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The Forum > General Discussion > Will the voterts fall for labors spin again?

Will the voterts fall for labors spin again?

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As we are aware, Labor is promising to go off and spend like drunken sailors again, but this time they will have to borrow every cent, and most importantly, without the safety net of the mining boom this time around.

I say this because the mining boom created so much confidence in the workplace, that going backwards as fast as we did slipped under the radar for so many so as to speak. Times have now changed and every red cent will be noticed.

Surely anyone considering handing them their vote would be asking for evidence as to how labor can afford the promises they are making. Surely!
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 23 June 2016 6:54:57 AM
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To me all that I have known politicians will do or say anything to get into power BUT once in the excuses for not doing what they said have no immediate consequences.

If politicians were removed for not upholding there promises we would have a much better system.
Posted by Philip S, Thursday, 23 June 2016 9:36:06 AM
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As we are aware that neolibs have actually run up a debt twice as big as Labour and that they put a toxic malignant narcissist into the position of Prime Minister, before removing him themselves. why would anyone ever want to vote for them.
When you know that their whole reason for being in power is to hand presents to their money suppliers and that includes privatisation of everything that is worth selling, including Medicare, you know who is telling porkies.
Posted by Robert LePage, Thursday, 23 June 2016 9:54:54 AM
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Govt just borrowed another $900m.

Not repaid till April 2026.

Net debt $288b - up $113 billion since 2013 election....
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 23 June 2016 10:17:10 AM
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When will the lies from the lying supporters of the lying liars party ever stop? You rightards have gone way beyond spin.
Posted by mikk, Thursday, 23 June 2016 11:09:20 AM
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Would it not be more transparent if policy announcements came with the likes of 'we are going to pledge x$ for ?, and in order to do so we are going to borrow that money, or we are going to cut funding to ?, or a combination of both'. This should apply to all parties by the way as they all do the same thing. However, we are talking about the labor party who has a terrible economic record, and they don't have the mining boom to soften any potential blow.

The libs were not allowed to fix our debt problem, and labor wont want to, so where does that leave us.

Poirot, two things, firstly sorry about my heading, early morning syndrome, and secondly, I have the info but don't how to extract it because its beyond me. Will try though and if that fails Saul has been kind enough to offer his assistance.

BTW, what was the extra debt accumulated on. Do you know?
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 23 June 2016 11:27:29 AM
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I'm as anti-Labor as it is possible to be, but the Coalition under Turnbull is no better. I would rather see Labor in some sort of a minority arrangement (only because we only have a real choice of two parties) and the Coalition sitting it out while they get rid of Turnbull, Pyne etc., and return to the more conservative party that they were, and are still expected to be. No party which has totally warped or abandoned its core values should be rewarded with government. My personal action this year will be to put Liberal and Labor last and second last in the hope that they will pull themselves together no matter who wins.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 23 June 2016 11:40:05 AM
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Personally I think the debt crisis is about to break through the next term of National Government. If Labour are in they will make it infinitely worse with more spending like increasing the already bloated (Largest media in Australia) ABC. Then we can look forward to theft of our assets and really bad outcomes for the average Joe (Like me).
If LNP get in I think the ABC will hang any crisis against them as they did Jeff Kennet's Victoria solution.
Here is a thought, forget Medicare lets sell of the ABC!
Posted by JBowyer, Thursday, 23 June 2016 1:26:01 PM
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One thing is absolutely clear, Labor will always outspend the liberals, and not only that, they will in the senate block any savings that they can, including those they promised, and at the next election promise again to implement most of them. What liars.

Labor has no economic credibility.

Gross debt as % GDP

Labor assumes office 2007 - 9.7%
Labor leaves office 2013 - 35%
Today - 39%

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/australia/government-debt-to-gdp
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 23 June 2016 2:17:34 PM
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Abbott said 60% debt to GDP was ok. after he was fraudulently placed in office.
Posted by doog, Thursday, 23 June 2016 3:01:52 PM
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ttbn,

Tell me why you don't like Turnbull?

His govt has exactly the same policies as the govt under Abbott.

I'm curious as to why you find him so bad when he's upheld the entirety of Abbott's odious IPA agenda.

Not enough flags?

