While most elections are fought on the margins, occasionally an event occurs that shocks the psyche and changes opinion. I believe that this is one of them.

"A gunman shot dead 50 revellers at a Florida gay nightclub last night and injured 53 others after storming the venue armed with an assault rifle and a handgun, making it the worst mass shooting in American history.

The FBI was called in last night after the massacre in Orlando’s Pulse nightclub, packed with 350 people, was declared “an act of terrorism”.

The shooter has been identified as Omar Mateen, 29, of Port Saint Lucie, Florida, whose parents are from Afghanistan. Counter terrorism officials said he worked as a security guard, had a gun licence and was a US citizen. Officials are still trying to understand the motive for the attack but said there are some initial indications he was attracted to radical Islamic ideology."

Mateen also, it's alleged made a 911 call immediately before beginning his operation to declare his loyalty to ISIS and to make sure his motivations were clearly understood and on the public record.
Sadly it was only a matter of time before a Gay bar was hit, there have been several similar attacks foiled in other countries, notably the 2007 London car bomb plot.
Gun control and background checks made no difference in this case as the attacker was apparently a licensed shooter and worked as a guard at a juvenile detention centre, a job which surely would require a clean Police record and a thorough background check.
The only slip up so far, judging from the limited information available was that he was able to keep his gun permit and firearms even after twice being investigated by Police for Islamic extremist beliefs.
The only pattern here is that the U.S based Islamic radicals who've been successful and completed their attacks have for the most part been trusted, well educated, well integrated and mentally stable young people from middle class backgrounds.

Just in:
Father of America's most deadly mass shooter wants top Afghan president job and had TV show where he showed support for the Taliban
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3637968/Father-America-s-deadly-mass-shooter-wanted-Afghan-president-job-TV-showed-support-Taliban.html#ixzz4BOs1vwxm
There are also reports that ISIS propagandists had publicly declared their intentions to carry out attacks in Florida this weekend, even publishing a hit list of American citizens late last week.

'anti' racist still in denial. They will still violently protest anyone telling the truth.

SM,

The question you should be asking is how it's possible for any nutter - religious or not - to get hold an AR-17 in a supposedly civilised society?

Here's what the US far right-wing Republicans did directly after the shootings in San Bernardino.

"Senate Republicans rejected a bill that aims to stop suspected terrorists from legally buying guns, on Thursday. The vote came a day after at least 14 people were killed during the San Bernardino massacre in California by two suspects, including a woman said to have pledged allegiance to ISIS.

Forty-five senators voted for the bill and 54 voted against it. One Democrat, Sen. Heidi Heitkamp of North Dakota, and one Republican, Sen. Mark Kirk of Illinois, crossed party lines.

The measure would have denied people on the terrorist watch list the ability to buy guns."

"Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), who sponsored the legislation, argued that former President George W. Bush initially proposed the legislation in 2007, and the Obama administration also supports it.

“If you need proof that Congress is a hostage to the gun lobby, look no further than today’s vote blocking a bill to prevent known or suspected terrorists from buying guns and explosives,” she said. “Congress has been paralyzed by the gun lobby for years, while more and more Americans are killed in mass shootings. The carnage won’t stop until Congress finds the courage to stand up to the gun lobby and protect the nation.”

The NRA did not respond to a request on Friday for comment. But the gun rights lobby group told MSBC last month it wants to ensure that Americans who are wrongly on the terrorist list are are afforded their constitutional right to due process."

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/gop-blocks-bill-stop-terrorists-buying-guns

Noting that "2" of the many hundreds of almost weekly mass shootings in the last few years in the US have had any suggestion of a Muslim/terror connection.

Those whacky right-wingers...they are a problem.

Poirot,

I am a strong supporter of gun control laws, and agree that ready access to guns contributed to this outrage. Similarly I am not a Trump supporter. However, that is not the point of this thread.

We are heading into a presidential election where one of the candidates has warned against muslim extremists and the other has strongly denied that they are a risk. Who is going to benefit most from this?

This is the worst massacre since 9/11 and is not the only muslim inspired attack since then.

SM,

Fair enough.

It appears, however, to be more of a gay hate crime.

No doubt, Trump will take full advantage of this tragedy seeing as his party assisted this cretin to get hold of an automatic weapon - he's already tweeted on it.

Oh yeah the gun laws, nothing to do with Islam. The pigheaded denial and ignorance shows why the West is stuffed. The 'rationalist' are exactly the opposite. A two year old can reason better.

Poirot,

"The gunman who killed 50 people at a gay nightclub in Florida, called police during the massacre to talk about the Islamic State terrorist group."

It might seem trite, but ISIS is not a big supporter of gay rights. I also think trying to dismiss this as just a gay hate thing is not going to fool anyone.

It doesn't help either that the shooter was a registered democrat, or that an Imam at an Orlando mosque was advocating death to homosexuals.

If Trump did not use this for advantage I would be surprised. I wonder what Clinton's reaction will be?

Just a few clarifications.
The Imam who gave a sermon on homosexuality in Orlando this past week was a Shia cleric, the gunman was Sunni and had nothing to do with that particular Mosque.
The gunman reportedly prayed in the evenings at a mosque under the spiritual guidance of a well respected Imam who is known for his public stand against violence and intolerance.
The idea that this is a crime motivated by hatred of homosexuals comes only from the gunman's father, who seems to be a political extremist in his own right, his statements appear self serving and must be taken with a grain of salt. Other people who'd known Mateer said he had no particular problem with homosexuals, that in recent times he'd had an openly Gay friend and happily socialised with that person and other homosexuals.

"Make the personal political" is the founding principle of what we commonly identify as the "Left", such only people see events events as the Orlando outrage through that filter and utilise projection and imagination to make sense of what to them are confusing scenarios.
Nationalists hold the opposite view, "Everything is political, nothing is personal", Islamic terrorism operates on the same conviction, violent jihad is about a greater set of ideals and a greater reward for martyrdom in the name of global Islam, personal feelings don't enter into it at all.

Poirot, "The question you should be asking is how it's possible for any nutter - religious or not - to get hold an AR-17 in a supposedly civilised society"

Would you rather he used a bomb, the flammables for which are far easier to obtain and certain to allow a huge number of indiscriminate killings and maimings, with an easy escape prior for the bomber and massive difficulties in identifying the terrorist/s responsible?

The society is civilised but he isn't. Islam is the difference and the problem. It isn't enough for its so-called 'moderates' to come out later to say that fundamentalism isn't encouraged by Islam where that clearly is the fact and reality.

What you are also NOT saying is that the extremism of gay pride and queer political activism is riling Muslims, whose beliefs are irrevocably opposed to the homosexuality that other creeds usually tolerate, but would object themselves where queer activism infringes what they wee as their religious and civil rights. For example, for both men and women to be equal and enjoy the local swimming pool at the same time. Or to be able to change or deny beliefs without being threatened with death.

None of that is to excuse this violent SOB. But pretending that it is the weapon, 'the gun dunnit', which incidentally is probably not 'automatic' as you are quick to speculate, is deliberate deception to conceal, which are the obvious cracks in the US's multicultural society. It is scary to acknowledge that smart-A Australia is not immune from such fundamentalism.

However, it does show the ineffectiveness, the weaknesses, of 'gun control'. Because a determined offender will always find some way of committing an offence. To make it simpler for you, it is part of the modus operandi of criminals to lie and break laws.

Murder has always been unlawful and doubling or tripling laws as politicians do to be popular with media talking heads is ineffective, BS.

Obama failed to deal with the social problems he talks up when he is scoring other political points.

".. but would object themselves where queer activism infringes what they SEE as their religious and civil rights."

runner,

"Oh yeah the gun laws, nothing to do with Islam. The pigheaded denial and ignorance shows why the West is stuffed. The 'rationalist' are exactly the opposite. A two year old can reason better."

Funny you should mention two year-olds...from 2015

"People are getting shot by toddlers on a weekly basis this year"

"Instead, the NRA continues to promote a response that seeks to solve gun problems with more guns, and aims to broaden the saturation of firearms in nearly every sphere of public and private life, from homes to schools to churches to bars to airports and beyond. In a country with more guns than people, it's only natural that a certain number of small children are going get their hands on an unsecured firearm, with tragic consequences."

"In 13 of the 43 total incidents, a child's self-inflicted injuries were fatal. In two other cases, another person died after being shot by a toddler: a father in Alabama, and a 1-year-old in Ohio.

In one instance, a 3-year-old managed to wound both of his parents with a single gunshot at an Albuquerque motel."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/10/14/people-are-getting-shot-by-toddlers-on-a-weekly-basis-this-year/

But it's not the insane availability of guns or the paranoid zeitgeist in the US that causes these outrages...no siree, it's Muslims!

otb,

"Would you rather he used a bomb..."

That's a bit sick.

What sort of question is that?

A crazed gunman (for whatever reason) gets hold of an automatic assault rifle - kills fifty - I go "ahem, who's responsible for his access?"

And otb responds with "Would you rather he used a bomb.."

Plumbing the depths, mate.

Not at all Poirot ....it is absolutely the Muslim in the gunman who killed all those gay people, not the gun! If they had stronger gun laws there like they do in Australia, the guns would be less available that were able to kill so many people by one loony gunman.

And, no other members of religious groups hate gay people in America do they (or even on this site)?
I think we can safely say that as awful as this killing has been, our friendly local fundy Christians have killed far more gay people in the US than any Muslim has, so I can't see why they have to rant and rave about Islam. Double standards.

Susie,
I think it is our right to know your evidence of fundamental Christians killing more homosexuals than Muslims in America.

Correction: weapon was an AR-15

.......

This from last year....

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/heres-a-map-of-all-the-mass-shootings-in-2015/

"Using data from shootingtracker.com, which is maintained by a Reddit group, we’ve updated our map that documents all the U.S. mass shootings in 2015 alone. The group defines mass shootings as incidents when at least four people are killed or wounded, including the gunman."

"According to the tracker’s data, the San Bernardino incident represents the 355th shooting this year, the Washington Post reported. The incident in San Bernardino also overshadowed another shooting in Savannah, Georgia that occurred the same day, claiming one life and injuring three others."

This also from 2015

"Oregon college shooting is 994th mass gun attack in US in three years"

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/01/obama-oregon-college-shooting-routine

"Barack Obama put words to the desperation of millions of Americans – and the despair of the rest of the world – after another mass shooting at a school in Oregon on Thursday, the latest of nearly 1,000 since his re-election in 2012.

“Somehow,” the president said, “this has become routine.

“The reporting is routine. My response here at this podium ends up being routine. The conversation in the aftermath of it,” Obama trailed off, at once frustrated and spirited at the White House. “We’ve become numb to this … We talked about this after Columbine and Blacksburg; after Tucson, after Newtown; after Aurora, after Charleston.”

America...where people have easy access to firearms - and men regularly commit mass murder.

Poirot,

This was the single worst mass shooting in US history and the biggest mass killing in the US since the 2001 9/11 attack.

Trying to paper over it as just another attack forgets that it was an Islamic inspired terrorist attack on western values.

Poirot,
Terrorists obviously want the most reliable weapons available, the AR-15 and it's variants are excellent guns, accurate, lightweight, easy to maintain and it's high velocity 5.56mm round is lethal.
Notice that in Europe and the Third World the most reliable, easily available military grade rifle available to terrorists is the Russian built AK series, colloquially known as the Kalashnikov.

Suse,
The Orlando outrage has nothing to do with Christianity so why bring it up?
There is no evidence that the Orlando shooter was "homophobic" and considerable evidence that he wasn't, his father is just covering his own butt as it looks like he's in it up to his eyeballs too.
So too the statements made by his estranged ex-wife can be ignored, the kind of violent abusive behaviour she describes is normal among Muslims and it's common for men of any background to lapse into mental illness during a marriage breakup.
When are you going to start taking Muslims, in particular religious fanatics seriously? Honestly Caliph Al Baghdadi and his lieutenants must be tearing out their hair, raising their hands in supplication to Allah and beseeching of him "Why won't the Infidel see?"
This is propaganda by the deed, pure and simple, striking at the heart of liberal democracy to divide and intimidate the American people and draw the U.S government into the "armageddon" of Islamic eschatology.
ISIS can't complete it's divine mission on earth to bring about the global Caliphate without a series of wars occurring in the region of Syria and Iraq, that's really the long and the short of it.
Suse unless you accept or at least understand Islamic metaphysics as the basis of Islamist imperialism there's no point your commenting.

Why wouldn't it be a 'boost to Trump'? Trump is the only one prepared to deal with Islam. Silly question!

OK, so there was this fundamentalist firearm that took it upon itself to meticulously plan an attack breaking umpteen laws in the process,

cleansed itself at the local mosque (hey, all of those virgins are awaiting) and

then went off to murder a number of people,

all the while supremely confident in the knowledge that its act would be sensationalised by political and reporter hacks and

it would win national, even international, notoriety for its disgusting crimes.

Now do you want to hear the one about the naughty 20 litres of high octane and the automatic lighter (shush, don't mention the brands) or the fertiliser that got together with the diesel, or the knives that regularly do very bad things...

Simplistic BS

Just don't mention the social engineering of the leftist 'Progressives' that stuffed up, or Obama's rhetoric on social problems (to get elected!) and no action thereafter.

SM,

"This was the single worst mass shooting in US history and the biggest mass killing in the US since the 2001 9/11 attack.

Trying to paper over it as just another attack forgets that it was an Islamic inspired terrorist attack on western values."

The people who denounce this despicable act by a violent nutter as Islam inspired are the same folks who lobby to give people like Mateen easy access to assault weapons.

Explain that, SM?

Explain why it's the NRA and their mates in the Republican Party - Trump's Party - who promote easy access of assault weaponry for terrorist suspects?

Explain why the NRA and their mates in the Republican Party are gung-ho on US society being swamped with firearms involved in over 30,000 deaths annually - 11,000 of those deaths from homicide - and many more injured?

Islam and secularist are cousins. Islam kills the infidel while secularist murder the unborn. No wonder the likes of Susie sprout off such nonsense.

I see the gunmans ex wife claimed he was mad because he used to beat her for not doing the washing on time. Nothing to do with the Koran giving Muslim men that right is it? Oh that's right domestic violence is the domain of middle age white men. Just ask the Government.

runner,

"....Nothing to do with the Koran giving Muslim men that right is it? Oh that's right domestic violence is the domain of middle age white men. Just ask the Government."

Interesting point....why is it "always" only males who commit these mass shootings?

Good Lord, such outrage and hysteria, Poirot will explode any minute soon. But it is the way the leftists get the booming going in their echo chamber and all of the 'Useful Idiots' frothing at the mouth with indignation.

An AR15 is no more 'automatic' than a Bic cigarette lighter. It takes a conscious decision from a human and an action each and every time the lighter is lit, or in the case of the firearm, for each and every shot that is released.

Except where the firearm is concerned there is an additional decision required, which is to identify and select the target. Nothing automatic there at all, now is there?

Worse still, terrorists don't give a hoot about the eventual fall of shot and probably hope it results in a second innocent victim as a bonus.

A number of conscious decisions and actions and all reprehensible and cowardly. Nothing automatic, except for the inevitable consequences of Islamic fundamentalism.

An AR15 is the nightmarish stuff of fevered hoplophobia imaginings and hysteria. The name is all letters and numbers. It is all metal and skeletonised. 'That' hand grip and carrying handle. So 'Hollywood Rambo'.

But the really Big Deal and why it is so 'Assault', 'high powered' and scary is the cheap black finish. Utilitarian is scary.

However the elephant in the room is the social problems, the unforeseen negative consequences of the social engineering of the leftists who call themselves 'Progressives'. No way they will ever admit that they got it so wrong. Another day, same mistakes.

The silver-tongued Obama lept at 'gun control' as the way to deflect criticism and divide and conquer. That clever spin was offered to him by master politician, Dubya Bush's "Little Deputy", John Howard. The faux Left used to rail against both.

Back to that elephant-sized lump of social problems being swept under the carpet by Obama. Different now to when he was seeking the highest office in the land, eh? Clinton is another moral BS artist.

So Poirot, what is your point.

Is it that because the Republicans gave this Islamic extremist easy access to weapons, that this act of Islamic extremist was not his fault?

A man is responsible for his actions. If the gun laws had been tighter, he would have had a smaller gun and killed less people, but remember that Monis in Aus committed terrorism with guns obtained in Aus under tough gun laws.

Trump has made combating the threat of groups such
as Islamic State a central part of his candidacy
for US Presidency so of course he's going to milk
this incident for all it's worth.

Whether it gives Trump the boost he's after in this
race - we'll have to wait and see.
It probably will - at least for some.

US officials according to Reuters reported on Sunday,
June 12th 2016, that they had no immediate evidence
directly linking the militant group to the massacre.

We've been told that the shooter, US born, Florida
resident, Omar Mateen, was killed by police.

Mateen, 29, called 911 on Sunday morning and made comments
saying he supported the Islamic State militant group,
officials said. However the matter is still under
investigation and both Hillary Clinton, and President
Obama are being cautious in their reactions and comments
because the matter is still under investigation.

Donald Trump will continue to play the effective
"fear card," in the
hope that it will boost his chances for the Presidency.
Whether he succeeds in this, only time will tell. I would
not bet against his chances of winning. He's a good salesman,
and says what many Americans want to hear.

Foxy,

For once I agree with you wholeheartedly.

The shooter had been under investigation by the FBI. Guys like this fall off the radar when their beliefs alone should be enough to quarantine them from society.

If a "war" on terror exists, he should have been interned, yes, just for his beliefs. That's what happens in war, enemy sympathizers on home soil are interned until the end of hostilities.

To protect normal citizens it's either internment or allow paramilitary groups to do the dirty work, as under the English in Northern Ireland.

' Interesting point....why is it "always" only males who commit these mass shootings?'

Poirot

just have a little look at Isis sister Hamas and you will see there has been multiple attacks by young girl suicide attacks in Israel. Most go unreported as they don't fit the narrative of the Israel haters who are so prominent among our leftist media.

