I've never been political.
Last weekend was the first time I took the trouble to learn about how our political system works, looked at all the parties and voted properly, and one of the few times in my life I voted at all.
(A lot of you will think I threw my vote away putting Pauline Hanson into the senate but maybe theres a case that despite her flaws she's more honest than the others)

I've had this nagging idea in the back of my mind for weeks.
It's the idea that the system we've built IS NEVER GOING TO WORK.
It has the seeds of it's own destruction built in.

Take a quick look at this link for the fire triangle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_triangle
I want you to be mindful that a fire can be prevented or extinguished by removing any one of the elements in the fire triangle.

The comparison I wish to make is that our government (the fire) is going to be extinguished, because the system doesn't have the right components to make it work.

We have Capitalist Education (Private Schools) with a Socialist base (Public Schools).
We have Capitalist Healthcare (Private Hospitals) with a Socialist base. (Public Hospitals)

What we don't have is Capitalist Jobs 'WITH a Socialist Jobs Base'.

Sure we have Work For The Dole, but it's not working.
https://independentaustralia.net/business/business-display/reward-is-better-than-punishment-a-work-for-the-dole-alternative,8467

Unsustainable welfare will break the system.
It's a tax on everyone and everything.
Politicians already pander to the welfare class as they're a voting block.
We can't afford to have nice things unless we are willing to pay for them.

We need to end the 'Free Ride' mentality and replace it with something better, that works.

I'm not sure exactly when free education and healthcare and welfare began in Australia, though I assume they occurred over time.
But the system we've built isn't fair, productive or sustainable.
The kinks need to be ironed out.

We need Work for the Dole 2.0, and it needs to be successful and workable, or the nice things we take for granted aren't going to last.

I am about to argue that Juno spacecraft probing Jupiter stories are lies.

Labour, using bad education is being deskilled.

Earth travels around the Sun at around 67,000 mph. Internet statements that it takes 26,000 mph to leave earth's obit travelling out in to space. If 26,000 mph was all that would be needed. Spacecraft would be drawn into the Sun by Sun's gravity as spacecraft would need to equal Earth's 67,000 mph speeds to merely hold Earth in obit 93 million miles from the Sun.

I suggest the 26,000 mph plus using 67,000 mph obit speeds slung into space, added together equalling 93,000 mph would have been the formulated speed to travel out into space away from earth's orbit, escaping Sun's gravity.

Juno spacecraft taking 5 years to reach Jupiter's obit precisely at the time Jupiter 778 million mile from the Sun, completing one orbit around the Sun in 11.86 Earth years. Orbit speed is 13. 07 km/second... 29,326 mph. What precision?

http://www.space.com/33074-juno-jupiter-mission-complete-coverage.html

Juno reached Jupiter on scheduled July 4 is said to be altering speed, entering Jupiter's orbit for a planned orbiting period of 18 months.

Having said before, radio waves don't travel long distances exampled on earth by digital mobile phones needing to be in line of sight of mobile towers, in close proximity to each other to work. Progressively higher radio frequencies are, the shorter distances radio waves can travel. Add the Sun's electro magnetic static interference, being more interfering to radio waves outside earth's magnetic field, interference increases.
Regardless how big parabolic dishes are, how cold electronic circuit receivers are, how focused bouncing off second inverted parabolic dishes send radio waves back towards receiving circuitry. Noise level acceding the tiniest radio wave, after having traveled through space 685 million miles distance, being the closest distance between Earth and Jupiter.
Does not matter how focused radio waves are sent to a receiving point on earth, radio wave energy will spread out, lose energy quickly.

How well rocket exhausts work in a vacuum, slowing spacecraft? USA can't even come up with acceptable 2016 presidential candidates.

Media's entire space travel fantasy is propaganda: children's stories' intelligence, pictures and information, providing something pointless to teach children in classrooms, encouraging children to study pointless learning in many children's pointless hope of entering something to do with science.

Space travel is football sports emotional intelligence propaganda, moving forward.

Television Sunday morning religion programs are often going on about the end of time. Visual media are presenting many Apocalypse is coming stories: Independence Day; Under The Dome; Sleepy Hollow; Survivor series, escaping the world end of time Apocalypse; Get Me Out of Here, I'm A Celebrity; The Island With Bear Grylls; Escape to The Country; Jackson Pollock valued at $40 million Blue Poles II, art faked pricing, said to be abstracting destruction.

Add to that, faked over the top space stories, falsely showing poor thinking skilled people how democracy and capitalism is moving society into the future, propaganda.

One day in the future, similar to what I say happened in 1999, after media have attracted people's attention: all the doubtful over the top science stories; symbols of death (exampling pentagrams seen everywhere) symbols seen yet not explained in media; democracies don't work, analogies; etc, will be used to convince listeners to sell all property quickly before the stated to come share market bust comes, during a low property valued period, and take money out of banks, allowing the establishment opportunities to stalk “we won't mess around listeners because we know listeners know too much” assurances, listeners believing assurances, establishment stealing taken out of banks buried money. Listeners having sold property at hurrying lower than market prices, losing wealth.
As no serious bust will happen, establishment using Jesus stories and death symbols in the media reminders to threaten listeners not to tell other people, who, when traumatised by school education people are told of the trickery, school traumatised people are so believing media propaganda, people will refused to believe anything they don't want to hear.
Many people I argue, are fearing falling into mental depression, repressed memories of school teacher schooling, learning something new.

First week in July, Four Corners program is by the story, encouraging listeners to believe the future in employment is more to do with science. Beginning the program, showing an out of school number of children learning programming language.

What robots are doing are limited by true/false analysing. Point being that human visual imagery supported by skilled thought leaves robots little better than Neanderthal feel good is true feels bad is false intelligence.

At least human Neanderthals have experienced some alternative thought which could be used in unusual circumstances.