Not enough chest-beating?
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 23 June 2016 3:08:07 PM
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Doog - "Abbott fraudulently placed in office"? Please explain.
Posted by JBowyer, Thursday, 23 June 2016 3:18:32 PM
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Abbott ran a program of lies, and more lies, and when he got elected his program was totally different. As you know. That is why he got sacked by public opinion.
Posted by doog, Thursday, 23 June 2016 3:27:34 PM
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Doog - Public opinion cannot sack anyone. I few demented souls in the ABC do not count either lol.
Mate, labour politicians including Gillard and Rudd told lies as well. I think you need to have a re-think on all this.
I think we should expand on "Phobias". If it is irrational to fear the beheading, murdering, lying and repression of islam then it is certainly as much a crime to fear Tony Abbott.
TA was giving our country the start of a sort out we so sorely need. Never mind Doog the labour party will ride to the rescue and really stuff us up. It is what we deserve for even listening to those total fools.
Long live Tony Abbott I say!
Posted by JBowyer, Thursday, 23 June 2016 3:53:59 PM
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You are 100% wrong there. Public opinion did get Abbott sacked. Abbott was a one man party he wanted to be the next generation dictator, just like in Singapore. As you are aware.
Turnbull has been a disappointment and does not deserve another term. You cannot take money from one program so you can start up another. We need to properly fund the ones that we already have without new ones. Besides that the libs need a clean out. The Conservatives need to make their own party
Posted by doog, Thursday, 23 June 2016 4:32:17 PM
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Doog is right of course.
If Abbott was popular with the voters, do you think the majority of his fellow Libs would have thrown him out of the top job? Of course not.

I doubt any of the politicians in parliament today could say they were completely truthful with the electorate.

The latest debacle re Medicare proves that both Shorten and Turnbull are lying through their teeth. If the AMA smell a rat re the privatization of Medicare, then the rats are most certainly there.

The current campaign being run on TV re people being encouraged not to go to the Emergency Departments unless they have real emergency problems, and saying to go to their GP or after hours clinics instead, makes me laugh.
Medicare payments to GP surgeries are not keeping up with the cost of living, so bulk-billing is decreasing at a rapid rate.

It is free medical treatment at Emergency Departments for any medical problem
that keeps people coming in there, and no other reason.
Medicare is a joke.
Posted by Suseonline, Friday, 24 June 2016 12:35:15 AM
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The lib MP's thought that TA was a problem with the electorate and MT would solve it for them. Democracy at it's best and the result of that will be known in just over a weeks time.
Couple of nuggets of fact. Australia has more doctors than it needs. These Doctors are by normal standards handsomely paid. The AMA is a totally political organisation. Get a group of doctors together and all they will talk about is money lol.
Re Medicare and rats. Firstly if you made the average punter pay $5 then normal people would grumble and pay. The dross would rather die than pay. Go to any hospital and see these hero's rock up. My favourite was a young bloke who fell off his skateboard a few days before and told the staff to ensure the safety of his expensive Light Sabre toy lol. It would be funny if people were not working two jobs to pay for this. Mind you when it took twelve people to lift a woman who had collapsed in casualty I thought that under-staffing is probably not an issue.
We can run a whole thread on Public Service and especially Medical feather bedding and waste.
Posted by JBowyer, Friday, 24 June 2016 8:04:14 AM
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That is shocking having 12 people standing around waiting for someone to fall over. Is that true or is did you read that in the Australian.
There are people in society that cause their own emergencies by their own consumption of alcohol or drugs. Do you separate these people as Abbott would do or do you treat them for their ailments.
There is going to be a whole lot more people relying on public hospitals the way pensions are going. Medibank has gone up 11% / Fn in two years. The pension has gone up 1 % / fn each year. Medibank payments take the entire pension rise, which leaves nothing for any other rises.
Abbott and hockey factored everything to cut in after the 2016 election. So all of that will happen January 2017.
Posted by doog, Friday, 24 June 2016 9:37:52 AM
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Doog what happened was I went into the emergency in the middle of the morning. A nurse stopped me and said hold on a minute, I did. I noticed twelve people (I counted them) around a person on the floor. I did not peer in as I felt some privacy was required but could not help seeing them lift the person up and carry them through the large swing doors.
I mention this because there was no shortage of people there. My point is still that people are always happy to go if it is "Free", i.e. they do not have to pay. Five dollars would reduce those figures and in answer we get a spurious ad where a "Mother" is going to die because she would have to pay $5? Instead of that, the usual suspects berate their current ogre TA. Five years ago it would have been John Howard.
Do you not understand everything has to be paid for? Rudd and Gillard are very free with other peoples money but both get immediate extravagent pensions as soon as they bail out. They should be mightily ashamed of themselves and certainly not your heroes. Or anyone else's heroes either.
Posted by JBowyer, Friday, 24 June 2016 10:31:22 AM
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Since the 2013 election...