It all does not matter. All we can do is try and make it more
difficult for these outrages to occur.
First moslems should not be allowed to be security guards,
the majority in Australia are moslems.
Moslems should not be allowed to work on airports.
Similar risky jobs should be banned from employing moslems.

Now the ladies here will be screaming PC slogans about me saying that,
but be damned, I travel by air irregularly and I don't want to be like
the Russian holiday makers on their way home.

So the PC bleeding hearts don't like it, tough !
Let the moslems put up with it, it is their religion that is behind
it all. If they ever reform it then we could reconsider where they
can be employed.
After all you won't let a pilot who has been drinking inside 18 hours fly.

SM,

"A man is responsible for his actions. If the gun laws had been tighter, he would have had a smaller gun and killed less people, but remember that Monis in Aus committed terrorism with guns obtained in Aus under tough gun laws."

He did...after being squarely on the radar for quite some time...you do know ASIO attended every one of his court appearances in the year leading up to the siege?

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/aug/19/asio-agents-attended-all-court-dates-of-lindt-cafe-gunman-in-year-before-seige

Odd that.

Here's how the script goes.

Orlando shooting: For Republicans, it's easier to ban Muslims than guns

"In December last year Syed Rizwan Farook and his wife Tashfeen Malik armed themselves with AR-15s - the same type of weapon used to kill 50 people in Orlando - and murdered 14 people at a Christmas party in San Bernardino, California, in what was soon classified as a terrorist attack.

The following day Republicans in Congress blocked a bill that would have banned people who were on the terrorist watch list from buying guns. The National Rifle Association opposed the ban on the grounds the list might contain mistakes, and some people might unfairly have their right to bear arms infringed upon.

The NRA's lackeys in Congress did as they were told, as they always do.

Since then Donald Trump has become the Republican Party's presumptive presidential nominee on a platform that includes a proposal to ban all Muslims from entering America "until we figure out what is going on."

But we already know what is going on. Over 40,000 Americans are dying each year partly because they live in a society in which it is more politically viable to propose banning Muslims than regulate gun sales."

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/orlando-shooting-for-republicans-its-easier-to-ban-muslims-than-guns-20160613-gphrpr.html#ixzz4BRMx4Lph

otb,

Okay it's semi-automatic...from the article..."in a nine second video taken by a bystander, more than 20 rounds can be heard fired in rapid succession".

But don't let me spoil your big chance for a Muslim bash, folks.

...and while you're at it, try to completely overlook the fact that 99.99% of the people needlessly slaughtered in the almost daily mass shootings in America are slaughtered by non Muslims.

And so the madness continues ! Orchestrated this time by some deluded young man who thinks it best that he should aggressively display his unqualified love and support for the tenets of Islams, strict Sharia law.

Or alternatively, his overt abhorrence for all gays, and other such individuals of similar sexual proclivities. By barbarically massacring over fifty odd souls, who're merely out to enjoy good food and music and generally enjoying themselves ?

What can be done ? By all accounts this fellow was born and raised in the United States, so irrespective of his ethnic origins, he's just an ordinary American kid? Would much tougher gun laws provide any realistic relief from this sort of senseless slaughter ? I wouldn't have thought so, given if you want a gun no matter how regulated a place may be, you'll always manage to lay your hands on one, if the money's right ?

This shooter was born in America, and so is not such a boost to Trump's position on barring Muslim immigrants from the US.

The New York Times newspaper today stated that "A former co-worker, Daniel Gilroy, said Mr. Mateen had talked often about killing people and had voiced hatred of gays, blacks, women and Jews." That description could well be applied to many people of Christian and other faiths (or no faith) in America as well couldn't it? It could apply to Trump and his followers too.

We are all well aware of the hatred of gay people and lifestyles amongst many Americans, without any input from the Muslim population at all. Obviously, this was more of a hate killing in a country that has a long history of hate killings against black people and gay people.

This guy stated he was "inspired" by ISIS, and that may well be true, but how the hell did someone on the FBI's watch list get to legally buy guns?
If the Americans are too weak to stand up to gun lobby morons, then they can expect to see more of the same...

Obviously Susie is ignorant of the real world of Islam as she supports and excuses Islam and constantly degrades American Christians as the real violent culprits in America. She is fixated on hatred of Christians in general as they had no part in the shooting violence and mass murders in America.

yep and the attacks in London, France, Belgium, Canada, Australia were all due to the gun lobby of the US. Nothing to do with Ramadam or the Koran. Oh well Susie is as much interested in facts as the gw alarmist. Her hatred certainly blinds her to any rational thought. I do wonder how the education system has dumbed down so many so quick.

Clearly not yet enough Americans have been shot, even despite the regular mass shootings, for all sorts of motives. It seems people need pain to learn and until they do something about their gun laws, more pain is what they will receive. Sad but true.

I certainly hope it will be a boost for Trump and that he gets in and implements his 'no more muslims' directive. That will mean that some good comes out of this act.

That may just influence the polys here to look at doing the same, which is needed. Western politicians have long been deaf, dumb, blind and stupid in ignoring the obvious for so long.

One wonders whether next years Mardi Gras will be mocking Mohammed rather than Christ. I doubt it.

btw nice to hear of the muslim cleric who preached death to homosexuals in America currently in Australia and given a platform at uni in Western Sydney. Well that's diversity. Save the urine throwing for those opposing 'gay' marriage.

Obviously, Josephus and Runner can't seem to recall the hundreds of years of history of persecution that American gay people have suffered at the hands of many other Americans, who were predominantly a Christian country up until quite recently.

Don't you remember the Ku klux klan boys? This lovely group were (still are?) an extremely popular little hate group headed by white peaked hats/masked all-American white Protestant good old boys, that spent it's time spreading their dirty little hate messages about homosexuals, Catholics, blacks, and Jews I believe.....maybe that's where the original Nazi's got their ideas from?

Goodness knows how many innocent people they maimed or killed over the past hundred years or so. Violent people don't belong to any one human group or religion, they are well spread out over the human race.
This particularly terrible gun murder of at least 50 innocent presumably mainly gay people was perpetrated by a violent American who follows Islam...and hates blacks, gays and Jews.

Am I expecting much outrage over these deaths from many on this site? Well, yes and no. Yes- because it was perpetrated by a Muslim, and no, because the dead were predominantly gay.
Go on, admit it....

Looks like another FBI patsy...

Suze,

Between you and Poirot, it seems as though you are trying to find any reason for the Orlando massacre other than islamic radicalism.

He was devoutly muslim, his parents were from Afghanistan and aligned to the Taliban who are known for their extremism, and he was linked to jihadis. Secondly in Orlando, in the mosques he was taught that homosexuality was a sin, and according to one Orlando Imam, they should all die, and ISIS whom he was following, regularly murder gays in horrific ways.

So to claim that this was a gay hate crime facilitated by guns is a half truth of the worst kind. This was an act of Islamic extremism against western values of tolerance.

Finally, to use the tired old "hundreds of years ago we were barbarians, so they should be allowed to be barbarians" line is pathetic. If you act like a barbarian, then you get treated as a barbarian. This weekend Sydney had a visiting Imam from the UK who is on record claiming that all homosexuals should be executed "compassionately" WTF is he doing here? Apparently only white males can be guilty of hate crimes.

The irony in all this is radical Islam, ISIS, would prefer Trump as President rather than Clinton, the Republicans in control of Congress and the NRA calling the shots. They all feed of the same carcass. Trump and Congress would enact tough anti Muslim laws under the direction of the NRA. Which in turn will boost radical Islam giving it a focus for sympathy to attract people who otherwise would be somewhat nonplus and moderate.

Here's some more irony...
You know the left are completely retarded when they advocate for both homosexuality and Islam.
They think they're all in the same left-issue camp, and we're all going to live happily ever after but the truth is the Muslims want all the homosexuals dead.

There is no happily ever after in this scenario.
The left's policies will destroy us.

I've thought long and hard about the compatibility between Islam and western cultures and as much as I truly believe in freedom and liberty for all I've come to the conclusion that Islam (and especially the Wahhabi version the Saudis are promoting) is not compatible with our way of life.

I believe Donald Trump is doing a good thing making a stand.
Freedom of religion and Islamic extremism is a issue that leaves democracy's hands tied.

To the do-gooders -
When Australian women are accosted and assaulted on Australian streets for being in breach of Sharia law, I won't blame the Muslims as much as I will blame YOU.
And when they are raped it will be YOUR fault.
It will also be YOUR fault for destroying the very fabric of our nation.

So I take my hat off to Donald Trump and his stand against Muslims and Islamic Extremism, I don't want to see one one innocent person persecuted for their right to freedom of religion but this is ultimately the lesser evil if we really weigh things up.
They laugh at our laws and courts, and have no respect for our country.

The so called peaceful Islamic religion will be dead soon anyway if good Muslims don't stand up against terrorism, and only they can make a real stand against the people who are terrorists.

This creep, Muslim, wife-beater, homosexual-hater, eptomised all of the nastiness of Islam. Yet, the usual suspects - the ones who support same-sex 'marriage' and any old perversions, but will not hear a word said against Islam, are at it again, looking for examples of non-Muslims who have the same attitudes towards queers. Well, good-luck finding a non-Muslim who has murdered 50 homosexuals for his beliefs. Good luck with your search for a non-Muslim who has murdered one homosexual.

These are the people who call others of their own kind homophobes for their genuine, legitimate, objections to homosexuality, while making excuses for Muslims who have made it clear that death is the cure for their homosexual friends. Again, good luck to these stupid people when the Muslims come looking for them because they are deemed to have done something to offend Islam.

Paul,

I think the evidence is that radical Islam grows best in soil that pampers it. The terrorist attacks in France and Belgium were launched from a suburb in Belgium where a huge tolerance and latitude was given to the muslim community.

Supposedly the peaceful muslim citizens are supposed to curb their more radical kin, but this is clearly not happening. When I hear sermons in mosques promoting tolerance towards the gay community, then I might believe that they are becoming sufficiently civilized to merge with the rest of the community.

It's pretty clear from most balanced world commentary that Donald Trump is regarded as a dangerous wingnut.

His agenda appears to create fear and loathing, while congratulating himself.

Here's how he exploited the Orlando outrage:

"“Appreciate the congrats for being right on radical Islamic terrorism.”

He then said Obama should "“immediately resign in disgrace” for failing to “mention the words radical Islam” in his remarks on the shooting"

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/donald-trumps-exploitation-of-orlando

This he tweeted with no evidence:

"Reporting that Orlando killer shouted "Allah hu Akbar!" as he slaughtered clubgoers. 2nd man arrested in LA with rifles near Gay parade"

And:

"What has happened in Orlando is just the beginning. Our leadership is weak and ineffective. I called it and asked for the ban. Must be tough"

As a comparison, let's look at just a few of Shadow Minister's efforts:

Trying to paper over it as just another attack forgets that it was an Islamic inspired terrorist attack on western values"

"Between you and Poirot, it seems as though you are trying to find any reason for the Orlando massacre other than islamic radicalism"

"So to claim that this was a gay hate crime facilitated by guns is a half truth of the worst kind. This was an act of Islamic extremism against western values of tolerance."

"Supposedly the peaceful muslim citizens are supposed to curb their more radical kin, but this is clearly not happening. When I hear sermons in mosques promoting tolerance towards the gay community, then I might believe that they are becoming sufficiently civilized to merge with the rest of the community."

Never mind that since this shooting, probably another 30-odd people have likely been slaughtered by firearms in America - over 200 a week are murdered by firearms on average.

You should run for President of the US, SM...they seem to gravitate to that sort of fear-mongering.

Suseonline, "This shooter was born in America.."

It is usual for migrants and their descendants to maintain and become more extreme in the cultural traditions of their home country. That depends on where the migrants came from and some make it very plain that they are not th sort who can be relied upon to set up a peaceful community in the country and produce wine. Or work in their market gardens.

What to do where those traditions involve organised crime, cultural hatreds and noxious religious practices? There are many examples and not just the recent rapes of 'bare meat' in Europe and here too.

Insist on taking buckets from the wrong well and do not be surprised that the water does not improve, but can get worse with the keeping of it.

Armchair Critic, "the do-gooders"

However some, maybe many, who like to pose as 'do gooders' are motivated by self-interest, they earn their daily bread from their moral BS or from employment that depends of the victim industries, in NGOs funded by government grants, for instance.

Some like to strut their 'sensitivity' to impress and up-stage other posing air-heads. The one-upmanship of 'Holier than thou".

The leftists are inflicted by a self-loathing that dictates cringing genuflection to foreign cultures.

'Do gooders'? Do badders, more likely and they can't stop themselves.

They must be suffering from cognitive dissonance, feeling obliged to always buff up Islam and in this case a multiple murderer who shot fifty patrons in a gay bar and injured many more.

Suseonline and Poirot are struggling. That is obvious.

' Never mind that since this shooting, probably another 30-odd people have likely been slaughtered by firearms in America - over 200 a week are murdered by firearms on average.'

yes of course Poirot but we can't say that a group that make up less than 15% of the population commit over 50% of those murders. Hush hush. You need to be very cunning and dishonest or completely dumbed down to join the regressives. Just keep confirming your pathetically flawed narrative.

Here you go, SM....

I'll be waiting with baited breath for you to connect this guy with Islam...after all he was on his way to a gay parade with an arsenal of weapons.

"Police in Los Angeles have detained a man who was laden with guns and explosive materials on his way to the LA Pride festival."

Officers arrested James Howell with a carload of weapons hours before the annual LGBT parade in West Hollywood on Sunday.

Authorities said there appeared to be no connection with the massacre at an LGBT nightclub in Orlando but mobilised scores of law enforcement officers to protect the parade.

Santa Monica’s police chief, Jacqueline Seabrooks, initially said that Howell had told an officer that he intended to harm people at the event.

But she later issued a correction via Twitter stating that his intention had just been to go to the event, without giving any more information about why he was heavily armed.

Police found three assault rifles, high-capacity magazines, ammunition and a five-gallon bucket with chemicals capable of forming an improvised explosive device, said police spokesman Saul Rodriguez said.

Law enforcement agencies across LA county went on tactical alert and deployed patrols and undercover officers to protect the floats and marchers who paraded through West Hollywood, the heart of LA’s gay community."

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/12/los-angeles-gay-pride-parade-man-arrested-arsenal-weapons

Sm, do yer reckon this fella is "sufficiently civilized to merge with the rest of the community"?

After all, why would we racially/religiously profile him, he's probably a nice white descendant of other nice white guys?

I'm sure it had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that firearms are so readily available to nutters in the US.

otb,

"Suseonline and Poirot are struggling. That is obvious."

Lol!...as opposed to what?

All the Donald Trump mimickers here?

Wowee!

......

runner,

Run along, there's a good boy. Your trite and brief run-by posts display your total lack of substance re debate around here....barely worth the effort to read them.

One thing is for sure, which is that the sensationalising of the murders by the tabloids and political interests will lead to copy cats.

Nothing like confirming that the very best way to go out with a bang and get millions of dollars of free national and international publicity for themselves or their idiotic complaints is to murder a heap of people.

Of course where Muslim Jihadists are concerned they don't need much encouragement.

Struggling you say? Yes, I am struggling to understand the mentality of well-haired Trump crowing his joy at the shooting death of at least 50 people, and the maiming of scores of others, in that it now 'proves' he is right in wanting to deny all people from one religious group access to migrate to America.

Never mind that he continues to support the NRA in a country where shooting others dead, with easily acquired high powered guns made to shoot huge numbers of people quickly, is considered "...a God given constitutional right'. The Americans who support such a moron as Trump deserve him.

Oh joy of joys! More deaths caused by Muslims, and even better, they are dead gays. Now he can push his hate message barrow even faster towards the White House, as his dirty comb-over spills down his back in the foul wind around him, and his guns flap against his ample thighs.

Runner....words escape me where you are concerned.

What Suse said...

Further proof that Islam is the problem, not so much Muslims.

No doubt we will continue to bury our heads in the sand and not act in the best interests of our nation as a whole.

Gun control laws in the US will not make a difference.
The Islamists would get them in via the diplomatic bag.

' Further proof that Islam is the problem, not so much Muslims.'

half true Rechtub. The other problem is the deliberately ignorant regressives whose hatred has totally blinded them from truth.

Poirot,

My point was aimed at the communities that invite hate mongering Imams to preach to them and their children. What do you think of the gay death advocate cleric Farrokh Sekaleshfar and the Sydney mosques to which he has been invited to preach? I personally believe that that prick should not be let near children, have visa revoked and be deported forthwith.

I think a yahoo that goes to a gay pride parade with guns should be separated from the community, preferably in jail, and anyone involved with him. If you can point out his pastor that advocated from the pulpit that gays should be murdered, then I would suggest that the pastor and his audience are uncivilized and should be separated from the community.

Fortunately the shooter in Orlando DID NOT have an assault rifle.

From Wiki:'\"An assault rifle is a fully automatic selective-fire rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine. Assault rifles were first used during World War II. .... Examples include the StG 44, AK-47 and the M16 rifle."

'Oh joy of joys! More deaths caused by Muslims, and even better, they are dead gays.'

No joy just sadness Susie just the same sadness as millions of unborn who are slaughtered. They just have not got the voice that the 'gay'lobby have.

Runner, your false sadness makes me want to puke....no one believes it.
And stop trying to change the subject.

All the usual gun-loving Cowboys (we will call them Trumpettes) on this site are still trying to blame anyone or anything other than the slack gun laws for repeated mass murders in a country still living way back in the Wild West past.

Why does any individual need to have a legally acquired gun that can kill or maim over 100 people in a short time?
Isn't that sort of gun a bit of overkill for people that demand to be 'armed' just in case a gay/black/Muslim/immigrant charges into their homes to kill them?

Personally, I think that some men must need BIG important scary manly type guns in order to feel like 'real men' and to make up for other small 'equipment' they may have....

"Personally, I think that some men must need BIG important scary manly type guns in order to feel like 'real men' and to make up for other small 'equipment' they may have...."

That just tells us how bitter you are.