Science is encouraging children to work more mentally exhausting labours on some fantasy dream of obtaining usable employment. In doing so children are being robbed of their ability to think for themselves, while children are blindly following school examination grade seeking curriculum.

People working for the dole are being paid far less than minimum wages. Reasons prisoners in jail are not working is because past history has had people accused of crimes, placed in jail to be used as cheap labour.
I say believing in democracy, allows citizens to be abused by establishment.

Elections are good propaganda performances, allowing increased beliefs in something that maybe entirely false.

My obvious argument is how religion is very organised often believed by many people, that an afterlife has not been proved other than constant repeated words from priests.

Part 2

People can argue the problems from a fundamental analysis point of view, shifting digits from one column to another, but from a fundamental analysis point of view the system isn't sustainable.
It's not built right.

Now some people are going to be thinking 'Socialism? what the hell's he talking about??'

Firstly the problems with the current 'work for the dole' system are that work isn't meaningful and people aren't being paid enough for their efforts.
If you paid them more, and gave them meaningful work it would become more workable.
Centrelink currently pays people to find and keep jobs.
But rather than paying people to find jobs, why not just GIVE THEM jobs?

Why not just create meaningful jobs, and give all unemployed people the opportunity to earn their fortnightly allowance weekly? (effectively doubling their payment)

Even doing that, you'd get a full time adult worker for just $320 a week more than they're already spending now.
Surely they can make that work?

They'd have to be NEW jobs, that didn't conflict with existing job market, so the solution is massive infrastructure projects.
They could also EARN TRAINING CREDITS (money to spend on training)

This idea doesn't necessarily have to mean punishing people who can't find jobs.
It actually provides solutions.

Say we have 5% unemployment, which is good to have a pool of workers that businesses can obtain from, but there's no reason why the unemployed HAVE to be sitting around doing nothing whilst unemployed.

Think of the husband who's finding it hard to get work and their increased stress on family...
Think of the single mum who wants to get back into the workforce but cant find something in the right hours...
Think of young jobseekers genuinely looking for work and skills but can't find opportunities and are left to the peer pressure of drugs?
This would provide them all with new options.

What if anyone could take part, and use it as a second job if they wanted?
What if you could work any hours you wanted, day or night?

An interesting discussion AC, if it can survive the 101 blasts!!

AC,

I'm amazed you haven't addressed any of steve's posts.

They seem right up your alley.

Hey Is Mise..
I doubt my topic would get much interest and thats ok, I just wanted to get the idea out of my mind.
Its been niggling at me and annoying me and I'm not even sure its a good idea.
With the talk of privitising Medicare (even though it was probably just spin) a question does arise in whether we want to cannibalise the system or strengthen it.
I just don't know what else this country is going to do to save from getting further down the drain.
I'm sure plently of other commenters have ideas in which the country could save money or do better, this is just one I've been thinking about.

Hey Toni,
Are you calling me a space cadet I wonder... Lol
Yeah I didn't exactly know what to do with steve101's comments.
But I did watch a small clip of the Juno flight approaching Jupiter last night.
Off topic, but pretty amazing what NASA's done I suppose.

- And sorry everyone about the link that I forgot to fix before posting and mistakes in spelling / grammar.

Part 3

My idea isn't necessary about punishing people who don't find work, but to stop them falling between the cracks in the first place.

I feel as though we aren't using technology as well as what we could be, and its no wonder the young are dissillusioned.
They've grown up with Facebook, Apps, Mobile Phones and Tablets all their lives yet we are still somewhat alien to what we've created.
We have all this technology, but we really havent figured out how best to employ it.
We need to make sure technology empowers us not imprisons us.

Think about todays apps and what they can do.
We've mastered the concept of making addictive games with micro-pay where the game player gets rewarded with achievements and items.
We've figured out how to make extremely realistic simulation games.

Why not employ these tools into teaching people real skills?
You have all these people sitting around playing pointless games when they could be learning skills on the exact same tablet instead?
Why not reward school kids who excel in one area with the right to learn a new skill?
Unlocking skills, like in a game? Badges, Trophy's, achievements?

Why not have apps, with training simulations and video tutorials for everything? jobs, trades, tasks, vehicles, machinery etc.
Why not create a system that gives people FAST SKILLS and the knowledge they need to not fall between the cracks, cheaply?

On another note how many youngsters don't get a good start in life simply because they find it hard to get up their 100 hours for a license?
Maybe their single mum doesn't own a car.
It sometimes seems as though we're making it harder for people to succeed and become productive.

So that's basically my whole spiel...

//On another note how many youngsters don't get a good start in life simply because they find it hard to get up their 100 hours for a license?
Maybe their single mum doesn't own a car.
It sometimes seems as though we're making it harder for people to succeed and become productive.//

For once I find myself in complete agreement, AC. The 100 hours requirement for licenses is a farce, as is the way driving is taught in Australia.

Employers unreasonable attitudes toward the importance of driving licenses don't really help. A lot of employers will not even look at an application if you don't drive, even if there's no driving required for the job and good public transport to and from and work.

Unfortunately, good public transport is often not an option. It's something that Australia does remarkably badly.

Given the over-importance employers attach to driving licenses and the woeful state of public transport in Australia, driving should be regarded as an essential skill that should be taught to ALL young people.

But all too often, disadvantage and other confounding factors get in the way. Parents that don't have cars, or can't drive themselves, or that are simply too time poor to teach their kids, that can't afford the significant expense of professional driving lessons (and they are not cheap), leave their kids at a disadvantage.

Driving instruction should be taken out of the hands of parents and incorporated into the school curriculum. It could take the place of the weekly school sports afternoon, a pointless and unproductive waste of school time if ever there was one. Everybody could graduate from high school with a HSC and a drivers license, giving them greater equality of opportunity.