Business profits down by 11%.

Private business investment down by a whopping 27%.
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 24 June 2016 10:33:33 AM
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Business confidence fell through the floor when Abbott started with his unheard of antics after the election. The only thing to lift that is a change of govt. Abbott is still a danger while he is still in parliament. He may even get the ase.
Public hospitals are meant to be free. So you don’t know where those 12 people came from, but you are quite willing to condone the hospital for having 12 people standing around. That sounds like the assumptions of an Abbott worshiper to me.
The worst liar of any election campaign ever was Abbott. He sold his backside to get elected and then what did he do. He turned against the very voters that put him there. That is why the voters went against Abbott and caused his dramatic back stabbing. Just rewards for just injustice.
Posted by doog, Friday, 24 June 2016 12:27:08 PM
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Doog, my tip is Turnbull will win, then get rolled, either by Morrison, Dutton, or even Abbott. Someone with some balls at least.

As for self inflicted medical conditions.
Obesity, unless its a chemical imbalance, user pays.

Smoking, excessive drinking, user pays.

Dugs, lock them in a safe room with bottled water and check them in the morning.

The point is that will an aging population, most having paid their taxes, we must stop wasting money on preventable issues.

The only free medical should be through hospitals, and if its an emergency then ambulances have priority. The free lunches must stop.
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 24 June 2016 1:04:06 PM
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JBower, unfortunately, charging everyone $5.00 to attend an emergency department would be a false economy. There are definitely people out there of low intelligence, extreme poverty, or mentally ill, who would just not go and see ANY medical person anywhere, if they had to pay anything at all.

This would be fine if it just lowered the numbers of non-emergency patients clogging up the ED, but unfortunately it would only mean that these same patients would end up being brought in to ED much sicker, and thus costing the health department much more in the long run than seeing them for free in the first place!

Yes, I can remember being happy to support TA when he 'promised' to give us a 'world class' Parental Leave Support system in Australia. This was ultimately dropped after he was elected. I don't know why I ever thought he would come good on his signature policy in the first place...
Posted by Suseonline, Friday, 24 June 2016 1:05:04 PM
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Poirot,

Last I heard, you were ignoring my posts.

Still, I quite happy to give the reasons why I loathe ('don't like is too gentle) Turnbull.

He did to Abbott what he criticised Labor for doing to Rudd, even to the point of sympathising with Rudd, directly, in parliament. Turnbull is, therefore, a hypocrite.

I disagree that he is following the same policies as Abbott; the polls show that most people share my disagreement - Labor or Liberal. And, it is quite clear that an Abbott-led Coalition would have romped in, unlike Turnbull's motley lot who are very much at risk of being kicked out, as they deserve to be.

There is also the obvious, apparent to everyone. Turnbull's entire rationale for stabbing a first term PM in the back, a la Labor, was that Abbott was a poor communicator. Turnbull himself has failed miserably as a communicator, and stuffed up on in every area he criticised Abbott. That's why the Coalition is now in the parlous state it is. If he remains PM after the election, he is going to have a hard row ahead of him that Abbott would not have; an even more hostile senate being the least of his worries. There are probably already plans to get rid of him, win or not. Turnbull has put the seats of some of his supporters, like Christopher Pyne in peril and, no matter how much they have adjusted their beliefs to curry favour with 'progressives', they don't want to lose their beaut jobs - or the money they are not capable of getting anywhere else.

There is nothing to like about Turnball.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 24 June 2016 3:27:13 PM
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ttbn,

I agree that Turnbull has failed as a communicator.

Problem is that he has nothing of substance to communicate that would enthral the average voter.

Mind you, Abbott was pretty pathetic in that way too...although in entirely different way.

"I disagree that he is following the same policies as Abbott..."

