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The Forum > General Discussion > Lindt Siege

Lindt Siege

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Enquiry reveals that top police "missed opportunities" to shoot the gunman holding hostages (and eventually killing two of them) because they were worried more about possible backlashes against the "Muslim community" than they were concerned about the lives of 18 hostages.

Huh?
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 19 August 2016 12:25:11 PM
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References, please.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 19 August 2016 6:22:59 PM
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Hey ttbn,
None of what you say surprises me at all.
The story (as you lay it out) is actually what I thought had happened from day 1.
From the very first day I heard (or read somewhere) the cops shot hostages as they entered the cafe.
I watched it happen live and thought right then they were too gung-ho and likely killed people going in.
My feeling as it unfolded was that they were more concerned with further Islamic terrorist attacks and tip-toed around taking him out.

Even the testimony from the police talking about the 'offender's rights', well it sounded like they were covering up their own incompetence.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/lindt-siege-inquiry-youre-an-absolute-disgrace/news-story/94bf6695ccf888fa827fd2ae7ee72cef

Apparently they declined help from the military too I heard somewhere as well, did anyone else hear that?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 19 August 2016 7:31:15 PM
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AC,

Yes. They decided against using the military.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 19 August 2016 8:14:59 PM
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Is Mise,

"The Australian"
Centre for Independent Studies
Reports from inquest an evidence od A. Scipione and C. Burn.

All public knowledge
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 19 August 2016 8:46:50 PM
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Welcome to the new world of the limp wrist brigade, nothing like the feather duster approach hey!

Unfortunately we have built our nest so we now have to lie in it. We are incapable of making the simplest decisions for fear of upsetting the likes of the queers, or half a dozen Aborigines living in some remote community thinking that's sustainable.

We cant vote for anyone with balls, because they get chucked out, and our fallen war veterans must be turning in their graves to think they sacrificed their lives for their country, only to have it turn out like this.

Its time to bring back the biff!
Posted by rehctub, Saturday, 20 August 2016 6:13:50 AM
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AC,

"From the very first day I heard (or read somewhere) the cops shot hostages as they entered the cafe."

Now you don't really mean that, do you?
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 20 August 2016 9:39:09 AM
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Actually I think you will find the bullet that killed the lawyer was a deflection, not a direct hit.

The whole problem with this situation is that if not for our limp wristed approach to law and order, this grub would have been behind bars, or better still, would have been deported.

It's the law that's the ass, the cops are simply dealing with the fallout. At some point we must stop these grubs from ruining our country, especially the invitees. We are a peace loving nation and have to rid ourselves of this type of 'hate for humanity' garbage they bring with them.
Posted by rehctub, Saturday, 20 August 2016 1:54:43 PM
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Enquiry reveals that top police "missed opportunities" to shoot the gunman holding hostages (and eventually killing two of them) because they were worried more about possible backlashes against the "Muslim community" than they were concerned about the lives of 18 hostages.

BS, BS, BS, BS, BS, BS, BS, BS, BS,

This bloke was known the Australian gvot for some time. The Irainina Govt have the aus govt a full file on this bloke.

If you listen to one of the tapes of the phone call call from people in the cafa (dunno which one now) and turn the sound right up loud at the end, you will hear someone in the background whisper 'good work' or something to that effect.

Since when have the SAS or TRG been in the business of taking politics into account before deciding to or not to shoot somebody.

This is Pt Arthur all over again.
Posted by Referundemdrivensocienty, Saturday, 20 August 2016 4:46:22 PM
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If Dick Smith got an order for a truckload of Police radios and gear would that have saved the company?
Posted by nicknamenick, Saturday, 20 August 2016 5:29:42 PM
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Ref,

Interesting that you feel that the results of an official enquiry are BS. Perhaps it's the truth that you think is BS?

But you then go on about what they knew about Monis (all true, but several months old), which confirms the stupidity of authorities, and the evidence given at the enquiry you call BS. You seem to be rather confused; that, or you just like to punch out BS several times more than necessary.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 20 August 2016 5:40:57 PM
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we can all be wise in hindsight.

There may be benefits in dissecting this though, as it may
help in knowing in future the way to handle these situations.

The absolute blame in this whole mess, lays at the feet of the parole board.
Every time someone dies when they let one of these twits out on parole
the politicians,say we will look in to it. But it just keeps on happening.

We had a fellow here the other day, who went down the street stabbing people.
He had been let out on parole the day before.

The politicians havent really done anything since Jill Meagher, man ,Monis
to fix the parole boards now have they.

