I watched 4 Corners this evening, 25/07/2016.
I'm still very upset by what I saw.

Did any one else see the program?

What are your reactions and what should be done
about what was shown?

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2016/07/25/4504895.htm

Just noted on twitter by an ABC journo who tweeted - "in the last 10 minutes the PM has announced a RC will be established."

"Malcolm Turnbull has announced a royal commission into the treatment of children in juvenile detention in the Northern Territory after revelations of abuse at the Don Dale detention facility in Berrimah, outside Darwin.

The prime minister told ABC’s AM that like all Australians he was “deeply shocked ... and appalled” at the abuse, revealed on Four Corners on Monday.

Turnbull said there was “no question” about the mistreatment of young people as recently as 2014."

"Turnbull noted there had been other inquiries which had examined the Don Dale centre that had not turned up such evidence, so a a royal commission was needed to determine how it had been allowed to continue.

Turnbull said he had met the Northern Territory chief minister, Adam Giles, and the federal attorney general, George Brandis, and decided a royal commission was necessary to compel testimony and evidence from witnesses."

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/jul/26/malcolm-turnbull-announces-royal-commission-northern-territory-detention?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet

We watched the 'Four Corners' program, it was shocking in its exposure. Given what was shown on TV, Turnbull had no other alternative than a Royal Commission into the Juvenile Justice system in the NT.
There are members of the MT Country Liberals Government who need to be held to account.

Yes it was truly awful. If any of us had treated our children like that we would be jailed for assault and child abuse.
I don't see the point of a Royal Commision though. There was plenty of evidence of assault on the video that should result in convictions of those responsible asap.

I watched it and it was appalling.

Suse,

The video may not be admissible evidence in a Court of Law, much would depend on how it was obtained, but a royal Commission has sweeping powers that should get to the bottom of this.

Your right Suse, if these boys were from a Sydney private school and treated that way there would be no RC just a few hangings. Both Adam Giles and his scum bucket of a minister John Elferink should resign immediately.
Can't wait for the forums 'Usual Suspects' to rush to the defense of the rabid right NT Country Liberal government, with calls of "law and order". The NT government was well aware of what was going on in the juvenile justice system. The fact that most of the children involved are Aboriginal might have a lot to do with their lack of action.

Thank You for your responses and I am relieved
that a Royal Commission is to follow. Hopefully
this will result in action being taken and not
just in reports and more delays and excuses.
People need to
be held to account for their actions. These draconian
evil centres
need to be closed down immediately - and the staff
responsible need to be sacked. No excuses.

I am intersested to know what people think should be done to teenagers who have committed numerous ádult crimes and then are bent on causing havoc in whatever institution they are in. This includes self harm, suicide and harm to others and complete destruction of property. I have met many of these kids and feel very sorry for them. Personally I think the aboringal community has a lot to answer for. These kids are brought into the world and not taken care of despite bucket loads of money being given out. Many of them are generational criminals unfortunatley starting at a very young age. Amother 'stolen 'generation as abhorrent as it is to some might reduce the problem. PLenty of fingers being pointed with no answers except another enquiry.

I saw the promo but didn't watch it as it seemed to be just another ABC bashing of Australia and Australians. The ABC is so biased against everyone except it's favourite lefties (they would not have gone into this if Barnacle Bill was PM), that they have lost the ability to speak to 70% of Australians, who might well have been as disgusted and upset by whatever went on as were last night's viewers. The more the ABC ignores the majority of Australians, the less effective it becomes. Don't put too much on a Royal Commission.

Very distressing, but just the visible tip of the iceberg.

Once inside, of course children should be treated properly and sensitively. But surely there must be an investigation of why so many (presumably Aboriginal?) kids in the NT are confined in the first place. And that has to provoke the questions of why and how so many kids work their way through the system from the commission of crimes, to arrest, to trial, to incarceration. And why the committing of crimes in the first place ?

But once inside, it seems that little is done for the kids but to let them eke out each day bored sh!tless, or maybe playing footy. So they will come out no better prepared for social living than they were when they went in, except perhaps a bit more crime-savvy.

100-150 years ago, the various state systems recognised the links between poverty and crime (such as they are) by lumping destitute kids with those who had committed crimes, in 'Industrial Schools', or Reformatories. Ghastly places by all accounts, but some had training programs in place, so that there was the chance that kids could come out with at least some skills. One suspects that such 'programs' were little more than crap-job work programs.

My dear old grandmother was born in the Sculcoates Workhouse, Hull, in 1902. Barnado's took her out when she was maybe seven or eight, put her and another girl in a foster home in Kent, and ensured that she gained a trade, namely bookkeeping. She did that, and other goy work for the strictly observant family of Lord Samuels, founder of Shell and former Lord Mayor of London.

But back to the NT, 2016: my bet is that most of those kids are illiterate. So what good would be achieved if they come out still illiterate, or no better educated/trained than they were when they went in ? How about this for a crazy idea:

[TBC]

[continued]

* that such institutions offer rigorous literacy, numeracy and technical education programs to all inmates, on the condition that they would be released as soon as they finished a course AND that they enrol in specific courses equivalent to half the length of their sentences.

So, let's say a kid is in for two years, BUT if he finishes a one-year course, he's out. If he's in for a very serious crime, incurring say ten years, then he finishes five years of study and he's free.

Of course, courses should be graded so that nobody can do the same course (it happens) or the same-level course over and over. It's onward and upwards, or stay in the playground with your footy.

We can curse the darkness, or we can light a candle, as Marx wrote in Thesis 11.

Joe

This TTBN bloke sees something that the majority of Australians do not. He has an attitude to the ABC which he has said he does not watch. I don't know how he can say the ABC is biased. News has to happen to be news. How can you see bias in that.

To say that if Bill was PM we would not know about it. His mind works in ways that presume bias exist with everything ABC.

To do such a thing someone has had a tip off as to what was happening in the NT. That is not bias.

The whole staff should be suspended immediately and replacement staff
flown in from different states.
That done no chance of a mates coverup.

Doog, anyone who thinks the ABC is not biased is wearing rose coloured glasses.
As I said before, my son worked there for years from a teenager.
The first day he went to work he was told, don't let on how you vote
if you are a Liberal voter, or pretend you vote Labour, if you want a career here.
It was still like that recently. The closet does not hold gays at the ABC it holds Liberal voters !

Interesting to note that the Human Rights Commissioner Jillian Triggs herself has quoted: "...the rule of law..." should apply. Something the parliamentarians of all creeds, colours, sexual preferences and political persuasions of recent times seem to have forgotten.

The creeping fascism that has been the modus operandi in the NT and indeed federally for many years now is now "outed" in the form of human rights abuses within our own prisons & from within our injustice systems.

The systematic torture at Guantanamo as evidenced in the capture, incarceration, and denial of human rights of another Australian citizen, David Hicks is also documented.

The ongoing travesty of ignoring common law rights, & ongoing breaches of human rights inside detention centres at Manus Island.

Let us not forget another Australian Citizen holding out at the Ecuadorian embassy in London.

For those who see differently let us imagine the words of Pastor Martin Niemoller...

"First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me...

for I am an Aboriginal, I am the boy from Bagot Community who stole your neighbours pushbike last night and here I am on TV ...naked,hooded, alone and abused by the authorities who say THEY uphold justice."

'for I am an Aboriginal, I am the boy from Bagot Community who stole your neighbours pushbike l

twisting the truth helps no one Albie. Kids who end up in these places have had numerous other soft touch programs. Many of them have very violent histories. To distort that helps no one.

Runner...I am that aboriginal kid who stole your bike...back in the 1960's. The copper who gave me the swift kick in the ar*e & then sent me on my way, later coming by after his shift had finished and speaking to my parents passed away in 2012. Jim is gone, along with the ethos and kindness we had in the Darwin community. Jim was one of the last NT Coppers to do the camel patrols in the Gulf Country.

As it turned out I ended up renting a place 3 doors up from where he had retired in Karama. So it goes in life, we spent many happy afternoons discussing life and work. Like the RSM's who similarly shaped me into a half decent human being during my Army career it is sad that society has degenerated into its current state. Yes to distort the truth means we can bend it just a bit more each time...until we end up with something like Germany in the 1930's perhaps ?

No doubt of it Runner there are some rather sick and twisted human beings - on both sides of the barbed wire at Don Dale.

Runner, do you think that because of the probably plenty of criminal acts these minors have committed in the community that they deserve what they got in the videos we viewed?
What do think is reasonable punishment for underage children then?

Ignoring ttbn's beyond twisted commentary....

This stuff has been known for quite sometime in the NT.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-26/the-nt-has-known-about-juvenile-mistreatment-for-years/7661124

"The NT has known about mistreatment of juveniles for years. So why has nothing happened?"

"There have been two very consistent responses from the Northern Territory Government over the years I've been covering this story.

The first has been 'nothing to see here, there are no problems, we're dealing with them, we're addressing them'.

But over the top of that response has always been this very strong message from NT Corrections Minister John Elferink, and to a lesser extent from NT Corrections boss Ken Middlebrook up until late last year, that we're not to feel too sorry for the young men in Don Dale because they are bad kids, tough kids, they've done terrible things to people in the community."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-26/the-nt-has-known-about-juvenile-mistreatment-for-years/7661124

As usual, it takes graphic pictures and video exposed to the nation for the outrage to surface.

I mean tell me that why when this was published, no-one said er..um...don't you think that's a bit Guantanamo?

"The use of restraint chairs on children in custody in the Northern Territory can be used in particular circumstances, after laws were passed in Parliament.

The Youth Justice Amendment Bill 2016 clarifies the type of restraints that can be used on juvenile offenders, including the use of special cable ties called flex cuffs."

