OLO is currently carrying an add for a Tactical Torch and in the blurb for the product is the following:

"Due to the outbreak of late night and early morning crimes, officials are asking residents to take safety precautions. Officials stated they don't want residents to buy a gun or even non-lethal items like a taser or pepper spray. Instead they suggest something you probably would never think of - carry a high power flashlight.

The reason is even non-lethal deterrents are still considered weapons and are restricted in many areas...."

I believe that this is misleading as the torch would probably be considered to be a non-lethal weapon.

Sorry, I haven't seen the advertisement. However, it is amusing that wee little aluminium toys can be considered 'tactical self-defence' options. Lethal? Hardly. Unless the weight was there and the owner was strong and could reliably hit the villain heavily from the temple back.

The few better quality ones might be classed 'tactical' (military use), because they are resistant to damage, waterproof and the batteries last.

Personal protection
To have any chance of creating an impression other than derisive laughter, choose a quality full-size torch, something heavy, with a minimum of six D cells and a strong body. Length does matter and over 30cm please.

Are there any say 450mm long and made from galvanised waterpipe? Choose them. LOL

A full can of Rid, ("For insects, Constable") is a better option. But it doesn't come in matte black with a high price tab.

Yes, the last "road rager" who got out of its car to dish out panel-beating modifications and dispense his own form of justice was met at my drivers side window with a face full of dry chemical powder from the fire extinguisher.

Very effective at putting out idiots as well as fires..and entirely legal to carry in your vehicle.

Albie Manton in Darwin,

Heh, heh, old mate the road rager got a $30 attitude re-adjustment.

A hard-head could have earned the free cylinder as well.

Bet your extinguisher was about due for a swap too ;)

Hi there ALBIE MANTON in DARWIN...

I like your style there ol' fella ! A brilliant tactic as observed by my old mate ONTHEBEACH.

On a more serious note, because of the way most States have fashioned their weapons legislation a citizen (men women or children) are almost bereft of using 'anything' in which to defend themselves against violent attack ! It's left to the copper handling the matter as to whether he'll charge a victim for using some article as an offensive weapon to fraught an assailant, and that's plain wrong.

We've hashed through this legal dilemma ad infinitum and never really got anywhere, and I know that our fellow poster IS MISE has added his considerable voice and experience without a solution ? Maybe it'll take a politicians relative to suffer a serious assault and perhaps some common sense may prevail ?

o sung wu,

It is difficult for police and cynical politicians don't make it any easier.

In Queensland, where the 'leadership' of the Labor Palaszczuk government has seen a return of outlaw motorcycle gangs and some new, nasty imported ones and that is even before of the threatened trashing of the successful VLAD laws, the Weapons Act has been changed to make your own private vehicle a 'public place'.

That means that the restrictions on carrying even a pocket knife in a public place, eg the CBD, now apply to the contents of your private vehicle, anywhere.

However, on the bright side, I hope the police will be conducting plenty of searches of the OMG bikies that Labor and Greens are so enamored by and willing to please.

It seems you approve of a squirted faceful of ammonium sulphate from a solid canister but not a hand torch. What does the extinguisher salt do to a person's eyes? Will it cool his road rage? Will he grab the mongrel thing and pour the lot into muggins eyes?

Hi there ONTHEBEACH...

If the Labour Party in QLD repeals those existing laws that closely regulates and hampers OMG Bikies from consorting or setting up premises for the purposes of consorting, well they deserve everything they get ? The only problem being of course, while it presents no actual personal risk for politicians, it doesn't reduce the risks in anyway, for those involved in law-enforcement. Unless the QLD Labour Government, in a brief altruistic moment, issues each police member with his own personal (small sized), easily concealable 'tactical torch', of a kind that will strike terror into the hearts and mind of a Bikie Gang's toughest, tattooed 'Master' at Arms' !

However the repealed laws, whatever guise they may take, will still need to be adequately enforced. And any additionally compliance or enforcement by definition, always exponentially increases risk, and makes the management of that risk, that much more complex, creating further complexities for police to safely and strategically to interdict those laws.

//It seems you approve of a squirted faceful of ammonium sulphate from a solid canister but not a hand torch. What does the extinguisher salt do to a person's eyes?//

Pretty sure it's ammonium phosphate rather than sulphate, and it's SDS indicates it to be mostly harmless.

Still not something you want to get in your eyes, and it has the potential to cause far more harm than some visible wavelength EM radiation, which is harmless at the power levels produced by a hand torch or even a commercially available LASER.

A road rage bikie throwing a plumber's wrench at a police torch is no match for a fire extinguisher truck at full revs. with extended ladder and firing focused high-pressure from the flanks.