The parents of those two dead children at the Lindt cafe, should be able to bring
a civil law suit againt that parole board. But of course they are protected by the politicians from having that happen. Thus they need not face the consequences of
someone dying because they have let an entirely inappropriate criminal out on the street.
Posted by CHERFUL, Saturday, 20 August 2016 6:02:53 PM
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I am all for full, open and independent inquires into police action whenever it's necessary. The focus of inquiry has moved from the response of those directly involved, to the input of the top brass of the NSW Police force. Naturally, both Burn and Scipione have tried to minimize their involvement, given that there are indication of serious defects within the whole operation "It (command) was a shambles, a shambles of command, control, co-ordination and intelligence." The Coronial Inquiry will get to the truth.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/there-is-a-crisis-of-leadership-in-the-nsw-police-20160818-gqw8f5.html
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 20 August 2016 8:48:55 PM
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A very illuminating article, Paul. It seems that the problems always start at the top in most organisations these days.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 20 August 2016 10:27:48 PM
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"..she stormed out of the inquest with bitter words for a police commander: Youre an absolute disgrace. .."

No I don't agree. They lost emails and dictaphone records. Hillary Clinton did.
Police lost their equipment. So did Obama.
"The United States Army’s finances are so jumbled it had to make trillions of dollars of improper accounting adjustments to create an illusion that its books are balanced.

The Defense Department’s Inspector General, in a June report, said the Army made $2.8 trillion in wrongful adjustments to accounting entries in one quarter alone in 2015, and $6.5 trillion for the year. Yet the Army lacked receipts and invoices to support those numbers or simply made them up."
Things went quite well really.
Posted by nicknamenick, Sunday, 21 August 2016 7:40:58 AM
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ttbn, the problems within the top echelons of the NSW Police force have been obvious and rather deep for some time. There was an ugly split between the Burn camp and Nick Kaldas, both were vying for the top job when Scipione goes, Burn seemed to win that one, and has been in favor with Scipione ever since. The police commissioners job has always been very political in NSW. This inquire could spell the end for both Scipione, who could slip quietly into retirement when it all blows over Worse for Burn as it will most likely sink her aspirations for the top job.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 21 August 2016 9:18:06 AM
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Lets be perfectly clear on one specific issue. NSW Police were perfectly equipped, both with sufficient knowledge and appropriate equipment to end the siege in a timely manner. Then what happened ? Too many cooks, indecision, inappropriate policy (wait it out, rather then 'storm' the premises, thus deflecting the bad publicity that comes with unnecessary bloodshed?).

The operatives on the ground were more than willing and capable of ending the event, but I think it was PAUL1405 who opined 'politics', politics and more politics ! The whole job is stuffed, because of the petty politics that causes many of our bosses from making a decision ! After over 32 years, I could take no more, a great job buggered by a politically driven police command.
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 21 August 2016 1:21:16 PM
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O? Why do you claim "perfectly equipped" ?
A bloke wandered out of a hospital here, walked down a lane carrying a cafe knife and was shot dead before a policeman could spell "politics".
Posted by nicknamenick, Sunday, 21 August 2016 1:50:06 PM
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What in hell you talking about NICKNAMENICK, I've no idea what it is you're trying to say, other than it's probably some criticism, or disparagement towards the coppers ! Spell it pal, and we'll talk about it, OK !
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 21 August 2016 1:57:19 PM
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Posted by anjelikahassan, Monday, 22 August 2016 4:51:26 AM
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o sung wu
Why do you claim the police were perfectly equipped?
A man was shot dead here for standing in a lane with a cafe knife.
Posted by nicknamenick, Monday, 22 August 2016 7:51:02 AM
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I think the cops will try to cover up or at least play down their mistakes, when they mess up.
I had this incident over a decade ago, where myself and housemates were awoken late on a Friday night by a woman at the door.
She was somewhat drunk, did not know where she was and asked to use the phone, so we brought her the phone and let her call someone to pick her up.
While we were waiting for her lift to arrive, I let her come inside to wait.
The man that came to pick her up had issues, and he enters my home without asking when he arrives.
You can tell by looking at someone eyes that they aren't right in the head.
This guy was in the grips of serious speed psychosis (it looked like).
When he comes inside its as if he's casing the place to check how many occupants are home, then he lashes out attacking us screaming "Stay away from the girl". Eventually we force the guy out of the house with a barstool, but not before I get a decent cut across my eyebrow.
Police are called, and I had frequent contact with them over the following months as they update me to the status of the case.
As it turns out the woman was a prostitute and the man had only recently gotten out of jail.
Eventually I get a knock on the door and its the detective that's been keeping me up to date.
He explains that the charges have all been dropped because the offender killed somebody.