""[This legislation] provides extra rigour in terms of the sorts of the equipment that can be used [to restrain] juveniles from either harming themselves, harming other inmates, or harming staff," Mr Elferink said."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-26/restraint-chairs-with-cable-ties-approved-for-use-on-nt-youths/7448460

Mr Elferink being the fella who has just been unceremoniously booted from the portfolio of Correctional Services...although is still in charge of five portfolios - Attorney General and Minister for Justice, Minister for Children and Families, Minister for Health, Minister for Disability Services, Minister for Mental Health Services.

'Runner, do you think that because of the probably plenty of criminal acts these minors have committed in the community that they deserve what they got in the videos we viewed?
What do think is reasonable punishment for underage children then? '

Susie

One of these young ones had bashed their mother, tried to run over a policeman and committed numerous other crimes. These are very much adult crimes. I have lived in areas with this stuff happening on a regular basis.

I have personally witnesed young teenagers going beserk. In the light of deaths in custody and the willingness to damage themselves, damage others and refuse all instruction I am unaware of what other options are left. Do we allow these offenders to run the show?

In saying that it is very distressing to see young adults treated like animals even though they behave like them. I have no easy answer but I know it is not to demonise all those working in these horrible environments. The problems started a long time before the kids became criminals. Aborignal leadership is severely lacking although myriads put up their hands for high paid Governement jobs to do nothing but criticise while collecting fat cheques. Some ownership would be refreshing to say the least.

btw Susie I have met the occassional Indigenous person who agrees with me.

'No doubt of it Runner there are some rather sick and twisted human beings - on both sides of the barbed wire at Don Dale.'

appreciate your balanced view Albie and their are no winners in being right in this one. The old adage though that only truth can set a person free. I worked as a screw in Goulburn 35 years ago. We had good officers and a few very bad apples. I would hate the job today.

This is what the juvie guards are facing. A kid (one of many) who

'A court later heard that Voller, then a slightly built teen, ran bare-chested at the man, yelling “you fat white racist dog. You yelled at us”.

this was before bashing the innocent man unconscious. The ingrain racism in these offenders is pitiful.

'Justice Barr noted that the 16-year-old had a very troubled past, dating back to when he was an 11-year-old and had committed more than 50 offences, including crimes of violence, over five years.'

the list goes on and on. Imagine having to watch over dozens of these offenders. Yes they are victims but very dangerous victims. The greatest deterrent would of been caring parents at a young age. Few for reasons not allowed to be discussed get that.

It seems that you did not ignore my "twisted commentary", Poirot.

Putting you to one side, what sympathy I have left will reside with the aged patient in my own city, suffering from Alzheimers' in an Adelaide nursing home, having a steel spoon jammed cruelly into his mouth because he was slow to eat; having his nose twisted savagely with a cloth while being suffocated, then being cuffed around the head from both sides of his bed by his 'carer'. All plain to see via a camera planted in the room by the victim's daughter. And, when she took evidence of what she had suspected had been going on for some time to commandant of this prison camp posing as a care home, she was accused of offending against the Privacy Act. That's how much the carers cared. Of course, she went to the police, but the best the court could do was give the sadistic perpetrator 10 months jail.

So, do I need tell you where you weeping willies where can put your concern about young feral thugs, who didn't need to get themselves into trouble in the first place?

Well call me a racists but I hope the funding for any RC comes from the indigenous budget.

We give these people billions, allow them the freedom they fought for to run their own lives and all of a sudden their out of control kids are our fault.

While I don't think the treatment of any children in this manner is acceptable, the other side of the story would most likely be that they are immune to what we consider to be normal treatment.

Talk about caught between a rock and a hard place and of cause we dare not intervene for reasons not in need of an explanation.

As far as I am aware they don't treat adult criminals like this in Australia do they?
Is it because these kids are smaller and less likely to complain if threatened, that they use 3 big adult men to rush in to a small teenagers cell to jump on him, restrain him, and then strip him naked and run out?

It sounds like bullying tactics to me. If it were allowable for criminal behaviours, why don't they try it on the adult criminals?
Because these guards/carers are gross, abusive bullies who would be scared to try it on someone of their own size, and should be locked up themselves with much larger guards in attendance who believe in physical punishments

The disgusting attitude of some posters of the rabid right is typical. Brutalizing of socially disadvantaged children is acceptable? You don't treat a dog the way these children have been treated. Then you have to ask why they are criminals.
Like their parents before them, most of these children never had a chance in life from day one. Neglected, and mistreated from the start, where were these kids going to end up? In the hands of the state where society expected that as a last resort the system would offer some hope of rehabilitation, but when compassion was required, brutality was delivered. Once more the system has failed our kids.

I thought that the story contained glaring omissions about the context of decisions.

The violence of the guards was nothing compared to what some young people are capable of and most of this violence is directed at other inmates. While the cells were too small, I agree with placing particularly violent inmates in solitary confinement.

They cannot have running water because they will flood their cell.

They have to strip highly escalated teenagers, because they can self-harm. The guards have to get in, get the clothes off and get out, because it is the only safe way. They can have a chat to the teenager when they calm down.

We need a mature discussion about a complex issue.

There are good reasons why they use spit hoods and there are good reasons why some young people are not trusted with cutlery. I am aware of another juvenile detention centre where young people who stand up with cutlery in their hands are taken to the floor. Guards have to protect children from each other. What some children lack in size, they make up for in anger and cunning.

The dispute over the phone could have been avoided with an automatic timer.

Juvenile detention gets young people in a routine of going to bed on time, getting up and doing something with their day. They might not keep it up when they get out, but some will. They eat proper food and get the medical attention they need.

'Because these guards/carers are gross, abusive bullies who would be scared to try it on someone of their own size, and should be locked up themselves with much larger guards in attendance who believe in physical punishments'

I suspect strongly Susie that their are far more bully nurses in old peoples homes than there are bully guards.

Yes, Suse and paul.

I don't know about you but for me it's becoming increasingly difficult to peruse this site....the right-wing racist element has burst out of its relative torpor and is now in full uninformed, uncultured and ignorant excrescence up and down the threads.

As someone said in the other section, he stopped coming here because he felt dirty after every visit.

One has to draw the line somewhere.

Think my days here are numbered.

Dear Poirot,

I couldn't agree with you more. My days here are
definitely numbered. The haters are taking over this
forum and that's a shame because they're getting worse.
And I can't begin to imagine what people from overseas
must be thinking about some of the comments posted.

I've also been advised that this forum is having a bad
effect on my health. I get so distressed by the ugliness
of much of what I read lately. And who needs that in their
lives?

Agreed Poirot. I have had enough now too. But I am not sure where to go next. I didn't take to Twitter as well as I thought I would.

People like runner on this site resort to having a personal attack against my profession in order to feel big about themselves and their disgusting views.

Runner, for your ignorant information, there are barely any nurses in residential care facilities now, because the Govt doesn't want to pay wages for professional care of our elderly. While I acknowledge there are good and bad nurses amongst us, the person in question at present is a carer....he is NOT a nurse of any sort.

At least the kids in these sorts of facilities have more of a chance at life than the poor kids abused by religious clergy in church-run institutions in the recent past. The latest allegations against the Angican church clergy in NSW at present are particularly sickening. Their victims end up with a lifetime of mental health sicknesses, alcoholism and relationship difficulties, to name just a few of their problems.

I wish that we could simply give
To this beautiful country (and planet) on which we live
But unless the hatred drops and falls
We may not have a country (and planet) at all.

(apologies to Ogden Nash).

Comrade Poirot,

You would, of course, blame others for your dummy spit, but the plain fact is that you lefties can give it, but you can't take it. Your theories are so threadbare. Even on a thread which has nothing to do with race (was it even mentioned; did I miss something?) you are blathering on about 'right wing racists'. You are obsessed with race.

The biggest irritants for me are people like you and other left wing idealogues who simply cannot accept that your constant sneering at, and berating of, people who don't see things your way is not going to convert them to your way of thinking. You are not a messiah with a message. You are just another poster with opinions, just like me and everyone else. If you think you can break down other peoples' opinions by calling them names, you are naive. If you think you can change the minds of mature adults who have the ability to think for themselves, you are out of your tree. If you want people to be all the same, go to North Korea where they don't get a choice.

Your dummy spit, and those others of your kind who can't cope with different opinions are wasting your time 'threatening' to leave. You wouldn't be missed any more than the rest of us would be if we didn't have what it takes say what we think, and stand by it. You really should get over yourself.

Foxy & Suzie,
If you are leaving because you don't like comments like
mine about the Islamic problem then I think your attitude is too
intolerant for the problems we are facing.
You can adopt the politician/ABC/Media attitude to the various problems
that are coming over the horizon and pretend that all is well,
nothing to see here nudge nudge wink wink all is well, so best that
you leave the worrying to those of us that are looking at reality.

You perhaps should leave if it is just too much for you as you will be
in good company with all those politicians.

Sorry Poirot I meant to add your name also to that last post.
If you are all leaving goodbye been nice exchanging barbs with you all.
Best wishes.

It is quite impossible that with the review and extensive advocacy services that complaints haven't been lodge and investigated previously. I am wondering what the results of those complaints were, since any that were upheld in courts would have been used by the ABC to boost its report.

Of course if complaints were not upheld, then that would also be taken by tabloid journalists of 'proof positive'(sic) of 'gubbermint' wrongdoing. Heads they win and tails they win too!

Could it be that the treatment that is excessive even over-kill to us is representative of the essential, practical first action steps required to handling offenders? Bearing in mind that the 'child' may be 17 yrs with a history of serious offences.