This what I don't understand...can you point to a policy direction that differs from the IPA agenda which Abbott championed?
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 24 June 2016 3:46:52 PM
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You are right Poirot, Turnbull has disappointed many people who thought he could revive the Coalition's chances after Abbott became too toxic (crazy?) for even his own party members.

Ttbn is incorrect in suggesting that the Coalition would have romped it in if Abbott was still the leader. The majority of voters who still thought such a bumbling, far too conservative bloke could continue his job well were lost when he 'knighted' Prince Phillip! (Mind you, the raw onion eating episode still sticks in my mind too.)

Surely that act alone will go down in Australia political history as truly the most laughable action ever? Nope, they were definitely right to cut him loose.
Posted by Suseonline, Friday, 24 June 2016 4:33:53 PM
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Doog - there you go again"Public Hospitals are supposed to be free"? Please explain? You mean that the doctors get paid handsomely and so do the other medical staff in fact hospitals are over staffed and very well paid. They are not free. Nothing is free.
You are deluded into thinking there is a magic pudding that replenishes itself as you eat it. Government make nothing, earn nothing as it all comes from the taxpayer. Have a think about it.
Posted by JBowyer, Friday, 24 June 2016 10:12:44 PM
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JBower, where did you get your facts about hospitals being over-staffed, and medical staff being 'well paid'? According to who? You?
Do you work in the health industry then?
I do, and you have no idea what you are on about.

As I said, it would be false economy to charge people to use public hospitals on top of their Medicare levy and taxes. That would only serve to keep many sick people away until they are very ill, by which time the hospital will need to spend far more money on them.
Posted by Suseonline, Friday, 24 June 2016 10:34:56 PM
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Piorot, wrong thread I know, but the libs are paying about $40 billion per year in interest on Labors debt. That's a huge slice of the additional debt they have rung up in less than three years in office. So add to this the money spent on dealing with labors illegals debacle, along with the cuts Abbott proposed that were blocked, and I doubt much, if any, of the new debt is actually the libs own debt. Wouldn't you agree.

As for free medical, as JBower quite correctly states, nothing is Free. Just because some low life druggie pays nothing to see a doctor doesn't mean its free, it just means someone else has paid the bill and that's the whole problem with the entitlement brigade, the one that TA tried to bring undone, but failed.

While I myself am a Abbott convert, having on this very site stated that he had kicked too many 'own goals' and needed to go, it turns out he was the better of the two to get the hard job done. Of cause if you, or anyone else belongs to the 'entitlement brigade', or those who bury their heads in the sand and say we don't have a problem, then its pretty much pointless trying to convince you otherwise. So I guess it would be a case of 'let the future generations clean up the mess' because we don't want to tackle the tough issues. So by all means just keep expecting free everything, but some of us realize its not actually free.
Posted by rehctub, Saturday, 25 June 2016 11:54:03 AM
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rehctub,

Though you're kinda dear to me on this forum - you keep rattling the same line....gleefully ignoring anything counter that is put to you.

If you wish to examine the "entitlement brigade", you should start your analysis with the top 10% - you know, all those negative gearers who think the taxpayer should help fund their investments.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 25 June 2016 12:23:01 PM
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Suse - I get my "overstaffed" from the fact that labour/unions increased the number of nurses per patient ratio, made nursing a degree subject and know that rich doctors support them. Doctors earn a handsome salary from the hospital and with added private work would put in more super money than the average health worker earns. Nurses are similarly well paid. I am sure the other miscellaneous medical workers are properly paid. In this context of course less than a Doctor puts in his super.
That leaves cleaners, porters etc. Their leadership can run to brothels and fine wine expenses on the backs of those workers. That's a whole new subject though. I remember that pipsqueak Howes braying "We will come after you" when talking about corrupt union officials. Well I think there is only one in clink and the rest will pay nothing back and anyway you have already forgotten it!
Posted by JBowyer, Saturday, 25 June 2016 3:45:46 PM
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Don't be ridiculous JBower. No Union has the power to force any health provider to provide a certain number of nurses per patient ratio. There are no formal nurse to patient ratios in any health organisation in Australia, private or public, only 'recommendations'. And even if an employer 'promises fair nurse to patient ratios' it soon goes out the door as soon as anyone rings in sick!