I've always wondered whether the case was dropped so there wouldn't have been questions of why he was on the street after being involved in a home invasion and assault causing GBH.
The person who was killed, whoever they were, their family may have had some big questions if this knowledge was known and I assume it would've been embarrassing to the judicial system, who saw fit to give him bail.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 22 August 2016 7:58:14 AM
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o sung wu, I an confident the Coronial Inquiry will get to the bottom of the matter and if there were short comings, from either the operational side or the command side, then hopefully they will be addressed for the future.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 22 August 2016 8:00:13 AM
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nicknamenick,
Which police shooting were you talking about?
Was it this one?
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/hornsby-westfield-shooting-police-open-fire-after-knife-attack-in-mall/news-story/808e06ec7706ccec7ebe16714288738d

The one where an Arabic speaking mental patient who was known to police came at them with a 25cm kitchen knife, and where innocent bystanders were caught in the crossfire?

If you are going to bring some new info into an discussion (seems like you're having an argument) can you at least post a link to whatever the hell you're on about.

Your posts on this thread have been a little erratic, it seems as though you've gone off your meds too.
A lot of the things you mentioned have nothing to do with the topic.
Hillary Clintons emails, US army expenses, Dick Smiths contacts...
What the hell?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 22 August 2016 8:18:54 AM
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The problem with police today is, that rather than learning their trade from the ground up, out on the street, the top jobs all go to university trained criminologists. All too many of these people have very little actual street level copper work to give them the experience they need.

They have been given a left leaning, elitist education, which is where this business of the criminals rights comes from.

All rights must be forfeited when someone starts threatening innocent members of the public. Criminal rights should be limited to a roof over their head in prison.

The same thing is happening in the courts. Feather duster punishment for criminals, & stuff all just6ice for those offended against.

Excessively generous welfare, & no punishment for criminal or antisocial behaviour makes our current system look pretty much like the mobs of Rome era, when that empire was collapsing. Bread & circus is pretty much what we have today. Is our collapse very far off?
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 22 August 2016 9:19:45 AM
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Arm Chair
No I'm not arguing , just asked O Sung a q on facts. The Clinton emails and army equipment thing is satire , irony, humour. known as "joke".
And no, the knife man was in Armidale with no other facts. Just standing still holding a cafe knife , no one around but 2 witnesses at a distance in a car park.
Posted by nicknamenick, Monday, 22 August 2016 9:41:25 AM
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ttbn, as far as I am aware, the Coroner has not yet released their report into into the deaths arising from the Lindt Café siege. Speculation as to who did, or should have done, what and why, does not help. http://www.lindtinquest.justice.nsw.gov.au/

Tom W.
Posted by tomw, Monday, 22 August 2016 10:17:55 AM
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Tom
Are you Russian?
Posted by nicknamenick, Monday, 22 August 2016 11:31:37 AM
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For 'Ch..t' sake give us all the benefit of a reference as to precisely what it is you're talking about NICKNAMENICK ! I get a little precious when some mug comes along and starts berating police when he himself wasn't there, and wouldn't have a fundamental idea what it was that happened. If you attended the Coronial Enquiry then perhaps you can speak with some authority ? However in your case mate, you're simply slinging off at the coppers without knowing any of the facts ! PLEASE provide us all with an accurate reference as to what it is you're complaining about, and then it can be discussed with some modicum of knowledge !

Hi there HASBEEN...

You're quite right. Today too much prominence is placed on academic achievement and not nearly enough on recruiting individuals with common sense and pragmatism. I do accept we do need smart, well educated people, but people who have an abundance of 'street smarts', and common sense would be an absolute bonus.

Don't get me wrong, there are heaps of blokes and women in police command who have what it takes to run any operation. But there are others, who are near the top who are too nervous, and too scared of what the media will say about the way an operation is run.

If they shoot an offender; the police are described as being too gun happy, consequently they're killers! Stand back in an endeavor to 'wait out' an offender; police are considered too indecisive and unable to successfully prosecute the operation, so bring in the Army ?

Damned if you do; damned if you don't ?
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 22 August 2016 12:09:54 PM
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O Sung Wu, your lament sounds all too familiar...the ADF has likewise become "corporatised" "sanitised" and all very touchy feely in recent years. Sadly, like the police in every jurisdiction of our sunburnt land, the upper management is being the puppeteers of politicians

The fact of private soldiers being pilloried as is the case with Commando 'Dave' speaks volumes. The foot soldiers will be given a task...often with a sketchy outline of responsibilities, they will carry out that task to the best of their training and abilities...and then, all too often to be left out to dry.

Coppers on the beat, specialist departments ditto.

The style of management that evidently pervades current corporate thinking and mentality ( I often refer to this as the 'MCDONALDS style') and the "whatever it takes" mentality simply and plainly is not working and needs to be addressed pronto.
Posted by Albie Manton in Darwin, Monday, 22 August 2016 12:10:50 PM
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O Sung Wu
How are you? ABC made these comments, is that news to you?