With coffee, slippers, a comfy gas-operated ergonomic chair and the air-conditioning quietly humming away on warm and coming from occupations that stressed education and trust, it is hard for me to imagine what serious offending would land a youth in gaol. Try as I do to imagine what it must be like for police and prison officers to handle dangerous repeat and drug affected offenders I could never understand what it must be like.

But even with my ignorance of the seamy side of life I know from press reports that even serious crime committed by determined adults does not automatically result in a custodial sentence.

As usual, the trail of innocent lives wrecked, talking about the forgotten victims and their families of these cruel and persistent offenders, is forgotten by the ABC and hand wringers.

That is not to say that ill-treatment of offenders is warranted. Absolutely not, however it is a plea for the ABC not to follow the lead of tabloids and prefer sensationalism, 'shock, horror', over the balance it should demonstrate.

Some discussion of best practice for handling and restraining violent offenders who might self-harm would have been obligatory for balance one would have imagined.

Is there an election in the wind for the NT? There is a rush of 'human rights' stories and Malcolm Turnbull is bending over this way and that.

Well firstly, im going to admit that my previous post was a little over the top.

However, in order to have a balanced discussion about topics, one must be able to accept that all sides of the argument be put on the table, otherwise it is pointless.

It seems that whether we discuss indigenous issues, immigration, both legal or illegal, Muslims/Islam or even welfare, there are those who see what is going on, and those who simply choose to ignore the facts. Of cause it doesn't help when government mi misters and the like also clearly cant see the facts, although I suspect they can, they just choose not to.

My opinion on this type of forum is that unless you are willing to be proven wrong, then you should not contribute because you will only turn to personal insults, or leave.

Let's face it, an opinion is only your view, and if someone can provide credible evidence to disprove your view, then you should accept that.

Hi Poirot, Suse and Foxy.

I understand your sensitivity about the personal attacks you often receive from the real lunatics on the forum. These people basically have no argument, and hate anyone who is not "them", and that hatred will manifest with personal attacks on those they disagree with. I read all your posts, but only a fraction of the lunatic right, soon get the gist of what they have to say in a couple of lines.

Maybe I'm lucky in that I don't take the forum all that seriously, after all its not Federal Parliament, or State Parliament, its not even the local council chamber, it more like the Sydney Domain on Sunday afternoon in 1970, and I'm listening, booing, cat calling, "Webster" along with, at times, 1,000 other people. I totally disagreed with the pseudo Nazi but reterned many a time to join in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Webster_(orator)

rehctub,

Did you read benk's posts? For instance,

[benk]"I thought that the story contained glaring omissions about the context of decisions" and,

"We need a mature discussion about a complex issue".

Well said that poster, I thought.

Just to say in advance though, that while the Royal Commission is under way it will be the usual political gamesmanship by the activists and cynical politicians with their own secondary agendas to serve and the media will be after headlines.

When the Commission finally reports there will be SFA interest from any of them.

But at the end of it all the well-intentioned, ethical professionals and others who are presently working hard to improve things will have to pick up the pieces and carry on as before.

A lot of the statements are leaning heavily toward conspiracy facts.

ttbn,

Actually, it's not a dummy spit...it's a reaction to the odium on this forum. I have to ask myself are these the type of people and opinions I wish to spend my time interacting with?

You're a particularly nasty poster (and I've been here a while, so I'm in the position to make a reasonable comparison), but you are tops at hypocrisy. This is what you wrote on the Hanson thread in the articles section:

"...It's sad to see someone so on the outer that they don't realise that it is votes that put politicians in or out, not vicious abuse and childish tantrums."

This from the guy who called o sung wu a "knob-headed idiot" - and myself a "pig" the other day because he hasn't the intellectual facility to keep things civil.

.....

Foxy,

You are always trying to see the good in people - the problem is reading page upon page of bigoted frightened and (often) abusive rhetoric is a bit wearing over time....it dulls one's positive outlook.

Suse,

It took me a while to get into my stride on twitter....once I did, I found it most rewarding. It's is an entirely different experience, albeit communications are done with a limit of 140 characters. Sharing articles, videos, pics, commenting, retweeting things that you think are important add to gaining like-minded followers while still being informed.

And it's not a matter of closing one's mind to opposing opinion. I often interact with folks who disagree on twitter as long as it's kept civil. Often, however, folks on twitter of a similar ilk to many on OLO immediately become abusive - and on twitter it is very easy to stop that. Instead of sitting there attempting to reason with the person who doesn't wish to be polite or wishes to pollute your timeline with odious commentary - you simply "Block" them. You Block them and they're gone from your timeline forever.

Paul

You are right - the only way to handle some of the commentary here is not to take it seriously.....or not to take it all.

'Because these guards/carers are gross, abusive bullies who would be scared to try it on someone of their own size, and should be locked up themselves with much larger guards in attendance who believe in physical punishments'

'People like runner on this site resort to having a personal attack against my profession in order to feel big about themselves and their disgusting views.'

'
At least the kids in these sorts of facilities have more of a chance at life than the poor kids abused by religious clergy in church-run institutions in the recent past.

says it all Susie,. Unable to accept any truth but dish out your garbage.

btw their have been a number of nurses charges with abuse of elders. Old people can be trying but not nearly to the extent that young criminals are. What is your problem. You can slur guards who have an extremely difficult job and ignore the short failings of your own profression. I think your views are disgusting.

btw it would be sad to see Poirot, Susie and Foxy live although their views are very predictable on every issue. Just watch abc or read any other leftie and you will know their response. Foxy certainly rarely abuses people however Poirot's sarcacism and Susie's abuse is second to none.

I heard an interesting theory last night.

Apparently the ABC has been in possession of some of the footage of abuse and reports for four years or more, and that the timing of the release of this information is very conveniently just before the NT elections.

Is the ABC pulling another stunt like Triggs to promote Labor's interests?

SM,

The NT govt was aware of all the material shown of Four Corners.

Ellen Fanning asked Bath: "Was there any additional footage presented on 4 Corners last night that NT officials and NT bureaucrats didn't know about?

Bath: "As far as I know, no."

Bath continued: "Most of the material that you saw last night on Four Corners was available to the govt."

The govt legislated to make it legal.

"Nigel Scullion says his 'interest not piqued' before seeing youth detention footage"

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-26/scullions-interest-not-piqued-before-youth-detention-abuse-video/7662466

Here's what the producer of the show, Caro Meldrum-Hanna tweeted.

"Scullion's office asked me for an advanced copy of the #4Corners program yesterday. He went out to dinner last night instead of watching?"

"I spoke to Scullion's office yesterday lunchtime. They knew about the story & STILL didn't watch. What's going on?"

"Minister Scullion says he didn't watch #4Corners until @TurnbullMalcolm alerted him? I spoke with his office at around 1pm yesterday."

So let's just get over the spiel that this was all under the radar. It's been common knowledge for yonks that the NT govt was behaving like this...as usual, it's only national exposure through video and photos that breaks the "story".

.....

runner,

I do occasionally employ sarcasm (although not as often as I could), but if you really want to see a sarc exponent at the top of his game, you shouldn't go past Loudmouth whose posts are usually bout 80% sarc content.

I tend to take you on when you pull of one off your run-by slaggings accusing whomever you're addressing as a "hater" or someone who espouses "hatred" for whichever tenet of society is your choice for the occasion.

You don't like that.

Another point, SM,

If the ABC had this footage, it could have screened it prior to the federal election.

In fact, one would have to ask why it didn't?

All you ABC bashers seem to have missed that former Murdoch lady Michelle Guthrie has been installed as head of the ABC, has already cancelled Fact Check (because a fact checking dept would impede the LNP's ability to say any old guff as fact) - and booted online Drum.

Just as they've installed a mate to decimate the CSIRO - much easier to nobble these organisations from within, what!

SM said; "I heard an interesting theory last night" maybe you were channeling Adam Giles at the time.did he come to you in a dream or did you rely on your tried and trusted, the good old Ouija board. Shadow, were those voices in your head? We now have the ABC conspiring to boost the chances of Labor in next months NT election. I think your mob, the CLP, have done an excellent job of boosting Labor's chances on their own.

Adam Giles, moved to limit the political damage by sacking Corrections Minister John Elferink, and appointing himself as Corrections Minister. Giles is the bloke who wanted to be in charge of corrections so he could put prisoners into a big concrete holes.

""I would build a big concrete hole and put all the bad criminals in there: ‘Right, you are in the hole, you are not coming out. Start learning about it. Get in the hole’: Adam Giles, NT Parliament, October 20, 2010."

Giles should resign, and the incompetent NT Country Liberal Government sacked! In no way should the NT Country Liberal Party have any say as to the 'terms of reference' for the Royal Commission.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-26/nt-juvenile-justice-royal-commission-what-we-dont-know/7660430

Well done, Paul,

I just saw that quote from Giles from Hansard on twitter - was going to post it.

Again:

""I would build a big concrete hole and put all the bad criminals in there: ‘Right, you are in the hole, you are not coming out. Start learning about it. Get in the hole’: Adam Giles, NT Parliament, October 20, 2010."

Sally Neighbour's tweet after Giles said he'd never seen the vision on Four Corners - it was all "new to him".