I'm sorry, I'll write that again:

Pretty sure it's ammonium phosphate rather than sulphate, and its SDS indicates it to be mostly harmless.

I hate it's/its. Gets me all the time.

Tony
The chemical extinguisher has both phosphate and sulphate, the former producing ammonia: Ammonia interacts immediately upon contact with available moisture in the skin, eyes, oral cavity, respiratory tract, and particularly mucous surfaces to form the very caustic ammonium hydroxide. Ammonium hydroxide causes the necrosis of tissues through disruption of cell membrane lipids (saponification) leading to cellular destruction. As cell proteins break down, water is extracted, resulting in an inflammatory response that causes further damage , road rage and dented panels with driver fatigue.

In the days when ladies wore hats they always had hat pins close at hand.

//The chemical extinguisher has both phosphate and sulphate, the former producing ammonia//

And phosphoric acid. You forgot the phosphoric acid.

Vitriolage is generally regarded as being beyond the pale in this country, but it is a lot more common in Muslim countries, with Bangladesh leading the pack.

CORROSIVE. Causes severe skin burns and eye damage.
Way to go , get a good shot at the eyes so the guy is out of action and can't find that *#&)^ fire extinguisher.

My point is that the torch, if carried with the intent of using it for self defence, would constitute a non lethal weapon even though it was intended to only dazzle an attacker and for that reason I consider the add to be misleading.
It is also misleading in other aspects.

They are quite a menace.

•flashlight;
• swarm, where several police attack from various directions;
• chemical irritant spray, including capsicum (capstun), tear gas (CS, CN) and mace;
• electronic stun devices, such as taser, ultron, and nova;
Is a swarm of police with torches a lethal force?

o sung wu,

Just to give two more examples to show how difficult politicians make it for police and the public they protect:

1. Very soon after a notorious bikie was slapped on the hand with a wilted lettuce leaf for engaging in a serious public brawl in a family restaurant in the Gold Coast, he beat his young, long term female partner to death in a public place. Whereupon Labor Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk, who vowed to trash the VLAD anti-bikie (actually anti-criminal gang) laws, rushed urgently to declare the death as 'domestic violence', citing 'men' as the real problem and instituting a domestic violence public advertising campaign.

The offender in action, this time in gaol,
http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/news/crime-court/former-bandido-bikie-lionel-patea-charged-after-allegedly-throwing-boiling-water-on-inmate/news-story/950ef08052f1e47a90b6389f2b343ccd

2. Allegations have again emerged of senior Rugby League football players sharing their recreational pursuits and celebrity with notorious Bikies. The knee-jerk reaction of Independent Gold Coast Mayor Tate was to set fire to the messenger, to burn The Gold Coast Bulletin for having the temerity to report. See here,

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/news/opinion/mp-johnpaul-langbroek-reflects-on-the-potential-bikie-revival-three-years-after-brawl/news-story/f0f9d12a564802f01a4a80a95d8e46a9

No Sydneysider would be surprised at that given the news reports over the years of criminal/Bikie gang associations of senior NRL players.

The police and public are continually let down by politicians where criminal gangs are concerned. Politicians who constantly playing the game of 'look over there instead' and outright denials of photographic evidence put before them.

Police on the Gold Coast are rightly concerned about the lack of government concern about threats being made against members of their families Bikie and criminal gangs. It is a takeover bid being likened to comic book thugs as in Gotham City. But it is real.

What prevents politicians from taking action, or even giving the police adequate resources and support? Whenever allegations emerge, some urgent road traffic 'blitz' or other faux 'emergency' is found to occupy the attention of the police, media and public. -The politicians' games of 'Look there instead' and 'Never you mind'.

Who would want to be a cop?
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/crime-and-justice/gold-coast-police-officer-who-was-shot-in-face-speaks-at-attempted-murder-trial/news-story/0af39f41dca3e93b189ea8ee4ce4e1c6

Labor Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk unerringly finding 'domestic violence' of 'men' as the real cause,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-10/ex-bandido-lionel-patea-to-face-murder-after-tara-brown-bashing/6763694

1. I could think of other ways to use a maglite torch other than shining it in the attackers eyes.
2. With a face full of powder perpetrator would be best to head back to his car, lest we wants to wear the extinguisher and not just the powder.
3. You can have a pocket knife in your car, you can have a big kitchen knife or fishing knife in your car, but the cops aren't going to like it even if you state that it was for a legal purpose.
They will treat you as if you are putting lives in danger just keeping it in the car and will question why it wasn't kept in the boot.
They will see it as a threat to them in the course of their duty.
Don't ever state that it is for defense, or you'll be charged.