: An inquest today heard that police negotiators on the night of the Sydney Lindt cafe siege had to work from a cramped city office nearby because their specially fitted, federally funded negotiation truck was out of service.

.
, police established a temporary base 75 metres away at the NSW Leagues Club..
: We got the phone system sorted out, showed them how to use it.

: The telephone line was used as direct contact to the gunman for negotiating.

: Police negotiators were given the gaming manager's office on level one.

.They would rather have been working from their purpose built negotiation truck.

Reg explained that the truck was damaged in 2011 and was still off the road.

The specially built vehicle was eventually sold.

He's involved in getting a replacement.

Reg recalled what the original truck was like to work in.
BRENDAN TREMBATH: Reg noted that their temporary office in the football club was cramped and the phone system inadequate.

Hostages would call in on the gaming manager's phone number.

But if a negotiator happened to be on the phone, the call would be diverted elsewhere in the club.

And Reg explained that the negotiators had only one mobile phone for the team. ...He suggested to Reg that they could have used the mobile to make outgoing calls, leaving the landline free for calls from the hostages.

REG: It makes sense, yes.

BRENDAN TREMBATH: A police log showed that three calls from a hostage were not answered at 12:30am, 12:32am and 12:37am.

Calls which did get through were recorded on a digital recorder.

But for some reason 12 batches of hostage phone calls were lost.

Reg agreed that either the recorder was not switched on or the calls were accidentally recorded over.

During the 17 hour siege, the negotiators had no direct contact with the gunman Man Monis who made the hostages pass on his demands.
etc
etc
( email suspended 12:42 22/8/2016 )
Nicknamenick led off to cells..
Posted by nicknamenick, Monday, 22 August 2016 12:44:40 PM
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o sung wu,
Steady on ole mate, you'll finish up having a heart attack and that will be the end of rational comment on this site.
I was forced out of the job by 'intelligentsia' also. Sure I choose to collect my 'package' and walk be for I was pushed but it was all down to the rise of academia in the police force and the 'bright lights' that came with it.
Recently the most decorated and effective detective in the Qld Crime Squads was forced to retire because new rules implemented by the 'enlightened' brass said he must retire at age 70.
Remember that the governments are pushing for people to work beyond retirement age.
Forget about "nicknamenick" He'll be ok when he gets back on his meds.
The Lindt Siege was a disaster right from the start.
History shows that military specialist teams facilitate the best outcomes and it is time that the police realized that whilst they may think they are the elite of the elite they bloody well are not.
These soldiers are battle trained, case hardened and disciplined to the nth degree.
These police puppets pose more of a threat to society and is good for the overall picture of policing. They uniform themselves like Idi Armin and the ponce around like actors on a stage.
Look at that policewoman from NSW whom they made the Police Commissioner in Victoria. What a mess.
By the way X Rays have reveled what appears to be 7 bullets or fragments in the body of the woman killed in the siege.
Worked under Delaney,Allen, Hanson and Wood. All show ponies. All politically self centered and all corrupt to the core along with their premiers.
The only decent man was John Avery followed by Peter Ryan.
Promotion by succession is a failure.
Pissed off about the Long Tan celebrations in Vietnam but the it is their country and the can call it the way they see it though I can't help feeling that there some generals in the Vietnamese govern ment with long memories.
Take care mate
ll
Posted by chrisgaff100, Monday, 22 August 2016 12:58:46 PM
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The Coroner and hopefully one day an independent comprehensive operational audit of the department are the two most likely ways that the politicians and police executive might (might being the operative word) be held to account. An audit is just wishful thinking for police officers and for the public. So the Coroner is it.

In the interim, it is worth remembering the delegated powers and the handsome salaries and benefits enjoyed by the senior executive and political knobs concerned. Of course, none of them would ever regard themselves personally as being among the always overpaid, politically-correct sycophants in public administration.

It is not as though ALL politicians and police executive were unaware of the mounting terrorist threat and the need for state-of-the-art communications, protocols and training.
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 22 August 2016 1:33:04 PM
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"The only decent man was John Avery followed by Peter Ryan"

Fair comment.

Peter Ryan was a highly skilled (which includes the practical application of his learning), courageous public servant (meant in the thankful public's and text book understanding of the term, ie the diametrical opposite to the expectations of leftist 'Progressives'), who was shafted by sinister interests in the police force and beyond.