"This beggars belief. It was the cctv vision from within the prison system that @adamgiles' government runs"

It's appalling....

http://twitter.com/abcnews/status/757811910049878017

Before I go into hospital this afternoon I thought
it important to share with you several articles that
I've just been sent via email from New Matilda.
They are distressing - but in my opinion, well worth
a read. Please take the time to do so:

http://newmatilda.com/2016/07/26/nt-juvenile-prison-abuse-the-most-shocking-part-is-that-anyone-is-actually-shocked

And -

http://newmatilda.com/2016/07/22/australias-racism-problem-is-a-growing-emergency/

Hi Poirot,

Giles would have no problem digging that big hole of his, he has lots of mates on the forum who are expert at digging themselves into holes, they could help.
Did you note Giles was only going to put the BAD criminals into his big hole. What was he going to do with the GOOD criminals? Shadow do you know?

Again, to reiterate the "creeping fascism" line, along with my references to the Nazi regime of 1930's Germany and the rise of Hitler...the NT Police use projectiles in their issued Glocks that DO NOT comply with the Hague Convention ( let's not get confused with anyone referring to the Geneva Convention as some would allude to) as it is for military combatants and an entirely different kettle of fish.

The word Dum-Dum bullets is what I brought up back in 2004 to the then Police Minister Paul Henderson. Several cases of unarmed/armed young aboriginal men were mentioned to him, notably that of Ambrose. The culture in the NT of 'frontier cowboys in uniform'...and now we read in today's news of Qld being implicated.

From the Coroners report we read thus: @ http://www.localcourt.nt.gov.au/docs/judgements/2007/20071203ntmc080.html

Section 35 reporting.

108. Pursuant to section 35(3) of the Coroner’s Act, I report to the Commissioner of Police and Director of Public Prosecutions that on 22 October 2002 at Wadeye, a crime contrary to section 154 of the Criminal Code may have been committed which caused serious actual danger to the life, health and safety of Robert Jongmin and Tobias Worumbu in circumstances where an ordinary person similarly circumstanced would have clearly foreseen such danger and not have done the act. The discharge of the firearm resulted in the death of Robert Jongmin and injury to Tobias Worumbu.

Dated this 3rd day of December 2007.

_________________________
GREG CAVANAGH
TERRITORY CORONER

Hi Poirot,

So hurtful. What, only 80 % ?

Come on, you guys, you can give as good as you get. It would be a pity if you boycott OLO. Oh well, never mind. See you.

Anyway, Back-to-topic: mistreatment of children (i.e. under 18) is always appalling, more so if it is covered up. Then we get the tangle about how and why and who is responsible for kids ending up (pro tem) in such places.

We have to understand that how and why, and what the hell to do about it all, is an incredibly complex, many-sided problem. We can think punitive or we can think preventative. We can blame the external environment, the 'system', police, courts, screws, etc. We can write the kids off. We can go back to communities, and ask why parents don't look after their children (colonialism, some might say; because they don't think they have to, others would say). There are mental health issues, even life-long genetic issues such as foetal alcohol syndrome (and who is responsible for that ?) and ADSD, not to mention long-term physical and sexual abuse.

We have to have the courage to ask difficult questions, if only to thoroughly dispose of them. What can be done at each of the many stages in young children becoming violent older children ? How can the custodial system be more positive and less penal ? If there is racism in the system, how can it be identified and reduced ? What can be done so that prisoners are more able, more social, less violent and alienated when they come out ?

Some problems don't have solutions - unless they are tackled comprehensively, on every front, proactively if possible, but remedially if necessary.

The lives - and life-spans - of many people will continue to be diminished if we keep pontificating from our lounge chairs with easy 'answers'.

Joe

Dear rehctub,

You wrote;

“We give these people billions, allow them the freedom they fought for to run their own lives and all of a sudden their out of control kids are our fault.”

You often want to be seen as someone wanting to get the figures right and quick to pull people up if you deem their numbers seem rubbery but then you go and pull this out of a hat to suit your argument or prejudice.

From a Senate report into indigenous funding;

“much of Indigenous-specific expenditure has not been simply ‘on top of’ that which Indigenous Australians might benefit from by being Australians. A large proportion of it has substituted for expenditure that would normally be provided via mainstream assistance programs (for example, Community Development Employment Projects for Newstart, Community Housing for housing under the Commonwealth-State Housing agreement, Aboriginal Legal Aid for general legal aid, Aboriginal Medical Services for Medicare supported services). A further amount has been for services which are generally the responsibility of other levels of government (for example, state or local). At the same time, Indigenous Australians have often utilised mainstream services and benefits at a lower rate than other Australians (for example, Pharmaceutical Benefits and Aged Care).”

Why don't you go away, do a little research and tell us what the real figures are or at the very least justify your own.

Anyway who are 'we' and 'these people'? The vast majority of people who are identifying as indigenous are paying taxes, indeed the number of indigenous doctors graduating is proportionally higher than the general population.

All bloody Australians as far as I'm concerned.

when you listen to the likes of Trigg who got it so wrong with detention centres it leaves no confidence of any decent outcomes by a politicised Royal Commission. Without culture (good aspects and bad) being examined we will be peeing in the wind again. The only winners will be the lawyers and more funding for more white and Indigeneous bureacrats achieving nothing. Many of these Indigeneous kids have hate taught to them from a young age. Kinda of like the young Palestinians who are taught to rejoice when Jews are stabbed.

Hi Steele,

Yes, Indigenous success is always exciting The higher education stats for 2015 should be available by next week, I'm expecting for growth in commencements and graduations of at least 6 %, hopefully 10 %, to 7,500 commencements and 2,200 graduations. A typical Indigenous higher-ed age-group, say 24-year-olds, would number around 10,500.

Do you have any figures on Indigenous medical graduates ? I'm very impressed with the medical program at Newcastle University: they currently have around a thousand Indigenous students, and probably many hundreds of medical graduates by now. That's Indigenous graduates in standard, mainstream, medical courses. No, not Mickey Mouse courses. No, not shorter courses. No, not 'Indigenous-focussed' courses. Standard, mainstream courses. Hundreds of graduates. Somebody pass that on to the Indigenous education elites.

Joe

Paul and Poirot,

Compared to some of the looney conspiracy theories you lot have come up with, this theory has far more weight.

What is not in dispute is that these behaviours were going on and both the NT Labor government and Rudd labor federal government received as far back as 2012. This was discussed on Radio National (ABC) this morning, and it is clear that this story is far from new.

Given that prisons are the purview of the state and not federal governments, releasing this info prior to the federal election would have little effect, however, with NT elections due shortly, its timing is as close to the optimal timing for Labor contesting the NT elections, just as Triggs deliberately delayed the inquiry into detentions until after the 2013 election so as not to cast Labor in a bad light, the ABC has form in this area too.

Still here Poirot. When can we expect the big day? You might remember a person calling himself CJ Morgan. He was areal shocker but, of course, he was also a comrade, so you would not have criticised him. I am 'nasty' only when goaded by people like you.

Foxy,

This is, at least, to my knowledge the second time that you have advised that your "days here are numbered". I think you should take notice of your medical advisers in relation to your health. You are not blessed with good health on your own admission. I hope that I haven't upset you too much, because you seem to be a gentle soul with sincerely held beliefs. But people are different, and always will be, and there is no need to get yourself hurt for any reason whatsoever, especially politics, or anything else that we really have no contol over. In real life, I never talk politics with people I don't know. I might find myself at odds with them over one thing, but lose the chance of communing with them on lots of other things far more important than mere grubby politics. And, how many people do you meet that are looking for an argument about politics, anyway? OLO and similar sites are a good way to express your opinions without fear of being torn to bits by extremists. But they are not the real world, and our strength still lies in the fact that we all have a vote, no matter how different we are. And, perhaps the the fact that only about 5% of votes will change governments means we are not as far apart as it seems?

In passing: I was raised in a left wing household. One of my brothers is something like me; the other two are real old lefties. We get along fine.

ttbn,

"....I am 'nasty' only when goaded by people like you."

Oh really!

Here's what o sung wu posted on another thread.

"Hi there TTBN..

I understand completely your sentiments concerning this vile creature, but the copper who made the statement, enunciating that Man MANIS also had rights, was in a very difficult position indeed. If you were to take him aside privately, and ask what he'd do if he could, he'd most likely respond by saying, take the slug around a corner and flog him 'til he bled, then shoot him !

It's so easy to come adrift, either in Court, in front of the media, or in the presence of the public, to make some unguarded, intemperate remark, and all hell breaks loose, requiring you to tap a typewriter forever and a day !"

Here was your reply:

"ABC news today. The police Foreward Commander admitted that he was responsible for the Lindt cafe deaths. Ex-policeman and their apologists can try to 'explain' away police incompetence as much as they wish. But the fool in charge in this instance, has a conscience of sorts, and has admitted that his faffing around and stupid thoughts about the 'rights' of a terrorist caused the murders of 3 innocent coffee-drinkers. There is simply no excuse for such stupidity and incompetence in someone supposed to be protecting the public. And, anyone attempting to excuse it including, including o sung woo, is a knob-headed idiot."

Sums up your style to a tee.

Btw, I'll leave when I'm ready...and you fellas will have an air-tight right-wing echo chamber - something to look forward to!

Shadow, I did see a press interview where the NT opposition leader Michael Gunner admitted, and was profoundly sorry for the short comings of the previous Labor administration, There is no question that culpability extends well back.
What the CLP introduced when it came to office was a stronger reinforcement of a already get tough policy on juvenile offenders in general. When the politician talks tough and simplistically tells all "I'll kick ass", (figuratively speaking), its popular with those baying for blood and its a vote winner. That was part of the CLP platform. The problem with this simplistic tough talk is it can send a sometimes unintended mixed message to those on the front line, that 'kick ass' is what the politicians in power want, and approve of. That may partly explain why violence became, or was extended to many of those guards in the detention centers. Simply seeing their actions as obeying the instructions of their political masters.

