http://www.livescience.com/309-military-mulls-star-trek-weapons.html and further: http://www.nature.com/news/military-technology-laser-weapons-get-real-1.17613 We saw recently the operational firing of the US Navy ship mounted 'Rail Gun'.

The biggest hurdle to getting this into the hands of Plod & Co is keeping the battery sizes small enough to give the grunt to the charge i.e. phaser/laser beam and retaining a practical sized weapon. Given the NSW Police went "full Brazilian" a few years back, even the current issue Tasers (actually a direct descendant of the Star Trek phaser idea) have had problems in their deployment.

As an armourer, it has been on some occasions not funny at all when a colleague 'test fires' their Taser at you. Believe me, going to sleep is the last thing on your mind !

Albie
You're onto it there with the rail gun 8,600 km/h, about Mach 7.
This target was having discussions with police about news and current affairs for 40 minutes until his time was up and they pulled the plug or trigger. With Police radar tracking his knees and a 50,000 volt taser from a drive-by rail gun at break-neck speed he didn't have a leg to stand on.

Hi there ALBIE MANTON of DARWIN...

At the rate these US inventors of alternate methods of subduing violent individuals are going, and without resorting to deadly force, the average uniformed Coppers 'Appointments Belt' will be so damn heavy with all the 'use of force' options hanging from it. He'll probably need a larger girth in which to carry it all. Even then he'll probably be 'pensioned out' because of a ruined back occasioned by the extreme weight of his 'appointments belt' and all the stuff hanging from it !

When I was in uniform the amount of gear we'd neen to carry, would nearly break your back, by the weight of it all ? Upon making detective, all you needed was your F/A and cuffs, still these two items did add up to quite a bit of weight, necessitating the wearing of a coat, even at the height of summer, in order to properly conceal your appointments, pursuant to the Commissioner's direction back in the day. Personally I wore my mod 26 with an ankle holster which proved excellent, once one got used to it.

Modern innovations concerning concealment and unnecessary weight, have made the task somewhat easier these days. Still even with a Glock mod.17 (for uniforms) or the smaller, lighter mod 26 for (detectives), you still had to bear quite some degree of weight on a hot muggy day. Still you couldn't nor wouldn't attempt to undertake inquiries while unarmed ?

Good solid training, buckets of common sense, together with experience, there are not too many situations arising, where you'd need to draw your F/A, let alone discharge it ? Albie, in over 32 years in the job, I'd drawn my F/A probably no more than perhaps a dozen times at most, and never needed to discharge it. I guess I can count myself relatively lucky, considering the number of high risk arrest's, and task force raids, I took part in ?

Hey o sung wu, how did some of the dainty little ladies coming into the force, direct from a university criminology course get on with all that weight.

Or did they go straight to management or detective & avoid all that nasty stuff.

Hi there HASBEEN...

While the equipment belts had to be designed to accommodate the female form, the added weight though a concern in itself, was not the main issue. It was the choice of firearm that caused the most ruckus?

When we went from 'wheel guns' to semi-automatics, there were some issues that needed to be addressed. Most uniformed coppers carried the S & W Mod. 10/3, in a .38 spec. pushing out, either 115gr; 125gr or 158gr hollow points, depending on the flavour of the month.

Whereas most of our fairer sex (uniformed or detectives) carried a S & W 5 shot (round butt), Mod. 36/2, 36/3 or 36/4 loaded with the same round. As a detective I carried a Mod 36/2 5 shot, square butt, easily concealable in an ankle holster with 2 x speed loaders, a total of 15 rounds.

The S & W mod. 36 round butt, accommodated anyone with a small hand, so most of our ladies loved them. With the advent of Herr Glock's innovative little piece, uniformed police carried the Mod 17 - Male or Female. Many of our ladies found the bigger Mod 17 too hard to handle, therefore they sought an appropriate remedy ?

A 'certain' very well known and highly regarded Sergeant, was heard to loudly proclaim, '...if the #%@#%$ can't fire the damn Glock 17 they shouldn't be in the bloody job at all...'? Emmmm.