If there ever was a good reason for a Royal Commission...
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 22 August 2016 1:49:49 PM
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nicknamenick" He'll be ok when he gets back on his meds.
how many of yous are police residents of nursing homes for the politically demented? show of hands please.
my posts were from coroner courts , straight facts which are obvious to all law-abiding perpetrators. wot's the problem?
Posted by nicknamenick, Monday, 22 August 2016 1:59:32 PM
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Whether it be a maccas drive through, a local hardware store, or a government department, incompetent workers are everywhere you turn today, many of which are protected under absurd Ir laws, making them literally untouchable, so we had best get used to it I'm afraid. I'm afraid incompetence is the new norm.

Ad to this the politically correct world of 'gee, I must make sure I don't step on somone's dick' attitude, and you have the world we live in today.

The minute a person holds a gun to another's head, they should be shot at the first chance, no exceptions.

The minute you remove the rights of another, you forego your own rights.
Posted by rehctub, Monday, 22 August 2016 2:14:37 PM
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The minute a person holds a gun to another's head, they should be shot at the first chance, no exceptions.
could you say that again? not sure how you mean it
Posted by nicknamenick, Monday, 22 August 2016 2:24:52 PM
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Hi there ALBIE of beautiful 'ol Darwin...

I realise there are many problems in all police forces, but by and large most working coppers, whether GD's or detectives do their best to interdict crime in a our communities and sometimes they simply fail, after all they're human too.

You're right when you say the ADF are suffering the same or similar problems as the coppers. The Chief of the ADF who was (amazingly) awarded the 'Australian of the Year' was so proud of the fact that, he'd stamped out all gender discrimination within the ADF ? Well that's very nice for him I'm sure. And gender equality is important, without doubt.

But what about all the male (am I permitted to mention the word 'male'?), just in case I'll rephrase that OK; what about the majority of those in the ADF, don't they have just as important needs? New equipment, better logistic management, superior body armour etc, and a thousand and one other equally important matters that need the Chief of the ADF's immediate attention !

I'm only guessing ALBIE, are you by chance a member of one of the Services up there in Darwin ? Take care ol' mate.
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 22 August 2016 3:46:16 PM
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I seem to recall from news reporting at the time that the unhinged perp was demanding to speak to the Prime Minister but Abbott declined to come to the phone. Too important? How would THAT knockback have affected the perp and made things easier for the hostages and the police?
Posted by EmperorJulian, Monday, 22 August 2016 3:46:21 PM
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Hi there CHRISGAFF100...

Where have you been mate, I've missed your steadying hand, and you're right I should let the likes of NICKNAMENICK go through to the keeper.

But you know as well as I, when people throw the 'proverbial' at coppers, especially those who were never there, and have never worn blue, it does get up one's nose, when some pretender denigrates the superb reputations of some bloody good coppers. Every copper who took part in the Lindt Cafe operation, did his or her best, I believe !

Speaking of august leaders Chris, you must have been well senior to me, serving under Col DELANEY ? I joined after my Army service, under Wally MELLISH'S mate, the inimitable N.T.W. ALLAN (aka Norman the foreman). I can't argue with you concerning 'evidence of bad character' with many of our mighty leaders, though old Cecil Roy ABBOTT wasn't too bad, treated us in the old CIB really well.

That was pretty mean spirited I thought, there had been many weeks of careful planning and preparation that went into the Long Tan tribute, and to dash their hopes, Veterans from 'both sides' and their families at the 11th hour, well what do you expect from a Communist Government, notwithstanding we give 'em squillions in foreign aid !

Good to speak with you again Chris, stay in touch.
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 22 August 2016 4:23:22 PM
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EmperorJulian,

Too much Hollywood.
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 22 August 2016 4:23:41 PM
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nicknamenick, Its simply another way of saying ZERO TOLLERENCE.
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 23 August 2016 2:08:53 PM
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I know but maybe you missed the point if not the target
Posted by nicknamenick, Tuesday, 23 August 2016 3:02:23 PM
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Hey rehctub,
"The minute a person holds a gun to another's head, they should be shot at the first chance, no exceptions."

I think I'm pretty good at finding pro's and con's for most arguments.
I can find pro's and con's on almost every topic, except pedophilia.
(Not even looking for any pro's there)

As a child my mum even used to say I argued for the sake of it.
I doubt anyone will be surprised... anyway, back to the topic.

What if it's a ruse?
What if the person holding the other person hostage is only pretending, and has no intention of harming the other person, as they are both in it together?
- Yeah I know, sometimes I take the pro's and con's too far...