Poirot,

I note that you slyly omitted OSW's abuse of me. You are really pathetic. And, by the way, I don't care whether you go or stay. You are a write-off either way.

Paul,

The connection you are trying to draw is extremely tenuous, especially as the abuse went back far beyond the statement, with some of the reports and videos I believe dating back as far as 2010. So the question as to the timing is still unanswered.

Secondly, having read articles by ex prison guards in these youth detention centres, it is clear that many of these children are extremely violent and unpredictable, and prison guards are regularly assaulted, injured and spat on. In the picture where the youth is restrained with a hood, the hood in question is not a blindfold, but to prevent spitting which is a health hazard for the guards.

Many of these kids have severe mental and drug problems, and with many in the NT are suffering from Foetal alcohol syndrome with severe cognitive problems and impulse control and are not only a danger to themselves, but to anyone they come in contact with.

Dear Poirot, Foxy and Suseonline,

I'm wondering why you let these three amigos in particular get to you. The only reason I ever read their posts is when you have referred to them in your own.

otb, ttfn, and runner are pretty easily pigeonholed and I personally tag them as; probably divorced misogynist, classical small man syndrome, and highly sexual repressed individual, in that order.

Nothing they have written has dissuaded me from that view. They will of course have done the same for others which is fine and once that understanding is reached there is little more to be said.

runner is permanently on the religious 'roids' while ttfn's attempted head kicking of o sung wu and Is mise shows a temperament that brooks no criticism.

otb is the most insidious as he tends to dial it back when challenged just to approach things from a different angle but all with the same agenda, lame psychological abuse.

One of the great features in Reddit is to put a poster on ignore. You still see the rest of the thread but without their contributions being shown. OLO could benefit from such a service.

For the moment ignoring, not only not responding but not reading anything they write, is the next best thing.

Except of course when you feel a little bored and in need of some sport ;)

Well, I'm back. The tests have been done - now
I'll wait for the results.

I've been reading some of your comments and the advice
given and it does make sense not to read or respond to
comments that are upsetting. But sometimes that is
difficult for me to do. I believe that most people are basically
good and there are reasons if they behave badly. I realise
that there are some bad people - but at times they can surprise
us.

What I don't like is the recent fear spreading that seems to
be becoming more popular.

Dearest Foxy,

I'm glad you're back, we all need your wise and compassionate leavening to our acerbic ravings. I don't know what you mean by 'fear spreading' though.

Steele,

None of us agree 100 % with each other, except perhaps between your colleagues. I'm probably closest to OnTheBeach, but I'm sure I've got stuck into him for some trivial difference.

On OLO, we can't actually hurt each other. If somebody really gets to me (which is quite often), I just go off and have a couple of reds. Occasionally, a good cry. But I learn from almost everyone. That's how discussion should be. Thank you and your colleagues.

Cheers,

Joe

General Comment
This is one of the 'boys' and it is all evidence and Court judgement,

http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/northern-territory/teen-bashed-people-and-tried-to-run-over-a-cop/news-story/1e1354f764011bb8afdd2ae06671a8d0

The 'torture' chair and 'blindfolded' meme? Neither! Misleading and deliberately so.

It looks like a quality restraint purpose made for violent persons and the 'blindfold' could be any of many meshes to cope with serial spitters.

The 'Nude Boy'? Again, the intention seems to be to prevent self harm and the suitable gown (white) is always nearby, but strangely NOT mentioned in the ABC reports.

Timely to mention too, that Australian Law and that of other developed countries regards spitting, especially on or at police and guards, as a serious assault. Missing the target is no defence. See here for a Qld example,
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/qld/consol_act/cc189994/s340.html

Shadow Minister,

Sometimes it could be that the lean of the ABC to green left can lead it unconsciously choosing subjects that accord with its own green agenda, while rendering the ABC highly susceptible to manipulation from serial activists, opportunist politicians. For example, the Greens 'Protest' Party and in this case, a mess of compo seeking lawyers.

Especially with the added facility of social media there can easily be a coming together, a perfect storm, of (hypocritical) hysteria involving the leftist stirrers and all manner of bottom feeders, including some who trash Australia at every opportunity and have made money out of doing so for decades. - That would include the culturally cringing left for instance, and the well known gravy train.

Sometimes the hysteria-raising works for a time. Other times it doesn't and the usual leftist 'Progressive' culprits with human rights and multicult lawyers following them, go suddenly silent and move off for another target. Their enemy? Information, Facts and Truth.

to be continued..

continued..

However to tease out some evidence of lack of balance and the very poor (often one-sided) 'investigative' reports the ABC screens, why weren't there comparisons and contrasts made with the 'Bra Boys'.

Or better still the topical example of the Apex gang members in Victoria, where a kid gloves approach by government has arguably exacerbated the problem, but certainly has NOT diminished the growing problem.

The vexing problem is why do some indigenous youth and maybe the mainstream, do OK even bloom, whereas others do not?

Some indigenous do well in university, others in sport and still more are just average and leading normal happy, worthwhile lives. The same question can be asked of all youth who go astray and not just one sector and, the solutions are more likely found in studying the success stories, as unfashionable in some quarters as that is.

"The 'torture' chair and 'blindfolded' meme? Neither! Misleading and deliberately so.

It looks like a quality restraint purpose made for violent persons and the 'blindfold' could be any of many meshes to cope with serial spitters.

The 'Nude Boy'? Again, the intention seems to be to prevent self harm and the suitable gown (white) is always nearby, but strangely NOT mentioned in the ABC reports."

Which would explain why the Prime Minister "immediately" announced a Royal Commission.

Who would defend that kind of treatment in something called a "Correctional" facility?

otb would.

otb defends conduct that has disgusted people up and down the country and made headlines overseas.

He defends it!

"...a suitable gown (white) is always nearby..."

Yes? - and the multiple assault by the three thuggish guards - the ripping off of the "child's" clothes - the violent removal of his underpants?

How is the "suitable gown" seen as no threat, but the underpants are?

otb is "defending it".

What sort of depraved contortionist comes up with the kind of rationalisation that otb just plastered across this thread?

Warped....

Poirot, "the underpants"

You would have to consult the protocol for managing attempted self harm and yes, I would imagine that underclothes could be used.

A second consideration could have been that his clothes came into contact with sprays used to deter or suppress violence. Or were soiled otherwise. Would you rather the soaked/fouled clothes were left on to cause further irritation?

The gown? An approved one I would presume and designed fit for the purpose.

The ABC should have identified the approved protocols first, then outlined the presenting threat and environment, before using its large wooden spoon and generating speculative allegations, wouldn't you say?

The taxpaying public deserve more informative, better balanced, more professional reports from the national broadcaster.

No-one will be excusing or defending any wrongs by the staff involved.

From a cursory, layman's view of the facilities though, there is a long line of governments that have not built modern facilities for whatever reason, usually budget restrictions. Average, even accepting the obvious amount of damage caused by the violent occupants.

Has anyone made any comparisons with similar facilities for violent youth in the US and UK as examples? What is the best practice as far as handling serially violent youth offenders? Again, the ABC didn't bother.

Less sensationalism and more independence and facts ABC, please try.

On the advice of family and doctors - I am
leaving OLO. I shall not be back.

I wish you All The Best in your future discussions.

Be Kind to each other.

All The Best.

I want to thank onthebeach for the linked story and mature discussion. At the moment, we have a bunch of lefties condemning what they saw, but displaying no insight into the behaviour the warders deal with and offering no alternatives. On the other side, we have a bunch of rednecks who seem devoid of empathy and seem satisfied that these young people deserve everything they get.
We, as a society need to have discussions about issues like:
Under what conditions can young inmates be placed in solitary confinement?
Who decides and who reviews the decision?
How do prisons deal with cutters? Do wardens need to strip them, are we prepared to accept more self harm, or is there a third option?
What makes warders resort to violence and what processes are in place to manage these problems?
Under what conditions are inmates strapped to a chair and how can we deal with these conditions better?
No one seems ready to have a productive discussion and four corners did not discuss these matters in any detail.
Good luck Foxy.

Thanks Foxy for your contributions, I for one will miss you, all the best and please look after yourself.

Cheers Paul.

otb,

You really are a piece of work.

Did you watch the vision?

The child was standing with his back against a wall. There was "no gas". He was violently grabbed around the neck and forced onto a mattress on the floor. Two burly men then violently pulled off his shorts followed by his underpants. There was "no" white gown nearby. Everything was removed from the room except the foam mattress and the naked child.

In the preceding video clip, he was thrown through the air onto a mattress. If his head had hit the wall, he would have been seriously injured.

And here you are trying to tell us that the thuggish guards assaulting him were concerned about non-existent gas (in this instance) and soiled underclothing. There is no indication of either...merely a child being violently assaulted by people who are charged with his care.

"No-one will be excusing or defending any wrongs by the staff involved."

Guffaw!...says otb after excusing and defending the wrongs.

"The ABC should have identified the approved protocols first, then outlined the presenting threat and environment, before using its large wooden spoon and generating speculative allegations, wouldn't you say?"

No I wouldn't say.

What I will say is that you are a very weird person, and I'm glad my only contact with you is through a nebulous forum.

Thanks to otb's latest, I think the odium here has reached critical mass.

Foxy is leaving (I wish you well, Foxy...)

So am I.

All The Best

Dear Foxy,

A strong decision and one that I applaud. I don't see things getting better here anytime soon and having this place impacting your health was never going to be sustainable.

You leave a great many people who have deeply valued the manner with which you have conducted yourself over the years.

I hope you find another community online that instead nourishes and enriches you because you certainly deserve it.

All the best mate.