Armchair Critic, "You can have a pocket knife in your car, you can have a big kitchen knife or fishing knife in your car, but the cops aren't going to like it even if you state that it was for a legal purpose"

The law change by Labor creates the real risk being charged in the examples given. That could affect the owner, driver and passengers. It will be interesting to see the precedents being set.

Secondly, for any who believe that their vehicle cannot be searched without a warrant, or without 'good cause', rest assured that you will be proved wrong and after your legal eagle has bought a new Audi A4 for his/her missus.

I am agonising over the risk of keeping in the centre console of my 4X4 a dedicated, purpose-designed, drop point rescue knife that has actually been used for that purpose. But do you reckon I would want to attend Court and pay a very large sum to a defending counsel in the hope that a judge would not rely on a literal interpretation of the law that would place me in the wrong anyway? Even if I won I would still be up for all of the costs, legal costs which the public prosecutor is not up for personally.

What about a Leatherman combination tool knife? Perhaps you have a chance if it is bouncing around among greasy tools in a box in the back of a work ute.

The pocket knife in the glove box for oranges? So what if the blade is thin and 10cm. If the tip is not rounded and the cutting edge as blunt as the handle, it could easily fit the definition, then what?

I do not believe the police are out to pinch ordinary people going about their daily business. But where the available law is breached, what are they to do? The devil is in the detail and that refers to the knife. That you are a law-abiding citizen is not relevant.

ONTHEBEACH...

Your last paragraph is absolutely correct ! The coppers aren't after ordinary people carrying out their normal daily activities, it's the boofheads hanging around the night-spots at 2.00am - 3.00am on a Friday or Saturday night seeking trouble, and intimidating others. The regulations associated with any criminal statute is merely a tool to assist the coppers in doing their jobs, is all !

OSW...you have my deep respect, being a copper today would be for the most, an onerous vocation, not to mention dangerous. I'd imagine in your days on the beat there was no issue of Aids/Methamphetamine/Ice as there is for the poor old flatfoot in today's uniform.

In WA where I now reside, the laws regarding the carrying of 'tactical torches' - especially for those in the security industry, are such that to carry the old Maglight (3 or 4 'D' cells) is strictly forbidden. The WAPOL recommended item is somewhere in the region of 6 inches length.

ANY object, item, or device (including the aforementioned extinguisher) if used in a manner considered likely to cause injury "bodily harm/grievous bodily harm" can be construed by the courts as a 'weapon'.

In my case, the road rage incident happened at a busy intersection opposite a McDonalds, the offender was evidently drunk from his speech and behaviour and was later arrested for malicious damage, assault and charged with high range BAC. On this occasion it was witness statements that quite likely saved my bacon.

A Big mac shoved in the face may be acceptable. A double Angry Angus has 6gr of salt.

o sung wu,

There is no avoiding either the contribution of poor migrant selection to the violence. Previous State Commissioners of Police, for example, in NSW, have commented on the occasion of leaving their job and service, that there are those who have brought with them their toxic, corrupt political systems and nasty traditions, disregard for Australian law, and violence as a normal part of their life.

http://www.australian-news.net/multicultural.htm

Some years ago it became commonplace in the morning to encounter splattered blood in the once welcoming, quiet and peaceful places of Brisbane. One could only imagine how much was removed by street cleaners and building management staff before the 7.30am office commuters. Where my own workplace was concerned, from the landscaping every morning there was the collection of weapons of the criminal gang drug traffickers and the stowed and also forgotten expensive recreational drugs of the surrounding clubs' patrons.

Drug Cartels
Was anyone else shattered to hear of PM Turnbull's plan to take economic migrants from the Northern Triangle of Central America? It has been the constant fear of police here in Qld that the South American drug cartels that have been jealously eyeing the highly profitable, soft Australian scene would be able to get a foothold through migration. Along comes Turnbull to oblige them with airline tickets, State support and citizenship!

Incidentally, the 'fact checking' (sic, that is a laugh) ABC is only concerned about giving the LNP government kicks in the groin over the welfare of economic migrants.

Politicians do not listen to their own police forces. But why not?

Some of the convicts did stuff. The Rum Corps were the police.

Good evening to you ONTHEBEACH...

There's no doubt police (including myself) have been confronting individuals from certain ethnic mixes, many from The Lebanon, who've introduced gang control over many of the hitherto Asian Drug cartels operating out of Liverpool, Fairfield and Cabramatta. And now they've got total control over distribution, money laundering and protection in the Punchbowl and Bankstown areas.

And as we've seen in various media releases these ME gangs are seen to be financing activities associated with Daesh, and are instrumental with providing finance for these young and incredible stupid 'radicalized' ratbags who wish to fight for Daesh (ISIS) in Syria.