Hey EmporerJulian,
Another aspect to the Lindt Seige if I recall correctly was that there were reports on the day that bombs were planted all over the city.
This could've been another reason for the Police's reluctance to act and end the seige sooner.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 23 August 2016 3:04:46 PM
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With hindsight.. Channel 7 studios are opposite Lindt. First check if there's a TV in the cafe , if not, good. Send a fake TV show by vid to the cafe phone with Islam Rules by M Monis with cheers and applause . Rush up dud commercials, quality won't be noticed and say he's a world star with 3 years free flights to Mecca and his own TV host show.
Monsi walks quietly from cafe and signs autographs.
Posted by nicknamenick, Tuesday, 23 August 2016 4:35:01 PM
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One thing that is clear from the inquest (and was also apparent from the TV coverage) was that the police were over armed for the operation.
Firing the rounds that they used, in a confined space with marble walls, was a recipe for disaster.

There is ammunition designed for situations such as the Lyndt siege, but it is expensive.....!
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 23 August 2016 5:13:37 PM
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Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 23 August 2016 5:13:37 PM
" ... There is ammunition designed for situations such as the Lyndt siege, but it is expensive.....! ... "

What ammunition would that be *Is Mise* and how expensive is it exactly?

And what value is placed on the lives of the hostages when it comes to choosing whether to use the best kit or not (assuming a choice is permissable?)
Posted by DreamOn, Tuesday, 23 August 2016 8:12:44 PM
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38 Special Rubber Bullets, 38 Special Less than lethal ammunition, 38 ...
www.conceptsinammunition.com/Pistol_Products/38cal.htm
38 Special Rubber Bullets, 38 Special Less than lethal ammunition, 38 Special plastic bullets, 38 Special safety ammo, 38 caliber Rubber ... Price - $ 9.45 ...
Posted by nicknamenick, Tuesday, 23 August 2016 9:29:21 PM
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Glaser Safety Slugs for pistols will kill the targeted one with minimal danger to those in the close vicinity, but they cost $US1.60 or so each.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 23 August 2016 10:42:47 PM
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I know they are "expensive" at $1.60 each, but with some budget modifications, and fiscal restraint, NSW might be able to afford say two.
p/s Is there any discount for buying two or more?
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 24 August 2016 8:45:50 AM
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I do not know

(but it seems some details are in the public domain)

but were they using other firearms apart from pistols and are there safety slugs available for them also?
Posted by DreamOn, Wednesday, 24 August 2016 9:06:43 AM
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o sung wu,
I came into the job just as Delaney was leaving around 1961 or 62. But he live in Milson's Point
and was a mate of my father who had a few no bills generated through the man.
Any corruption in the job is bad regardless of how petty it is.
The Vietnam war came along and off I went believing I was doing the right thing. Silly me.
So I read now mate that there are more guns in the country now than there were when they
recalled them. Some bloke up here got busted with an AK 74 in his garage.
Said it was for protection against Islamic State infiltrators. I wonder where he got it.
Posted by chrisgaff100, Wednesday, 24 August 2016 9:46:08 AM
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Herter's® Defense 12-ga. Rubber Buckshot

Rubber buckshot for nonlethal self-defense and animal deterrence. Not for use in semiautomatic shotguns. Loaded in Italy to the highest standards in consistency and reliability, Herter’s has the perfect load for home defense or practice at the range. Using high-quality powder, shot and hulls, these unique loads deliver excellent dependability and performance at an affordable price. Per 10.
$5 shipping on orders of $99.
that's 90 cents for Oz, 22 shots at Lindt = $19.80 per terrorist.
Posted by nicknamenick, Wednesday, 24 August 2016 9:47:29 AM
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As the Royal Commission into home insulation was $20mill for 8 months, the Lindt Inquest of 6 months must have been $15 mill.
The cost of explosives at $19.80 was worth 13.152 seconds of the Inquest. This fits well with 12.48 seconds for women's 100 metre hurdles at Rio and 13.05 seconds for men's 100 metre hurdles. The gun used is harmless pistol cost unknown.
Posted by nicknamenick, Wednesday, 24 August 2016 10:28:39 AM
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Nothing suprising about the seige itself. Authorities thought or presumed Australia is a world away from overseas events of the likes of this. Hence, the lack of training in dealing with specialised incidents such as the Lindt cafe scenario.

This was echoed by UK security experts whom have had experience dealing with the likes of IRA rebels before "Terrorism" became a popular word this century.
Posted by Rojama, Wednesday, 24 August 2016 12:54:00 PM
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Feb 22, 2010 - Kevin Rudd says Australians are now under a permanent and increased threat of attack from homegrown terrorists.
Posted by nicknamenick, Wednesday, 24 August 2016 1:00:59 PM
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A 21-YEAR-OLD British backpacker has died after allegedly being stabbed by a French national yelling “Allahu akbar” at a north Queensland hostel.

http://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/crime/woman-dead-after-stabbing-attack-in-home-hill-queensland/news-story/91afbeba8bb3fa6458486099cbb18087

I told you all it would only be a matter of time.
And I told you the do-gooders would be to blame.
Don't we all love Islam...
Posted by Armchair Critic, Wednesday, 24 August 2016 2:10:18 PM
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Hi there CHRISGAFF100...