Dear Poirot,

It's been quite a ride. Trying to keep the bastards honest does take its toll. You have willingly and with gusto taken it up to people I have long given up on. Full credit to you.

Take really good care of yourself.

Poirot,

See here,

http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/northern-territory/guard-assault-was-lawful-court/news-story/655281807f78362cc382f84182331191

<Guard 'assault' was lawful: court

THE brutal restraining of a 13-year-old Dylan Voller was given the green light by the Territory’s justice system, which found a 115kg guard forcing Voller to the ground was a “reasonable” use of force.

The guard, Derek Tasker, was charged with aggravated assault against Voller, following a police investigation that was initially hampered by “lost” footage from the Aranda House youth detention centre in Alice Springs in 2009.

The guards stormed the cell to strip Voller’s cell and tear his clothes off because he had reportedly threatened to harm himself.

Voller featured prominently in Monday’s night Four Corners program, Australia’s Shame, which led to Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull to today announce a royal commission into the abuse of youths in the Northern Territory corrections system.

The partially recovered footage showed Tasker, who had been trained in “professional assault”, using his whole body weight to pin down the “small of stature and slight of build” Voller, who weighed an estimated 45-50kg at the time.

Then Magistrate Daynor Trigg found Voller to be an honest witness despite having reputation as a troublesome prisoner.

“There was no obvious exaggeration in the way Voller gave his evidence,” Mr Trigg found.

But Mr Trigg — whose decision was upheld on appeal — found Tasker’s assault was lawful...

On appeal, Supreme Court Justice Peter Barr found Tasker’s putting his knee to Voller’s neck was “reasonably skilful, and swiftly executed”.

Mr Trigg said that if he had found the assault to be unlawful, he would have found that Voller suffered harm.

Voller gave evidence that he suffered a sore back and jaw for days after the attack.

Tasker described Voller, who was first put in youth detention as a 12-year-old, “an extremely difficult child to deal with”.>
http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/northern-territory/guard-assault-was-lawful-court/news-story/655281807f78362cc382f84182331191

I wondered how long it would take the rabid right to shift the blame onto the kids. Just as those they transgressed against, these children are also victims. Not something the rabid right will agree with.

Take a puppy and belt him everyday, and you are likely to end up with a savage dog that bites the hand that feeds him. So then you belt him some more.

Beach, your finger pointing to the "facts" about Dylan Voller are not denied. In fact I would say given time the boy Dylan Voller will turn into the man Dylan Voller and there is every chance he will murder someone. And if we had capital punishment, someone just like you could pull the leaver, and we could hang Dylan Voller, end of problem!

Dear benk,

Having not read much of otb's post I can't say definitively but I have grave doubts it would in anyway read as mature, however if that is your take then who am I to argue.

You ask;

“Under what conditions can young inmates be placed in solitary confinement?”

Solitary confinement for juveniles in US federal prisons is banned. This is in a country with the highest incarceration rates in the world.

In both Victoria and NSW as far as I know spit masks are not used on juveniles under any circumstances, instead the prison staff were face protection. In WA do employ a spit mask but it is a vastly modified form.

Dear Paul,

I do hope you are wrong about Dylan. The fact that the magistrate found him to be a truthful and reliable witness hopefully is a plus.

There is a lot of very dodgy stuff surrounding this case.

The footage was initially said to have been 'lost' and the initial investigation was closed due to the lack of the tape. It was two years later that the Children's Commissioner managed to obtain a copy and forwarded it to police.

The incident report by the staff also stunk to high heaven. In fact the magistrate said;

“In “the incident report” it clearly states that “on exit he tries to spit again at staff” referring to the time Tasker, Clee and Bryers leave room/cell 4. I find this statement to be untrue. There are a number of untruths and inaccuracies in “the incident report”. I give it no evidentiary weight.”

He was being polite.

Dylan was obviously assaulted, whether use of force of that nature was illegal was not tested by the court only the question of it being excessive.

Hi Steele,

I to sincerely hope that Dylan Voller and the thousands of other kids just like him would through some miracle of life, turn the corner, and despite the terrible start become happy, loving and fulfilled human beings. Unfortunately the deck is stacked against them, half the population don't care, or want these kids punished in the extreme. Those who do care seem, to be powerless to act, I am indeed pessimistic.
How are you on this? Is there a glimmer of hope for these kids.

Paul,

While Dylan Voller is a victim of unwarranted abuse, and I believe that the royal commission is justified, I wouldn't get all misty eyed and fantasize that this poor little lamb would have turned his life around if he had had better treatment.

The reason Dylan was detained frequently was that he committed horrific and violent crimes again and again, and whilst in detention he assaulted and spat on detention authorities, behaviour, that if he was an adult, would have seen him jailed for many years. Now that he is 18 and an adult, he is now in the adult justice system, which is unlikely to be better.

"Dylan would go on to become one of the Northern Territory’s most notorious juvenile delinquents, featured in 2014 media reports of an ice-fuelled gangland-style robbery and attempting to run over cops."

While I believe the prison authorities went too far, I do think that some protocol needs to be developed to deal with violent and abusive juveniles that is not in itself so violent and abusive.

How droll it has been to poke my head back into the forum...yet again to find the practice of "othering" is alive and well. The usual suspects still at it, pushing their respective barrows.

Now wondering how differently the results of the recent Federal Erection would have played out if the ABC clowns had released the footage a week or so before July 2nd...? Even better, if someone totally independent had done so.

"A man can gasp out his life beside you - and you feel none of it. Pity, Sympathy, sure - but you don't feel the pain. Your belly is whole and that's what counts. A half - yard away someone's world is snuffled out in roaring agony - and you feel nothing. That's the misery of the world." (Erich Remarque.)

Dear Paul,

Here is a letter written by Dylan and released by his lawyers.

http://twitter.com/OBrienSolicitor/status/757849864428396548/photo/1

Even with my natural skepticism for the PR game lawyers tend to play there is enough in this to give me some hope.

The social workers keep alluding to a 'deep trauma' in his past that kicked off his offending at the age of 10. This is where the money needs to be spent. All money diverted from programs that would have helped him into building a bigger prison system to 'get tough on crime' is just so arse about it is criminal.

Oh well, at least Poirot will go down as the one who would never answer a direct question, and I recon foxy used to be Lexy, so I recon she will be back.

Besides, taking ones bat and ball achieves nothing. If you really don't like a poster, then ignore them, its that simple. I must say though this dummy spitting is so immature. Perhaps we need an over 50's forum.

Shadow, just lay your cards on the table, "the kids a bad egg, so lock him up and throw away the key" don't need insincere nonsense about you supporting a royal commission, you don't want to be seen as being on the wrong side. Not long back, like the rest of the rabid right on the forum, you would have been calling for the kids blood. No one, including me, are getting misty eyed or fantasizing about anything.
Yes, Dylan Voller, like so many others, has a terrible record, that is not in dispute. If you could only see past the end of your nose for a minute, what I and others on here want, is to see these children not turn out like they do in the first place, When state intervention is required it is done in such a way the the best interests of the child are served, not gratification for the mob!

Steele, we can only hope it is not too late for Dylan and others. Unfortunately we can't wind back the clock. This time society has failed these children, maybe tomorrows kids will fair better

Paul,

I know you have cognitive problems if issues aren't black or white, and clearly this situation where both parties may be at fault confuses and angers you.

My reasons for a royal commission, while including punishing abusers, is to develop a system that minimises the brutalisation of minors, maximises their rehabilitation, whilst protecting the social workers and custodians from violent and sociopathic offenders. There needs to be a clear and concrete set of recommendations and guidelines otherwise people will simply make things up as they go along.

Unlike you, I believe that many, but not all can be redeemed, and that some through genetics, disease, parental abuse or other factors are a danger to society, and here, FAS plays a terrible part.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/201884-signs-of-a-sociopath-in-children/
http://www.livestrong.com/article/270607-sociopathic-traits-in-children/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2155489/Is-child-psychopath-Its-common-think--spot-danger-signs-young-three.html

Hi SM,

Don't mind Paul: he concocts his paranoid fantasies, then imposes them on others - what others 'might' do, which shows what bastards they are. [Actually, more likely it's what Paul would do in their shoes.]

We know, surely, that what is happening to young people in detention, is just one stage from birth to premature death: from early abuse and neglect, through to a early, often violent, end.

There have been separate enquiries, ad nauseam, into each compartmentalised step along the way from A to B, C, D, E, F, .......[this one is, let's say, step M] ..... down to X, Y and Z. No government has the courage to step back and assesses the entire syndrome.

So we get the 'All Children are Sacred' investigation, the Mulligan Report, etc., reports into early abuse and neglect, into schooling, into the chronic lack of employment in remote communities, nutritional studies, all manner of intervention programs, child mortality studies, drug, grog and smoking studies, deaths in custody investigations, relatively vast numbers of kids being taken into care (and studies of that), renal studies, heart studies, etc., etc.

Sometimes problems are so huge and complex that it's easier to deny that they exist. Then they rear up and bite somebody on the arse, and they have to take notice. What is happening in remote 'communities' is in this category.

And sometimes problems don't have solutions at all, not if all the nettles are not grasped in coordination. Is this one of them ?

Joe

So Joe, other that a bit of stroking of poor old Shadows ego. what would you propose doing about what is after all a terrible situation. The Royal Commission is to be headed by former NT Chief Justice Brian Martin, with terms of reference extending back to 2006.

Failings in the child protection and youth detention systems of the Government of the Northern Territory;

The effectiveness of any oversight mechanisms and safeguards to ensure the treatment of detainees was appropriate;

Cultural and management issues that may exist within the Northern Territory youth detention system;

Whether the treatment of detainees breached laws or the detainees’ human rights; and

whether more should have been done by the Government of the Northern Territory to take appropriate measures to prevent the reoccurrence of inappropriate treatment.