Well as you can imagine HASBEEN, Executive Command got their respective nickers in a very tight knot and all hell broke loose!
To cut the story short, it was arranged for all ladies to pick their choice of either the Mod. 17; Mod 19; or the popular Mod. 26. Most went for the 15 shot Mod 26, the same gun that I and most detectives carried because of it's ease to conceal. As you can imagine, the poor buggers still carry so much on their appointment belt, they all stagger around with permanently bent knees ! Who'd ever feed police command eh?

Nick...on the subject of "drive bys" & knee-cappings I hear the old HQ panel van is making a comeback in Auburn/Lidcombe and Bankstown...it's the only vehicle readily available to carry enough batteries to power up them rail guns you mentioned before.

Yes the Roni Levy standoff at Bondi Beach was another similar situation where the use of lethal force by officers on the scene was over the top and should have been better handled.

OSW...the use of the types of projectiles you mentioned are not strictly in accord with the Hague Convention (some people like to quote the Geneva Convention but it actually relates to "armed conflict" i.e military forces). I had cause to take up the matter with Paul Henderson who was at the time the NT Police Minister. Having obtained forensic and pathology evidence about the use of expanding projectiles, he then proceeded to deny that his officers were using them "as issued". I took him to task over the shooting of a young offender in one of the communities, where Jongmin was actually unarmed and in flight from officers at the scene.
See: justice.nt.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/208484/20071203-robert-jongmin.pdf

and: http://netk.net.au/Aboriginal/Aboriginal59.asp

As we are seeing weekly only too graphically from the Home of the Land Free of the Brave, officers are certainly taking it upon themselves to be judge, jury and executioner. No wonder the natives are restless.

Good afternoon to you ALBIE MANTON in DARWIN...

Apparently you're correct apropos your comments concerning expanding projectiles being issued to police. It would seem however that most Police Commissioners haven't worried too much about it, other than mandating the size of the projectile whenever we're required to re-qualify and shoot off our old rounds during the various re-qualifying serials.

All training (with wheel guns) was conducted with waddies - and when it came to your qualifying shoot, as I indicated above, you used your old rounds that had been loaded into your F/A for the preceding six months. With new recruits, if my memory serves me well, they too trained with wadcutters but when they eventually qualified and were sworn-in, they were issued with whatever the rest of the troops were given.

In 1986 or 87 (sorry my memory) I attended the FBI Firearms Instructors School in the US, and during a quiet moment I asked the PFI's opinion; on what was then the raging F/A's debate in Oz; the question of .38spec Vs .357mag ? At that time, most SAPOL carried the Ruger Security Six' (Stainless) in .357mag.

He said for Australian conditions, if we still wished to persevere with carrying .38spec revolvers, the best cartridge for us was the, 125gr+P hollow point ! He went on to opine, the only variation he'd make, for a slighter hotter rd. would be a 110gr +P+ ?

Albie, I've was a copper for over 32 years. I've read the extract you kindly furnished us with, and I've noted the contents therein. I get heartily sick and tired of 'learned counsel' in an air-conditioned courtroom, loudly waxing lyrically about a fatal shooting. They were NOT there ! All police shootings are terrible, whenever a copper shoots an individual, that copper is lost to the Force for the rest of his career. Even if the Coroner has completely exonerated him/her. If they return to duty, they'll 'ALWAYS' hesitate if confronted with a similar situation, thus endangering themselves, a third person, or a colleague. Psychologically they're buggered.

o sung wu,

"Even if the Coroner has completely exonerated him/her. If they return to duty, they'll 'ALWAYS' hesitate if confronted with a similar situation, thus endangering themselves, a third person, or a colleague. Psychologically they're buggered"

Surely your remarks above, don't apply to the late Ray Kelly, MBE, or Roger Rogerson, both killed but continued their careers, Roger is now where he belongs but Ray died peacefully of natural causes back in 1977.

Hi there IS MISE...

I've always respected your opinion IS MISE and I agree with your summation of the 'Dodger', but absolutely NOT 'Killer Kelly' as he was known throughout the old CIB. I've worked with the Dodger on several Task Forces, and I didn't know Kelly personally, only by his inside reputation within the CIB - but I don't think I'll say anything further - after all the blokes deceased.

I've worked on several occasions, with a couple of detectives who've shot and killed an offender, and believe me they weren't worth a bumper after all the legal processes had settled down. Both had become aggressive, heavy drinking, provocative and threatening language towards offenders, especially during the conduct of the old fashioned 'Record of Interview' process.