Teenagers having gone through and having many teenagers passed HSC examinations. I state, teenagers have had their thinking ability to easily learn employment skills, sabotaged.
For the same reason insurance companies see under aged 25 years teens and adults as high risk insurance liabilities, under aged 25 year olds: drinking too much alcohol; driving motor vehicles too fast above speed limits; smoking marijuana; taking illegal drugs; 100 hours driving experience before obtaining drivers license; poor concentration behaviours; easily distracted behaviours.

I say, school leaving teenagers are difficult to train. My assumed reasons are why school leaving teenagers are difficult to train, is that once teenagers go through traumatic to memories training experiences, attend government certified paid training, holding memories to perform limited tasks, having spent several years on low paying apprenticeship wages, teenagers young adults are more likely not to want to more themselves up the skilled employment ladder and or start a business of their own, becoming independent from establishment employers.

The real idea of schooling, is to slow employment wealth progress rather than provide usable thinking skills to innovate progress. School students child-intelligent brains taught/conditioned to remember what students are told as true unproven easy to understand simple facts.
Badly educated humans easily believe anecdotal repetitive quick no need to think statements from media presented establishment. Market melt down lies.

Spending time on low income CentreLink unemployment incomes looking for employment, punishes ideas of not wanting to do boring physically exhausting work. Eventually putting up with what work is provided.

Establishments guided societies don't need all the labour on offer to service wage earned supply of money, giving value to money.
Because societies real owned business employers don't need all the employee labour on offer, employers can see the most ineffective difficult to train, choice of employees, not bothering to hire them.
Establishment owned pretend owner proprietor business employers can pick poor skilled thinkers, spending the time to allow limited training to perform limited tasks employees needing to be remembered.

What was once done by convict labourers, are now done by badly school educated Neanderthal zombie labours.

If by obtaining HSC high scores, showing how school education had not entirely destroyed students brain's ability to remember information, moving into higher education university. Learners will become specialised in their choice of studying. People who sound highly educated intelligent, are in my opinion, limit conversation to what they understand.
Dispute as I often do using arguments which oppose media limited knowledge anecdotal statements. In my experience, school educated peoples ability to argue in defence of their beliefs, shows the true shallow ignorance of many school curriculum educated people.

My theory is that working for the Dole is unacceptable in that school education intentionally held probable good thinking intelligence and quick to understand, holding memories on what had been understood to guide the self through employment careers, instead of probable good intelligence abilities, intelligence was degraded, guided to allowing many media presented lies to be believed. Allowing an establishment jobs for the boys and girls to enjoy a low stress life.

Males who argue with their wives to the point of family violence, are males who followed their own poor decisions, on feeling as believing their own delusional beliefs, once they were employed, having a family was a good idea.

All to most of those secure jobs are gone. Bad education, which I say maintain young children all the way through to old age death, human brains use how they feel/emotions to make unwise badly thought out hurried decisions rather than wise and cautious understanding, allows people to entertain themselves to need a spouse and children companionship, alcohol and sports selection delusional beliefs to maintain a normal life.

When male employment work becomes too unbearable, when debt becomes a problem, when delusions fail, the wife gets the blame. Bad education is the real blame.
As societies problems are intentionally allowing government to act concerned, when government education is the cause of society's problems. My list being: mental illnesses; bad employment skills; bad thinking behaviours; drug and alcohol induced violence. The many problems become opportunities for increasing employment: police; legal profession; social workers; prison guards; increasing numbers of school teachers to further teach curriculum subjects for 13 to 17 years.
Each school teacher prevents 30 teenagers of any number of teenagers from pursuing their own career path skill learning, slowing entry into wage earning income.

Most human 40 years of paid adult employment will not require as much academic school work similar tasks as would have been performed in no monetary reward 13 years of schooling.

What makes similar reading material ignored, is that what I claim problems are, bad schooling results are proven to work as few people will care to read and believe what I claim is true.

Hey Toni,
I don't want teenagers on the road any less skilled than they are now, but I think theres other things we can do to give them better road skills without perhaps the need to do so many hours.

For example: Atttitude Drivers Workshops hosted by police and fire brigade who have attended road accidents, which show confronting images of car accidents and tell the stories of parents who've lost kids from txting and adults who have suffered life changing injuries.

Maybe we should teach them about motorbikes and trucks too, that even if they never get these licences that they need to understand what driving means for a person in a truck or motorbike.
A lapse of attention for just a moment can get people killed.

Maybe we should teach them about the wisdom you get from being a long term driver, things you look and watch out for like a sixth sense without even realising it.
Cars backing out and people stepping out.
Things that they might not see us do and take for granted not understanding that some good driving skills are developed over the long term.

I think your idea to make it mandatory in the HSC is a great idea.
Kids are going to need a car and a license to get anywhere in their lives so might as well make it part of the school curriculum.
It's as useful as anything else you could teach them, there's no point putting it off.
If kids are going to do well in sport taking them away from it for just a little while won't make much difference and for the ones who don't do well in sport it won't matter because getting a licence is more beneficial.

I think it sends a good message too because it tells them they are valued and expected to be productive after schooling.

Hey Steve101,
Your style of writing and vocabulary is like an english teacher on red bulls (no offense), and I need a dictionary to keep up!
I guess that means I'm one of the uneducated 'so to speak' and the jokes on me.

I agree with many of the things you say, it's just the way you write is hard for me take in.

Quote "Because societies real owned business employers don't need all the employee labour on offer, employers can see the most ineffective difficult to train, choice of employees, not bothering to hire them."

This is kind of my point.
Look at the lengths we go to to make sure the 'cream floats to the top'.
No expense is spared giving some the best opportunities to succeed.
But what about the 'crud that sinks to the bottom'?
We let people fail for the most mundane reasons.

If you took a tiny bit of what we put in at the top and applied it at the bottom to stop people failing we wouldn't have half the problems we do.