Bitter about what Phanto? About guns? Possibly.
I am happily married to a wonderful man.
How about you?

Suseonline:

You cannot be bitter about guns only about people. You are bitter because you cannot win the argument about guns so you resort to trying to put men down - those men who you cannot control by the strength of your arguments. That is bitterness.

What has your marriage got to do with anything? Are you trying to tell us that because you are happily married that you cannot possibly be bitter? Is everyone who is not married bitter? Do you need a man to make you less bitter? Then you are not only bitter but very insecure.

phanto,

"You cannot be bitter about guns only about people. You are bitter because you cannot win the argument about guns so you resort to trying to put men down - those men who you cannot control by the strength of your arguments. That is bitterness."

It's common sense - not bitterness.

These types of fellas are fearful midgets. That's not to say all men are fearful midgets. As it stands, society needs the physiologically stable men who aren't doubtful of their masculinity to protect us from those men who are.

It's precisely the same script for those men who go screaming around the streets in their highly powered cars.

How many women do that?

Er....just about none.

So, phanto, your theory fails again.

Why should any civil society put up with an arsenal groaning with rapid-fire weapons in the hands of frightened little men looking to highlight their missing sense of masculinity.

Btw, several days on from the outrage, there are probably now more than 100 additional murders from firearms in the US.

Suseonline and Poirot have re-written all that is known from criminology and psychology and those dual Degrees are totally wasted.

Hey, who needs tiresome facts, when their lack of self-awareness beats science any day.

Nothing to see there.

BTT

Poirot:

So the best way to tackle the problem is to ridicule them by inferring they have small genitalia or that they are ‘fearful midgets’? That will surely solve the problem.

Had you been in that bar that night you would have walked up to the gunman and tried to reason with him and counsel him about it being ok to be small. At that moment he is as big as the gun he is holding.

Does every man who is small go out and buy a cache of guns just because he is insecure about his smallness? Why not? Your argument says that these people do what they do because of their smallness. If it is not universal then there must be other factors that are at play in their motivation. In this case factors such as homophobia or radical Islamism cannot be completely ruled out can they?

Perhaps America just needs to refine its gun laws and men must pass a test for ‘size’ before they can buy. According to you argument that would solve the problem. America could keep their guns, there would be no small men with guns and everyone would be safe again.

“How many women do that?”

So is it about all men or just those men lacking in size? What has gender got to do with it?

“So, phanto, your theory fails again.”

What theory have I previously expressed that is repeated here and fails for at least a second time? Why would you need to tell me that it has failed again? Is that some kind of triumphalism on your part?

Just as a point of interest the night club in Orlando where this latest massacre took place was a 'GUN FREE ZONE'.

Unfortunately only one of the patrons took no notice.

Yet another 'GUN FREE ZONE' mass murder; must be about time to get rid of such ideas that advertize that those present have voluntarily given up their rights under the US Constitution.

Is Mise,

"Just as a point of interest the night club in Orlando where this latest massacre took place was a 'GUN FREE ZONE'.

Unfortunately only one of the patrons took no notice."

Well, if it wasn't such a serious subject, I'd be inclined to guffaw!

What is the use of a "GUN FREE ZONE" in a country bristling with firearms?

Never mind, the guns - let's put up a sign!

Are you seriously trying to tell me that a "GUN FREE ZONE" sign should be enough to stop a nutter in his tracks?

The US has more guns than people - and it has a population of around 330 million.

When the "US Constitution" was written, modern firepower wasn't even dreamed of.

phanto,

I was taking up the argument on masculinity - and the curious incidence of "some" men having to bolster theirs by buying grunty cars and driving like maniacs - and others having to build an arsenal of weapons because they're so insecure.

I don't really give a toss how big their penis is.

Poirot:

Suseonline referred to their 'equipment'. More specifically you referred to 'fearful midgets'. There can be fearful giants too can't there? So is their physical size relevant to your argument?

Now you are talking about 'masculinity'. How do we determine whether a man has the right amount of masculinity to buy a gun? Is their some kind of test? You are not arguing against anyone having a gun but only those who do not have the required masculinity. What is the point of offering a solution to the problem which can never be implemented because we cannot test for the required conditions?

Maybe you are not really looking for solutions but just another opportunity to point out failings that some men have which no woman has. Why should the genders have the same failings?

From the news, it appears that the Orlando Islamic killer is likely a closet queen.

Maybe trying to adhere to the Islamic faith while being taught that homosexuals should die was too much?

Apparently tolerance is too much to ask for!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

So it's all down to gay-hating Muslims?

No doubt there are also a lot of evangelical Christians quietly celebrating the violent deaths of "hellbound sodomites" too.

For every crazed Imam there are many equivalent "God Hates Fags" preachers making the same public noises plus a few fanatics bombing abortion clinics.

The views of Pastor James Manning on the gay-inducing Starbucks lattes would be funny but for the fact that he has many followers.

"Haters gotta hate" and while no single religion is immune, all provide an excuse for personal prejudices.

Phano,
re - "migets"...... my reference wasn't to their lack of physical stature - it was to their lack of character and a solid sense of their masculinity.

As in, why do they feel the need to bolster themselves in such a way.

I'm sure women have their own failings....but they don't appear to include screaming around in high-powered cars - or carrying out mass shootings with monotonous regularity.

rache:

Did he carry out this attack because he was a gay-hater or because he was Muslim? Was he a gay-hater who just happened to be Muslim or was he a Muslim and all Muslims by definition hate gays?

If he was a gay-hater then it does not really matter that he was religious. Gay people are claiming he was a gay hater. You only need one motive to massacre people. Why are you bringing up the issue that some religions also seem to hate gays? There are many people who are not religious that are equally capable of such a massacre. He did not kill because he was religious but because he was a gay hater. Where that hate comes from is irrelevant. He killed because he hates gays but tomorrow someone else who is not religious could do exactly the same thing. The common factor is their hatred for gays not their religion or lack of it. It is irrelevant that this guy was religious. 50 people would have died either way.

If you have a problem with religious people hating gays then you should raise it when it is relevant. An event like this is not an opportunity to raise unrelated resentment.

It is also irrelevant whether or not this is a terrorist attack. He deliberately targeted gays and the authorities should not be trying to shift the attention from that fact. If someone else who has no religion does the same thing tomorrow will it be considered a terrorist attack? Those who are making it about terrorism are doing so to shore up their stand for tougher laws to stop extremists. Terrorists do not usually deliberately target aspects of western society but that society as a whole.

Nor is it all about guns. He could have gone into that club with explosives strapped to his chest and done just as much damage.

Here's a selection of runner's post on this thread,

"Oh yeah the gun laws, nothing to do with Islam. The pigheaded denial and ignorance shows why the West is stuffed"

"Islam and secularist are cousins. Islam kills the infidel while secularist murder the unborn."

"...Nothing to do with the Koran giving Muslim men that right is it?..."

"yep and the attacks in London, France, Belgium, Canada, Australia were all due to the gun lobby of the US. Nothing to do with Ramadam or the Koran..."

"One wonders whether next years Mardi Gras will be mocking Mohammed rather than Christ. I doubt it.

btw nice to hear of the muslim cleric who preached death to homosexuals in America currently in Australia and given a platform at uni in Western Sydney....."

"Further proof that Islam is the problem, not so much Muslims.'

half true Rechtub"

Here we go, runner...something to complement your run-by venom spits.

"Following the deadliest shooting in U.S. history, a Baptist preacher stood at his pulpit Sunday night in Northern California and delivered an impassioned sermon praising the brutal massacre at a gay nightclub in Florida.

Pastor Roger Jimenez from Verity Baptist Church in Sacramento told his congregation that Christians “shouldn’t be mourning the death of 50 sodomites.”

"He added: “The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die. The tragedy is — I’m kind of upset that he didn’t finish the job!”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06/14/pastor-refuses-to-mourn-orlando-victims-the-tragedy-is-that-more-of-them-didnt-die/?tid=ss_tw-bottom

There's a nice Christian pastor...shall we now denounce all Christians?

Poirot:

“As in, why do they feel the need to bolster themselves in such a way.”

Women don’t need to bolster themselves then? Just because they do not drive around in high-powered cars and do not shoot people does not mean that their egos are perfectly formed and under control. Women do not do any damage to society? The Orlando shooter had a mother didn’t he? She is in no way responsible for how he turned out?

Gee Phanto, did we hit a nerve there with you?
Do you carry a gun then?
And yes, I too think all men who feel the need to carry high-powered guns 'just in case' they might come across someone else with one are mental midgets....

And if the rumors are true and this Orlando killer was gay, then all the anti-gay rubbish thrown at these guys by the mindless homophobic sand religious fundies of the world can hang their heads in shame. If gay people were just left alone to live their lives and love who they want, then there wouldn't be so much angst amongst that community.

'Here we go, runner...something to complement your run-by venom spits.'

actually Poirot a lot more in line with your secular dogma. I take no delight in anyone's death. The emily's listers are as vile as this so called pastor you quote. Then again it seems you have no moral base to make any judgements as it seems all you can do is spit venom.

Suseonline:

“Gee Phanto, did we hit a nerve there with you?”

What nerve was that? I asked why you felt the need to belittle men by talking about their ‘equipment’ and you have now changed the subject to make it about guns. I wasn’t making any point about guns but about your need to belittle people when your arguments fail. So you try and focus the attention onto something else.

“And yes, I too think all men who feel the need to carry high-powered guns 'just in case' they might come across someone else with one are mental midgets....”

So what did you mean by the word ‘equipment’? You not only try to deflect attention away from your aggression but you also are a liar.

Who cares that you think these men are mental midgets – how does that contribute to a solution to the problem or are you really only interested in bitchiness?

Oh that's right Phanto, I momentarily forgot that I don't feed trolls on this site, so I don't think there is anything else I can nicely submit for a continuing conversation with you.

Poirot, thanks for the link to 'The Washington Post', what can one say about this bigoted disgusting hatemunger Roger Jimenez, he is no better than the crazed gunman himself What sort of sick individual would say; “The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die. The tragedy is — I’m kind of upset that he didn’t finish the job!” Calls himself a Christian!

Hillary Clinton spoke a lot of sense, the unfortunate thing is, the situation with terrorism is going to get worse before it gets better. We in the West need to realize that our past foreign policies towards the third world have failed, our actions in the Middle East have failed to bring about any sort of peace in the region. If the Americans elect Trump, it can only lead to more division in society, with more violence, and more bloodshed.

phanto,

I raised the religious aspect because the title of this thread is about Islamic terror and Trump.

While religion doesn't necessarily provide a reason for hate for the average person it certainly provides an excuse.

If it's not a dislike for gays it's an aversion for one specific religion and that's all these posts seem to demonstrate.

The Trump aspect shows that he is all too willing to use the blood of the innocent to further his own political ambitions, just as many use it to justify their own personal prejudices.

I usually stay away from making hasty discussions about terror events because of the many red flags and questionable events surrounding them.
The Orlando shooting is no different, there's red flags everywhere.

Here's just some of them I've heard.

1 The event was staged. (false flag)
2 The FBI allowed the event to occur. (false flag)
3 Many of the victims were shot by police.
4 No images of the victims being taken away from the scene.
5 Omar Mateen was gay and frequented the Pulse nightclub
6 Omar Mateen was working with FBI
7 Omar changed his name.
8 Omar passed all registered gun checks, he even worked within government.
9 Omar's father was in the Mujahadeen.
10 The event was staged to draw attention away from DT's speech on the Clintons.
11 Hillary Clinton stopped an investigation into Omar's Mosque
12 Supposed victims stopped 'acting' like they were injured and started laughing when they thought camera was not filming.

These are just a few of the many points I've heard in the last 2 days.
The ones I can remember.

I hate to see you guys go around in circles and not even get close to the many issues being discussed elsewhere.

Try these...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLZncTbFLJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEd492oBuzQ

Paul, Poirot, Suz,

That you can find a couple of virulently anti gay pastors (both from minorities) in the US out of 300 000 odd active congregations shows how extremely rare it is. Perhaps could search for a couple of Imams that think that homosexuality should be legal, given that in the UK muslim congregations only 18% think that homosexuality should be legal?

SM,

"That you can find a couple of virulently anti gay pastors (both from minorities) in the US out of 300 000 odd active congregations shows how extremely rare it is..."

Oh really.

Here is the Republicans one time alternative presidential candidate and his "friends"

"On Friday, three Republican presidential candidates — Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal, Texas Sen. Ted Cruz and former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee — attended an event in Des Moines, Iowa, hosted by a controversial Colorado pastor who has frequently advocated against gay people, including that the government should put them to death.

The event, dubbed the National Religious Liberties Conference, was hosted by pastor Kevin Swanson, who delivered a fiery speech in which he said Biblical law calls for "homosexuals" to be executed.

"Yes, Leviticus 20:13 calls for the death penalty for homosexuals," he said. Swanson said he was "willing to go to jail for standing on the truth of the word of God."

"Swanson then invited Jindal, Cruz and Huckabee on stage for a Q&A session with the 2016 presidential candidates."

http://www.yahoo.com/news/republican-candidates-attend-rally-where-014821801.html?ref=gs

When you've got people in such an influential position chumming up with religious freaks from the dominant religion who advocate death for gays - I think you're in a country with a problem.

SM, you must surely be joking if you think the US is not an anti-gay country as a whole.
With such a dominant Christian majority in their population, it is surely almost mandatory to hold anti-gay views?

Paulines right of course.

Islam is a danger to our society and not compatible in any way, so let us stop importing muslims. We stop importation of dangerous dogs and other animals, we stop importation of other dangerous items such as toys that could harm.

Its about time we stopped pussy footing around and got to the heart of the issue. Less muslims here the less danger of terrorist attacks. Has any one heard of a muslim terrorist attack in Japan. They have very tight immigration laws. No one hates them for that.

If muslims want to kill homosexuals, infidels and apostates, they should not get sanctuary here.

Banjo,

Pauline Hanson is a bigot who will chop and change her targets for demonisation to whichever is more helpful for electoral advantage.

Let's have a look at her targets when she first appeared in 1996, shall we...

"Yet in Hanson’s 1996 maiden speech – the presentation that propelled her to fame – she never once mentioned Sharia. She said nothing about Muslims; Islam wasn’t on her radar at all.

Back in those days, Hanson had other fish to fry. “I believe we are in danger of being swamped by Asians,” she told the parliament.

In that speech, she called for a review of immigration policies – but not to keep Muslims out. She wanted a quite different group to “go back where they came from”.

“Between 1985 and 1995, 40% of all migrants coming into this country were of Asian origin,” she said. “They have their own culture and religion, form ghettos and do not assimilate.”

In those days, One Nation’s official policy on immigration decried “the Asianisation of Australia”, rhetoric that in 2014 has almost entirely vanished, even from the far rightwing of politics."

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/23/jacqui-lambies-islam-slur-the-rhetoric-changes-but-the-bigots-stay-the-same?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

She's nothing but an air-headed opportunist who descends upon the airwaves every election in order to get enough votes to be paid a certain amount by the electoral commission.

Suseonline:

"SM, you must surely be joking if you think the US is not an anti-gay country as a whole.
With such a dominant Christian majority in their population, it is surely almost mandatory to hold anti-gay views?"

How then did same-sex marriage ever get legalised or anti-discrimination laws regarding sexuality? Seems that the politicians are not doing what their voters want.

Remember not to reply to me.

Poirot,

The Gun Free Zones are an invitation to nutters as they indicate that there is very little chance of any meaningful resistance or danger.

One of the survivors told of hearing the empty cartridge cases hitting the floor as the murderer fired, then a pause as he changed magazines; anyone who was armed could have taken the gunman out at that stage.
As at the Lyndt cafe one armed person could have made a big difference.

The US has numerous Gun Free Zones, Australia has one.

The left are the only ones capable of seeing men claiming to be muslim, shooting and beheading men, women and children, quoting the Koran and then saying its got nothing to do with Islam. How how they managed to dumb down people to such an extent whether in Canada, Australia, Britian, France, Canada, Holland. And can you believe they call themselves rational. Swallowing a dumbed down narrative for political points is the best they can do. No wonder so many turn to a maverik like Trump.

Poirot,

So you have found a third US pastor that is anti gay, have you found a US Imam that supports gays? I thought not.

SM,

But he's a pal of the Republican's favourite nominee - that doesn't bother you?

I realise that Trump has trumped him, but this is how it is for the religious right in the US - and they are powerful enough to take it into the top job.

Here's a Cruz campaign ad.

It's quite short - and I really hope you watch it. It sums up pretty much to top of the Republican pile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG9V_ePjcX0

Just as Julia Gillard was a great pal of Alan Jones because she appeared with him. By extension she must slavishly follow his views.

I have spent a fair amount of time in the US, and I certainly didn't notice rampant anti gays sympathies. Notably gay marriage has been legislated in many states based on public opinion.

I am happy for the regressives to call me anti gay just because I don't support the lifestyle of those hanging around 'gay' bars. I suspect that most repsonsible parents would not want there kids hanging around there either. In the same way I would not want my kids hanging around many of the bars where people not practicing homosexuality hang out. The reality is that their are far more Christophobes on this planet today than homophobes. There one aim seems to be to demonise anyone that points out simple facts. Facts like the ideal environment for a child is for them to have a loving dad and mum. Pretty well main stream commonsense a few years ago. Now despised by Christophobes.

Runner,

It's not so much the actual man, Jesus Christ, that people are likely to have a "phobia" about - more likely his self-proclaimed Christian representatives who spout vile rants on behalf of the movement that evolved after Christ's death.

People like yourself, runner, who take every opportunity to spit venom and accuse people of "hatred" just because they disagree with you and your beliefs.

People like you,runner, who ponce around claiming "fact" when you are "in fact" describing "belief" and "faith".

People like you, runner, who represent the antithesis of what Christ was on about.

So, as far as this forum is concerned, it's more likely you'll meet a "runnerophobe" than a "Christophobe".

SM,

That comparison was disingenuous. Didn't Jones suggest she should be tied up in a chaff bag and thrown in the sea?

Let's cut to the chase.