Paul,

We can all put blinkers on and look only at one particular facet of a huge and complex syndrome. Or we can tackle the problems at their source, or as close to the source as possible, as well as simultaneously tackle as many of the consequences, and consequences of consequences, as possible. i.e. as soon as possible to tackle as many of the feeder-problems as possible. To focus on only one facet is to doom the whole thing to failure. As I suggested,

"Sometimes problems are so huge and complex that it's easier to deny that they exist. Then they rear up and bite somebody on the arse, and they have to take notice. What is happening in remote 'communities' is in this category.

"And sometimes problems don't have solutions at all, not if all the nettles are not grasped in coordination. Is this one of them ?"

It's time to stop prevaricating. People's lives, those of the next generation and beyond, are at stake.

Joe

"Or we can tackle the problems at their source, or as close to the source as possible, as well as simultaneously tackle as many of the consequences, and consequences of consequences, as possible. i.e. as soon as possible to tackle as many of the feeder-problems as possible."

Joe were you quoting Sir Humphrey Appleby, by any chance?

The Royal Commission is to address the immediate problems of a rough state, Australia's very own version of North Korea when it comes to juvenile justice. Adam Giles from The Country Liberal Party sounds like Kim Jong-un on this. Why did Turnbull allow Giles and his CLP cronies any input at all is hard to fathom.The Royal Commission despite any possible interference from the NT CLP should do a reasonable job with what it has been asked to do.

@Steeleredux
Most violence in prisons is directed by inmates at other inmates. In addition, they are forced to live in an environment where violence can start at any time, leading to a type of stress, called hyper vigilance. You dislike solitary confinement. What alternative solution do you offer when inmates are a threat to other inmates?
@Paul
You seem very understanding that inmates' violence is the result of their life's circumstances. I think you should extend the same courtesy to the warders. As Shadow Minister alluded to, we need to design a system where prison workers are looked after too, so they do not resort to violence. Careful editing means that we have no idea why the warders lost their temper.

Foxy

I wish you all the best and hope your are going to be well.
We have often been on different sdes of the argument but I have
always respected your capacity to see the good in human nature.
Your kindness always shines through.
All the best

Back to the debate
physciatrists say that physcopaths and sociopaths are almost impossible
to rehabilitate. They have tried all sort of programmes, hoping to change their
violent behaviour. It simply does not work, as the extreme mental and emotional
damage has been done in their early childhood.

They simply do not respond to efforts to make them feel emotional empathy for
their victims,
You throw in foetal alcohol syndrome and you really have a messed up individual.
I do think maybe a medical facility that can deal with mental issues may be
a better choice than prison.
The government hasnt the money to fund enough places for the elderly so I dont think they'll be funding places for these kids.

Bear in mind that it can be very frigtening for the innocent victims of these lads.
The same type of youth are always roaming around the neighbourhood looking for
houses to break into and they like to call filthy names at women accompanied by their
husband or boyfriends out for the evening, hoping to goad an attack, and then a gang of them will belt the hapless bloke if he tries to defend his girlfriend or wife.
A couple of those attacks have left innocent men braindamaged and dead, in the town where I live.
Our council and community members held a meeting here a few weeks ago,
because the residents are so fed up with the number of housebreakings and cars being stolen here every month.
The police say they catch them, and then they are tried as juveniles, although a lot of these lads are quite big 16and 17year olds.

Next thing the police catch the same offenders a few weeks later, because they have been let back on the street. They are so brazen.

benk, the RC will hopefully answer many of the as yet unanswered questions. When politicians talk tough on an issue like juvenile justice the focus is always directed at punitive action, and not prevention. Money and expertise then becomes an issue, in this case you can see the NT govt over many years did not put the necessary resources into what was a growing problem. The govt was happy to rely on old inadequate facilities like Don Dale, poorly trained and under resourced staff, poor management, and a general lack of political direction as to what outcomes are expected. The tough talk by the leadership is interpreted by those at the coal face that it is okay, or even expected that tough action will be taken with offenders. People like Adam Giles and John Elferink did not directly abuse children, but they certainly fostered policies and conditions that allowed abuse to flourish.

Hi Paul,

No, I was suggesting that what this Royal Commission would be looking into would be a very late stage in a very long process of abuse, neglect, FSA, ADSD, etc., and, even though I certainly wish it well, it could be, as G. B. Shaw commented, like putting a dirty bandage on a festering sore.

I admit that that may be difficult for you to understand, that actions have causes, and that those prior actions have causes, etc., going back ultimately to the springs from which all problems ultimately flow, namely family culture and the abdication of parental responsibility.

Is this blaming the victim ? Yes, 'victims' who abuse and neglect their own children, yes, who have themselves been abused and neglected by their own useless parents, yes. So where should there be intervention ? I'm suggesting: at every step.

I'm suggesting that any effective program will be extraordinarily complex, having to intervene at steps A, B, C, D, E, F, G, ...... down to X, Y and Z - not just try to pick up the pieces at Z, while the 'creative' process goes on.

You can shut your eyes to that complexity from the comfort of your arm-chair, and prattle about 'colonialism', but it will still be there tomorrow.

Joe

Joe, I am not shutting my eyes to the 'cause and effect' argument, nor do I believe this RC will be the long awaited panacea that is needed to fix the juvenile justice system, not only in the NT, but in all states and territories of Australia. Successive NT governments in a populist reaction to public outrage over a growing problem of juvenile delinquency chose the softer option of deterrent by punishment, and it failed.
I agree with your above post, complex problems require complex solutions. Some wont agree, and they are on this forum, but that is the reality.

Paul,

So are you suggesting that Sir Humphrey has it right ?

I'm relieved that you admit that this is a very complex issue, after you wrote

" .... what would you propose doing about what is after all a terrible situation. The Royal Commission is to be headed by former NT Chief Justice Brian Martin, with terms of reference extending back to 2006.

"Failings in the child protection and youth detention systems of the Government of the Northern Territory;

"The effectiveness of any oversight mechanisms and safeguards to ensure the treatment of detainees was appropriate;

"Cultural and management issues that may exist within the Northern Territory youth detention system;

"Whether the treatment of detainees breached laws or the detainees’ human rights; and

"whether more should have been done by the Government of the Northern Territory to take appropriate measures to prevent the reoccurrence of inappropriate treatment."

My answer was to get beyond your incredibly narrow vision, to look for root causes and for Christ's sake, do something about them simultaneously. I'm glad that you now agree.

Joe

Joe, you misunderstand me, what I posted was what, given the terms of reference, the RC will be covering, as published, not (my) incredibly narrow vision, not my vision at all.

"Failings in the child protection and youth detention systems of the Government of the Northern Territory; etc etc"

Nowhere did I say the RC will be a total solution, it is not. The RC is a necessary requirement to deal with a "shock issue" which was brought to national prominence a few hours before hand by 'Four Corners'. Turnbull had little option, given the pubic outrage, other than to call a Royal Commission. Hopefully the finding will see an improvement in some areas, but I certainly don't expect it to be a total fix, not even just for the Northern Territory.
What should be noted is Royal Commissions can become deeper and wider that politicians at first expect.

Paul,

The politicians talk tough about stopping crime, but all that happens is that these teens rob houses, mug people, break into cars, and when arrested get released after after a couple of weeks. There is a balance between the rights of the teenagers and the rights of the man on the street.

Dylan is finding out the hard way that now that he is 18, the leniency he counted on is gone and he is looking at hard time.

Hi SM,

It's interesting to note the compassion for young multiple offenders. On another thread, there has been weighty debate about the rights of criminals such as Man Monis. There seemed to be broad agreement that committing crimes was one way to diminish one's rights.

At base, it may be that neglect, abuse, conditions such as FAS and ADHD, and the lack of any impulse restraint may drive many young people to commit the most vicious and pointless of crimes. It may be that mental health facilities should be utilised rather than jails, that some dreadfully affected people may need to be confined for life in such facilities, in order to protect others in society. Perhaps once the damage has been done very early, there are no happy solutions.

Nature - Nurture - Family Culture, each with its own dynamics. And then, along comes Ice.

Joe

I'm not sure what "rights" you blokes believe the bad guys negate through criminal activity. I believe people like Man Monis (if he was still alive), Dylan Voller and even George Pell have a couple of rights which I feel are reasonable. One is the right to a presumption of innocence until proven guilty, and secondly the right to a fair trial.
I know some of the rednecks from the rabid right find such niceties rather tiresome, and believe in summary justice, but I can't agree.

"committing crimes was one way to diminish one's rights." Joe, would that be the couple of rights above you are referring to? If not what rights do you believe are lost through committing crime.

Shadow said "these teens rob houses, mug people, break into cars, and when arrested get released after after a couple of weeks" In the case of Dylan Voller he must have a bad lawyer, because since the age of 11 he has spent more time in institutions than on the outside, so it would seem. You are a bit of a Rumpole Of The Bailey, maybe you should take over his brief!

Paul, we won't know what went wrong until after the Royal commission. You assume the government made certain mistakes. I wonder if inmates had more rights than guards.. If so, guards are always at risk of losing their temper. Our assumptions probably say more about our worldview than anything else.

Paul1405, "One is the right to a presumption of innocence until proven guilty, and secondly the right to a fair trial"

What about sticking to the subject of this thread? The offenders were convicted numerous times by courts that most people would ordinarily say are strongly sympathetic to juvenile offenders and very definitely to indigenous.