The talk about equality is just all talk.
If equality was real university education would be mandatory.
The reason its not, is because we'll always need someone to clean the toilets and take out rubbish.
In a capitalist world people send their kids to private school in the hope they wont have to do these things.

Why give a baby bonus to ill-prepared mums to have kids and live in housing commission if they just grow up and get hindered by the ability to get a car and license and be productive and all end up sucking off the governments teet and living in a drug ghetto neighborhoods? What's the purpose?
There's no manufacturing jobs anymore so what are these people supposed to do?

On the other hand being uneducated doesn't necessarily have to mean being poor and unproductive.
I'm sure there's truck drivers out there with IQ's no more than 70 who have done extremely well for themselves and pay plenty in tax.

I think the costs of 5.1bln over 3 years for the current WFTD scheme as stated in the earlier article are completely incorrect in the bigger picture.
Jobseekers previously could do a course which would get them out of WFTD obligations.
I think things have changed now, and they need to do WFTD regardless of whether they're doing a course or not.
But what that meant was that jobseekers were signing up to all sorts of courses that they either weren't really capable of completing or that they weren't suited to and many did not complete their courses.
Also is the cost of job services companies which, lets be honest, don't create jobs.
They are just mostly another expense or drain on the system.
So the real cost is much more.

And the total cost of a bad and unsustainable system - incalculable.
The risks of having an unsustainable system mean that we could end up in Austerity, and then everyones wealth, generations of hard work are all at risk.

Secondly, this idea of just giving people jobs and paying them double their benefit for fulltime work and having a system where people could just go and work whenever they chose to; and combined with some kind of Blue Collar College where there was a trade off for 'work for skills' (training credits) and payment after your shift and we combined all this with addictive learning technology to make it work and info for people to not fall between the cracks in life, and made sure they got their license at school, then wouldn't we have created a system so easy that:
- In order to fail and become a burden on society, you really had to deliberately choose it?

Some people think the answers lie in moving digits around, I'm more about streamlining the system to make it foolproof and getting more bang for our buck and giving people the knowledge, skills and opportunities to get ahead in a capitalist world.

We have the technology, it shouldn't be that hard.

Arm Chair, I am the first to agree that everyone deserves a fair go, however, the main condition to that 'fair go', is they in turn have a fair go, and this is clearly not happening.

It never ceases to amaze me when the plebs whinge about paying a few bucks to see a doctor, while willingly pissing their money away on fast food, grog, cigs and gambling.

Surely that's not having a fair go.

Welfare waste is what's killing us, more so than welfare its self. We pay people to self harm, then pay for their treatment. Any self harm illness should not attract one red cent of tax payers money.

We need some meaningful/required work done for this to succeed, so how about suggestions?

Also, performance management would need to follow, with the possibility of being sacked, all part of a normal job. So what happens to a sacked person next?

You're still stuck with a safety net for those who truly don't want to work for what they receive.

Butch believes in a fair go * The idea of a fair go is not supposed to be one sided. There will always be people for what ever reason do not want to participate in work, that is not an Australian problem it’s a world fact.
Howard believed 5 % unemployment was full employment. And as been proved before when it gets below 5 % wages increase in leaps and bounds. So under unemployment comes with its own problems.
I don’t see why unemployment cannot be controlled at a 5% level. If out govt; would think about it: instead of bundling everybody that is unemployed into a work for the doll situation. Persons that have no hope of ever holding a job or are definite job dodgers should not be included in any work scheme.
Those unemployed that have potential to be leaders in the workforce need to be marketed as such. Persons that show mechanical skills and persons that will never advance from being laborers, need to be marketed as such. Since when did big sticks make people work, you are only going to turn people against what you are trying to achieve.
The current work for the dole is only trying to be seen as doing something. You have cats, dogs and guinea pigs all on the same task. Everybody’s personalities are different , until you have separate job tasks for different people you will never succeed.
Competent minded unemployed should be inducted into Tafe, university, or business college. Persons that will never make it past being a laborer should be inducted to work for local councils, nurseries or Land fills. All being a requirement of getting the dole + some extra for expenses for education on the job.
What they are doing now is selecting your employees for your business without not knowing what your business is.

Hey rehctub,
I agree they contribute a small amount back for doctor visits.
I expect the cost of this to explode in the coming years.
There's a new trend where single mums are making great use of home doctor visits.
Now that its so much easier, they call them twice as often.

I think a fee is fair for two reasons:
1. It's not free for people who go to work.
2. It creates a barrier to exploitation and overuse.

Hey Luciferase,
The only idea I could come up with to create new meaningful jobs that could also involve training and NOT conflict with the existing market for jobs in any way was National Infrastructure.

-Which in turn goes back to my previous idea of a straight line - (if theres a mountain in the way go through it and a if theres a building in the way knock it down) HSR and 6/8 lane superhighway connecting all capital cities from Darwin (via Townsville) to Perth.

But we build it so good it includes water, power, internet, oil, gas infrastructure as well like a national conduit for everything with a superport in Darwin.
Connect the power infrastructure to thorium plants, sunfarms and hydroelectric; with the water infrastructure that's connected to dams and desalination plants, and generate additional electricity through the movement of water through pipes, build a roof over the rail lines and put solar panels on it, generate electricity from the wheels of the trains...
Build an inland route connecting from say Carpentaria to Port Pirie, and then connect the capital cities to the inland route bringing the country to the city with 400kmh trains.

The meaningful jobs (and training) could be anything associated with this massive infrastructure project.

Therefore there would be a lot more jobs for normal Australians and a lot more opportunities for jobs and training under this new seperate system for the unemployed.

Badge and Achievement based System (for skills)

Task: Do Work - (earn double your allowance)
Result: Get Paid (following shift via EBT card) and earn Training Credits

Spend Training Credits
(example forklift license)

First: Learn New Skill (via App - Equipment, Safety Info, Simulation Training)
Then: Spend Training Credits on Practice or Testing
Result: (Pass)Get new skill or badge achievement for Digital Resume
Result2: Unlock New Projects (Opportunities) withing the Jobs and Training System

You may be required to use your new skills in the new projects you unlock.