And you're right our politicians, though amply warned, seek to close the door so to speak, all too late allowing these thugs to setup and consolidate their presence, without the coppers having the power to do a damn thing about it ? As I've said often, I'm glad I've retired.

o sung wu,

Among voluntary workers arranged by churches, in community clubs and where any community-minded citizens meet, there is always a good representation of serving and retired 'engine room' police.

Maybe a few less now, because the leadership of police does not always show leadership themselves where it really counts. But that is another story and should not detract from the sterling contributions of the many, more practical types at middle and lower levels.

Anyhow, getting around to the point of it, the seasoned police I meet used to shudder at the thought of the Russian Mafia moving into Australia. Then it happened and things got more complicated forever. Fortunately, through happy circumstance (for police and public), the Russians may not have many feet on the ground yet.

For some years now the subject of Central and South American drug cartels has been a conversation stopper and for obvious reasons (think US experience).

Police must be totally exasperated and let down that this fool of a PM and his ministers are going to run the risk (certainty) of importing the trusted, apparently 'clean skin', representatives of drug cartels from Central America to set up business in Australia.

Hey onthebeach,

You know Turnbulls pulling a swifty on all Australians as far as immigration in concerned.
If you go back over the last few weeks and look carefully at the comments he's made you'll see that he clearly says that Australia's tough stance on border protection allows him to bring in more legal immigrants and give more foreign aid.

It's like a sleight of hand thing.
He proclaims "Australia is really tough of illegal immigrants" so that he can bring thousands more in legally and give our taxes away.
I challenge anyone to look for yourselves and you'll see I'm right.
I could probably dig up the links to prove it if anyone disagrees.

Anyway...
You can have a machete in your car if you say you've been cutting down cane.
You can have a kitchen knife (a big one) in your car if you say it's there to cut oranges and apples for lunch.
You can have a fishing knife in your car if you say that you use it in the course of fishing.

But with any of these knives (including a tiny pocket knife with 2 or 3 inch blade) or any knife at all for that matter YOU WILL run the risk of being charged if you say it's for self defense.

Why?

Because if you say it's for self-defense, you are admitting to police that it's purpose is a WEAPON, get it?
Then, by your own admission you could be charged for 'Possession of a Weapon in a Public Place', and if you tried to fight it in court, you'd lose.

You admitted it was a weapon, You we're carrying it in a public place, You're guilty; take him away...

Now I'd argue personally that a persons private vehicle isn't a public place.
I can't just go hop into someone else's car like its a public place, but that's the law.

If you DO NOT admit it's a weapon, you WILL NOT incriminate yourself in a way that they can then charge you.
Hope this clears it up for you.

//My point is that the torch, if carried with the intent of using it for self defence, would constitute a non lethal weapon even though it was intended to only dazzle an attacker//

Really? Incoherent visible wavelength photons are non lethal weapons? Well that's a new one.

What about car headlights? I reckon they'd have a few more lumens than a hand torch. Surely they could be used to dazzle an attacker? How can it be legal for everybody to go about with two non lethal weapons on the front of their car? Wouldn't they get defected if they removed them?

O Sung Wu, I am interested to know if the Lebanese gangs comprise
both Moslem and Christians ?
Or do they have separate gangs ?
Does the name Middle Eastern Crime Squad really mean Moslem crime squad ?

The most worrying thing about these tactical torch ads are the blatant lies they tell. Earlier today I saw one claiming police in Sheidow Park recommend carrying it. Aside from the fact that it's not something Aussie police would recommend at all, there is no police station anywhere near Sheidow Park!

Armchair Critic, "If you DO NOT admit it's a weapon, you WILL NOT incriminate yourself in a way that they can then charge you"

That is advised but is no remedy in this case. Your private vehicle is now a 'public place' by Statute in Qld. It is the law. Erring the side of caution is advised.

Thanks for you detailed response.

Has anyone else noticed that this site is fast to get to the page
but it takes forever for the text to appear ?
At the same time other sites are normal.
Right now it is back to normal, but it has been going like this for
a couple of days or so.

Hey onthebeach,

Lets say you don't say anything when police ask about a knife they just found in your car and they charge you.
Then, at court the Magistrate asks why you had the knife in the car and you say "It wasn't for self defense, Your Honour; it was for cutting up the apples I eat each day at work during my morning break" in which case the Magistrate will be peeved that police wasted his time.

Your charges will be dismissed and the prosecutors who brought the case before the court will probably get told off.

That's why it's extremely unlikely that you will get charged for it unless YOU do the hard work for them and dob yourself in by saying "It's to be used for self defense" when they question you about it, which they certainly will if they find it.