Do you not believe that people who represent the modern version of the Republican Party court this kind of rabid fundamentalist Christianity?

You know they do - so why play games and deny it.

Even the illustrious Abbott who attempted to pull us rabid right, addressed a US fundy Christian organization after he got the boot.

It's what they do - they know there's some voter support in dancing to the far-right Christian tune.

Poirot,

I simply pointing out the absurdity of your "guilt" by association proposition, and am trying to nip your conspiracy theories in the bud.

Yes the republicans have a strong Christian base, but also the vast majority of christians would not tolerate the anti gay behaviour demonstrated by your examples, and any Republican "courting" these individuals would suffer a shortened career.

On the flip side, the vast majority of Muslims would see homosexuality criminalised, if not become a capital offense. I guess that you have been scouring the internet to find a gay friendly imam, but I doubt you will.

runnerphobia

I like that Poirot although I am not vain enough to think I had that much power. And the excuse for your vile rants against many others that hold a contrary view to you? Oh that's right you use nasty sarcism usually after you have lost an arguement which is common for those with irrational regressive dogma. You obviously have no mirror.

Well SM, it seems at least one equally mad religious group in the US is keen on spreading their message of hate:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-16/funerals-for-orlando-victims-begin-in-the-face-of/7516826

"Almost four days after the attack on the gay nightclub Pulse in Orlando the first funeral for a victim has taken place. As the investigation into the shooting continues, authorities have released a total of 35 bodies of the 49 dead to their families. Anti-gay hate group the Westboro Baptist Church is in Orlando and has threatened to protest the memorial services, prompting volunteers to turn out to form protective walls around funeral venues."

How sick is that?
Gate crashing gay people's funerals just so they can spread their message of hate to all the mourners.
Pathetic...

Suze,

So you have found a 4th tiny anti gay congregation out of > 300 000. These are the exceptions that prove the rule.

Still no luck finding a muslim congregation that is pro gay rights?

Thought not.

SM,

Not content with mimicking Trump on this thread, you're now doing the soft-shoe shuffle to prove - what?

Here's the group that far-right Abbott addressed in the US a while back.

"The Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative religious group that Tony Abbott is to address in the United States this week, has become prominent in the religious right movement for its work seeking to criminalise sodomy internationally and roll back anti-discrimination laws in America."

http://www.smh.com.au/world/inside-the-alliance-defending-freedom-the-gayhate-group-hosting-tony-abbott-20160125-gmdu9o.html#ixzz4BmTNiuoW

"An article by the Southern Poverty Law Centre, which tracks hate groups in America, says that since it was founded by 30 religious leaders in 1994 the ADF has grown to an organisation with an annual budget of $US30 million ($43 million) with 44 in-house staff and a network of 2200 allied lawyers who work to further their Christian ideology through the law.

"Their work is fanning the flames of anti-gay hatred that already exists in many of the countries where they are injecting themselves. As in Uganda, American groups have been propagandising about the 'recruitment' of young schoolchildren, the allegedly depraved and diseased lives of LGBT people, the paedophilia that is supposedly common among gay men, and the destruction of Christianity and the institution of marriage that they seem certain ending anti-LGBT laws will lead to," writes the Southern Poverty Law Centre.

"This vicious propaganda, born and bred by American ideologues, has found fertile soil across the globe."

Much of the ADF's money is raised anonymously, though some of the wealthiest names associated with the Republican Party..."

SM,

More on the ADF...

"Not the ‘Illuminati’: How Fundamentalist Christians Are Infiltrating State and Federal Government"

"Imagine that a little-known but increasingly powerful group of ideologues had hatched a plan to transform the United States into a Christian theocracy harkening back to the Dark Ages of Europe, a time when society was governed by the laws and officials of the Catholic Church."

"Suppose further that this plan had a scary simple strategy: Recruit bright, young law students; put them through an intensive indoctrination program; place them in plum internships across the country; and watch as they swim upstream until they reach the top of the legal system, where they can create, enforce, and interpret laws according to a legal philosophy infused with fundamentalist Christian theology."

"While participants hail from various denominations, they all commit to using their legal careers to “reorder society” according to a “christendomic” worldview, in which there is no separation between church and state."

http://rewire.news/article/2014/05/13/illuminati-fundamentalist-christians-infiltrating-state-federal-government/

"The Alliance Defending Freedom wants to take America back to the 3rd century. Literally. On the website for its legal fellowship program, the organization explains that it “seeks to recover the robust Christendomic theology of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th centuries.”

“This is catholic, universal orthodoxy and it is desperately crucial for cultural renewal,”

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/05/01/3429448/alliance-defending-freedom/

Denying the far-right has this kind of influence in America is either naive or deliberately misleading.

The murder of the British Labor MP, Jo Cox, throws up some questions about the hard right too.

"The man arrested over the killing of Labour MP Jo Cox is believed to have had long-term links with a hard-right group based in London which had been campaigning for many years for Britain to leave the European Union.

Thomas Mair was named as a supporter in an online publication of the Springbok Club, an organisation which has defended the white supremacist apartheid regime in South Africa."

Witnesses to the fatal attack on Ms Cox say they heard Mair shout “Britain First” as the MP was shot and then stabbed. The organisation Britain First, which was founded by former members of the British National Party, has denied that Mair was associated with it and say they condemn the killing."

The leading article for June 2016 Springbok Cyber Newsletter, which describes itself on its website as being pro-free market capitalism and patriotism and anti-political correctness, was, however, devoted to Britain and the referendum. It started: “On Thursday, 23rd June 2016 all British voters will have the opportunity to vote on the future of their country. They can vote either to remain entrapped in the artificial and retrograde European Union, or to regain their sovereign independence....”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/jo-cox-dead-thomas-mair-suspect-south-africa-apartheid-a7086426.html

Notwithstanding that if a man is going to go nuts and kill a prominent MP, one cringes at the carnage he could have inflicted on bystanders if he'd had access to the types of weaponry easily accessed in the US.

I think, SM, that if you're serious about analysing groups and individuals attacking "western values" - you should give equal billing to the ferocious far-right in your travels.

And Turnbull hosted a dinner with a Imam that claimed that homosexuals caused disease. Using your logic, he must be rabidly anti gay, and that label would then apply to anyone that addresses a muslim congregation. Your pathetic guilt by association would make everyone either anti gay or Islamaphobic.

Comparing my to Trump is laughable given that I have personally hired and brought in a muslim engineer on a 457 and enabled permanent residence for him and his family. I have no problem with the majority of muslims, but I completely support the concept that they be held accountable for their actions.

Bringing in Imams that preach hatred is not OK and those that do should be deported or banned from addressing congregations, irrespective of the greens claiming that this is offensive.

I also believe that gay marriage should be legalized, and that sales of guns should be heavily restricted.

I've decided that I don't support equality for or non-discrimination of gays and I'll explain why.

"It's the question of what exactly does 'equality' mean?"

If gays think equality means "The right to sexualise and indoctrinate young Australian children on the basis of some perceived discrimination then I most certainly oppose that.

I'm on the side of protecting children not corrupting them.

For a straight person equality means "You have the right to be gay, I have the right to not be gay"

For a gay person equality means "The right to be gay free from discrimination"

So gay's idea of equality includes sexualising and indoctrinating other peoples kids with a gay ideology in the hope that there will be less discrimination.

But these are kids.
Kids will bully or make fun of each other over new shoes.

I'm not going to support the gay equality idea if that means indoctrinating children with a gay sexual ideology, and if forced to choose, I choose discrimination of gays over indoctrination of children with this gay ideology.

Until they find the right message that doesn't include overstepping their boundaries I'm not supporting their idea of equality.

//These are the exceptions that prove the rule.//

"Exception, n. A thing which takes the liberty to differ from other things of its class, as an honest man, a truthful woman, etc. "The exception proves the rule" is an expression constantly upon the lips of the ignorant, who parrot it from one another with never a thought of its absurdity. In the Latin, "Exceptio probat regulam" means that the exception tests the rule, puts it to the proof, not confirms it."
- Ambrose Bierce, 'The Devil's Dictionary'

The only rule that Suse has managed to confirm is that belonging to the Christian faith is no guarantee of common decency. Which we already knew if we've been paying attention to a recent royal commission. Mind you, the same can be said of any faith or the absence of faith.

//Still no luck finding a muslim congregation that is pro gay rights?//

I dunno about specific congregations, but there are definitely queer-friendly Muslims:

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2016/06/13/481853353/what-queer-muslims-are-saying-about-the-orlando-shooting

That rainbow flag burqa may be the strangest thing I have ever seen.

//If gays think equality means "The right to sexualise and indoctrinate young Australian children on the basis of some perceived discrimination then I most certainly oppose that.//

Don't worry, Armchair Critic. They don't.

Your second guess was the correct one:

//For a gay person equality means "The right to be gay free from discrimination"//

That is what equality means: being treated the same as everybody else. So, if you should be free to be straight free from discrimination, then other people should be free to be gay free from discrimination. If that isn't the case then you have an inequality. Another example of an inequality is if somebody was happy to slander gay people in favour of equality as pedophiles, but they would never consider applying that slur to straight people in favour of equality.

//So gay's idea of equality includes sexualising and indoctrinating other peoples kids with a gay ideology in the hope that there will be less discrimination.//

Non sequitur.

//Kids will bully or make fun of each other over new shoes.//

Only if they're jerks. The idea of raising children is to train them not to be jerks. If you dismiss bullying as just 'kids will be kids' you're a bad parent and a bad person.

//I'm not going to support the gay equality idea if that means indoctrinating children with a gay sexual ideology//

It doesn't. You can't teach people to be gay or straight any more than you can teach them have blue or brown eyes. 'Conversion therapy' and related notions are a myth invented by the religious right which you have swallowed hook, line and sinker because, as has already been established, you are the most gullible man in all of space and time.

//I choose discrimination of gays//

Then you're a jerk. Your parents failed. But it's your right to be a jerk so you don't need to justify yourself to us; you could have saved yourself a lot of typing by succinctly expressing your views as 'I hate queers'.

SM,

I'm not comparing you to Trump per se.

You display far more decorum than he - and don't appear to suffer from rampant narcissism as does he.

However, for the purposes of this thread, there's little difference in intent between your posts and Trump's tweets, which appear to be demonise all Muslims in the wake of the shooting.

You totally dismiss the liklihood that Mateen was considerably unbalanced when he committed the atrocity - even though you posted info that there's evidence that he was gay. That didn't even cause a blip on your continued targeting of Muslims as the clear and present danger in societies where they are hugely in the minority.

"And Turnbull hosted a dinner with a Imam that claimed that homosexuals caused disease. Using your logic, he must be rabidly anti gay.."

That was supposedly a stuff up - something which occurs when one hastily confects a stunt.

"Industry minister Christopher Pyne told the Nine Network that mistakes were made in the invitations process, which included Sheik Shady Al-Suleiman."

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2016/06/17/07/34/anti-gay-muslim-preacher-invited-to-turnbulls-ramadan-dinner

However, Mal wasn't backward in coming forward to host a soiree by that other far-right gay hate preacher, Cori Bernardi:

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2016/election-2016-malcolm-turnbull-captured-headlining-fundraiser-at-cory-bernardis-conservative-foundation-20160602-gpaekk.html

"I also believe that gay marriage should be legalized, and that sales of guns should be heavily restricted."

Nice to hear....perhaps you should be more proactive on OLO in that regard instead of attempting to turn threads into anti-Muslim rants.

Poirot,

While I would consider myself economically conservative, I also consider myself reasonably liberal, with the exception that I believe that people should be held responsible for their actions.

The rabid far left feels that it is politically correct to excuse the intolerance and barbarity of non european peoples based on inequalities and "oppression", a view with which I strongly disagree.

In particular there is a disturbing myopia towards muslims. Now it is no doubt that the vast majority of terrorist acts worldwide are committed by muslims for religious reasons mostly against other muslim sects. This atrocity, the stabbings in Paris, the Egypt air bombing, and the Istanbul bombing are the most recent.

The teachings in mosques world wide are not all extremist, but there are virtually zero libertarian muslim congregations either, and while I don't advocate expulsions or blockades, I do feel that a firm message needs to go out to all in society that anti societal behaviour and teachings are unacceptable

Armchair Critic:

There is hardly any discrimination against gays in Australia. Even if there was we have anti-discrimination courts to deal with it. Whatever other discrimination slips through the cracks is generally about trivial issues. Not all issues of discrimination are of equal importance.

There are, however, lots of things about the rest of society which they dislike and these are often called ‘discrimination’ in order to try and manipulate society into changing out of some kind of ‘guilt’ rather than reason.

They do not like being ridiculed or derided. They do not like criticism. They do not like having their sexuality ignored. They do not like other groups protesting about their sexuality. They do not like people who do not accept their own analysis of their behaviour.

They want so many things that the rest of us do not deem important or we go about getting what we want by reasonable means.

Wanting to spread your own opinions to children is reasonable. If they want to do this then they are welcome to try. We should not let them describe opposition to their views as discrimination. It is just an opposing view. Calling it discrimination makes you seem like the bad guy but there is nothing bad about challenging opinions you disagree with.

Shadow, very good post I totally agree.

"I also consider myself reasonably liberal, with the exception that I believe that people should be held responsible for their actions."
Absolutely, there is no denying Mateen is responsible for the murder of 49 innocent people.
The danger is we simply treat this and other radical hate crimes in isolation, as if they happen in a vacuum. People like Trump try to offer simplistic answers to what are complex problem, radicalism is such a problem, which is very difficult to deal with. Looking at cause and effect, and then taking a holistic approach to solving these huge world problems that we face, is the only answer.

Australian Imams line up to call for the death penalty for homosexuality:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/imams-line-up-to-condemn-homosexuality/news-story/b1df7829507ae0a60875a5577bd21a43

"Gay and lesbian people should be put to death or otherwise punished under sharia, according to two imams who share leadership positions with Shady Alsuleiman, the controversial sheik invited to a Ramadan dinner at Kirribilli House by Malcolm Turnbull.

The Australian National Imams Council, of which Sheik ­Alsuleiman is president, has at least three executive members who believe the only punishment for homosexuality is the death penalty, according to Islamic law.

Imam Yusuf Peer, the chairman of the Council of Imams Queensland, who is a member of the national peak body, told The Weekend Australian yesterday that it was “not permissible” to be gay and Muslim.

“But we do not have a problem with the people themselves, just the act and ideology,” Imam Peer said. “But this is what the sharia law says and we have to follow that. There is no way around that. When we are talking about gays, we have to be confident (they are gay) and there must be a lot of ­investigating.”

When asked if sharia ­required death, Imam Peer said: “Yes.”

Thanks for that, SM.

So they're "lining up" are they?

The Murdoch stable is never backward in coming forward to foment discord where it can.

And Shadow Minister is forever billowing in their wake.

Especially when he's started a thread for the same explicit purpose.

Intolerance, is the problem with most religions, Islam is no exception. The notion that their mythical being, the one they call Allah, is the controlling force behind man, and everything he does. These religious adherents believe that their divine being has bestowed upon them some kind of moral exclusivity where they should, and can, dictate to all what is acceptable behavior and what is not, homosexuality is just one example! The extremest within the Muslim religion, like in Christianity, believe they have been given some kind of authority from their god to punish those that do not conform to their moral code. Extremists believe they have been given the authority to deliver the ultimate punishment to non-adherents. The world needs to see the dangers of religious extremism for what it is.

While we're posting articles on religious outliers, here's a Christian version:

"Tony McCorkell reveals secrets of the wealthy Christian sect Exclusive Brethren"

"Known for its obsession with privacy and its silencing tactics, the Exclusive Brethren has managed to avoid any scrutiny over alleged child sex abuse. Until now"

"Then, in 2006, to the dismay of much of his family, McCorkell went back. The Brethren had come to public notoriety after it spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to influence the 2004 election in favour of conservative Christian PM John Howard. McCorkell, by then a public relations professional, was intrigued, and a little horrified. The virtually unknown sect that had dominated his own family's life was now on the national stage, as Brethren members campaigned on the streets in Hobart against the gay-friendly Greens, and threatened journalists outside churches.

"I told Bruce Hales in a letter that I thought this behaviour was dragging the name of Christianity through the mud, and I suggested some strategies to assist," says McCorkell."

http://www.smh.com.au/good-weekend/tony-mccorkell-reveals-secrets-of-the-wealthy-christian-sect-exclusive-brethren-20160429-goi6lc.html#ixzz4Bsdoeg4

Poirot,

It must be so painful when your politically correct ideals clash so badly with reality.

I don't know why you keep bringing up these fringe cults, we all know that in even the most enlightened society that there are fringe dwellers, and pointing out these kooks contradicts nothing that I have been saying.

The vast majority of western society accepts a person irrespective of sexual predilections. No muslim country does, and the vast majority of muslims born and raised in western countries do not.

In the words of a Sydney based Imam, you cannot be gay and muslim. No wonder the shooter went nuts.

SM,

There have been 998 mass shootings in the US since Sandy Hook.

3 of them involved Muslims.

998 of them involved males with guns.

Ergo....

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/toxic-masculinity-was-just-as-much-to-blame-for-the-orlando-shootings-as-radical-islam-a7083071.html

Here's yer problem...

"US car dealer offers free AR-15 assault rifle with every car"

"A New Hampshire car dealer is offering everyone who buys a car a free AR-15 assault rifle, a type of weapon similar to the one used in the Orlando LGBT nightclub massacre.

Mike Hagan owns Hagan’s Motor Pool Auto Repair and Sales in Rochester. He says he’s given away four AR-15s and one 9mm handgun, an option for buyers who don’t want the rifle.

Hagan told NH1-TV that he has partnered with a nearby gun store, which runs the required background checks.

Hagan is a combat veteran who served in Afghanistan. He says the possibility the weapons he’s giving away could be used to kill civilians doesn’t weigh on him.

He hasn’t returned calls seeking information on whether the promotion began before or after Orlando gunman Omar Mateen attacked the Pulse nightclub on Sunday, leaving 49 people dead.