This base level Jobs and Training Service (like some kind of Blue Collar College combined with the CES but in a technical App kind of way) could also be linked with Charities and Community Groups that you can also utilise for assistance to help you get on your feet and get a proper job.
Remember this isn't considered normal employment just an option to gain skills, training and earn a little more doing things that can save the government money.

You see its just like a micro-pay app or game.
If technology is the way of the future and we have MyGov accounts, then we should have different tabs in our online profile.

Other than personal info (like a default Home Tab)Health, Education, Jobs and Training, Skills & Achievements, Payments, Voting, Notifications etc.

You could click Log-In to MyGov,
Click 'Jobs & Training',
Click 'Look for Jobs'
Select (Project you have skills to take part in)
Confirm,
Go to Work.
Use the EBT card to log-in and out of work and get paid at end of shift into card.

//It never ceases to amaze me when the plebs whinge about paying a few bucks to see a doctor//

I am blessed with a remarkably robust immune system, but I still visit my doctor at least once a year even if just for a check-up. He might pick up something I have missed, because I lack the knowledge. If poor people are discouraged from going to the doctors by eliminating bulk billing, then problems which might have been picked up before they become serious (and therefore really expensive to treat) may go unnoticed until it's too late.

We might save a few bucks by discouraging John Doe from visiting his GP. Unfortunately, that GP would have noticed John's melanoma before it metastasised, when it could have been dealt with far more easily - and far more cheaply. Now John is seriously ill and needs all sorts of hideously expensive radiotherapy and chemo, and the net cost to the public health system is far greater than if we hadn't discouraged him from visiting his GP in the first place. Ooops. Bit of an own goal there. It's a bit of a bugger for poor old John as well.

This why we should leave public health to medical professionals, not people trained in the art of carving up animals which are well past any sort medical help.

Implementing the System - Projects

The main project is this huge National Infrastructure Project
But this would consist of many many smaller projects.

For example, you could find some brainiacs to design mobile dwellings, with bed, tv, internet connection, recharge station, battery wall and solar panel etc to provide mobile accommodations.
Then you get the chinese to make all the components cheap and we start a project with jobs for assembling these mobile dwellings.
If the dwellings arent being used you lease them out, and even sell them to companies or individuals who wish to buy them.
As you get enough of these dwellings, you can begin to start new projects where people get skills in trucks and heavy equipment and excavations and begin land clearing for the new infrastructure.
As the same time you bring on new projects to provide meals for these people... And laundry services..
All new jobs and skills, and badges and achievements for your digital resume.

So as the skillsets grow the use of these skillsets grow.
As the project evolves more projects come online.
You guys get where I'm going.

Hey Doog,
I agree the 5% unemployment level should just be maintained, only we need to create a better system for those who may find themselves in that 5% at one time or another; some more often than others..
I didn't know lower % employment pushes up wages btw, but it makes sense.

But even if some people only have skills to be cleaners, gardeners, truck drivers etc. they should all be able to get easy access to information that can help them learn how to start their own businesses successfully.

And sometimes its not what you earn, but the decisions you make that determine your success.
A low skilled quiet-achiever person that just keeps on keeping on can do better in the long run than someone more intelligent and better skilled person who lives life more erratically and to the extremes with poor and irrational choices.

Hey Toni,
I think even $5 or around the cost of subsidised medicine would be fair for a doctor visit for someone on a benefit, (maybe double if they send the home doctor out) and it would be ok if that cost comes out of that persons next payment, therefore not having to pay up front.

I don't want people not going to the doctors when they should be going, and all paid workers over 50 should be able to get their once yearly check-up at a discount, maybe even the $5.
(It's not a big expense once a year to make sure the people earning the taxes are healthy, it tells them they're valued but it also reminds them to value their own health too.)
I just don't want people able to misuse the service, like having the home doctor out 8 times in a fortnight at taxpayers expense for a child that has essentially nothing wrong with them.

Just watched a Youtube video.
Requiem of the American dream by Noam Chomsky.
I recommend all the LIB LAB voters should view this video.

Toni, $5 to see a doctor is not unreasonable, besides, many of these people smoke, so if they can find the money for smokes, they can see a doctor.

I would even be happy to see say four free yearly visits per child, but seriously, anyone who thinks we can continue to provide free everything forever just does not get the big picture.

As for working for the dole, the very first change I would make would be to cancel all 457 visa trolley collecting contracts and replace them with work for the dole, with a no show, no dough approach.

This would give the unemployed a purpose, it would save Wollies and Coles a fortune and it would even save on education of these 457'ers who don't speak English. A win win.

Hey Rehctub,
Thanks for your comment (and everyone elses).

A problem I foresee regarding free quotas is that someone with a really sick kid will say its unfair for them compared to someone who's kids only need to go a few times a year.
So it will get all 'tit for tatty' until they're all screwing the system again, that is supposing we fixed it.
Even if we fixed the system politicians would probably unfix it trying to buy votes somehow in future elections...

I think a cost equal to subsidised medicine is fair, and if they don't want to pay that they should go to the public hospital.
The problem here is that I've just shifted the problem to emergency which isn't fair on peoples waiting times who genuinely are there for emergencies, though they do prioritise.
It's better all around if people go to their own GP.
Not sure that many places do bulk billing anymore though.

You're right about them mostly having money for everything else though.

I understand your point about trolleys being the type of job that work for the dole people could and should be doing, but I can't go along with it because Coles and Woolies and the shopping centres are private companies.

If we let them have WFTD labour every business will want WFTD labour and then they wont give people proper jobs, and I wouldn't go along with government essentially labour hiring out unemployed either.
It wouldn't be right for the government to profit directly from under award wage workers working for private companies, though it would be ok if they are providing unemployed people with new options whilst saving the government money on expenditure.