They aren't going to risk their own backsides to get you for a $200 fine if you don't give them an open and shut case yourself.

And for the record, I didn't feel too good about sharing this info publicly because it could potentially put peoples lives in danger.
I'm happy for the administrator to delete my comments on this topic, if they feel it's the right thing to do.

What torches are you looking at anyhow?
It's not the 'Shadowhawk X600' that keeps popping up in the forum ads?
It looks pretty powerful, it's always handy to have a good torch. I think I want one too.
If anyone's interested in buying one, it might help to check prices on eBay first, before rushing in as they could be cheaper there.

The Statue of Liberty has a big torch and said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. On a dark night with no car a person may only have an oil flame torch. If they hit someone with it how will they get home?

Armchair Critic,

Thanks again. You are not giving anything away, so the moderator need not be concerned either. From the Police site,

<Can I carry a knife for work purposes?
It is a reasonable excuse to physically possess a knife to perform a lawful activity, duty or employment; to participate in a lawful entertainment, recreation or sport, for exhibiting the knife or for use for a lawful purpose. Examples as quoted in Section 51 of the Weapons Act 1990 are:

A person may carry a knife on his or her belt for performing work in primary production
A scout may carry a knife on his or her belt as part of the scout uniform
A person may carry a knife as an accessory while playing in a pipe band
A fisher may carry a knife for use while fishing
A person who collects knives may exhibit them at a fete or another public gathering
A person may use a knife to prepare or cut food at a restaurant in a public place or when having a picnic in a park; or
A person may carry a pen knife or swiss army knife for use for its normal utility purpose>

However, most practical knives and all rescue knives (apart from the toys) are designed to be opened by one hand. For example, a Gerber which is one of the best and reasonably priced rescue knives, has an enlarged hole in the short blade for that purpose. Others may have a bent section or push area to assist. These are not 'flick' knives or nasties. They are in very common use with fire fighters, ambos and so on elsewhere.
tbc..

continued..

That means the Gerber and the others fall under a different provision. This one,

<7A Category M weapons
Each of the following is a category M weapon—
...
(b) any knife so designed or constructed so as to be used as
a weapon that while the knife is held in 1 hand, the blade
may be released by that hand;>

That is the relevant clause. Your car is now deemed to be a 'public place'.
Remembering Murphey's Law, what if the traffic constable conducting (say) a random check believes it can be left to a Court to sort out whether you are possessing a Category M weapon you should have sought prior approval for (and as such it should be locked up)?

As said earlier, why risk the inconvenience and cost of visits to court? Or put employment or other licences at risk? Add the additional risk that the magistrate may find a wrinkle through his literal interpretation.

Problems caused by knee-jerk regulation. Politicians 'solving' problems with more redundant laws and stuffing it up. Both sides of Parliament are guilty of that.

OTB...bingo ! " Problems caused by knee-jerk regulation. Politicians 'solving' problems with more redundant laws and stuffing it up. Both sides of Parliament are guilty of that."

Problem is that: we the electorate, are equally to blame for putting these buggers in there before they pass bills and legislate.

I stopped voting after the Kevin '07 thing...there simply isn't any person, man or woman on any platform that has integrity, brains and common sense. It is indeed a sad commentary on ourselves primarily.

Hi there ARM CHAIR CRITIC and TONI LAVIS...

What you said TONI is completely correct ! Irrespective of what an individual is carrying, even something as innocuous as a tooth brush, it's the 'intent' with which they're carrying the article, that will cause them bother, and may get 'em into trouble.

Without appearing to lecture anyone herein - there are two important elements of a crime;

(i) the mens rea (criminal 'intent') and,

(ii)the actus reus (the criminal 'act')

Without these two vital elements of a crime, police cannot prosecute their case. Believe it or not, (theoretically at least) murder is one of the easiest of all crimes to prove - The hardest being, the old 'Common law larceny' ?

(i)The five common proofs;

(ii)A dead human being; and lastly

(iii)malice aforethought.

Including the presence of those two vital elements as mentioned above. The difficulty with most homicide matters is identifying the perpetrator and assembling all the necessary evidence (incl. motive) to prove 'malice'? Hope this helps a little gentlemen ?

Hi there BAZZ...

In my time with the Task Force most of those we arrested were of Lebanese origins, and when charged, describing themselves as being Muslim. Or if utterly uncooperative told us, among other things, to get 'laid' if you get my drift ? Whether there were any Christian 'players' among them, I couldn't say, though I hardly think so, they were a really tough, ruthless lot, who were very much a closed shop !