AR-15 style rifles were used by the shooters in the San Bernardino terror attack in December, as well as in the 2012 attacks at a movie theater in Aurora, Colorado, and an elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut.

Critics call AR-15-style rifles the weapon of choice for terrorists and mass murderers; such guns were targeted by the 1994 federal ban on “assault weapons”, which some Democrats tried and failed to renew in 2013."

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/17/new-hampshire-car-dealer-free-ar15-assault-rifle

Yep Poirot continues to desperately try to demonise Christianity because she knows her form of secularism is as vile as extreme Islam.

Poirot,

As an apologist for Islam and purveyor of radical feminist factoids (while claiming not to be a feminist), you are shameless with your win at any cost BS.

For the many who care facts,

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/opinion/how-many-mass-shootings-are-there-really.html?_r=2

//So you have found a 4th tiny anti gay congregation out of > 300 000//

//The Australian National Imams Council, of which Sheik ­Alsuleiman is president, has at least three executive members who believe the only punishment for homosexuality is the death penalty//

Are you prepared to show us the figures on how many Australian muslims don't support capital punishments for homosexuality, or are you worried they might undermine your argument?

//I don't know why you keep bringing up these fringe cults, we all know that in even the most enlightened society that there are fringe dwellers, and pointing out these kooks//

I find it interesting that the existence of queer-hating Christians establishes nothing beyond the existence of queer-hating Christians, while the existence of three queer-hating Australian Muslims is apparently sufficient to extrapolate the views of all Australian Muslims from.

//The vast majority of western society accepts a person irrespective of sexual predilections... the vast majority of muslims born and raised in western countries do not.//

Three is not a vast majority of Australian Muslims, unless there are fewer than six muslims in Australia. If you want to persuade people that most Australian Muslims hate queers you're going to have come up with a few more examples, in the same way that it would take more than handful of queer-hating Christians to establish that most Christians hate queers. Show me the numbers, because an assertion like that without any figures isn't worth much.

//In the words of a Sydney based Imam, you cannot be gay and muslim. No wonder the shooter went nuts.//

I think it's unlikely that the shooter was listening to a Sydney based imam.

Lol!...orb,

Just dropped by for your daily blurt of ad hom, eh?

How about you post some evidence disproving that US gun culture is not the problem plaguing that nation with regard to mass shootings?

Same goes for far right wing nuttery - as we've seen in the slaying of Jo Cox in the UK.

The extreme right-wing and its religious apologists pose more threat to "Western values" (as SM puts it) than minority religions and races.

But one assumes you're kinda enamoured by all that guff.

Poirot,

In response to your link, "Toxic masculinity was just as much to blame for the Orlando shootings as radical Islam" and 'US gun culture being at fault for "mass"(sic) shootings', the next,

Blue Moon. 31 January, 2018 and
Partial Lunar Eclipse. 7 August, 2017 5:23–7:18 pm

Just to say that you are going off a bit early.

'Toxic masculinity' - Grievance Feminism*. What a load of bollocks, self-serving and very nasty. Reprehensible that you would try to excuse and lessen the responsibility of that disgusting, evil murderer and Islam.

*Grievance Feminism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iWa-5zWJgU

Otb,

You know I'm doing nothing of the sort.

But don't let that impede your narrative. I know how much you like to embroider your ad homs.

SM starts a thread to demonise all Muslims because one nutter takes advantage of foul US gun availability.

And you obviously reckon that's just fine and dandy.

I pose another common denominator - and you're spitting feminist chips all over the place!

A Bex and a good lie down might be in order for you, mate : )

simple put the gunman did what Mohammed would of done and Poirot tries to make out its what Jesus would also have done. The planned parenthood butchers and Mohammed are far more closely related. Poirot never allows facts to deter her warped narrative.

Poirot, "..because one nutter takes advantage of foul US gun availability"

There you go again. Reprehensible that you would try to excuse and lessen the responsibility of that disgusting, evil murderer and Islam.

For what purpose? To defend your politics and grievance feminism?

You are wasting your time. That clock is ticking and life is passing you bye...

"There you go again. Reprehensible that you would try to excuse and lessen the responsibility of that disgusting, evil murderer and Islam."

Oh there you go...deploying your fave "reprehensible" again...it's the stunt you pull every time.

So Islam is responsible for Mateen's evil?

By that assessment, far-right wing ideology (popular on OLO) is responsible for Mair's slaughter of Jo Cox?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-17/jo-cox-alleged-killer-tommy-mair-had-neo-nazi-links/7520362

Well is it?

What's that you say...?

Oh...he was a nice quiet white guy with a mental problem.

Well that's all right then.

Poirot:

"There have been 998 mass shootings in the US since Sandy Hook.

3 of them involved Muslims.

998 of them involved males with guns."

What is the point of saying this. It is not news. Everyone knows that far more men use guns than women. All you are doing is stating a fact. Do you have an argument to promote or not? Linking that fact to a report that someone thinks such shootings as this are caused by issues of masculinity does nothing either.

Presumably you too think that shootings like these are caused by some flaw in men or some flaw in masculinity.

Just because all shootings are done by men does not mean that there is a flaw in all men - it means there is a flaw in some men and like any other aberration in human behaviour you would look for common factors. The fact that they are all male tells us nothing. It just tells us their gender. We need to look for other factors that the shooters had in common if any. 'Masculinity' is also possessed by all men so that does not tell us anything.

If there are other common factors which by definition must apply to every shooter then tell us what they are.

Manufacturing common factors such as 'all men' and 'masculinity' are of no help whatsoever.

When people resort to such simplistic statements it is because they have an agenda against 'all men' and 'masculinity' and seem to enjoy taking advantage of tragedies to further their own agenda

The murder of Jo Cox is horrendous, a tragedy that affects all of us.

You would be very foolish indeed to be using her murder to support your unfounded and emotional contention that gun availability and 'gun culture' was a major contributor to murders in the US when the UK's strict 'gun control' did not protect Jo Cox.

My reply above was directed at Poirot.

phanto,

"....seem to enjoy taking advantage of tragedies to further their own agenda."

Hohoho...may I direct you to Shadow Minister and his agenda in starting this thread - not to mention his posts.

(And of course, the ever reliable Donald Trump)

Poirot:

That does not really tell me why you need to focus on the issues of men and masculinity as common factors in shootings of this type.It just sounds like you are trying to change the subject.

While ever large numbers of guns are in private hands within society, supposedly for legal purposes, we are not going to stop gun related murders. Just as Jo Cox was gunned down in Britain, by a right wing psychotic, Thomas Mair, we had the murder of environment officer Glen Turner by deranged farmer Ian Turnbull here in Australia, using a licensed firearm! The gun lobby and their supporters would have us believe our gun laws, as is the case with Britain's, are in someway "strict". The notion that our gun laws are strict enough to keep legal weapons out of the hands of murderers is a lie, perpetrated by the pro gun lobby as it seeks to have totally uncontrolled gun ownership in the hands of all and sundry, including the likes of Mair and Turnbull in supposedly strict gun controlling countries.
Obviously as they try and water down our laws, the gunnies use the US model, where gun laws of any kind are mostly nonexistent to label our laws as "strict"! The US model of unrestricted gun ownership bred the Orlando licensed mass murderer Omar Mateen, their model of gun laws gave Mateen the capability to commit his horrendous crime with legally accessible firearms. Our laws give the likes of Ian Turnbull access to legal guns to commit his crime of premeditated murder. With so many guns legally in our community, with the potential to be used to commit murder, no one should label our Australian gun laws as "strict"!

Since 1972 there have been 74 islamic religion inspired fatal attacks in the USA with a death toll of 3160.

All men, not all using guns, no other religion comes anywhere close.

otb,

"You would be very foolish indeed to be using her murder to support your unfounded and emotional contention that gun availability and 'gun culture' was a major contributor to murders in the US when the UK's strict 'gun control' did not protect Jo Cox."

I cited Jo Cox's murderer as a supporter of the far-right. Should we denounce all supporters of far-right policy as potentially murderous because of Mair's actions?

Although one shudders to contemplate the carnage he could have committed had he had access to the kinds of fire power freely available in the US.

And you are so right, otb, what could I have been thinking in raising US gun availability as partially to blame for the staggering number of deaths when Mateen went off.

Oh...but then again...

"Guns Have Killed At Least 125 Americans Since The Orlando Pulse Massacre"

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/17/guns-have-killed-at-least-125-americans-since-the-orlando-pulse-massacre.html

NB: - that was two days agao - so you can probably add another fifty gun murders to the total.

Nothing to do with US gun culture though I'm sure.

......

SM,

"Since 1972 there have been 74 islamic religion inspired fatal attacks in the USA with a death toll of 3160."

Where's your proof that there have been 74 attacks (presumably by Muslims)?

More to the point, where's your proof that they were Islamic inspired?

Poirot,

Google is a great tool, it took me 30 seconds to find the info.

The problem with guns is that it allows any idiot with a grudge to take lethal action, but what your figures left out is the bombings, knife attacks, etc.

The point that I am making is that the religious attacks around the world are predominantly muslim perpetrated, and nearly all of them find links to extremist groups, and the further problem is that the teachings of "moderate" congregations essentially teaches that a range of crimes deserve death incl homosexuality, women adulterers, heretics, those that give up Islam, blasphemy, etc, plus that beating and mistreatment of women is ok.

Essentially the "moderate" teachings of Islam differ from radical teachings by only a matter of degree.

Poirot,

Your attention has already been drawn to the weaknesses of the numbers claimed by that crowd-funded 'gun control' activist site run by someone who goes by an internet nickname. It is deliberately misleading. See here,

<As an apologist for Islam and purveyor of radical feminist factoids (while claiming not to be a feminist), you are shameless with your win at any cost BS.

For the many who care facts,

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/opinion/how-many-mass-shootings-are-there-really.html?_r=2
Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 18 June 2016 11:15:26 AM >

It is usual for some of the other long squatting leftist nags on this site to keep recycling wrong information and outright porkies, despite being corrected many times by other contributors.

Here is another informed assessment of that shabby site you quote,

"The Mass Shooting Tracker obfuscates the variety of circumstances that give rise to gun violence in the United States — and uses that misleading data to push a political point. On Wednesday, mainstream media outlets and politicians indulged in exactly the same behavior.

Whatever policy prescriptions may exist to curtail gun violence in the United States, they ought to be based on an accurate assessment of the problem, not on data slyly misinterpreted by those with partisan purposes."

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/427985/media-mass-shootings-count-misleading

SM,

Link us to the site where found the info.

I know there is no official US govt site as for obvious reasons they don't want to upset gun manufacturers and importers - or the NRA....but other groups do the tracking relying on media and medical reports.

No doubt your site for that info is as partisan and dodgy as they come.

My point about Mair and guns is that he was only able to stab one other person who came to Cox's aid (terrible as that is).....imagine anyone even contemplating taking on a murderous man like Mateen while he's wielding an AR-15.

Poirot, "I know there is no official US govt site as for obvious reasons they don't want to upset gun manufacturers and importers - or the NRA."

Leftist paranoia. As well, it is part of the modus operandi of leftist 'Progressives', the self-described 'Wolves in Sheep's Clothing' to lie to encourage doubts about government bodies and the well-founded, well tested, democratic institutions and checks and balances.

Poirot (to Shadow Minister), "No doubt your site for that info is as partisan and dodgy as they come"

Says the poster who continues to quote from a flakey site run by some anonymous internet dude.

Poirot, "..imagine anyone even contemplating taking on a murderous man like Mateen while he's wielding an AR-15"

It is the modus operandi of the gutter media to sensationalise to gather a dumbed down audience for their advertisers. And politicians, some cynical, and others who are numerically and logically challenged. The AR15 is all black metal and plastic with features like a carrying handle. It shoots one round at a time, no more. A conscious HUMAN decision is needed to pull the trigger on each occasion and to deliberately select the target.

What the Cox murder proves is that there are always offenders who plan and carry out the most awful and disgusting crime imaginable, murder. Murder has always been unlawful and subject to strong penalties. The choice of tool to commit murders is the offender's alone.

Nothing should be allowed to diminish the evil SOB's responsibility for his/her crime. Effective regulation and law enforcement must concentrate on the person.

Paul,

You keep harping on about the isolated incident of the farmer/grazier Turnbull having a licenced firearm but it is part of the Greens firearm proposals that farmers be allowed to have firearms; somewhat of a double standard and ambulance chasing.

P,

Collected and catalogued.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/american-attacks.aspx

Better than the dodgy apologist sites to which you link.

Here is a list of Islamist attacks around the world,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

When you have finished going through the pages and pages, then tell me that I am just imagining it.

Oh here comes "onthebeach" in full odious snarl.

In this case, one ad hom deserves another...

otb - as an apologist for far right-wing ideological bigotry and purveyor of radical masculine factoids (while claiming to be balanced and oh-so outraged) you are shameless with your win at any cost BS.

"For the many who care facts"

So the "facts" come from the NY Times...they must do because that's where otb linked to support his argument. Not a shabby" site at all.

Here we go....

"The mass shooting in Orlando on Sunday was appalling in scale: 49 killed in a single attack. But it’s not unusual for dozens of Americans to be killed by guns in a single day."

"...Counting mass shootings that make headlines and the thousands of Americans murdered one or a few at a time, gunshot homicides totaled 8,124 in 2014, according to the F.B.I."

"This level of violence makes the United States an extreme outlier when measured against the experience of other advanced countries."

"In the United States, the death rate from gun homicides is about 31 per million people — the equivalent of 27 people shot dead every day of the year. The homicides include losses from mass shootings, like Sunday’s Orlando attack, or the San Bernardino, Calif., shooting last December. And of course, they also include the country’s vastly more common single-victim killings."

Etc...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/upshot/compare-these-gun-death-rates-the-us-is-in-a-different-world.html

It is usual for some of the other long squatting rightist nags on this site to keep recycling wrong information and outright porkies, despite being corrected many times by other contributors.

Folks, you'll have to excuse the mirroring of the ad hom belligerence included in my post to the person who posts as "onthebeach" - but it drives home his strategy when it comes to airing his views.

I'm sure he's a lovely bloke - but you don't want to disagree with him, otherwise it's full right-wing bellicosity replete with insult and outrage.

Poirot,

Upon finding yourself over your ears in a deep hole of your own making, the rational thing to do is to stop digging.

But no, you are not going to do that, because you might have to concede that you are wrong.

It is foolish of you to cast about to find some excuse somehow to diminish the culpability of those foul murderers for their despicable crimes.

What about your contention (expressed via a link), that "Toxic masculinity was just as much to blame for the Orlando shootings as radical Islam"?*

And your speculation about firearms and the size of a man's penis.*

'Toxic masculinity' - Grievance Feminism*. Absolute bollocks, self-serving and very nasty. Reprehensible that you would try to excuse and lessen the responsibility of that disgusting, evil murderer and Islam.

*Grievance Feminism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iWa-5zWJgU
Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 18 June 2016 12:40:09 PM

Orb,

Please link to the post where I speculated about the size of a man's penis.

.....except to say that I couldn't give a toss about that aspect.

(Good luck with that)

Why aren't you praising my link to the NY Times article?

After all, that's where one goes for facts according to you.

It's no mystery that US mass firearm murders are carried out by men.

Love the way you continually repost your earlier commentary - especially the ones you've carefully crafted to include your most obnoxious ad hom....who else does that around here?

Got a little relevance deprivation thing happening have you?

Ah well....

//the further problem is that the teachings of "moderate" congregations essentially teaches that a range of crimes deserve death incl homosexuality, women adulterers, heretics, those that give up Islam, blasphemy, etc, plus that beating and mistreatment of women is ok.

Essentially the "moderate" teachings of Islam differ from radical teachings by only a matter of degree.//

Another assertion without supporting data. I'm beginning to think he just makes this stuff up as he goes along.

//tell me that I am just imagining it.//

You aren't imaging that there are Islamic terrorists. What you are imagining is that all Muslims are violent fundamentalists. It's telling that you haven't managed to google up any data to support that belief.

It's strange, because you don't seem to imagine that all Buddhists are violent fundamentalists even though some of them are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence

Or that all Christians are violent fundamentalists even though some of them are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

Or that all Jews are violent fundamentalists even though some of them are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_terrorism

Well, you get the idea. Why is Islam the only religion where you imagine that some violent fundamentalists necessarily makes all of them violent fundamentalists? Is it because you accept some right-wing opinion as fact, without worrying about the evidentiary basis of these 'facts'?

"orb" obviously meant to be "otb"

Working on iPad and find those things slip through more often as opposed to the laptop.

Tony,

Before saying something idiotic like "Another assertion without supporting data" perhaps you would look at more than just my last post as I am not in the habit of repeating myself endlessly. Especially, considering that your opinion is entirely reference free.

The link to the article on Sydney Imams condemning homosexuality and declaring that it deserved the death penalty, and the link to the British survey which showed that only 18% of British muslims thought gay sex should legal (both naturalised and British born) shows how little western values are taken on board by muslims, compared to for example the chinese.

To disprove what I said, you are free to give examples where I am wrong such as Imams that don't think that death is an appropriate sentence for gays. I know poirot has tried and failed.

I wonder how Mair got a gun?

It is clear from the responses in this thread that the Orlando shooting has been identified as Islamic Terrorism. there are few dissenting voices; but in the main we have swallowed the line that this is a Islamic Terrorist attack.
I would suggest that we stop swallowing the 'official' line that all of these various mass shootings around the world are a product of Islamic Terrorism. For there is an other way of looking at the evidence.
Throughout the Western World we have rising inequality - the people who feel the brunt of this are the youth and in particular youth from minority backgrounds.
In addition over the last fifty years we have effectively dismantled our mental health support network.
Thirdly the media is very good at promoting Islamic Terror - we see references to people being martyrs.
In this case of Orlando we see an immediate simplistic response. The shooter was a Muslim therefore it is a case of Islamic Terrorism end of story nothing more to be said.
It fits in with our own preconceptions and feeds our fear of a religion we do not really understand.
So why have we ignored that this was an attack on a gay night club? Any night club that serves alcohol is breaking Sharia law is it a coincidence?
The strong homophobic rhetoric that pervades american politics cannot be ignored.
It is unlikely that we will ever know his real motivation but of course it is politically convenient to label this as an act of Islamic terroism and move on.