My grief with Coles and Woolies is they profit from welfare so they have an moral obligation to give Australians jobs.

No disagreement on cancelling the 457 visa's though.
I heard they hire them (457's) in lesser paid job positions whilst making them do the work of a higher paid position under the lower paid job title.
No idea how this works for trolleys though...

Media panel programs rambling on about politicians and headlined politics like everything is real is the same as religious indoctrinates going on about god's words printed in a bible. The more religious: ministers; priests; perceived experts go on about god's words, placing key words into sentences; god; Jesus; forgiving sins, etc. the more people whom take notice, feeling righteous, subconsciously remembering key words, believe in feeling their righteous subconscious memories, acknowledging truth in repeated key words, feeling confident in understanding the feel good factor, begin to believe, reinforcing beliefs, bring attention to simple words as a concept: the afterlife; god; Jesus; etc. Too much attention towards what feels righteous fools the self, in believing little more than mere words.
Too much time spent listening to the same simple concept words, feels convincing as words are made conscious aware with all confident feelings of understanding what words mean. The more words are said the more words become true.

Media's constant perceived important news: scandals; wars; presidential speeches, statements. Allowing journalists opportunities to make comments about leaders stated shallow concepts, to reinforce democracy government in action, the more democracy word concepts are stated the more democracy becomes true.

Point being that people believe democracy is real because people take notice, willingly or not.
Even people who hate politics, may believe in voting for a particular political party.

What I strongly suggest to political listeners, stop listening. Politics are making and or keeping people dumb, much the same ideas used in religion to keep people dumb.
Many people are so shallow in wanting to understand little more than key words and heard before phrases, in need of entertainment turn to sports, listening to ball movement statements, watching balls move around on fields.

Political Journalists are not saying anything conclusively worthwhile. Journalists keep the conversation going, Journalists are not providing informed worthwhile opinions, instead to show problems exist, much the same as religions focus listeners attention on events happening in society, leading to bible predictions of some end of time event, leaving devoted listeners, listening to hear more, feeling god will save them.

Within politics, party leader names take the place of god and Jesus. The afterlife is future jobs and growth statements. Words: parliament; house names; governor general; prime minister; leader of the opposition; speaker of the house. Place words together in sentences and listeners hear government in process. After an election, electronic counting adds to believing in democracy.

Try listening to Sunday morning religious programs. Simple stories translated into something meaningful to listeners who feel as though they're understanding. Mix in: god; Jesus; sin; end of time... listeners feel intelligent. Ask religious believers to explain something, explainers are clueless, explainers barely able to formulate sentences, without guiding listeners to selections of bible paragraphs.

Reading this website forum readings, I believe many posters are absolutely clueless. Opinion forum posters ask more questions than posing credible opinions. In postings I have read, I don't believe posters are formulating anything credible out of all postings. Readers are not learning any wise formulations considered by myself to be worthwhile remembering.

As school education is about single word concepts leading absolutely nowhere, dictionary word interpretations are broad and abstract. Analysing Shakespearean murder stories punished curios intelligence, not to enjoy correctly analysing new ideas.
How... many school educated young adults can be heard calling each other bro. Putting words together to express more complex ideas, leading to complex concepts, fails to happen.

When I say school leavers are difficult to train, that usually means school leavers are clueless at understanding a process of one idea after another idea, leading to tasks final outcomes.

What I sometimes read are attempts to come out with an opinion, attempts become lost in clueless expressions.

Like politics and religion, listeners and readers are listening to and looking for similar opinions to match their own. Opinions that support their easily understood subconscious concepts. People seeking conformation rather than seeking increased abilities to understand more complex concepts. The feel good factor to feel understandingly intelligent while not wanting to know any more dominates the psychology of being alive.

Focusing on media journalists for relevant information is a waste of effort. Leadership worshiping distraction from real worthwhile information, politicians introducing specific criteria, journalists focused speculation on who said what to whom, journalists making few statements on what will be done to solve any unresolved issues are quickly avoided, moving on to a different topic, and or no solution can be found. Yet... politicians did stop the boats. Don't forget global warming climate change.

Far away events that go on forever, often rise up in the media, fading away soon after.

Resent British inquiry report into 2003 Iraqi invasion, 13 years later, past leaders entering media forums to comment on how invading Iraq was correct at the time. Embarrassing themselves by expressing that no weapons of mass destruction were found. Yet at the time 2003 when no weapons of mass destruction existed. The many countries involved in the invasion, soldiers stayed in Iraq for many years.

It does not matter whether politicians are seen as clueless and stupid non responsive, similar to voters avoid feeling themselves to be clueless and stupid. Politicians embarrassing exposures provide visual evidence acting democracy transparency. Retired politicians Anecdotally providing evidence of true democracies, I say, democracies voting for one of two parties are lies, that both parties don't care which party is in government? Separation between parties, faking performances are not a concept emotional decision making people want to feel, not because they care about democracies, because people don't want to feel they have been incorrect in their beliefs, easily fooled similar to fooling aged 5 year old children.
There are many people who don't want to hear about politics, I assume for the same inconclusive problem solutions reasons I am stating.

Aged 5 year old child intelligence people believing in religious indoctrinates whom are acting as though they're speaking to and or on behalf of a magical god. Whether information is religion or politics the feelings are mutual.

People believing in a magical god, I formulate an opinion that school education's forcing young children to write and spell words, left children's desires for purpose easily influenced by simple short duration repetitive word preaching religions during mental stress reduced days of rest, Sundays. For the same reason many people love sports because sports are more expressive ADHD behaviours and sports are not played or mentioned in mental stressing classrooms. Sports often played and or watched during relaxing primary school lunch time breaks, sports becomes a much love subconscious desirable stimulating pass time.
Somehow listening to journalists statements single word concepts of government in progress turns on people's limited short attention spans.