I heard Colin DELANEY wasn't a bad sort of a bloke, as Commissioners go ? As I stated earlier on, I joined under Norman T.W.ALLAN and as you would remember his notoriety preceded him with his stupidity over silly Wally MELLISH at Glenfield ?

Mate I don't know, Commissioners come and Commissioners go, and it's left to the troops to clean up after each of them. From what I've heard the job's changed inordinately, and most probably neither of us would recognise many of the old squads and faces after so long. Speaking of the QLD. bloke with the AK 74 there's been a big push in NSW, in the interdiction of illegal F/A's brought in by organised Bikie gangs, probably generating more revenue now than 'Ice', though I would be surprised at that ?

I understand your Labour Premier (can't spell the ladies name) is set upon 'decreasing' the powers of police to lock-up Bikies (sorry I'm unsure of the correct title of the legislation)this is after your former Liberal government enacted those powers, and from my understanding have worked superbly ? Buggered if I know Chris ?

Something I was going to ask you Chris - were you ever on the square, when you served down here ? I was admitted on 18/08/81 L. McKAY (of course)!
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 24 August 2016 2:43:50 PM
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o sung wu,

The Wally/Norman saga was a show to beat all shows.

Supposedly the Armalite rifle that he gave Wally Mellish would only fire one shdt and then jam, this "fact" was demonstrated by two scientific blokes the next day to an admiring and gullible press.
A pin was removed from the mechanism and replaced with a piece of a match and the gullibleones were told that because of thid mod it would only fire one shot.
They loaded the magazine and then cycled the action and WOW!! it only fired one shot.....marvelous what can be achieved by a discrete ding or two in a cartridge case!!

Two days later the late Les Crisp, of Smith's Sports Store, gave a demo to the press with an Armalite, he replaced every pin that he could with match sticks and proceeded to fire a full magazine; nary a word ever appeared in print.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 24 August 2016 6:11:47 PM
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Hi there IS MISE...

It was indeed a real fiasco. I wasn't there so I don't know any of the precise facts other than it did irreparable damage to ALLAN'S professional reputation, and made the NSW Police a real laughing stock !

The fact is, in normal course of events, a Commissioner of Police, of any police force, wouldn't and shouldn't (ordinarily) attend such an incident, unless there are compelling reasons to do so. Wally MELLISH was well known to police, and was considered all 'piss and wind', he had a lot of form for crying 'wolf', and making a lot of noise and empty threats. 'Norman the foreman' was well briefed by the incident commander, but he decided nevertheless that he should attend. His call of course ?

I don't know IS MISE, what I would've done if it were down to me ? Given MELLISH was all noise, he did have his 'on again, off again' wife/girlfriend in the house with him, so they couldn't very well risk her safety, given that silly WALLY did possess a F/A or weapon of sorts. That was prior to ALLAN arriving, and offering him a selection of arms that might suit him better ? To 'muck around' with Wally's weapon, was a must, to do otherwise would've proved culpable should someone lose their life as a consequence.

I must say IS MISE, you've got a very good memory, for something so long ago ? I knew the Reverend who attended, quite well, as he was the official Anglican Minister for Long Bay, but for the life of me, I can't recall his name ? 'Clyde' something or other, from memory, too long ago I'm afraid ?
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 24 August 2016 8:56:57 PM
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o sung wu,

I think that you missed my point, mate.
The Armalite was doctored the day after Wally surrendered.
The second round in the magazine was dented/bent so that it wouldn't feed and thus cause the desired stoppage.

Moorebank Area Sargents' Mess was a 'watering hole' for the local police and a couple of them (ex-Korea) told us that Wally was firing the Armalite in their direction the night of the day that Allen gave it to him; both were of the opinion that the Commissioner should have been charged with numerous offences.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 24 August 2016 9:22:59 PM
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Hi (again) IS MISE...

Indeed I did miss your point, badly it would seem ! I wasn't aware of that ? You can appreciate IS MISE the coppers are not unlike the Army, the whole joint can be a rumour mill, and just after the whole business, we all knew that ALLAN had a serious amount of egg on his face, but the specifics of which, were not known by the rank and file, as I indicated more rumour than fact I'm afraid.

Could you imagine had MELLISH actually fired at some poor bastard, and killed them, the headline would read '...NSW Police Commissioner, charged as an accessory to murder...' ! Wow, they'd sell a few papers I reckon ? All joking aside, the whole incident was shockingly handled when you think about it. And to hand over a functioning, high velocity rifle, to a convicted felon - the stuff of a horror movie I reckon.
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 24 August 2016 9:48:38 PM
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Butch, Oh Sung Wu.