Baygon,

I suppose you're right, the news organisations should have realised that the gunman's call to media outlets and police claiming to be acting on the behalf of ISIS, and the extremist comments and rampant homophobia that he expressed to colleagues and coworkers was simply a cry for help from a muslim man suffering from oppression, expressed in an innovative new form of interpretive dance.

No that is not what I am saying; I am not saying it is a cry for help; far from it. What I am saying is that the simplistic pavlovian response that this can be categorised as a terror attack blinds us to a range of possible alternative causes. When Brevic carried out his mass shooting people wanted to find out what motivated him - it did not make sense but if the perpetrator is Muslim well then we do not have to look further clearly he is a terrorist - that sort of lazy thinking is no help in coming to understanding why this happened.

yep and the doctors and others who received great education and jobs from the US were so oppressed they flew planes into the twin towers. Nothing to do with Islam of course.

Well done Runner you are on the money. If you want to support your post with some evidence you need go no further than look here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRbq63r7rys

Baygon,

This proof that left whingers have no sense of humour.

One of the first things the media knew of the attack, was the gunman phoning up the media and the police and claiming that the attack was on the behalf of ISIS.

That subsequent investigation turned up that the gunman frequented ISIS websites, and expressed extremist and homophobic views to his colleagues made a firm link between Islamic extremism and this terrorist act.

Given that ISIS revels in its brutality chopping off heads for the flimsiest reasons and burning women alive for resisting rape, it could credibly be claimed that any ISIS follower had mental health problems.

The media are simply calling a spade a spade.

Shadow, I don't often agree with what you say, but in this case you state the obvious. Any individual that massacres 49 innocent people in the way Mateen did in Orlando cannot be considered normal, and must have had mental health issues, the bloke was a nutter!

It is easy to look at the whole issue in a simplistic way, Islamic fundamentalism, plus ISIS, plus the radicalized and mentally unstable Mateen, equals 50 dead people, that is fact. However, I believe there are wider questions to be answered, gun control laws, how to deal with all forms of radicalism external and internal, religious fundamentalism, the stabilization of the world, particularly the Middle East and many more problems. If the world including Australia fails to address those, and other difficult, complex questions, then deaths from war and terrorism are going to continue unabated. The world needs to come to the realization that the past and present approach is not working, and something different has to be done, and done soon.

Paul,

To compare guns with extremist radical islamic teachings, 99.99% of people that have guns don't actually go out and shoot people. Similarly 99.99% of muslims taught that Sharia law is the will of god incl that homosexuals should be executed don't go out on a killing rampage.

Using the same logic, the world would be safer with fewer guns and Imams that preach hate/murder of gays heretics etc would be banned from preaching.

Senate rejects four gun-control measures after Orlando shooting

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-guns-idUSKCN0Z61BS

"The U.S. Senate on Monday rejected four measures restricting guns after last week's mass shooting in an Orlando nightclub, although lawmakers were still trying to forge a compromise that could keep firearms away from people on terrorism watch lists.

In a familiar setback for gun control advocates, all four of the measures to expand background checks on gun buyers and curb gun sales to those on terrorism watch lists - two put forth by Democrats and two by Republicans - fell short of the 60 votes needed for passage in the 100-member chamber."

"Republicans and their allies in the NRA gun lobby said the Democratic bills were too restrictive and trampled on the constitutional right to bear arms. Democrats attacked the Republicans' plans as too weak."

An average of 27 people a day murdered by firearms in the US.

Let's face it, SM.

If Mateen had entered a gay bar with a revolver and shot one patron, you wouldn't have even have noticed the story, let alone started a thread to blame Islam about for the entirety of it.

The fact that Mateen could easily access an AR-15 and take out 49 patrons in one murderous action appears to have escaped your venerable analysis.

Hey Toni,
Sorry I didn't reply to your comment on the other thread, I've been having internet problems for a few days and haven't been online.

I'm not saying I support kids in bullying others.
I agree that all people should be able to live without fear of discrimination.

I've said this so many times before.
I believe in freedom and liberty for everyone, but I don't think any person should be forced to give up their freedoms and liberties so someone else can have theirs.

Therefore I don't believe ALL kids should be indoctrinated with a gay ideology just because a minority group has issue with the current status quo.

This isn't because I'm some anti-gay / pro religious nut-job, which I'm not. (Nor am I actually the most gullible man in space and time)
It's simply because I do not believe these kinds of things should be forced upon young kids or discussed at length by people other than parents.

I'm not necessarily saying I support the old system.
I'm just saying I most definitely DO NOT support the new system IF that system is indoctrination of children with a biased sexual agenda pushed onto kids who aren't ready for it because of a few kids in a minority group whom are just as likely raised by same sex parents.

If gays think that's ok, they've crossed the line and I won't support their 'idea' of equality, and it has nothing to do with hating queers.

I'm not going to go from one bad system to another.
Give me a system that works that doesn't rely on 'retraining' the minds of others in such a way that says "It's not us gays that own the problem, it's everyone else."

The second they start promoting the idea that its everyone else's fault for acknowledging they are different instead of them for actually being different that's the second they've lost me.

Poirot,

If the nutter had had a revolver why would you think that only one person would be shot?

As it was a gun free zone then he'd have had plenty of time to reload and shoot as many as he liked.

P,

Most revolvers hold 6 shots, and if Mateen had entered a gay bar with a revolver and shot 3 patrons and announced to the media that he was doing this for ISIS, it would probably be attributed to Islamic terrorism.

Is Mise,

I used one person being shot as an example.

"As it was a gun free zone then he'd have had plenty of time to reload and shoot as many as he liked."

So you're trying to tell me that other folks would just stand by and watch him reload without intervening?

My point is that without the semi-automatic firepower of the AR-15, Mateen would not have been able to shoot as many as he did.

This is why every sane person thinks that it is an islamic motivated attack.

"US gunman Omar Mateen identified himself as an Islamic soldier in calls with authorities during his rampage and demanded to a crisis negotiator that the country's army "stop bombing Syria and Iraq", according to transcripts released by the FBI.

The partial transcripts were of a 911 call made by Mateen and three conversations he had with the police crisis negotiators during the worst mass shooting in modern US history, in which 49 people died and dozens were wounded.

Those communications, along with Facebook posts and searches Mateen made around the time of the shootings, add to the public understanding of the final hours of Mateen's life and to the possible motivations behind the rampage.

The first call came more than a half-hour after shots rang out, when Mateen told a 911 operator, "Praise be to God, and prayers as well as peace be upon the prophet of God," he told the dispatcher, referring to God in Arabic.

"I let you know, I'm in Orlando and I did the shootings."

During the 50-second call with a dispatcher, Mateen "made murderous statements in a chilling, calm and deliberate manner," Ronald Hopper, FBI assistant special agent in charge in Orlando, said during a news conference."

Poirot, "So you're trying to tell me that other folks would just stand by and watch him reload without intervening?"

Yes. The public do not know how to react and mill about. That is precisely what is so dangerous where offenders choose shopping centres, night clubs and so on. Worse, the risks are magnified for police who are in a cleft stick. However intervention is usually necessary otherwise the certainty is even more casualties.

Poirot, "My point is that without the semi-automatic firepower of the AR-15, Mateen would not have been able to shoot as many as he did"

You are ignorant and that hasn't been helped by the media and others who know better, sensationalising the particular weapon to stereotype, and to hype up and entertain :( a dumbed-down audience.

A long arm and the AR15 is one, hampers the offender in closed areas and makes his cruel job harder. A 'wheel' gun, a revolver, is easy is point and use and very easily reloaded and quickly. It is harder to knock out of line and take from him/her. However there are other short arms that would be preferred.

Two things:

1. lazy tabloid hacks making their reporting easier and more commonly, making and embellishing the news rather than reporting it; and

2. media and political interests sensationalising events are encouraging copy cats and other offenders who know that the Gold Warrant way of getting the national and international media exposure they crave for themselves or their causes is to employ the tactics that have worked for others. That can come down to using a similar weapon.

It is has been long known for example, that sensationalising suicides in the media WILL result in many copycats and for a long time after (incl when the reports are reused)

Shadow Minister,"..Using the same logic, the world would be safer with fewer guns and Imams that preach hate/murder of gays heretics etc would be banned from preaching"

That should be, "..Using the same logic, the world would be safer with fewer ILLEGAL guns and Imams that preach hate/murder of gays heretics etc would be banned from preaching"

Predictably, 'gun control' activists are NOT interested in evidence-based regulation. Nor are they interested in illegal firearms and the thugs who unlawfully possess and use them. Just bans and confiscations affecting the legally acquired and duly registered assets of ordinary law-abiding citizens.

"Predictably, 'gun control' activists are NOT interested in evidence-based regulation. Nor are they interested in illegal firearms and the thugs who unlawfully possess and use them. Just bans and confiscations affecting the legally acquired and duly registered assets of ordinary law-abiding citizens."

That's all very well, otb...but this wonderful system you laud produces an average of 27 firearm murders "a day" in the US.

Poirot,

I will not bother to educate you on the shonky stats you quote and your further manipulation of them. Because others have done that before and to no avail.

Just to repeat that, "Correlation does not imply causation". Here you go, knock yourself out,

http://www.fastcodesign.com/3030529/infographic-of-the-day/hilarious-graphs-prove-that-correlation-isnt-causation

It takes a lot of gall to discount the contributions of the social problems in the US though. Shamefully, nothing was gained in that department from having a black President.

No way that the 'Progressives' will ever 'fess up to the unforeseen negative consequences of their social experimentation.

27 murders a day Poirot?
So where do these murders happen?
Oh Chicago you say where they have tough restrictions on guns...
In black / gang / poverty / drug neigbourhoods?

They already have gun laws there.
Your argument just vaporized into fantasyland.
... Like a great idea that never actually happened.

I think its foolish to try to compare gun murders in America to our country for example where we have very few gun-murders, you have to recognise the the other differences between our countries.

They don't have Medicare and Centrelink in the US the same way we do.
If they took those away in Australia and we had easy access to guns I may want to be armed for fear of criminals as well.

And what you all forget is what the Second Amendment in the US is for.
The right to overthrow a tyrannical government.

I support the idea that US citizens are under no obligation to obey a criminal Hillary Clinton government should she be elected because shes already committed espionage after giving staff directions to remove 'top-secret' classifications of documents sent through her unsecured and unsanctioned private server which means she's not eligible to hold the position of POTUS.
Not no mention all the other controversies and failures that surround her.

If Hillary Clinton is elected US President, I also support the US citizens right to resist any attempt on her part to take their guns, a part of the constitution she swore to uphold.
I would support the citizens right to form militia and overthrow such a criminal and tyrannical government by force if necessary, if they chose to.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson
That's what the second amendment is for, do you get it now?

One thing that's been a foundation of government all through the ages and even today is corruption.
The second amendment is the ultimate check and balance on government.

Otb,

Those "shonky" figures are from the FBI.

For 2014, the FBI's Figures were 8,124

More often the annual total is quoted at Round 11,000 with a further 20,000 attributed to suicide by firearm.

You only have to watch real life trauma units in America - there are tv shows recording real life emergency depts where gunshot victims are brought in day after day, time after time , to see how the epidemic of gun trauma stalks that nation.

Religion just gives people an excuse to confirm their personal hatreds.

"The Bible says that God hates gays so it must be OK for me to hate them too."

The same verse also says that God hates shellfish yet the same homophobes have probably eaten oysters, worked on the Sabbath and deliberately worn two different types of cloth but the haters conveniently overlook the others.

Some will moan about abortion but have no problem dropping bombs on pregnant women in other countries and the "hate the sin but love the sinner" claim is a typically cowardly response to hide their true feelings.

That's how religion works.

The police who ran into the gay nightclub to save the victims were running in to bash and arrest them in similar clubs not very long ago.

That's how morality works.

and the excuse for your hatred Rache?

Poirot,

Have you never heard of a Speed Loader?
Especially developed to facilitate the very speedy reloading of revolvers and remember that well made double action revolvers (the norm) have a higher cyclic rate of fire than semi-automatic pistols.

As for peoples' reactions, one survivor of Port Arthur said that the murderer was standing right in front of him when he, the murderer, changed magazines.
One survivor of Orlando related how he heard the empty casings hitting the floor, then a pause as the mag was changed.
Compare these instances with the soldier who was torn apart by the people in Tiananmen Square when he attempted to change magazines.

Peoples' reactions vary and no one who has not been trained should be blamed for not having a go at an armed attacker; it takes split second reactions and timing to take a gun away from someone and one must be prepared to kill to do so.

"and the excuse for your hatred Rache?"

Never mine runner, rache.

He always accuses others of hatred around here.

It's what he uses in the absence of debating skills.

Poirot,

This puts the last nail in the coffin for your "not islamic extremist" theory.

"The FBI and the US Justice ­Department stand accused of suppressing the role of Muslim ­extremism in the Orlando nightclub massacre — by censoring gunman Omar Mateen’s support for Islamic State and its leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

“I pledge allegiance to (omitted) may God protect him (in Arabic), in behalf of (omitted)” read the first version of the self-proclaimed “Islamic soldier’s” calls to 911 from the Pulse gay nightclub.

The redacted version of the killer’s phone calls during the slaying of 49 people prompted social media uproar, and ridicule from Republican House Speaker Paul Ryan yesterday.

In apparent lock-step with US President Barack Obama’s contempt for the “distraction” posed by the words “radical Islamist ­extremism”, the FBI came under pressure for withholding Islamic State-related elements of its ­inquiry and transcripts of much of Mateen’s phone calls and social media activities.

FBI spokesman Ronald Hopper said: “Part of redacting is to not give credence to individuals who have done terrorist acts in the past. They are not going to propagate their violent rhetoric.”

Mr Ryan replied in a tweet: ­“Selectively editing this transcript is preposterous. We know the shooter was a radical Islamist ­extremist inspired by ISIS).”

The FBI said it had redacted then reinstalled several mentions of Islamic State so it did not “revictimise” the victims and give ­extremists “a publicity platform for hateful propaganda”.

Mateen’s Islamic exhortations, pledges of support to Islamic State, and religious and ideological fervency appeared to contradict FBI director James Comey’s claim on June 13 that “at this time it’s not entirely clear just what terrorist group he aspired to support”.

The new information indicated a far more coherent and determined Islamic State-devoted killer, aware of recent terror attacks and the key grievances of jihadists than had been admitted."

What we do know, regardless of what motivated Mateen, is the fact he was easily and legally able to obtain the necessary firearms to carry out his terrible crime. Surely this must sound alarm bells that something with gun laws is not right in America, but it seems not. We cannot be complacent in Australia, Ian Turnball was also able to obtain a legal firearm to commit premeditated murder in our country.

SM,

None of that changes the fact that Mateen was able to slay so many people because he had access to powerful semi-automatic weaponry.

Don't quote me articles and then fail to include the relevant link.

Where's the link?

//Therefore I don't believe ALL kids should be indoctrinated with a gay ideology//

What on earth is a gay ideology?

//This isn't because I'm some anti-gay / pro religious nut-job, which I'm not.//

I never said you were pro-religious.

//Nor am I actually the most gullible man in space and time//

I have yet to see any evidence to support that hypothesis.

//It's simply because I do not believe these kinds of things should be forced upon young kids or discussed at length by people other than parents.//

What, that there are queer people in the world? Well, gosh, we wouldn't kids to learn that. Any other groups of people you think educators should lie to kids about and pretend don't exist? I vote for Scientologists and conspiracy theorists: because if we just sweep them under the rug and pretend they're not there they'll just go away, right Armchair Critic?

//that system is indoctrination of children with a biased sexual agenda//

Teaching kids that being queer is okay is a 'biased sexual agenda'? Oh dear. You've really let the cat out of the bag there, haven't you? So much for not hating queers.

I don't support this system of indoctrination of children with a biased hand-dominance agenda pushed onto kids who aren't ready for it because of a few kids in a minority group who are just as likely raised by left-handed parents. We shouldn't be teaching kids that left-handedness is okay just because a handful of those disgusting freaks claim that they deserve the same respect as us normal right-handed people. I don't mind if they practice their nasty left-handed perversions in private, but once they asking to be treated the same way as normal people they've crossed a line.

//whom are just as likely raised by same sex parents//

What does anybody's parenting have to do with anything?

//If gays think that's ok, they've crossed the line//

What line have they crossed?

//Give me a system that works that doesn't rely on 'retraining' the minds of others in such a way that says "It's not us gays that own the problem, it's everyone else."//

What problem do gays 'own'? Being queer? That's not a problem, Armchair Critic.

The fact that you think it is tells me exactly what kind of unpleasant little toad you are.

//The second they start promoting the idea that its everyone else's fault for acknowledging they are different instead of them for actually being different//

And now you're going to blame the victim. Nice. Because homophobia is all really the queer's fault for being queer in the first place, right Armchair Critic?

Toni Lavis:

“The fact that you think it is tells me exactly what kind of unpleasant little toad you are.”

The fact that you say this tells us what a gutless coward you are. Dismissing someone like that is a refusal to deal with his arguments for no other reason than that you think he is a toad. You have tried to respond to some of his arguments but you also dismiss him as a toad.

Dismissing him as a toad gives you an excuse to avoid having to deal with his arguments. It is the same thing with labelling people as homophobic. “I do not have to argue with you because you are clearly incapable of seeing reason. You are blinded by the dark mist of your homophobia” Just label someone and then slink off into your own little world where there is no opposition to your views.

If you do not agree with the toad then you have two options. You can just ignore him or you can engage with his arguments and just his arguments. You do neither when you call him a toad. You are interested in his arguments to a point where you are confident in your arguments but then you resort to trying to dismiss him as a person not worthy of rational argument.

You either hide behind the purpose of the forum, which is to exchange arguments, in order to belittle him because you are too afraid to engage with his arguments or you do not have the courage of your convictions that he is indeed incapable of rational argument in which case you would ignore him. Either way you are a coward.