Capitalist industrial age growth may have worked during the 1800s years: building rail roads; coal mining; cotton mill building; industrial expansionism. As investors wealth builds, a speculative bubble draws money into buying price booming ever increasing numbers of company share certificates. Bubbles bust taking investors money. Long recession/depression periods blamed on lost investment moneys and accumulated debts. That is the capitalism Carl Marx criticised in that busts always result from booms. Hints that Carl Marx was financed by capitalists, that Marx was working for capitalism. His book writings printed by capitalist printing presses. My argument being that after many market busts, Carl Marx was convincing probable future sceptics preaching capitalism was faked market manipulated to show boom share prices, drawing investors money into buying more shares to end in share price busts, resulting in long depression and recession periods. Leaving knowledgeable people in the know to what was happening, selling company shares at the top of the market boomed up price.
Even though this faked market speculation theory exists, few people want to read similar ideas because such ideas conflict with feeling good about understanding capitalism in a positive delusional investment future.
The idea of living a life of going to work 5 days a week month after month, coming home to a rented building, void of a religious promised afterlife, having no dream to become wealthy. My capitalism governed by fake democracies is undesirable to most people when most people are trying to reward spare moments using delusional thoughts of moving forward towards an ultimate goal.

To make clear of the above post: capitalism doesn't work; communism works; something in between works; people in the know, enjoy living the life capitalism would have supplied, while I say invented bank credits gives people the socialist life most people feel they deserve. People managing to save wealth, religions end of time predictions starts the process over.

Despite all the rhetoric, Work for the Dole turned out to be a failure.

Statistically it did not provide better employment prospects for participants and in most cases proved disadvantageous.

Research as early as 2004 at Melbourne University found that “there appear to be quite large adverse effects of participation in [work for the dole]”. Those who were not in the program generally found it easier to find active employment.

This is the latest from rural areas -
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-08/remote-work-for-dole-program-a-failure-academic-says/7492004

It was always intended as a punitive measure to win votes for John Howard to suggest he was doing something about "Dole Bludgers" and Australians just hate to see people getting things that they don't get themselves.

Some people call it "The Tall Poppy Syndrome" but it targets short poppies too.

I have ideas for this problem, but they are radical...

1. Eliminate all centrelink payments for unemployed persons and all the admin infrastructure around it, that includes of course, all job network providers. I don't have the approx figure for this sum of money being saved but it's probably around a billion or something like that?? maybe even several of them or more?? this also includes getting rid of concession or Health care card holder entitlements... after all the concessions have to paid for somewhere along the line...

2. Introduce a UBI system as outlined here > http://www.basicincome.org/basic-income/
What that UBI figure is in Australia should at least be on the official poverty line which is 50% of median income according to ACOSS.

Keep in mind that people will work for many different motivations and reasons such as social links, identity and just out of sheer interest in what they do. We will always have a very small pool of people who will opt out of work no matter what system we put in place. Like has been mentioned in previous posts on this topic here, it is a global issue.

I am about to enter into my 3rd year of doing work for the dole programs and it has not benefited me in obtaining work at all. However I will add that I am over 50 yrs of age so maybe that plays a factor in it. I don't know. My biggest problem is continuing to be severely underemployed and scrapping by on approx $536 a fortnight to support my low level of living standards.

I forgot to add in my above post, that the ever increasing rate of technology is making not just low end jobs but also a serious threat to middle level jobs more a reality now than ever before.

Think about it, if a business has the option to purchase as robot or some other form of technology to "streamline" or replace outright a worker, then why would they not do it? They are in business to make money, NOT create jobs because its the "socially responsible" thing to do.

Here is an example from Foxconn in Taiwan replacing 60,000 workers with robots, and this is from a factory that makes computer circuit boards!

Link to Foxconn replacing workers > http://www.techspot.com/news/64981-robots-foxconn-factory-replace-60000-employees.html

Hey steve101,
A lot of people put forward their ideas in a way where they argue a point to validate and reinforce their existing beliefs, rather than take all comments in and use 'the bigger picture' of knowledge and wisdom shared to then have a more educated opinion.
Maybe we do get all dumbed down and lose the ability to rationalise things intelligently as much as we should.
The Liberal Party has become infamous for their 3 word slogans recently.
Maybe they think we're not intelligent enough to understand any more than that.

But people who actively take part in discussions are still taking part in the learning process (even if some are a little close minded) and thats a good thing.
It's generally good when people share thoughts and ideas.

I agree with your criticisms of democracy.
The 2 party system is a system of 'pass the baton'.
I have other criticisms of democracy too, in democracy the 51% of people can take away the rights of the 49%, so if your in the 49% you don't have freedom.
Democracy also allows a country to be slowly stripped of all its wealth and infrastructure to arrive at an eventual place called Austerity which demands a banking dictatorship.
Democracy also creates problems that it cannot fix itself.
Freedom of religion (a good ideal) and Islamification (a potential threat to our safety and way of life).
Also 'If they make the rules for us, we should make the rules for them'.
Without that there's no REAL balance of power between us and them.
How about keeping election promises, or not lying to the Australian people, or being accountable when they make bad decisions?

But I don't necessicarily oppose democracy just because I criticise it, I just try to keep it real by understaning its boundaries and respecting its failings.

Hey Rache,
The article you posted was interesting and highlights problems with the system in rural areas.

Capitalism might be a fair and reasonable system, but is it fair when for example you have 2 skilled people both looking for work and willing to work, but there's only one job on offer?
Someone has to lose out.

Its one thing to make people try harder to find employment, but another thing altogether to exploit them as cheap labour when their aren't any jobs, (and then starve them for non compliance).

On the other end of the scale in the suburbs the government lets companies like Coles and Woolworths who profit from welfare give jobs such as trolley collection to non Australians.