In my time, they had no such nomenclature as 'Middle Eastern Crime Squads', that came later - I and my squad, were actually deployed from the CIB as supernumerary to the original Task Force, that operated both in the Bankstown/Punchbowl areas and prior to that, under the aegis of D/Sgt T.P. at Cabramatta, interdicting Asian Drug Gangs. I hope this answers your queries ?

Another aspect is reckless indifference such as tossing bricks off a high-rise without looking or pointing a laser at drivers in general or plane pilots landing. Maybe this torch could be abused that way.
Even a bike rider would be in strife at speed on a roadway.

Actually NICKNAMENICK...

This 'reckless indifference' an American term similarly meaning, what is described in Australian law as; 'foresight of consequences' an element of the crime of recklessness in some Motor Traffic legislation in most States.

Ah well eventually the charge sheet would get it right.
NSW 18 Murder and manslaughter defined

(1)
(a) Murder shall be taken to have been committed where the act of the accused, or thing by him or her omitted to be done, causing the death charged, was done or omitted with reckless indifference to human life,

Yes thanks O sung wu

Albie Manton in Darwin, "Problem is that: we the electorate, are equally to blame for putting these buggers in there before they pass bills and legislate"

True

I carry a knife in my car because I may find it necessary to cut a seat belt or other restraint to free a person from a crashed motor vehicle.

All motorists should have a fire extinguisher and a sharp knife in their vehicle, plus a powerful torch.

Tactical torches usually have a fast flashing option which is designed to disorientate an attacker, they are thus a non-lethal weapon.

A fast flashing knife and rapid chemicals to the eyes are more persuasive.

You're right IS MISE it's all a matter of common sense;

A sharp knife to cut through a seat belt;

A strongly made, and reliable flash light for the purpose of providing a portable light source;

A good quality automotive fire extinguisher, to extinguish an automotive fire;

Unless an individual has any of the above articles in their possession, in circumstances that may raise a coppers suspicions:-

Like a person carrying a knife (sharp or otherwise) concealed on his person at 2.00am in a Night Club, or aggressively waving around in a threatening manner (while intoxicated), a heavy flashlight in a well lit urban area; or taking a portable fire extinguisher into a dance environment or cinima - It's just down to straight bloody common sense, nothing more. Believe me the average copper has more to do with his day, than completing onerous masses of paperwork, over some ridiculous hitherto Summary Offence !

o sung wu, "It's just down to straight bloody common sense, nothing more. Believe me the average copper has more to do with his day, than completing onerous masses of paperwork, over some ridiculous hitherto Summary Offence!"

I agree with you. But that is not the issue I raised.

The Queensland Labor government, coincidentally the same government that is trashing the successful VLAD law against the advice of police, has amended the Weapons Act to make your own private car a 'public place'.

That combined with the previous changes to the Weapons Act, which were highly contentious at the time and remain so, have needlessly created the circumstance where many drivers are already breaking the law by continuing to do what they have always done.

It goes beyond the police being obliged to exercise commonsense and discretion. However, one should always be aware too of the ruling of Sir Garfield Barwick when he was Chief Justice of the High Court, that where there is evidence of a breach, the police have no option other than to charge the person concerned. The police should not be put in the position of having to ignore poorly framed and foolish regulations in an attempt to avoid injustice and negative public relations - getting a very large section of the law-abiding public offside.

What is inescapable here and is illustrated by the example I gave concerning practical, purpose-made rescue knives (a Gerber being one of the best), is there is no contention, no 'ifs' or 'buts' or even 'maybe', that the mere POSSESSION of such tools IS a serious offence. They cannot be carried in a vehicle. Their intended use is irrelevant. Also irrelevant is the character of the owner, the vehicle driver and passengers.

My previous posts refer,
onthebeach, Friday, 23 September 2016 7:22:06 AM
onthebeach, Friday, 23 September 2016 7:28:20 AM
-Refer in particular to Category M weapons
(with apologies for misspell of Murphy's Law)

The changes to the weapons regulations are not being explained to the public and there are no plans to advise visitors from other jurisdictions.

This is a comment not on the torch but on the ads on OLO. The ones I get are related to things I've previously searched on-line. Last year I researched venetian blinds on-line and then bought some through a local company (not on-line). For months afterwards I got venetian blind ads appearing on OLO. I'd never seen these ads before I googled them. Thankfully they appear to have stopped.
Currently I am getting ads from Booking.com, for deals at specific places where I have already and recently either searched for or booked accommodation. Clearly the ads are targeted and are based on my recent on-line activity.
So, Is Mise, if you were seeing ads for the torch before you started this topic, then you were probably searching on-line for self-defense items or suchlike. Now of course, because of the numerous mentions in the forum, we are all seeing these ads (I'd never seen one before). Out of curiosity I have just checked the other current topics to see whether it is restricted to this one, or now generally on OLO - the latter, the ad turns up on the Muslim topic, along with the persistent Booking.com. It will be interesting to see how long the torch ad persists.