One of them now a divorcee, and a senior member of mine in my squad, arrived for muster pissed, and when I'd confronted him, he became aggressive to the point he threatened the duty Inspector, after the latter had left his office to see what all the ruckus was about! That member, who previously was looked upon as a sort of hero, left the job after causing a massive stink with another member over virtually nothing, again pissed to the eyeballs, I believe in both instances, their aberrant behaviour was symptomatic of PTSD! I was diagnosed with it myself, after my military service.

Mate I know you served in the Korean War, with 3RAR. While I served in South Vietnam, I'm sure you took part in many 'contacts' as did I, when we set out on ambush patrols. Killing was a very necessary and unpleasant part of war. However the calculated shooting of an offender, by a civilian policeman, is an entirely different proposition, then a soldier in wartime, completely different altogether.

The never ending legal process and other Departmental rigmarole associated with that shooting, is positively unbelievable, no matter how righteous that shooting may be determined, by the Coroner, you can believe me on that IS MISE.

Mate,

I was merely pointing out that not all police who killed in the line of duty were much affected by what they did, I personally know a couple who were not affected at all but just got on with the job.
I also knew of a Constable who fired a shot late one night in a Sydney street into the footpath behind a fleeing crim, the lead bullet flatend out and hit the crim in the testicles, fortunately he was wearing heavy work trousers and sustained no more than some severe brusing, but ever after when that Constable called on miscreants to stop, they skidded to a halt!

Another Constable, with whom I worked before he joined, was riding an outfit along Parramatta road in the mid 1950s, he spotted a stolen car about 2.00 AM near the University and gave chase; one of the occupants fired at him with a pistol so he pulled his trusty .25-20 Winchester M1892 carbine from the sidecar and put two shots through the back window, these also went through the windscreen and the car came to a screeching halt, three blokes spilled out and lay flat on the roadway.
The mate got a "wack over the knuckles" for using an unauthorized firearm.

Well there you go IS MISE; you obviously knew more coppers than I did?

FOI - in the 1950's most of the coppers carried the old Browning Pistols in .32 calibre, a beautifully engineered old gun, but not great for anything else but quite close range.

Good morning all. OSW, Is Mise, Nick, Hasbeen - the 'human factor' will always be with us and agreed OSW the poor old copper is stuffed either way...witness the Lindt Cafe Cock Up. Mebbe the SAS should have been called in for that one as it is was (eventually) categorised as a terrorist incident. This is how I earned a living during the 1980's - training up 'Sandy Berets' and NORFORCE patrolmen in weapons handling. The whole thing was a "cluster" as they say. Any dead hostage is 1 too many.

The lawyer sitting in his air conditioned office on Cavanagh st burning the midnight oil dissecting the events post incident has lots to work with and the luxury of infinite coffee breaks, air conditioning and a million "What if's" regarding what Constable Bloggs should or should not have done. Tony Abbott's and Bill Shorten's fathers should have worn a condoms, but that too is a moot point today.

While the availability and proliferation of projectile weapons within police and law enforcement agencies continues as policy, we are always going to see abuses by individuals. There was some discussion as I recall, about one of the NSW coppers involved in the Roni Levy shooting having consumed illicit drugs prior to the donning of uniform and accoutrements and going out for his shift. This too is going to be an ongoing 'safety' issue - much as it is on mine sites today with substance affected persons making decisions that involve other people's lives.

OSW, you may know my old RSM... Norm Goldspink, who I think also served with 3 RAR and went through the Kapyong stoush? PTSD...a big issue from your days in Korea/SVN & having worked in recent years at Robertson Barracks doing my old job as a civvy contractor, I saw an even bigger problem looming on the horizon for the men & women who have served in the Sand Pit returning with issues unaddressed by the various services. The current rates of suicide are staggering and indeed alarming.

OSW, correction: I should have directed my last question at Is Mise.

Hi there ALBIE MANTON in DARWIN...

Whoever your last question may've been directed too, you speak a lot of good sense my friend. You sure you never wore blue Albie ?

OSW...no mate only the baggy green skin from '77 - '88 as a Regular & from there until 2010 with Reserves. I enjoyed great times with many of the NT coppers (serving and retired/transferred) from other state forces who served with me in the Top End.