It's not really fair to have a system where foreigners can take Aussie jobs, while at the same time Aussies are punished or exploited for not getting jobs that essentially don't exist.

The related story provided more info as well.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-10/remote-wa-community-left-without-basics-under-work-for-the-dole/7400648

Hey Rojama,
Sorry for the slow reply and thanks for sharing your ideas.
The 'basic income' is an interesting idea as its another example of base level socialism.
But while your idea involves moving numbers around my idea focuses more on 'streamlining' the WFTD system as well.

I think its pretty harsh that your on your third year of work for the dole.
Did you get a choice of what you wanted to do?
Does the extra money they give you even cover your transport costs to and from WFTD?
Are there any job opportunities near where you live that your WFTD helps you be better prepared for?
Are you getting any skills or experience or does WFTD help you in any way at all?
Do you like wht you do?

I think that whatever your doing, you firstly deserve more money for making the effort, and it should be meaningful work thats also balanced with the opportunity to get skills and experience, thus improving your potential to help yourself get good paying work.

If your doing your third year on work for the dole, just the fact that you've proven willing to make the effort means you deserve more money and better opportunities, and in some ways the systems let you down.
If they don't help you to do better, and give you fair reward for what you do then they are essentially exploiting you.

I found this news article about the $1 sale of Rio Tinto's Blair Athol coal mine.
They're saying the cleanup bill could be a worth several hundered million dollars.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-12/rio-tinto-selling-massive-queensland-coal-mine-for-dollar/7588916

But whilst others see a liability I see a potential opportunity.
The cleanup of a place like this could provide a perfect place to train people skills.

Say we took that cleanup expense and put it towards skills and training whilst giving unemployed people the opportunity to earn more for their WFTD?

If they gave people the opportunity to earn & learn - get the opportunity to earn double their dole payment I think some people would jump at the opportunity, even if people had to live out there in the mobile dwellings I spoke about getting WFTD people to build or assemble.

Suddenly these people who are on the poverty line with little dispensable income (paying so much in rent) now have a good deal of dispensable income.

You could make it fun, combining working and training and even take people to the coast near the great barrier reef on their weekends and let them get their boat and jetski licences as earned rewards or spent training credits, even motorbikes training courses which they could use where required on site, or even let them use small atv's.
(safer one's, like this one. http://www.polaris.com/en-au/ranger-utv/ranger-ev-avalanche-gray).

How much do we spend on a persons welfare (from birth) health and education over a lifetime?
Whats the minimum we spend just for person to become grade 10 drop-out?
And how much more does it cost when that person doesn't become productive spends a lifetime on welfare? Maybe even time in jail?
Its worth more to just give people a chance to do better.
Just give them the opportunity and they will choose it.

Hi Armchair Critic,

Thanks for your response to my suggestions and here are the answers you are seeking to your questions.

1.Did you get a choice of what you wanted to do?

I was provided with a few options but they are limited to what is available in my part of Australia, in other words I don't live in a capital city.

2.Does the extra money they give you even cover your transport costs to and from WFTD?

There is public transport options available but its not a frequent service, lucky I own a motor vehicle so I choose to use that.

3.Are there any job opportunities near where you live that your WFTD helps you be better prepared for?

Yes but actual positions available are far and few between because the nature of the work is not in a high demand industry

4.Are you getting any skills or experience or does WFTD help you in any way at all?

No, I've done this kind of work before but years ago, it does not teach my anything I didn't know before.

Do you like wht you do?

Yes, but opportunities in my field are very limited in this country and even when positions become available, they invariably are located in capital cities like Melbourne or Sydney or even overseas. Moving to capital cities is out of the question because of not only relocation costs but also once your there, the high costs in accommodation compared to rural/regional areas of Australia.

I will add that my employment services provider has deferred my WFTD positioning because they say they are in the process of securing my WFTD locations at the moment.

(continued below)

I don't appear in "official employment statistics" because I do piece meal work (that is work that pays below the federal minimum award hourly rate). Have to do this to top up the dole money otherwise cost of living expenses become too much of a struggle despite having a low level standard of living.

At this stage of the discussion, I would like to add that the federal government should consider raising the amount of money one can earn before the dole starts getting scaled back. At the moment it is $100 a fortnight (thanks to Julia Gillard's labor government). I'd suggest something like $150 or more as a fair and equitable start. Otherwise where is the incentive to go out and do ANY kind of work and that includes very lowly paid piece meal work?

Lucky I am a very resilient person that owns their own home otherwise I could apply for the DSP under the condition of clinical depression, So I am classified by the system as underemployed. We are a growing group within Australian society, I can assure you I'm not the only one.

I will add that I have a broad base of life experiences in both public and private sectors and have even attempted to start up my own businesses in the past. Such is the egalitarian flavor or Australian society! too have a "fair go", something of significant value in anyone's books.

Hey Rojama,
Thanks for sharing the info.
I'm glad they gave you some options in what you wanted to do and that at the very least you enjoy what your doing.

But the fact you are on your third year, at under award wages feels like exploitation to me, and I think the system is letting you down; not doing all it can to help you be all you can be, as such...
I think people who are willing to do their bit should be given meaningful work, the opportunity to get fast skills and experience (enhancing their ability to gain real employment) and be compensated more fairly for making the effort.
I also agree that raising the amount of money one can earn before the dole starts getting scaled back is a good idea and provides incentive.
I commend you on your efforts, and for your 'have a fair go' attitude.
I hope they continue to find you work you enjoy, whist finding ways to make the system better and fairer for you. Also I hope they help you gain proper employment where you're able to be get paid what your worth.

I believe they could do a lot to make the system better for everyone.

Thanks for the feedback Armchair Critic,
I'm in half a mind to write to my local federal MP and request that something be done about raising how much one can earn from work before the newstart allowance starts getting cut back. Funny thing is though, my local member is labor and as we all know, LNP is the ruling majority at the moment..