Poirot,

I know that you are trying to divert this into an issue about guns, however, the difference in weapon would have meant fewer casualties, but would not have changed the motivation nor have prevented the attack.

Notably automatic weapons and explosives are not available in France or Belgium either, but were smuggled in.

Look everyone,
There's always another angle to every argument.
I could argue that the reason people are killed in mass shootings is because they were unarmed.

But you guys are all missing the elephant in the room.
I think you have all ignored it long enough and its time to take things seriously.
Respectfully, you can all make fun of me being a conspiracy theorist all you want but don't deprive yourself of the knowledge you need to become informed.

Paul Craig Roberts worked in the Whitehouse under Reagan and he openly questions whether the Orlando Shooting event actually occurred.
When people with this much respect start saying things like this its time to take the idea a little more seriously than if I'd said it alone.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2016/06/14/my-several-million-readers-are-unable-to-help-me-prove-the-official-story/

THERE'S NO EVIDENCE THE EVENT ACTUALLY OCCURRED.
Sorry for using caps, but it's really about time you ALL took the blinkers off.
Don't you all realise you're being had by these events?
And acting exactly the way they want you to act.

Focussed on this 'nothing' issue (You can't bring back the dead if there were people killed) and arguing amongst yourself over petty aspects of an event which may have been staged?

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2016/06/20/orlando-wrap-up-paul-craig-roberts/

I told you all nearly 2 weeks ago this thing stunk, and that was just at first glance.
Why do you think I said it?
Will not the possibility of being taken for a fool not prompt you people to investigate properly?

You people need to get out of your deluded dream states.
And you should be insulted it come from a tin-foil hat wearer like me.

The term 'conspiracy theorist' was coined so that regular people like many of you wouldn't look at certain things, and remain useful idiots.

SM,

Where's the link?

Armchair Critic,

Thank's for pointing that out, the shooting in front of the Parramatta police station was staged as everyone who looks into these things knows and the bikies involved in the Milperra Massacre were all paid up members of Actors Equity.

We also all know that the WW II battle of Iwo Jima was merely a starter for the later complete movie, staring John Wayne; spending money on such a scale couldn't be justified in wartime so Hollywood and the US Government conspired and faked a battle in the Pacific.

P,

To compensate for your lack of google skills:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/06/20/many-outraged-reference-isil-omitted-orlando-911-transcript/86139678/

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-20/fbi-releases-censored-orlando-911-call-transcripts

Call a spade a spade, and an Islamic terrorist an Islamic terrorist.

Thank you, SM

It's common courtesy to back up your quotes with a link to the article.

I wouldn't expect you to go googling to access an article that I quoted - have no idea why you would expect the rest of us to go googling to find the source of your quotes.

Poirot,

Searching for a quote for the technologically disinclined in 5 seconds:

1 Select the quote with your mouse
2 Right click on the selection and choose "Search for ..."

and google will come up with all the recent articles with that wording in it.

I often use it whether or not the original link is included as it tells me where the story originated.

SM,

if a quoted article link is left out of a post, it's invariably deliberately left out...as often the source is dodgy or partisan - or both.

I notice you do it a lot.....but most around here are happy to supply the link after the quote.

Anybody like to contest the fact that the murder in Orlando couldn't have done the same thing with a 1900 era double barrel shotgun?

Is Mise, what is your point, tell the families of the 49 dead, "well folks he could have done the same thing with a 1900 era double barrel shotgun, tough luck, get over it." Has the Australian gun lobby sent an apology along with their condolences to the family of Glen Turner who was brutality murdered by one of their own licensed shooters Ian Turnbull. After all the gun lobby were okay with Turnbull having a gun licence, they never raised any objection, now did they. Just as the American gun lobby seem happy with the way Mateen was able to obtain guns to commit mass murder.

Make fun of me if you like, I haven't even watched any television coverage of this event.
I'll tell you why I thought this event was suss from the word go.
Mention of G4S and that the FBI was running some sort of operation.
- That's all I had to hear.

What I know, (and obviously many of you don't) is that the FBI doesn't foil these events, IT CO-OPS THEM, and G4S is often mentioned in these kinds of events as well.

I can't provide links as my internet is terrible today but you guys can look it up and I'll add links when I can.
Look up that Hillary Clinton stopped investigations into Omar Mateen's Mosque prior to the event occurring. Look it up.
Interesting the Clinton Foundation received so much money from Saudi Arabia isn't it?

And stop whinging about the guns, it's like your all trapped in some endless loop.
Anyone can go buy an M60 off the shelf at WalMart.
Omar passed all the gun checks he even worked issuing bail bonds at some point.
Look it up.

The fact the place was a gun-free zone and nobody else was armed either by conceal carry or constitutional carry meant that there was no way anyone could of defended themselves.
And of course the police aren't there to help.
Just as in the Lindt event the cops killed civilians, in this case I think they killed plenty.

So the important thing to note is that EVERYWHERE in Australia is a gun-free zone.
If some nut-jub does this ANYWHERE we're fish in a barrel and the cops are just as likely to shoot us than save us.
- Which is why Americans want guns to defend themselves.
There's an argument for having the right to a gun to defend yourself.

In Australia criminals can get guns, which means Islamist's can get guns, and we're all disarmed.
(I'm the first to correct people to say Islamic Extremism)

These events in America are at the very least co-opted and meant to take the guns of Americans.
Look it up.

Armchair Critic,

"And stop whinging about the guns, it's like your all trapped in some endless loop.
Anyone can go buy an M60 off the shelf at WalMart.
Omar passed all the gun checks..."

"The fact the place was a gun-free zone and nobody else was armed either by conceal carry or constitutional carry meant that there was no way anyone could of defended themselves."

My point exactly.

(Although if he'd been in possession of a lesser weapon, other patrons could have physically intervened to stop him reloading)

Another angle....

"The alleged gay lover of the man responsible for the Pulse gay nightclub shooting in Orlando claims the attack was "revenge" after discovering he had unknowingly had sex with an HIV-positive man.

Omar Mateen, 29, killed 49 people and wounded 53 others in the mass shooting on June 12.

Mateen's alleged lover - identified only as Miguel by US Spanish-language television broadcaster Univision and disguised with a prosthetic mask - said the pair became "friends with benefits" after meeting on gay geosocial network Grindr.

He claims that during their two-month sexual relationship, they had met at an Orlando hotel between 15 and 20 times.

Despite Mateen's 911 call and Facebook post pledging allegiance to ISIL during the rampage, Miguel believed the attack "is not terrorism"

Instead, he claimed the attack was Mateen's revenge after learning one of two Puerto Rican men he had engaged in a threesome with was HIV-positive.

"The thing that makes me want to tell the truth is that he didn’t do it for terrorism," Miguel told Univision.

"In my opinion he did it for revenge.

"He hated Puerto Rican gays for all the bad stuff they did."

"Pulse is where he felt used, rejected," Miguel said.

"He was always there and he was there because he liked Latinos and he was attracted to dark skin. But sadly, from what he told me, he felt used."

Miguel claimed that Mateen told him his wife was aware of his gay adulterous indiscretions and he thought his father might also be aware."

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2016/06/22/17/31/alleged-lover-of-orlando-shooter-claims-massacre-was-revenge-attack#2u8IBWpTM0aqDS2E.99

//I'll tell you why I thought this event was suss from the word go.
Mention of G4S and that the FBI was running some sort of operation.
- That's all I had to hear.//

Don't be ridiculous. This was a WCTU operation.

The WCTU are the Women's Christian Temperance Union, a group radically opposed to the consumption of alcohol. The event was orchestrated to make Americans more fearful of going to nightclubs, bars and other dens of inebriation so that they drink less.

Since drinking is forbidden in Islam, it is a fairly easy matter for the ATS to radicalise marginalised Muslim youths into committing these sorts of terror attacks. To avoid drawing attention to themselves so they can continue to strike from the shadows at America's liqour industry, they train their terrorist footsoldiers to claim allegiance to radical Islamic groups.

This event was designed to take the drinks out of the hands of decent, god-fearing American citizens. Look it up.

And don't think that this is just an American problem. We have our own branch of the WCTU in Australia. Who did you think was responsible for light beer? Nobody would have ever dreamed of brewing or drinking that watery shite if it weren't for the nefarious machinations of the WCTU.

Sorry, this sentence had an error:

Since drinking is forbidden in Islam, it is a fairly easy matter for the ATS to radicalise marginalised Muslim youths into committing these sorts of terror attacks.

It should have read:

Since drinking is forbidden in Islam, it is a fairly easy matter for the WCTU to radicalise marginalised Muslim youths into committing these sorts of terror attacks.

Here you go, SM...same story with more detail...

"A man claiming to be the Orlando shooter's lover says Omar Mateen was livid after discovering he'd had sex with an HIV-positive man.
The Hispanic gay man, identified only as Miguel, told Univision he met Omar Mateen on Grindr before they became 'friends with benefits', meeting up 20 times at a hotel in Orlando, Florida.

Miguel described Mateen as a confused gay man and a heavy drinker who was attracted to - but felt rejected by - Latinos.

He believes Mateen's massacre on Pulse nightclub's Latin Night was an attempt at 'revenge' after discovering that one of the two Puerto Rican gay men he'd had a threesome with was HIV-positive.

Speaking in fluent Spanish and broken English, Miguel said that despite tests coming up negative, Mateen feared not enough time had passed for an accurate result, and he wanted to 'make them pay'."

"Before the massacre, Miguel insists, Mateen seemed 'adorable' and 'sweet', adding that they often had oral sex and that Mateen 'loved to be cuddled... he loved to be embraced'.

Their first date, he said, was at a bar in Orlando called Parliament. 'It was like any other date,' he recounts."

"Every other meeting was at the city's Ambassador hotel, where they met 15 to 20 times between October and December 2015.

Univision said a representative for the hotel confirmed that Omar Mateen was a familiar face, and that he stayed at the hotel at least 63 times last year.

The FBI has obtained CCTV footage from the hotel, Univision reports."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3653734/Puerto-Rican-man-claiming-Orlando-shooter-s-gay-lover-describes-friends-benefits-relationship-says-attack-revenge-Omar-Mateen-discovered-one-men-d-threesome-HIV-positive.html#ixzz4CM65UugD

Mateen's actions had all the hallmarks of a guy who'd lost the plot - like many other instances in the US of mass shootings - and few of an organised attack inspired by Islam.

Paul,

Have the Australian Greens sent an apology along with their condolences to the family of Glen Turner who was brutality murdered by one of those that they approve of having firearms, Ian Turnbull. After all the Greens were okay with Turnbull having a gun licence, they never raised any objection; now did they?

Stop ambulance chasing, Paul.

The point, Paul, about the double barrel shotgun is that such a weapon would have been just as effective, something that those who have plenty of opinions on guns would know were it not for their abysmal lack of knowledge on firearms.

Poirot

The time to change magazines/reload a lesser weapon need not be any different to an AR15.
Did you know that such units as Quantrell's Raiders in the Civil War (1861-65) went into battle with a capacity of between 36 and 48 shots without needing to reload and that they could deliver these shots without pause?

Interesting enough we now have a 'gay lover'claiming that the massacre was revenge. DV among the homosexual level is far higher than the average population. NO doubt you are not allowed to go their without copping abuse and labelling. Again we see why issues that doesn't support the regressive dogmas will never be addressed.

Is Mise,

If semi-automatic weapons were not so readily available in the US - even to those on a terrorism watch list - then the scale of this tragedy could have been averted...that's all I'm saying.

I suppose if a person was keen enough, he could get hold of the sort of weaponry that wouldn't require reloading in the circumstances of more rigid gun control, however, in an ordinary circumstance, this wouldn't be the case - and others could physically intervene before mass casualties take place.

.....

runner,

You're having a good time,eh?

No matter which way it goes, you get to slam Islam, gays or "regressives".

I know how much you enjoy such reverie!

I think you'll find that in the case mass shootings in the US, that gay one's are far fewer in number than your ordinary heterosexual going troppo.

P,

I know that you are desperately trying to find a reason other than Islamic extremism for the Orlando shooting, but as pointed out earlier, there is never one sole reason why someone goes nuts on a murder spree, and to say he did it because of x, y or z is only ever a half truth.

There is no denying that Mateen was a devout Muslim and a follower of the more radical ISIS. His homosexuality and the resultant conflict with his radical faith, anger at betrayal, and the availability of guns all played a part, and most probably if any one of those factors had been removed, 49 people would still be alive.

To try and whitewash out the Islamic radicalisation is as absurd as trying to pretend that the availability of guns played no part.

You're having a good time,eh?

NOt really Poirot just amazed that the likes of you have certainly no clue as you are so bound by your narrative. Not surprising that you remain so ignorantly blind.

Poirot,

"If semi-automatic weapons were not so readily available in the US - even to those on a terrorism watch list - then the scale of this tragedy could have been averted...that's all I'm saying."

and all that I'm saying is that ths same number of murders and woundings could have been achieved with a weapon (DB shotgun) that is readily available in Australia, and on the lowest category of licence (A).

Just remember that at Port Arthur no one attacked the murderer whilst he was changing magazines and there is no reason to think that an untrained individual would respond effectively against a person armed with a shotgun.

@Poirot, Thursday, 23 June 2016 3:03:49 PM

How could you be naive? Is Mise is a skilled competitor and a professionally trained armourer. He has been trying you expert advice. But you have that continuous loop of 'gun control' misinformation running in your head that does not allow you to even register what he is saying.

What you should do for your own education and fun, is to contact a SSAA club and take part in one of their half-day, women only, adventure shoots at the local range. They supply everything. There are skilled trainers. It is cheap and easy to do. It is very social. Or you and your son go to a family oriented one. Just ring and find out.

//You're having a good time,eh?

NOt really Poirot//

Then why are you here? Serious question: if you don't enjoy the time you spend on here, wouldn't it make more sense to devote it to something you do enjoy?

otb,

"How could you be naive? Is Mise is a skilled competitor and a professionally trained armourer. He has been trying you expert advice. But you have that continuous loop of 'gun control' misinformation running in your head that does not allow you to even register what he is saying"

So?

That doesn't change anything in connection with the insane gun culture of the US and the average of around 27 people murdered each day by firearms.

How many people murdered by firearm in the US since or Orlando?

I'd hazard a guess at around 200.

......

SM,

"There is no denying that Mateen was a devout Muslim ..."

Oh yes, indeedy!

Devout Muslims are known to frequent gay night clubs and undertake homosexual liaisons at shady hotels.

You do understand the meaning of "devout" don't you?

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/devout

......

runner,

"NOt really Poirot just amazed that the likes of you have certainly no clue as you are so bound by your narrative. Not surprising that you remain so ignorantly blind."

Lol!....

I'm sorry but I seem to have missed any point or points that you have made while you've been busy trolling about on this thread.

Is there any underlying reasoning behind your constant venom spits?

I mean you never offer any real analysis in your run-by daubings. You just drop in, leave a short but odious post - and take off...the equivalent of knocking on someone's door and running.

P,

I do know the definition of devout, but apparently you don't.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/devout

Full Definition of devout
1 devoted to religion or to religious duties or exercises
2 expressing devotion or piety
3a devoted to a pursuit, belief, or mode of behavior : serious, earnest
b warmly sincere

Tell me where he does not comply.

Or do you think that one cannot be gay and Muslim?

SM,

Now you're tying yoursef in knots.

Remember when you posted this:

"it might seem trite! But ISIS is not a big supporter of gay rights...."
(page 2 of this thread)

You can't have it both ways...either Mateen was a "devout" Muslim and devotee of ISIS or he was a practicing gay man who indulged in liaisons at shady hotels with men he picked up in gay bars.

He can't be both.

You reckon he was a devout ISIS operative - and now you are saying that is compatible with a gay lifestyle.

Poirot, "So"

The 'So' is as I have explained to you previously but you have not comprehended,

"Correlation does not imply causation"

Here, again,
http://www.fastcodesign.com/3030529/infographic-of-the-day/hilarious-graphs-prove-that-correlation-isnt-causation

It anything matters it is the number of unlicensed persons with a firearm in the possession (again illegally of course) and the number and sources of illegal firearms.

Regarding the last mentioned, sources of illegal firearms, there is consistent, hard evidence from police statistics in Australia that thefts from legal owners is miniscule. In some jurisdictions often none annually. That shoots down your implied source of illegal guns.

Where violence is concerned and this includes from weapons as well as guns why are you going to considerable pains to ignore the elephant in the (US) room, which is social problems? If you want to talk about gun crime, that is majorly black on black involving gangs and drugs. Second tier, Hispanic involving gangs and drugs.

General information: Number 3 Buckshot has 18, 6.4 mm (.25 inch) pellets in each cartridge, thus 36 lethal projectiles can be fired from a double shotgun in less than 1/10 of a second, a three barrel gun can let 54 projectiles go in about 1/2 a second.
If the gun is cylinder bored and the softest (pure lead) shot is used then the pattern is going to be wide spread and hit numerous targets in a crowded room.

A double hammerless ejector shotgun can be reloaded in about 2 seconds by the medium skilled, experts can do better.

Otb,

What "implied source of illegal guns"?

I haven't discussed that on this thread.

I haven't discussed the firearm situation at all pertaining to Australia on this thread.

My commentary has mainly focused on the availability of "legal" firearms in the US.

Yes, all very impressive, Is Mise.

Is that supposed to prove that the US doesn't have a problem with firearm availability?

My point to SM about the multiple casualties and deaths from Mateen's attack was that if he had only managed to kill and injure one or a few people, SM probably wouldn't have even heard the news, let alone start shrieking about ISIS.

The overwhelming problem in the US is from single firearm murders - they are the ones which keep the mortality rate ticking over in the 20's week after week.

Poirot, 'My commentary has mainly focused on the availability of "legal" firearms in the US'

Why the inverted commas? Or is that to agree with 'gun control' activists (most financed by the Soros outfit apparently) who idiotically declare that 'all guns start legal'. Irrelevant, utter BS.