What all of us agreed upon was the over-politicising, political correctness that infested the hierarchy in both military & police forces, beginning around the mid 1990's. I call it the McDonalds Management Style...too much accounting by bean counters trying to hide funds for next years budget with no real work done by the troops who were all being fed on 'hamburgers' which got smaller & smaller for the same price.

I don't like to see anyone shot or attack by the knife especially to the face.

___________________________________________________
http://aspiremedispa.com.au/cosmetic-injectables/wrinkle-relaxers/

Hi (again) ALBIE MANTON IN DARWIN...

I spent a bit over 32 years in NSWPOL, but have occasionally done an attachment or two with NTPOL, more specifically OPDELTA at Pine Gap in 1983. I was amazed at both the level of their training, together with their bucket loads of common sense; or to put it more succinctly, 'commondogf..k'. I liaised with a Det Snr Const. of NTPOL and got to know him quite well over the three and a bit weeks the operation ran. And I was positively inspired at their solo abilities, and their decision making processes, generally the stuff of a Det Sgt or above in NSWPOL ?

I suspect because they spend so much time working 'one-out' in large patrol districts, I guess they have to be able to think on their feet, otherwise the vastness of NT could also claim them, as well as other conceivable threats. Threats otherwise unknown, to us city detectives. I was very impressed with them, altogether.

Albie you sound like you're a real NT devotee, and I can understand why. You mention NORFORCE (made up of mainly indigenous Aussies and they do a really splendid job as well so I've heard!) I met a group of 'em when we had to go interview a bloke 'banged-up' at Gunn Point not far from Darwin proper. It's a sort of prison camp and the Inmates are supposed to be trustees and they keep an eye-out all along the coastline there. And for some reason a couple of members from NORFORCE were passing through at the time?

Of course I'm an old man now as is my dear wife, but I could quite easily live in Darwin when we're younger, luxuriating in the warm tropical heat, really a curative environment for all my creaking old arthritic bones.

Been away from civilization for the last week, only about thirty miles away but effectively cut off.
We were out in rugged country at the top of the Divide, south east of Tenterfield, after some troublesome wild dogs; didn't get them but had to pass up a lot of foxes as we didn't want to spook the dogs.
Got into the foxes yesterday though and we bagged seven.

o sung wu,

Not trying to upstage you mate, but the two blokes that I mentioned were WWII vets and as one of them said not long after he killed a crim in an exchange of shots,that he'd killed Italians, Germans and Japanese all of whom were probably good blokes and were serving their various countries, so he wasn't worried about killing a criminal, especially one that had tried to kill him.

Albie, I never met Norm Goldspink but I'd heard of him; thankfully I wasn't at Kapyong, I knew a fair few of those that were and to sit and listen to them talk about the battle was an experience not to be missed and the reason that I'm happy to have not been in the Battalion at the time. I like to think that I'd have been as game as they were but I've got me doubts!!

(continued)

Hi there IS MISE...

They're wiley creatures those foxes, you did well to knock over seven of em'!

I fully understand what you're saying now, and the distinction between killing the enemy who are simply defending their own countries, and who probably have the same ideology about the war as any soldier, juxtaposed against a lousy crim, especially one sending a round or two in your mate's direction !

What did your use on the foxes by the way ? These days I'd need an 8g if such a beast is commercially available ?

O sung wu,

I only got two of them, there were three of us in the party, plus the property owner's son who was my gun bearer!

I was using my Ruger No1 in .220 Swift with a 5-12 variable scope, it's a bit heavy for me to lug around these days, just lugging myself and sleeping gear was enough effort!!

The continuation to my post above is still in my home computer, seems that there is some trouble with the modem, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I'm on the Shire Library's one at the moment.

Hi there IS MISE...

You have an impeccable taste in both Rifles and actions. I had the Ruger No 1 in 'Tropical' mod. in .458 Winchester, a truly beautiful rifle that reminded one, of the particular calibre I was using! I shot several 'stalking' serials in the Big Game Rifle Club. I only shot out to a distance of 75 yards, and had to reload one round, upon the 'advance' in the 'stalking' component of the serial. Nevertheless your shoulder began to smart somewhat after awhile with the big .458 ! Several members were the proud owners of quality English Doubles in the big 'Express' calibres, nevertheless I thoroughly enjoyed my 'Tropical' No 1. Thanks IS MISE.