Gaol is the very last resort for serial, serious crimes. Where the offender really has to be separated from society for public safety and his own good.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the judges examined everything that was even remotely relevant and that includes any claimed sorry background, endless excuses of the defence counsel and some other special pleadings for indigenous that the court is obliged to weight heavily before arriving at a decision.

In summing up the judges have made comments about the offenders. Those comments were usually reported. Some have been linked to here. What rational person wouldn't accept the court rulings? According to the courts, these are very dangerous youths, one now an adult, who have been given every chance and then some more, but spat (literally!) in the face of those who tried to help them.

General comment
The ABC will be congratulating itself for provoking a Royal Commission. However the ABC's reporting was most unprofessional and it has earned and deserves public opprobrium for sensationalising on scant evidence and muck raking. The ABC is one of the worst for tabloid journalism where its political and current affairs reporting are concerned.

Now Stan Grant has weighed in :(

Beach, from your above post it would appear you do not think this Royal Commission is justified.

"strongly sympathetic to juvenile offenders and very definitely to indigenous." Yes, absolutely, given 3% of juveniles incarcerated in the NT are non indigenous children. That in itself does not point to inherent racism within the MT juvenile justice system. However it does indicate there is a systemic problem with aboriginal youth in relation to crime in the NT.

"According to the courts, these are very dangerous youths" as an apologists for the existing system, I take it you believe that children within the MT juvenile justice have been treated entirely appropriately. Again no need for a Royal Commission.

As for the ABC and its coverage, no doubt you would much prefer this kind of dirty linen remain hidden. That is understandable to those of us who see you as a supporter of a police state, and a key element of such a state is secrecy. Again no need for a Royal Commission.

While this video deals specifically with sexual offenders, is it the sort of juvenile system Australia should be heading towards?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUAljuxNUu0

New facilities cost big dollars.

Paul1405,

Your Straw Men and dismissed as such. Do you even know when you are doing that? Maybe not.

Paul, you are wearing it thin, this you rightists, you rednecks,
everything and anyone right of centre is stupid, criminal etc etc to you.
All you do is detract from your debating points with all that.
You are like Poirot stuck in a rut.

Beach, 'straw man' someone must have run that by you sometime ago, and you have been using the hackneyed term ever since. The fact is given your narrow minded thinking issues of social justice, your attitude can be best summed up as "shoot first and don't ask questions", You certainly would not support this Royal Commission, now would you.

Bazz....yawn. You can't be Mr Moderate, Beach has already claimed that title.

Paul, I am not moderate and don't pretend to be.
I am pretty much right wing but you do go over the top.
I am aware our pollies right & left are pretty hopeless but I do not
put the tags on them that you do on people on one end of the spectrum.
You sound like one of those old time Stalinist red ravers.

Paul,

Projection again: projecting onto others what you would do yourself, if you were inclined.

What do you understand by the verb 'diminish' ? 'Total abrogation of rights' ? Why do you do that, to lurch to an extreme ? Does it make you feel any better and save you having to think through issues, by distorting the views of others ? Do you realise that, when you do that, you put yourself in the category of 'waste of space' ?

'Diminish' in this case may mean to restrain, to restrict, to limit, somebody's current activities if they are putting someone else's rights (i.e. to undisturbed comfort) at risk. Can you understand all that ?

You have a right to undisturbed comfort, to peace of mind, not to be threatened in any way, don't you ? I don't hesitate to suggest that, if someone threatens your life or safety, Paul, then you and others are entitled to protect yourself to the full extent necessary. Necessary and no more. Necessary, Paul, before you run off to yet another extreme.

In the case of Monis, since he killed one person and was menacing the lives of others, the limits on his rights would be close to zilch. That's how it goes when you menace or kill others.

In the case of violent adolescents with very long charge sheets, it may be necessary to restrain them, or even confine them, until they have calmed down. Spit hoods ? Yes, if necessary. A restraining chair ? Yes, if necessary. Closely monitored confinement ? Yes, if necessary. But only for as long as necessary, no longer. Any complaints ?

Joe

I don't think that a Royal Commission will help. It can only officially list the problems we already know about, and make recommendations. Royal Commissions are ploy to make us thing that politicians are doing something after a public outcry. After three Commissions into aboriginal deaths in custody (first one in 1971, more or less said that it was a problem for the aborigines themselves, and was ignored). There was one in the 90's that was not acted on by politicians, and deaths rose. The whole problem continued.

The media, particularly the ABC, go from one stir to the next, then lose interest after about two weeks, at the most. They will report Commissioner Martin's findings, make a few noises, then move on to their next breathless revelation. The whole thing will be forgotten, and the politicians can heave a sigh of relief, and move on - again, and as always.

Hi ttbn,
The RC into Indigenous Deaths in custody found very early, perhaps before it formally even started, that while 22 % of all deaths in custody were those of Indigenous people, 23 % of all those in custody were Indigenous. That was back in the early nineties.

In 2016, more like 28 % of all those in custody are Indigenous. So what would you expect to be the percentage of deaths in custody who were Indigenous ? That around 28 % of all deaths in custody would be Indigenous. My perhaps faulty understanding is that the current rate is around 26 %.

Note, by the way, that percentage, or proportion, says nothing whatever about the actual number of deaths in custody.

We also know that, outside of custody, the rate of violent deaths and suicide amongst Indigenous people is many times that of the general population. So the inconvenient conclusion to be drawn (get stuck in, if you disagree) is that it is safer for Indigenous people to be in custody. Isn’t that an appalling indictment on Indigenous existence ?

Some may say, yes, but only 2.5 % of the population is Indigenous, so there shouldn’t be any more than 2.5 % of all deaths in custody to be of Indigenous people. Okay, so what if only 2.5 % of those in custody were Indigenous, not 28 %: would you say the same ? Suppose not one of those in custody were Indigenous, should the proportion or percentage in deaths in custody still be 2.5 % ? Or if, say, all of those in custody were Indigenous, should the proportion still be only 2.5 % ?

Similarly, the proportion of deaths in custody of, let’s say, Chinese or New Zealanders, should be no higher than the proportion or percentage of ALL those in custody who are Chinese or New Zealanders. Isn't that so ?

The brutality of some deaths in custody is another matter

Regards,

Joe

It was the taxpayer-funded ABC playing the racist card to make the news.

Should the victims of crime, for example assault and rape victims, be accused of 'racism' because they identify their assailant as indigenous, or more likely, point out the offender from photos and in court, who just happens to be indigenous?

Regarding that chair and spit hood that were supposed to be torture devices, the ABC journalists and producers knew better than that. What caused the ABC to present the lies then?

As far as I am aware, the ABC has yet to admit that its iconic 'Guantanamo Bay instruments of torture' are the simple, practical, RECOMMENDED, ROUTINE apparatus used in enlightened jurisdictions, in modern correction facilities.

What prevented the ABC, which has an open chequebook and umpteen journalists on staff doing SFA at any one time, from presenting a professional, detailed report? Was it laziness? Is it the ABC jumping on overseas bandwagons?

The ABC has done a very great disservice to the public, to the professionals involved in providing and improving youth correction and counselling services, to the victims of crime and finally to the offenders themselves through its gross simplification and wrong, misleading inferences.

Since some fool mentioned Indigenous suicide rates, here is a brilliant article by my friend Anthony Dillon, recently published in Quadrant:

https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/bennelong-papers/2016/07/dillon/

Suicides, especially of young women, are often (usually ?) the consequence of abuse, especially sexual abuse - let's be honest, rape. On Friday I was mourning my wife's best friend, whose birthday it was, and who had topped herself back in 1990. That followed the suicide of HER best friend, for the same reason. But in a different 'community'.

It's hard to realise how tiny one's world is if you come from a 'community' of 100 or 150 people, and what the impact on you may be if something brutal happens. Such 'communities' are too small even for the exercise of ordinary social activities such as joining a netball team - there just aren't enough people to keep one going.

And most people are so inter-related that the abuse of one girl means that pretty much everybody knows quickly all about it in fine detail, but to 'keep the peace', everybody is inclined to do nothing whatsoever about it. So those poor girls were totally bereft of any support, and probably prey to further abuse.

If you think life is not too safe for Indigenous people in custody, don't kid yourself: it's pretty lousy outside of custody as well.

Joe

Aboriginal 'communities' will sooner or later have to face up to enormous social problems: generating work where it may be impossible, getting kids to school (what's the point if they never have to work ?), protecting young people from abuse, combatting grog and now Ice, trying to persuade people to eat decent food and get some exercise, etc.

Meanwhile, Noel Pearson proposes not just a treaty, but a 'network of treaties', with each First Nation. How many would that be ? A thousand, two thousand ? Who would represent each 'First Nation' at any treaty negotiations, assuming that such a proposal gets past a Referendum ?

In every little town, every region, there is no shortage of people who would claim to represent 'their people', their 'First Nation'. Down this way, there is one daydream to set up a 'Regional Authority'. Never mind that the area proposed would include maybe five hundred Indigenous people, but around thirty thousand non-Indigenous people. Apart from the dozen of rival organisations for the crown of ruler of the 'Regional Authority', what to do with the 29,500 non-Indigenous people ? Expel them ? Put them to work as peons ?

A 'network of treaties' would first have to resolve which big-shot, and which big-shot organisation, is supposed to be the one and only authority to be involved with their particular treaty. And what should be in a treaty. And what to do with the non-Indigenous people. It's taken more than twenty years to resolve many of the land title disputes between Indigenous groups. How much longer to resolve the daydream of who is to put their name to a First nations treaty.

Do Indigenous people have another twenty years before their pursuit of silver bullets, become irrelevant ?

Discuss. Get stuck in.

Joe