Gerber Fast Draw Knife 22-47162 22-07162. The ad says it's safe to buy. Should be on your screen soon.
It's faster than a fire extinguisher. And ads for buying corrupt fire-men also appear.

nicknamenick, "Gerber Fast Draw Knife 22-47162 22-07162"

You have misrepresented what I said. Why?

I referred a number of times to the Gerber RESCUE knife as an example when discussing Qld regulations.

If you want to contribute to the discussion, great, you can make a start right now.

If I want to advertise the fast draw Gerber what's that to you?
Hinderer Rescue - Serrated, Sheath. Built with firefighters in mind, the Gerber Hinderer model 22-01534 is a knife loaded with features.
It's a folding knife for fire extinguisher rage. Suitable for fire-trucks drive-by hosing of bikies.

".. under current legislation swords do not need to be registered to a licence issued under the provisions of the Weapons Act 1990."
They are OK like Gerber driver-slashers if used for lawful purpose such as slicing sandwiches. If the suntanned dude goes for his sandwich the Police officer may use his sabre or samurai sword in the line of duty.

Hey O Sung Wu,
Thanks for the earlier info, and yes it did help to explain things.

See "Flashlight Scam: Shadowhawk X800 And Others": http://www.theoutdoornerd.com/2016/02/flashlight-scam-shadowhawk-x800-and.html

I purchased a 3 Watt LED aluminum torch which takes 2 "C" cells, at a discount store for under $20 and it works very well. The beam is very bright at short distances, but I doubt it could be regarded as a weapon. I also have a pocket torch which has a 1 Watt LED and runs off one "AA" battery, which cost less than $10.

For practical purposes I can't see needing anything brighter. If you think a torch is going to stop an attacker, then you really should stay home nights.

Tomw,

".... If you think a torch is going to stop an attacker, then you really should stay home nights."

Then you've never seen a torch that has a function (very rapid high intensity flashes) intended for defence, believe me no one that it is used on can see a thing, they are visually incapacitated.

A welding flash is not good when a person is staring at the job for a minute. Sun flash is best avoided by moving the eyes off to one side then lowering both eyelids towards the lower lids and flick down the sunglasses from above the hairline.

Is Mise,

While I agree with you that the torch you describe should not be defined as a weapon by police or by a Court, as the regulations are written there is considerable room for speculative actions by police and an interpretation by a Court that could go against the owner/possessor.

It is the police who advise policy (and can limit consultation thereon), administer, interpret and enforce the regulations.

The consequences of being found to be in possession of, let alone have used, a 'weapon', are severe. Some here appear to be either naive about that or frivolous in not placing a high value on their good character. It can and will have flow-on effects elsewhere in life.

The seller or the intending purchaser is obliged by the Regulations to obtain a statement in writing from the police that it is not deemed by police to be a weapon in the State of residence and from the relevant police commissioner wherever it is intended to be held.

Testing for a land-mine by stepping on it is always ill-advised.

Ipswich Magistrate Barry Cosgrove said "If you're employment requires you to own a knife, you need to make sure it is secured in a toolbox or something,". Swords and bread knives ought to be in the basket and don't flash the torch in Mr Plod's face to see if he's focused on the job. Keep the fire extinguisher in a belt loop or under your hat.

nicknamenick,

I don't know how offenders carrying butchers knives in public is relevant in any way to my earlier post and the issues being discussed.

You clipped the quote and omitted the link to serve your own purpose. Here is more,

<"Ipswich Police Inspector Keith MacDonald said if you carried a knife in public, you could expect someone would alert police about it.

"If people see someone with a knife in public, their presumption is usually that the person has - or is about to - undertake illegal activity," he said.

"It's similar to if a person carried a firearm around in the community.

"There is rarely ever a good reason for someone to be in possession of a knife in public.">
http://www.qt.com.au/news/possessing-a-knife-in-public-is-not-too-cleaver/2668031/

and the final bit about the sentence? hmmmm?

Sic 'em nick,

http://www.australiangear.com/akubra-leather-belt-stockman-knife-pouch.html

Definitely a bother you'd say. Now the cow cockie can't leave the offending item in his car* either. Cripes, if the Old Timer is in the pouch it is 'as dangerous as a loaded gun' (Ippy Inspector says so). That is why it has to locked up in a safe in the back of the Landcruiser.

car* - defined as a 'public place' by the Qld Govt.