You would be very foolish indeed to claim that it was legal as in legally purchased and owned firearms that are implicated, you'd go further to say 'that cause', firearm offences.

Poirot, "The overwhelming problem in the US is from single firearm murders - they are the ones which keep the mortality rate ticking over in the 20's week after week"

The population is around 320 million. Next, would you care to prove that those murders 'in the 20's week(ly)' wouldn't occur if there were no firearms in the US? Logically one would think that anyone who has made that awful decision to kill would not be put off by the unavailability of a particular weapon, but would simply choose another method.

That happened with suicide in Australia, where the already highly preferred rope added some more where firearms were less accessible. The total stayed the same. It is counselling and other initiatives that lessened the incidence of suicide.

'Gun control' is not aimed at deterring and collaring offenders. It is NOT about evidence-based laws and effective regulation. It is just an obsession with banning ordinary respectable, law-abiding, licensed citizens from owning legal firearms and the State stealing back their legally acquired and legally used possessions from them

//the State stealing back their legally acquired and legally used possessions from them//

If the State takes their possessions legally, it's not stealing. It's only theft when the State unlawfully takes possessions from people. The State taking possession of illegal weapons is no more theft than it taking possession of illegal drugs.

Illicit drugs were illegal from the outset.

Where 'gun control' is invoked, assets already approved by the State, purchased with prior State approval and with the State's currency and being used for legal purposes is retrospectively banned and confiscated. Morally that is stealing.

It is interesting your comparison is with illicit drugs. Because gun crime in the US and here too is almost invariably associated with drugs and gangs. In the US most gun crime (and one would imagine other serious violence) is associated with gangs fighting over drug territory and drug sales and theft.

In fairness to Shadow Minister who originated the OP and others who are directing their questions to it, I will leave it at that because 'gun control' is unfairly hijacking the thread.

P,

I never realised that you were homophobic.

I have a gay friend that is a devout Christian, is he also mistaken?

Devout does not mean what you think it does.

"Is Muse" you said "and all that I'm saying is that ths same number of murders and woundings could have been achieved with a weapon (DB shotgun) that is readily available in Australia, and on the lowest category of licence (A)."

Please provide some evidence to that "fact" of yours!
Or is it just another one of your attempts to mitigate the impact of these extremely dangerous weapons in society. I think so.

I see your fellow licensed shooter (I assume you are licensed) Ian Turnbull got 35 years for the cold blooded murder of Environment Office Glen Turner

"He (Turnbull) had told the jury earlier in the trial that calmness came over him after he fired the first of three shots to hit Mr Turner, over a period of at least 20 minutes, at the side of a road."
So we can assume Turnbull was a normal gunnie, just defending his property, as gunnies claim they have a right to do, from unwanted intrusion by government and others?

Fortunately given his age the next person Turnbull meets on the out side should be fellow licensed gunnie Omar Mateen. they will get together in hell!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-23/moree-shooting-ian-turnbull-sentenced-over-murder/7535808

Poirot,
Heres another angle.

Did you know officers entered the nightclub and had the suspect trapped in the bathroom in the opening minutes of the shooting but we’re told to stand down and wait for SWAT?

http://investmentwatchblog.com/orlando-shooter-did-you-know-this/

If the police aren't going to act to protect people then is it not reasonable that people act to protect themselves?

Toni,
Its not ridiculous.
Do you think I'd let you have another Aaron Russo moment so easily?
Heres an article in the Guardian about the FBI entrapment tactics and fake terror plots.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots

And another...
http://www.brandonturbeville.com/2016/06/5-reasons-to-question-official-story-of.html

Here's one that mentions G4S
http://digwithin.net/2016/06/13/orlando_g4s/

When you know their MO you can pretty much tell if something smells off just from the first whiff.
Like I said earlier, I haven't really looked too much into this event as my internet is slow atm.

Theres 3 arguments to this story.
First is that Omar committed the attack and it happened more or less as we're told.
The second is that the FBI deliberately allowed the attack to occur.
The third, the whole thing was staged.

I don't know what the answer is, but it doesn't hurt to be open-minded and there are genuine red flags here.

If the reports of more than one shooter are accurate then on face value I'd lean towards the idea that Omar Mateen might've been a patsy that just copped a bullet in the head and the blame for an operation instigated by others, but that's just my 2 cents.
They may have been sending a kind of message to his father.
It's hard to know what the ex-wife's angle is.

"Illicit drugs were illegal from the outset."

Beach, what an ill-informed claim, heroin, opium, cocaine and marijuana to name four drugs that were at one time legal in both the US and Australia. So was lead in paints and petrol, until we realised how dangerous these thing are. Maybe we should realise the same about guns.

otb,

My "20's weekly" was a mistake..(but I had to wait 13 hours to correct it with post limits)

It's actually an average of around 27 a "day".

No I don't think it would be as high if other methods were used - many of the single shooting deaths are from people momentarily losing their temper and having a gun nearby - which only requires a click of the finger to discharge a lethal projectile.

........

SM,

You're really quite a light-weight debater aren't you.

You spend the entire thread assuring us Mateen was a devotee of ISIS, undertook his rampage representing ISIS, etc.

You've already said that ISIS "is not a big supporter of gay rights"...intimating that right there is your evidence of why Mateen chose the gay bar.

When it's pointed out that Mateen was likely a gay man indulging in a gay lifestyle, you then try to make out that is compatible with his devotion to ISIS.

And not only that - your response to my pointing that out is to say to me: "I never realised that you were homophobic."

Oh and: "I have a gay friend that is a devout Christian, is he also mistaken?"

Lol! - here we are talking about ISIS, a fundamentalist vicious offshoot of Islam. You reckon Mateen carried out the atrocity on its behalf, with a gay bar as the chosen target.....and now you're telling me that his being gay would be hunky dory with the movement you say he represents.

Try again, SM....

//Illicit drugs were illegal from the outset.//

No they weren't. Heroin was first synthesised in 1874 but didn't become popular until it was re-synthesised in 1897, after which it was marketed as morphine substitute and cough medicine. It was still legal to prescribe it until the mid-1920's in the US and the UK; in Australia it wasn't banned from legal prescription until 1953.

Assets already approved by the State, purchased with prior State approval and with the State's currency and being used for legal purposes were retrospectively banned and confiscated. Do you think that people should have been allowed to keep their heroin because they purchased it legally? Or was it justifiable for the State to 'steal' their drugs on the grounds of public health? I vote for the latter.

//Its not ridiculous.//

It's ridiculous to persist with your claim that 'the FBI done it' after I've explained to you who the real masterminds are: the Women's Christian Temperance Union. They are an ancient organisation who have been working in the shadows for centuries to steal all mankind's booze - and they would have succeeded if we did not have protectors: the Inebriati, or Knights Tippler, who are the sworn enemies of the wicked WCTU and dedicate their lives to protecting us all from teetotalism.

Here is a short documentary on the Inebriati, although the WCTU seem to have added a laugh track to make it seem comical:

http://www.videobash.com/video_show/slightly-less-than-2-drinks-the-key-to-get-ahead-in-life-mitchell-webb-2653541

To try and pretend the FBI were to blame when a far more logical explanation presents itself - that the WCTU were responsible - is absurd. Unless you're working for the WCTU...

Poirot,

You really are lightweight on logic.

You can be a true believer, even in the extreme version, but find one's self unable to comply entirely.

Mateen was clearly gay, but tried to be a good muslim by getting married and regularly beating his wife. However, he was also clearly ashamed of his homosexuality and this conflict drove him nuts. If he had not been muslim this internal conflict would never have occurred, and Mateen would have been free to indulge his peccadillos and his faith.

I guess that this is a hard concept to grasp for someone unaccustomed to thinking, but give it a shot.

SM,

"Mateen was clearly gay, but tried to be a good muslim by getting married and regularly beating his wife. However, he was also clearly ashamed of his homosexuality and this conflict drove him nuts. If he had not been muslim this internal conflict would never have occurred, and Mateen would have been free to indulge his peccadillos and his faith."

And that's your interpretation of "devout"?

What a load of waffling nonsense!

Let's take a step back....

Your entire premise in starting this thread was to push the line that Mateen was a hard line devotee of ISIS - and that he chose the gay bar because ISIS would approve the target - being as it's against all their fundamentalist principles.

So your angle was pretty much cut and dried.

Here was an ISIS inspired fundamentalist doing the bidding of his movement.

You posted:

"It doesn't help either that the shooter was a registered democrat, or that an Imam at an Orlando mosque was advocating death to homosexuals."

"Trying to paper over it as just another attack forgets that it was an Islamic inspired terrorist attack on western values."

"Between you and Poirot, it seems as though you are trying to find any reason for the Orlando massacre other than islamic radicalism."

"....This was an act of Islamic extremism against western values of tolerance."

Now you're saying the tussle between his homosexuality and his religion drove him "nuts".

(I made a point earlier that he'd lost the plot for whatever reason - and you rejected that, harping on the Islam-inspired extremist angle)

What happened to the evil premeditated extremist action of behalf of ISIS?

You're making it up as you go along....

Paul,

See my post on the number of lethal projectiles that can be fired from a shotgun in a fraction of a second and then think.
You might also consider that Australia's second worst shooting massacre was carried out with a single shot rifle.

Why do you persist in ignoring the fact that the Greens support farmers/graziers being allowed to have firearms, in many cases firearms that the ordinary licenced shooter is not allowed to own?

Is Mise, are you making the argument for the banning of all guns in private hands in society? I'll vote for that. Then what would gunnies do then to get their kicks?

What is the number of collateral damage (dead is such a horrible word) victims from firearms in society that is acceptable to gunnies, before they would agree to a total ban of private gun ownership? Seems in America that number is way way away. 27 a day is not nearly enough! What is the figure for Australia, do you shooters have a figure in mind? 1,000 10,000.

Toni Lavis,

What a waste of words to demonstrate your Googling skills for trivia.

'Illicit drugs were always illegal' is obvious to most as a confirmation of the status of drugs like heroin that have been illegal for the living memory of all here.

That heroin might have been freely available at some less scientific time in the past, or (say) that arsenic was used as face powder, is irrelevant and a diversion, as was your reference to drugs as a false comparison in the first place.
BTT

Paul,

I'm merely pointing out your paucity of knowledge on firearms.
How about matches, do the Greens support the unrestricted sale of matches?
What's the Greens' acceptable number of arson victims?
How are you doing with the Greens support for farmers having guns, or do you have a mote in the eye, about ambulance size?

P,

It must be terribly hard to understand that a terrorist might have more than one motive to commit carnage.

That he was muslim extremist, his frequenting of their sites, his posts and his comments to colleagues leaves no doubt. That he was influenced by ISIS to go out and kill is also not in doubt given his calm and deliberate messages to police and the media.

What is still unanswered is why he chose to massacre people at the gay club that he frequented. I have proposed that it was because of his conflict between his sexual orientation and his faith. While I have also suggested that he went nuts (based on my belief that an entirely sane person is not inclined to massacre innocents) the lack of any record of mental illness plus the cool and calm way he planned the attack over a few days indicated that legally he was completely rational.

The only rational conclusion is that whilst there might be other contributing factors, this was a deliberate and planned terror attack by a radical islamist.

SM:

I agree with you that the tension and stress of two opposing values could well have been enough to tip him over the edge.

He wanted two things but could only have one of them. He may have felt like he had to make a stance. Either leave his religion on which he was probably very dependent emotionally or let go of his homosexual relationships which he could also have been emotionally dependent on. The strain could have been enormous and the only way to resolve it as far as he was concerned was to show allegiance to one or the other.

He chose Islam but may just as easily have gone the other way and opened fire on a crowded mosque. No one can prove any of this but it cannot be disproved either.

Perhaps it was not about terrorism or guns or homophobia but a very mixed up and tormented individual.

SM,

"It must be terribly hard to understand that a terrorist might have more than one motive to commit carnage."

"...I have proposed that it was because of his conflict between his sexual orientation and his faith..."

That is not the premise you started out with on this thread.

Your only premise then was that he was an ISIS extremist who targeted the gay night club for the reason - and for that reason alone - that he was aligned with fundamentalist Islam.

Since then, we have learned more of his background - and now you want to have it both ways.

"The only rational conclusion is that whilst there might be other contributing factors, this was a deliberate and planned terror attack by a radical islamist."

So even though you have spent the latter part of your thread deconstructing your own former argument...you now complete your dissertation by brushing aside all the peripheral information and rebounding to the stance you took in the first place?

Laughable....

//What a waste of words to demonstrate your Googling skills for trivia.//

What a waste of words to say that you are in favour of the State confiscating contraband.

Poirot,

I have never deviated from the fact that Mateen was an Islamic terrorist inspired by ISIS, however, I have the IQ to understand that there is usually more than one issue and have been prepared to look at those too. That he was homophobic in his comments to others and online whilst appearing to be gay would appear to be a motivating factor in the choice of venue and a spur to continue.

You appear to be confused hopping from one motivation to the other. Grow up.

Paul,

"Is Mise, are you making the argument for the banning of all guns in private hands in society? I'll vote for that. ...."

No, but I'd support the banning of all guns in society.
Being a well trained swordsman (courtesy of the late, great, Charles Stanmore) I don't really need a gun; and as an equally well trained bowman I could still kill foxes and get a bunny or a hare for the table (as I still occasionally do with my bow, just to keep the hand in).

I'm with Bob Brown on teaching Anger Management to soldiers, it's very effective against rifle and machine gun fire.

Poirot

This puts the last nail in the coffin for your theories:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/orlando-shooting-omar-mateen-gunman-celebrated-911-at-school-a7079916.html

"When the Orlando massacre gunman Omar Mateen was 15 he openly rejoiced as he watched live coverage of the second plane hitting New York’s twin towers in 2001, boasting to classmates that Osama bin Laden was his uncle.

As an adult he told workmates he had links to Islamic terrorists and wanted to become a martyr. He bragged about having shared acquaintances with the Tsarnaev brothers who carried out the Boston marathon bombings. The US-born Muslim was interviewed three times by the FBI for alleged extremist views. A witness told the FBI Mateen watched al-Qa’ida videos. And as the bodies of those he shot at Orlando’s Pulse nightclub lay around him, he called 911 to profess his allegiance to Islamic State leader Abu Bakr ­al-Bagh­dadi. He then wrote on Facebook: “The real Muslims will not accept the filthy ways of the West … now taste Islamic State vengeance.”

Yet the Obama administration is going out of its way to censor the notion that Mateen was a radical Islamic terrorist. Barack Obama has described the Orlando shooting that killed 49 people as an act of terror and an act of hate but pointedly has avoided using the word Islamic when describing Mateen’s act of terrorism.

This week, the push to suppress any connection to Islam became farcical when the FBI released a partial transcript of Mateen’s call to 911 during the shootings but ­edited it so that all reference to ­Islamic State were deleted. Mateen’s claim to have carried out the massacre in support of Islamic State was hardly a secret; it was reported on the front page of virtually every newspaper in the world."

SM,

""When the Orlando massacre gunman Omar Mateen was 15 he openly rejoiced as he watched live coverage of the second plane hitting New York’s twin towers in 2001, boasting to classmates that Osama bin Laden was his uncle."

Right...his uncle....(?)

"As an adult he told workmates he had links to Islamic terrorists and wanted to become a martyr. He bragged about having shared acquaintances with the Tsarnaev brothers who carried out the Boston marathon bombings..."

Right...acquaintances....(?)

"....The US-born Muslim was interviewed three times by the FBI for alleged extremist views..."

Right...but they let him go.....

Mateen was a gay man indulging in a gay lifestyle...etc...

Right...sounds more like he was psychologically unbalanced and craving some sort of notoriety to me.

We've seen it before in all kinds of similar situations with mass murderers.

But why remove references to Islam in his statements ?

To me this looks a bit strange.

From the link given by SM above:

"The choice of weapons is left to individuals. Mateen got hold of assault rifles for his murders because, as we know, it is easy to do so in America. But where it is difficult, infidels could be killed using rocks, knives, clubs or even cars, advised al-Adnani. This has fallen on receptive ears. For instance, in this country [UK] last month Junead Khan, from Luton, was sentenced to 12 years in prison after being convicted of plotting to run over US airmen outside a base and then stab them to death.

It has become customary for those carrying out attacks in the name of Isis to pledge allegiance to the organisation and its leader, the "Caliph" Abu-Bakr al-Baghdadi. This can be done before, during, or after an attack. Mateen pledged allegiance to Isis in a 911 telephone call from the club. Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, the couple who carried out the attack in San Bernardino, California, last December, posted their allegiance on Facebook where it was found after the assault. Elton Simpson, who opened fire on an exhibition of cartoons about the Prophet Mohammed in May last year in Texas, sent a tweet just before he pulled the trigger."

Is Mise,

"But why remove references to Islam in his statements ?

To me this looks a bit strange.:

Yes...

But then ASIO attending every single court appearance of Monis in the year prior to his siege is also "a bit strange"....considering what unfolded after.

Another seemingly unbalanced character well and truly on the radar.

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/aug/19/asio-agents-attended-all-court-dates-of-lindt-cafe-gunman-in-year-before-seige

Is this the worst mass murder of queer people ever?

How many more must die before queer people wake up and see unlimited "diversity" can be our enemy too.

Authorities were well aware and well in advance of the Port Arthur murderer too. He was sane too. Although to suit their agenda some, eg 'gun control' activists, would have him otherwise, to diminish his culpability and blame the gun instead.

There are perfectly adequate laws, but political correctness usually prevents action, even to interview and check the domestic surroundings of the likely offender.

Criminals, including identified likely murderers have rights. Even more so where liberals deem the feral to be one of society's 'victims' and/or multicultural. The liberals see to that and it is one of their foremost concerns. -Where the vulnerable public and victims are forgotten of course, except to be used as cannon-fodder to prop up the dubious factoids of liberals that is always aimed at punishing the good and protecting the bad (who are arguably a valued sector of the liberals voting demographic).

The 'Progressives' aka International Socialists are always on the front foot to deny any unintended negative consequences of their social engineering and policies.