1957 vs. 2017.

Scenario 1:
Robbie, a year 5/6 won't sit still in class and is disrupting other students.

1957-Robbie is sent to off to the school office and is given ‘6 of the best’ by the Principal. Returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.

2017-Robbie is given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie. Tested for ADHD, undergoes therapy and the school gets extra money from state government because Robbie has a “disability”.

A special rubber lined “quiet room” is installed at the school and kids who need basic supplies are denied because of the cost of this.

Scenario 2:
Billy breaks a window on his neighbour's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.

1957-Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college, and becomes a successful businessman.

2017-Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy is removed to foster care and joins a gang. The government psychologist, a 20 yr old post graduate, tells Billy's sister that she remembers being abused at age 8, so their dad gets hauled off to prison. Billy's mom has affair with the psychologist who ‘outs’ 6 months later, declaring he is a bi-sexual Vegan Harp Seal.

Scenario 3:
Faisal fails year 10 English.

1957-Faisal’s mum & dad work their holidays to get him extra tuition over the school break. He repeats year 10 and graduates 3 years later as Dux of the high school. 4 years later he enters his articles of clerkship as a solicitor with a prestigious Sydney law firm.

2017-Faisal's cause is taken up by an ethnic rights group. Newspaper articles appear nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist.

Rights group files a class action lawsuit against state school system and Faisal's English teacher. English is banned from school’s core curriculum. His English teacher never teaches again.

Faisal is given a school leaving certificate anyway & gives up studies altogether. Ends up in a factory in Auburn sweeping floors for a living, because he cannot speak English.
Posted by Albie Manton in Darwin, Thursday, 25 August 2016 12:40:25 PM
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o sung wu,
Mate I thought his name was Irwin (Captain, Salvation Army) gay as a rabbit and loved by all the
'Blackhats' from the 'gangsters' to the gongsters'. Always had a cigarette for the cells under Central and a good word for the crims in Court.
Wally used him like he did with anyone he came in contact with.
Me, I'd have sniped him with the 223 Remington's they had back then.
No I never made "the square"
You realise that Morey and Rogerson were the leads in the Glenfield fiasco and Roger gets "the lot" today.
Posted by chrisgaff100, Thursday, 25 August 2016 1:51:30 PM
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BUTCH, please stop it ! You're making me very depressed with your factual precis of what's now happening in this unabridged 'over regulated' Country of ours ! We're absolutely suffocating in this mire of petty regulation, it's like we're all tiptoeing through a never-ending minefield of this damned political correctness !

Whatever happened to the great Nation we once were, where we could have a cold one after work, play a game of social cricket on a hot sunny day at the local oval, or kick a footy around in a game of 'touch' during winter months ? Say what we thought, to friends and family without the mortal fear of being overheard and sued. Settle a 'stink' with a work colleague (despite his or your rank)by having a blue in the car park, after your shift ? Indeed Butch, that's the Australia I love, and would do anything for. Mate I'm buggered if I know !
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 25 August 2016 2:14:26 PM
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I think that we can be confident that the 'ordinary' cop on the scene knows what he should do, and would like to do it. But, he does not know, from one minute to the next, what his highly politicised superiors want him to do. Police forces don't yoke themselves with the PC BS of the day; politicians do it to them, via the top brass, who have an eye out for good jobs when they retire. It is, therefore, naive to believe that our police forces are not driven by political requirements. It is not the rank and file police who, in the main, we should be grateful to for their willingness to do a dangerous job on our behalf; no, the rot is at the top.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 25 August 2016 3:53:35 PM
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o sung wu,

There was a little parody on the song "Frankie and Johnny" that went the rounds of the Sydney folk song venues just after the siege.

It was allegedly written by a constable who was at Glenfield but who, understandably, chose to remain unknown!!

The chorus went,

"Norman gave Wally a rifle, an Armalite I hear,
The only thing Wally couldn't get was fresh supplies of beer.
He was their man, an he did do wrong."

That's all that I remember except that one verse did allude to Beryl marrying Wally in the hopes of an early qualification for the Widow's Pension.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 26 August 2016 8:25:30 PM
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Hi there IS MISE...

I did reply to your last message but I've been having a lot of trouble getting through. Whenever I wish to 'Post Comment' I receive a message saying 'server failure', so I'm buggered if I know old friend. Anyway I'll give it another go and see what happens ?

I really like that little 'ditty' sort of suits the occasion I reckon. Poor ol' Beryl she was silly as a snake as well, I've no idea what happened to them both - suppose I should first ring 'CentreLink' they'd know for sure. Sorry, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit ? Many thanks IS MISE.
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 27 August 2016 8:27:25 PM
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