And you can rest assured that no hospital will do what is 'recommended' staff ratio wise, because they see it as too expensive. In what way do you think Aussie nurses are well-paid? As opposed to who? The rapidly aging population of nurses in Australia does not support the notion that it is a well paid enough job to attract anywhere near as many new young nurses as it used to.
Posted by Suseonline, Saturday, 25 June 2016 4:58:04 PM
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Suse I am staggered. Whenever I have been in a hospital there always seems to be plenty of nurses?
I have noticed that Public servants have always got at least half a day to moan how busy they are and how much has to be done but that could be my prejudice coming through.
I will defer to you that what you say is true and I am now going to take that nice Mr Andrews to task as I thought there was an actual nominated nurse to patient ratio.
Thank you for your assistance.
Posted by JBowyer, Saturday, 25 June 2016 5:25:55 PM
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No problems JBower.
As it happens, I have just spent 3 days in hospital for minor surgery, and as I was being discharged yesterday, the poor nurses who were looking after me were all gearing up to do double shifts that evening. The weekend shifts were not covered well at that stage either.
I felt sorry for them, and glad I am now working in community nursing instead of hospital wards. I'm getting too old for double shifts!
Posted by Suseonline, Saturday, 25 June 2016 9:39:10 PM
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Poirot, just so we are on the same page, are you talking about the 10% who not only pick up the slack, but also pay the bills, because if these are the ones you refer to, tell me, why don't they deserve what they get?

Having been in that bracket myself from time to time, do you think it was fair that my kids got nothing just because their dad took a huge gamble, taking my limited education into account, and ultimately earned too much.

The fact is working too hard is one of the few areas where you actually get penalized for doing so well, and the bit that is extremely frustrating is that those who benefit from your efforts, often with little to no effort are the (entitlement brigade) as rather than be grateful, they often despise your efforts with statements such as 'capitalists or snobs'.

Having been in my type of businesses all my life, there are perks that make it worth while, however I feel sorry for a specialist doctor or a barrister who has no access to such yet, after many years of hard work gets frowned upon for being a successful risk taker. It really sucks. And now you want to take negative gearing away from them as well. As if they have not already done enough for society.

Underachievers is a terrible class of people and they are growing in number as the gap between the haves and have nots widens.

As I have often said, we are all born with an opportunity to fail, its just that some of us choose not to, and you wonder why so many in cash businesses don't declare their true incomes. Its not rocket science, it's because they don't get rewarded for working hard if they do, they get punished instead. Go figure!
Posted by rehctub, Sunday, 26 June 2016 9:13:18 AM
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rehctub,

"The fact is working too hard is one of the few areas where you actually get penalized for doing so well..."

Other people in the lower socio-economic strata work hard too - and the top 10-20% expect those people to subsidise their investments.

"Underachievers is a terrible class of people and they are growing in number as the gap between the haves and have nots widens."

Don't pull out that odious lower middle-class twaddle...it means nothing.

All sorts of people work hard...it's only the top echelon that expect the lower orders to subsidise their investment decisions (in this country)...as "The Economist" analysed - it's a crazy policy.
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 26 June 2016 10:43:40 AM
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Suze - I remember reading about the Pentridge Prison warders (Since closed) Officer A would call in sick for his late shift. Officer B would have to take the late shift as well at treble plus rates. The following week the favour was returned by Officer B who got Officer A a double shift at the increased rate. This ended up as so expensive it was all privatized.
Now I am not suggesting paragons of virtue such as nurses would call in sick in a fraudulent manner, but it makes you think dosen't it?
Posted by JBowyer, Sunday, 26 June 2016 10:59:40 AM
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JB, the whole privatization movement has happened due to snouts in the trough. That, and total inefficiencies within public work places.

Poirot, by all means remove negative gearing, but don't then come and complain about shortage of rentals, or unaffordable rents.

As for working hard, my boy is now getting a taste of what working for yourself is really like, as I have told him to exp0ect to work at least 6 days a week, if not 7, and perhaps one afternoon off a week. 85 hours is the norm, and even a low income earner working 85 hours a week would make plenty.

People expect to work a Mon-Fri 38 hour week and own everything. Just not possible, especially without highly demanded skills.
Posted by rehctub, Sunday, 26 June 2016 6:10:08 PM
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