Remembering that where Qld Labor Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk and her Attorney-General Yvette D'Ath are concerned, those patched-up Outlaw Bikies are just misunderstood boys who should never be inconvenienced by the police. That is why the successful Vicious Lawless Association Disestablishment Act 2013 (VLAD) that was enacted to "severely punish members of criminal organisations that commit serious offenses" has to be trashed by Annastacia and Yvette.

The Bad,
http://www.australiangear.com/akubra-leather-belt-stockman-knife-pouch.html
and the good according to Labor,
http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/news/crime-court/bikie-taskforce-chief-mick-niland-admits-letting-hells-angels-flout-vlad-laws-for-funeral/news-story/d70cf6556035a9a9f011f7d65e322c3a

The priorities of Queensland Labor.

Now, back to the OP.

The OP? A person may use a knife to prepare or cut food at a restaurant in a public place or when having a picnic in a park; or
A person may carry a pen knife or swiss army knife for use for its normal utility purpose in Queensland. The flashing high-beam nearly-lethal torch needs to be taped to the picnic knife or machete blackberry cutter or preferably the fire extinguisher food additive dispenser. simples. Bikies with high beam halogens are cool if they have a corned-beef sword strapped to the high pressure foam hose.

OTB,

I do think that the torch can fairly be described as a non-lethal weapon
my gripe is that OLO has a misleading add going that could get some people into trouble, possession of the high intensity flash torch is not necessarily an admission of intent however as an alternative function is as a warning light particularly if there has been an accident on the road etc.

Cossomby,

I haven't been looking at adds for Tactical Torches I do look frequently at adds for firearms, particularly pistols as I'm getting back into competitive pistol shooting; there have been no adds for pistols,
Rcently ther have been adds for "Gay Cruises", I wonder how that started?

Good evening to you NICKNAMENICK...

I quite often have no idea what it is you're trying to say or trying not to say. It would seem that everything you wish to say is shrouded in some form of obfuscation even allegory, all of which is calculated to confuse, confound and thoroughly mislead the reader to a point I can only wonder why ? Is it your intention to be deliberately misunderstood or some other equally mystifying reason ?

O sung
Sometimes the more serious and heavy that things become the more humorous they become. Select 'ignore' and it's OK.

Is Mise,

I agree with you. However, as ordinary citizens and businesses are finding every day to their cost, the politically-correct Nanny State is far more interested in controlling and hampering the ordinary, reputable, law-abiding person and business, than criminals and ferals, whose 'rights' occupy the leftists and their politics.

o sung wu, yourself and others have remarked here and in other threads (and I hope I am not 'verballing' any) on the commonsense that applied for many, many years. All gone it seems. Daily, the good is being recklessly thrown out with the bathwater by fools and scoundrels. Regulations and interpretations based on evidence? Forget that!

If anything ever goes pear-shaped, the people who scoff at the thought now will not be there to pay for the costs in support. For example, if an offender is alleged to have been harmed (perish the thought!) in the commission of his/her crime, the citizen who defended him- herself could be in serious trouble. What if the temporarily blinded offered walked onto an adjoining motorway to meet a passing bus, or suffered an epileptic fit resulting in harm?

Then there is the problem of the 'tactical' description and design that hysterics react to. What if there is a media beat-up and one of the left-leaning judges with a bleeding heart for protecting ferals is on the bench?

There is sillier stuff going down daily in politically correct Oz.

There is no reason why the Qld Weapons Branch shouldn't be asked for rulings and in writing.

Why put other licences/job/recreation/interests/assets at risk of a speculative police charge to set a precedent and a court decision that surprises? At around $130 for a full-size Maglite* instead, the Maglite could be the cheapest insurance you ever took out. Insurance against some promotion-hunting fool of a constable for starters.

MAGLITE® ML300L™ 6-Cell D LED Flashlight
http://maglite.com/shop/magliter-ml300ltm-6-cell-d-led-flashlight.html#.V-kj9PB96Uk

"What if the temporarily blinded offered walked onto an adjoining motorway to meet a passing bus, or suffered an epileptic fit resulting in harm?"

should be,

"What if the temporarily blinded OFFENDER walked onto an adjoining motorway to meet a passing bus, or suffered an epileptic fit resulting in harm?"

Is Mise,

Where I was getting to with the torch and its advertising is that insurers and their lawyers rule.

The Nanny State (politically correct) over-regulation by the Qld Labor government will continue to have flow-on effects, the most noticeable being more limited range of products and higher prices.

Reputable companies are being squeezed out by apparently cheap but high-profit makers of cr@p, who regularly close up shop and re-open under another name, thereby avoiding any warranty and other blow-back